"Sex Pistols" Punk Rocker Guilty of Murder? | Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen Case Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze the case of Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen?
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Anyone who strangles a cat to death is a very sick person. 😿
I totally agree Juliet, utterly sick and pathetic. There is no excuse for this awful act.
"I don't believe in physical violence". True, I never have, but I've yet to run up on someone hurting an animal or child. I gotta feeling I'd have to change my motto.
That’s a myth
Agreed. That's just disturbing.
Who is saying he did this? Sounds
manufactured.
The bar you speak of where Sid "assaulted a random stranger" was called Hurrah's. The band that appeared that night was a punk band called SKAFISH. My sister was in the band. As they were playing, Sid stood close to the stage and began making obscene gestures to my sister who played guitar. Soon his attention turned to an attractive young woman named 'Tara" , a roadie for the Skafish band. Her boyfriend was the Todd Smith you mention. He was also the brother of the singer Patti SMITH. Sid went as far as to start pinching Tara at which point Todd approached him and politely asked that he wait until after the show to flirt wit Tara. Todd was a gentle soul and went out of his way to be non confrontational with Sid. That's when Sid hit him with a bottle. Todd did not retaliate, but another member of the Skafish crew, Jimmy Sohns (from the Shadows of Night) rushed over and threw Sid down the stairs. Todd ended up at the hospital getting stitches. It was more than a random attack. It was a confrontation started by Sid that showed how violent he was when he couldn't have what he wanted.
Sid sounds like someone with nothing to lose at that point.
@@jaydenrock Well, when aint got nothin' (and he had nothing, including talent, drive, discipline, being likeable)
you got nothin' to lose.
@@NickNicometi and he was young and on drugs which changes a persons behavior
I read in an interview with Patti Smith that her brother nearly lost his eye as a result of that assault, poor guy.
...which makes me think he killed his girlfriend!
thanks for covering this case Dr. Grande. I always wondered about those 2. I mostly feel bad for Nancy. she was literally crying out for help her entire life. not that Sid wasn’t, but their worlds colliding was not good for either of them.
I feel bad for her too, but her style was amazing to me maybe Malcolm McLaren also dressed her up lol but even by today standards she looks so edgy
@@leahflower9924 Everyone exept Sid hated the pig
Nancy was pretty in her way and maybe she didn’t fit the beauty standards but yeah, f the beauty standards they’re stupid anyway.
Thanks Dr Grande! I used to be a punk teen and had a very romantic idea about the Sex Pistols and Sid & Nancy. Now I think it's really sad (they were really young), and I don't think this is an open and shut case at all. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about Ian Curtis from Joy Division too (another band I was bonkers for). Great video.
Same here. Just read Ian Curtis’s wife’s book- so interesting. And heartbreaking. Touching From a Distance.
An analysis of Ian Curtis would be really interesting. I grew up listening to the Sex Pistols but I still listen Joy Division a lot. His lyrics are really haunting and it's really sad that he had struggled so much that he decided to took his own life, I feel very sorry specially for his daughter Natalie, who was just a baby when his father died.
@@Galloway278 I haven’t read that book but I believe that movie control about Ian Curtis was based on the book. It would be interesting to hear an analysis of him indeed
@@chilenapromedioRU Agreed. I liked Joy Division but really grew up with New Order because of my age--born in the 70s. So I knew Ian Curtis committed s, hence the creation of New Order but knew nothing about him. Saw the movie Control and read Debbie Curtis's book and wow--- I hear Joy Division completely different now. The lyrics... even Sumner, Hooky, and Morris didn't realize what a dark place he was in.
Same! I hope Dr. G would cover Ian Curtis!
It's kind of shocking when you realize after all that music, partying and mayhem, Sid was only 21 when he died and Nancy only 20.
Thanks, Doc.
It’s really sad. The whole live fast die young mentality taken a little too far.
It's crazy how different Nancy looks with the punk look and peroxide hair compared to her younger self
I never realized they were so young! The whole thing is really pretty sad when you think what might have happened if they'd gotten the proper help they both needed. 😕
Nancy didn’t want to grow old. I get her in a way. Being old sucks.
I will never respect anyone who harms an animal…. Being famous doesn’t mean you’re a good person…
EXACTLY
Very well said
And yet you eat animals, duh.
Oh yeah, forget about dumb humans 🤮
Ever since I had read about that decades ago, I went from having sympathy for Sid to disgust and a massive dislike for him.
He, and Nancy, have been SO overly romanticized during the years that it's pathetic. Sid wasn't a good guy. And the Sex Pistols are so freaking overated...sorry to any fans, but it's true. Sid was purely a prop.
This man has for far too long been glorified as some kind of Punk Rock hero who died tragically at a young age. While his short life was definitely tragic, the reality is he was a talentless junkie whos bandmates have always said the only reason he was in the band was because of his "look".
Our culture just loves to glorify the rebels even when it's clearly not warranted.
Seems like when such a person is dead they’re much higher held than if they were still alive.
I'm not into that scene of music at all so I always assumed Sid and Nancy were like the "front" of the band, the lead singers. I had no idea that she was just a groupie and he was just there to give the band its look and basically did nothing else.
Pretty much everybody knows that Sid was a waste. When you give a rabid dog encouragement in the form of media attention and record sales, he believes it's him that it all revolves around. Then you give him an intense and doting female companion (who is also a human mess of DSM VI confetti) then he's suddenly the "real star of the show."
Terrible thing is what Malcolm McLaren did. To replace the best musician the band had, Glen Matlock, because he didn't look "punk enough" and to give a lonely, desperate for attention kid, with self destructive tendencies, a position in a band, despite being unable to play, just because he had the look and attitude he was looking for, just for profit! He never cared about these kids, much less about Sid. The only friend Sid seems to have had was John Lydon, who distanced himself after Nancy entered the picture.
