Going to show this to my 11 year old. He’s been playing oboe for a year and dreams of being a composer. I personally am not musically inclined, but I enjoy your videos- theory has always interested me.
12:18 Don't forget that instruments from different families can work REALLY well together. Oboe and Trumpet, for example, can blend super well together for fantastic effect. Being aware of the timbral qualities of instruments can help with figuring this out.
Honestly, it'd be great if you could cover how Shoji Meguro can write pieces for such diverse genres, because damn. You could shove him industrial neo post-prog djent and he'd probably make it work
I’d love to see him work on a song for the splatoon games because they are amazing when it comes to genre blending, seafoam shanty by the bottom feeders is my favorite it is a fast rock song with a fiddle.
8bit said “3rds and sixths are your friends for functional chord voicing” and I thought “no s***.” ...then I realized that I was biased as a woodwind player
Sixths? I rarely see those outside of experimental or contemporary works. Thirds, of course, are common, being part of nearly every chord with a name. I am also a woodwind player.
@@feeeshmeister4311 Firstly, both my comment and the video were talking about sixths in terms of the chord voicing, but it almost sounds like you’re talking about 6ths as a chord extension. The reason I get that impression is that you say thirds are “part of nearly every chord.” Voicing a chord so that there is a sixth between the third and root happens every time a chord is in first inversion. While I would agree that “drop two” voicings are “modern,” I would hesitate to call them “experimental” since it’s just a major chord arranged in a way that fits well with woodwind acoustics. To repeat, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ADD 6 CHORDS. Secondly, I should specify that I play bassoon rather than one of the upper winds, so I’m used to having a wider range between myself and the rest of a chord. My parts are also distinct from the upper winds, as I’ll be playing with the brass or strings as often as my own section. My rep also has a very small amount of classical “greats” with the rest being more modern, so I’m used to seeing thirds and sixths as interchangeable (again, the actual interval, not the chord tone). This WoT wasn’t supposed to come across as pretentious, although I can see why it might seem that way. I just wanted you to have a better understanding of how I “think” musically to appreciate my comment.
8-bit Music Theory, Not going to lie, your arrangement really made me feel nostalgic that I ended up tearing up. P4G has a very special place in my life and your arrangement really just brought me back to the past. Props to you and the instrumentalists.
"write a bunch of complete segments and then put them together later" Notably how One-Winged Angel was constructed. Wait, is this the channel I learned that on??
I kinda feel like that's how Dancing Mad was made too. Each of the four movements are completely different from eachother, but they fit together perfectly when you actually listen to it...
The violinist in me looking at those "Str." lines has an instinctive reaction like "Wtf is this, piano score for someone with three hands?". I know you've merged the parts for the different string instruments down to a single score for display there, but as a violinist used to reading solo scores, the merged score for the string section there is just kinda hilarious.
Truly amazing how you were able to get such a cohesive sound from everyone overdubbing from home!! That’s so incredibly difficult. A while video on how to do THAT would be much appreciated.
Eh, only really the pretentious shredders who can play a thousand notes a second yet have no idea how to actually play something that sounds good to listen to.
@@ErebosGR So it isn't subjective then? The most important thing that the guitar does in most rock ensembles will be playing the chords. Sure, it can play lead lines and solos too, and they can greatly improve a song, but the chords are still more important.
@@Aurora-oe2qp Of course it's subjective. Your sarcasm meter is broken. You derided "pretentious shredders", like some people used to mock hardbop jazz musicians for playing too fast. Just because it doesn't sound good to you, that doesn't make it pretentious. Arguably, the most important genre-defining element in rock music is the guitar riffs. Without them, rock music wouldn't be what it is. Also, the guitar (electric or classical) is one of the most multi-role instruments to write music for. A classical guitar composition can have a bassline, accompaniment, percussive elements and melody played at the same time by one person. What other classical instrument can do that?
This is actually really well-timed for me, since I'm experimenting writing orchestral and instrumental scores - plus I've been playing Persona 4 Dancing lately, so the cover is very timely too.
I sometimes orchestrate music from video games just for something to do when I'm bored as it's good ear training and gives me a reason to learn more about orchestral writing. Believe me though, the number of failed experiments I have saved in the scores folder on my laptop has to be more than 30 - but that's part of the fun of it and it's also how you improve. If you have the time, don't be afraid to at least give it a shot cause either way you win - you might end up with something you're happy with, and even if you don't, you'll have still learned a bit about orchestral writing. There is one very important tip that he didn't mention in this video however and that's to learn as much as possible about the instruments you include in your orchestra - their ranges, what's easy to play and what isn't, how to write idiomatically for them, which instruments blend well together and which don't, and how their timbres change depending on what part of their range they're playing in (especially for the woodwinds)
Love how your brass section is geared towards low brass. In my own writing, I've been going back and forth between how I want to group up the instruments I play, which are primarily low brass, into chords, but has been simplifying a lot more than I expected. Still playing around with various combinations to see what I like in the meantime, but gradually working towards the sound I want.
Tysm, i have been intrigued by composing music for so long and your videos have reallt been helpful for someone who has been watching them before knowing pretty much anything abt music theory, to someone who knows a little about kusic theory, so thanks
Thank you so much. I have been feeling perpetual inspired to make music for the last 5 days. I've consumed at least 60 hours of educational content at this point and have slowly pieced together about 30 seconds of my first song ever. I heard a few things from this vidoe that might help me greatly and I can't wait to try them out tomorrow after a good night's sleep. :3 I hope anyone reading this has an amazing day.
Listening to this video really makes me think about how much work you put into these projects. From having the idea to writing the music to figuring out lessons and writing a scripting to all of the editing... It's damn impressive man. Thanks for doing it.
The way you arrange it sounds very japanese game music-esque. it's really cool you really captured the essence of orchestral japanese game music! The rhythms, the harmonies, etc
I've wanted you to talk about orchestration for years, and I absolutely love it! It's in my opinion one of the absolute most important factors in how we perceive music, and one discussed not nearly as much as is should be.
Dude, your channel has helped me on my musical journey so, SO much. I’ve grown up a percussionist playing drumset, marimba, and piano mainly, but I always wanted to be a composer for something like a video game or some big band/orchestra. Over the past couple of years I think I’ve really grown a lot towards that goal, and a lot of that has been thanks to you; you’ve made learning music composition so much more intuitive and less daunting than I once saw it as while drawing it back to gaming, a hobby I’ve loved all my life. I seriously cannot give you enough thanks for how much I’ve learned from your videos.
Thanks for making this. As a Persona 4 fan, I love seeing its music getting attention, and I really enjoy seeing your thoughts through the composition and arrangement processes (one of the reasons I've also subbed to Alex Moukala and Jeremiah George). I hope to see more videos like this going forward!
Dude, when I watched the standalone video before this, I legitimately thought to myself, "this feels like Kingdom Hearts music." Then, I come here, and you say Hikari inspired you. You nailed it.
Just an idea: It would be nice if everyone (the players) makes a "behind the scene" video, so every channel get a piece of the views too. It was a collab, so I really want to see all the different perspective and work too. Upload them at the same time and link to the videos.
I really appreciate your approach to picking up these skills! You're making some really useful pedagogical videos. Thanks for getting me involved with this, it was a pleasure!
