Robin Shute tells us how he chose the engine for his next Pikes Peak racer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- 4x Pikes Peak International Hill Climb winner, Robin Shute goes into detail explaining how he chose the 1000hp, 70kg engine that will go into his next Hill Climb monster.
Prototipo are the legends behind the engine:
www.prototipo....
HP Academy Podcast with Simon Longdill of Prototipo:
www.hpacademy....
The new racer is being created with the intent to go and break the overall record at the Pikes Peak mountain. This is a multi-part series going into the design, engineering and building details, sharing with us what it takes to make what could be the fastest race car ever to exist on a circuit or hill climb.
Purchase Sendy Club merch here:
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Check us out on Instagram:
@robin.shute
@thesendyclub
More thanks to:
Aerodynamic simulation made easy:
airshaper.com/
and also:
Alcon Brakes
www.alcon.co.uk/
Mountune USA
mountuneusa.com/
BorgWarner Turbos
www.borgwarner....
Motorsports Electronics
www.motorsport...
Sadev Transmissions
www.sadev-tm.com/
Gotta love the whole talk about "sensible" right after detailing absurd stats 😄
its always nice catching someone you fangirl over in the wild =)
I’m currently building an e36 GTR silhouette with double wishbone suspension. Should make some decent footage for hillclimb monsters in 2025 .
I plan to have it in thunder saloons and possibly Quick 60 if all goes to plan. ( similar to James clays / Georg Plasa) .
Man, those are mind blowing numbers! When you stated the target weight, performance and rpms, I had a feeling it was going to be a motorcycle based V8 turbo.
I own a sportsbike, and have ridden the S1000RR. I still feel grateful that we are able to buy a essentially 1:1 hp:kg vehicle that is affordable, road legal, reliable enough to be ridden everyday and has reasonable enough maintenance intervals and costs.
Using the Motec software with Assetto Corsa is such a great tool! I'm currently trying to build my proficiency in AiM's RaceStudio software, but both Motec and AiM software can work with AC, and do essentially the same thing. I'm pretty sure you need to use mods to work with the Motec software, but AiM will work "out of the box". For anybody interested in learning how to do race engineering, this is one of the easiest ways to get into it and build some valuable skills. And using it as a driver-in-the-loop simulator is cool, I'm glad to hear that it correlates pretty well. I guess I need to start learning how to input my designs into assetto corsa.
Also, this build just keeps getting crazier while being one of the most grounded and thought out series I've seen in a long time.
I was about to go to bed. Now I'm not. Wtf
This has gotta be my favorite upcoming build. The ideas and reasoning are simple and brilliant
Using that much of an established motorcycle rotating assembly is an under appreciated cheat code for engines at the bleeding edge of power to weight. Much like diesels being selected for heavy duty due to high efficiency, when you can throw highway cruising fuel economy more or less out the window the high revving production bike engines establish the opposite end of the power to weight spectrum on the mass market. The V8 config gives you a great balance of scaling that tech appropriately for a 4-wheel application while also copying as much of BMW/Kawasaki/Suzuki’s homework as possible. Super logical, very well thought through, excellent illustration of the economics part of engineering completing the picture.
Seeing a cost comparison of running this engine vs running the Honda in a race program would be very cool, please throw that in the notebook for a couple of years down the road!
And thats just so awesome that a frickn Pikes Peak champion uses Assetto Corsa as a developing tool for his actual race car is just mind blowing and speaks tons of the quality of the simulation!!
Glad to see synergy getting some more mainstream love.
Hope one day that Assetto Corsa mod can be released. Would be awesome to drive this car in a sim
Oh man, was hoping for a rotary :)
Rotarys can have amazing power to weight ratio the only problem is they produce a lot of heat and dissipating it on low density air is very difficult.
V8s are more powerful. Period
@@chadkent1241 Not that it matters given what @muxiku said, but compared to the 2, 3, and 4-rotor setups that most commonly show up when people mention rotary engines, V8s take up a ton more space even without turbos getting involved. Rotaries are likely fighting an uphill battle to make the same sort of power as engines that are much, _much_ larger. It's kind of like how Honda 4-bangers CAN make 800hp, but will struggle to sustain that power level reliably (a reason Robin himself gave for why the Wolf's K20 was a hassle).
I'm not saying a 6-rotor setup with two parallel rows of 3 rotors would necessarily be reliable enough to be viable, but one of the few 6-rotors that exists is already an 800hp engine without forced induction. I'm not so sure the power disadvantage is quite so large when one throws more rotors at the problem.
Love the series and I’m really excited about the engine choice coming from motorcycle racing. Looking forward to follow along on the journey!
Very promising and impressive potential. Go for it!
