Alternate history: What if Soviets had joined the Axis? (Part 2 of 3)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ต.ค. 2020
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This video series explores an alternate history timeline, one where Soviets join the Axis and fight alongside the Germans. Part 2 covers the events from 1943 to early 1945. Check out the part 1 here: • What if the Soviets ha...
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"Japanese on the islands are cut off until they surrender"
I guess the Pacific Campaign is going to take around 400 years to end at that rate
@Michael Colapietro But... the Japanese will NOT surrender only because of being cut off.
And if the US use half there Ships in the Atlantic, they will neet until late '43 to have a clear maritime advantage
@Michael Colapietro yeah accepted the real top line it took almost 2 years for Japanese forces to surrender after their supply lines were cut off
The U.S. would burn them to ash and invade to free up the chinese to enter the war or at the very least force the ussr to divert million of men to the east
No, US production was absolutely absurd in comparison to the other powers during WWII. By 1945/1946, the US fleet would so outnumber the Axis powers that the Japanese surrender would be ensured.
I mean, in the real world it was ended by the bomb, and in this timeline I expect that will be the case as well, but if you were to just go by naval power, the Japanese couldn't hold long against the US fleet. The US might not have had the manpower and materials to actually invade every place the Japanese held, but they'd have complete naval dominance over all the world's oceans.
@@mosesamaro Germany started developing the atomic bomb first. And Germany had the most advanced technology in nuclear physics. With secure access to heavy water, Germany would have built atomic bombs way earlier than the US. The fall of the UK would be done in 1 week and the US would be left alone and have no choice but to ask for a peace negotiation.
Turkey after decades of war: Finally I can enjoy peac-
*Germans and Russians destroys everyone around him*
Turkey: It's fine... everything is fine...just relax
we are fine, everything is good, we dont need to worry, nothing is wrong, everything is fine.
@@notlogical4016 Turks: at least Atatürk alive, he can easily save us for second ti-
*Atatürk dies in 1938*
Turks: DON'T PANIC, DON'T PANIC
@@kebabinii7577 And It Was Like This That Turkey Became a Lvl 10 Fort
This is fine. I'm ok with the events that are unfolding currently. That's ok, things are going to be ok.
Hey guys wait let me get my pop corn and join the Switzerland watching the movie
At this point in a timeline, spain would have joined the axis for sure, either by will or force. Portugal would fall quickly and even sweden might fall into the axis by choice rather than seeing germany or the soviets invade them
Portugal would likely join the axis as well if spain did, afteral protugal's political sphere was closer to the axis then the allies, irl we stayed neutral but traded to both sides, in this time line i wouldnt be suprised if we had joined the axis, specially if spain joined too
Unlikely that Sweden joined the Axis, more likely they would have dedicated their iron production to the Axis as token to keep themselves out of the war. But Spain would certainly join, more than happy to reunify Gibraltar after the war is over...hell, even Mexico could maybe feel tempted to join the Axis, same as Argentina due to it's high Italian and German population.
Switzerland is impossible to take due to the country is surrounded by dangerous mountain ranges and very few roads leading into the country the Swiss had heavy anti air guns covering the borders to keep German planes out and the very few roads were booby trapped with explosives and weak sections of unstable rocks used to block roads to halt advancing convoys so Switzerland was very much invasion proof back in 1940 when in the real time line Germany failed dozens of times to take the country
@@Niidea1986 Swedish iron ore production will be much less important in this scenario and will not be enough to placate the axis, with the UK almost cut off, the only Swedish hope of maintaining partial independence is that it formally ally itself with the axis, then the fact that both the Germans and the Soviets may not be in agreement about the future of Sweden is an opportunity that Stockholm cannot miss, they can choose the path of Denmark, or be forced and become a second Norway, for me at least the choice is obvious.
Spain was in a civil war at that time but i think Argentina will definitely join Axis
Russia and Germany would be like: Switzerland, Sweden and Turkey - you are next.
Turkey and Spain would have joined Axis at this point..
Turkey is favor the Axis more
@@therock5944 sweden might have joined too
Sweeden have been exporting iron ores to Germany, while Turkey lets the Soviet fleet pass through Constantinople. They are be-friends with the axis but they won't join the war and instead, providing them a bit of resources.
Even Latin America would join the Axis. Unless United States invaded their countries to secure their interests.
When mustache men work together, amazing things can happen 💪
Every good dictator had a glorious mustache
nazbol internatonale
Mario and Luigi entered the chat
@@robertmoore3982 hehe i was waiting for this comment ;)
I mustache you a question.
Russian industry and resources with german engineering would have been deadly.
Soviet engineering was reliable, in larger numbers, and just as good.
@@90skidcultist not true at all
@@villek3722 You would go against history!? Even today, German engineering still has major problems. Quantity beats quality and the Soviets had pretty much both. They never had a chance against the Soviets in real life.
For example, A few "great" tanks vs many good or even okay tanks. The many has a serious advantage. Especially when you can afford to actually lose them.
The Soviets would be the MVP if they team up with the Germans. In both manpower, Army, Airforce, and Resources. The Tech gap would close quickly too. Like it did during the real war. Soviets are just more pragmatic.
@@90skidcultist you are going against history here...all of USSR's tanks were pretty unreliable...there were some decends like t-34 and KV1 but even they werent reliable at all. In other hand Germany had best tanks in the war like panzer IV, Panther and Tiger even tho it wasnt that reliable. Germans also had better fighters and invented first assaultrifles in the world...USSR focused on quantity over quality and it worked well for them. However its nonsense to say that USSR's engineering was better or at same level as German engineering. Also i have no clue what are you talking about saying that German engineering is unreliable atm
@@villek3722 German engineering itself isn't bad but what's bad is the complexity of the german tank itself like Tigers and Panthers.
T-34 while quite unreliable is pretty easy to fix compared to Tigers and Panthers and since so much of T-34s were produced, The crew could just return to the base a hop in another one while that option isn't quite available for the germans per say due to the said complexity and production capability at the time.