One tip I'd throw into the mix, (which is related to the MVP idea, you also hinted at it around 14:00), is that you don't need to write for an *entire* western classical orchestra. They only had ensembles that size because there was no way to amplify sound electronically. I'd suggest writing for really small ensembles, literally 4 instruments, and build on that only when you feel restricted. Because we live in the future, we can use almost any sound we want too, we're not limited to traditional instruments: my most recent orchestration was flugelhorn, trombone, flute, violin and kora. It was epic. Anyway, great video as always :)
I compose primarily for winds (Flute Choir, Wind Ensemble/Concert Band, Chamber groups) and only in the last three years have I directly focused on strings being a resident composer for a community orchestra. This past summer, I had the first "Wet Ink" concert with the orchestra. I helped mentor two up and coming composers; we worked together by them writing, and then me going through and pointing out potential issues (they are always potential issues, since they might not be when you actually get in there). I'd like to add some stuff to what 8BMT added here, because all of this is amazing stuff. And why is it amazing stuff? Because when they started work on their compositions, I gave them the link to this video and said "watch this, then rewatch it again". It helped. Anywho...that key signature...lol 1. Minimum Viable Product. This is the best thing ever. Depending on what type of composer you are (for example, I am a programmatic composer by nature - I have to be telling a story or it doesn't "feel" right), what a true MVP means to any given work can change. But during our summer, I kind of had to convince the composers that looking at the music as a whole is a very challenging thing to do when starting out. You see the forest instead of the trees that make it up, and that can trigger a musical writer's block. The "Is this good enough" shouldn't be the question, but "Am I telling the right story". Never scrap anything, either - that can take a MVP previously thought of as unusable to something that actually does work by using material from another portion. Basically, treat it as a puzzle. Make the musical puzzle pieces, but worry about the picture later. It'll pull itself together. 2. Use a Reference Track. I don't know how many times I've been like "okay, I wrote all of this but something's not sounding right". I've learned there is a three-prong consideration you have to have when writing. First, you have to understand how to write for the instrument. Second, you have to understand how to write for the performer. Finally, you have to understand how to write for the performer's instrument. In short, when I write for a Horn player, I'm writing for the Horn as an instrument, I'm writing for the person who is playing the Horn, and I'm writing for their personal instrument and it's individual limitations. Sometimes, however, this can clog the mind and you go overboard. The triplet rhythms here are awesome, and they fit the music perfectly. There's a deeper dive you can do here if you look into not only the rhythmic texture itself, but how the orchestrational choices (six instruments with 3 notes...who plays which, as an example, which are part of Tip 3) affect the performance. As much as using a reference track is amazing, if you can get the score (which I wish more composers for VGM would make available), then you can do the method of going through the score and understanding how they got from the initial idea to the score. 3. A Section is one instrument. YAS. YASSSSSSSS. Instruments aren't just broken down between Woodwinds, Brass, and Strings, although you can rarely go wrong there. It's all about blending and what are you wanting for an effect in each section. I use the Clarinet, Horn, and Viola as pivot instruments, because those three blend the best with each other. So, you can have strings with a Clarinet or Horn. Woodwinds with a Horn or Viola (perhaps Cello). And so on. One thing I can add here for future compositions is that I've learned that there are different "good" mindsets as a baseline for each section and voicing. Woodwinds, as stated here, are best in 3rd/6th harmony, although I would add the harmony below and melody above, as that lets the melody float above the harmony. For Brass, the more open the voicing, the better when you want chords, but you can certainly do tight closed harmonies (so I'd say closed when needed, otherwise open). For Strings, it's sorta 50/50 for open and closed, but the more open you make your voicing here, the fuller it sounds (clumping all the strings together sort of gives a muddy effect that can be useful, but if you keep everything drop2, it's even more powerful even if you had the same number of performers). 4. A Section is a collection of individuals. Bouncing between Tip 3 and Tip 4 is one hallmark of a great composer. There are times when you want a section to work as one, and times when you don't. This reminds me of "elements". How many moving patterns are there? At 19:20-ish, you see the Winds following Tip 3, Brass following Tip 4, and Strings following both. But if you look beyond the individual instrument families, you see a different breakdown as well emerging: element 1 is the Winds and Viola/Cello, element 2 is the melody in Violins and Upper Brass, element 3 is the Bass line in the Tuba and Double Bass (Tuba is the main part, but DB is adding emphasis to the line), and element 4 is the harmony in the mid-brass where the arrow is pointing. As important as it is to be focused on a balanced sound within a group, seeing elements go between the groups is wonderful to see...and wonderful to hear. It sort of pulls the different lines out. I've learned to compose to a three-stave score (Treble, Treble, Bass). Then afterwards, I break the individual elements apart on a new score. And it is helpful to see and aids in faster compositions for me. It does challenge me, because I'm so used to hearing things not in concert key, but in the performance key of an instrument (I used to write directly to full transposed score, and still sort of do). 5. Separate your Writer and Editor brain. I actually have got to the point where I've left the editor to a second-party. The conductor I work with is my editor mode. It helps if you can build that connection. Now, the only editor mode I go into is after the "that works" from the conductor...when I deal with pulling out "Behind Bars" and start formatting the score and parts. Through-composition, the act of composing from bar 1 to bar whatever-it-happens to be...it's kind of hard to do. I feel it's easier to do with story-driven music. One of the works I wrote for summer was one called "Dichotomy", covering a 24-hour period in a person's day, from noon to noon. I was able to break each section down to specific events throughout that day, but I also built from the beginning to end. Thematic material from the start helped inform the later sections. The big thing that brought me back to this video today was that I'm starting work on a non-ballet ballet (if you can imagine that). And that is something Tip 5 was good to hear - a lot of what I write will probably get cut. Save it off and move on. With all that being said, this was great, I love this channel, and can't wait to continue seeing what new videos come up. Keep it up 8BMT! I gotta get back to writing like we all do!
As an orchestral piece that stands on its own, and as a learning/teaching tool, I think this cover of "Your Affection" is extremely effective. However, from a more art-direction perspective, I don't think that the style of writing used for the orchestral version of "Simple and Clean" works as well for "Your Affection" given the character of the Persona series. If someone was going to write an orchestrated Persona track, I would expect it to be faster and more dynamic, rather than plodding and stately as your cover is. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, I just have a hard time with it knowing the context of the song it's based on.
That actually prompts an interesting discussion: is a cover or rearrangement obligated to be faithful to the work's original context? It certainly can be faithful to it, and you can argue that this makes the cover better or more meaningful. But when I think of, for instance, what jazz has with the great american songbook, it doesn't seem like this is a requirement at all. It feels to me like anyone can make whatever they want, out of whatever they want, and shouldn't be critiqued for veering far off of whatever inspired their work if they weren't specifically trying to stay in that style.
@@stapes5999 I only take issue with the idea that someone "shouldn't be critiqued", as I personally feel that well-meaning and well-thought-out critique is valuable regardless of context. Otherwise, I 100% agree that covers and rearrangements are in no way obligated to be faithful to the original work's context. As a matter of fact, I can think of several covers of songs that are explicitly and deliberately divorced from the original context that I really enjoy. It's very much down to personal opinion, and personally the chosen style of this rearrangement rubs me the wrong way. I don't mean to suggest that it is in any way less valuable or less worthwhile for it, nor that other people can't or shouldn't enjoy it, I merely sought to express my feelings in a way that could prove valuable to those who cared to read it. But allow me to play devil's advocate for a second. The more divorced a song becomes from its original context, the less one can argue that a given song is related. Artists will always have artistic intent, and other artists are free to interpret said artistic intent, but at what point does reinterpretation become original creation? And more to the original point, as covers of songs can often be used to bring in new fans of a series, for the sake of - shall we say, fan outreach - is it not important to keep some of the original context so a newly minted fan has a better idea of what to expect going into the series, at least musically? If the cover exists for its own sake or to satisfy the enjoyment of its creator, perhaps not, but if the creator of the series hopes to use their artistic skills to bring in an audience who would otherwise have passed up the series, I believe a balance needs to be struck between distinctness and relatedness. Admittedly this a tenuous point, but my artist friends who really like Kingdom Hearts seem like they fit the description of fandom evangelism I've attempted to describe.
I love love love watching you break down your writing process in videos like this! It's super inspiring, and I'd absolutely be on board to see you do more of these and keep sharing the lessons you learn along the way. Also, the arrangement you ended up with is almost mindbendingly beautiful. I think I even like it more than the original Your Affection.
This inspired me to get back into developing a story idea. Your tip about having a goal to reach in the song applies well to the theme of a story and the tip about writing several parts out of order helped me start writing some scenes in the middle. I have been telling my kids to "write first, edit later" but you really explained that well. Thank you!
Additional tip: For the love of God, understand the instruments you write for. Know their ranges and do NOT copy and paste the piano part onto the harp part. Don't overuse things like timpani and if you're composing using a program, do NOT let the midi audio fool you into thinking that's what it's going to sound like on real instruments. Dissonance and voicing will sound different in real life with different placement that a computer program can't quite get 100% right.
Your French horn call and response figure at 19:35 is beautiful! Great writing for horn with the open ascending intervals (I'm a horn player and arranger.) Very informative and enjoyable video overall.
Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful arrangement of this song, and your process in getting there. As someone who also comes from a rock/jazz band background and is trying to make his first forays into orchestral writing, I deeply appreciate both. Arranging for orchestra is hella daunting! But this has given me new inspiration to learn how to do it.
To me, the fact that each instrument in an orchestra does not have a defined role is part of what makes orchestral writing fun! While I've only written two orchestral works so far, it has been quite an experience. I always get the basics of my piece before doing the full orchestration. Sometimes, I write the melodies with variations and get a sketch of the whole piece before I even touch any orchestrations. I think your way of thinking about orchestration is great! The choirs of brass, woodwind, and string is very established in the orchestral medium, and they all function well together. It can make a composition sound really cohesive writing in this way. Plus, I have started using a lot more musical references in my pieces, and it has made composing MUCH easier! You're doing great composing for orchestras!
I always thought that Rise's dancing silhouette in that opening sequence was off, but after seeing it like 50 times during the video I definitely know that's the case.
Wow. Your videos normally have a whole lot of content contained with them, but this one just has so many tips that seem so useful. I don't really know where to even start with orchestral writing, so I never really bothered looking it up too much. The "think of instruments as a section but allow a voice or two to break away from the chords into their own melody/countermelody parts" is a really good starting point, as well as the "maybe just start with one of each instrument to avoid getting too bogged down with multiples of each instrument, resulting in an orchestra equaling three quintets (with strings repeated for volume/timbre purposes) which sounds a lot more manageable" idea - as well as the tips about how brass sections love to do chords all crunched up together while winds tend to be more spread out and strings can do whatever the heck they want (though you can look at my name and know that I'm most familiar with strings anyway). One more point I would've loved for you to talk about is the importance of rests. I know not every instrument plays literally every bar (and you show plenty of rests in your score in the video) but I feel like I would always try to put either too many or too few instruments to be played all at once. Though I guess this is covered under the textural stuff you were talking about with the reference track idea - I should just look over what some other orchestral works have done. Finally, it is interesting that you compare to guitar and piano. Obviously everyone comes to this video with different kinds of prior knowledge, but I don't really know how guitar and piano parts are arranged. Whenever I try to do anything on piano it's RH melody and LH chords, and so of course it always sounds remarkably like a children's song like that. And guitars - to me, it's a monophonic instrument that can't play chords because I have no idea how to do guitar chords.
TH-cam does not have enough "pro tips" on writing for orchestra. Like what chord voicings sound good in which instruments. And the emotions that a trumpet melody provides vs a violin melody. Thank you!!
