This was an outstanding conversation. Thank you so much for putting it on TH-cam for FREE! What a great service you are doing for Western Civilization, honestly. One thing that was true then, and is still true today: PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER is the way of man, and especially the way of empires. Once they forget this, the empire is over.
@@workhorse7134The Internet. Personal computers. Mobile phones. Email. Polio Vaccine. Airplanes. Panama Canal. Blues. Rock and Roll. Spaceshuttle. Human Genome Map. Splitting of the Atom. Men on the moon.
@@samchandler7747 The only ones from that list that couldn't have emerged elsewhere are the blues and rock 'n roll. We're still reading Ancient Greeks but I wonder if people will be listening to rock 2,500 years from now. Bach and Tchaikovsky have a much greater chance of living on that long.
Every now and then people will look to the fall of the Roman Empire for a cautionary lesson or predictor, learned folk discuss and disagree on the finer points, some even publish books on the topic, but to save time in digging over the same old worn ground I recommend Chauncey Gardiner: “First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”
I’m very surprised that there was not a single mention of Sir John Glubb’s The Fate of Empires. His observation of six stages of empires is exactly how we are similar to the Roman empire.
I would be even more impressed if they cited 'The Rise and Fall of Great Powers', but Paul Kennedy, a real historian, not an amateur. His work showed that in reality the essential condition for the European rise to greatness was not the Roman Empire but its collapse.
Some parts of what he said can be summarized by something I was saying for years now - Christianity was the wokeness of the ancient world. I see now more and more historians catching on, which is great.
Unherd - incredibly good as always! The question I asked myself listening to Tom Holland: Were all these sexual practices really typical for ALL Romans or were they just demonstrations of power by the elite, the senators, the very rich?
@@neilreynolds3858NO u speak of yourself and more importantly for yourself . I hope you're either in the upper echelons are in prison because if you are not your wolf encounter problems in this life and definitely in your future life
This has been my first introduction to this brilliant scholar and I have been listening to his podcasts ever since. @Tom Holland, if you by any chance read these comments, here is a suggestion for the topic of your next tome: A study of the saints of the British isles up to the grand schism of the churches. I may be wrong, but I do not think an academic work of Holland's calibre exists. This of course, would include Saints Columba, Cuthbert and Patrick. Just putting it out there😊
Great interview. Byzantium only got a single mention in the comments, but arguably it was even more impressive than the Western Empire. It lasted longer in a more hostile neighbourhood. So many peoples have an Orthodox heritage due to Byzantium.
Some even say that the Byzantium had endured and the Russian empire was a spiritual descendent of Byzantium, because the Russian statehood was consolidated through its wholesale conversion to Orthodox Christianity in the 10th century.
@@r64g That's probably going too far, but the conversion of Rus' to the Orthodox faith was a hugely important event. When Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, it became common to call it "The Third Rome" and Muscovites proclaimed that there would be no fourth, recognizing the importance of their link with Byzantium.
It is really interesting to recognize Russia as the spiritual inheritor of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman spirit had, for so many ocassions, recovered from military defeats and territorial losses to the formidable Arabs and Turks. Great emperors like Nikephoros II and Basil II brought destruction to the once victorious Arabs while Alexios I, Ioannes II and Manoul I often defeated the Turks in battle. Successive Muslim empires completely failed to conquer the whole of Anatolia before the 1204 Crusader sack of Constantinople. Later, while the Eastern Roman Empire was allegedly conquered by the Ottoman Turks, the Eastern Roman spirit was revived and embodied by the Russian Empire which often massacred the invincible Ottoman armies. @@r64g
at 28:43 "so he's literally trying to turn this person into a woman." - Freddie Sayers "and of course can't do that." - Tom Holland th-cam.com/video/kMBAHfN9dh4/w-d-xo.html
I think Tom is wrong about how different sex practices are between the Romans and the modern west. I would argue that in many places there are striking similarities. For example, the sexual dynamics within prison culture or amongst the top echelons of power (which we blatantly see with people like J. Epstein, the international sex trafficking market, etc.) But the general population is either unaware or willfully ignorant because it's uncomfortable to face.