And Red airforce while definitely inferior to the Luftwaffe did make the airspace contested for quite a while. Although German planes are clearly superior.
Part 3 UK " In fission we trust "
The issue with that is nukes in the 40s relied on bomber planes and air superiority to enforce their safety and delivery. I also highly doubt either side is going to want to turn Europe/USSR/America/Asia into radioactive wasteland, not to mention you’d need hundreds of 40s style atom bombs to end the war that way. Nukes back then were also extremely limited in their range, and should Germany/USSR hold on to their rocket scientists unlike in our timeline, they could have ICBMs first, even if the US/Britain get a vanilla atom bomb first.
Japan surrendered in WWII because it was surrounded on all side from both the US and the USSR, the nukes just got Hirohito to agree to stop. Wiping out Germany/USSR’s empire is going to require hundreds of atom bombs along with the bombers in effective range to deliver them, really doubt that’s possible. It was possible to do that to the USSR in our timeline because we had western europe as a staging ground, but here? Entirely different scenario.
I can see both sides coming to a truce though in this timeline after the atom bomb hits the scene. Basically, a Cold War in this timeline starts as well.
I doubt the Allies will be able to send any nuclear bombers, German jet fighters with rockets will destroy them.
Also only Germany can somehow deliver nukes if they manage to somehow make the nuke smaller than the one dropped in hiroshima so it will fit their rockets.
@@hanstrimmel4290 yup😄
What the British would bomb? London as retaliation cause by that time Germans and Soviets would taken the South of the island.
What if LUXEMBURG joined the axis oh god
germany not attack the belgium
Oh god then it would be over for everybody 🤣🤣🤣
Dear god, Andorra would be next. London and every American city would practically disappear off the face of the planet.
that would be too much for Churchill and he would hang himself
Then ww2 is over......😂
Someone needs to write a book or something about this alternate timeline. I'm on the edge of my seat!
Love this sort of fiction but hate how authors like Turtledove basically have an epic event not change much at the end of the book/series compared to OTL.
I'm getting worried!
Im actually planning to write a short story about German and Soviet planning session in London in preparation of an attack against United States in 1948.
Check out "Weapons of Choice" trilogy.
Not quite this timeline, its about a US Carrier battlegroup being thrown back in time to WW2 and the shenanigans that ensued.
Very fun read.
meanwhile latin american whistling to itself and looking around.
They have their own war, though: th-cam.com/video/hrXXmWHvbAE/w-d-xo.html
tho brazil and mexico were members of the allied forces irl
I Loved Playing this “Axis & Allies,” 1939 Rules Expansion.
Didn’t United States Produce 62% Iron & 72% Steel during WW 2 years.
Axis and Allies has always been my favorite.
Nope
You get expose by american bias
@@danishkfd Soviet blood , British intelligence and American steel is what won WW2 ~ Joseph Stalin
@@m1a2abram32 i think soviets' industries were fked.
To think German tank design would be vastly different, originally panzer 3 was main battle tank, and panzer 4 was support tank, it was the Russian tanks that made them upgun
This has been my main thought watching this whole thing. The arms race in tank warfare between the soviets and Germans cannot be understated. The massive tanks may have taken longer to come about. But imagine if Hitler didn’t have the manufacturing and logistic difficulties limiting the production of the Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers. Yikes.
@@HiMyNameisAndy91 having learned more in the last two years, not sure there’d be that drastic a change against the west, but also it’s worth remembering that tiger was conceived in 37, it would still be as it was most probably in this
Remember throughout the war Germany spent more resources on its aerospace and naval sector than its army, to fight the west, so Germany’s cash strapping as it were would still exist
@@HiMyNameisAndy91 AND then some insane designer from a Soviet State company comes along and slaps more armour and a bigger gun on top of it.
Imagine this actually happened and we're living in the alternate timeline
the soviets had an army of 10 million alone
@@diegomoreno7760 and without Jews, transgender,blacks and all other minorities
@@zigzag3720 and no Western democracy, capitalism, imperialism, liberalism BS or whatever
Plus a bunch of psychotic, fascist & communist mass-murderers banded together & lead the world?
Yep, definitely sounds like a dream world to me. I just wish that I was born as an Aryan or smth at that time
@@muhammaddzhulfikar2778 If you are born in the USSR the problem wouldn't exist. I think both superpowers would be developed countries (the USSR especially) and it might be worse than our current world but still a nice place to live
@@muhammaddzhulfikar2778 Man, I wish you hadn't been born at all
One error, in the Pacific, cutting off Japanese islands and waiting for them to surrender.
In WW2 the Japanese hardly ever surrendered, and they only started when Japan was losing near the end.
exactly what i thought
They had soldiers still fighting decades later. There's precisely 0 chance that the islands surrender in any reasonable timeframe
Big units would eventually starve off, though.
Exactly and a USA facing this scenario would have been much more willing to absorb losses. The Marines losses in Island hopping would be acceptable and the US would still roll Japan up across the Pacific.
also, don't forget both nuclear programs (american project manhattan and german nuclear program) + the fact that, being allied with soviets would allow germans to get enough fissible material to perform their test and advance in their program (as opposed to real life).
and do not forget about the rocket science advances as well (V2s) wich, all by itself, is more of a terror weapon than an effective one, but combined with the previous point (friendship with USSR [and therefore, maybe a korolev + von braun collaboration?] + acess to enough uranium to make nukes = potential ""spicy"" V2s)
America spent a lot more time and effort than Germany did, though.