Over the past year, I’ve decided to work towards being a full-time composer (shifting away from being a professional guitarist) and have been steadily building my portfolio. Orchestral music, whilst being my favourite to write, is by far the most difficult to get ‘just right’ and I think these tips are great for keeping things in perspective. I can get SO lost in all my parts, voicings, timbres, tempos and so on that, at times, it can be quite overwhelming so this video is a great reminder for me to keep things simple. Simplicity is king, even when writing complex music. I’m currently working on an orchestral arrangement of ‘Legendary Theme’ from Gitaroo Man (which is just such a beautifully written melody that I wish I’d come up with it!) and I’ll be sure to keep these tips in mind as I keep working on it. Anyway, just wanted to share that and say that I love your videos and they consistently keep me inspired.
Holy shit. Honestly, even though this is geared towards and is most helpful for aspiring orchestral composers this video has a lot of super helpful info for aspiring band writers/composers. Ideas like the "minimum viable product", thinking of songs in chunks and switching between 'writer' and 'editor' mode can be SUUUUUUPER useful if you apply them with some mates in a simple garage setting. Props again for spreading knowledge this wonderful for free. You're truly doing God's work.
Good call on using the French Horn for counterpoint to draw attention. It's one of its primary purposes in band and orchestra, erm, orchestration. Euphoniums, too.
I seriously love your stuff. Been watching for years and I can honestly say you and this channel has been one of the largest inspriations for me not letting my musical brain fall by the wayside.
As someone who does have experience writing for orchestra and wind ensembles, I love the way this way broken down. There are some techniques that I've used before without knowing, and some that I really to try now like writing out of order and separating my creative and analytical thinking.
This was entertaining! I've never had a desire to create an orchestral score, but as an ensemble player I am always interested in how each of the individual pieces fit into the complete score. Whenever we play, we are encouraged to listen to the other parts and see who we play together with, or who should be the focus and adjust accordingly!
Great job. Love this channel for all the transcription and analysis, but it's wonderful to hear more of your own arrangements too. As great as it is, props also for the cohesive production - taking separately recorded parts from so many players and mixing them so convincingly is difficult in of itself (though a great arrangement helps!).
Brilliant stuff! I'm not a composer, but I've done some arranging and can think of a tip or two of my own to share. My music theory is awful, but I do understand texture and instrumentation, so maybe this will help: Tip #1: know your tone colours, tessituras and combinations. Tone colour comes on a scale, from bright to warm - flutes and trumpets are bright, clarinets and tubas are warm. In the modern day, the 'staple sound' of the orchestra is medium-warm, with bright instruments adding contrast. Tessitura is the range an instrument is most comfortable in - typically soprano, alto, tenor, bass. A brief rundown of some common instruments, in rough score order: - Flute: soprano/sopranino, bright. Perfect for adding lightness at the top of the score. The piccolo goes one step further and adds brilliance - it's a monster, so use it sparingly. - Oboe: soprano, bright-medium. The oboe's sound is very distinctive and I'm not very good at writing for it. The cor anglais is a tenor instrument with a beautiful, mournful sound that's great for ensemble stuff. - Clarinet: soprano/alto, medium-warm. One of the lower woodwinds, but matches the strings' 'staple sound' quite well. The bass clarinet is arguably the only true bass of the woodwind section, and works great in foundational bass parts. - Bassoon: tenor/bass, bright. See, low instruments can sound bright! Despite it's name, the bassoon works really well playing brightly-coloured tenor parts. The contrabassoon is the brightest contrabass instrument and has a distinctive gruff sound in the lower-medium register that becomes smooth in the upper register. - Saxophone: alto/other, medium. I didn't know where to put them in the order, alright? A surprisingly flexible instrument, in tone colour, that's great for enriching the texture beyond traditional limits and blends well with a lot of partners. - Trumpet: soprano, bright. Iconically bombastic, with a bright tone colour. A good one to use sparingly. The piccolo trumpet is the brightest brass instrument, but the high Eb, D and F trumpets are a good middle-ground. - Horn: alto, medium-warm. Another iconic brass sound, but this one is very flexible. Great for melody and alto lines. If you've got a full section, write in high-low pairs - there's info elsewhere about this tradition. - Trombone: tenor, bright. An excellent tenor counterpart to the trumpet, but capable of warmer sounds in quieter dynamics. The bass trombone emphasises this further, and can provide surprisingly warm piano sounds and fortissimo bright sounds that sound apocalyptic. - Euphonium: tenor, warm. Not traditional in the orchestra, but a great, flexible tune-carrying instrument that has a lot in common with the cello. Sounds really strong and clear in the upper register and warmer and more harmony-ey in the lower register. - Tuba: bass/contrabass, warm. Almost mismatched with the rest of the orchestral brass, the tuba has a very warm timbre that pairs well with the horns and can support all kinds of ensembles. Bass and contrabass tubas both exist, and have their own strengths and weaknesses - the bass tuba works a lot like the euphonium, whereas the contrabass tuba is the lowest instrument in the orchestra. - Glockenspiel: sopranino, bright. A brilliant sound that makes a great decoration. The celesta sounds similar but slightly warmer. - Xylophone: soprano, bright. Warmer than a glockenspiel, but its distinctive sound is still easiest to use as a decoration. - Vibraphone: soprano/alto, medium-warm. Found its voice in jazz, but makes a great staple sound in the percussion section. - Marimba: tenor/bass, warm. I love the marimba and it's a great warm tenor/bass voice. Tone colour can very with mallets, but that's a pretty technical matter - either write the part you want and leave it to the player to choose mallets or work with whoever you're going to get to play it. - Timpani: tenor/bass, warm. Not quite flexible enough to carry the melody, but great for accenting and supporting key chord tones. - Violin: sopranino/soprano/alto, bright-medium-warm. Bowed strings have a large range and change tone colour quite a lot as they go up and down: brighter up high and warmer down low. The violin can go into the sopranino range, and becomes very bright, but tends to stay in its middle range, where its tone colour is warmer. Right at the bottom, it can get a bit gruff. - Viola: soprano/alto, medium-warm. As above, can change tone colour a lot. A viola in its upper register does not sound like a violin in its middle register. Same for its overlap with the cello. - Cello: tenor/bass, medium-warm. In its upper register, it makes a great tune-carrying, light-voiced tenor instrument. In its lower register, it makes a great support player. - Double bass: contrabass, warm. Less flexible than its smaller cousins, but performs a vital role in the contrabass register. Write it in octaves with the cello, or let it do its own thing. Similar tone colours and tessituras reinforce each other. Different tone colours and tessituras can clash, but also are what makes a tutti sound big. In my own writing, I once added a bass clarinet because I wanted to reinforce the cello in its low, warm role with something more delicate than a tuba. It worked beautifully. In the same section, I buddied up the bassoon and trombone - they share a tessitura and tone colour, and worked really well to reinforce each other. The moment the bright and warm instruments are playing together, you know it's going to sound big! Tip #2: write in SATB, or similar. Instruments from different sections can carry the same parts and work together. This can also help the daunting problem - get SATB lines on the page, then figure out which instruments you want to share, which instruments you want in octaves, which you want to play non-SATB parts and which ones you want to rest. Also, if you'll indulge me a moment of chaotic evil, Tip#X: learn alto clef and write your viola, horn and possibly clarinet parts in alto clef. It matches the tessitura of the instruments better - their middle range is in the middle of the staff, etc. - and it helped me, psychologically, to keep the parts in the right register for the instruments. Though, I do play the viola, so horses for courses.
This vid is highly encouraging me to get back to a project I started years ago doing orchestral arrangements for Crypt of the Necrodancer. It's always funny how these vids always explain things that I was subconsciously doing in my own arranging but never really explicitly directed myself towards. Under the "Treat your sections as ____" tips, I'd also add a subtip of "Don't limit your sections to just instrument families." There are quick parts in this Your Affection arrangement where specific instruments from different families are paired together that blend very nicely (such as the French Horn joining in with the bassoon at measure 5, right in the intro). It's fairly standard to meld families with rhythmic hits and big builds and such, but doing so with melodies, countermelodies, and flourishes really helps make those sections ever so varied from one another across the entire track. Wonderful!
Thank you so much, 8-Bit! This is such an awesome video--and a very well-timed one for me! I wrote a chorale for piano recently and decided to orchestrate it for a submission to a scholarship contest (I'm going to study composition at college in fall). Texturally, I felt I wanted to use some of the techniques Ravel uses in his _Pavane pour une infante defunte,_ a beautiful piece which he originally wrote for piano and orchestrated later, but it had never occurred to me to actually use it or other pieces as a reference track--that's a great idea! In addition, in my arrangement of the piece I've made quite a few mistakes in writing for the "quintets," especially the woodwinds, which I admittedly know little about; the band program at my school only has brass and three clarinets. I've voiced the woodwinds' chords far too closely and not stuck with thirds and sixths--thank you for giving the example of the four-part sax-to-orchestral-woodwind bit; that really helped me understand where I went wrong. Perhaps this could be fixed by having the woodwinds play less auxiliary material and assigning them the melody and simple harmony that the brasses can fill out with ninths and sevenths and the like? I have enjoyed many orchestral pieces which use semitone or whole-tone rubs in the clarinets or French horns for transitional parts, though, and I made use of that technique. The strings I can say I understand the balance of very well because of my experience listening to, playing in, and writing for strings-only ensembles. Even though MIDI audio does NOT do celli or violas justice, I understand how they sound in their ranges. Oboes and English horns (et cetera), not so much. Perhaps I should seek out some demonstrative videos for their ranges and techniques. I'm sorry for the long comment and I know you probably won't see it, but I think that writing down the practical application of what your video taught me not only helped me but also that it might encourage you to know how much you are helping and have helped musicians and composers--especially fledgling ones like me. Thank you again, 8-Bit, for this incredibly useful and entertaining video; you're amazing!