True 🙌
20 & 21 yrs is mighty young. A couple of troubled, self-destructive souls, lost. Sad story. Heroin's a monster.
Sid's mother got him on it at age 12!
@@joan-lisa-smith Really? Omg, then she's more monstrous than the drug.
Has anybody else ever noticed the very similar resemblance of Nancy and Courtney Love (her younger days)?
Absolutely. They look the same.
Courtney Love wanted the part of Nancy in the film "Sid And Nancy", but it went to Chloe Webb. They gave Courtney a small role in the film, tho'.
Yes
@@elisamastromarino7123 Yep. The producers wanted someone to play Nancy, not actually be Nancy.
Yes, duh. Common knowledge. Kurt looks nothing like Sid, however. Heroin is a monster. May they all RIP♡
I listened to a heart breaking interview with Nancy's mom. She explained Nancy's mental health struggles that she had as a child.
she wrote a really sad book
I listened to this recently. I really appreciate Dr. Grande doing this video. I think his idea that Nancy did it is entirely possible. I just keep wondering if how her family treated her influenced how she turned out. Sometimes families will treat all the other people fine, but pick one family member out and classify them and mistreat them.
They apparently drugged and pathologized their 3 month(!) old baby with highly addictive psychoactive stuff when she was propably just a colic baby...
So Sad!
@@cleanlytidy7733
Nancy was not “mistreated” by her family, in fact it was quite the opposite where her mother tried everything she could to help her daughter, the book is heartbreaking.
They forgot to mention that Sid's mom was also a heroin addict. They had a weird relationship. They would hang out while she shot heroin and he shot speed. People blamed Nancy for Sid getting into heroin. But really? I think he just found a girl that was a lot like his mom, whom he remained close to, and who allegedly bought and administered the final shot of heroin that killed him. They both seem pretty sociopathic. He also became a miserable self-mutilator after the band broke up, I think that had they not met each other, they would have met other people similar to each other. They were both destined for early death, sadly. But it is not really true that Sid, at least, never had glory days. He was a member of a band that went down in history.
According to John Lydon, Sid mother's Anne was indeed a heroin addict and Sid actually experienced with heroin through his mother. Probably it was easy for a young teen to just took some from his mum. But he (Lydon) also said Nancy took advantage of this and gave Sid more heroin to develop a dependency towards her. I think it was on Nancy's mother's book that Nancy had a high IQ.
She also sexually abused him...
@Opinunate ted Spot on. I agree.
In Final 24 it is speculated that his mom gave him his fatal dose because she knew Sid wouldn't survive prison. How weird is that. 🤯
Johnny Rotten always said Syds mother was the real murderer!
Johnny Rotten said it best, "Drugs killed them"
Dr Grande, your patreon is truly impressive! Its like having another top-notch Dr Grande channel, filled with even more strange and uncommon cases, while still being very well researched and presented, just like this one! I wonder what its like to be respected by more than a million people for having actual talent, education, and experience? What a compliment!
@@yran_kinleni5917 get your butt in there, Evan! Lol! I wasnt exaggerating about Dr Grande's patreon!
I totally agreed.
@@LaniLanilei Hi Rita Rita! hope yr having a lovely monday!
This comment, obviously, goes beyond the pale of earnest good deeds and smells a lot like a performative action.
@@BucketHeadianHagg he paid you to put this?
Dr. Grande “he would bring embarrassment to attack hamsters everywhere” that’s hysterical.
yes, that cracked me up!!! I had to pause the video I was laughing so hard 🤣🤣🤣
Hi, Dr. Grande. Can you please cover the case of Klaus Kinski? He would be a fascinating video subject.
Kinski...a piece of work, but I can't take my eyes off him.
A horror film maestro. That would be a great subject for Dr Grande.
I’m always fascinated with him, including his relationship with Werner Herzog, who wrote a book about him called my best fiend. He’s supposedly made up large portions of his autobiography claiming to have done some really awful things, because otherwise nobody would read. He’d often throw throw tantrums and get in physical altercations if he wasn’t getting enough attention. It would seem that he had an extreme case of grandiose narcissism. During the filming of Fitzcarraldo in the jungle, at one point the natives who were part of the crew offered to kill him for Herzog. He was by all accounts a piece of work, it would be very interesting to hear about him.
I love all of his movies! I also love Nastassja Kinski. She alluded to abuse by her father as a child. You could ask her.
Hi, adore KK in film have heard he was a sex addict and a troublesome character to say the least
It's true that Sid Vicious had no musical talent beyond perhaps a distinctive singing voice but that wasn't why the Sex Pistols hired him. He "looked" the consummate part of a punk rocker and was important to their image on stage and in press and he was also an excellent provocateur on stage and off. Early punk thrived on controversy. But, honestly, a lot of the punk and post-punk bands that followed the Sex Pistols were more talented musicians and song writers.
John invited him to join the band, as John wanted an ally in the band , as for other musicians, you really don't know what your talking about.
They were better than most, considering they were learning as they went along, and weren't following any ones ideas, they were the only band from that era, the rest were frauds
Steve Jones says Sid spent a lot of time practicing when he first joined the band but he stopped practicing on the US Tour.
@@michaelboyle5805 If you will recall, it was Sid that Vivienne Westwood originally wanted in the band mainly for his looks, not John Lydon. But Malcolm McLaren grabbed the wrong one. John and Sid were friends and what you said was true, but Sid was in there mainly because he looked the part. And, yeah, some of the other bands that followed the Sex Pistols were just better musically although there's no denying the Pistols' tremendous influence. Comparing the Pistols to groups like the Clash becomes embarrassing for the Pistols.