FB I beg to differ. Tom has a very nuanced and very subtle view of these issues and what he's reflecting upon is that the public in America-- if they viewed what the public in Rome viewed --they would find it disgusting and they would be sick to their stomachs. THIS is NOT to say that the elites , and those that mingle with them n do their dirty work like Epstein, who came from Jewish working class Brooklyn ( need I say more)but rose to prominence in terms of money due to his used by the US government to basically do KOMOROMAT-- the Russian way of controlling people. In like sense prisons and those people in those prisons are similar to the upper echelons because the two extremes don't need to worryvif they're going to move from their position-- the lowest will stay in the lowest level the highest will stay in the highest level -- itis we middle-class who have morals and ethics and actually belong to usually a group that has ideas regarding what makes for good family life; a good place to raise children; a good place to prosper both spiritually and physically. I'm sorry if you missed a nuanced and in depth analysis by Tom Holland but perhaps you can reflect more upon it now
I am particularly looking forward to his book on the 60s and hope it comes out while lots of us who enjoyed that decade are still here to enjoy the read!
Tom's indicated strongly in multiple interviews that he has significantly reconsidered and rediscovered Christianity through his work on "Dominion", so I think he's definitely on the path!
En la escuela nos enseñaban sobre los griegos y romanos su filosofia, obras como la Odisea o Iliada que uno tenia que leer obligado. Pero nunca nos enseñaron al Jesus hiatorico y la gran influencia del cristianismo. Porque no? Gracias a este historiador estoy aprendiendo mucho.
emperors were needed to control senatorial aristocracy on behalf of the middle classes (among which, the legionaries).. senatorial aristocracracy went rampant at the end of republic (oligarchy) provoking several civil wars that almost destroyed Rome
The rejection by fascist institutions of the ethos of "... and the last shall become the first" is aptly pointed at as when the arc of the West, the former Christendom, bowed down. The key word is institutions, from the Latin. Those of my peers who love to say they are "spiritual" but don't abide "organized religion" know not what they are doing. They mock the Liberal Arts and decry the glut of MSW's as we visibly palpably descend. Mr. Holland is a fine example of a British scholar. I salute you and thank you Freddy for creating this forum. Regards!
World War 1 and 2 should be described era as 2nd Pax Romana in 20th century for weapons used were supposed to be for taxation for far prov inces or independent states of European and North American territories being governed by independent state governors whom governing highly skilled, educated, professional middle class workers.Weapons used by opposing groups if not destroyed have validity warranty or guarantee of 50, 100 or 150 years before it will be upgraded.
Correction for the author to consider: Titus never ordered the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. A fire broke out amongst a final stand by rebels and Roman soldiers. Titus gave orders not to sack the Temple. Loot was taken after the fact and some Roman soldiers were out of control.
Lesson 1. If you allow thousands of immigrants - many of whom quite openly despise the host countries history and traditions - into your country then it's only a matter of time until social cohesion disappears. In Britain's case we have allowed hundreds of thousands !! A country that cannot control its own borders will eventually cease to exist.
A fascinating and illuminating discussion. The point about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem is very interesting but I think it is worth noting that the Jews (not simply the Judeans) had a distinct identity already in the Empire, being a religio licita that did not sacrifice to Caesar: further they were dispersed throughout the empire a d posssessed their own identity, books and synagogues to reinforce their religious identity, unlike the other nations. I thjnk Tom Holland needs to interact more with scholars of first century Judaism. He is of course always a great writer to reckon with and you learn new things from him
U don't have to be a historian to understand that we are seeing the west collapse much like rome did. Empires rise and fall. The empires reach their peak and then it just declines
An American couple once asked me about the collapse of The Roman Empire re the troubles in their own country. I said you don’t have to look so far back, look to how Britain has mismanaged its Decline
1. don't build walls like hadrian. make the peoples in the empire and outside it equal. multilateralism and democracy. 2. let the relations between nations be like the ones between individuals in the west. a bank does not rule over my life and decide where i buy my guns and other stuff. neither does the social security administration does that. 3. limit the power of politicians to impose financial sanctions in international affairs. let the international market be free.
What great insight! Slightly rephrased: "French and Russian revolutions repudiated the institutions of Christianity and the Facists the core morality of Christianity e.g. The last will be first."
