Thank you, this was very helpful. I have to install a new arc fault for an addition I am doing in my basement and I nervous about the false trips and extra cost without a lot of gain. This video made me feel a little better.
This is the correct and intentional design behind AFCI. It needs to be sustained over some time. Otherwise it will false trip in many normal scenarios, like when you plug load into a socket.
I find what was said at 2:40 a little disturbing. What I am hearing is "It doesn't look at the magnitude of the current but the frequency...one particular frequency, somewhere around 1MHz" aka a band pass filter. So my question is, how are power line induced radio frequencies filtered out before entering the home or even in the home? It sounds as if a homeowner has to do internal line conditioning and shielding to prevent induced frequencies. I later hear that the current threshold is around 5mA. How do you keep these things from continually tripping off of say the neighbor's out of band CB/Ham equipment inducing a 1MHz > 5mA signal into a home power line? It sounds as if it is not really sensing an arc but the symptoms of an ARC which might be simulated via an induced frequency/current? Power-lines in rural areas could be un-shielded and act like a big antenna, right? If you do old school X10 data over power, will that trip the Arc breakers? Seems like overkill or is this because so many electronic vendors are making 2 wire hot/neutral televisions and electronics now, resulting in a higher number of Arc fault conditions. These manufacturers used to be required to include internal wired ground shunts but because TVs are low voltage now I see a lot of them doing 2 wire plugs instead of a safer 3 wire. If that is what is driving ACFI then it seems like the problem isn't the homeowner but a manufacturing problem due to government deregulation allowing for increasingly unsafe products to be manufactured instead of mandating that they simply make a safe product that conforms to safe grounding techniques. It looks like a solution in search of a problem.
I believe the Frequency would be altered by that point from a neighbor. It's filtered by the components prior to and even at the pole and it's directional in flow. The current would have to be massive. It is going to be more of an issue with older components. 2 wire is fine. Look at how your panel is wired. The neutral and the ground. It's a valid point but you are going in the wrong direction and way overthinking it.
You're confusing two different features. The ACFI is calibrated to detect arcs at 1Mhz. The GFI feature is designed to detect a 5ma difference. They work independently, if you have a circuit breaker that has both.
not all 1Mhz frequencies that is in general ; howeverthere are other conditiona controlling teh tripping function; e.g it should exceed an amplitude threshold to consider it as power Arc fault. X10 i think it is a communication protocol with very low current amplitude it will not be detected by the circuit
Why do they use a copper stranded wire instead of a solid core for the curled neutral? You would think they would want a more solid connector going into the neutral bar?
I have a 2.5 year old home with 2 your dual purpose AFCI/GFCI breakers on 2 separated dedicated 20 amp lines 1 for refrigerator and 1 for washing machine. Both of these lines started tripping about the same time frame. They do not both trip at the same time they are separate circuits. They started doing this a few months after San Antonio Texas suffered a major freeze and loss of electricity for 3 weeks. We went on emergency cycling of rationed power sometimes only having power for 1 hour at a time at different intervals. Could the circuitry inside the breakers get damaged from these accurances?
@RiViTHeaD13 I manage and operate an electrical company in San Antonio and that power outage messed up a lot of people’s electrical system. While those breakers do have surge protectors within, massive surges from power outages and even reoccurring surges within the home can damage these breakers. As mentioned in the comment above mine, Eaton CH is infamous for their AFCI, GFCI, and DF breakers going bad. The best precautionary measures you can take is to have a whole home surge protector installed. Currently, it’s required by the NEC (National Electrical Code) to install these on any new or recently updated electrical services.
The AFCI has to be programmed to recognize IRREGULAR current flow. Looking for a certain frequency or a range of frequencies will not always work properly because a lot of things like switching power supplies in computers generate high frequencies but the current pulse are consistent and hence not indicative of an arc. Loose wires on connectors and switches are a big problem in the home. "Loose wires start fires" .
He's referring to an overload condition, not a short. A breaker will allow more current to flow than its rated value for a certain period of time, and it could be in the range of 100s of seconds. For more information on this TH-cam search: "circuit breaker time current curves explained"
I hear nothing but complaints from licensed electricians about being required to install these and then the customer gets nuisance trips from all types of small appliances from coffee makers to vacuum cleaners
actually 5.00mA is very low value and very sensitive to humidity and wires cover mis insulated ; 10.00 mA could be the solution and used also in other standards If there is any insulation issue with that circuit(humid area ; wire jacket cut.. it will easily trigger the 5mA circuit
Yup. I like the idea... but the price is 10x and they fail a lot more. I've had one of these tripping randomly for a few months, and one which trips every time I turn the breaker back on. $85 to replace in parts alone!