I always heard Sid was in the band mostly because he looked the part as well. I've gotten most of my information from documentaries, however. Although Jonny spoke in most of them.
I was gonna say he wasn't even a songwriter but maybe he wrote Belsen is a gas
not focusing on one’s future and instead grieving about romanticized past is a slippery slope. I like this conclusion very much.
Thanks for covering Sid & Nancy’s story. I’ve always found it to be interesting and felt particularly bad for the Spungen family, especially after reading Nancy’s mother’s heartbreaking book “And I Don’t Want To Live This Life”. It’s a must-read for anyone coping with a family member suffering from mental illness and substance abuse.
I read that book many years ago, and felt so bad for Nancy's family. She made their lives so difficult.
"And I Don't Want To Live This Life", one of the most fascinating books I've ever read.
I read that book years ago. What a story.
We, as a family, read the book when my sister and brother were in rehabs for drinking and drugs. Both committed suicide 27 years apart. No matter how I tried to help them, I couldn’t. Reading the book helped but their deaths will always be a part of my life that must be accepted.
@@Sorchia56 So sorry for your loss.
Very good video. People tend to glorify things that were not glorious. I have lived in NYC since 1979. My entire adult life.
Thank you for this analysis. I appreciate that you point out the poor police work and fact that they did not do a very thorough investigation. As a punk rocker who has discussed this death many times with friends, and who had a boyfriend claim he couldn't be without me and cut himself across the abdomen to prove it, I very much believe Nancy could have done it to herself. Then, when she didn't get the reaction she wanted, went to the bathroom. It's possible Sid was too high to engage in an argument or fight so Nancy just reacted to get attention. Maybe there was a death pact, but that's a weird way to do it. As for the other theory of a robbery, that could very easily be the case as well. A scene: Sid passed out on the bed, someone brings drugs or comes to gets drugs, Nancy acts like Nancy, they stab her and take the money, Nancy is too high and maybe doesn't know she is stabbed, maybe she thought she got punched, goes to the bathroom, maybe she felt like she needed to use the restroom, it takes 3 hours because Sid is passed out. Anyhow, thanks again for the analysis and providing a space to discuss this sad story in a logical manner. 🤘🤘
I was in the LA punk scene at the time, but actually in London when this went down and it was a huge story there. One thing that you left out was that Sid's mother (who was a teenager when he was born, and apparently had no support system herself) used Heroin and bought it for her son so it was a generational issue. You are correct, Sid had ZERO musical talent, none, the bass is not that hard to learn to play on a rudimentary level, he clearly didn't have the will to learn---he looked cool that was his "talent." I think that Nancy stabbed herself, I never knew her but she seemed like a very unpleasant individual. Heroin in general does not drive people to murder when HIGH (trying to get money to score is another issue.)
They were not high that night as far as I know, they lacked money and couldn't afford heroin so they bought something else (I forgot the drug's name) so it may still be possible that they both were on turkey and Sid snapped...
@@eily_b yes they were Sid was unconscious for just about the whole night acording to people who were there your "guessing" is very sad....just do a little bit of research
I think she stabbed herself too or convinced him it was the right thing to do. 1 stab and she waddled away to die without getting help? Suicide seems like the clear answer.
@@eily_b that’s bs. Sid had money, he had been playing solo shows & was still signed to a record label at the time.
Yes, I always thought, like several people in documentaries I have watched, she more than likely stabbed herself. From what I gather, Sid was positively comatose on drugs at the time. She did self-mutilate and cut. One guy said he thought she probably stabbed herself while out of her mind high and nodded out, just laid there and bled out. Makes sense. Boy, I do know Leee Black Childers absolutely loathed her.
Excellent analysis. Not surprised that they were attracted to each other, plus the drinking and drugs. I was in high school in the mid-80s and remember reading Nancy's mother's book about her a number of times. They were obviously in a lot of pain. Nancy was the catalyst of Sid's deathly addiction, and yes, Sid's mother gave him the lethal dose and they did have suicide pack. Nancy begged him to kill her. Being a mother, I understand not wanting to see your child in so much torture and pain. Rest in Peace 💔🤍🤍🤍
Wasn't Sid's mom a wreck herself? I can't remember if it was her who got caught importing hash into England
according to John Lydon (who I definitely believe) it was Sid’s mother who got him into hard drugs. Anne was a very unsavoury character all round and Sid adored her, she was the catalyst of his addiction, not Nancy. In Nancy he found someone else who enabled and shared in his addictions, the both of them like the proverbial moth to the flame.
I remember reading “And I don’t Want to Live This Life” as well. According to Nancy’s Mom, there were problems with Nancy even as an infant. I feel for people who have to watch someone they love slip away and ultimately destroy themselves
I thought I remember reading that his mom gave him the drugs he OD’d and died on.
Yeh don’t try and get him help lady. She was probably loving the attention and partying that came with being his mom. I’ll never understand parents that drink or do drugs with their children.
Sid was brutally raped when he went to jail and his mom didn’t want him to suffer that again, or something of that nature... So did give him the overdose.
As a former punk/goth teenager (back in the 80s), I so appreciate this analysis, Dr Grande.
It's always seemed to me that there's more to the story. But, heroin will ruin everything. Especially things that are nearing ruin anyway. The whole scenario is just a mess.
Yeah, I agree, i was on heroin from age 16 ( 1993) to age 18 ( 1995) then ihaad a near death experience , and that kinda scared me ( relatively) straight. I seen sooo many of my friends just drop dead , right infront of me, and noone would/could even move. We were professional zombies. were They didn't have those narcan pens that ppl carry around nowadays, and the romanticised escape of heroin was too tempting to ignore. It was kinda funny tho, when i was on heroin, my mother always thought i was just drunk !!! i was a punk/skinhead grrl, growing up in the late 80s-early 90s, in Sydney, Australia
@@helenwoods1467 I'm grateful you're still here, Helen. 🤗
Well said ! Me too !
