5 Tips for Writing for Orchestra
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- The world of classical arranging has always felt very foreign and intimidating to me but after a lot of study, as well as a lot of trial and error, I managed to put together my first real orchestral arrangement. It ended up being much longer, more frustrating, and more rewarding than I had anticipated, and I wanted to share some things that I used to approach the project that I found helpful. Enjoy!
featuring:
Orchestral Fantasy on strings: / orchestralfantasy
JohnStacy on brass: / thejohnstacy
Bassoonify on bassoon: / bassoonify
Medllix on flute and oboe: / medllix
Soundole on clarinet: / soundole
Standalone upload of arrangement: • Persona 4: Your Affect...
Bandcamp: 8bitmt.bandcamp.com/track/you...
0:00 Intro
3:23 My Arrangement
6:03 Tip 1: Create a Minimum Viable Product
8:48 Tip 2: Use a Reference Track
12:01 Tip 3: Think of a section as one chordal instrument
17:41 Tip 4: Think of a section as a collection of individuals
20:36 Tip 5: Separate your 'Writer Brain' and your 'Editor Brain'
PATREON: / 8bitmusictheory
DISCORD: / discord
NOTEBOOK: www.themusiciansnotebook.com/...
TWITTER: / 8bitmusictheory
#Orchestra #videogamemusic #musictheory - เกม
Today I learned the genre of my music is “minimal viable product”
mine is "failed attempt at minimal viable product" hahaha
Same brother, same
I FEEL IT
Mine is 'non-viable overblown mess'
sameeeee
Going to show this to my 11 year old. He’s been playing oboe for a year and dreams of being a composer. I personally am not musically inclined, but I enjoy your videos- theory has always interested me.
This is really wholesome and I admire your parenting
@@pAWNproductionsDE thanks! Doing my best :)
Good luck to your 11 year old!
I’m an oboist and composer too! I wish him the very best of luck in his endeavors!
As a musician studying music it always makes me smile to see parents support their kids this way.
12:18 Don't forget that instruments from different families can work REALLY well together. Oboe and Trumpet, for example, can blend super well together for fantastic effect. Being aware of the timbral qualities of instruments can help with figuring this out.
Clarinets and violins too. It's common in a few orchestral pieces that the violins and the clarinets double each other for melodies.
French horn goes with everything 🤣
Sometimes composers mix two bassoons and two horns but it sounds like four horns.
I love mixing trumpet with oboe/clarinet they sound really good
@@ralfiralf7811 Especially with Violas and Cellos
"write a bunch of complete segments and then put them together later" Notably how One-Winged Angel was constructed. Wait, is this the channel I learned that on??
I kinda feel like that's how Dancing Mad was made too. Each of the four movements are completely different from eachother, but they fit together perfectly when you actually listen to it...
8bit said “3rds and sixths are your friends for functional chord voicing” and I thought “no s***.”
...then I realized that I was biased as a woodwind player
Sixths? I rarely see those outside of experimental or contemporary works. Thirds, of course, are common, being part of nearly every chord with a name. I am also a woodwind player.
@@feeeshmeister4311 Firstly, both my comment and the video were talking about sixths in terms of the chord voicing, but it almost sounds like you’re talking about 6ths as a chord extension. The reason I get that impression is that you say thirds are “part of nearly every chord.” Voicing a chord so that there is a sixth between the third and root happens every time a chord is in first inversion. While I would agree that “drop two” voicings are “modern,” I would hesitate to call them “experimental” since it’s just a major chord arranged in a way that fits well with woodwind acoustics. To repeat, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ADD 6 CHORDS.
Secondly, I should specify that I play bassoon rather than one of the upper winds, so I’m used to having a wider range between myself and the rest of a chord. My parts are also distinct from the upper winds, as I’ll be playing with the brass or strings as often as my own section. My rep also has a very small amount of classical “greats” with the rest being more modern, so I’m used to seeing thirds and sixths as interchangeable (again, the actual interval, not the chord tone).
This WoT wasn’t supposed to come across as pretentious, although I can see why it might seem that way. I just wanted you to have a better understanding of how I “think” musically to appreciate my comment.
Daniel Bazin I hadn’t gotten to that point in the video, so yes I was talking about extensions. Thanks for clarifying.
your arrangement definitely sounds like a mario galaxy song!
Yo imagine an after-credits scene where Peach and Mario goes to visit Rosalina after everything. His arrangement precisely gives that scene to me
I think has a lot to do with the instruments he choosed
I my you're right
Man! I was gonna say that!