22:36 Funny you say that because I started an orchestration project where I'm writing something completely original for the first time and that's exactly what I started doing! It just kind of made sense to write melodic chunks of music that I may or may not put in and see what works together
Wow! Excellent information in an a wonderfully concise, simple delivery! Excellent video for those of us who have experience writing for jazz big band and marching bands. This helped immensely as I am now writing orchestral arrangements of standards for a vocalists performing with a local symphony. Thanks so much!!!!
This was an amazing video! Not only, did you write an awesome arraignment but you also explained your process in such a clear and comprehensible way. Videos like these are the reason you remain the only person I support on Patreon!
I'm learning so much from a different perspective when it comes to orchestral music as a low brass player. And honestly, as much as it pains me to say, this is knocking out the elitist parts of my thinking when it comes to video game music.
Your arrangement is so beautiful! I found myself smiling and waving my hand in the air like a conductor while listening to it because I got carried away, and also got a tear in my eye because it moved me. P4 has a special place in my heart, and its music too so this was super cool and inspiring for me. I've made one orchestral piece before, and it's so complex, but super fun!
Hikari is one of my favorite songs, and Your Affection is another. The way you took it and made it orchestral is beautiful. Its uplifting but it still has that peppyness that the lyrics give it, but with the strings instead.
This video is very interesting to me, because much of my practice in writing orchestral music came from making orchestral renditions of my favourite songs, which is how I learned the tips given in this video all on my own. At the same time, I feel like I had a slight advantage to begin with, because I've always had an appreciation for classical music, and orchestral film and video game soundtracks since I was a kid; therefore already having an interest and enthusiasm for it to begin with, even though I'm very much a metal guy. Regardless, being someone who enjoys both orchestral and metal music is the reason why I tend to compose a lot of symphonic metal to this day.
I just wrote an orchestra piece last semester for my composition project! It was thrilling, empowering, terrifying, and humbling all at once. I was just talking to my professor about what to work on next and he told me exactly the same thing as your tip #5. Letting go yields such wonderful results, but it's so easy to get mired in the hundreds of tiny details and grandiose expectations.
This is definitely a good way to start getting into orchestral writing. Most of these tips are good ways to approach writing for a full orchestra as well. The only real things to know when writing for a full wind/brass section are "less is more" and understanding complimentary instrument combinations across different sections (e.g. bassoon and horn, clarinet and viola/cello) so you can add more textures and timbres. Then there's writing for orchestral percussion...
Hi man (I guess), I found this video to be such an interesting one, for it really was something YOU did that you were talking about for the whole video. I usually really like your videos, but this one had something special in it, as I felt like listening to a friend who would just have finished a long work he'd be very proud of. I'm pretty sure I'll keep your tips in mind if I do start to make music someday (would be great to come up with this kind of project, especially if it's one with other people involved). I was waiting for you to release a new video, 'cause I wanted to share my idea of what one of your next video could be (if you feel like it's interesting enough, of course.) I actually don't know how old you are, so I wonder if you've played a lot of Nintendo DS games. Since I'm 18, that's my case. 10 years ago, I bought a game which I had never heard of before, and I ended up really liking it and playing it with my older sister. I went through the whole game several times after that, and I recently listened to the whole soundtrack, which I found to be super cool and diverse. I think it has to do with a lot of things you pointed out on your previous videos, such as leitmotivs, melodies, arrangements... If you read this message, which is already nice of you, I suggest you to listen to this soundtrack. Maybe you'll find it good enough for you to analyse some elements of it. The game is called Drawn to life:The next chapter. It's the only one of the series I played so far, but there's three other games from this franchise you can have a look at, including the prequel on DS (simply called Drawn to life). I'm pretty sure Drawn to life's songs would sound AMAZING if they were to be reorchestrated. This message is far too long by now, so thank you for reading it again, whoever you are. I congratulate you (and the other ones who collaborated with you) for all the work you've done on this channel.
I'm a simple man. I see Persona, I hit like. I'm (mostly) kidding. I've spent a lot of time arranging myself, but I never fail to learn from this channel. Thanks for all you do and know it's very appreciated!
Oh my word, THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS! This was incredibly insightful to watch. Tips 3 and 4 are going to completely change how I approach instruments, and I love your breakdown of writing/editing roles in tip 5. So accurate. *And you really nailed this arrangement!!* I LOVE the hikari vibes and also that taste of Studio Ghibli with those "stank" brass chords - Excellence 👌🏼 Stellar arrangement, stellar players (definitely checking them out!), and stellar summary. Well done and thank you to all involved! 🎶💙
Extremely helpful! I've always wanted to try arranging orchestrated pieces but struggled to understand how each instrument can function cohesively without feeling too cluttered. This video gave so much clarity and answered many questions I had trouble understanding and applying for a while. Thank you so much! I love your channel!
Probably my favorite video of yours thus far. Great advice for orchestral writing obviously, but also some amazing advice for composing as a whole. I'll admit, this one hit me pretty hard at the right time. I'm in the middle of trying to create an album with a gamey sound to it, and I've been constantly finding myself in composing ruts where I have trouble sketching out ideas in a concise or timely manner. Tip #5 especially felt close to home! Hoping I can take some of this to heart to be a bit more productive. Arrangement sounds beautiful, also. Keep up the good work~
as a brass player, clusters that are close but not *too* close have always been a really pretty and unique sound that i like, so im glad you agree lol! i also am always in editor brain, but the way you put it really helped me realize that.
So, I don't normally comment before finishing the video, but I gotta say, I love that you took inspiration from the Kingdom Hearts orchestration, that song is one of the reasons the DDD opening is one of my favorites to this day.
I've experienced a similar intimidation towards orchestration, thinking of it as sort of "nested" parts makes a lot of sense. very fun video and will probably watch again to pay closer attention to the sheet music. thank you!!
This was probably the best video Ive seen on your channel yet. This really inspires me. Especially tip #5. I can't believe this was your first orchestral arrangement. You must be hypercritical of yourself to dare think that this would have been a challenge for you. Like I can't imagine that being my first attempt at anything and sounding so pro.
Today I learned the genre of my music is “minimal viable product”
mine is "failed attempt at minimal viable product" hahaha
Same brother, same
I FEEL IT
Mine is 'non-viable overblown mess'
sameeeee
Going to show this to my 11 year old. He’s been playing oboe for a year and dreams of being a composer. I personally am not musically inclined, but I enjoy your videos- theory has always interested me.
This is really wholesome and I admire your parenting
@@pAWNproductionsDE thanks! Doing my best :)
Good luck to your 11 year old!
I’m an oboist and composer too! I wish him the very best of luck in his endeavors!
As a musician studying music it always makes me smile to see parents support their kids this way.
12:18 Don't forget that instruments from different families can work REALLY well together. Oboe and Trumpet, for example, can blend super well together for fantastic effect. Being aware of the timbral qualities of instruments can help with figuring this out.
Clarinets and violins too. It's common in a few orchestral pieces that the violins and the clarinets double each other for melodies.
French horn goes with everything 🤣
Sometimes composers mix two bassoons and two horns but it sounds like four horns.
I love mixing trumpet with oboe/clarinet they sound really good
@@ralfiralf7811 Especially with Violas and Cellos
Honestly, it'd be great if you could cover how Shoji Meguro can write pieces for such diverse genres, because damn. You could shove him industrial neo post-prog djent and he'd probably make it work
This. Shoji can write slow blues to pop to techno to rap and have it be fantastic
I’d love to see him work on a song for the splatoon games because they are amazing when it comes to genre blending, seafoam shanty by the bottom feeders is my favorite it is a fast rock song with a fiddle.
literal music demon
Yes please!
Yoko Kanno is just as versatile. Maybe it comes from practice?
8bit said “3rds and sixths are your friends for functional chord voicing” and I thought “no s***.”
...then I realized that I was biased as a woodwind player
Sixths? I rarely see those outside of experimental or contemporary works. Thirds, of course, are common, being part of nearly every chord with a name. I am also a woodwind player.
@@feeeshmeister4311 Firstly, both my comment and the video were talking about sixths in terms of the chord voicing, but it almost sounds like you’re talking about 6ths as a chord extension. The reason I get that impression is that you say thirds are “part of nearly every chord.” Voicing a chord so that there is a sixth between the third and root happens every time a chord is in first inversion. While I would agree that “drop two” voicings are “modern,” I would hesitate to call them “experimental” since it’s just a major chord arranged in a way that fits well with woodwind acoustics. To repeat, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ADD 6 CHORDS.
Secondly, I should specify that I play bassoon rather than one of the upper winds, so I’m used to having a wider range between myself and the rest of a chord. My parts are also distinct from the upper winds, as I’ll be playing with the brass or strings as often as my own section. My rep also has a very small amount of classical “greats” with the rest being more modern, so I’m used to seeing thirds and sixths as interchangeable (again, the actual interval, not the chord tone).