@@jackpine4347 I dont think you understand the definition of humor Poorly developed? Wouldn't that mean I find NOTHING funny? As it wouldn't have been developed for me to do so, correct? Or are you just saying that because I'm more lenient tomwhats humor vs you..and because I'm not like you, I'm wrong? I think that's less about my development and more about your feeling of superiority. I was basically telling you that someone finds funny. I've never insulted anyone else's personal feelings on it. Some can move on. Some cannot. Reality of life. Guarantee whatever you find funny also has a very serious counter to it as well. A dog slipping on ice. Somewhere else, there's a dog wo froze to death because the owner didn't bring them in Peanuts fell on the floor after a botched opening. Somewhere else, someone with a peanut allergy had to go to the hospital because they were beside someone who botched an opening of a pack. You can never laugh at anything because there are serious counters. Some people just learn how to sa to themselves, "well, I've served my country well. Having a bad back at 34 where it takes me about 3min just to get out of bed..I can alight about that" like I do. Comparing myself to an old man...my grandpa as it were. And we both have a laugh. Or having the ringing in my ears from explosions. Kinda smirk when I tell someone else to cover their ears during weapons practice and mock myself ofmhwaring a continuous lifelong highpitched squeal as if an old crt tv has just been turned on. Some people learn to laugh. Coping takes many forms. I prefer the ones that doesn't end up in suicide like a few of my military buddies. Now I can see how you can't understand that if you've never been through much in your life, you're young. You haven't been through divorce, cheating, pain emotionally or physically etc. Hell, my 10yr old can joke about me flipping over a car, when I bring up so,e stupid shit about racing q car on the highway... even though his mother died when he was 6 in a car accident. When you grow up a little more, he'll probably explain it better to you
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Thank you, this was very helpful. I have to install a new arc fault for an addition I am doing in my basement and I nervous about the false trips and extra cost without a lot of gain. This video made me feel a little better.
At 1:36 sure looked like the arc fault breaker was not tripping, so he mashed the electrodes together to trip the breaker.
I agree, it looks like they should have done a take two. "well it worked in rehersal"
I would agree, does not give me a lot of confidence to spend 10x on a breaker that does not work.
@@johnnyrotit844 That may be true, but he was expecting it to trip the first time. He did it three times to get it to trip. Not what he wanted.
This is the correct and intentional design behind AFCI. It needs to be sustained over some time. Otherwise it will false trip in many normal scenarios, like when you plug load into a socket.
@@movax20h Mine trip without ANY load!
I find what was said at 2:40 a little disturbing. What I am hearing is "It doesn't look at the magnitude of the current but the frequency...one particular frequency, somewhere around 1MHz" aka a band pass filter. So my question is, how are power line induced radio frequencies filtered out before entering the home or even in the home? It sounds as if a homeowner has to do internal line conditioning and shielding to prevent induced frequencies. I later hear that the current threshold is around 5mA. How do you keep these things from continually tripping off of say the neighbor's out of band CB/Ham equipment inducing a 1MHz > 5mA signal into a home power line? It sounds as if it is not really sensing an arc but the symptoms of an ARC which might be simulated via an induced frequency/current? Power-lines in rural areas could be un-shielded and act like a big antenna, right? If you do old school X10 data over power, will that trip the Arc breakers? Seems like overkill or is this because so many electronic vendors are making 2 wire hot/neutral televisions and electronics now, resulting in a higher number of Arc fault conditions. These manufacturers used to be required to include internal wired ground shunts but because TVs are low voltage now I see a lot of them doing 2 wire plugs instead of a safer 3 wire. If that is what is driving ACFI then it seems like the problem isn't the homeowner but a manufacturing problem due to government deregulation allowing for increasingly unsafe products to be manufactured instead of mandating that they simply make a safe product that conforms to safe grounding techniques. It looks like a solution in search of a problem.
I believe the Frequency would be altered by that point from a neighbor. It's filtered by the components prior to and even at the pole and it's directional in flow. The current would have to be massive. It is going to be more of an issue with older components. 2 wire is fine. Look at how your panel is wired. The neutral and the ground. It's a valid point but you are going in the wrong direction and way overthinking it.
You're confusing two different features. The ACFI is calibrated to detect arcs at 1Mhz. The GFI feature is designed to detect a 5ma difference. They work independently, if you have a circuit breaker that has both.
not all 1Mhz frequencies that is in general ; howeverthere are other conditiona controlling teh tripping function; e.g it should exceed an amplitude threshold to consider it as power Arc fault. X10 i think it is a communication protocol with very low current amplitude it will not be detected by the circuit
Why do they use a copper stranded wire instead of a solid core for the curled neutral? You would think they would want a more solid connector going into the neutral bar?
Thanks for the video explanation of AFCI vs standard breakers.
I have a 2.5 year old home with 2 your dual purpose AFCI/GFCI breakers on 2 separated dedicated 20 amp lines 1 for refrigerator and 1 for washing machine. Both of these lines started tripping about the same time frame. They do not both trip at the same time they are separate circuits. They started doing this a few months after San Antonio Texas suffered a major freeze and loss of electricity for 3 weeks. We went on emergency cycling of rationed power sometimes only having power for 1 hour at a time at different intervals. Could the circuitry inside the breakers get damaged from these accurances?