Lemmy said heroin will turn you into a dog and then kill you as a recovering opiate addict who never turned to heroin but watched everyone around me do it I agree with him
Heroin use is a symptom of deeper psychological issues IMO
Hey Doc. Can you cover Elliott Smith?
Heroin ruins so many musicians. All kinds of musicians. Not just Punks. And it does sound like the Sid and Nancy story was doomed from the get go.
Very thoughtful analysis Dr. Grande. I appreciate your intelligence and the compassion with which you review situations.
I hope you have a great Sunday, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.❤️
Hello, my friend, long time, no text. I hope you're having a wonderful time 😘❤💙🌷🌸🌹🍀
@@cottontails9003 Hi Julianne!🤗
I am doing good, thank you. I hope all is well with you and your family.💕😘
@@rejaneoliveira5019 Thank you Rejane , the boys are back at University, had an ultrasound and despite all the trauma, it's growing and looks healthy. ❤💙🎋🎋🎋🎋🎋
@@cottontails9003 That’s so good to hear!😊 It’s only few months left, I hope everything goes well with the pregnancy and delivery.❤️
Sid wasn’t too sedated to strangle a cat with a belt for his friends’ entertainment. They are all repulsive. You’re speaking about a pair of people who got together and brought out the worst in each other brings to mind Dick Hickock and Perry Smith. Had the two not found each other, perhaps the Clutter Family murders would never have happened.
Thank you Dr. Grande for your analysis on Sid & Nancy's case.
It's a very emblematic case to everyone who has been involved in the punk rock movement all around the world at any time. I was born when this already happened but in my teens we didn't have internet so it wasn't easy to get information, besides the mainstream opinion.
I've watched documentaries over time, I recall something from Discovery Channel, well it was like 12 years ago, it contained several interviews and the fact that Redglare was never questioned by the police is really upsetting. He told the press that he had seen another drug dealer who Nancy also used, and witnesses claim that they saw a man apparently coming from their room too, so it's so much that the police didn't bother, it's just like you said Dr. Grande, if it wasn't because they were well known to the press, the police couldn't care less about the death of a junkie or two. It's so sad for both of them, they were so young with so much to deal with, heavily addicted to heroin and with mental health issues from early childhood. John Lydon has stated that Sid was not very bright but he was a naive boy, that unfortunately got involved with heroin at an early age because his mother Anne was a heroin addict herself.
I personally believe Sid didn't do it and it's so unfair that we will never get to know what really happened. It doesn't matter how despicable Nancy's personality may have been, her family deserves the truth and justice.
I had to pause the video because I got the giggles from the hamster bit. Thanks Dr Grande for an interesting end to a rough weekend. You rock 😉
If possible you should look into elliott smith's death.
Yes please
Didn't he stab himself in the balls?
@@eadweard. nobody does that, right? And a love interest with whom he was arguing was present when the incident occurred. A lover scorned or whatever the saying is...
Can’t thank you enough for covering Sid and Nancy!!!!
I love watching all your videos. Thank you!
Not all people who experienced coming into this world during a difficult labor with complications become demanding children who throw temper tantrums often, buy illegal drugs, become a sex worker, steal things etc. Not all people brought up by authoritarian parents become trouble makers after becoming a teenager. Not all people who have been bitten by a hamster become capable of murder however becoming a heroin addict in utero before being born to a woman who is a sociopath for sure would be a more common factor.
I read a lot about Nancy and I think the media was extremely unfair to her as opposed to Sid who was a mess and has always been seen as a cute, shy poor lovesick boy. I don’t buy it. Nancy was not perfect, but she did not deserve the atrocious things said about her by the media.
Women always get vilified worse than men.
💯
Yes.
I never met Sid, but I did meet some friends of his (Steven Bator and the Dead Boys). I think Sid had a good chance of beating the case in court, especially with that lawyer. He wouldn't be able to assist in his own defense. Had that happened, he would still be dead 'soonish'. I wonder about some 'rock stars' who exhibit extreme behavior. If it wasn't for the alcohol and drugs, they would probably be the quietest person in the room.
I suggested this case to you! I'm so happy you did the analysis! Having read Spungen's mother's biography of her as well as watched numerous documentaries and interviews on the subjects, I have always questioned if Spungen's exclusive diagnosis of schizophrenia was accurate, or if there were personality factors at play as well. The media treated her, unfortunately, just as she had treated herself: with reckless abandon.
A lot of people don't realize that Spungen had been a genius, with an IQ measuring at 172, who demonstrated talents in writing and photography. She loved animals, especially cats. She had come from a healthy, functional, middle-class suburban family, with siblings who grew up to work in finance and the culinary arts.
I appreciate your honest portrayal of Spungen, but also regret that more people don't know about her tender and brilliant sides. And, of course, your analysis was fantastic. I was so happy to see that you'd taken the suggestion. Thanks so much!
The IQ bit sounds like twaddle. Where is that from?
@@eadweard. she self-reported her IQ as 172 not long before she died, and her mother's biography of her reported that her IQ was in the superior range by the time she was in early elementary school. She was skipped two grades and began college young, as evidenced by Dr. Grande noting that she was expelled by age 17. Even if she exaggerated it herself, she unquestionably had a superior IQ.
@@eadweard. she was gifted, her mother said her I.Q was in the mid 130s and that's evident by the fact that she skipped grades at school, graduated high school by 16 and attended Colorado University/college doing a journalism and marketing degree before being expelled for poor behaviour so definitely a bright girl. Poor mental health and drug use will turn the smartest people into a wreck.