I was gonna say Odyssey, but yeah, totally grandiose Mario for sure!
"Tip 1: Be a musical genius" - Papa 8-bit
Thanks for the belly laugh. This was right on point. I am so impressed with Mr. 8bit Music Theory, man.
naw, this is still very much ABC
Honestly, it'd be great if you could cover how Shoji Meguro can write pieces for such diverse genres, because damn. You could shove him industrial neo post-prog djent and he'd probably make it work
This. Shoji can write slow blues to pop to techno to rap and have it be fantastic
I’d love to see him work on a song for the splatoon games because they are amazing when it comes to genre blending, seafoam shanty by the bottom feeders is my favorite it is a fast rock song with a fiddle.
literal music demon
Yes please!
Yoko Kanno is just as versatile. Maybe it comes from practice?
The violinist in me looking at those "Str." lines has an instinctive reaction like "Wtf is this, piano score for someone with three hands?". I know you've merged the parts for the different string instruments down to a single score for display there, but as a violinist used to reading solo scores, the merged score for the string section there is just kinda hilarious.
Not to mention “Wind” and “Brass”. I get it though. I would rather look at that to analyze than a 50-part score.
Same for me. Also funny as a violist to see the viola part in bass clef.
it's also fun for me to see the french horn sometimes in bass clef when it's more typical to see it in treble lol
"beeg violin" 😂
I really love how this turned out. Hearing it all come together is so satisfying!
Thanks for having me! :)
"And the guitar player just strums some chords."
Woah, you just triggered every guitarist in the world.
Eh, only really the pretentious shredders who can play a thousand notes a second yet have no idea how to actually play something that sounds good to listen to.
The ones that got offended deserve it
@@Aurora-oe2qp It's as if music, and art in general, is subjective...
/s
@@ErebosGR So it isn't subjective then?
The most important thing that the guitar does in most rock ensembles will be playing the chords. Sure, it can play lead lines and solos too, and they can greatly improve a song, but the chords are still more important.
@@Aurora-oe2qp Of course it's subjective. Your sarcasm meter is broken.
You derided "pretentious shredders", like some people used to mock hardbop jazz musicians for playing too fast. Just because it doesn't sound good to you, that doesn't make it pretentious.
Arguably, the most important genre-defining element in rock music is the guitar riffs. Without them, rock music wouldn't be what it is.
Also, the guitar (electric or classical) is one of the most multi-role instruments to write music for. A classical guitar composition can have a bassline, accompaniment, percussive elements and melody played at the same time by one person. What other classical instrument can do that?
8-bit Music Theory,
Not going to lie, your arrangement really made me feel nostalgic that I ended up tearing up. P4G has a very special place in my life and your arrangement really just brought me back to the past. Props to you and the instrumentalists.
I really needed this atm, uploaded just in time!
I see Persona 4 on thumbnail, I click. Simple
Mood
This reads like a 4chan greentext
-be me
-see Persona 4
-click
-life good. No Regret
Honestly, same
Same
I think the only thing stopping me from creating something like this is the sheer frustration of trying to get it perfect and fear of failure.
I sometimes orchestrate music from video games just for something to do when I'm bored as it's good ear training and gives me a reason to learn more about orchestral writing. Believe me though, the number of failed experiments I have saved in the scores folder on my laptop has to be more than 30 - but that's part of the fun of it and it's also how you improve. If you have the time, don't be afraid to at least give it a shot cause either way you win - you might end up with something you're happy with, and even if you don't, you'll have still learned a bit about orchestral writing. There is one very important tip that he didn't mention in this video however and that's to learn as much as possible about the instruments you include in your orchestra - their ranges, what's easy to play and what isn't, how to write idiomatically for them, which instruments blend well together and which don't, and how their timbres change depending on what part of their range they're playing in (especially for the woodwinds)
Why are you speaking my mind? I've given up so many times just because I can't hear myself being so bad 😅
I wouldn't even know where to begin learning how to do this... x_x
This is actually really well-timed for me, since I'm experimenting writing orchestral and instrumental scores - plus I've been playing Persona 4 Dancing lately, so the cover is very timely too.
Same for me💛
Truly amazing how you were able to get such a cohesive sound from everyone overdubbing from home!! That’s so incredibly difficult. A while video on how to do THAT would be much appreciated.