Yes! Especially if they are the type ch which has the tan handle. They are very prone to failure.
@RiViTHeaD13
I manage and operate an electrical company in San Antonio and that power outage messed up a lot of people’s electrical system. While those breakers do have surge protectors within, massive surges from power outages and even reoccurring surges within the home can damage these breakers. As mentioned in the comment above mine, Eaton CH is infamous for their AFCI, GFCI, and DF breakers going bad. The best precautionary measures you can take is to have a whole home surge protector installed. Currently, it’s required by the NEC (National Electrical Code) to install these on any new or recently updated electrical services.
The AFCI has to be programmed to recognize IRREGULAR current flow. Looking for a certain frequency or a range of frequencies will not always work properly because a lot of things like switching power supplies in computers generate high frequencies but the current pulse are consistent and hence not indicative of an arc.
Loose wires on connectors and switches are a big problem in the home. "Loose wires start fires"
.
clear as mud.
do they make one that won’t trip using a vacuum or A/C yet?
I gained info. However, experts should avoid acronyms - or at least define them. What’s a MOV or was it MOB?
He said MOV. Metal Oxide Varistor
So when you say out there. Do you mean in the walls of the house?
Somewhere on the international space station-
So are arc breakers bad?
its goin to b interesting to see that stats after these r affordable n mandatory
Beware of leaky gas fired appliances because none of these breakers offer protection. Bad thermocouples?
Why is the guy on the left constantly talking about a couple of 100 seconds ..... doesn't sound very fast, does it? Or does he mean milli seconds?
He's referring to an overload condition, not a short. A breaker will allow more current to flow than its rated value for a certain period of time, and it could be in the range of 100s of seconds. For more information on this TH-cam search: "circuit breaker time current curves explained"
I think arc fault breaker is more sensitive than a normal cb.
good video!
Oh great...a breaker with a computer in it.
I hear nothing but complaints from licensed electricians about being required to install these and then the customer gets nuisance trips from all types of small appliances from coffee makers to vacuum cleaners
actually 5.00mA is very low value and very sensitive to humidity and wires cover mis insulated
; 10.00 mA could be the solution and used also in other standards
If there is any insulation issue with that circuit(humid area ; wire jacket cut.. it will easily trigger the 5mA circuit
With GFCI anyways there's supposed to be Class B GFCI, an older style that is supposed trip at a higher mA.
lol the old guy tries to supercede the young guy by saying "just to be clear about everything...." then proceeds to confuse me :p
When he said a lot of electrical componted.. IM OUT... these cause lots of problems
Yup. I like the idea... but the price is 10x and they fail a lot more. I've had one of these tripping randomly for a few months, and one which trips every time I turn the breaker back on. $85 to replace in parts alone!
Lets just make an arc with no eye protection.... hell i weld with no helmet all the time and my eye are fine *facepalm*
Lmao
Honestly? Not funny.
@@jackpine4347 lmao. Its funny.
A lot more people move on with their lives.
@@agonleed3841 You have a poorly developed sense of humor.
@@jackpine4347 I dont think you understand the definition of humor
Poorly developed?
Wouldn't that mean I find NOTHING funny? As it wouldn't have been developed for me to do so, correct?
Or are you just saying that because I'm more lenient tomwhats humor vs you..and because I'm not like you, I'm wrong?
I think that's less about my development and more about your feeling of superiority.
I was basically telling you that someone finds funny. I've never insulted anyone else's personal feelings on it.
Some can move on. Some cannot. Reality of life.
Guarantee whatever you find funny also has a very serious counter to it as well.
A dog slipping on ice. Somewhere else, there's a dog wo froze to death because the owner didn't bring them in
Peanuts fell on the floor after a botched opening. Somewhere else, someone with a peanut allergy had to go to the hospital because they were beside someone who botched an opening of a pack.
You can never laugh at anything because there are serious counters.
Some people just learn how to sa to themselves, "well, I've served my country well. Having a bad back at 34 where it takes me about 3min just to get out of bed..I can alight about that" like I do. Comparing myself to an old man...my grandpa as it were. And we both have a laugh.
Or having the ringing in my ears from explosions. Kinda smirk when I tell someone else to cover their ears during weapons practice and mock myself ofmhwaring a continuous lifelong highpitched squeal as if an old crt tv has just been turned on.
Some people learn to laugh. Coping takes many forms. I prefer the ones that doesn't end up in suicide like a few of my military buddies.
Now
I can see how you can't understand that if you've never been through much in your life, you're young. You haven't been through divorce, cheating, pain emotionally or physically etc.
Hell, my 10yr old can joke about me flipping over a car, when I bring up so,e stupid shit about racing q car on the highway... even though his mother died when he was 6 in a car accident.
When you grow up a little more, he'll probably explain it better to you