I'm not sure if they should have been made but I still bought all of them because they're great picks. They're made from government steel and are half the price of Peterson's basic plastic handle picks.
@@LockNoob On top of that, their lifeless quarry can be seen gruesomely impaled on sharp objects like twigs and barbed wire throughout the southern United States and northern Canada, where Loggerhead Shrikes and Northern Shrikes range, respectively. (The Loggerhead population has declined by more than 80 percent since the 1960s, possibly due to pesticides killing their insect prey.) This macabre behavior, which is not a Game of Thrones-esque warning to other birds but a form of food storage, led Wired to declare the Loggerhead Shrike “by far the most metal of birds.” The editorial staff of Audubon are inclined to agree.
Maybe Mr. Peterson should make his company more innovative, and stop wayyyy overcharging for the ideas of others. Peterson for picks, is like Benchmade for knives..
When you believe Pick "reach and depth" are your intellectual property, you're drawing a very long bow. It's so absurd it's hilarious, particularly given the fact Peterson have been making knockoffs of Raimundos Bogota for years. Good on you for grabbing the horns of the Peterson Bull Ash. Now just hang on with both hands, you could be in for a wild ride.
You may note how careful i was with my words there Tipene - made very sure i didn’t make any accusations that Peterson copied anyone, only that there were very strong resemblances. I also made sure I used the words they have on their own website. But yes, reach and depth are not things you can patent for lock picks really. It all just leaves you feeling a little confused really
Oh, I’ll say. You are exactly right. It’s pure chicanery. Peterson is lying. Or doing this all tongue-in-cheek by agreement with other manufacturers. Probably dreamed up over several pints of beer. If they were serious, and honest about this, it would all be taken care of by lawyers (barristers). Since that never happened, we are left to assume that Peterson believes two wrongs makes a right, or they are simply jealous of other manufacturers who make better products at better prices.
Phil Biggersraff Sparrows has been producing their lunatic, Attila and the others long before Peterson came out with these. To me it looks like Peterson said, “Hey! Sparrows is making pieces of flat metal with bent tips just like we are! They can’t get away with that! We will show them! We will copy their copy of our pieces of flat metal with bent tips!” Yeah, Peterson might make some good picks. But Sparrows makes some nice picks too. You might be able to drag them for their “gimmicky” marketing. But it’s marketing. They are at least willing to try and do new things for lockpickers that no one else is doing. Their practice lock set is great and affordable. Their revolver practice lock is affordable. Their reload kit is a great deal. They have put into production tools and picks that lock pickers have designed. Peterson..... not so much. Plus Peterson charges an arm and a leg for everything they sell. I’ll take Sparrows prices and their “gimmicky” marketing over Peterson’s prices and their stodgy elitist marketing any day of the week. I own a lot of picks from multiple makers. Southord, Southern Specialties, Law Lock Tools, Sparrows and a few others. What I don’t own are Peterson picks or Multipicks for that matter. To me, they just aren’t worth the money. They won’t make me a better picker and I can pick the same locks with a cheaper pick and the cheaper pick will last me just as long. Plus, I don’t feel bad about modifying a cheaper pick if I need to. My Southern Specialties hook picks were purchased just for modifications. They make great pick sets by the way. They aren’t that expensive and they are nicely finished. Their jack knife lock pick is one of the best deals out there by the way. You can even specify which picks you want it to have when you order it.
This is akin to me claiming a copyright on a hammer or a 9/16 open end wrench. They need to get over themselves and just be thankful people give them ridiculous amounts of money (guilty) for tin tools that cost them pennies.
Absolutely. If their picks weren't my first preference (multipick would be, but the shipping and price is hard to swallow), I would not deal with them at all. I recently realized they sent me a wrong pick of a profile I do not like (hook 5). Instead of dealing with them I attempted to alter the pick to a shape I would have rather had. Not liking my adjustment I clipped the tip off to use the pick for tubular locks. When I was about to place another order I let them know my dilemma so they could send me the correct one without them having to cover the shipping cost. I admit it was dumb of me not to address the issue immediately and not have proper evidence (as I had rendered it impossible to discern), but after spending a couple hundred dollars with them already they absolutely GRILLED ME about it. They accused me of suspicious activity over an $8 pick! Long winded and late response but I share your sentiment. Terrible customer service.
I've never used Peterson picks, but having heard so many horror stories about their attitude over the years, I honestly have no interest in doing business with them. Sparrows, on the other hand, great customer service. And great products with a very fine steel as well. #TeamSparrows
This at the outset strikes me as weird. These are tools which are designed to do fundamentally the same job. Do we need a war over knock-off screw-drivers, this craftsman has the same #1 tip and shank length as this Wera, must be a Wera knockoff? And what about all the knock-off framing hammers, and adjustable wrenches, and pliers, etc...
I don't believe Peterson have a leg to stand on, he may just be salty that Sparrows sells an entire set made of better steel for the price of 2 Peterson hooks.
@@LockNoob I own Sparrows so I know they're great, but my understanding is that Peterson's "government steel" is a bit of marketing ploy and not particularly springy or durable compared to other brands.
@@lockolot6704 Peterson's steel is fine. Some people swear by it. As a hobbyist picker, I can't tell the difference and tend to prefer Sparrow's picks. Petersons feel kind of bulky. Also, Peterson's whining about people "copying" them is really off-putting.
Competition is good. I love it when new players make picks, or old players make similar picks to each other. Keeps the prices proper for the consumer. These are pieces of steel that are stamped or machined out, and sanded. Basic hooks and rakes have been around for a century or more.
This is a very interesting and thought provoking video. My take on this is that for a number of years Peterson have rather lost their way and now they find themselves behind the curve trying to catch up. I guess we shouldn't be surprised after all they marketed that terrible t-shirt that clearly showed who their main competitor was. I agree that this does leave a sad taste.
Oooh, a petty feud T-SHIRT?! I'm intrigued. Having started out with the Tuxedo from Sparrows, I will admit I've been rather partial and loyal to them for several years. However, I might have to hunt down this fabled "Peterson T-Shirt," just to say I own something from him.
There are just so many pick manufacturers and so many shapes, you would be hard pressed to make one that is not is not a copy of one already on the market. But gauge is very important.
Many designs are pretty much universal. If a manufacturer wants something proprietary, they should trademark it or patent it. I'm new to lock sport but it seems to me that most people will consider price, material, and comfort when buying a pic. In sets we also may consider the case as well.
Given that a pick has to fit in a lock, and work in a set way theres not much you can do. A rake has to meet common pin spacing with an amount of lift, a hook curve to fit a key way and get the lift.
I recently had an interesting situation with Peterson. I've never used them due to cost. I regretfully went ahead and bought some Wave Rakes from Peterson. I snapped one about 2 weeks after buying it. Has never happened before. When I shaved the handle down to get the metal out of it I found out the pick ends at the rivet; it doesn't go through the handle. Completely explains the lack of feel and response they had. To me that's unacceptable at that price. Sparrows are all the through the handle.....why doesn't Peterson copy that? Thanks for the content Noob.
I’ve never had a problem with the feel on Peterson picks tbh, I love that gem in 0.018 very much - I’d be lost without it! I guess that when it comes down to it, each picker will have their own preferences so it’s good to have the choice :-)
It's actually pretty well-known that Peterson picks do not have metal running the length of the handle. I knew this when I purchased my picks from them. Their 0.018 profile picks are phenomenal, but their entire line is insanely pricey. You're paying for the name & the handle, and everyone should know that. I should note I have NEVER seen this cause a break or anything detrimental. I actually prefer the feedback from my Peterson picks to my Sparrows or SouthOrd. Anyway, don't buy Peterson unless you know what you're getting and have the funds to do so!
Great review and observations. While we are calling people/companies out... who copied the “wonder waves” set and to date has neither given credit to the original designers and manufactures? As you pointed out the similar reference in name, in my opinion there is a lot of petty anger and jealous going on here... way beyond competitive manufactures!!!
I would like to also point out that a shrike is a: a songbird with a strong sharply hooked bill... sparrows are birds and the bundle of these picks is sold as the shrike killer pick set...
I choose my picks based not just on profile but on quality, price and the customer service I can expect from the manufacturer. I agree with Lock Noob that all picks designed to do a certain job will have the same profile.
@@LockNoob I just had a look back at Ted's 1991 "MIT Lock Guide" and it's amazing how pick design has evolved over the years. The cycloid and sinusidal rakes, the hybrid picks (Medusa, etc.) lock sporters have greatly advanced picking and my hope is we can avoid a situation where manufacturers try to trademark, patent or license designs. That would certainly slow down the innovation we're seeing now.