Just an idea: It would be nice if everyone (the players) makes a "behind the scene" video, so every channel get a piece of the views too. It was a collab, so I really want to see all the different perspective and work too. Upload them at the same time and link to the videos.
Yeah that sounds cool though dunno if the others he collab with would do it.
I feel like every wind player's would start with "Ugh, B Major? Really?"
Dude, when I watched the standalone video before this, I legitimately thought to myself, "this feels like Kingdom Hearts music."
Then, I come here, and you say Hikari inspired you. You nailed it.
As an orchestral piece that stands on its own, and as a learning/teaching tool, I think this cover of "Your Affection" is extremely effective. However, from a more art-direction perspective, I don't think that the style of writing used for the orchestral version of "Simple and Clean" works as well for "Your Affection" given the character of the Persona series. If someone was going to write an orchestrated Persona track, I would expect it to be faster and more dynamic, rather than plodding and stately as your cover is. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, I just have a hard time with it knowing the context of the song it's based on.
That actually prompts an interesting discussion: is a cover or rearrangement obligated to be faithful to the work's original context? It certainly can be faithful to it, and you can argue that this makes the cover better or more meaningful. But when I think of, for instance, what jazz has with the great american songbook, it doesn't seem like this is a requirement at all. It feels to me like anyone can make whatever they want, out of whatever they want, and shouldn't be critiqued for veering far off of whatever inspired their work if they weren't specifically trying to stay in that style.
@@stapes5999 I only take issue with the idea that someone "shouldn't be critiqued", as I personally feel that well-meaning and well-thought-out critique is valuable regardless of context. Otherwise, I 100% agree that covers and rearrangements are in no way obligated to be faithful to the original work's context. As a matter of fact, I can think of several covers of songs that are explicitly and deliberately divorced from the original context that I really enjoy. It's very much down to personal opinion, and personally the chosen style of this rearrangement rubs me the wrong way. I don't mean to suggest that it is in any way less valuable or less worthwhile for it, nor that other people can't or shouldn't enjoy it, I merely sought to express my feelings in a way that could prove valuable to those who cared to read it.
But allow me to play devil's advocate for a second. The more divorced a song becomes from its original context, the less one can argue that a given song is related. Artists will always have artistic intent, and other artists are free to interpret said artistic intent, but at what point does reinterpretation become original creation? And more to the original point, as covers of songs can often be used to bring in new fans of a series, for the sake of - shall we say, fan outreach - is it not important to keep some of the original context so a newly minted fan has a better idea of what to expect going into the series, at least musically? If the cover exists for its own sake or to satisfy the enjoyment of its creator, perhaps not, but if the creator of the series hopes to use their artistic skills to bring in an audience who would otherwise have passed up the series, I believe a balance needs to be struck between distinctness and relatedness. Admittedly this a tenuous point, but my artist friends who really like Kingdom Hearts seem like they fit the description of fandom evangelism I've attempted to describe.
This is what was tickling my brain. I also really like this arrangement but it sounds way more Final Fantasy than Persona.
Stop it you two, no constructive disagreements on TH-cam, you're breaking the meta.
Edit: I hope this becomes the new meta.
i can feel the fabric of the universe crumble as you guys - in the youtube comment section - disagree without hate speech
Love how your brass section is geared towards low brass. In my own writing, I've been going back and forth between how I want to group up the instruments I play, which are primarily low brass, into chords, but has been simplifying a lot more than I expected. Still playing around with various combinations to see what I like in the meantime, but gradually working towards the sound I want.
Tysm, i have been intrigued by composing music for so long and your videos have reallt been helpful for someone who has been watching them before knowing pretty much anything abt music theory, to someone who knows a little about kusic theory, so thanks
I had the same transformation. It's really fun to make music and I often come back to this channel for the theory and examples
The way you arrange it sounds very japanese game music-esque. it's really cool you really captured the essence of orchestral japanese game music! The rhythms, the harmonies, etc
Thank you so much.
I have been feeling perpetual inspired to make music for the last 5 days.
I've consumed at least 60 hours of educational content at this point and have slowly pieced together about 30 seconds of my first song ever.
I heard a few things from this vidoe that might help me greatly and I can't wait to try them out tomorrow after a good night's sleep. :3
I hope anyone reading this has an amazing day.
Thanks for making this. As a Persona 4 fan, I love seeing its music getting attention, and I really enjoy seeing your thoughts through the composition and arrangement processes (one of the reasons I've also subbed to Alex Moukala and Jeremiah George). I hope to see more videos like this going forward!
