SOMEONE MESSED UP BIG TIME
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- Well this was a first, someone messed this up
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It might be sized correctly right now, but has no leeway for dirty coils. I would worry that once it starts aging and the coils start to degrade it can no longer keep up at all.
Exactly. It’s sized so that if everything is in perfect working condition then it’s fine, but as soon as anything degrades a bit then it will never be able to keep up
I always up sized a freezer by 1//3 horsepower.
With a strip curtain !
That way they can sell a new coil in 2 years
If it's replacement for worn out one, it's not even sized right. Insulation degrades over time providing higher heat load than envisioned. High amount of defrosts due to small coil and high energy consumption because condensing unit has to run full throttle all the time. There's no room even for regular defrosts since it can't keep product temps down. Only time it can catch its breath is during night when temperatures drop, but that's no way to run stock, using it as cold storage over day. Even dropping thermostat as low as it goes would probably not be enough and temps would just climb during day.
@@halverde6373A strip curtain is a good idea 👍
"Yeah we sized your new equipment just right so you can save allll that electricity with it! Just don't ever open the door."
"But it's a walk in freezer...? We kind of need to get in there from time to time"
"Ehh, it'll be fine. Anyway, here's your bill for half an arm and a dongle!"
it seems like 99% of places are like that these days. everything is so maxed out that any kind of air movement that is unexpected is too much.
Chris, you say you’re not the best tech in the world. You definitely are one of the better ones because you care about your customers and viewers. Thanks 🙏
Thanks
In school they taught us 225Fis the max discharge temp you want to see on most compressors, 240F+ is wild!
Same here. I'm surprised I had to scroll down so far to find somebody else thinking the same thing.
225 on a Copeland. Bitzer is 250
448a/449a is different I think. Copeland says the discharge is changing with new equipment requirements
@@Bogartttttt same here, on Copeland compressors
Love the 1,2,3, please don't blow up prayer. I say it a lot myself
Lol
Is there a lot of blowing up going on in hvac
Hard starts.. 😅
I was OMG when I saw the new timer still in the box zip tied inside the unit.
They probably saved a few minutes of time by not redoing the defrost connections
That shows what kinda install job this was. Once I seen that I was like nope nope nope. Get me out. Then ty wraps it in there taking up more space for air flow.
At first, I thought 'somebody is getting fired' but after thinking about it, the contractor probably saw that the customer was being cheap and asked them if they wanted to reuse it to save some time/$.. framed it like they were doing the customer a favor
It's bad when an installer is rushing like that, and dosnet even want to switch over the new clock. Makes me think he didn't really know what he was doing. Maybe a "fly by night" guy. I question the whole install. Even purging and complete evacuation. I wouldn't doubt that there are non condensables in there. This could be why the discharge was so high. Those demons sometimes won't pop out until it's really hot outside like that.
Already liking it. Especially since it’s brand new equipment and frozen. This is a good one.
It's a liquid injection port used in a low temp compressor, where the compression ratio is too high, heats the head up too much. In order to protect the oil from losing it's viscosity at very high temps and losing its lubrication property, a small amount of liquid refrigerant is sprayed surrounding the compression chamber. There is also direct liquid injection I think, not sure enough, which sprays directly into compression chamber. This technique is used for rotary compressors also , its much simpler with a capillary tube. Hope this helped a little.
It tough. I've got a 8 story apartment building that just got finished at the end of last fall. A fly by night company came in and installed 100 ish units and we have had several calls all go back to poor install and poor vacuums
Haha, story of my life! I work in maintenance for section 8 in TN. The evaporator drain pans in all the apartments at one of the two properties I float between have their float switch placed in a pvp pipe, separate from the drain pipe! They go nowhere and they put the damn float valve in them! Every time the damn things fill up with water, we get a work order to go empty this stupid pipe to nowhere so the unit can actually turn on. I would love to move them to the drain pan, but we literally do not have the time! The company will not pay anyone else to do it, give us a temp to take some of the other tasks off our hands, or any other solution you could come up with!
It's a shit show from start to finish, all because the installers were incompetent. Don't get me started on how they installed the tubs/showers...
There's sloppy installation...and then there's this trainwreck. Looks like an exhibit of things not to do! Wondering if the customer saved any money at all going with a cheaper quote when you had to come back and clean up all the mistakes.