I really hope to see the details of the build! Really exciting stuff
Been waiting for this video, hell yeah!!!
I would love a video on building custom models in AC.
Or if you know of existing sources for that info.
But I’m interested in the nuances of building models for the purpose of Driver-in-the-loop type sim testing, which is probably not a common topic in AC car model building tutorials elsewhere.
Thank you! You are very generous with your knowledge and experience. Even though the scope of what you're doing is far beyond what I hope to do, I learn a lot just following your journey with your new build.
Great methods, like the goal setting and all.
Can't wait for the next one.
ha, I was right! Great to hear you are using Prototipo's S1000rr based Synergy v8. Def the engine I would use. I dream of making a 3L V12 engine based off these heads.
I would just go full GMA Cosworth at that point. Heavy, but probably takes boost no problem. That engine is rated for well over 50k miles
@@Shadowboost I'd be doing it just for the love of make my own thing.
What about using the Heads of the BMW K1600? Probably won't rev that high but if you have to build a custom bottom end anyways, you could reduce the stroke a bit
@@TheAlfvomMond because the M/S1000rr heads are highest performing mass produced heads you can get, and is where most of the R&D in an engine is. Whilst I want to make my own engine, I know I won't be able to do better than this head design. I'd either cut and weld two together to make 6 cylinder long, or scan and duplicate. Block would have to be custom billet or cast.
Thanks for another great vid. I'm already looking forward to the next one!
For the turbos exhaust management I would use E-gates you can make some tricks to reduce turbo lag, and It's very easy to do boost by gear you don't want a have a 1000hp at 1r gear.
Robin I really appreciate the thinking that is going into this project and your willingness to share your insights. And in my own small way I would like to support the project. Are you going to sell Merch (I liked the T shirt you wore in part one ) or start a Patreon?
Cool! Really looking forward to seeing you race your next car!
The K48 twin turbo by Neutron Engines was what I was hoping for. But I don’t know when that will actually exist.
I was thinking about that one too, but I think it'd be way too heavy. Even a single K24 is already at his target weight.
one of one- hope it works- wish you the best
Love these videos. Keep going
Love these insights into how you built the race car.
There are drifters that spray nitrous the whole time, but their runtime is also limited.
Regarding NA engines at altitude, it reminded me of how some WW1 fighter engines were "overcompressed" There were both elegant solutions with no user error and inelegant solutions that relied on the pilot not running the engine too hard until higher up. I have no idea if it could be miniaturized but it's an idea, most likely not worth following but it's a thing.
A friend of mine works at Prototipo and I have toured their factory. I will hit him up to see what I can help with on yours, if anything, or at least see it in person before it ships :-) neat.
You’re definitely singing my song! For years now I’ve been extremely annoyed at watching IndyCars drive around tracks at wide open throttle.
I want to start a new series called “1-to-1” the American way: 1500 lbs and 1500 HP. I want to see near 300 mph on oval straights with NO chance of getting through corners without heavy braking. Then, keeping the tires happy (another engineering nightmare) to do it for 300-500 miles.
I approached a leading team member about the above and was treated like I had a third eye. He said you’ll never get funding; you’ll never get drivers to commit and you’ll never get sponsorship. I think he was wrong. Make it the premier championship series in the U.S. and lets see what happens.
Robin, with your inate engineering background and racer’s viewpoint, you could be the conduit to give us something very special. LET’S GOOOOOOOO.
Awesome talk.
Exciting! Watching!
thank you a lot for answering my question, I definitely related to what you said and still think its very helpful to atleast know im not alone or terrible at managing my projects🤣🤣I feel slow when i dont hit my target deadlines but you're right, I just need to be hard on myself with a healthy mindset!
rev-x oil supplement to prevent corrosion when running methanol
Steve Morris swears by revX
looking forward to this
you should 100% share the wolf's assetto build one day
Sid you consider an alloy in line 6 cylinder like BMW’s S58 with a larger turbo and dry sump? Must weigh more than 100kg but bot much and well good for 1,000hp. More reliable than a 2.6litre bike based V8. Perfect primary and secondary balance. You could even use nitrous on the top of the mountain to keep the power up.
Have you considered charge cooling via water/meth injection in addition to intercoolers, as I understand it it's relatively light for the intake cooling it provides
Wouldn’t a billet block aluminum rod K24 (similar to the “4-piston-racing” guys run) hit the targets you mention? Some of these engines end up being 2.6L and making 300-400hp N/A, and some of the purely drag-oriented combinations make 2000+HP when turbocharged……the lag of a large single turbo could be mitigated in many ways but, nitrous would be the easier than making bespoke rocket style anti lag system, and given NO2 would be used in small quantities / intermittently (to get up to the boost target quickly), the “freezing” situation would likely be fully mitigated….