Listening to this video really makes me think about how much work you put into these projects. From having the idea to writing the music to figuring out lessons and writing a scripting to all of the editing... It's damn impressive man. Thanks for doing it.
Petition for a David Bruce-style follow-up video with your collaborators!
Probably the best orchestral writing resource I have found to date.
I've wanted you to talk about orchestration for years, and I absolutely love it! It's in my opinion one of the absolute most important factors in how we perceive music, and one discussed not nearly as much as is should be.
This is absolutely amazing, both the arrangement and all the insight you're sharing with us from writing it!
This is so helpful. Thank you so much!!!
I'll be watching this sometime within the upcoming week. Thanks for covering this!
I really appreciate your approach to picking up these skills! You're making some really useful pedagogical videos. Thanks for getting me involved with this, it was a pleasure!
This video is everything I’ve needed in my life! You did a great job and I look forward to seeing what you’re able to achieve in the future
fantastic arrangement! absolutely loved it!
You blew my mind with your arrangement of Your Affection. Just wow.
Your arrangement sounds INCREDIBLE! Bravo!
Dude I love this arrangement. Feels so final and triumphant. Gives me chills.
Awesome work brother. Sounded great. Beautiful phrasing and arrangement.
Was not expecting this to be so in depth and informational! Thank you for sharing this! The piece sounds amazing
This was very informative, thank you! Excellent job on your arrangement!
This is all great advice! You’re a great resource for composers.
This video is one of the most helpful and informative resources for an aspiring composer. Thanks a ton, 8-bit. You never cease to amaze me
Wow, that was amazing. You truly outdid yourself. I love it!
Awesome! I would love to see more on this subject!
I think you did a fantastic job arranging the piece! I definitely enjoyed the tips you gave and some the choices you made throughout your writing process. The switch in rhythm and the use of countering melody lines was something that really stood out to me in this piece. Great work!
This episode takes on so many ideas and I really enjoyed it. Thank you!
This is simply one of your best videos. Well done.
I like how, between this and the woodwind composition video, you're taking us along on your journey as a composer.
This was an amazing video! Not only, did you write an awesome arraignment but you also explained your process in such a clear and comprehensible way. Videos like these are the reason you remain the only person I support on Patreon!
That was amazing man. I really enjoyed that!
I relate so much to your creative process, it's crazy. Thank you for this - I needed it.
Great job. Love this channel for all the transcription and analysis, but it's wonderful to hear more of your own arrangements too. As great as it is, props also for the cohesive production - taking separately recorded parts from so many players and mixing them so convincingly is difficult in of itself (though a great arrangement helps!).
THIS HAS HELPED ME GRASP THIS SO MUCH. THANK YOU!
Awesome video & arrangement! Thanks for sharing!
Absolutely AMAZING job! Great tips as well as great music!!!! Very generous also. Thank you so very much!
I love love love watching you break down your writing process in videos like this! It's super inspiring, and I'd absolutely be on board to see you do more of these and keep sharing the lessons you learn along the way.
Also, the arrangement you ended up with is almost mindbendingly beautiful. I think I even like it more than the original Your Affection.
I seriously love your stuff. Been watching for years and I can honestly say you and this channel has been one of the largest inspriations for me not letting my musical brain fall by the wayside.
Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful arrangement of this song, and your process in getting there. As someone who also comes from a rock/jazz band background and is trying to make his first forays into orchestral writing, I deeply appreciate both. Arranging for orchestra is hella daunting! But this has given me new inspiration to learn how to do it.
TH-cam does not have enough "pro tips" on writing for orchestra. Like what chord voicings sound good in which instruments. And the emotions that a trumpet melody provides vs a violin melody. Thank you!!
Wow, that was some really helpful and insightful stuff. Thanks for sharing your ideas!
I'm amaze by your arrangement it gives goosebumps on how great it is
FINALLY youtube reccommended a very useful video, since i just started trying writing for orchestra.
My compliments on the arrangement. It was quite good. Keep at it.
Your arrangement was so emotional. That was incredible.
This is very helpful for me, someone who wants to learn to fully utilize an orchestra. Thanks for this awesome, informative video!
Your arrangement is so beautiful! I found myself smiling and waving my hand in the air like a conductor while listening to it because I got carried away, and also got a tear in my eye because it moved me. P4 has a special place in my heart, and its music too so this was super cool and inspiring for me. I've made one orchestral piece before, and it's so complex, but super fun!