Agreed that high ambient and high utilization applications need more attention when sizing. A couple years later with a dirty oxidized condenser and they'll really be in trouble.
It's important to vent for mental health, Chris. You're right that the equipment should have been appropriately sized, considering all the details, such as summer and winter loads and the specific requirements, like the cooks going in and out of the box and the oil heating unit, etc. Primarily, they should know these things if they work in your area. It seems like they rushed to make money, as evidenced by the OEM-supplied defrost clock still strapped to the compressor. It's frustrating to deal with, but it made for a dramatic day. 🤔
The manufacturers recommend advancing the defrost clock using the small white dial to avoid damaging the plastic gears.
The fryer just near the freezer door. It does not need tens of years of experience to understand that is sooo stupid placement.
Kicked back and watching HVACR videos while I wait for Lionel O Gauge train track to bake in the oven.👍
Sounds cool
My wife has quite the collection of Lionel O gauge trains (pre-war). I like to work on them :)
I think the customer knew they got bent over by the installer and wanted a competent tech to look at it. Reminds me of a lovely screw up at work when we moved to a brand new building. As it was explained to me apparently there are RTUs that are for warm and cold weather climates.They installed ones for warm climates because it gets to be 85-90 with 70+% humidity most of the summer here. Well the warm/cold climate referred to winter temps. Yeah first truly cold winter day they froze solid. Took them way too long to figure out the problem and fix it. Lost a lot of product because of it.
I suspect (and I'm allowed to speculate haha) that they can't get them to come out and fix anything under warranty. They would likely have to sue them and probably can't afford the lawyer, let alone the time in court.
The curse of professional competence is eternally dealing with the ever increasing workload for fixing other peoples errors because YOUR work becomes the default trusted work.
While it may FEEL like whining, it is INCREDIBLY honest and true to feel put upon in these cases, but the trick is to step back and recognize that it's actually a reward in disguise. Yes, it's extra 'unnecessary' work because you didn't do the initial work . . . but you are now earning WAY more because you are the hero.
I deal with the same every day in IT.
11:35 ...1,2,3 please don't blow up is literally what everyone says when we switch on the power after a wiring.😂😂😂😂
I just had one go wrong a few months ago. Actually blew up from choice wire repair. Had a thermal OL with middle leg smoked. Not the thing that happens without a cause. Checked multiple times no short. Ran fine powered off one more time to put cover on. Metal plate that wire run under had wires in broken conduit masking taped over the cuts. Must have kicked plate and now short was there. I do the opposite and go 123 BOOM . It went BOOM !!! Now I had to re run all new conduit and wire since someone else bandaided it
@@rwood1995 That'll wake you right up! I'm in the please don't blow up group. Had a large transformer blow up 2 feet from my face when I was a helper many moons ago. I wasn't hurt physically somehow, but spiritually and emotionally, I don't trust anything anymore lol.
As a civilian, it was strange to see that one-fan coil in the box. I don't remember seeing (any?) too many of those on this channel and I don't think I saw any back in the day when I had to take things in and out of boxes at work.
started laughing really hard when i saw that box containing the new defrost clock still zip-tied to the compressor. five stars
From what I've been told, R448a seems to struggle with low temperatures. I know a couple of companies in Australia use 448a for medium temp and 452a for low temp applications. Apparently they had oil return issues on some 448a low temp systems too.
I can't tell you how many times I have been outbid on walk-ins because I size the refrigeration for heavy load and higher ambient temps. Owners see online prices that are much cheaper and end up with what you see in this video.
Then they try to get them to do warranty work and get stonewalled... have to sue and don't have the money and/or time to.
this thing is cute. our walk in freezer at the small cost plus grocery store is a bohn 6 fan freezer evap in a box about 6 pallets long by 3 pallets wide (we roll pallets of bags of ice in and out as well as the frozen food we sell.
its extremely oversized (no clue what compressor is on it, but both racks in the pump room are almost all semi hermetic Copelands). but damn it can drop the room from 40F to -20F in less than 30 mins. it has a cutout in the wall with a flap so that it can pull air in to equalize the box pressure, it gets so cold so fast.
somehow it never ices up. idk how it doesn't. wouldn't surprise me if its r502. our locked storage room has a probably 20 of the smaller r502 tanks in it.