I always thought the sparrows worm was proprietary to Sparrows. Peterson makes quality gear, but usually seem pretty pricey in comparison. Very good points sir 👍🏻
People will always copy what they like and what works. That's like blaming Ryobi for copying Milwaukee because their reciprocal saw takes the same blades.
I think this is a little silly, if also a little funny, from Peterson. I’ll be waiting for the Peterson Pick Test where random lock pickers are invited to pick a lock with a Peterson and their ‘unknown’ competitor’s product before casting a vote on who’s best. If Peterson react like this to Sparrows, don’t anyone tell them about Wish and Banggood.
I set out to make my own tools at home, build a better mousetrap, so to speak, and I used scientific methods to do it. I use the depth of keyway, distance from pin to pin, ect. Guess what-- they look just like manufactured picks. So, everyone is in the same boat as to making tools. As I saw in other comments, there only so many ways to make a screwdriver...
Great video. By the nature of the shape of the internals of a lock itself, all lock picks are going to be of "similar depth and reach". They have to be. Peterson is absolutely guilty of ripping off other designs. Bogota anyone? That's not theirs. They were not the first in the game by any stretch. I bet if we go back and see who made what first, it's not gonna look pretty for them. They make great picks, but this statement is pure horsecockery. Patent your stuff if it's actually yours, and fight for it in court. But don't be surprised when others do the same to you and come out on top.
I’ve always been a fan of sparrows. The price of the Peterson gear has always been a bit insulting. For instance one Peterson tok turning tool is $10. You can buy a set of 5 from sparrows for less than that.
Sparrows win the cool factor and a high quality lock pick is a high quality lock pick, sparrows, multipick, Peterson, whatever they're all extremely comparable.
Sparrows are made in China which is a no go to me.. They are very expensive when you compare their Chinese made costs VS the costs of the others made in the US and Germany..
Lmao. Reading through these comments, I've yet to see the Peterson defenders provide any proof of exactly which products Sparrows has stolen. The only one I can definitely say was Peterson's was the High HD as an obvious Gem responder. But they aren't the same, and people tend to prefer one over the other.
There needs to be a bit more information for me to make a decision. Like, is there a patent on these designs being the biggest one. Cause if there isn't, then anyone is free to do whatever they like with the picks.
@@LockNoob aye, would think it would be extremely difficult to get a patent on a length and shape of metal with no moving parts. Which then leaves it down to a question of morals and I imagine everyone will have a different perspective. I don't think many would disagree that its probably a pretty shitty thing to do, but it's the world we live in. There are always going to be knock offs, as long as people are willing to buy the knock off. So I'm going to try and answer your main question which was - should they exist? Probably not. But the customer is always right so going by that then whomever can make the best product at the cheapest price (that are patent exempt) should as it essentially benefits us at the bottom end who are buying/using the products. I guess its the same argument over should supermarkets be allowed to exist in small towns... The wee guy is always going to get pushed out by the big guy. Welcome to capitalism.
If they were actually copies of Peterson designs, would there be a need for Peterson to copy and correct the knock offs? I mean, wouldn't Peterson already have that same pick in the form of the original pick that Peterson's competitor copied initially?
Peterson has the Shrike picks with handles now too - maybe a limited production run. They are the normal Peterson plastic in burnt orange color. I honestly haven't had the quality control issues some have had with Peterson. Their handles are just the most comfortable for me to use and they are solid tools. I have read some irritating comments in various forums either made by Ken or responses from him to customers that are cringy. The lesson there is in spite of a good product, be careful about the image you present to the public. You don't need to give people reasons to have second thoughts. Hire a marketing guy, Ken - the DIY campaign to mock or take a stab at Sparrows isn't very professional.
This is one of those company being butthurt that that can't copyright basic tool shapes so instead of a lawsuit they make something like this. I'm sure Peterson makes good picks but I'm glad I can get good quality from sparrows for fraction of the price in EU.
I'm glad the picks we're made at a lower price point and seem to be higher quality than the norm. Whatever the feud between the competitors, Sparrows isn't (so far) being so petty. I'll continue purchasing Sparrows' products to keep Peterson from gouging us on prices, more than they have.
I like them both witch for me makes all this particularly distasteful. I do buy Peterson, but I have to go through European distributors to save on costs
sparrows has apparently lifted the designs off several mfgs. What exactly do they have to bitch about? That the otheter guys aren't actually making the picks for sparrows to sell?
Sparrows are very overpriced for being made in China.. The worst thing is they only show this when you buy individual pics but don't list it when the pics come in a kit..
@@zakofrx Sparrows picks are NOT Chinese. I just looked at my package of spares in my toolbox, and every last one of them has Made in CANADA on the package of the individual picks. Both the smaller handled thermoplastic and the plain Jane water jetted/lasered metal picks. Some of the products they sell are probably made overseas, but their picks ain't one of them.
I don't go out of my way to buy .025 picks. .022 is about as thick as I go - HPC spring steel. Some Sparrow's picks, and all total, I only own about 6 Peterson picks, including the Gem in both .018 and .015. Same for the H1 picks. I enjoy my assortment of many brands, and then I have some "generics" that I have customized.
LN excellent thought provoking video. I agree. Marketing products, monetary selling strategies aside. Both are good pick producers. They both have their merits, flaws. Just don’t copy a copy and then sling mud in your advertising and subtlety of your dislike of another competitors good fortunes. Openness would have been better to your loyal customers and potential customers. Take care.
Considering how hard it would be to patent a design like these (due to slight modifications, pre-existing form-factors/profiles on the market etc). I feel like they are just annoyed that others may be copying their designs (and that they may be called out for doing the same). If anything i would love the main brands to comment on the designs ie: based off peterson/sparrow etc our designers have felt that improvements could be made by A, B, C, D to give a superior product to the end user by . Plagerism is bad, offering alternatives and/or improvements are good
I'm a novice th picks I use are sparrows and some home made from wiper inserts. They are very very close in comparison. I've only done this sport or hobbie for a little more than a year. Feel for me between them is out. So is a slight change in shape. But I will say nock off yes! I'll take the cheaper and stay with Sparrows!!!! Excellent video!! DB
Quite expensive indeed. Ordering a couple picks from Peterson's from Europe entails a nonsensical $35 shipping charge. I find some from other sellers. Apparently, Peterson doesn't really want international customers.
@@LockNoob They're great but take up a bunch of space in a case compared to shrink tube handles. That's my main gripe about all handles -- Sparrows included. Except that one time Sparrows accidentally dipped two High Reaches in one handle and then sent me a third one when I told them about it. Didn't expect that. They have good customer service and are responsive to communication. They also seem willing to be innovative and responsive to the lock sport community. This may be Peterson's attempt to break into that market. Price has been the main reason I don't buy Peterson 100% of the time.
@@LockNoob I love the Sparrows 0.020" High Reach plus top of the keyway tension. That combo is an American Lock killer. I put in all spools, high-low key pins and crazy heavy lighter springs and it still makes it easy to get leverage on short key pins in the back. Have you compared the Sparrows top of the keyway pry bar set and Peterson's Flat Five? They're practically the same except for the knurling (and price, of course). I think the knurling makes the thinnest pry bar easier to bend if you're up against a heavy core spring. They're made from what seems like softer metal than their 0.050" pry bars, too. Knurling doesn't really do anything for me so it seems like a "cool factor" design move rather than what a serious tool maker would do.
I just got into a Abus 83/40 with a double peak, right out of the package, I made it myself with window wipers, still havnt gotten a real pick yet. Funny thing is I couldn't do it again and was a few hours before I was able to single pin pick it
@@LockNoob yeah hey, I got a few cheap locks I can stick the pick in and they open, then some days nothing. I found a bypass on the 83, it opens the shackle without unlocking the core. Just put a half diamond in and rub the back up and down and the shackle will pop
Actually no I was wrong, it was just my one that did it, I still don't know why but the one I have the trick works but definitely would not be possible on any other one I've seen.
It all comes down to price. Once sombody cut into your bottom line the "peaceful protester" side comes out. Keep up the good work Sparrows. Maybe just maybe somebody should lower his price to compete?????
Guess it depends on who came out with the design 1st. I myself think Peterson is over priced. Good food for thought though and again a another great video thanks noobster
I absolutely love that they exist. Four dollars each? I bought 10 of each hook profile and 2 of all the others. I put shrink tube on them and saved 60% lol. Ethics be dammed i got several dozen Peterson picks for dirt cheap
Are they charging more? Don’t really think it’s fair to steal a design. Original designers aren’t getting credit where credit is due. Very puzzling on how they can steal designs
I think it gets complicated where the designs are in themselves quite generic and in the case of hook picks, go back into the mists of time. I doubt anyone is copyrighting their designs for lock picks either, which makes things even more complicated. And who is stealing from who? Depends on who you ask I guess 🤷♂️
Very interesting review. I met Ken at a trade show some time ago and he seemed to be just a regular guy who likes to make things that work. In his own words never gets perfection, he demonstrated his range of bypass tools which worked fine. His picks were more for the USA market at that time but now addresses the European market as well. OK Sparrows who make picks and feedback from buyers suggest they are very good but have not been around as long may share some similarity's but thats it you would have to go way back to find what design was first and I doubt it would be Peterson. I personally don't own either its a personal choice. Both vendors offer individual picks so you can make your own choice and find what works best for you. You do have a choice where you wish to spend your money.