Lmao 'Spicy V2' yeah uranium is an amazing spice
anerica would still have produced a uranium pile way before the rest of the world
@@tanostrelok2323 in real life they did, but their program began only after, (and they got more advanced with time, as germany did put an halt to it, as they did not had acess to fissible materials needed for such thing)
so, in an alternate history where germany is friend with USSR (and so, have acess to this sweet sweet uranium) germany isn't hindered in it's advance about nuclear program (and therefore, get it either at approx the same time, or even before the US depending on the amount of ressource they put into this program)
@@GrexTheCrabasitor i highly doubt it, since germany began it"s nuclear program before (and irl, stoped it cuz lack of fissible material)
also, take into account that soviets had spies into the manhattan project (being why they had nukes only two years after the US irl) so, imagine , if a "perfect german-soviet alliance" occured and they decided to collaborate on tech development (adding the fruits of US researchs borrowed by the soviet spies + + the fruit of soviet scientist + the fruit of german scientist who began to work on it before the US began....in such circumstances, the axis would at least have nuclear program at the same time as the US, if not before)
Hitler: Hey Franco remember those war entry terms you wanted?
Franco: (heavy sweating)
Stalin and Mussolini: (snickering in the background)
What does that mean
When the Austrian dude who failed art school & the 5’9 middle eastern born Georgian unite. Amazing things can happen
Not middle eastern Caucasian
Georgia is in south caucasus it is not part of middle east
@@deleteduser1877 Still has a good amount of middle easterners tho
@@crackcbainefl2675 i don't know what you mean Population of Georgia is 86% Georgians and 11% Azerbaijans and armenians Azeris are central asians while armenians maybe are middle easterns
@@deleteduser1877 “Georgian” isn’t a race . It’s just a nationality while most are Caucasian a good amount are from middle eastern back ground. If u ever go to The Georgia capital you’ll see what I mean.
The two mustaches.
It might just be me but I don't think the scaling of production and economy is as high as it should be for the axis. Perhaps they don't have as much urgency, but the fact that they have significantly more resources and their factories aren't under threat should mean their production will be significantly higher, same with their research, meaning that they'd have more advanced weapons earlier
He mentions how Germany and soviets don’t have shipbuilding experience or any good designs, but he must’ve forgot they were allied with the most advanced shipbuilding nation in existence at that time.
It wouldn’t be a stretch to think Japan would share some knowledge with them.
yeah the japanese navy at the time were more advanced than the royal navy.@@charles8769
What I think is more unrealistic is that even with German & Soviet economies, they still would not have matched a US + British Empire production at a full war footing.
@@angliccivilization1346 haha, no. The data actually shows that the axis+USSR would have out produced the allies in every category, minus naval assets.
However that's in the reality where Germany sent half it's resources to the eastern front, a Germany with access to Soviet resources and a Soviet union with access to German tech which was superior to anything the axis had would have absolutely demolished the British. They would have taken all of Europe and the middle east easily, then bombed the UK until there wasn't a city standing, then taken it by Force.
Perhaps an invasion of the US might have been off the table, but the US would have had to sign some sort of peace agreement because they certainly had no hope of invading a fortified German Europe which wasn't anywhere near exhausted.
@@antimatter4733 i think you forgot that there is a small gap in Alaska and sovit and that can each to usa main land there would be 1 font in canada also where aixs get canada and fight in till american border.
Personally I think that you're being a bit too optimistic on the Asia front. As the map stands Australia would be effectively cut off from foreign supply lines and without the industry or manpower to hold off Japan on our own we'd be pretty much out of the fight.
Did Australia have something worthwhile for Japanese in 1940s? Sure, if they focused just on Australia, they could get it. But their main objective was resources like oil or food. And if they could get those closer, like in south east Asia, it wouldn’t be good for strategy to stretch their supply lines.
Aussies would destroy any Japanese ground invasion of their country.
@@keelyleilani1326 Not likely in the real timeline on this one even more...
@@alvaro701 the nightmarish creatures who live their would probably be enough to scare the Japanese away. That's partially a joke, but then again who knows?
@@stafer3 Australia had and still has vast amounts of natural resources the main being good quality Iron (which Japan was having a hard time getting a hold of), natural gas, and well established crop and livestock farms. If Japan thought they could make a move against us they would've
Where is part 3?
if soviets attacked british india, they would had great support from indian population and "indian national army"
not if britain played their cards right, another invasion by a foreign power might of kept the Indians thinking about the lesser of two evils.
I agree, also remember india sent nearly 2 million troops for European front ( hoping this will later free us from british & because gandhi/nehru were in bed with british) but if Soviets attacked India we would have actually helped soviets
Lal salaam comrades
I'm not so sure the Indians would've wanted to trade a Western colonial power for a communist occupation. It's possible, and I'm sure there would be communist insurrectionists eagre to join forces with the Soviets to fight the capitalist imperialism of the British. But if anything a Soviet invasion of British India would've been incredibly divisive for the Indian people. As things were during the war in the real timeline the people of India were mostly supportive of the Allied war effort.
@@someguy3766 we Technically didnt support allies or anyone, gandhi nehru fooled indians into believing this will get us freedom and made Indians join the british army.
While churchill was busy killing more than 4 million people in bengal ( a province of british india) by creating a famine and taking all the food away from producers to europe
Part 3: both sides develop nuclear weapons and new cold war featuring Germany and Soviet union vs. America and Britain
One big factor in the pacific is when US subs got working torpedoes. They had sunk a major fraction of all ships sunk by US. A spread out Jaoan would be vulnerable to fleets of subs with working decriotion systems.
There would be no battle of Midaway. The call for decisive battle was only do to Japan having too few recources to outlast the USA, with all of east asia and traid between the soviets and germans they would not be lacking recources and thus would wait for the Americans to come to them.
Germany and Russia together= Unstoppable!
Not after being nuked.
Well I bet next week they fail to take Britain and end up getting nuked and make peace
@@defresurrection nukes aren’t that effective, a tiny island like japan could withstand two nukes and the only reason they surrendered is because they knew the war was lost, the U.S would maybe just have enough leverage during the peace conference and could keep the British independent
@@galaxc8462 Nukes are not psychologically effective? A lot of different angles in warfare.
@@defresurrection are you trying to say it is or it isn’t?