I've always wondered about this. His mom helped him commit suicide later, so... possibly?
Really great analysis Dr Grande. Such a sad case of two lost souls.
I don't think he did it. If piles of cash were missing, then I think a dealer turned up and saw it all, and decided to take it. Sid was unconscious and Nancy tried to stop him, and got stabbed.. Sid probably did think, or assumed, that he must have done it when he woke up and found her
Wow! I can't believe you covered this! I always assumed she stabbed herself ....
I thought so too. I also wondered if she manipulated Sid into killing her.
It is a terrible tragedy but it seems that occasionally some incredibly talented people have no regard for their own health or safety, I think of Amy Winehouse and the brilliant music she wrote which was based on her own dark, lived experience and because of the raw truth there is a close connection with many people, her whole persona was exposed on stage, brilliantly and tragically , a flame that burnt very bright and short, Sid Vicious also had some raw appeal , again because he didn't pretend or try to fit in and many friends said he was a marshmallow that always took on people he couldn't possibly beat and took a hiding again and again, probably a cry for help or masochism, his talent didn't lie in the music, it was his total disregard for social mores and the crowds at the Pistols concerts would mass around his side of the stage , hyped up and excited by his movement and energy and abandon, he said he wanted to be under the ground with Nancy.
The Sex Pistols are one of the greatest rock and roll bands of all time. When I was growing up in a small town in Canada, they were a revelation. Despite their rebellious and rough outward appearance, their music is also sensitive and expresses a universal angst with politics and society. Sid Vicious had nothing to do with that. John Lydon, Steve Jones and Paul Cook and Glen Matlock (who Sid replaced), are the Sex Pistols. Sid was just their Yoko Ono.
Wrong..Nancy was their Yoko Ono..
Did and Nancy, one of my favorite love stories of all time (the ending)! Gary Oldman did a brilliant portrayal of Sid and I’ve followed his career ever since. Thank you Dr. Grande for the Sex Pistols fix. Now,
🎵GOD SAVE the QUEEN....🎵
"Now moving to my analysis. Sid Vicious did not have any musical talent."
Case closed 😎
A friend of mine shared a squat with Sid and Nancy back in the day. He has a completely different view of her. He felt sorry for her. So she wasn't hated by everyone. Malcolm and Vivienne were creating a scene, so don't think actual musical talent was top of the agenda. Don't forget the early UK scene was more about a big F U to the music industry of the time and an anyone can get up and do this attitude. I totally bought into it as a kid. Loved the rebellion and total rawness of it all. I'd found 'home' ha
Great topic! (And btw awful weather in G.) Thank you! Ah, and viciously innocent shirt. 💗🙂
She seems crazy enough to stab herself... who knows. Universally hated. It's so common to hate musicians wives/girlfriends. Like Courtney Love. Great lady, but she had to move to Europe to get away from all the negativity of the haters accusing her of murdering Kurt. I think that's another case that we could do an analysis of?
I miss punk rockers and the culture of the 70-90s. We weren't so divided back then. And music was actually good. Then American Idol came along and really changed culture to be mean and actually vicious... and pop and rap music dominate the charts. Leaving counter culture music such as Dead Kennedy's pretty unknown to new generations. I'm not saying Cardi B is a problem, but... I work with teens and they really think they can just be rich like her without ever working or doing anything.
The complex personalities of 'The Ramones' band members Joey, Dee Dee and Johnny are worthy of analysis. Was Joey's OCD, unusual body type and poor heath a specific genetic issue? Was Dee Dee`s difficult personality a result of his drug addiction or did he have deeper mental heath issues? Evaluating the domineering and harsh personality of Johnny would be interesting as well. Is there a relationship between mental heath issues and creativity?
I would be very interested in the analysis of funny man Johnathan Winters. A master of improvisation and characters who often spoke of his bipolar issues and unhappy childhood.
Richard Hell said "Dee Dee was just trouble." I think part of that is his army brat childhood. Johnny kept things going. Maybe Joey's OCD forced some melody on the others. Bipolar Comedians is an hour long special.
I’ve always thought that perhaps Joey had undiagnosed Ashberger Syndrome. That’s just my opinion.
Mike: Johny was a conservative Republican, which is weird considering that the Ramones was the band for whom the phrase "punk rock" was coined.
I too would be interested in an analysis of The Ramones! My boyfriend got to meet Joey when he was still alive and said he was a really cool chill guy. He wasn't even drinking like you think a rockstar would, he was just drinking water and my boyfriend had a beer while they talked. He seen The Ramones 3 times. He also seen Dee Dee when he was doing rap music and said he got booed off the stage lmfao Poor Dee Dee! R.I.P. The Ramones!
Mike Wysko - Yes! The Ramones’ would be a fascinating discussion here! They are one of my all-time favorite bands, and I was lucky to see them live in the mid-80’s in a relatively small venue, right up front where I could probably have touched joey’s shoe a couple of times. It was by far one of my favorite live shows! Years later, I read a biography of the band (can’t remember author) and a book by joeys brother who was briefly a roadie for them. I had always pretty much idolized them as iconic members of the early punk scene (which was a bit before my time). So it was really interesting to learn more about their ‘real life’ personalities and interactions as a band. I was somewhat surprised to hear about Joey’s health issues, and how he was kind of awkward and sometimes shy growing up. And how his initial stage fright led to the frantic pace of one song going right into the next, with barely a pause. He loved listening to all kinds of music, old and new, and it was wonderful how they were able to incorporate those influences into a completely new, energizing sound, not to mention their unique covers of songs from the 50’s and 60’s.