I've been watching your videos for years now, not in the industry at all, but I appreciate how thorough you are and detailed in your explanations that even someone inexperienced can learn what's going on.
I always enjoy watching your videos. The way you explain and talk about the process makes me want to work for you. The first video I watched a long time ago I was instantly hooked on learning hvac. You have taught me a lot over the years. Thank you! Great video!
Thanks😊
@@HVACRVIDEOS Had I found your company before I moved to TN. Used to live in Hemet CA up until 2021. Of course, I'm doing maintenance now, instead of hvac/r. I really need to get away from this property management company...
That lack of wiggleroom on the sizing kills me. I get where you're coming from especially with the time constraints.
As soon as i seen that thumbnail.. tiny thing
Damn man. ≈500 BTU leeway? That's as critical as I gets!
That’s if they keep the door shut, every time they open it the hot air comes in and it can never keep up because of it.
@@HVACRVIDEOS good luck with YOUR customers keeping doors closed
Yeah… leaving freezer doors open is the story of my life
Even better is when they size it so that with the door wide open it still holds and barely runs..@@HVACRVIDEOS
@@HVACRVIDEOS I left the freeze door in my kitchen open the other day in your honor. Granted I was just getting all the ice out of the door and insulation because it happens!
I'm in the UK, that system looks about right, for here. Wher you are, it's undersized for it's environment.
At least, they did not install a generic CPU cooler from a PC CPU. But they was close...
Didnt think it was mentioned...was there door curtains installed? I did think you mentioned a door switch right? Also an auto door close would help to insure it closes. Ive put alarms on these doors because it can get ridiculous on customer end. A temp recorder would help to see what temps are overnight when store closed and no one accessing box. Would help to see what capabilities the unit really has. Ive worked everywhere in southern ca. For over 20 years and 15 years in no. Ca. Supermarkets mostly. I know those 120 deg palm springs temps. Retired now for 3 years. Still miss it sometimes 😔 good luck brother!
When you send them the bill for this work, I'd put on "Fix installation errors" and then list every single one of the installation issues you found and fixed. Maybe next time they'll get you to do the installation which will cost them less for service!
I understand your frustration at the situation. But install should be responsible for his work, not the service company. But hey if they going to pay you adjust your charges accordingly. They probably figured they screwed up and now have the greatest fixing it. Hope the customer passes the cost of your work Back to the install company. Just kindly have a letter written up and sent to corp telling them what you found and suggest to do. Mention all the parameters of the restaurant, the sizing chart where it falls off the chart. If they see it on paper and read it, maybe they will realize they have an outstanding service company always looking out for them. Great video Chris. Keep up the greatest work.
The way he talks about the last installer, describes every other hvac guy I’ve ever hired
You’re not an HVACR tech Chris, your a firefighter.
Just a single fan? It probably doesn't even cool as much as a refrigerator 😂
Never ask why, how, etc. It'll only give you a headache...
Nothing Worse than a Hack doing HVAC. I think most would Agree this Restaurant did Not get what they Ordered and/or Paid for. Someone has some Explaining to do.🤪👎
The problem now is that since he was basically coerced into working on this thing, the warranty is void(this will be the position of the manufacturer)
I did not think at anytime you were complaining. You sounded frustrated that it was not correct . When you showed the new timer not installed I thought this has disaster all over it.
As the old saying goes it’s cheaper to do it right the first time. Excellent video.
Also you have to check thai return air of the kitchen. If the return air of the kitchen is not returning the air to makeup the air loss from the kitchen, it will create vacuum out of all the refrigerators including the ice machine in the kitchen
Since the customer asked for you to fix it and not by warranty, this would be the perfect time to get it sized right for the customer install the right equipment and mostly have mandatory maintenance this customer and you will be surprised how that will solve a lot of these issues. And you’ll have a customer for life.
They won’t do maintenance period, it’s very common with chain restaurants. If I choose to stand tall and say I won’t do work without maintaining the equip they will just find someone else…
Thank you very helpful I graduated from North American trade school 3 yrs ago keeping it sharp with hvac thank you sir 🙏🏾🙌🏾
I do IT and the number of things I come across where I'm like "How in the hell do you do something this wrong and call yourself an IT professional?" The director who was here before me was old school, not interested in security, did not give good thought to locking down equipment or data security, left holes wide open in the defensive architecture, etc, etc, etc. Like, I was astounded we hadn't been hacked.