Choice is great and fantastic for us consumers. I use a mixture of all the top brands including Peterson and Sparrows as it’s good to have a tailored kit that suits the individual. I’d really like to meet Ken, he really sounds like a knowledgeable and interesting guy.
@@LockNoob Several people have told me he’s kind of a jerk and that’s why he doesn’t get invited to security related cons (where they often have a lock picking village) any more. That’s secondhand though so do with it what you want. You could ask Dev his thoughts next time you see him, I’m sure he has more firsthand (or better secondhand) knowledge on the subject
Just as in nature there is convergent evolution, the same is true of convergent designs. There's a problem or task to be done and people come to the same conclusions as to what is the best solution for that problem or task. It is quite common for multiple people to come to the same conclusions or design in the history of science or product development from tools to planes to theories or techniques. There's nothing mysterious or underhanded to any of this to me. I like sparrows putting dimples in their high reach or monkey paw over similar picks from other manufacturers, as I like peterson having high-low & low-high versions of city rakes (sorry "ripple" picks); and a short pick 0.025 from one is a short pick 0.025 from the other, it's just price points & personal preference separating them.
Given your past relationship with Sparrows (something worth mentioning, for transparency?), you could probably ask them when each pattern was released, and Peterson can chose to respond in kind or not. In any case, Peterson’s approach isn’t healthy for the sport, and they’ll have no more of my money - I’ve never opened a lock with a Peterson that I couldn’t open with a Sparrows.
I still have a relationship with sparrows as I do many Manufacturers but I’m not in their pay and receive no ongoing monetary reward from their sales of any designs. I think I was extremely fair on Peterson and described these as very well made very good value picks. I really do not want to put myself in the middle of this rivalry, only explore that which Peterson themselves have written and made
They are great, but god help you if you have a faulty one. Ken the owner is very rude even when you are being relatively cordial. They also don't replace the product they just say it's all your fault and that you don't know what you are doing and they won't replace and will only give you a discount on a replacement (after he proceeds to be snarky and talk down to you). As great as Peterson may be I wouldn't buy them again.
i'm a tool guy, i own tools, i use tools, i have mutiple tools of the same tool. picks are lock tools. how many companies make spanners, screwdrivers, hammers, pliers etc... they are all the same yet different, i don;t own any petersons but i plan on grabbing a few one day, i own other picks, it makes no difference to me who makes what first, every company has a unique looks, feel, material etc... in my opinion they are not the same because they are not exact replica copies, to be the same they would have to have the same handle with the "made in USA" thing etc just like a knockoff handbag of a premium designer.
Great expose'. And, I agree... a lot of effort on their part to make a point (pun intended) that does not need making. I am pleased that the picks are at least good quality picks. Funny thing, I was looking over my various favorite picks, and I realized that NONE of them are exactly the way I received them from the factory... all slightly altered... polishing, handles, slight shape filing, etc. Does this make me a rip off? or does it make me a creator? Send for my patent attorney!!!
Simply put if you do not or cannot patent something then you can depend on other people to plagiarise it. There are only a certain number of possible pick designs capable of being produced so you have to expect a lot of similar products.
If you are rich buy Multipick. I've used it and it is brilliant. I just can't buy it. Peterson is strong but too expensive for me. Southord picks are very, very effective but damn they break easily. Sparrows offer best value for money for a bopt string budget guy like me.
There's only so many shapes and designs that one could come up with for a pick to fit into a keyway so enabling lock picking! Its a bit like bread, lots of variations but it's still bread at the end of the day ;-)
S0 what I see is Peterson Just ripped off sparrows. If I want those profiles I would buy them form sparrows ( and I have them ) . I like Peterson picks but lets be honest, sparrows makes great picks for half the price.
I say let the different brands fight it out amongst themselves. I have several different pick sets myself and find I have my favorites I prefer the offset snake (deforest I think you call them) that southord sells and Peterson makes my favorite long reach tool but I like sparrows bogata, and multipicks TOK tension wrenches. And so on and so forth...for each type of tool I have a favorite brand.
@@LockNoob I couldn't bring myself to breakup a kit, so I just keep a bunch of kits handy LOL. I've also been slowly (as my budget allows) buying single picks to add to and supplement my kits. I suppose my favorite/main kit is a sparrows set I supplemented with a whole bunch of tensioners, some southord picks, 2 peterson picks, and a bunch of odds and ends such as wafer jigglers, warded skeleton keys, bump keys, combs, shims, some paperclips and bobby pins, and a few handcuff keys disguised as different things or easy to hide. The original kit also came with three 5 pin SC1 cutaway practice cylinders I kept in it, but modified into 6 pin and altered so they can be easily re-pinned without removing the core. It's a pretty complete kit now for just about any pin tumbler style lock. Only problem now is getting the damn zipper closed. Lol. I also have a kinda convoluted tool kit with those little bitty rubber pinning mats/trays from sparrows, and a whole whack of different crap from hardware stores and 6 or 8 different locksmith stores. Not including pins and parts that are in another separate case. This started as a curiosity with one cheap set and a desire to learn a new skill, but quickly became a hobby with a huge collection of stuff.
This just rubs me the wrong way. If somebody makes a "knock off" of your product with "obvious design flaws", and you take that knock off and fix those design flaws, how do you end up with a product that's different than the one you started with? Doesn't that imply the knock off was actually different than your product in some substantial way? There are only so many shapes to make a lockpick in, after all. Make whatever new products you want (and I welcome cheaper picks from Peterson), but that description and especially the name come off as very childish to me.
I got the Peterson Gem since you said it's your favorite, I wanted to see why. I got it with the rubber handle though, really liking the feel. I am noticing it has great feedback, but I seem to have trouble keeping the tip where I want it. I'm 100% sure it's due to my inexperience. Should I be trying to use leverage and push the pins with the point of the tip or use more of a pushing action with the flat side? Also, is it the amount of feedback that makes it your favorite?
Competition within this field is always good and I welcome anything that's even "similar" between manufacturers because it allows a lot more variety at various price points, but saying that other picks are "apparent knock-offs" because of their profile and reach is... well... a reach. Chill, Peterson. I'm not even saying they're ripping off Sparrows here, but... etc.
ken peterson is known to have a huge chip on his shoulder. he's also shown in countless interactions with customers that he probably should have someone else handling that aspect of his business. mostly because of him and his actions i've given away nearly all of my peterson tools and refuse to give his company any more money. there are too many other manufacturers out there producing top drawer product and who know how to treat their customers.
This is not the first time I’ve heard someone say something like this about him. When I keep hearing the same thing from multiple sources, it makes me think maybe there’s something to it. I’ve avoided ordering from him since I was told about it. Every dollar is a vote, so it matters where you spend your dollars/votes.
Just had a recent and unpleasant experience. He's an odd duck. Seems to believe that telling you about his business and personal problems will excuse lapses in customer service. Cringy and weird experience. Won't be dealing with them again.
I love Peterson picks, I still occasionaly roll with the GSP Ghost kit. But they'd wanna be awesome for the price. Currently using the dark shift set in the creeper case for work, added some BOK wrenches and the GOAT, but otherwise stock. It's just as good honestly, and still with all that costs less than a standard peterson kit. I think they need to innovate more, and bitch less. Also, something about kettles and pots...... Great vid as always mate. Cheers.
Not been picking long having recently moved on to Sparrows picks from the cheapo set I started out with. Can anyone recommend say 6 good padlocks for me to practice on ( ideally available in the UK) many thanks. Cheers 🍻
Isn't the Sparrows worm just a copy of the Bogota? Sparrows have not been around long, I'd be interested to see any picks they ever sold that they actually came up with. Is the Peterson Gem the same as their Long Reach? Because they've had a pick that resembles the Lunatic for a very long time. And let's not pretend Peterson invented these either, they're all plagiarists.
Well tbh, are not all picks a little bit similar to one another? There are only so many ways to meet the same function and book designs go bak into antiquity. Now wholesale ripping of an entire set, exactly, handles and all would be plagiarism for sure... I can think of one case where this happened. Edit, the word is quite different from the Bogata, but all bogata are copies of Raymundo’s original design are they not 🤷♂️
@@LockNoob I'm not convinced Raimundo came up with the wobbly, even-tip-height rake either to be honest. Like you say, there are only so many ways to do the same thing, material type, deburring and polishing are not factors in my book. Handles leave a little room for innovation I guess, not that you'd ever know, or see it.