To this day, their music can always put me in a better mood. I was also saddened to learn that even though they were so big in the early punk scene, they really didn’t achieve huge financial success. They seemed to get so close at times, yet would suffer setbacks that prevented them from getting financial reward. Bad mgmt decisions, arguments amongst themselves, changes in line-up, etc all seemed to thwart them. I guess that’s why they were so prolific in touring, just trying to achieve some sort of financial gains from it, and promoting records.
It really hit me hard when Joey died, I was really sad for days. And even though he was notoriously a jerk,, I was sad when Johnny died, since he was the last member to go. One of these days I’d like to read his book, bc I haven’t heard too much from his point of view, just what I’ve seen from his interviews and heard from others about him.
Also, in interviews, Joey’s mom seemed like an absolute doll.
Johnathon winters would be very interesting too, as I don’t know much about him, but love his unique approach to comedy.
Nancy was to 70s Punk Rock what isis was to al quida. (I may have misspelled the last one. I hope so and don't care.)
Good Morning Dr. Grande, Recommend an excellent movie from 1986, “Sid and Nancy,” that explores the chaos and reckless abandon of two struck with the tragedy of addiction…stars Gary Oldman and Chloe Webb. Intriguing to learn Sid Vicious was named after an attack hamster!
Gary Oldman was gorgeous in that one, definitely worth a watch!
You can't really be "strunk" with addition. It's more that you just decide to take lots of drugs.
Whether this is a mitigating factor in what ultimately happened to both Nancy and then Sid is for the individual to decide. I think it is a massive one. Sid actually had a really tough life. For one his Mother was as much into heroin as he was. He grew up with it and witnessed God knows what. Johnny Rotten even said in an interview that it wasn't a surprise the path he eventually went down that caused his young death. Saying he was screwed from the start. Which many of us can probably resonate with. They both had a lot of problems but being so young when they died gave them no chance to work through and make something of their lives. All round I think the whole case, however abrasive the pair were together, is incredibly sad.
As for whether Sid killed Nancy well, until you've seen it first hand drug psychosis is terrifying and it's a possibility that one or both of them had. A fight breaks out due to that which ends with Nancy's death so would he even properly recall? She could have even done it to dramatise a fight even and went too far, went in the bathroom. I know I've stormed out to another room during an argument. I've seen people deliberately hurt themselves in arguments with a partner also. An ex partner of mine used to have episodes of drug induced psychosis and there were several times he got hold of a knife during these episodes but he also had very little/no recollection afterwards.
Hah, when I was 10 yrs old I was really into the British punk scene and my parents bought me a Sid & Nancy t shirt 🤦♀️ it was interesting growing up and researching it… learned that Sid used to kick about wearing a swastica shirt to be “edgy” and felt like a right idiot.
Highly recommend everyone interested watches Jon Lydon’s interview about Sid’s death and his mum’s heroin addiction. His home life was just terrible.
You're really going to trip when you see some of the symbols Rage Against the Machine wore!
@@eadweard. ahhh I love Ratm. I could watch them burn the American flag all day long. :) I think with Sid he didn’t wear the Nazi swastica to make any particular political statement or comment or art. He just did it to upset people. Can’t see any nuance in that.
When I graduated from 8° grade in my country, we literally end a cicle of education and start a new one, the final one. I didn't want flowers like all my classmates, flowers belongs to the nature, so my mum, knowing I was very much into punk rock, bought me some posters, one was a Sid Vicious one, he was on a motorbike. My mum has always been really cool and supportive, fortunately we don't have heroin here in my country. Eventually I've got very involved in our local punk rock scene, I did cause my mum stress, but I guess most teenagers does. I had my most important relationships with guys from the punk rock scene and the first one was very toxic, the boy was abusive, manipulative, violent, I don't regret my years being an active member of the punk rock scene but I do regret not having the courage and self-esteem to cut that relationship earlier and also to have trusted that some of those people were my friends.
@@jessadelix7415 Well I suppose it's better to wear a swastika for silly reasons that to wear a hammer and sickle for serious ones!
@@eadweard. Well, the hammer and sickle is again a symbol that was used by a fascist government that implemented awful policies. However, I'd say ratm have left-leaning politics that support the original creation of the hammer and sickle. These are positive beliefs, such as we all have a right to be treated fairly and that capitalism is inherently bad. Sid didn't make any statements, didn't give a shit about the original meaning of the swastica. Literally just wore it because of the Nazi association which is idiotic, insensitive, and stupid.
Can you do a video on all the beautiful, rich, accomplished women and that man-child Pete Davidson they fell for? You could title it Grande on Grande…
I read Nancy's mother's book in which she concluded that some children are just born screwed-up. Nancy's behavior was a huge problem right from the get-go. I think her difficult birth might have had something to do with it. Even though Sid said he wasn't sure he'd stabbed Nancy, he apologized to her mother. Such a sad situation.
I'm a lifelong Sex Pistols fan and have a more than passing interest in this case. Dr Grande you've provided your usual well-presented expert analysis which is always a fantastic watch so thank you for this. I don't think unless someone confesses to this beyond all doubt that it will ever be closed, it will remain a rock n' roll ghost ship forever.
@Juliet Thomas I couldn't agree more, I'm a cat lover myself (I have 2) and this single fact always stood head and shoulders above everything I knew about Sid Vicious as the one thing I could never forgive. If people want to kill themselves with drugs then yeah knock yourself out, idiot. But when people hurt animals that's the bottom line for me..
If it were not for the fact that he was in a band I love I'd never have given him time of day, but he was a part (for a short time) of a band that love them or hate them are part of rock n' roll heritage and their single studio album Never Mind the Bollocks here's the Sex Pistols is as a matter of fact, one of the most important albums in popular music history.
According to the book by her mother, Nancy was determined to die young, “in a blaze of glory.” And, that’s exactly what she did.