I also get deeply frustrated that all it takes is a bit of curiosity and you can pretty easily get to the point of "good enough," and yet here we are with people who don't know and don't care. Worse still? They get higher titles and better pay than I do/have. They probably do the politics better than me, but it doesn't matter one bit if you get your org compromised.
I always check the pressure temp of the refrigerant very closely. I've seen too many times that someone started charging with the wrong refrigerant and then switched to the correct one. It's a mess to determine sometimes. Came to a walk-in cooler call that someone had accidentally added 414, then decided to charge with 404 after a lb or so. I had to watch my gauges close, then noticed superheat, and subcooling was just not quite right. Even after adjustment. When i finally got the installer to tell me he started with the wrong gas, he then said it shouldn't have mattered. Well, it does..! Installations can be a nightmare to diagnose when done wrong sometimes. Good troubleshooting skills, guy. !
My recommendation is installing a second compressor with an evaporator compressor turn on automatically with it outside temperature control in the winter time to stay up with demand
you loose capacity when the liquid injection is cooling the compressor so that could be part of the problem
I didn't think of that at first but it would make sense. The system is already struggling with capacity and then you add in the DTC valve. On top of that, in my experience the smaller rooms tend to get used more frequently.
When they would rather have you over the people who installed it with warranty come out, you know you are a solid tech. Cheers from Resi HVAC in Canada! You videos show realistic troubleshooting thoughts with no frills. Thanks for all your videos.
So the coils are in the opposite places.The bigger one should be in the freezer, and the a smaller one should be in the fridge
That valve that cools the compressor is basically a de-supetheater. At the cost of abit of system capacity it cools the compressor by releasing some liquid refrigerant into the compressor body to remove some of the heat. I actually think its a decent idea and helps protect the compressor from overheating and high head damage
Great video. Good process to diagnose the problem.
Have you done any videos on calculating super heat and sub cooling on freezers and Coolrooms?
That lack of wiggleroom on the sizing kills me.
Maybe you could ask the app makers to add built in peak hold? There should be more than enough space on the screen in that app.
They rode that load calc to the absolute maximum. Just a little lack of maintenance....and wham...problem...really any little thing thats not tip top and you'll have an issue.....fudge factor.....who needs that....i can blame the government for a part of that. The installing contractor a little bit. Luckily they have a guy like you to get them by.
This video demonstrates a good use for a screen at the entrance to the walk-in, whether it be plastic or air.
To be fair, that's essentially what thermal compound comes in for computers, just with much smaller syringes.
I have watched mostly all of your videos. The powerful info you’ve shared has helped me figure out and look at this trade in a completely different light. I am completely astonished that this is free content and everyone who wants to do better and care about their trade gets a video tutorial of how to be that tech who sees the big picture.
I love you. Thank you so much!
I'm glad I could help
One of the major problem in air conditioning refrigeration in restaurant where the makeup air system do not balance with the air going out. This is the reason why we put inverters motor drivers for the air that going in for the area going out. It is very essential that you have motor drivers. I could not tell you how many time. This is the biggest problem with the person who do the insulation of the kitchen hood in the kitchen. This is when we walk to that door. We know exactly what's going on for the whole entire restaurant operation, winter time and summertime
lol. That thermopaste bring back some bad memories. My previous job I would have to reapply that shit onto the heating elements of the Wendy’s grills. We would go through 2 or 3 small tubs of it. Don’t ever get that shit on ur cloths. 😅
I do build my PC and sometimes I help my friends to build theirs. So, I have dedicated T-shirt and a jar of isopropyl with special cloth if things go wrong. I dunnno, why your previous employer didn’t provide you with work clothes for that task.
As a last ditch effort, I’d swap out the 448 and put in a 404txv and refrigerant.
Yea, I worked on well pumps for 48 years, never stand directly in front of a disconnect when you engage power.
Dude... That's Medieval.
Brand New unit with no inverter and no reverse valve for defrost?
those look like 80's machines :D only that digital controller looks fresh
Keep it simple for commercial restaurants, you'll thank yourself
Reversing valve for defrost? Like on ice machines? Never heard of that before for walkin freezers.