I really love this channel so much, your little bits of comedy are always so charming and make me laugh everytime. They feel just right for for this channel been a fan for a while, great work as always!
Hikari is one of my favorite songs, and Your Affection is another. The way you took it and made it orchestral is beautiful. Its uplifting but it still has that peppyness that the lyrics give it, but with the strings instead.
Incredibly helpful. Thanks!
I love the brush art stuff throughout the video! Nice change of style, and I think it was still super helpful with learning, especially at the artist brain vs. editor brain part. Great video :)
This is incredibly insightful (per usual), thank you for this!!!
Wow! What an amazing arrangement and video... Brilliant!!!
Extremely helpful! I've always wanted to try arranging orchestrated pieces but struggled to understand how each instrument can function cohesively without feeling too cluttered. This video gave so much clarity and answered many questions I had trouble understanding and applying for a while. Thank you so much! I love your channel!
This inspired me to get back into developing a story idea. Your tip about having a goal to reach in the song applies well to the theme of a story and the tip about writing several parts out of order helped me start writing some scenes in the middle. I have been telling my kids to "write first, edit later" but you really explained that well. Thank you!
This is really helpful. Writing for orchestra has always terrified me but breaking it down like this makes it feel a lot more accessible and doable. Thanks!
This was entertaining! I've never had a desire to create an orchestral score, but as an ensemble player I am always interested in how each of the individual pieces fit into the complete score. Whenever we play, we are encouraged to listen to the other parts and see who we play together with, or who should be the focus and adjust accordingly!
I relate to this immensely. I have often been intimidated by the orchestra and have trouble getting out of perfectionistic editor mode. Very comforting to see others with the same troubles. Good on you for tackling the beast! Very nice arrangement. I've started by arranging a super simple melody I wrote as an anthem for my writing club, without worrying about leaving instruments out or making things too complex
Love how you such easily explain, such fundamental and important things.
Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for this great video. You explained orchestration in a different way than others and it was refreshing to be part of that experience as a viewer ❤
Oh my word, THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS! This was incredibly insightful to watch. Tips 3 and 4 are going to completely change how I approach instruments, and I love your breakdown of writing/editing roles in tip 5. So accurate. *And you really nailed this arrangement!!* I LOVE the hikari vibes and also that taste of Studio Ghibli with those "stank" brass chords - Excellence 👌🏼 Stellar arrangement, stellar players (definitely checking them out!), and stellar summary. Well done and thank you to all involved! 🎶💙
Wow! Excellent information in an a wonderfully concise, simple delivery! Excellent video for those of us who have experience writing for jazz big band and marching bands. This helped immensely as I am now writing orchestral arrangements of standards for a vocalists performing with a local symphony. Thanks so much!!!!
This is a very good video and I am now inspired! I am going to use these tips in my own projects!
Your channel is a gem
Wow thank you so much for this video!! It was MORE than helpful! Especially tip #5. I have a tendency to compose from “beginning to end” and I just end up frustrating myself. The way you explain it helps me with that! Also your arrangement is killer!! 🔥
This is Beautiful ❤️. I didn't know I needed something I never knew it existed.
Good call on using the French Horn for counterpoint to draw attention. It's one of its primary purposes in band and orchestra, erm, orchestration. Euphoniums, too.
this video is a masterclass. Super helpful. Thank u so much
I got chills listening to this. Take an extra level in Composer +++
This was really inspiring. Thank you for putting this together :)
this video impressed me but so do all of your videos. keep it up sir!
Probably my favorite video of yours thus far. Great advice for orchestral writing obviously, but also some amazing advice for composing as a whole.
I'll admit, this one hit me pretty hard at the right time. I'm in the middle of trying to create an album with a gamey sound to it, and I've been constantly finding myself in composing ruts where I have trouble sketching out ideas in a concise or timely manner. Tip #5 especially felt close to home! Hoping I can take some of this to heart to be a bit more productive.
Arrangement sounds beautiful, also. Keep up the good work~
Great stuff! love what your doing! Keep it up man
Would love to see more videos where you do your own arrangements, or even compositions!!
I was pleasantly surprised by how much I learned from this video. I have sooooo much to change for my current composition that I'm working on.
Boy howdy, I'll be coming back to this a ton. I have a severe case of the writer-editor-brain-mixup, and I'm glad I have a word for it now. But those are some seriously good strategies, thanks for sharing! This is getting me hyped.
Your arrangement sounded great!
Great video, as always!
This was so inspiring and enlightening! thank you