Vespasian "has an expression like a man straining for a shit" => pecunia non olet. A pissoir (also known in French as a vespasienne) is a French invention
When discussing the terrible tale of Sporus Holland exclaims that the Romans were, "not like us!" However given the horrors of our age it would seem that were not so different after all.
The first Holy Roman Empire devolution happened when Charles V divided his empire to his family members and retire to monastery. The first too empire devolution gave birth to Spanish Peninsular language language of Spaniards described as first class high grade absolute monarchy ruled by King Philip Ii and headquarter based is in El Escorial Palace.The palace was called to as ancient IMF where it stored heavy gold bars afterwards moved to treasure galleon ships or mobile banking vaults convoy by Spanish Warships.Spain was founder of mercantilism.
Thank you for this podcast. I would be very interested to know what Tom thinks the long term consequences, even to this day, the destruction of the temple in 70AD had?
First Pax Romana took placed during Roman times and capital should be the Mediterranean Seas because it solved Roman problems of mobility from one territories to another for empire governance.
Two thoughts from this excellent presentation; how will “we” be understood in an equivalent future and is there parallel discussion in “China” looking at continuities?
A glaring difference, is that the ancient Roman world didn't have to contend with global corporations, international finance and global bodies that had greater wealth and power than the Roman or any other state. There was internal - the Roman world - and the external. Globalism applies no such limits. So, applying direct comparisons is rather fallacious.
Pro consul job title claimed and given to Julius Caesar of Rome failed when he crossed the Rubicon River.He was assassinated but pro consul job title claimed and given to Napoleon of France effective when he crossed Moscow Kremlin Russia,he survived, lived and get back to France alive.
Leaving behind many thousands of his men , killed in action or starved or frozen to death, While the the great napoleon abandoned his men & ran away from the Russians
Mediterranean Seas domain of governance were expanded by King Philip II during the last tail era of Roman empire in 15th century and precious assets of King Phil II were the Spanish Armada whom he inherited from Charles V- Holy Roman Emperor for oversees exploration.
18:40 No the Triumphs were held in honor of a great victory for the safety and glory of Rome, preferably over non-Roman enemies. Feels like he's rather stretching the facts to suit the narrative of his book.
Holland's analysis on gender and sex is pretty weird here. What's different or unusual about the Roman idea of gender? They had a very clear idea of what their definitions were of male and female and what that meant in terms of power and rights. He starts off by implying that the Romans were very different to us in that regard, but then it turns out all he's talking about is the fact that homosexuality and bisexuality were routine and unremarkable for the Romans. Which is a state of affairs we've been moving back towards latterly in liberal democracies. if there is a difference, it's that progressive modern notions of gender identity would be alien to them as they were clear what being male or female meant to them. A biological woman asserting manhood or vice versa would not have been a goer, for better or worse, in Roman times. But then his analysis of so many things is peculiar. He's incredibly knowledgable and a great story teller, but god he talks an awful lot of guff. He's great on the facts, but you really wouldn't trust his insights on almost anything. In this case, as ever, it comes back to his obsession with Christianity. Christians, in turn, are obsessed with heterosexuality versus homosexuality, while the Romans were not. And so, from Holland's perspective as a Christian obsessive, the fact that the Romans were non plussed by all that is highly conspicuous. But fortunately, in liberal democracies, we're all becoming less obsessed by it, too. So, if anything what's remarkable is just how similar the Romans were on sexuality, not how different they were.
To my mind he's pointing out that in the modern, highly christian-influenced, west we are obsessed with sexual orientation and try to apply our views onto all cultures throughout history, but in reality the Romans had such a different understanding of these things that the terms 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' simply don't make sense when applied to them.
Tom Holland's naivety about contemporary sex and gender debates is adorable. He's clearly never heard of Judith Butler, never mind influential misogynist trans writers such as Grace Lavery, Juno Dawson or Andrea Long Chu, who think very much along tte Roman lines he articulates here.
Well, Mussolini was the leading Marxist in Italy for most of his life and claimed that his theory of Fascism arose from his Marxism, so perhaps there is some sort of throughline to the beliefs of Roosevelt.
Curious how Tom Holland would address the morality apparent in the writings of men like Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Zeno, Epicurus, Plato and others, that clearly contradicts his main theory about Christianity being the source of our morality today.