I'd honestly not buy their sets at all. Buy individually. The sets don't really offer a discount, nor do you get to try a bunch of designs for less money. I like Sparrows for price and effectiveness, so I'd start there and then buy the profiles from Peterson, Southord, etc. that are similar. Over time you're gonna spend some money, but if on a budget... Peterson just isn't a good value. That's my 2 cents.
Who is coping who? And why, a pick that is needed to pick a high pin six for example can only very A small amount from manufacturer to manufacture otherwise it simple won't work! So it may simply be down to who designed the pick in the first place.
This video was very well done Ash. Your thoughts and choice of expression make this stand out and a fair video given the facts you mentioned. 👍 I have some peterson picks. I prefer my southord slimlines but use the sparrows ssdev and other hooks as well as the peterson picks often. They all have some pros and cons. Hats of to sticking your head into this hornet's nest to show us these picks and coming out unharmed 🙏
Up to now, I only use Multipick picks (and I like them). Would it make sense to try some picks of Peterson or Sparows? Do they have good one, which are not avalilable from Multipick? How about tensioners? Thanks for advice.
Honestly, if you can afford Multipick, the only reason I can see you would need to go elsewhere is if they don’t have a specific profile that you can’t fashion yourself, (I’m not sure if multipick do any of the ssdev profiles, which I think are all excellent, especially the super deep hook). Multipick is probably the European version of Peterson in that you get a premium product at a premium price.
@@adamwest8711 Thank you, Adam! Peterson picks appear to be more expensive, at least in Europe. Typical picks from Multipick cost around 5 €/$ and Peterson more like 8. At the pry bars, Peterson is more then double the price.
@@LockNoob Thanks a lot. I did not find TOK tensioners with thickness in between the "usual" steps (0.8 - 1.0 - 1.2 mm). Any hint to a scorce for 0.9, 1.1 ... mm?
It’s so strange the way go about it, as if sparrows is knocking off peterson, when common sense tells you it’s the opposite. With sparrows being a leader in pick manufacturing and sales lately though, I’m sure they want their piece as well 😏 Very well done, you’re the first I’d seen do a side by side comparison of the two! Imo, Peterson probably wanted to be considered an option, when they otherwise wouldn’t have been, when pickers are considering the unique(formerly unique) profiles offered by Sparrows.
You can't rip-off a pick. Some designs work better, so everyone is going to make them. If a pick shape has unique features then you can patent it. They haven't, so anyone can make it. QED...
This is ludicrous. Imagine a big manufacturer of 6 mm drill bits taking legal action against a small manufacturer because their 6 mm drill bits are the same diameter and length! It would be laughed out of court. This attitude does Peterson's no favours whatsoever, and would dissuade people from ever wanting to buy their products again.
This seems like another case of a company in the USA saying they were "knocked off" and then did precisely that and stole the design from a competitor, no doubt in a US court Peterson would win :(
I have all the big names as you would too. But out of my Peterson sparrows Multipick law lock and wendt. I Honestly like the best and feel of the sparrows it just feels so much better in my hand i much prefer them. BUT dont get me wrong every set has its day .I like to buy everything and NOT use rather than need one and i haven't got it very embarrassing . But besides that the TAX MAN PAYS FOR THE LOT AT END OF YEAR anyway so buy everything thats available i think Peterson are going for sue the company's and vise versa. They all everyone of them all look the same as each other. I would say Peterson' are feeling the PINCH in there pockets BECAUSE there are so many lockpick makers now days and its hurting there pocket 8 YEARS AGO YOU were very limited to where you could buy PICKS but its not the case now days and its really effected there Bottom line
Love your skill at being circumspect there, @Lock Noob - very careful choices of words and phrases throughout. However, I don't have to be so careful in what I say, and I can say that Peterson picks are functionally very good, but quality control and finish is terrible, and price is way over the top. I think they're hurting because Sparrows are making good picks for realistic prices, and much better finished. I say that as the owner of numerous Peterson picks. All of them needed sanding and in many cases the plastic trimmed from the handles as well. That shouldn't happen for the money. In contrast, my Multipick, and Law Lock picks needed no such tweaks. Let's face it - there are only so many permutations and combinations of reach, profile, shape, etc that will work as a lock pick. As others have pointed out - a screwdriver is a screwdriver, a hammer is a hammer. But Peterson's obvious knock-off of the Sparrows picks, along with their very obvious naming analogies, does them no credit at all.
I can say this as I only own Sparrows snd Mad Bob picks, and the LPL curved TOK tensioners; Peterson would've done better just selling the Shrike set to their customer base without the BS explanation. Peterson sets are overpriced IMHO, especially given the quality and precision of MB picks at a fraction of their prices. BTW Ash, I absolutely enjoy the CAREFUL wording used throughout the video. Very legalese if you will. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Very interesting comments, feel a little sick, that looks like the worse kind of rewriting of history & theft. I sincerely hope there's mutual humour going on between the two companies & expect the "sparrows nest" or "ghost sparrow" to hit the shelves in a return quip ^o^ (I prefer the High HD steel to the Gem & it's in no way marketed as a single 'catch-all' hook to compete with the Gem. Those Shrike are blatant rip offs, though was it just a 'small-batch joke'?)
These are pretty great picks... but should they have been made? See what you think and let me know your thoughts in the comments 👍😃
I'm not sure if they should have been made but I still bought all of them because they're great picks. They're made from government steel and are half the price of Peterson's basic plastic handle picks.
They ARE good picks at a good price 👍
True story. Peterson named the pic the shrike because shrikes are known to kill sparrows. A shrike is a passerine bird of the family Laniidae.
Ahhhh, not so subtle then, huh lol
@@LockNoob On top of that, their lifeless quarry can be seen gruesomely impaled on sharp objects like twigs and barbed wire throughout the southern United States and northern Canada, where Loggerhead Shrikes and Northern Shrikes range, respectively. (The Loggerhead population has declined by more than 80 percent since the 1960s, possibly due to pesticides killing their insect prey.) This macabre behavior, which is not a Game of Thrones-esque warning to other birds but a form of food storage, led Wired to declare the Loggerhead Shrike “by far the most metal of birds.” The editorial staff of Audubon are inclined to agree.
@@mr.j6785 maybe sparrows should bring out a line of picks called " pesticides "
No shit? Hahaha 😂
I think Mr Peterson is mebbes just paranoid.
Maybe Mr. Peterson should make his company more innovative, and stop wayyyy overcharging for the ideas of others. Peterson for picks, is like Benchmade for knives..
When you believe Pick "reach and depth" are your intellectual property, you're drawing a very long bow. It's so absurd it's hilarious, particularly given the fact Peterson have been making knockoffs of Raimundos Bogota for years. Good on you for grabbing the horns of the Peterson Bull Ash. Now just hang on with both hands, you could be in for a wild ride.
You may note how careful i was with my words there Tipene - made very sure i didn’t make any accusations that Peterson copied anyone, only that there were very strong resemblances. I also made sure I used the words they have on their own website. But yes, reach and depth are not things you can patent for lock picks really. It all just leaves you feeling a little confused really
It looks to me like Peterson is ripping off Sparrows designs and trying to justify it through linguistic gymnastics.
I wouldn’t like to say
Oh, I’ll say. You are exactly right. It’s pure chicanery. Peterson is lying. Or doing this all tongue-in-cheek by agreement with other manufacturers. Probably dreamed up over several pints of beer. If they were serious, and honest about this, it would all be taken care of by lawyers (barristers). Since that never happened, we are left to assume that Peterson believes two wrongs makes a right, or they are simply jealous of other manufacturers who make better products at better prices.
Peterson had these picks out way before sparrows. They got ripped off by sparrows gimmicky horse shit. Peterson picks are way superior to sparrows.
Phil Biggersraff Sparrows has been producing their lunatic, Attila and the others long before Peterson came out with these. To me it looks like Peterson said, “Hey! Sparrows is making pieces of flat metal with bent tips just like we are! They can’t get away with that! We will show them! We will copy their copy of our pieces of flat metal with bent tips!” Yeah, Peterson might make some good picks. But Sparrows makes some nice picks too. You might be able to drag them for their “gimmicky” marketing. But it’s marketing. They are at least willing to try and do new things for lockpickers that no one else is doing. Their practice lock set is great and affordable. Their revolver practice lock is affordable. Their reload kit is a great deal. They have put into production tools and picks that lock pickers have designed. Peterson..... not so much. Plus Peterson charges an arm and a leg for everything they sell. I’ll take Sparrows prices and their “gimmicky” marketing over Peterson’s prices and their stodgy elitist marketing any day of the week. I own a lot of picks from multiple makers. Southord, Southern Specialties, Law Lock Tools, Sparrows and a few others. What I don’t own are Peterson picks or Multipicks for that matter. To me, they just aren’t worth the money. They won’t make me a better picker and I can pick the same locks with a cheaper pick and the cheaper pick will last me just as long. Plus, I don’t feel bad about modifying a cheaper pick if I need to. My Southern Specialties hook picks were purchased just for modifications. They make great pick sets by the way. They aren’t that expensive and they are nicely finished. Their jack knife lock pick is one of the best deals out there by the way. You can even specify which picks you want it to have when you order it.