I love Binkov! He inspired my sci-fi/futurist channel!!
Covert Cabal and Binkov uploading 1 minute apart 😍 - it’s a good day
I think they are friends
Covert cabal is basically propaganda
@@extremeusace4189 propaganda...for who exactly?
@@extremeusace4189 for who exactly? I've seen his videos praising both American and Russian weapons
This is a rather comprehensive video, realistic and well documented, good work comarade.
@@Mmjk_12 Is a thought exercise based on a potential scenario, of course there is a near infinite number of posible variations, the author of the video picked one based on the potential of a USSR/Nazi alliance which was consider at some point by certain key figures in the third reich and historical figures.
And is for entertainment purposes.
The Italians might as well not exist in this scenario! Realistically Italy would have been given charge of the whole of the Levant, the Germans didn't want to hold all that territory themselves and Italy had ambitions in that part of the world. Ethiopia may not even have fallen in 1941 and they would have pushed into Sudan and East Africa. With the Suez Canal in Axis hands Italy would be connecting with the red sea and with German and Soviet help, push into the Indian ocean. India would be invaded from two sides in this scenario. Three if you count a possible Balochi orAfghan land invasion for the Soviet. They would have implemented their scorched earth policy in 1940 and caused multiple famines in both Eastern and Western india, but the army would have been reorganized to put up a stiff fight around India's mountainous borders. The Indian ocean however, would have fallen to the Axis once Italy took back it's East African colonies.
I wouldn't put such high hopes on the Italians. It is unlikely that they would have had time to break through the corridor to their units trapped in East Africa before they were destroyed by the British. In addition, it would have been easier for the Germans and Soviets to invade India themselves through Afghanistan (in reality, the Germans had plans to carry out a coup there similar to the one that actually occurred in Iraq and the threat of which existed in Iran), as well as to use diplomatic pressure on the Saudis and troops to capture air and sea bases in Arabia.
The Italians could probably draw back some of the British and American forces, but the main work would still be done by the Germans and the Soviets.
Netaji's Azad Hind Force already allied with Japanese force in trying to liberate India from British occupation at that time. The Brown map(axis held territory) shown in Burma was actually Azad Hind force fighting the Brit forces in the Jungle with Japanese support. So thats already there in real timeline.
I believe the Italians would have been most useful as occupation forces once an area was conquered. I don't see them as the tip of the Spear of anything.
The italians didn’t had enough pasta supplies for that time to get strong.
Hitler found inspiration in Mussolini, and he greatly admired the Roman Empire; to such an extent that Nazi architecture, customs, rituals and symbols were all based upon Ancient Rome. Those are the only reasons Hitler allied with Italy, it was a Romantic alliance, he knew Italy offered nothing militarily. In the end, that cost Germany.
Hands down the best warfare channel on TH-cam
TiK
Wth man. I was waiting for these videos and now there is another one? Dude plz you should make the video long but keep them in 2 episodes plz. Huge fan of your work
Cant wait for part 3
Now there's a scenario I can't recreate in Hearts Of Iron III...
ew, IV is better.
you can in hearts of iron IV though
You can do unholy alliance in hoi3
Hey Mr. Bink, could you do a video on the quad? I know how much you love topical content :/
Keep up the great stuff
Awesome video!
Binkov I love you
Pretty sure in this scenario Spain would have already jumped in and grabbed Gibraltar
Great job!!!
Have a nice Mr Binkov..still watching your documentaries.
Even though I like this scenario and the channel in general, I have still a few remarks that I think put different perspective.
1) Battle of Midway and Pacific in general was fought with carriers, marines and submarines. These type of units are neither really transfarable to Atlantic (Panama strait is not suitable for carriers) nor are used in the scenario. Considering that Midway was won thanks to breaking Japan naval codes I do not understand how they could lose it in this timeline.
2) To my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) New Guinea was held mainly by Australians and US involvement was only about contributing air power. I believe that this fact would change the outcome even if it was only about holding longer and being thorn in Japanese side and opening new options for Allies.
3) Even though USSR and Germany are allies they are still nazis and communists and thus authoritarian regimes who have dubious track record when it comes competent leaders at best. Stalin would never be forced to face reality and would remain the paranoid maniac we know and love and therefore there would be more purges against ambitious officers and free thinkers. I would give someone like Zhukov maybe 2 years before being killed. Hitler would not fare better not to mention his irrational fear of "Jewish" science. So little to no support for atomic program would remain.
4) Bletchly park would still be operational. Conisdering the number of Uboats in Atlantic in alternative timeline. Getting Enigma encryption book would be easier.
5) Not to mention that the number of submarines would be so great according to this, that Allies would just have to blindly shoot into water and would have 50/50 chance that they hit (extravaggation I admit but still).
6) Italian navy would still be severly damaged by Cunnigham at Tarranto in 1940 plus Italian navy was never designed for open sea. Lack of industrial base would meant that any changes would take significantly longer.
7) Most Soviet and German production methods and new types of vehicles came because of their confrontation. Soviet basically abandon all tank design excluding T-34 and KV-1 that were meant to last only 3 months on the and because of this uniformity in production they could get into such ridiculous numbers. This approach would not be needed and production would be slower. Germany big cats (panther, Tiger) were rushed as response to Soviets, this would meant that they would took longer to deploy in this timeline. It is my belief that the battle of Morocco would be with Pz. III and IV, not against Panthers which would again help Allies in the long run because these tanks are killable more easily (and would be attackers which again according to Sun Tzu you need 3:1 adavantage when attacker).
8) German High command would remain the same, which means that Goring's attitude of not wanting to play with Navy would remain and the coordination of these to branches would still be terrible.
The end, hopefully I did not make somewhere terrible mistake.
Don't forget, he's putting the battle of Morocco in 1945. The Germans and Soviets were secretly developing armoured designs with one another pre war and they'd have their own armoured experience from fighting the Allies, which would likely lead to new big tanks as Hitler loved.