I enjoy your videos; keep up the good work.
I’m curious if you looked at the Italtecnica 3.0L Pre Chamber V6. It would probably have been out of the price range but it did also seem to have been a engine that fit your criteria (light, high power, reliable) as it was intended for Le Mans Hypercar when they still planned for over 1000hp in those cars.
Revs too low, requiring a much bigger gearbox. Also, but sure if they ever designed it for a true 1000 hp. Hypercar class is 650 right now and with their extra headroom, it was designed for 750ish with quite high complexity/exotic cost
@@Shadowboost The original Hypercar ruleset had higher power levels and higher weights around 850hp.
great vid. Have you chatted with Alan Millyard yet?
A rotary engine from mazda would be a good shout for lightness and hp targets.
I'd call Koenigsegg. They're making their own motors and transmissions, and they are very light.
I feel your pain, I'm shooting for low emissions and wanted to avoid turbos but it turns out I would need a 5 liter V6 (running ultra lean so needs to pump a lot of air). At the end of the day it's just easier and cheaper to squeeze the air.
So many factors to consider, literally thousands of variables. Apart from 2D cad drawings for laser cut parts all my designs are in my head and physical
Mockup/ prototypes .
Kinda old school but works for me in a fashion. 😵💫.
Integration is the key for lightweight, along with simplicity and a dash of thinking out the box .
Nice video and all interesting stuff. 👍🇬🇧
Did you consider the Nissan VK V8's? I think they have good results in V8 supercars and LMP3. Might not meet the weight targets though.
The Synergy V8 has been in Reg Cooke's land speed cars.
He was also selling a Judd V10.
Rob Dahm has a IndyCar V8
Mike Patey comes to mind regarding high altitudes and NOS.
I woud love a video that goes more indepht in the aerodynamics on the car and cfd analyses you did
Just curious are you familiar with Elmer Racing and their Thor engine?
One thing I would love to know is what stopped you simply fitting a larger turbo and turning the power up on the honda motor, we know in extreme drag racing cases they can make 1600bhp, so running around 850bhp on the mountain would be possible and the k24 would give you enough capacity, was the concern from head sealing of 200-250bhp per cylinder for extended period of time, or simply the weight of the engine?
I gotta ask.....wouldn't a 4-rotor rotary engine also match these requirements? I suppose the time required to build and prove out such an engine would be a problem for the program, but it would be cool to see and hear!
Rob Dahm collab incoming....? ; )
Nope. Rotary is VERY heavy in comparison. Think double the weight
@@Shadowboost Oh... I thought rotarys are light weight compared to a lot of car engines? But I don't know the actual weight. I guess he is talking a lot about motorcyle derived engines....
@@fredygump5578 rotaries are heavy for car engines, comparatively. The 787B 4 rotor is 400 pounds and that's naturally aspirated without forced induction. For comparison, the Porsche 962 engine that it was competing against weighed 385 pounds and that was with turbos, more power under the curve and still lighter
Exstreamly unefficient you'll have to replace the weight in fuel.
Good lad, man after my own heart. Struggles I’ve had with managers wanting plans to the Nth degree when you just need to get on with it!! I also do appreciate a bit of analogue, conceptual design. I, personally, hate computers. A necessary evil!
Engine choice, spot on.
Keep up the good work.
Bike stuff is just mega though... But can't dismiss aer and there experience in designing turbo endurance engines...
The "Mazda" based Daytona prototype does like 950 unrestricted....sub 20 psi ...
Would this car be a good place to use Subaru’s rocket anti-lag system?
i dont know if this is possible but would a 1000hp turbo 3 rotor be an idea? also i hear turbosmart have come out with some really lightweight turbos worth looking at.
Accessible and sensible technology: AWA composites ❤
Ryan Falconer sells old Indycar v8s from the 90s. Chevy branded but I think Ilmor built them.
A specific built turbo 3 rotor wankel could be an interesting option
Add an electric supercharger and a lithium battery big enough to power it all the way to the top. 2 kWh lithium polymer should do it (15 kg weight). Instant boost on demand. No exhaust restriction. Controllable boost/torque (can have constant max torque like an electric car).
I wonder is that 4 cylinder Elmer racing engine could have worked
How does the engine builder tune for the altitude change in a Dyno?
Should have hit up AER in the UK....
For powerful light engines and the gearboxes to suit I would have thought that Koenigsegg would just about be the first place to look.
Did you think about using the Ford Coyote engine drag racing are pushing 2000whp, so pushing half that would reach your target for hp, getting parts would also be easy, cost would also not be astronomic.