Phil Biggersraff Nice troll attempt.
This is akin to me claiming a copyright on a hammer or a 9/16 open end wrench. They need to get over themselves and just be thankful people give them ridiculous amounts of money (guilty) for tin tools that cost them pennies.
Well, at least they aren’t actually made from tin, so there is that!
@@LockNoob I assume you know that was tongue in cheek. :)
@@WilsonFlyer yes, as was my reply 🙂
@@LockNoob As I thought. Carry on, and keep up the great work. We appreciate it.
I love the Peterson picks I own and find I’m grabbing them regularly as they consistently open locks for me but I hate their attitude.
Me too, love that Gem!
Absolutely. If their picks weren't my first preference (multipick would be, but the shipping and price is hard to swallow), I would not deal with them at all. I recently realized they sent me a wrong pick of a profile I do not like (hook 5). Instead of dealing with them I attempted to alter the pick to a shape I would have rather had. Not liking my adjustment I clipped the tip off to use the pick for tubular locks. When I was about to place another order I let them know my dilemma so they could send me the correct one without them having to cover the shipping cost. I admit it was dumb of me not to address the issue immediately and not have proper evidence (as I had rendered it impossible to discern), but after spending a couple hundred dollars with them already they absolutely GRILLED ME about it. They accused me of suspicious activity over an $8 pick! Long winded and late response but I share your sentiment. Terrible customer service.
I've never used Peterson picks, but having heard so many horror stories about their attitude over the years, I honestly have no interest in doing business with them. Sparrows, on the other hand, great customer service. And great products with a very fine steel as well.
#TeamSparrows
The names are the best part, not even trying to hide it.
Lol
This at the outset strikes me as weird. These are tools which are designed to do fundamentally the same job. Do we need a war over knock-off screw-drivers, this craftsman has the same #1 tip and shank length as this Wera, must be a Wera knockoff? And what about all the knock-off framing hammers, and adjustable wrenches, and pliers, etc...
I think you hit the nail on the head
I don't believe Peterson have a leg to stand on, he may just be salty that Sparrows sells an entire set made of better steel for the price of 2 Peterson hooks.
Better steel? I dunno, both do great steel IMO
@@LockNoob I own Sparrows so I know they're great, but my understanding is that Peterson's "government steel" is a bit of marketing ploy and not particularly springy or durable compared to other brands.
@@ivanmac89 I’ve always found it to be super durable, but that’s just me
Lock Noob I’ve never had a Peterson set but I own a bunch of sparrows. I really really like their steel. How is Peterson steel?
@@lockolot6704 Peterson's steel is fine. Some people swear by it. As a hobbyist picker, I can't tell the difference and tend to prefer Sparrow's picks. Petersons feel kind of bulky. Also, Peterson's whining about people "copying" them is really off-putting.
Competition is good. I love it when new players make picks, or old players make similar picks to each other. Keeps the prices proper for the consumer. These are pieces of steel that are stamped or machined out, and sanded. Basic hooks and rakes have been around for a century or more.
Competition is always good for us!
This is a very interesting and thought provoking video. My take on this is that for a number of years Peterson have rather lost their way and now they find themselves behind the curve trying to catch up. I guess we shouldn't be surprised after all they marketed that terrible t-shirt that clearly showed who their main competitor was. I agree that this does leave a sad taste.
Oh yes, that T-shirt wasn’t something to be proud of really was it lol
Oooh, a petty feud T-SHIRT?! I'm intrigued. Having started out with the Tuxedo from Sparrows, I will admit I've been rather partial and loyal to them for several years. However, I might have to hunt down this fabled "Peterson T-Shirt," just to say I own something from him.
There are just so many pick manufacturers and so many shapes, you would be hard pressed to make one that is not is not a copy of one already on the market. But gauge is very important.
I think there is room=m for some innovation, but there is little room too manoeuvre for sure
Many designs are pretty much universal. If a manufacturer wants something proprietary, they should trademark it or patent it. I'm new to lock sport but it seems to me that most people will consider price, material, and comfort when buying a pic. In sets we also may consider the case as well.
Great review---- i was mainly thinking --ooh petersons with a full tang!!
Could be the middle of a nice pick design!
Given that a pick has to fit in a lock, and work in a set way theres not much you can do.
A rake has to meet common pin spacing with an amount of lift, a hook curve to fit a key way and get the lift.
I recently had an interesting situation with Peterson. I've never used them due to cost. I regretfully went ahead and bought some Wave Rakes from Peterson. I snapped one about 2 weeks after buying it. Has never happened before. When I shaved the handle down to get the metal out of it I found out the pick ends at the rivet; it doesn't go through the handle. Completely explains the lack of feel and response they had. To me that's unacceptable at that price. Sparrows are all the through the handle.....why doesn't Peterson copy that? Thanks for the content Noob.
I’ve never had a problem with the feel on Peterson picks tbh, I love that gem in 0.018 very much - I’d be lost without it! I guess that when it comes down to it, each picker will have their own preferences so it’s good to have the choice :-)
@@LockNoob - i have a gem in .025 (black rubber handle) & its had some u(bu)se , i like peterson but pricey as hell shipped to the UK ..........
It's actually pretty well-known that Peterson picks do not have metal running the length of the handle. I knew this when I purchased my picks from them. Their 0.018 profile picks are phenomenal, but their entire line is insanely pricey. You're paying for the name & the handle, and everyone should know that. I should note I have NEVER seen this cause a break or anything detrimental. I actually prefer the feedback from my Peterson picks to my Sparrows or SouthOrd. Anyway, don't buy Peterson unless you know what you're getting and have the funds to do so!
One of the best rakes imo , sparrows worm , no wonder ken has copied it - good vid. mate :)
I do love the worm!
Great review and observations.
While we are calling people/companies out... who copied the “wonder waves” set and to date has neither given credit to the original designers and manufactures?
As you pointed out the similar reference in name, in my opinion there is a lot of petty anger and jealous going on here... way beyond competitive manufactures!!!
Peterson and Law Lock Tools have nothing credited Toool for the wonder waves I can think of some other company that hasn’t as far as I can see
It is said that "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery", are Peterson accidentally paying Sparrows a compliment ! ?
Very possibly 🤷♂️
Well the Monstrum HD was a copy of the Peterson Gem so it's only fair.
Looking at both, I’d say they were subtly different. So much so, I use the gem over the High HD
"It's mine. And what's mine is mine." (* eye-roll.)
I would like to also point out that a shrike is a:
a songbird with a strong sharply hooked bill... sparrows are birds and the bundle of these picks is sold as the shrike killer pick set...
I choose my picks based not just on profile but on quality, price and the customer service I can expect from the manufacturer. I agree with Lock Noob that all picks designed to do a certain job will have the same profile.
Its hard not to be a variation on a theme when there are so many design out there for the same function
@@LockNoob I just had a look back at Ted's 1991 "MIT Lock Guide" and it's amazing how pick design has evolved over the years. The cycloid and sinusidal rakes, the hybrid picks (Medusa, etc.) lock sporters have greatly advanced picking and my hope is we can avoid a situation where manufacturers try to trademark, patent or license designs. That would certainly slow down the innovation we're seeing now.
My first attemt at making a bogata end up exactly matching the sparrows worm and worked better than the bogata.
If it works it works
I always thought the sparrows worm was proprietary to Sparrows. Peterson makes quality gear, but usually seem pretty pricey in comparison. Very good points sir 👍🏻
Thanks
People will always copy what they like and what works. That's like blaming Ryobi for copying Milwaukee because their reciprocal saw takes the same blades.
Lol, well they are owned by the same company. TTI industries.
Indeed
@@laurenarndt464 i know, i said that in my post edit i used to work for home depot fyi.
@@laurenarndt464 ha not for me. I got to tell off customers all the time. I am actually thinking about going back....for the right money this time.
@@laurenarndt464 nope i was in the electrical department
I think this is a little silly, if also a little funny, from Peterson.
I’ll be waiting for the Peterson Pick Test where random lock pickers are invited to pick a lock with a Peterson and their ‘unknown’ competitor’s product before casting a vote on who’s best.