Totally agreed ! I have wargamed alternative histories using a set of commercial board game (War At Sea / Victory in the Pacific, both by 70s game company Avalon Hill) and used known figures for global production figures and in all of my scenarios where the UK falls, the USSR stays neutral etc Germany folds just 1-2 years later than normal. The US actually SHUT down their production at the end of 1944, stopping work on two extra Iowa class BBs and all 5 of the Montanas, they also stopped work on over half a dozen other fleet CVs and slowed down designed development of the (eventually post war) Midway class. I also don't think that anything the Germans could throw up against US/British airpower would do squat against round the clock B-29 and eventually B-36 raids, once every 10th plane started dropping a 20 kilotonne nuke all bets would be off as the Ruhr would be radioactive glass within 6 weeks. The fact is that after the first 6 months every war comes down to pure production vs production and the US, with over HALF of the ENTIRE PLANET'S global output as of 1945, was NEVER going to lose no matter what.
Excellent response and valid points.
Shall I indicate my few slight objections.
On point number 1: the Pacific campaign would perhaps evolve the same way it did in reality, just that the probability that there would be less forces deployed by US Pacific command is in relation to the pressing needs of the European theater. Also in consideration is the Japanese strategy probably more focused on pushing the British out of Burma and India in conjunction with Axis advances in Central Asia.
3) This scenario should take Hitler and the whole nazi anti-Jewish craze out of the equation as it would have been almost impossible to fight alongside the Soviet Union while scolding paragraphs out of Mein Kampf.
4) Bletchley Park would be working around, but probably infiltrated by Soviet double agents like Jon Cairncross as it happened in real life.
7) The upgunned Panzer IVs would have been more than sufficient in dealing with Sherman and Matildas even if slightly inferior. But it is doubtful this 1938 vintage tank would have stayed the backbone of Panzer armies for long, more likely being slowly replaced as the main battle tank by 1943 with a mixmash of Russian and German design concepts using higher mobility and more adequate firepower, probably a simplified and lighter Panther. Tiger was also to be seen as "breakthrough panzer" type was already in order by 1941. T-34s would pretty much remain the backbone with perhaps some more emphasis on expensive KV-1s into reaching the standards of its successor, the KV-85 or even the IS tanks (which also would have been lighter).
like I feel like binkov handicapped the allies in order to make it a more interesting scenario for the axis/soviets
@@rags417 agreed, one element that people tend to underestimate is how powerful and oppressive the allied bombing campaigns were, one of the reasons the german navy performed the channel dash was because the british airforce had gotten to a point where they were able to basically use german battleships as bomb practice in harbor and this was in 1942 before the US had gotten heavily involved in the european air war
The Woflenstein the New Order would happen.
But in the Wolfenstein Universe, Germans successfully invaded USSR
@@mike.mentzer_enjoyer Well, yes.
@@mike.mentzer_enjoyer Betrayal for Lebensraum
So basically 1984.....
USA and Britain with their colonies would be Oceania
Germany and USSR could be Eurasia
and Japan (if China is conquered) would be Eastasia . Note :Japan was solely concerned with self expansion at that time
Even the border lines match
Or "I have no mouth and i must scream"
All warring allies will develop AI to fight each other. The AI will know nothing but conflict and hatred, hence they eradicate humanity out of pure hatred but chose a few people to be tortured forever.
This is scary as fuk
I Love these videos!
Here comes the bomb.
@Joseph Li Considering the US war plan for an early war with the Soviet Union was 'nuke every city between Berlin and the Urals' I don't think the Americans would care too much about civilian casualties tbh.
@Joseph Li That's because the war ended.
I'd imagine having the war teetering on the edge of defeat would change the equation quite a bit.
@Joseph Li The US had two in 1945. By the time of the Berlin Airlift they had enough to nuke every major city on the way to the Urals and were intent on doing so if they had to fight the Russians because they knew they'd lose a land war. They bombed every major city in Germany and Japan to the ground in the closing months of the war. The United States wasn't even remotely concerned about bombing civilians in WW2 and regularly did so. The tendency to become skittish about civilian casualties is more of a modern thing for the US military and even then it's usually only the officers.
As to nuclear weapons: the blast is not what kills you. The blast of a nuclear bomb is relatively small. The fallout is what kills you and the fallout of a single nuclear bomb would have been enough to kill everyone in central Moscow and either seriously injure or cause long term harm to everyone in Greater Moscow. All the electronics for miles would also be fried, meaning all of the phone lines and radio towers that were the hub of Soviet communications all go down. The centre of the Soviet train network goes pop. The Soviet government dies in the explosion or die shortly after they come outside to see what the damage is.
@Joseph Li Since when did the US ever care about war crimes? we don't care about them now, why would it be any different then against ACTUAL threats ?
@Joseph Li 1. Explosively yes they can be, but modern nuclear bombs are focused on limiting radiation harm. Older ones didn't at all. The fallout of a bomb in the 40s was significantly worse than a modern one and even then the explosive mass of an old one would be more than enough. The explosive capacity of modern weapons comes less from necessity and more from the fact they realised a fair easy way to get a compounding yield increase - Tsar Bomba is the Soviet experimentation with said yield increases but Tsar Bomba wasn't anywhere near as far as they could go.
2. There were only about a couple dozen major cities between Berlin and the Urals and most of those were way smaller than you think they were.
3. You don't need to destroy entire cities to destroy most everything of import in a city. London is absurdly huge compared to Eastern European cities of the time but everything in London of value, as with Moscow, Kiev, and so on, is within an area of about a square mile.
4. Radiation terror is more of a modern thing. Back them they just didn't know the danger of large amounts of radiation and they absolutely didn't know radiation could or would move.