This WoT wasn’t supposed to come across as pretentious, although I can see why it might seem that way. I just wanted you to have a better understanding of how I “think” musically to appreciate my comment.
Daniel Bazin I hadn’t gotten to that point in the video, so yes I was talking about extensions. Thanks for clarifying.
I really needed this atm, uploaded just in time!
8-bit Music Theory,
Not going to lie, your arrangement really made me feel nostalgic that I ended up tearing up. P4G has a very special place in my life and your arrangement really just brought me back to the past. Props to you and the instrumentalists.
"write a bunch of complete segments and then put them together later" Notably how One-Winged Angel was constructed. Wait, is this the channel I learned that on??
I kinda feel like that's how Dancing Mad was made too. Each of the four movements are completely different from eachother, but they fit together perfectly when you actually listen to it...
The violinist in me looking at those "Str." lines has an instinctive reaction like "Wtf is this, piano score for someone with three hands?". I know you've merged the parts for the different string instruments down to a single score for display there, but as a violinist used to reading solo scores, the merged score for the string section there is just kinda hilarious.
Not to mention “Wind” and “Brass”. I get it though. I would rather look at that to analyze than a 50-part score.
Same for me. Also funny as a violist to see the viola part in bass clef.
it's also fun for me to see the french horn sometimes in bass clef when it's more typical to see it in treble lol
"Tip 1: Be a musical genius" - Papa 8-bit
Thanks for the belly laugh. This was right on point. I am so impressed with Mr. 8bit Music Theory, man.
naw, this is still very much ABC
Truly amazing how you were able to get such a cohesive sound from everyone overdubbing from home!! That’s so incredibly difficult. A while video on how to do THAT would be much appreciated.
your arrangement definitely sounds like a mario galaxy song!
Yo imagine an after-credits scene where Peach and Mario goes to visit Rosalina after everything. His arrangement precisely gives that scene to me
I think has a lot to do with the instruments he choosed
I my you're right
Man! I was gonna say that!
I was gonna say Odyssey, but yeah, totally grandiose Mario for sure!
I really love how this turned out. Hearing it all come together is so satisfying!
Thanks for having me! :)
"And the guitar player just strums some chords."
Woah, you just triggered every guitarist in the world.
Eh, only really the pretentious shredders who can play a thousand notes a second yet have no idea how to actually play something that sounds good to listen to.
The ones that got offended deserve it
@@Aurora-oe2qp It's as if music, and art in general, is subjective...
/s
@@ErebosGR So it isn't subjective then?
The most important thing that the guitar does in most rock ensembles will be playing the chords. Sure, it can play lead lines and solos too, and they can greatly improve a song, but the chords are still more important.
@@Aurora-oe2qp Of course it's subjective. Your sarcasm meter is broken.
You derided "pretentious shredders", like some people used to mock hardbop jazz musicians for playing too fast. Just because it doesn't sound good to you, that doesn't make it pretentious.
Arguably, the most important genre-defining element in rock music is the guitar riffs. Without them, rock music wouldn't be what it is.
Also, the guitar (electric or classical) is one of the most multi-role instruments to write music for. A classical guitar composition can have a bassline, accompaniment, percussive elements and melody played at the same time by one person. What other classical instrument can do that?
This is actually really well-timed for me, since I'm experimenting writing orchestral and instrumental scores - plus I've been playing Persona 4 Dancing lately, so the cover is very timely too.
Same for me💛
"beeg violin" 😂
I think the only thing stopping me from creating something like this is the sheer frustration of trying to get it perfect and fear of failure.
I sometimes orchestrate music from video games just for something to do when I'm bored as it's good ear training and gives me a reason to learn more about orchestral writing. Believe me though, the number of failed experiments I have saved in the scores folder on my laptop has to be more than 30 - but that's part of the fun of it and it's also how you improve. If you have the time, don't be afraid to at least give it a shot cause either way you win - you might end up with something you're happy with, and even if you don't, you'll have still learned a bit about orchestral writing. There is one very important tip that he didn't mention in this video however and that's to learn as much as possible about the instruments you include in your orchestra - their ranges, what's easy to play and what isn't, how to write idiomatically for them, which instruments blend well together and which don't, and how their timbres change depending on what part of their range they're playing in (especially for the woodwinds)
Why are you speaking my mind? I've given up so many times just because I can't hear myself being so bad 😅
I wouldn't even know where to begin learning how to do this... x_x
Love how your brass section is geared towards low brass. In my own writing, I've been going back and forth between how I want to group up the instruments I play, which are primarily low brass, into chords, but has been simplifying a lot more than I expected. Still playing around with various combinations to see what I like in the meantime, but gradually working towards the sound I want.
Tysm, i have been intrigued by composing music for so long and your videos have reallt been helpful for someone who has been watching them before knowing pretty much anything abt music theory, to someone who knows a little about kusic theory, so thanks
I had the same transformation. It's really fun to make music and I often come back to this channel for the theory and examples
I see Persona 4 on thumbnail, I click. Simple
Mood
This reads like a 4chan greentext
-be me
-see Persona 4
-click
-life good. No Regret
Honestly, same
Same
Thank you so much.
I have been feeling perpetual inspired to make music for the last 5 days.
I've consumed at least 60 hours of educational content at this point and have slowly pieced together about 30 seconds of my first song ever.
I heard a few things from this vidoe that might help me greatly and I can't wait to try them out tomorrow after a good night's sleep. :3
I hope anyone reading this has an amazing day.
Listening to this video really makes me think about how much work you put into these projects. From having the idea to writing the music to figuring out lessons and writing a scripting to all of the editing... It's damn impressive man. Thanks for doing it.
The way you arrange it sounds very japanese game music-esque. it's really cool you really captured the essence of orchestral japanese game music! The rhythms, the harmonies, etc
I've wanted you to talk about orchestration for years, and I absolutely love it! It's in my opinion one of the absolute most important factors in how we perceive music, and one discussed not nearly as much as is should be.
You blew my mind with your arrangement of Your Affection. Just wow.
Dude, your channel has helped me on my musical journey so, SO much. I’ve grown up a percussionist playing drumset, marimba, and piano mainly, but I always wanted to be a composer for something like a video game or some big band/orchestra. Over the past couple of years I think I’ve really grown a lot towards that goal, and a lot of that has been thanks to you; you’ve made learning music composition so much more intuitive and less daunting than I once saw it as while drawing it back to gaming, a hobby I’ve loved all my life. I seriously cannot give you enough thanks for how much I’ve learned from your videos.
Thanks for making this. As a Persona 4 fan, I love seeing its music getting attention, and I really enjoy seeing your thoughts through the composition and arrangement processes (one of the reasons I've also subbed to Alex Moukala and Jeremiah George). I hope to see more videos like this going forward!
Dude, when I watched the standalone video before this, I legitimately thought to myself, "this feels like Kingdom Hearts music."
Then, I come here, and you say Hikari inspired you. You nailed it.
Just an idea: It would be nice if everyone (the players) makes a "behind the scene" video, so every channel get a piece of the views too. It was a collab, so I really want to see all the different perspective and work too. Upload them at the same time and link to the videos.
Yeah that sounds cool though dunno if the others he collab with would do it.
I feel like every wind player's would start with "Ugh, B Major? Really?"
I really appreciate your approach to picking up these skills! You're making some really useful pedagogical videos. Thanks for getting me involved with this, it was a pleasure!
One tip I'd throw into the mix, (which is related to the MVP idea, you also hinted at it around 14:00), is that you don't need to write for an *entire* western classical orchestra. They only had ensembles that size because there was no way to amplify sound electronically. I'd suggest writing for really small ensembles, literally 4 instruments, and build on that only when you feel restricted. Because we live in the future, we can use almost any sound we want too, we're not limited to traditional instruments: my most recent orchestration was flugelhorn, trombone, flute, violin and kora. It was epic.
Anyway, great video as always :)
Probably the best orchestral writing resource I have found to date.
Tip #5 is really invaluable. I've never seen somebody phrase my perceived lack of creativity any better.
I compose primarily for winds (Flute Choir, Wind Ensemble/Concert Band, Chamber groups) and only in the last three years have I directly focused on strings being a resident composer for a community orchestra. This past summer, I had the first "Wet Ink" concert with the orchestra. I helped mentor two up and coming composers; we worked together by them writing, and then me going through and pointing out potential issues (they are always potential issues, since they might not be when you actually get in there). I'd like to add some stuff to what 8BMT added here, because all of this is amazing stuff. And why is it amazing stuff? Because when they started work on their compositions, I gave them the link to this video and said "watch this, then rewatch it again". It helped.
Anywho...that key signature...lol
1. Minimum Viable Product. This is the best thing ever. Depending on what type of composer you are (for example, I am a programmatic composer by nature - I have to be telling a story or it doesn't "feel" right), what a true MVP means to any given work can change. But during our summer, I kind of had to convince the composers that looking at the music as a whole is a very challenging thing to do when starting out. You see the forest instead of the trees that make it up, and that can trigger a musical writer's block. The "Is this good enough" shouldn't be the question, but "Am I telling the right story". Never scrap anything, either - that can take a MVP previously thought of as unusable to something that actually does work by using material from another portion.
Basically, treat it as a puzzle. Make the musical puzzle pieces, but worry about the picture later. It'll pull itself together.