@@jamesmooney5348 Yeah, I don't think that's necessary for that size walk in freezer. Maybe you put one of those on an industrial freezer you need coming out of defrost right quick? For everything else, there's electrical defrost. A reversing valve for defrost? I think that would be overkill, but maybe not?
I'm a bit too inexperienced to know if that's really necessary, or even desirable on a small walk in freezer. I think I agree with the guy in the video and it just needs a bigger unit.
@flamerollerx01 ?, what are even talking about?
dude your so honest thats so great to see and thanks for helping this place out during your busiest day so hard to find good help these days.im not a referig guy but i understand what you said.your a pro thats for sure
Walking box freezers depend on the capacity. I usually like putting two separate condenser. Two separate evaporator depend on the customer financial situation but I highly recommend it for the customer, especially ice cream box
You might have to put in a oil separator if you cannot get to the lines, install all separator to return the oil to the compressor which is very important. All my insulation I put in an oil separator into the compressor system injecting the oil back into the compressor. Metropolitude remember reduce the oil injection system back to the compressor from the oil separator do not sending a large amount of oil. It's a big problem
That DTC valve seems really similar to the EGR valve on automotive engines in purpose. They both recycle the "exhaust gasses" to cool the "combustion chamber". Pretty clever way to cool the compressor.
Just want to say, thanks for the explanation on the DTC valve. I ran into a freezer recently and I scratched my head a little when I saw that valve.
Keep it up man, thanks
Not much in a service industry sucks more than having to cover a competitor’s warranty for substandard work.
You aren’t whining, but sharing your frustration and experience. ✌️
Lol, I used to watch a guy on here that would go around and fix other peoples work sometimes. He didn’t care to show the name of other companies he was running into the ground. I finally warned him someday buddey you will be in one of the Suply houses and run into one of the people you’ve been dogging. Then it mite not end well. You’re wise to not name names.
Rules of trouble shooting:
1. Do the easiest thing first. (They shall measuring voltages!)
2. Check everything. The guy before you didn't fix it, so he did nothing! If he says he checked XY, he didn't, you have to check for yourself
3. RTFM
4. Don't fix it if it aint broken
5. Just because someone says "It always worked the way I did it" doesn't mean that it was done right
I think rule 2 and 5 apply here.
I follow these rules (what you also unknowingly do most of the time) always when dealing with stuf that someone already tried to "fix". It saves so much time
Exactly
I am an hvacr worker from socal as well, I’m just starting into the Refrigeration side, been doing HVAC for a while, how would you recommended to get a nice set of gauges and hoses such as yours? Feels like everywhere is so expensive
This is why at my work we never use suppliers to size equipment and we calculate our own heat load with real world experience. Most of the company's use them to size them but they miss the use/ duty cycle. I had one that they calculated a new plant for the room and missed it was 30yrs old box with moisture. that box took 2 days to come to temp 🤣🤣🤣
I 100% agree the compressor unit is under size. Usually it is always wise to oversize a couple of a thousand BTU bigger especially restaurant and high capacity in and out walking box. From my experience. All my my customer in restaurant fish market. I always oversize the condensing and compressor unit. Never have a problem. The only problem it is it reduce the mechanical breakdown which is less money for me but a happy customer
I'm wondering if the suction line were route or size correctly and now causes heat issue. Evap also looks weird it seem like an oil logging you can see the un-frost in the middle. I've never work on 448a (or this newer condenser unit) but judging from pt, your compressor is putting out so much heat...could it be from oiling? Thank you for this video you taught me something new.
I did warranty work on HP, Dell, and Lenovo laptops. I got thermal paste for CPU's in syringes just like that for years and years. Had a coffee mug full of them.
Great job on that one. I totally agree with you. You touch it you own it now the installing contractor can wash their hands of any warranty because someone else has worked on it. I realize that’s not your problem, but it can create a rift between you and your customer, as they demand that you become the Warranty person for a system, you did not install! All you young guys out there be careful stepping into this because ultimately you could lose a very good customer over trying to be helpful!
Did they size the equipment with the operation considering open and closing the door?
The thing with jobs like this is usually nobody wants to pay for a proper diagnosis of the full system. They just want it to run asap for as little as possible.
Makes sense to operate that way, especially for restaurants with their massive overhead and low profit margins.