You should do a series on War Plan Red, aka The War With The Red Empire, or in otherwords, a late 1930s clash between the US and the British Empire. It should be noted the Nazis made the US think they would back America, but really planned to back the Brits. Likewise, the moderately Socialistic regime in the US at the time was friendly with the Soviets, though the Soviets might have found it to be more strategically viable to back the Empire. Interestingly, I think the Japanese, who opposed European colonialism in Asia might actually have sided with the US, The US was backing down voluntarily from it's own colonial ambitions after losing taste for it in the aftermath of the Philippine Insurrection, which was basically the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to US expansion and never ending counter-insurgencies against natives and regional separatists.
A war between the US, Japan, the British Empire, and the Soviet Union would be interesting to explore. I think eventually the Naval situation would turn to America and Japan's favor, but historians figured that the Brits would win at sea.
Good scenario. 👌👍✌🙏
Interesting thought experiment!
The ME-262 was already way ahead of it's time when it was rushed into service. If anything, the prorotype models would be more numerous before a true production model could be selected. One big upside is easier access to Turkish Chromium, which the Allies bought in the real timeline to deny it to Germany. If Turkey was surounded, they would have to sell to Germans and Soviets or face invasion. So when the production model was ready, it would be of higher quality.
This really puts into perspective the favorable geopolitical conditions that allowed the United States to become a superpower after WWII in the real timeline.
Just to start off I love the channel and the production quality. Always a joy to watch. Unfortunately this series seems overly pessimistic to me. Japan was already well beyond its ability to supply itself historically, pushing further to threaten Australian supply lines would not have been possible, or allowed by the Allies. Likewise, the Japanese ability to exploit the resources gained from Indonesia and elsewhere was largely neutralized by the most successful submarine campaign in history. Japan has no realistic ability to mount anything but a defensive campaign from 1942 onward. By the same token, the consistent reference to “because resources were devoted to the Atlantic” seems overly simplistic to me. The pacific was decided by fleet carriers, and submarines, which are broadly unnecessary in the Atlantic. The forces that matter would no doubt have remained in the pacific. One big question I have is what U.S. Army and Marine forces are doing in these years? If they reduced their already modest presence in the pacific to reinforce the Atlantic, then where are they needed? I find it hard to believe that the entire Army Ground Forces would be deployed to Morocco and then crushed by Axis expeditionary forces.
yeah, i also thought that, with the only combat zone in the atlantic for ground forces being morroco and opperation torch, you would think the allies would be pushing as hard as they can, and eventually just pure numbers in submarines would work less effectively as time went on, so there would need to either be huge commitments into sumbmarine tech on the axis side, or a miracle, otherwise morroco probably wouldn't fall.
This whole scenario is a mess if we're being blunt. It's interesting for a general viewer but for WW2 buffs or those with degrees in WW2 history it doesn't hold up - and that's even if you accept its original premise. It's got some great little details that are oft forgotten, such as how Germany's mobilisation efforts were atrocious in the early war, but it makes so many mistakes by pushing a broad brush over details that were actually pivotal.
@@notlogical4016 More submarines just means the Canadians would shift more of their production goals towards ASW efforts and the American destroyers would have had slightly too much fun in the North Atlantic when they showed up to the war even with Admiral King being an Anglophobic moron.
@@laurie1183 that’s what I was trying to say, more submarines would be effective up to a certain point, and then the axis would be investing too much into ineffective ships that would get blown up as soon as they leave the harbor.
@@laurie1183 Right. Admittedly this is a more ambitious project than the channel has put out in the past, and has a lot more places to poke holes, since they’re trying to totally recreate an alternate version of history’s largest and best studied conflict. So I want to give some leeway, but I think it would have been better to acknowledge how little it’s possible to guess. This channel has posed hypothetical conflicts much simpler than this and said “after the first year or two we can’t predict, because too much could change” yet in this case they want to rush through ten years and create a specific probable timeline. This project is unfortunately overly ambitious.
sweet part 2
There was a part of warplan gold that I believe would be implemented in this timeline and that's the use of chemical weapons,
I like how the ad says its not a paid promotion. I doubt my guys simping for a mobile game if we wasn't getting something green.
Finally came at the right time,
Something you've overlooked in this is the Allied advances in anti-submarine warfare. By 1944 Axis subs were the hunted rather than the hunters.
Good videos!
Так держать!
I like how you completely ignore politics in your make believe world
and he acts like the USN doesn't really exist for any other purpose than to taxi goods from the US to the UK lol
Ghastly_Grinner he also missed the atomic bomb, wonder how Berlin, Moscow, Rome and any countries that started to join the axis forces would have thought of that, I don't think he actually understands the power of the USN and Royal Navy also with the production power America had in ww2.
@@carpediem3391 Yeah eastern europeans dont really understand naval matters honestly I dont know why in this scenario the US hasn't just fortified the UK and focused on flattening the Japanese once they are dealt with the war is basically over
Ghastly_Grinner I think he also forgot about the tons of equipment that America sent to Russia as lend lease which would have never got to them, I also get the impression he never grasped how much the fascists hated the Marxists.
@@carpediem3391 It's all hypothetical tho he covered that in the first video
me when I see the video: finally what a relief
Me. At the end :WUT IS GOING ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This some is badass alternate history , imagine if this is the real outcome .
Well Brexit would have been needed lol
Well then I’d be lucky that I’m Italian and my country is on the winning side 🤣🤣 and there’s nothing I could do
@@theonewhodoesntcringe4048 tbf Italy was always on the winning side..
Eventually.
Well , I'd be dead coz Hitler hated people of colour , lol.
@@duncan3707 Well I would also be deador enslaved if this is the real timeline because the Japanese Empire colonized my country .
blessed timeline 😊
At the end of the war No EU only US (UK basically a client state of the US like in our time line) Germany and USSR
@@Ghastly_Grinner Both the USSR and Germany would have eventually collapsed, just later then in our timeline
if the soviet union joined the axis, spain would also join happily, this was practically happening, but frank began to realize that germany was not going to win. but with the soviet union the situation would be different. thus they invaded portugal and took control of the Portuguese tungsten reserves, the colonies, mainly angola and timor, with oil and gibraltar. it also includes the canaries and the azores, which would be used as a basis for the control of the atlantic and north africa in the spanish provinces in the north of morocco.