2. Use a Reference Track. I don't know how many times I've been like "okay, I wrote all of this but something's not sounding right". I've learned there is a three-prong consideration you have to have when writing. First, you have to understand how to write for the instrument. Second, you have to understand how to write for the performer. Finally, you have to understand how to write for the performer's instrument. In short, when I write for a Horn player, I'm writing for the Horn as an instrument, I'm writing for the person who is playing the Horn, and I'm writing for their personal instrument and it's individual limitations. Sometimes, however, this can clog the mind and you go overboard. The triplet rhythms here are awesome, and they fit the music perfectly. There's a deeper dive you can do here if you look into not only the rhythmic texture itself, but how the orchestrational choices (six instruments with 3 notes...who plays which, as an example, which are part of Tip 3) affect the performance.
As much as using a reference track is amazing, if you can get the score (which I wish more composers for VGM would make available), then you can do the method of going through the score and understanding how they got from the initial idea to the score.
3. A Section is one instrument. YAS. YASSSSSSSS. Instruments aren't just broken down between Woodwinds, Brass, and Strings, although you can rarely go wrong there. It's all about blending and what are you wanting for an effect in each section. I use the Clarinet, Horn, and Viola as pivot instruments, because those three blend the best with each other. So, you can have strings with a Clarinet or Horn. Woodwinds with a Horn or Viola (perhaps Cello). And so on.
One thing I can add here for future compositions is that I've learned that there are different "good" mindsets as a baseline for each section and voicing. Woodwinds, as stated here, are best in 3rd/6th harmony, although I would add the harmony below and melody above, as that lets the melody float above the harmony. For Brass, the more open the voicing, the better when you want chords, but you can certainly do tight closed harmonies (so I'd say closed when needed, otherwise open). For Strings, it's sorta 50/50 for open and closed, but the more open you make your voicing here, the fuller it sounds (clumping all the strings together sort of gives a muddy effect that can be useful, but if you keep everything drop2, it's even more powerful even if you had the same number of performers).
4. A Section is a collection of individuals. Bouncing between Tip 3 and Tip 4 is one hallmark of a great composer. There are times when you want a section to work as one, and times when you don't. This reminds me of "elements". How many moving patterns are there? At 19:20-ish, you see the Winds following Tip 3, Brass following Tip 4, and Strings following both. But if you look beyond the individual instrument families, you see a different breakdown as well emerging: element 1 is the Winds and Viola/Cello, element 2 is the melody in Violins and Upper Brass, element 3 is the Bass line in the Tuba and Double Bass (Tuba is the main part, but DB is adding emphasis to the line), and element 4 is the harmony in the mid-brass where the arrow is pointing. As important as it is to be focused on a balanced sound within a group, seeing elements go between the groups is wonderful to see...and wonderful to hear. It sort of pulls the different lines out.
I've learned to compose to a three-stave score (Treble, Treble, Bass). Then afterwards, I break the individual elements apart on a new score. And it is helpful to see and aids in faster compositions for me. It does challenge me, because I'm so used to hearing things not in concert key, but in the performance key of an instrument (I used to write directly to full transposed score, and still sort of do).
5. Separate your Writer and Editor brain. I actually have got to the point where I've left the editor to a second-party. The conductor I work with is my editor mode. It helps if you can build that connection. Now, the only editor mode I go into is after the "that works" from the conductor...when I deal with pulling out "Behind Bars" and start formatting the score and parts.
Through-composition, the act of composing from bar 1 to bar whatever-it-happens to be...it's kind of hard to do. I feel it's easier to do with story-driven music. One of the works I wrote for summer was one called "Dichotomy", covering a 24-hour period in a person's day, from noon to noon. I was able to break each section down to specific events throughout that day, but I also built from the beginning to end. Thematic material from the start helped inform the later sections.
The big thing that brought me back to this video today was that I'm starting work on a non-ballet ballet (if you can imagine that). And that is something Tip 5 was good to hear - a lot of what I write will probably get cut. Save it off and move on.
With all that being said, this was great, I love this channel, and can't wait to continue seeing what new videos come up. Keep it up 8BMT! I gotta get back to writing like we all do!
As an orchestral piece that stands on its own, and as a learning/teaching tool, I think this cover of "Your Affection" is extremely effective. However, from a more art-direction perspective, I don't think that the style of writing used for the orchestral version of "Simple and Clean" works as well for "Your Affection" given the character of the Persona series. If someone was going to write an orchestrated Persona track, I would expect it to be faster and more dynamic, rather than plodding and stately as your cover is. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, I just have a hard time with it knowing the context of the song it's based on.
That actually prompts an interesting discussion: is a cover or rearrangement obligated to be faithful to the work's original context? It certainly can be faithful to it, and you can argue that this makes the cover better or more meaningful. But when I think of, for instance, what jazz has with the great american songbook, it doesn't seem like this is a requirement at all. It feels to me like anyone can make whatever they want, out of whatever they want, and shouldn't be critiqued for veering far off of whatever inspired their work if they weren't specifically trying to stay in that style.
@@stapes5999 I only take issue with the idea that someone "shouldn't be critiqued", as I personally feel that well-meaning and well-thought-out critique is valuable regardless of context. Otherwise, I 100% agree that covers and rearrangements are in no way obligated to be faithful to the original work's context. As a matter of fact, I can think of several covers of songs that are explicitly and deliberately divorced from the original context that I really enjoy. It's very much down to personal opinion, and personally the chosen style of this rearrangement rubs me the wrong way. I don't mean to suggest that it is in any way less valuable or less worthwhile for it, nor that other people can't or shouldn't enjoy it, I merely sought to express my feelings in a way that could prove valuable to those who cared to read it.
But allow me to play devil's advocate for a second. The more divorced a song becomes from its original context, the less one can argue that a given song is related. Artists will always have artistic intent, and other artists are free to interpret said artistic intent, but at what point does reinterpretation become original creation? And more to the original point, as covers of songs can often be used to bring in new fans of a series, for the sake of - shall we say, fan outreach - is it not important to keep some of the original context so a newly minted fan has a better idea of what to expect going into the series, at least musically? If the cover exists for its own sake or to satisfy the enjoyment of its creator, perhaps not, but if the creator of the series hopes to use their artistic skills to bring in an audience who would otherwise have passed up the series, I believe a balance needs to be struck between distinctness and relatedness. Admittedly this a tenuous point, but my artist friends who really like Kingdom Hearts seem like they fit the description of fandom evangelism I've attempted to describe.
This is what was tickling my brain. I also really like this arrangement but it sounds way more Final Fantasy than Persona.
Stop it you two, no constructive disagreements on TH-cam, you're breaking the meta.
Edit: I hope this becomes the new meta.
i can feel the fabric of the universe crumble as you guys - in the youtube comment section - disagree without hate speech
I love love love watching you break down your writing process in videos like this! It's super inspiring, and I'd absolutely be on board to see you do more of these and keep sharing the lessons you learn along the way.
Also, the arrangement you ended up with is almost mindbendingly beautiful. I think I even like it more than the original Your Affection.
My compliments on the arrangement. It was quite good. Keep at it.
This inspired me to get back into developing a story idea. Your tip about having a goal to reach in the song applies well to the theme of a story and the tip about writing several parts out of order helped me start writing some scenes in the middle. I have been telling my kids to "write first, edit later" but you really explained that well. Thank you!
Additional tip: For the love of God, understand the instruments you write for. Know their ranges and do NOT copy and paste the piano part onto the harp part. Don't overuse things like timpani and if you're composing using a program, do NOT let the midi audio fool you into thinking that's what it's going to sound like on real instruments. Dissonance and voicing will sound different in real life with different placement that a computer program can't quite get 100% right.
@bynezal thank you very much
FINALLY youtube reccommended a very useful video, since i just started trying writing for orchestra.
Your French horn call and response figure at 19:35 is beautiful! Great writing for horn with the open ascending intervals (I'm a horn player and arranger.) Very informative and enjoyable video overall.
This is so helpful. Thank you so much!!!
Dude.... this was the most useful 25 minutes of the past 3 mounths. Amazing content, explained brilliantly.
Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful arrangement of this song, and your process in getting there. As someone who also comes from a rock/jazz band background and is trying to make his first forays into orchestral writing, I deeply appreciate both. Arranging for orchestra is hella daunting! But this has given me new inspiration to learn how to do it.
To me, the fact that each instrument in an orchestra does not have a defined role is part of what makes orchestral writing fun! While I've only written two orchestral works so far, it has been quite an experience. I always get the basics of my piece before doing the full orchestration. Sometimes, I write the melodies with variations and get a sketch of the whole piece before I even touch any orchestrations.
I think your way of thinking about orchestration is great! The choirs of brass, woodwind, and string is very established in the orchestral medium, and they all function well together. It can make a composition sound really cohesive writing in this way. Plus, I have started using a lot more musical references in my pieces, and it has made composing MUCH easier!
You're doing great composing for orchestras!
I always thought that Rise's dancing silhouette in that opening sequence was off, but after seeing it like 50 times during the video I definitely know that's the case.
Wow. Your videos normally have a whole lot of content contained with them, but this one just has so many tips that seem so useful. I don't really know where to even start with orchestral writing, so I never really bothered looking it up too much. The "think of instruments as a section but allow a voice or two to break away from the chords into their own melody/countermelody parts" is a really good starting point, as well as the "maybe just start with one of each instrument to avoid getting too bogged down with multiples of each instrument, resulting in an orchestra equaling three quintets (with strings repeated for volume/timbre purposes) which sounds a lot more manageable" idea - as well as the tips about how brass sections love to do chords all crunched up together while winds tend to be more spread out and strings can do whatever the heck they want (though you can look at my name and know that I'm most familiar with strings anyway).