The biggest frustration for me with stuff like this is the importance put on it running good right now and zero planning upfront. Same with so much stuff anymore and we are supposed to be the miracle worker after EVERYBODY drops the ball
I always love running into your videos man
My recommendation is you already know the limit of the original unit on the box. You should recommend a second compressor unit to stay up with the capacity. It is the cheapest alternative long-term. That's my recommendation, especially for a freezer
The way you described 3 new boxes, I half thought either the installer or the customer were using the wrong box in the wrong way somehow.
Also, the suction line size should be 7/8 not 5/8. There should be a p-trap every 15 ft. on the riser. I just ran line size calc with 5/8 is causing high velocity and almost 4 degree pressure drop in the suction line - if capacity was already tight to begin with, undersized suction line would only exacerbate the problem. The 7/8 operating parameters will provide optimal performance.
" they don't do really good at closing doors"
Story of my life!
Can you have a commercial quality shade cloth installed over this unit to keep the temperature down to help with the sizing?
The insulation of the box you have to see if the box is condensed in water on the outside. If the seals of the panel it is ceiling properly a walk-in freezer. You have to be very very careful, including the floor of the walking freezer
I work for a wholesaler , almost all box manufacturers size the equipment to the bare minimum, I always size boxes a little heavy , especially with R448A and high ambients
That's pretty standard heatsink compound. Both a heatsink 'pad' (probably adhesive) and the normal cheap white 'goo'.
Dude, we have this issue so much in AZ. The GCs don't do service. So they don't know. They just quick load calc and dip. I have a cooler that's sized at 8600btus but the load calc done by my rep at RSD says it should be 9200. Now that it's 125° on the roof it's struggling to bring the box down. GCs dont count for hot food pull down, store open time, how busy they are. The tiles floors nothing. I dont get it.
One thing you have to be careful with evaporators and split unit heat pump. They are a headache to clean properly a high pressure air compressor with a special spray paint nozzle does work very well for my company. Flexible nozzle also is solved the problem. The cleaning of the blower wheel which is most mechanic do not clean and this is an issue
Great job Chris straightening out some ones else mess.
Really enjoy your videos and seeing how you guys run your systems compared to here in Australia. Awesome work
Thanks
When I design a human comfort hvac system, I typically try to get close to 15% oversizing from what I calculate, because no conditions are ever perfect. And I don't get angry phone calls.
Thanks!
And I also recommend the offer code at ttt. I use it, and save.
Thank you for the support!!
I think the super heat stem should be back feeding the compressor finger me widget, so the flex capacitor doesn’t discharge early.
The unit is sized correctly, there’s just no leeway for iced up coils. I’d suggest worrying about that once the coils start to degrade and wear out, then it won’t keep up
Part of me believes that the cooler with the large coil is meant to be the freezer and this mini freezer is meant to be the cooler
New York City is the biggest corner cutting where customer put mechanics on a very tight budget. Majority of my long-term customer are majority of my job that I get is from previous mechanic and customer error. I cannot complain. It is a business. Somebody got to pay my bills. Somebody got to pay the price for being cheap. Cheap is expensive. Expensive is cheap in any business expense. I always tell my customer that if you cannot afford to pay me all at once I set up payment plans for doing the job the right way. I work with my customers. We going to do it the right way if you cannot have all the money up front. If you do not have the money to pay for the equipment that's a serious problem
Someone asked me how he could adjust a big household freezer to get up to fridge temperatures.
I told him to buy a fridge
I'm a restaurant owner who has been learning a lot about refrigeration and HVAC. Many locations I purchase and WOW, what a headache most of the time. It's just wtf decisions one after another. Cutting corners always means someone has to pay a bigger price down the road
When people get cheap and hire the lowest bidder, they get the substandard work they deserve. No offense to anyone involved, though I'm sure that could cause offense quite easily. It may cost more to go with one company over another, but if they don't honor their warranties, you have to sue them and many (most?) restaurants don't have the capital on hand to sue. For a dishonest hvac company, the risk may seem worth it in the short term, but they can lose their business once they meet someone who can actually sue.
Man, I love this channel. You have taught me so much appreciate your videos. God bless.
Thanks
i have same issue in the IT world. i hate coming in and fixing someone else’s solution. no two engineers spec the same solution