I love the way Tom Holland has come up with unorthodox insights into Western culture and I value his scholarship and this interview.
Smacks of damage limitation.
It's basic Nietzscheanism.
Yea brilliant
@smileytownSF No you dont
This was an outstanding conversation. Thank you so much for putting it on TH-cam for FREE! What a great service you are doing for Western Civilization, honestly.
One thing that was true then, and is still true today: PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER is the way of man, and especially the way of empires. Once they forget this, the empire is over.
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”~Marcus Aurelius
Incredible that he has the time to write books on Roman history and act as Spider-Man.
The radioactive spider bite came from a Lycosidae.......
I'd been wondering if they were the same Tom Holland since I watched the last Spider-Man, thanks for confirming it.
Unless I miss my guess, this Mr. HOLLAND doesn't have another 'day job' starring in the SPIDER MAN flix....
@@ChessErwin Sorry to inform you, but you missed your guess
He also directed the movie Child's Play I think...
"The Rest is History" with Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland is by far my favorite podcast. Learned, sofisticated and often hilariously funny❤
I heard about TH from Dominion, which I richly enjoyed. I also liked the Rest is History 4-part series on the IS civil war
@@jsong8282 Listen to all of them. They are very funny. The best episodes are without guests. Just the two of them. Enjoy. 🥰 From Stockholm
Where can one find this podcast, please?
@@elenahelen8958 it’s on Spotify and I’m sure others
@@elenahelen8958 Google Podcasts
articulate, intelligent and entertaining - it'll never catch on! (great interview)
Tom Holland is a fabulous storyteller. Many thanks Freddie.
"All empires fall. We can only hope that what we leave behind inspires respect and admiration." - Garrus Vakarian
Well that's not gonna happen with the American Empire.
@@workhorse7134The Internet. Personal computers. Mobile phones. Email. Polio Vaccine. Airplanes. Panama Canal. Blues. Rock and Roll. Spaceshuttle. Human Genome Map. Splitting of the Atom. Men on the moon.
This is my favorite comment on the UnHerd channel.
@@samchandler7747The United nations, ending slavery, the light bulb, the transistor, obese poor people, hollywood, GPS
@@samchandler7747 The only ones from that list that couldn't have emerged elsewhere are the blues and rock 'n roll. We're still reading Ancient Greeks but I wonder if people will be listening to rock 2,500 years from now. Bach and Tchaikovsky have a much greater chance of living on that long.
Was in my element listening about Roman history. Thank you Tom Holland and thank you Freddie Sayers for hosting this event.
Interesting take through modern eyes.
Every now and then people will look to the fall of the Roman Empire for a cautionary lesson or predictor, learned folk discuss and disagree on the finer points, some even publish books on the topic, but to save time in digging over the same old worn ground I recommend Chauncey Gardiner: “First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.”
Korean made a film for that: Spring,summer,autumn,winter and Spring. Kim-Ki-Duk should be the director,
Everyone should read his previous book 'Dominion'. It's fantastic and really eye-opening.
Audible is awesome Loved it ❤because Tom Holland reads it and his voice punches the vital stuff - highly recommended 😊
Is it as good as the movie, l thought the movie was fantastic.
That was so interesting & stimulating. Much food for thought.
What really got me interested in The Roman Empire was reading Winston Churchill's "The Birth of Britain" some 20 years ago.
Tom Holland is the best teacher, could listen to him all day 😊
very good historian, can't look at him though, makes me feel sick, weird creature
i would join this club if i lived in england.
I’m very surprised that there was not a single mention of Sir John Glubb’s The Fate of Empires. His observation of six stages of empires is exactly how we are similar to the Roman empire.
I would be even more impressed if they cited 'The Rise and Fall of Great Powers', but Paul Kennedy, a real historian, not an amateur.
His work showed that in reality the essential condition for the European rise to greatness was not the Roman Empire but its collapse.
Excellent discussion!! Thank you.
Outstanding!!!! One of the best interviews I have every heard...."unherd!"!!!
Some parts of what he said can be summarized by something I was saying for years now - Christianity was the wokeness of the ancient world. I see now more and more historians catching on, which is great.