What about the vichy france navy? They did have an aircraft carrier stationed at Martinique island if i remember. I don't think de gaule free french movement will be able to exist in this timeline.
Off topic: a simpler alternate history.
What if in _"the prime timeline"_ everything was the same, except Japan didn't bother with building Yamato style battleships (which were a waste of resources and didn't inflict much damage) but instead diverted all the resources and personal that were used into building and equipping extra Aircraft carriers.
There were times when just a few extra carriers [Midway, and a few other battles] would have changed the course of the battle.
And not only were the Battleships not effective in combat, they kept trying up more resources in repairs.
I still think Japan would have only further delayed the Americans from gaining supremacy in the Pacific.
@@Zen-sx5io True, but they may have beaten back the US to its mainland until a new fleet could be built and the US could out build the Japanese.
And that would have given the Japanese far more free reign in the Pacific and possibly successfully get a foothold in Australia.
Australia only managed to stop the Japanese in PNG and it was a close thing, the Australians used _unconventional tactics_ as they were a second tier force - the regular army having been sent off to help the British in the Middle East and Europe.
[grandad was officer in PNG, so it's a point of interest].
The Japanese would have had access to a lot more resources once they got a stranglehold on South East Asia.
And America would have been focused on "save Australia" (fellow White English speaking people!) first.
It would have been a far more protracted war, possibly fought inside Australia - there were _"rumoured"_ plans drawn up called the *Brisbane line* to abandon everything North of there.
McArthur mentioned it in a speech.
The Pacific war did involve a number of lucky breaks for the US, without them it could have carried on for years afterwards (until full scale nuking).
What if Spain Joined the Aixs??? 🇪🇸🇮🇹🇯🇵🇩🇪
Probably Axis would loose faster..
Just my guess..
Spain was pretty weak after its recent civil war and not only that but Franco absolutely abhorred Communism and had just fought a civil war over it and atheism in Spain. He also didn't particularly get on well with Hitler and thought his antisemitic laws were ridiculous. Spain even allowed Jewish refugees to stay there to escape the Germans.
In this timeline seems likely to happen, once the straight is closed and no allies can go close to the península.
It would have needed resources from the axis, in exchange of a few thousand veteran soldiers and likely bases in Canarias and west coast Spain and Portugal. Assuming that Portugal follow Spain or can be easily overrun by the axis powers.
Not that but Spain joining the allies seems more interesting in this scenario at hand
not much they just gain some resources there's a reason they where neutral
i wouldnt be surprised if in Binkov's universe(this actual series) the axis would use votka alimented flamethrowers 🤣
Yeeeaaaaaah
why did the japanese attck when they could have gotten fuel from the soviets?
Now I want to play hoi4 but the main problem is
I don't have a pc, mine broke 2 years ago
Plus the worst part was I remember my parents saying to me "this will be your last pc"
Binkov: Could you do China vs.Vietnam in the South China Sea next?
Its a crime against alt-history that this video is only 10 minutes long!
Scary fact is, this was SOOOOO close to happening
It wasnt. It was Hitlers plan from the beginning to conquer russia and opress its people.
@@riesenfliegefly7139 my point Is that the Soviets asked to join the Axis. All Hitler had to do is say yes, then backstab Soviets.
@@DarkPyrox99 At that point he would barely be able to. Both sides would be mixed up, drown from the war against the allies, but also had forces still ready to attack each other. He could maybe get an edge in an Order-66 like Move. But chances of defeating the soviets at that point would be even more unlikely then defeating them in the scenerio that actually happened.
@@riesenfliegefly7139 I see, I'll look into it some more. Thanks for the info though.
2:26 The Graf Zeppelin was not small at all. It was just as big or even bigger than Allied designs.
I guess in part 3 we will see if Nuke will turn everything around
Imagine talking about naval power and ignoring the Italian fleet.
where is third part
I love this guy
It would be interesting to examine what might have happened to the Soviet Union post WW2 if they never developed nuclear weapons. Might they have been on the receiving end of being nuked?
do you think that France, Spain and Portugal would join the Axis with Britain being close to collapsing?
You're ignoring changes in the Asian side of the war - there is no Russian threat for Japan to worry about and they may not attack the US - focusing instead on Asian expansion. Both Japan and Germany would be vastly stronger because of Russian oil. I don't see the US entering the war as quickly - if at all. Britain would have fallen far more quickly.
So a resounding axis victory with extra steps
@Binkov's Battlegrounds capital ships are considered to be battlecruisers aircraft carriers and battleships
It would be inevitable that the Axis/Soviets would invade England, as their land forces in Europe would be huge and the combined airforces would be enough to drive the Royal Navy away from southern England, even without long range fighters or very good bombers in 1942-43. I think once all of Europe and Asia fell to the land armies, and England was invaded, the U.S. would be forced to agree to peace terms. The U.S. fleet and airforce plus the remnants of the RN in Canada would be enough to defend from the weak Axis/Soviet surface fleets as the Axis couldn't even field multiple carriers until after 1945, and the Soviets had nothing to speak of as far as modern BB's and no CV's in 1942. The U.S. would use it's huge modern airforce and fleet as a defensive deterrent, plus the atomic bombs, and a peace would be settled in 1946 or else the Axis risk being nuked multiple times by long range bombers. The Axis would not be in a position to invade the U.S. until the early 50's when they had large jet fleets and sufficient carriers to actually go on the offensive. The Axis subs would be less useful with Britain and Australia knocked out, and Allied ASW would be insanely good in 1945-1946 and operating right off the east and west coast of the U.S. Keep in mind the Axis would have to run the Allied sub gauntlet if they tried to cross the ocean. The Axis would win the European war but the U.S. would remain in the western Hemisphere.
And then, how long would that stalemate last?