One more point I would've loved for you to talk about is the importance of rests. I know not every instrument plays literally every bar (and you show plenty of rests in your score in the video) but I feel like I would always try to put either too many or too few instruments to be played all at once. Though I guess this is covered under the textural stuff you were talking about with the reference track idea - I should just look over what some other orchestral works have done.
Finally, it is interesting that you compare to guitar and piano. Obviously everyone comes to this video with different kinds of prior knowledge, but I don't really know how guitar and piano parts are arranged. Whenever I try to do anything on piano it's RH melody and LH chords, and so of course it always sounds remarkably like a children's song like that. And guitars - to me, it's a monophonic instrument that can't play chords because I have no idea how to do guitar chords.
Revisiting this video 3yrs later as i write orchestral metal, i did the same for ambient music on your DKC aquatic ambience video and often revisit it
I'll be watching this sometime within the upcoming week. Thanks for covering this!
TH-cam does not have enough "pro tips" on writing for orchestra. Like what chord voicings sound good in which instruments. And the emotions that a trumpet melody provides vs a violin melody. Thank you!!
Petition for a David Bruce-style follow-up video with your collaborators!
i’m so glad you’re touching on persona music that isn’t from 5!
Taking a “Scoring for Media” class in a week for college. Very useful tips here to think about. Thanks guy!!
Over the past year, I’ve decided to work towards being a full-time composer (shifting away from being a professional guitarist) and have been steadily building my portfolio. Orchestral music, whilst being my favourite to write, is by far the most difficult to get ‘just right’ and I think these tips are great for keeping things in perspective. I can get SO lost in all my parts, voicings, timbres, tempos and so on that, at times, it can be quite overwhelming so this video is a great reminder for me to keep things simple. Simplicity is king, even when writing complex music.
I’m currently working on an orchestral arrangement of ‘Legendary Theme’ from Gitaroo Man (which is just such a beautifully written melody that I wish I’d come up with it!) and I’ll be sure to keep these tips in mind as I keep working on it. Anyway, just wanted to share that and say that I love your videos and they consistently keep me inspired.
Holy shit.
Honestly, even though this is geared towards and is most helpful for aspiring orchestral composers this video has a lot of super helpful info for aspiring band writers/composers. Ideas like the "minimum viable product", thinking of songs in chunks and switching between 'writer' and 'editor' mode can be SUUUUUUPER useful if you apply them with some mates in a simple garage setting. Props again for spreading knowledge this wonderful for free. You're truly doing God's work.
Good call on using the French Horn for counterpoint to draw attention. It's one of its primary purposes in band and orchestra, erm, orchestration. Euphoniums, too.
I seriously love your stuff. Been watching for years and I can honestly say you and this channel has been one of the largest inspriations for me not letting my musical brain fall by the wayside.
As someone who does have experience writing for orchestra and wind ensembles, I love the way this way broken down. There are some techniques that I've used before without knowing, and some that I really to try now like writing out of order and separating my creative and analytical thinking.
This was entertaining! I've never had a desire to create an orchestral score, but as an ensemble player I am always interested in how each of the individual pieces fit into the complete score. Whenever we play, we are encouraged to listen to the other parts and see who we play together with, or who should be the focus and adjust accordingly!
Great job. Love this channel for all the transcription and analysis, but it's wonderful to hear more of your own arrangements too. As great as it is, props also for the cohesive production - taking separately recorded parts from so many players and mixing them so convincingly is difficult in of itself (though a great arrangement helps!).
Brilliant stuff! I'm not a composer, but I've done some arranging and can think of a tip or two of my own to share. My music theory is awful, but I do understand texture and instrumentation, so maybe this will help:
Tip #1: know your tone colours, tessituras and combinations. Tone colour comes on a scale, from bright to warm - flutes and trumpets are bright, clarinets and tubas are warm. In the modern day, the 'staple sound' of the orchestra is medium-warm, with bright instruments adding contrast. Tessitura is the range an instrument is most comfortable in - typically soprano, alto, tenor, bass. A brief rundown of some common instruments, in rough score order:
- Flute: soprano/sopranino, bright. Perfect for adding lightness at the top of the score. The piccolo goes one step further and adds brilliance - it's a monster, so use it sparingly.
- Oboe: soprano, bright-medium. The oboe's sound is very distinctive and I'm not very good at writing for it. The cor anglais is a tenor instrument with a beautiful, mournful sound that's great for ensemble stuff.
- Clarinet: soprano/alto, medium-warm. One of the lower woodwinds, but matches the strings' 'staple sound' quite well. The bass clarinet is arguably the only true bass of the woodwind section, and works great in foundational bass parts.
- Bassoon: tenor/bass, bright. See, low instruments can sound bright! Despite it's name, the bassoon works really well playing brightly-coloured tenor parts. The contrabassoon is the brightest contrabass instrument and has a distinctive gruff sound in the lower-medium register that becomes smooth in the upper register.
- Saxophone: alto/other, medium. I didn't know where to put them in the order, alright? A surprisingly flexible instrument, in tone colour, that's great for enriching the texture beyond traditional limits and blends well with a lot of partners.
- Trumpet: soprano, bright. Iconically bombastic, with a bright tone colour. A good one to use sparingly. The piccolo trumpet is the brightest brass instrument, but the high Eb, D and F trumpets are a good middle-ground.
- Horn: alto, medium-warm. Another iconic brass sound, but this one is very flexible. Great for melody and alto lines. If you've got a full section, write in high-low pairs - there's info elsewhere about this tradition.
- Trombone: tenor, bright. An excellent tenor counterpart to the trumpet, but capable of warmer sounds in quieter dynamics. The bass trombone emphasises this further, and can provide surprisingly warm piano sounds and fortissimo bright sounds that sound apocalyptic.
- Euphonium: tenor, warm. Not traditional in the orchestra, but a great, flexible tune-carrying instrument that has a lot in common with the cello. Sounds really strong and clear in the upper register and warmer and more harmony-ey in the lower register.
- Tuba: bass/contrabass, warm. Almost mismatched with the rest of the orchestral brass, the tuba has a very warm timbre that pairs well with the horns and can support all kinds of ensembles. Bass and contrabass tubas both exist, and have their own strengths and weaknesses - the bass tuba works a lot like the euphonium, whereas the contrabass tuba is the lowest instrument in the orchestra.
- Glockenspiel: sopranino, bright. A brilliant sound that makes a great decoration. The celesta sounds similar but slightly warmer.
- Xylophone: soprano, bright. Warmer than a glockenspiel, but its distinctive sound is still easiest to use as a decoration.
- Vibraphone: soprano/alto, medium-warm. Found its voice in jazz, but makes a great staple sound in the percussion section.
- Marimba: tenor/bass, warm. I love the marimba and it's a great warm tenor/bass voice. Tone colour can very with mallets, but that's a pretty technical matter - either write the part you want and leave it to the player to choose mallets or work with whoever you're going to get to play it.
- Timpani: tenor/bass, warm. Not quite flexible enough to carry the melody, but great for accenting and supporting key chord tones.
- Violin: sopranino/soprano/alto, bright-medium-warm. Bowed strings have a large range and change tone colour quite a lot as they go up and down: brighter up high and warmer down low. The violin can go into the sopranino range, and becomes very bright, but tends to stay in its middle range, where its tone colour is warmer. Right at the bottom, it can get a bit gruff.
- Viola: soprano/alto, medium-warm. As above, can change tone colour a lot. A viola in its upper register does not sound like a violin in its middle register. Same for its overlap with the cello.
- Cello: tenor/bass, medium-warm. In its upper register, it makes a great tune-carrying, light-voiced tenor instrument. In its lower register, it makes a great support player.
- Double bass: contrabass, warm. Less flexible than its smaller cousins, but performs a vital role in the contrabass register. Write it in octaves with the cello, or let it do its own thing.
Similar tone colours and tessituras reinforce each other. Different tone colours and tessituras can clash, but also are what makes a tutti sound big. In my own writing, I once added a bass clarinet because I wanted to reinforce the cello in its low, warm role with something more delicate than a tuba. It worked beautifully. In the same section, I buddied up the bassoon and trombone - they share a tessitura and tone colour, and worked really well to reinforce each other. The moment the bright and warm instruments are playing together, you know it's going to sound big!
Tip #2: write in SATB, or similar. Instruments from different sections can carry the same parts and work together. This can also help the daunting problem - get SATB lines on the page, then figure out which instruments you want to share, which instruments you want in octaves, which you want to play non-SATB parts and which ones you want to rest.
Also, if you'll indulge me a moment of chaotic evil, Tip#X: learn alto clef and write your viola, horn and possibly clarinet parts in alto clef. It matches the tessitura of the instruments better - their middle range is in the middle of the staff, etc. - and it helped me, psychologically, to keep the parts in the right register for the instruments. Though, I do play the viola, so horses for courses.
Never mind 8-bit, you're the best Music Theory on TH-cam. Excellent arrangement, presentation, everything. Thanks!
I feel like a lot of these tips are good for arranging in general whether orchestral or not :-)
I like how, between this and the woodwind composition video, you're taking us along on your journey as a composer.
This vid is highly encouraging me to get back to a project I started years ago doing orchestral arrangements for Crypt of the Necrodancer. It's always funny how these vids always explain things that I was subconsciously doing in my own arranging but never really explicitly directed myself towards.