How?
Simply fascinating ! Keep it up Mr Sayers (and team)! The refreshing canopy of genuine knowledge!
This was wonderful and fascinating! Especially the part about the cycles of decadence and resurgence of martial virtues.
Unherd - incredibly good as always! The question I asked myself listening to Tom Holland: Were all these sexual practices really typical for ALL Romans or were they just demonstrations of power by the elite, the senators, the very rich?
I asked myself the same question.
They're typical of humans.
@@neilreynolds3858NO u speak of yourself and more importantly for yourself . I hope you're either in the upper echelons are in prison because if you are not your wolf encounter problems in this life and definitely in your future life
@@LadyBug1967’wolf encounter’ - yes, that’s pretty weird…..
Tom Holland's Dominion is superb. Looking forward to reading this new book, too.
This has been my first introduction to this brilliant scholar and I have been listening to his podcasts ever since. @Tom Holland, if you by any chance read these comments, here is a suggestion for the topic of your next tome: A study of the saints of the British isles up to the grand schism of the churches. I may be wrong, but I do not think an academic work of Holland's calibre exists. This of course, would include Saints Columba, Cuthbert and Patrick.
Just putting it out there😊
A Zeitgeist Snapshot courtesy of Professor Holland, particularly the wondrous insights into the ending of the Julian Dynasty.
Outstanding conversation!
Thanks!
Thanks to the friendly neighbourhood historian Tom Holland, with great knowledge comes great pedagogy.
Great interview. Byzantium only got a single mention in the comments, but arguably it was even more impressive than the Western Empire. It lasted longer in a more hostile neighbourhood. So many peoples have an Orthodox heritage due to Byzantium.
Great point!
Some even say that the Byzantium had endured and the Russian empire was a spiritual descendent of Byzantium, because the Russian statehood was consolidated through its wholesale conversion to Orthodox Christianity in the 10th century.
@@r64g Ottomans were the descendants earlier than Russians. That is the reason why Ottoman is considered as "Third Rome".
@@r64g That's probably going too far, but the conversion of Rus' to the Orthodox faith was a hugely important event. When Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, it became common to call it "The Third Rome" and Muscovites proclaimed that there would be no fourth, recognizing the importance of their link with Byzantium.
It is really interesting to recognize Russia as the spiritual inheritor of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman spirit had, for so many ocassions, recovered from military defeats and territorial losses to the formidable Arabs and Turks. Great emperors like Nikephoros II and Basil II brought destruction to the once victorious Arabs while Alexios I, Ioannes II and Manoul I often defeated the Turks in battle. Successive Muslim empires completely failed to conquer the whole of Anatolia before the 1204 Crusader sack of Constantinople. Later, while the Eastern Roman Empire was allegedly conquered by the Ottoman Turks, the Eastern Roman spirit was revived and embodied by the Russian Empire which often massacred the invincible Ottoman armies. @@r64g
This was sheer pleasure 😊
at 28:43 "so he's literally trying to turn this person into a woman." - Freddie Sayers
"and of course can't do that." - Tom Holland
th-cam.com/video/kMBAHfN9dh4/w-d-xo.html
Based.
Fascinating! Thank you!!
Totally fascinating, and christmas presents (the book, Pax) sorted - many thanks!
Amazing. Well done!
I think Tom is wrong about how different sex practices are between the Romans and the modern west. I would argue that in many places there are striking similarities. For example, the sexual dynamics within prison culture or amongst the top echelons of power (which we blatantly see with people like J. Epstein, the international sex trafficking market, etc.) But the general population is either unaware or willfully ignorant because it's uncomfortable to face.
Humans do not change much in these areas. 😂😢
FB I beg to differ. Tom has a very nuanced and very subtle view of these issues and what he's reflecting upon is that the public in America-- if they viewed what the public in Rome viewed --they would find it disgusting and they would be sick to their stomachs. THIS is NOT to say that the elites , and those that mingle with them n do their dirty work like Epstein, who came from Jewish working class Brooklyn ( need I say more)but rose to prominence in terms of money due to his used by the US government to basically do KOMOROMAT-- the Russian way of controlling people. In like sense prisons and those people in those prisons are similar to the upper echelons because the two extremes don't need to worryvif they're going to move from their position-- the lowest will stay in the lowest level the highest will stay in the highest level -- itis we middle-class who have morals and ethics and actually belong to usually a group that has ideas regarding what makes for good family life; a good place to raise children; a good place to prosper both spiritually and physically. I'm sorry if you missed a nuanced and in depth analysis by Tom Holland but perhaps you can reflect more upon it now
Great discussion
I am particularly looking forward to his book on the 60s and hope it comes out while lots of us who enjoyed that decade are still here to enjoy the read!