If Peterson react like this to Sparrows, don’t anyone tell them about Wish and Banggood.
Lol
I set out to make my own tools at home, build a better mousetrap, so to speak, and I used scientific methods to do it. I use the depth of keyway, distance from pin to pin, ect. Guess what-- they look just like manufactured picks. So, everyone is in the same boat as to making tools. As I saw in other comments, there only so many ways to make a screwdriver...
indeed
Reminds me a little of Monty Python's "Institute of Redundancy Institute". 😃
Nice one
Great video. By the nature of the shape of the internals of a lock itself, all lock picks are going to be of "similar depth and reach". They have to be. Peterson is absolutely guilty of ripping off other designs. Bogota anyone? That's not theirs. They were not the first in the game by any stretch. I bet if we go back and see who made what first, it's not gonna look pretty for them. They make great picks, but this statement is pure horsecockery. Patent your stuff if it's actually yours, and fight for it in court. But don't be surprised when others do the same to you and come out on top.
I’ve always been a fan of sparrows. The price of the Peterson gear has always been a bit insulting. For instance one Peterson tok turning tool is $10. You can buy a set of 5 from sparrows for less than that.
Sparrows win the cool factor and a high quality lock pick is a high quality lock pick, sparrows, multipick, Peterson, whatever they're all extremely comparable.
Sparrows are made in China which is a no go to me..
They are very expensive when you compare their Chinese made costs VS the costs of the others made in the US and Germany..
Next is the Peterson disc retainer pick by BalkanBill and the LockPickingAttorney
Lmao. Reading through these comments, I've yet to see the Peterson defenders provide any proof of exactly which products Sparrows has stolen. The only one I can definitely say was Peterson's was the High HD as an obvious Gem responder. But they aren't the same, and people tend to prefer one over the other.
The worm is one of my favorites, got it when they first first came out and has lasted ever since
Same here
They look like Sparrows monstrium set. Which a have and love lol
Its. A good set!
There needs to be a bit more information for me to make a decision. Like, is there a patent on these designs being the biggest one. Cause if there isn't, then anyone is free to do whatever they like with the picks.
I doubt any pick designs are under patent tbh
@@LockNoob aye, would think it would be extremely difficult to get a patent on a length and shape of metal with no moving parts. Which then leaves it down to a question of morals and I imagine everyone will have a different perspective. I don't think many would disagree that its probably a pretty shitty thing to do, but it's the world we live in. There are always going to be knock offs, as long as people are willing to buy the knock off. So I'm going to try and answer your main question which was - should they exist? Probably not.
But the customer is always right so going by that then whomever can make the best product at the cheapest price (that are patent exempt) should as it essentially benefits us at the bottom end who are buying/using the products.
I guess its the same argument over should supermarkets be allowed to exist in small towns...
The wee guy is always going to get pushed out by the big guy.
Welcome to capitalism.
If they were actually copies of Peterson designs, would there be a need for Peterson to copy and correct the knock offs? I mean, wouldn't Peterson already have that same pick in the form of the original pick that Peterson's competitor copied initially?
Good point well made
As you touch on in this video mate,ALL picks are going to be really similar because they are tools that do the same job regardless of who makes them
Pretty much!
Peterson has the Shrike picks with handles now too - maybe a limited production run. They are the normal Peterson plastic in burnt orange color. I honestly haven't had the quality control issues some have had with Peterson. Their handles are just the most comfortable for me to use and they are solid tools. I have read some irritating comments in various forums either made by Ken or responses from him to customers that are cringy. The lesson there is in spite of a good product, be careful about the image you present to the public. You don't need to give people reasons to have second thoughts. Hire a marketing guy, Ken - the DIY campaign to mock or take a stab at Sparrows isn't very professional.
Very good comment 👍👍
Just had a recent issue with them and a subsequent email dialog with Mr. Peterson. Cringy is a pretty accurate description of interactions with him.
This is one of those company being butthurt that that can't copyright basic tool shapes so instead of a lawsuit they make something like this. I'm sure Peterson makes good picks but I'm glad I can get good quality from sparrows for fraction of the price in EU.
I'm glad the picks we're made at a lower price point and seem to be higher quality than the norm. Whatever the feud between the competitors, Sparrows isn't (so far) being so petty. I'll continue purchasing Sparrows' products to keep Peterson from gouging us on prices, more than they have.
I like them both witch for me makes all this particularly distasteful. I do buy Peterson, but I have to go through European distributors to save on costs
sparrows has apparently lifted the designs off several mfgs. What exactly do they have to bitch about? That the otheter guys aren't actually making the picks for sparrows to sell?
@@johnspencer3994 what have they lifted? Feel free to share - I’m genuinely interested to know
Sparrows are very overpriced for being made in China..
The worst thing is they only show this when you buy individual pics but don't list it when the pics come in a kit..
@@zakofrx Sparrows picks are NOT Chinese. I just looked at my package of spares in my toolbox, and every last one of them has Made in CANADA on the package of the individual picks. Both the smaller handled thermoplastic and the plain Jane water jetted/lasered metal picks. Some of the products they sell are probably made overseas, but their picks ain't one of them.
I don't go out of my way to buy .025 picks. .022 is about as thick as I go - HPC spring steel. Some Sparrow's picks, and all total, I only own about 6 Peterson picks, including the Gem in both .018 and .015. Same for the H1 picks. I enjoy my assortment of many brands, and then I have some "generics" that I have customized.
How does Peterson feel they OWN a shape and depth for anything?
LN excellent thought provoking video. I agree. Marketing products, monetary selling strategies aside. Both are good pick producers. They both have their merits, flaws. Just don’t copy a copy and then sling mud in your advertising and subtlety of your dislike of another competitors good fortunes. Openness would have been better to your loyal customers and potential customers. Take care.
Thank you , take care too
Considering how hard it would be to patent a design like these (due to slight modifications, pre-existing form-factors/profiles on the market etc). I feel like they are just annoyed that others may be copying their designs (and that they may be called out for doing the same). If anything i would love the main brands to comment on the designs ie: based off peterson/sparrow etc our designers have felt that improvements could be made by A, B, C, D to give a superior product to the end user by .
Plagerism is bad, offering alternatives and/or improvements are good
Yes, good for us, the consumer for sure
I'm a novice th picks I use are sparrows and some home made from wiper inserts. They are very very close in comparison. I've only done this sport or hobbie for a little more than a year. Feel for me between them is out. So is a slight change in shape. But I will say nock off yes! I'll take the cheaper and stay with Sparrows!!!! Excellent video!! DB
Quite expensive indeed. Ordering a couple picks from Peterson's from Europe entails a nonsensical $35 shipping charge. I find some from other sellers. Apparently, Peterson doesn't really want international customers.
I think there are a few re-sellers in Europe now
Yes, they should exist. Peterson handles are bulky and shrink tubing is the best for grip and feel. A very welcome addition to their lineup.
I like normal Peterson handles
@@LockNoob They're great but take up a bunch of space in a case compared to shrink tube handles. That's my main gripe about all handles -- Sparrows included. Except that one time Sparrows accidentally dipped two High Reaches in one handle and then sent me a third one when I told them about it. Didn't expect that. They have good customer service and are responsive to communication. They also seem willing to be innovative and responsive to the lock sport community. This may be Peterson's attempt to break into that market. Price has been the main reason I don't buy Peterson 100% of the time.
@@jdcritchfield yes very expensive especially in Europe, but I buy some gems time to time anyway
@@LockNoob I love the Sparrows 0.020" High Reach plus top of the keyway tension. That combo is an American Lock killer. I put in all spools, high-low key pins and crazy heavy lighter springs and it still makes it easy to get leverage on short key pins in the back.
Have you compared the Sparrows top of the keyway pry bar set and Peterson's Flat Five? They're practically the same except for the knurling (and price, of course). I think the knurling makes the thinnest pry bar easier to bend if you're up against a heavy core spring. They're made from what seems like softer metal than their 0.050" pry bars, too. Knurling doesn't really do anything for me so it seems like a "cool factor" design move rather than what a serious tool maker would do.
I just got into a Abus 83/40 with a double peak, right out of the package, I made it myself with window wipers, still havnt gotten a real pick yet. Funny thing is I couldn't do it again and was a few hours before I was able to single pin pick it
locks can be fickle like that
@@LockNoob yeah hey, I got a few cheap locks I can stick the pick in and they open, then some days nothing. I found a bypass on the 83, it opens the shackle without unlocking the core. Just put a half diamond in and rub the back up and down and the shackle will pop
Actually no I was wrong, it was just my one that did it, I still don't know why but the one I have the trick works but definitely would not be possible on any other one I've seen.
Great video mate. And all Very well put. 👍
Thanks Daz! The lock arrived too, thank you 🙏
It all comes down to price. Once sombody cut into your bottom line the "peaceful protester" side comes out. Keep up the good work Sparrows. Maybe just maybe somebody should lower his price to compete?????