U.S. would remain in the western Hemisphere is most likely, probably supporting Brazil against combined Argentinian forces.
In 1946, the US did not have enough atomic bombs to cause any significant damage to such a vast territory. And by 1946, the Soviets already had their own A-bomb. Together with the Germans, they would quickly invent a means of delivery: aircraft and missiles. In reality, Soviet military power ensured parity with the US shortly after WWII. And if it were reinforced by German military power and production resources, that would be a very formidable and overwhelming force.
ME RIlizing this was made today : wowwwwwww
I feel like the Manhattan project would be more effective in this timeline and that a bomb may be dropped on Hamburg or Frankfurt in 1946, if the allies get the air superiority
Which is a really big if
Would the USSR have "persuaded" Turkey to let its fleet out by this point?
This is super interesting! And quiet logical too, supported by real-life statistics.
Personally rooting for them pesky totalitarians, but realizing they most likely lose in the end.
What about the Italian Navy though?
nice
When Germany captures Gibraltar
*- Regia Marina has joined to the atlantic theater*
He literally ignored the Regia Marina. Thats really not professional.
It is incorrect to state that German Carriers were smaller. Smaller airgroup was caused by Goring's meddling and rules being forced upon the Kriegsmarine. The Graf Zeppelin however had hangar size larger than the USS Enterprise. Please check proper sources about German warships. - Einziger deutscher Flugzeugtrager Graf Zeppelin by Ulrich H.-J. Israel
And that is not mentioning the fact that there were various conversion projects, the fact that US navy was built for pacific conditions and NOT the Atlantic ones and that US airgroups would have to be smaller in the Atlantic, or the fact that in the Atlantic fleet size mattered much, much less. Or the fact that land based aircraft would take part in the battle. Not to mention how screwed the Brits would be by loss of Suez.
I just cannot take this video seriously.
Indeed, the loss of Suez breaks the British in two, literally. The rest of the battle would amount to the US trying to fend off its own backyard or sue for peace. No matter what the US fanboys may think.
@@lape2002 To be honest there is much more than that. Ripple effect of the initial setting goes into the first video too. The Brits even had plans for bombing soviet oilfields, there was the whole Iraq incident etc. There are so many things which would change which were just ignored. Next thing is... Seriously? Britain was on the verge of collapse, being choked by the Kriegsmarine and constant bombing. With soviet support and higher production capacity... Nope. I just don't see how Britain wouldn't fall. Even with US help that wouldn't be enough. It seems Binkov forgot that Germans proven to be capable of building a major fleet in WW1.
Do part 3.This time US joins the axis with the USSR renaming the gang"Unholy Alliance"
Might as well just make a video that is "what if every country joined the axis"
If US joins the Axis, we simply call it "The winning side".
Not sure the Germans would keep working on their carriers in this timeline from a logical standpoint as the main reason they stopped building them wasn't just that their resources were needed elsewhere. It was largely that after the fall of France the Germans along with their Italian allies had land airbases that could range almost anywhere in Europe, the UK, and North Africa making building carriers completely unnecessary.
The only reason they might continue building them would be to sneak them out into the mid Atlantic but even then given Allied surface naval superiority even before the US joined that would be a huge risk with dubious rewards when submarines could likely achieve the same at far less risk of lives and resources.
Part 3 for this been deleted?
Love this series!
And Binkov didn't even talk about atomic bombs yet 😁
He better talk about them
the A-bombs of the 1940s are the most overrated weapons ever. Definitely no game changers in this scenario.
Don’t encourage the Nazbols
Who are they?
@@xavierlauzac5922 THE LEGION. LONG LIVE NAZBOL GANG. PRAISE DELIGIANNIS! PRAISE HOXHA!
@@Latrine1999 that sounds ominous, but tell me more.
@@xavierlauzac5922 a weird ideology that became a meme
@@xavierlauzac5922 The racism of the nazis but with communism.
No part 3?
good
Why wouldn't the Pacific War go historically, if not faster? If the US isn't sending troops to Europe for D Day that's more they can send to the Pacific. And the US Navy would overwhelm the IJN eventually
That's assuming the Japanese invade Pearl Harbor and don't simply focus on crushing all of Asia. Japanese would have Russian oil.
Imagine what japan could build with natural resources from russia.
It always makes me laugh that Japan was in the process of losing a war in China so their "Brilliant" idea on how to turn the situation around was to...pick a fight with the only major that was undamaged by the war and could actually destroy them
Japan was struggling for oil because of the oil embargo placed on them by the US. They knew Indonesia had oil, but they were controlled by the Dutch and the Philippines were controlled by the US and could threaten their supply lines at any moment. Japan believed that if they attacked the Dutch the US would attack them anyway, and so they were like "we may as well get the first shot off and try and do as much damage as possible".
@@Sir_Budginton Yes I understand their silly ass thinking but it would be like if i was fighting a bigger man and barely holding my own i have a broken nose busted up knuckles lost teeth and possibly an ear then a bigger stronger man is walking down the street with his wife and for some reason I decide to smack her titties
Japan wasn't losing the war in China. Dude read a history book. Before the Americans entered the war, the Chinese hadn't come close to driven Japan off the continent.
@@keitht24 LMFAO China had ground the Japanese into paste no matter what the Japanese could do they had no hope of winning against china they lost hundreds of thousands of men in China before the US even entered the war the Japanese were stuck they had a tiger by the tail
@@Ghastly_Grinner what strategical victories did the Chinese gain before everybody start the oil embargo against Japan ? why did you think Japanese would be grounded into paste ?
I like your assessment of aptitude and it’s effect on production. Also, you hinted at intrafactional trust. Allies had it. Axis never trusted each other and Russia would be no exception.
Good point, the Axis were not as solid of an Alliance as the Allies were.
German plus Soviet air power, toss in dive bombers and more torpedo bombers and you don't need to contest the high seas. The UK is an unsinkable carrier, so is France and Belgium.