Who would have thought that Spiderman was such a scholar. I suppose with all this power... he had to channel it somewhere in his free time.
Amazing show!
PAX. How I wish I was able to attend your conference scheduled in September. Thank you for your video.
Tom Holland is a treasure
Tom - praying for you to personalise your amazing understanding of Gods work on earth in Christ. Also this show is always great. God bless
Tom's indicated strongly in multiple interviews that he has significantly reconsidered and rediscovered Christianity through his work on "Dominion", so I think he's definitely on the path!
Daft 😂
An expression "like a man taking a shit". Classic! I know a few of those kinds today!
I’m imagining Vitalious in a Wigan rugby league shirt and the crowds chanting “Who ate all the pies?”
Great guest and interview. I would have included Aurelian on his impactful emperor list, but what the hey.
Thanks
En la escuela nos enseñaban sobre los griegos y romanos su filosofia, obras como la Odisea o Iliada que uno tenia que leer obligado. Pero nunca nos enseñaron al Jesus hiatorico y la gran influencia del cristianismo. Porque no? Gracias a este historiador estoy aprendiendo mucho.
Great. Where can I get a "Barbarian" T-Shirt?
Excellent discussion.
emperors were needed to control senatorial aristocracy on behalf of the middle classes (among which, the legionaries).. senatorial aristocracracy went rampant at the end of republic (oligarchy) provoking several civil wars that almost destroyed Rome
Thanks for the discussion..the Roman empire does seem rather harsh..wonder if there's no other way for great civilisations to develop. X
All empires were harsh. What's ur point. And let me say that life was harsh back then
Thank you for this video
The rejection by fascist institutions of the ethos of "... and the last shall become the first" is aptly pointed at as when the arc of the West, the former Christendom, bowed down. The key word is institutions, from the Latin. Those of my peers who love to say they are "spiritual" but don't abide "organized religion" know not what they are doing. They mock the Liberal Arts and decry the glut of MSW's as we visibly palpably descend. Mr. Holland is a fine example of a British scholar. I salute you and thank you Freddy for creating this forum. Regards!
👀 me, watching this from Romania, contemplating our existence
Been saying we need a Vespasian for years. Boris wasn't one. Quite clearly.
Boris is a fat clown... so more Vitellus than Vespasian
My thanks. Carry on!
Bloody amazing!
I could have listened two more hours of this.
World War 1 and 2 should be described era as 2nd Pax Romana in 20th century for weapons used were supposed to be for taxation for far prov inces or independent states of European and North American territories being governed by independent state governors whom governing highly skilled, educated, professional middle class workers.Weapons used by opposing groups if not destroyed have validity warranty or guarantee of 50, 100 or 150 years before it will be upgraded.
Correction for the author to consider: Titus never ordered the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. A fire broke out amongst a final stand by rebels and Roman soldiers. Titus gave orders not to sack the Temple. Loot was taken after the fact and some Roman soldiers were out of control.
Italy and Germany looked like expanded notation size of Roman Colosseum center gladiatorial combat zones in World War 2.
Sounds like today
What amazed me was that the kingdom of king Philip II was not yet started untill now in 21st century.
Tom Holland as brilliant as ever, this was both stimulating and enjoyable to watch/listen to.
Lesson 1. If you allow thousands of immigrants - many of whom quite openly
despise the host countries history and traditions - into your country then it's only a matter of time until social cohesion disappears. In Britain's case we have allowed
hundreds of thousands !! A country that cannot control its own borders will eventually cease to exist.
Very good, that. Most enjoyable.