Guess it depends on who came out with the design 1st. I myself think Peterson is over priced. Good food for thought though and again a another great video thanks noobster
Thank you 🙏
I absolutely love that they exist. Four dollars each? I bought 10 of each hook profile and 2 of all the others. I put shrink tube on them and saved 60% lol. Ethics be dammed i got several dozen Peterson picks for dirt cheap
They are a good price that’s for sure
The pick is only as good as the tool using it 👍
lol yes
They look like the ssdev medium and short hook profile
Ill have to go and look!
Let anyone make anything and we'll choose based on value, quality, brand loyalty, or whatever.
Indeed
Reminds me of cars .. "oh gosh it also has 4 wheels" xD
So picks are like everything else lol. Thanks for the videos showing us 👍🏻
Thanks
Are they charging more? Don’t really think it’s fair to steal a design. Original designers aren’t getting credit where credit is due. Very puzzling on how they can steal designs
I think it gets complicated where the designs are in themselves quite generic and in the case of hook picks, go back into the mists of time. I doubt anyone is copyrighting their designs for lock picks either, which makes things even more complicated. And who is stealing from who? Depends on who you ask I guess 🤷♂️
Yes a lady pick designer the amazing Christina Palmer as one example should get more recognition 👍👍👍👍👍🔑🔐🔒🔓😎
Indeed
Very interesting review. I met Ken at a trade show some time ago and he seemed to be just a regular guy who likes to make things that work. In his own words never gets perfection, he demonstrated his range of bypass tools which worked fine. His picks were more for the USA market at that time but now addresses the European market as well. OK Sparrows who make picks and feedback from buyers suggest they are very good but have not been around as long may share some similarity's but thats it you would have to go way back to find what design was first and I doubt it would be Peterson. I personally don't own either its a personal choice. Both vendors offer individual picks so you can make your own choice and find what works best for you. You do have a choice where you wish to spend your money.
Choice is great and fantastic for us consumers. I use a mixture of all the top brands including Peterson and Sparrows as it’s good to have a tailored kit that suits the individual. I’d really like to meet Ken, he really sounds like a knowledgeable and interesting guy.
@@LockNoob Several people have told me he’s kind of a jerk and that’s why he doesn’t get invited to security related cons (where they often have a lock picking village) any more. That’s secondhand though so do with it what you want. You could ask Dev his thoughts next time you see him, I’m sure he has more firsthand (or better secondhand) knowledge on the subject
Just as in nature there is convergent evolution, the same is true of convergent designs. There's a problem or task to be done and people come to the same conclusions as to what is the best solution for that problem or task. It is quite common for multiple people to come to the same conclusions or design in the history of science or product development from tools to planes to theories or techniques. There's nothing mysterious or underhanded to any of this to me.
I like sparrows putting dimples in their high reach or monkey paw over similar picks from other manufacturers, as I like peterson having high-low & low-high versions of city rakes (sorry "ripple" picks); and a short pick 0.025 from one is a short pick 0.025 from the other, it's just price points & personal preference separating them.
Can't believe people copied my hammer design...
Lol
Given your past relationship with Sparrows (something worth mentioning, for transparency?), you could probably ask them when each pattern was released, and Peterson can chose to respond in kind or not. In any case, Peterson’s approach isn’t healthy for the sport, and they’ll have no more of my money - I’ve never opened a lock with a Peterson that I couldn’t open with a Sparrows.
I still have a relationship with sparrows as I do many Manufacturers but I’m not in their pay and receive no ongoing monetary reward from their sales of any designs. I think I was extremely fair on Peterson and described these as very well made very good value picks. I really do not want to put myself in the middle of this rivalry, only explore that which Peterson themselves have written and made
They are great, but god help you if you have a faulty one. Ken the owner is very rude even when you are being relatively cordial. They also don't replace the product they just say it's all your fault and that you don't know what you are doing and they won't replace and will only give you a discount on a replacement (after he proceeds to be snarky and talk down to you). As great as Peterson may be I wouldn't buy them again.
i'm a tool guy, i own tools, i use tools, i have mutiple tools of the same tool. picks are lock tools. how many companies make spanners, screwdrivers, hammers, pliers etc... they are all the same yet different, i don;t own any petersons but i plan on grabbing a few one day, i own other picks, it makes no difference to me who makes what first, every company has a unique looks, feel, material etc... in my opinion they are not the same because they are not exact replica copies, to be the same they would have to have the same handle with the "made in USA" thing etc just like a knockoff handbag of a premium designer.
Thank you! I have been saying this for some time now.
Thanks
Great expose'. And, I agree... a lot of effort on their part to make a point (pun intended) that does not need making. I am pleased that the picks are at least good quality picks. Funny thing, I was looking over my various favorite picks, and I realized that NONE of them are exactly the way I received them from the factory... all slightly altered... polishing, handles, slight shape filing, etc. Does this make me a rip off? or does it make me a creator? Send for my patent attorney!!!
Lol!
Simply put if you do not or cannot patent something then you can depend on other people to plagiarise it. There are only a certain number of possible pick designs capable of being produced so you have to expect a lot of similar products.
Good point well made
If you are rich buy Multipick. I've used it and it is brilliant. I just can't buy it.
Peterson is strong but too expensive for me.
Southord picks are very, very effective but damn they break easily.
Sparrows offer best value for money for a bopt string budget guy like me.
There's only so many shapes and designs that one could come up with for a pick to fit into a keyway so enabling lock picking!
Its a bit like bread, lots of variations but it's still bread at the end of the day ;-)
For sure!
Hi @Lock Noob I need a good set what do you recommend please?
I find Peterson picks a bit expensive compared to Sparrows. Sparrows is more wallet friendly and I like their profiles.
I like some profiles from all the manufacturers tbh its good to construct your own kit from a range if you can
I just ordered a peterson mayor kit
S0 what I see is Peterson Just ripped off sparrows. If I want those profiles I would buy them form sparrows ( and I have them ) . I like Peterson picks but lets be honest, sparrows makes great picks for half the price.
I say let the different brands fight it out amongst themselves. I have several different pick sets myself and find I have my favorites I prefer the offset snake (deforest I think you call them) that southord sells and Peterson makes my favorite long reach tool but I like sparrows bogata, and multipicks TOK tension wrenches. And so on and so forth...for each type of tool I have a favorite brand.
I too use a mix of brands in my kit
@@LockNoob I couldn't bring myself to breakup a kit, so I just keep a bunch of kits handy LOL.
I've also been slowly (as my budget allows) buying single picks to add to and supplement my kits. I suppose my favorite/main kit is a sparrows set I supplemented with a whole bunch of tensioners, some southord picks, 2 peterson picks, and a bunch of odds and ends such as wafer jigglers, warded skeleton keys, bump keys, combs, shims, some paperclips and bobby pins, and a few handcuff keys disguised as different things or easy to hide. The original kit also came with three 5 pin SC1 cutaway practice cylinders I kept in it, but modified into 6 pin and altered so they can be easily re-pinned without removing the core.
It's a pretty complete kit now for just about any pin tumbler style lock.
Only problem now is getting the damn zipper closed. Lol.
I also have a kinda convoluted tool kit with those little bitty rubber pinning mats/trays from sparrows, and a whole whack of different crap from hardware stores and 6 or 8 different locksmith stores. Not including pins and parts that are in another separate case. This started as a curiosity with one cheap set and a desire to learn a new skill, but quickly became a hobby with a huge collection of stuff.
This just rubs me the wrong way. If somebody makes a "knock off" of your product with "obvious design flaws", and you take that knock off and fix those design flaws, how do you end up with a product that's different than the one you started with? Doesn't that imply the knock off was actually different than your product in some substantial way? There are only so many shapes to make a lockpick in, after all. Make whatever new products you want (and I welcome cheaper picks from Peterson), but that description and especially the name come off as very childish to me.
Yeah, its all a bit odd really
I got the Peterson Gem since you said it's your favorite, I wanted to see why. I got it with the rubber handle though, really liking the feel. I am noticing it has great feedback, but I seem to have trouble keeping the tip where I want it. I'm 100% sure it's due to my inexperience. Should I be trying to use leverage and push the pins with the point of the tip or use more of a pushing action with the flat side? Also, is it the amount of feedback that makes it your favorite?
I tend to lever off the warding
Pride comes before a fall.
Indeed
Competition within this field is always good and I welcome anything that's even "similar" between manufacturers because it allows a lot more variety at various price points, but saying that other picks are "apparent knock-offs" because of their profile and reach is... well... a reach. Chill, Peterson. I'm not even saying they're ripping off Sparrows here, but... etc.