The 70s punk rock scene, as now, was much more nuanced than you suggest, not everyone involved, or even most, were completely devoid of morals. The punk movement was at least in part a protest against the dehumanising of people by the rampant capitalist system and anxieties caused by unprecedented unemployment and the atmosphere of the cold war. Grande is not the first and will not be the last to be dismissive of youth movements.
Simon Ferocious?
Interesting video, thank you for this. I usually don't laugh, but 'too strong to be a weightlifter' comment had me LOL seriously.
Please do a video on Daniel Holtzclaw, been waiting for you to put one up.
Thankuuuuu so fn much for doing a show on Sid & Nancy! They were my heroes growing up.
I knew a guy that was in the room with them that night. He said the same thing a few people said in that Who killed Nancy doc: It wasn't Rockets Red Glare, who used to like to imply to people that he did it. It was the sketchy, blonde haired drug dealer from upstairs. Everybody that came and went that night said the same thing.
Literally just spit my tea out! Thanks Dr. Grande. Sid Vicious’s tombstone “ during his brief career he would bring embarrassment to attack hamsters everywhere “ 🤣🤣🤣
I remember someone (one of his friends) saying they snorted some of Sid’s ashes in a bathroom on the way to scatter his ashes.
Crazy times.
I heard similar too..
Eww!
Sid was vicious
Dr. Grande, you've (gratefully) missed your calling! You could have been a prosecutor or comedian! So happy we have you here, don't get me wrong!! Love your channel!
i saw your video on high functioning depression but can you do one on cheslie krsyt? thank you dr grande!
There is a heartbreaking interview with Nancy's mother on youtube. It's a worthwhile listen for those interested in development psychology.
thanks you Dr. Grande as I have always believed Nancy may have done the stabbing to herself. I'm bipolar with Psychotic features. It was very bad in my 20's and early 30's, I would have this reoccurring compulsion to drive a butcher knife into my stomach. I'm so glad I received treatment or I am sure I would have done it. Thanks for stating what I believed all along. I was a huge punk fan and regard Nancy and Sid as lost souls that never received help as I did. I sure wish they had
But if it was either Sid or Nancy why would they wipe the knife clean
Attack hamster...ha ha ha! Reminded me of the Monty Python killer rabbit!
Police don't care about "trash". Had she been a Royal they'd have climbed mountains for evidence. Everyone's life is precious, kings & addicts alike.
Unthinking repetition of fashionable nonsense.
@@eadweard. O gosh, you're right. Those with wealth, status or connections never get preferential treatment. I apologize. Now go watch Foxnews ❤
@@tonioshea9870 A nuanced and sophisticated response.
@@eadweard. Aw. Anything for you, darlin.
@@tonioshea9870 In that case perhaps you could withdraw the bulb from the sheath, and gargle until fruition.
I think she stabbed herself. Because she was very moody.
If there's anything we can count on it's that people will often see merely what they wish to... And that this is a terribly common trait in certain investigations. Especially those investigations involving certain classes or color; given the era, context, and overall demeanor of the local constabulary. In a very odd way we have to thank Sid and Nancy. The international attention brought by their actions to the burgeoning punk scene allowed an important polisocial musical movement to accelerate and expand. It is truly punk that two demi-nobodies became icons seemingly out of nowhere and for nothing more than the basest of human propensities.
Prescribed a barbiturate at 3 months old? Wow. I had to go back to make sure I was hearing that correctly. That's a dangerous drug that can cause addiction. Withdrawal can be deadly. That doctor is insane.
John Lydon and others described Nancy Spungen as having a death wish and seemingly wanting to take some out with her. She got her wish.
yeah I always got the impression she just wanted to take people down with her. From what I remember John acknowledged Sid's issues but didn't think he was a bad guy, just kind of lost and impressionable.
“Hamsters, the peacekeepers of the rodent world.“
Cue projectile emission of beer through both nostrils 😁
I wish there were a "love" button... thank you for covering this! Right up my alley🤘🏻
Do you think Nancy had borderline personality disorder?
This was an extraordinarily interesting topic! I’d heard their names but not the true backstory.
Dr Grande not to change the subject because this is very interesting however I would love you to analyze the case of Ross Ulbricth ..if I spelled it correctly, not a murder but given an extraordinarily gruesome sentence compared to what many killers get ..two life sentences For the Dark Web Silk Road
I think one fascinating aspect to the story is that Nancy found someone who actually loved her. Unfortunately she was saddled with extreme mental health problems beyond her control. Even though they had mental health problems that led to destructive behavior. I truly feel they cared very deeply for each other. I once threw broken glass into a plastic trash bag. When I picked it up it sliced my leg. I had to get stitches. It showed me how fragile we actually are. Something bad can happen in an instant. That being said..my intuition says Sid didn't do it. He was too doped up. I lean more towards the robbery theory. I feel like someone saw their chance to steal their money. Maybe Nancy antagonized them as well. I don't understand why she didn't call for help. In the end I guess it's going to stay a mystery. There are quite a few possibilities. Even a botched double suicide. May they both rest in peace. 🕯
I believe they both were drugged out of their minds, so when Sid stabbed Nancy or she did it to herself, she, of course, went to the bathroom mirror to see what the pain in her chest was all about and this red liquid stuff (blood) coming out of her. I think both were blitzed out of their minds, so she was not capable of thinking rationally at the time...i.e. to call 911 or to scream or run for help. Sadly, this was all just a matter of time...if this hadn't happened, they would have OD'd eventually. Heroin is a hell of a drug.
I agree. Addicts fall in love. I don't think he did it.. Sad sad story ♡
@@bettywith2girls Some people believe Nancy was suicidal and asked Sid to kill her. I don't know if that's true but if it was, it would make sense she would ask him to do this while they were high on heroin, aka during a time he couldn't think clearly.