RPM, drag racing push them to 10k+ rpm and weight is 430 pounds, 195kgs seem like the only two big downsides. Coyote is a all aluminum engine.
You didn't consider turbocharging a Judd V8?
your thoughts on "rocket" anti lag ?
Imagine using an unrestricted super formula or super gt engine, or even better combining 2 super GT engines together.
the synergy 2k is 92kg NA, no? with boost it should be at least 150??
i was hoping you'd just say a 7gr or an m113 is good so i would think that building a top tier racecar is achievable
billet 13b semi PP would hit the targets for weight and power.. if you can afford it
Would nitromethane be an option? Or at least why not run a blend to reduce oxygen requirements?
I'm guessing that hypercar manufacturer is Czinger
How would a cotswold or judd v8 or maybe a super gt gt500 or Super Formula engine but tuned
Curious if you ever considered any turbine engines, eg a turboshaft out of a helicopter. From some quick googling they don't seem to sit too far off 1000hp 100kg, and be quite reliable, although it seems like throttle response and varying speed in general would be very problematic.
As always, loved the video, I've already learnt so much from what you have shared :)
Throttle response would be horrible. In theory, a racing CVT might just make it work. But I don't think anyone has made a racing CVT since Williams F1 team.
@@electric_boogaloo496 DAF did in European Rallycross. With rubber bands not CVT metal belts.
Not sure of the horsepower/torque input!! Around 200bhp I think.
What about a very large spring
Glorified wind up car
How about 1hp/1lb at the top of the mountain ? Aim big 😂
Ask them to build a V12 using the BMW K1600 block & heads. 3.2 liters…
13B
Next step is 1kw per pound
Colab with superfastmatt? ;)
The answer is rotary. Always rotary
Robin have you ever considered a turboed nascar v8? The dodge r5/p7s are cheaper and rev to 9k 358cui 800-900hp n/a 550ft/lbs of torque
What would that weigh?
@@cameratool so i asked this with out knowing myself. After a quick google search they weigh fully dressed besides the dry sump pump 435lbs. A touch too heavy whoopsy
@@Moneygrip not too mention the size. The Ford open wheel guys already run engines like NASCAR. He covered it in the discussion about N/A
have you considered elmer racing?
1:20 next year the car is going to have a megawatt per gram
HOWS ABOUT A SLIGHTLY WORKED CHEVY LT4 SUPERCHARGED MOTOR, 1000HP AND 1000 TQ. LONG LASTING!
Elmer racing thor engine?
Get a 3000GT VR4 motor change it from twins to quad turbocharged.
a 3000gt vr4 motor is way heavier than 100 kg, and more turbos doesnt make more power
Steve Morris....sleeving three cyl sxs out of Polaris or can am....turbo off course..or triumph three cyl?....1250 cc?....
Go kiwi
how was the k20 only a 300 mile engine at 650? turbo k20s make 1000 hp in street cars
You can’t compare a street car that will do a few pulls on the highway to an engine that will go at full tilt all 300 miles of it. Put that engine in a hillclimb car and it will grenade itself in no time.
That’s the difference between hobbyist/enthusiast and professional motorsports grade.
Electric fuel weight is through the roof! You need to look at electricity as energy. This debate is as old as Ford v. Edison
Was discussed in detail in the previous video
Might be because I'm American but when I hear 1-1 I'm thinking horsepower and pounds which is a little harder lol
1:1 hp/lb is precisely what Robin is shooting for.
@@phillglasson6357 yep, I kind of figured that's where he was going with it and I have since seen.
Didn't articulate my point well, I've always been confused as to why people would say 1-1 hp to kg because that feels like a really unnecessary way to mix units, that mostly exists for marketing claims on supercars.
Talking about light engines.... toyota made a 3 liter v10 formula 1 engine that weight 94 kilo 😋....
Revved 20.000+ rpm and produced 820 hp😂
Also forced induction or not... you are going to lose performance on altitude... afteral that is why forced induction was placed on ww2 airplane engines so they could produce enough power on high altitude.
Modern turbos spool up quickly and have little turbolag .... assuming you stay in the power band of the engine you will loose little turbo pressure and there are ways to keep the turbo spooled up.
Aim for 500kg and 2000hp.
Nitromethane?
Hear me out, instead of a V8 from bike engines get a v12 from the i6 honda bike.
Will it meet the weight and power targets? Unlikely
Will it be affordable and manageable
Definitely not
BUUUUT
Will you be the coolest team on the mountain?
Absolutely
Not sure about the mass, but it seems you miss considering an almost obvious choice - VH45DE from Nissan.
Easy to obtain, and can be built to 1000hp, but at lower RPM, with plenty of aftermarket support.