Oh for sure competition is the best
they can patent a * degree or length lol
ken peterson is known to have a huge chip on his shoulder. he's also shown in countless interactions with customers that he probably should have someone else handling that aspect of his business. mostly because of him and his actions i've given away nearly all of my peterson tools and refuse to give his company any more money. there are too many other manufacturers out there producing top drawer product and who know how to treat their customers.
This is not the first time I’ve heard someone say something like this about him. When I keep hearing the same thing from multiple sources, it makes me think maybe there’s something to it. I’ve avoided ordering from him since I was told about it. Every dollar is a vote, so it matters where you spend your dollars/votes.
I've heard this too, firsthand from the person who had the experience.
I would like to meet ken though
Just had a recent and unpleasant experience. He's an odd duck. Seems to believe that telling you about his business and personal problems will excuse lapses in customer service. Cringy and weird experience. Won't be dealing with them again.
I love Peterson picks, I still occasionaly roll with the GSP Ghost kit. But they'd wanna be awesome for the price. Currently using the dark shift set in the creeper case for work, added some BOK wrenches and the GOAT, but otherwise stock. It's just as good honestly, and still with all that costs less than a standard peterson kit. I think they need to innovate more, and bitch less. Also, something about kettles and pots......
Great vid as always mate. Cheers.
Thanks
Not been picking long having recently moved on to Sparrows picks from the cheapo set I started out with. Can anyone recommend say 6 good padlocks for me to practice on ( ideally available in the UK) many thanks. Cheers 🍻
Hard one without knowing your skill - what have you picked so far?
@@LockNoob thanks for replying so far mostly masterlock padlocks (so easy stuff) and having my best success with rocking and raking
@@rabadabadoo491 you could try the master lock excel (M1), master lock pro padlocks, Yale 125 and Abus 70/40
@@LockNoob cheers 🍻
Isn't the Sparrows worm just a copy of the Bogota? Sparrows have not been around long, I'd be interested to see any picks they ever sold that they actually came up with. Is the Peterson Gem the same as their Long Reach?
Because they've had a pick that resembles the Lunatic for a very long time. And let's not pretend Peterson invented these either, they're all plagiarists.
Well tbh, are not all picks a little bit similar to one another? There are only so many ways to meet the same function and book designs go bak into antiquity. Now wholesale ripping of an entire set, exactly, handles and all would be plagiarism for sure... I can think of one case where this happened. Edit, the word is quite different from the Bogata, but all bogata are copies of Raymundo’s original design are they not 🤷♂️
@@LockNoob I'm not convinced Raimundo came up with the wobbly, even-tip-height rake either to be honest. Like you say, there are only so many ways to do the same thing, material type, deburring and polishing are not factors in my book. Handles leave a little room for innovation I guess, not that you'd ever know, or see it.
what peterson is the most versatile set for a beginner?
I'd honestly not buy their sets at all. Buy individually. The sets don't really offer a discount, nor do you get to try a bunch of designs for less money. I like Sparrows for price and effectiveness, so I'd start there and then buy the profiles from Peterson, Southord, etc. that are similar. Over time you're gonna spend some money, but if on a budget... Peterson just isn't a good value. That's my 2 cents.
Who is coping who? And why, a pick that is needed to pick a high pin six for example can only very
A small amount from manufacturer to manufacture otherwise it simple won't work!
So it may simply be down to who designed the pick in the first place.
Who knows! Its fun too explore though!
This video was very well done Ash. Your thoughts and choice of expression make this stand out and a fair video given the facts you mentioned. 👍
I have some peterson picks. I prefer my southord slimlines but use the sparrows ssdev and other hooks as well as the peterson picks often. They all have some pros and cons.
Hats of to sticking your head into this hornet's nest to show us these picks and coming out unharmed 🙏
Thank you, its a tricky one too navigate, while trying to give some benefit of the doubt!
I love the snark. Why are y'all on that sidd of the pond so good at snark? Doesn't matter i div it!
Very interesting! Some great observations!
Thanks 🙏
Up to now, I only use Multipick picks (and I like them). Would it make sense to try some picks of Peterson or Sparows? Do they have good one, which are not avalilable from Multipick? How about tensioners? Thanks for advice.
Honestly, if you can afford Multipick, the only reason I can see you would need to go elsewhere is if they don’t have a specific profile that you can’t fashion yourself, (I’m not sure if multipick do any of the ssdev profiles, which I think are all excellent, especially the super deep hook).
Multipick is probably the European version of Peterson in that you get a premium product at a premium price.
@@adamwest8711 Thank you, Adam!
Peterson picks appear to be more expensive, at least in Europe. Typical picks from Multipick cost around 5 €/$ and Peterson more like 8. At the pry bars, Peterson is more then double the price.
I say try a pick or two from a range of manufacturers, you may find something you never knew you needed!
@@LockNoob Thanks a lot. I did not find TOK tensioners with thickness in between the "usual" steps (0.8 - 1.0 - 1.2 mm). Any hint to a scorce for 0.9, 1.1 ... mm?
Are lock pick designs patented?
I very much doubt it. - not sure they even could be
It’s so strange the way go about it, as if sparrows is knocking off peterson, when common sense tells you it’s the opposite. With sparrows being a leader in pick manufacturing and sales lately though, I’m sure they want their piece as well 😏 Very well done, you’re the first I’d seen do a side by side comparison of the two! Imo, Peterson probably wanted to be considered an option, when they otherwise wouldn’t have been, when pickers are considering the unique(formerly unique) profiles offered by Sparrows.
I think Legal Lock Picker did a comparison video too :-)
You can't rip-off a pick. Some designs work better, so everyone is going to make them. If a pick shape has unique features then you can patent it. They haven't, so anyone can make it. QED...
This is ludicrous. Imagine a big manufacturer of 6 mm drill bits taking legal action against a small manufacturer because their 6 mm drill bits are the same diameter and length! It would be laughed out of court. This attitude does Peterson's no favours whatsoever, and would dissuade people from ever wanting to buy their products again.
🤷♂️
This seems like another case of a company in the USA saying they were "knocked off" and then did precisely that and stole the design from a competitor, no doubt in a US court Peterson would win :(
I have all the big names as you would too. But out of my Peterson sparrows Multipick law lock and wendt. I Honestly like the best and feel of the sparrows it just feels so much better in my hand i much prefer them. BUT dont get me wrong every set has its day .I like to buy everything and NOT use rather than need one and i haven't got it very embarrassing . But besides that the TAX MAN PAYS FOR THE LOT AT END OF YEAR anyway so buy everything thats available i think Peterson are going for sue the company's and vise versa. They all everyone of them all look the same as each other. I would say Peterson' are feeling the PINCH in there pockets BECAUSE there are so many lockpick makers now days and its hurting there pocket 8 YEARS AGO YOU were very limited to where you could buy PICKS but its not the case now days and its really effected there Bottom line
Love your skill at being circumspect there, @Lock Noob - very careful choices of words and phrases throughout. However, I don't have to be so careful in what I say, and I can say that Peterson picks are functionally very good, but quality control and finish is terrible, and price is way over the top. I think they're hurting because Sparrows are making good picks for realistic prices, and much better finished. I say that as the owner of numerous Peterson picks. All of them needed sanding and in many cases the plastic trimmed from the handles as well. That shouldn't happen for the money. In contrast, my Multipick, and Law Lock picks needed no such tweaks. Let's face it - there are only so many permutations and combinations of reach, profile, shape, etc that will work as a lock pick. As others have pointed out - a screwdriver is a screwdriver, a hammer is a hammer. But Peterson's obvious knock-off of the Sparrows picks, along with their very obvious naming analogies, does them no credit at all.
Thank you for noticing the care I took with my words!
I can say this as I only own Sparrows snd Mad Bob picks, and the LPL curved TOK tensioners; Peterson would've done better just selling the Shrike set to their customer base without the BS explanation. Peterson sets are overpriced IMHO, especially given the quality and precision of MB picks at a fraction of their prices.
BTW Ash, I absolutely enjoy the CAREFUL wording used throughout the video. Very legalese if you will.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
En ymmärtänyt kovin paljon, mutta hyvin selitit, minkä ymmärsin. Olisi kiva saada hyviä tiirikointia, koska tiirikointi tuntuu mukavan haastavalta.
Surely this is a breach of copyright with the picks being less than 10% different?
Very interesting comments, feel a little sick, that looks like the worse kind of rewriting of history & theft.
I sincerely hope there's mutual humour going on between the two companies & expect the "sparrows nest" or "ghost sparrow" to hit the shelves in a return quip ^o^
(I prefer the High HD steel to the Gem & it's in no way marketed as a single 'catch-all' hook to compete with the Gem. Those Shrike are blatant rip offs, though was it just a 'small-batch joke'?)
👍