@@dork7546 neither could think clearly, but Sid was incapacitated. There's no way he could've killed her. His stories were just heroin fueled theories.
"Obnoxious, maniiulative" two sad people
The book by her mother, Deborah, is worth reading. Nancy had mental health issues almost from birth. Sid’s mother was super self centered. Oh, and Spungen, I learned from hearing Nancy’s mom interviewed, is pronounced with a hard “g.”
Dr. Grande explains Sid and Nancy. What a tragic story. I remember the punk era. A local Cleveland band in my area called The Dead Boys also became somewhat popular. Punk was some crazy music!
Dead Boys was Stiv Bators band wasn’t it? There’s an interview in black and white with Sid and Nancy on here and Stiv is next to Sid. Good interview too.
The book is " And I Don't Want To Live This Life" by Deborah Spungen.
I love that you're covering this.
Deborah's book brings a Suffering Mother's point of view. Brutally honest.💔💔💔💔💔💔🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I remember those crazy people back in the 70s
I was really hoping you would mention the Reagan conspiracy theory in this video. I don’t believe you always include conspiracy theories in your commentary but when you do, it’s enjoyable. This analysis was awesome. I didn’t know Sid was named after a hamster! That’s amazing XD
It would be interesting to hear your take on the Clutter killings. Floyd Wells is a relative of mine, he was killed while trying to escape from prison. His family disowned him and refuse to mention his name.
Ah! I saw the Sex Pistols with my Dad when they came to Adelaide. Minus Sid of course & Johnny Rotton was about 50.😉 Great breakdown as always Dr Grande.
He probably killed her. He came off as very guilty afterward, and was assisted in suicide by his mom.
I agree.
You didn't mention that Sid Vicious was terrified of needles and needed Nancy to shoot him up. I imagine for him, staying with her was a heroin addict's path of least resistance. His mother was a heroin addict as well and was at the party when Sid overdosed. Everyone blamed Michele Robison for his death, she brought the drugs for the party and wished to be Sid's girlfriend. In 1996 the year of Anne Ritchie(Sid's mother) death, she told someone close she had given the fatal shot to Sid underestimating the strength of the drugs and that was why he died. A death bed confession told to me by someone I believe. And, thanks Dr. Grande for another great video I hope your audience continues to grow.
She died at 20 and lived and had a life time of experiences. It is sad the police didn't feel it necessary to investigate the scene more. I don't think Sid Vicious had the "where withall" to do much on any level of drug induced haze to wipe clean a knife unless he was going to do it again.
A life time of experiences? where did you get that from? as far as being a junkie wore groupie and a complete anoyence to just about everyone she met and her ambition of getting a "rock star" lead her to Sid she did sweet f*ck all?
I came to comments just to recommend the book. I see it has also been mentioned. It saved my sanity dealing with a teenager much like Nancy. Happy to say we got through it and 30 years later all is well.
14:23
"...a band SOMEWHAT popular..."
What?
What pisses me off is that a neighbor heard a young lady moaning in pain. Why the hell didn’t she call the front desk and say, “I think someone is hurt in the room next to me!”
It was the Chelsea Hotel. That's the answer. Plain and simple. Sad but true.
Hospital: “meh-the baby is fine so you can’t sue us!”
Nancy: “screeeeeeeeaaaaaam”.
Clearly something was profoundly wrong with this child. And the poor thing was in terrible pain rather than having temper tantrums. The drugs may have helped her in some way we will never know but being drugs clearly they also hurt her as well. Her death almost seems inevitable. Even mothers with the best intentions have a hard time loving a child with such issues. And she clearly had no way to make friends with her continuing and escalating obnoxious behavior. Sid-I dunno what was wrong with him to begin with but he strangled a cat(?!) Psychopath behavior. The hamster was probably also being abused when it bit him. Good Hamster. You don’t have to be crazy to be punk but you also don’t have to have musical talent. To be a punk musician even it is not required. But some punk music is great. Love it.
I blame the inSIDious Drug Addicted Vicious Rodent, who bit and took up residence in Simon, realizing his hamster form was indeed too small to chase the dragon. 🐉🐹 😆
I second this 👆 it’s a fact
Could you cover Thomas Shelby on Peaky Blinders? That would be a fun one!
Nancy bought the knife, Nancy had wanted to die all her life and had constantly whined for Sid to kill her. Both were stoned out of their minds. The truth is the other way around: Nancy murdered Sid as soon as she introduced heroin into his life.
Nancy's mom wrote a book that I read at 21 called _And I Don't Wanna Live This Life..._ which were words used by Sid Vicious in a poem he wrote for Nancy after she died. Deborah Spungen, Nancy's mom, borrowed them for her book's title, but then blamed Sid for killing her darling of a daughter when the truth was to the contrary.
Both kids are better off, but I do think Sid would have had a shot at growing up and having a normal life If not for Nauseating Nancy. After all, John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) has had a full life and even cares for his ailing wife of 45 years who has Alzheimer's.
Thank you, Dr Grande. 👍🌹
I agree
When we all look back at our younger years, we did things that were reckless, foolish, impulsive and some of us criminal. If we get to grow up, we may become better people, making a life and a positive difference to others.
Sid grew up with a single mum who was a drug addict, Jah Wobble of PIL talks of him shooting speed at 16 while his mum was shooting heroin in their flat. His mother scored heroin for him when he was released on bail. Sid was a virgin until he met Nancy, he must have found that strong brash NYC style very fresh and exotic, they seemed to have an intense very punk rock relationship. I've always thought it was more likely this was a robbery/murder and Sid was passed out through the whole event, both of them being very high. I became a punk in 79 as a 14yr old and thought they were so cool, it's was only as I got older did I realized they were kids and it was a tragedy all round.