Under the "Treat your sections as ____" tips, I'd also add a subtip of "Don't limit your sections to just instrument families." There are quick parts in this Your Affection arrangement where specific instruments from different families are paired together that blend very nicely (such as the French Horn joining in with the bassoon at measure 5, right in the intro). It's fairly standard to meld families with rhythmic hits and big builds and such, but doing so with melodies, countermelodies, and flourishes really helps make those sections ever so varied from one another across the entire track. Wonderful!
Thank you so much, 8-Bit! This is such an awesome video--and a very well-timed one for me! I wrote a chorale for piano recently and decided to orchestrate it for a submission to a scholarship contest (I'm going to study composition at college in fall). Texturally, I felt I wanted to use some of the techniques Ravel uses in his _Pavane pour une infante defunte,_ a beautiful piece which he originally wrote for piano and orchestrated later, but it had never occurred to me to actually use it or other pieces as a reference track--that's a great idea!
In addition, in my arrangement of the piece I've made quite a few mistakes in writing for the "quintets," especially the woodwinds, which I admittedly know little about; the band program at my school only has brass and three clarinets. I've voiced the woodwinds' chords far too closely and not stuck with thirds and sixths--thank you for giving the example of the four-part sax-to-orchestral-woodwind bit; that really helped me understand where I went wrong. Perhaps this could be fixed by having the woodwinds play less auxiliary material and assigning them the melody and simple harmony that the brasses can fill out with ninths and sevenths and the like? I have enjoyed many orchestral pieces which use semitone or whole-tone rubs in the clarinets or French horns for transitional parts, though, and I made use of that technique. The strings I can say I understand the balance of very well because of my experience listening to, playing in, and writing for strings-only ensembles. Even though MIDI audio does NOT do celli or violas justice, I understand how they sound in their ranges. Oboes and English horns (et cetera), not so much. Perhaps I should seek out some demonstrative videos for their ranges and techniques.
I'm sorry for the long comment and I know you probably won't see it, but I think that writing down the practical application of what your video taught me not only helped me but also that it might encourage you to know how much you are helping and have helped musicians and composers--especially fledgling ones like me. Thank you again, 8-Bit, for this incredibly useful and entertaining video; you're amazing!
22:36 Funny you say that because I started an orchestration project where I'm writing something completely original for the first time and that's exactly what I started doing! It just kind of made sense to write melodic chunks of music that I may or may not put in and see what works together
Your fifth tip is actually really helpful for anything remotely creative.
Wow! Excellent information in an a wonderfully concise, simple delivery! Excellent video for those of us who have experience writing for jazz big band and marching bands. This helped immensely as I am now writing orchestral arrangements of standards for a vocalists performing with a local symphony. Thanks so much!!!!
This video would translate wonderfully to a big ol' poster infographic 🙌☺️ Amazing video!!!
This was an amazing video! Not only, did you write an awesome arraignment but you also explained your process in such a clear and comprehensible way. Videos like these are the reason you remain the only person I support on Patreon!
I'm learning so much from a different perspective when it comes to orchestral music as a low brass player. And honestly, as much as it pains me to say, this is knocking out the elitist parts of my thinking when it comes to video game music.
Your arrangement is so beautiful! I found myself smiling and waving my hand in the air like a conductor while listening to it because I got carried away, and also got a tear in my eye because it moved me. P4 has a special place in my heart, and its music too so this was super cool and inspiring for me. I've made one orchestral piece before, and it's so complex, but super fun!
This is very helpful for me, someone who wants to learn to fully utilize an orchestra. Thanks for this awesome, informative video!
This is all great advice! You’re a great resource for composers.
Hikari is one of my favorite songs, and Your Affection is another. The way you took it and made it orchestral is beautiful. Its uplifting but it still has that peppyness that the lyrics give it, but with the strings instead.
Your arrangement sounds INCREDIBLE! Bravo!
This video is very interesting to me, because much of my practice in writing orchestral music came from making orchestral renditions of my favourite songs, which is how I learned the tips given in this video all on my own. At the same time, I feel like I had a slight advantage to begin with, because I've always had an appreciation for classical music, and orchestral film and video game soundtracks since I was a kid; therefore already having an interest and enthusiasm for it to begin with, even though I'm very much a metal guy. Regardless, being someone who enjoys both orchestral and metal music is the reason why I tend to compose a lot of symphonic metal to this day.
Awesome video & arrangement! Thanks for sharing!
I've never heard the original song, so now your version is the one I'll know lol. It's amazing!
Was not expecting this to be so in depth and informational! Thank you for sharing this! The piece sounds amazing
I got chills listening to this. Take an extra level in Composer +++
I just wrote an orchestra piece last semester for my composition project! It was thrilling, empowering, terrifying, and humbling all at once. I was just talking to my professor about what to work on next and he told me exactly the same thing as your tip #5. Letting go yields such wonderful results, but it's so easy to get mired in the hundreds of tiny details and grandiose expectations.
Your arrangement was so emotional. That was incredible.
This is definitely a good way to start getting into orchestral writing.
Most of these tips are good ways to approach writing for a full orchestra as well. The only real things to know when writing for a full wind/brass section are "less is more" and understanding complimentary instrument combinations across different sections (e.g. bassoon and horn, clarinet and viola/cello) so you can add more textures and timbres.
Then there's writing for orchestral percussion...
Those switching triplets in the brass section you talk about at 11:03 can only remind me of Star Wars! Good to have lots and lots of inspiration :)
Hi man (I guess), I found this video to be such an interesting one, for it really was something YOU did that you were talking about for the whole video.
I usually really like your videos, but this one had something special in it, as I felt like listening to a friend who would just have finished a long work he'd be very proud of. I'm pretty sure I'll keep your tips in mind if I do start to make music someday (would be great to come up with this kind of project, especially if it's one with other people involved).
I was waiting for you to release a new video, 'cause I wanted to share my idea of what one of your next video could be (if you feel like it's interesting enough, of course.)
I actually don't know how old you are, so I wonder if you've played a lot of Nintendo DS games.
Since I'm 18, that's my case.
10 years ago, I bought a game which I had never heard of before, and I ended up really liking it and playing it with my older sister. I went through the whole game several times after that, and I recently listened to the whole soundtrack, which I found to be super cool and diverse.
I think it has to do with a lot of things you pointed out on your previous videos, such as leitmotivs, melodies, arrangements...
If you read this message, which is already nice of you, I suggest you to listen to this soundtrack.
Maybe you'll find it good enough for you to analyse some elements of it.
The game is called Drawn to life:The next chapter.
It's the only one of the series I played so far, but there's three other games from this franchise you can have a look at, including the prequel on DS (simply called Drawn to life).
I'm pretty sure Drawn to life's songs would sound AMAZING if they were to be reorchestrated.
This message is far too long by now, so thank you for reading it again, whoever you are.
I congratulate you (and the other ones who collaborated with you) for all the work you've done on this channel.
The "very dramatic" was captured really well.
I'm a simple man. I see Persona, I hit like. I'm (mostly) kidding.
I've spent a lot of time arranging myself, but I never fail to learn from this channel. Thanks for all you do and know it's very appreciated!
Oh my word, THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS! This was incredibly insightful to watch. Tips 3 and 4 are going to completely change how I approach instruments, and I love your breakdown of writing/editing roles in tip 5. So accurate. *And you really nailed this arrangement!!* I LOVE the hikari vibes and also that taste of Studio Ghibli with those "stank" brass chords - Excellence 👌🏼 Stellar arrangement, stellar players (definitely checking them out!), and stellar summary. Well done and thank you to all involved! 🎶💙
Extremely helpful! I've always wanted to try arranging orchestrated pieces but struggled to understand how each instrument can function cohesively without feeling too cluttered. This video gave so much clarity and answered many questions I had trouble understanding and applying for a while. Thank you so much! I love your channel!
Probably my favorite video of yours thus far. Great advice for orchestral writing obviously, but also some amazing advice for composing as a whole.
I'll admit, this one hit me pretty hard at the right time. I'm in the middle of trying to create an album with a gamey sound to it, and I've been constantly finding myself in composing ruts where I have trouble sketching out ideas in a concise or timely manner. Tip #5 especially felt close to home! Hoping I can take some of this to heart to be a bit more productive.
Arrangement sounds beautiful, also. Keep up the good work~
Shoji Meguro is the GOAT of Video Game Composing. That man can write anything, and make it sound fantastic.
as a brass player, clusters that are close but not *too* close have always been a really pretty and unique sound that i like, so im glad you agree lol!
i also am always in editor brain, but the way you put it really helped me realize that.
So, I don't normally comment before finishing the video, but I gotta say, I love that you took inspiration from the Kingdom Hearts orchestration, that song is one of the reasons the DDD opening is one of my favorites to this day.
I've experienced a similar intimidation towards orchestration, thinking of it as sort of "nested" parts makes a lot of sense.
very fun video and will probably watch again to pay closer attention to the sheet music.
thank you!!
This video is one of the most helpful and informative resources for an aspiring composer. Thanks a ton, 8-bit. You never cease to amaze me
7:24 is my favorite part i really love the cello in the first 2 measures
This is simply one of your best videos. Well done.
This was probably the best video Ive seen on your channel yet. This really inspires me. Especially tip #5. I can't believe this was your first orchestral arrangement. You must be hypercritical of yourself to dare think that this would have been a challenge for you. Like I can't imagine that being my first attempt at anything and sounding so pro.