Holy shit the description of Roman men and how they use their penis' is so fucking based lmao
A fascinating and illuminating discussion. The point about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem is very interesting but I think it is worth noting that the Jews (not simply the Judeans) had a distinct identity already in the Empire, being a religio licita that did not sacrifice to Caesar: further they were dispersed throughout the empire a d posssessed their own identity, books and synagogues to reinforce their religious identity, unlike the other nations. I thjnk Tom Holland needs to interact more with scholars of first century Judaism. He is of course always a great writer to reckon with and you learn new things from him
U don't have to be a historian to understand that we are seeing the west collapse much like rome did. Empires rise and fall. The empires reach their peak and then it just declines
An American couple once asked me about the collapse of The Roman Empire re the troubles in their own country.
I said you don’t have to look so far back, look to how Britain has mismanaged its Decline
Interesting point about Rome and China.
1. don't build walls like hadrian. make the peoples in the empire and outside it equal. multilateralism and democracy.
2. let the relations between nations be like the ones between individuals in the west. a bank does not rule over my life and decide where i buy my guns and other stuff. neither does the social security administration does that.
3. limit the power of politicians to impose financial sanctions in international affairs. let the international market be free.
Sounds like Libertarianism, which unfortunately seems unable to get any traction in the western world.
@@LTVoyager no, this is how my life looks like. politicians in e.g. the us cannot decide in which state in the us i do business.
What great insight!
Slightly rephrased:
"French and Russian revolutions repudiated the institutions of Christianity and the Facists the core morality of Christianity e.g. The last will be first."
Vespasian "has an expression like a man straining for a shit" => pecunia non olet. A pissoir (also known in French as a vespasienne) is a French invention
I've read all of Tom Holland's. What a pleasure to see him interviewed. Thank you from Oregon!
When discussing the terrible tale of Sporus Holland exclaims that the Romans were, "not like us!" However given the horrors of our age it would seem that were not so different after all.
The first Holy Roman Empire devolution happened when Charles V divided his empire to his family members and retire to monastery. The first too empire devolution gave birth to Spanish Peninsular language language of Spaniards described as first class high grade absolute monarchy ruled by King Philip Ii and headquarter based is in El Escorial Palace.The palace was called to as ancient IMF where it stored heavy gold bars afterwards moved to treasure galleon ships or mobile banking vaults convoy by Spanish Warships.Spain was founder of mercantilism.
Vespassian was a great emperor.
What a gorgeous venue! Does anyone know the name of the place?
Ah, answered my own question - the Unherd Club in Westminster. Who’d have thunk it?
Thank you for this podcast. I would be very interested to know what Tom thinks the long term consequences, even to this day, the destruction of the temple in 70AD had?
First Pax Romana took placed during Roman times and capital should be the Mediterranean Seas because it solved Roman problems of mobility from one territories to another for empire governance.
Thx
this is great
Two thoughts from this excellent presentation; how will “we” be understood in an equivalent future and is there parallel discussion in “China” looking at continuities?
Word.
Ancient Rome sounds like Hollywood.
A glaring difference, is that the ancient Roman world didn't have to contend with global corporations, international finance and global bodies that had greater wealth and power than the Roman or any other state. There was internal - the Roman world - and the external. Globalism applies no such limits. So, applying direct comparisons is rather fallacious.
Tom is outstanding and UnHerd was an instant sub for me
Pro consul job title claimed and given to Julius Caesar of Rome failed when he crossed the Rubicon River.He was assassinated but pro consul job title claimed and given to Napoleon of France effective when he crossed Moscow Kremlin Russia,he survived, lived and get back to France alive.
Leaving behind many thousands of his men , killed in action or starved or frozen to death,
While the the great napoleon abandoned his men & ran away from the Russians
"What beasts these Romans be!"
Mediterranean Seas domain of governance were expanded by King Philip II during the last tail era of Roman empire in 15th century and precious assets of King Phil II were the Spanish Armada whom he inherited from Charles V- Holy Roman Emperor for oversees exploration.
All very interesting, but what did the Romans ever do for us?
Tourist destination in Rome
18:40 No the Triumphs were held in honor of a great victory for the safety and glory of Rome, preferably over non-Roman enemies. Feels like he's rather stretching the facts to suit the narrative of his book.
Well said. I completely agree.
Holland's analysis on gender and sex is pretty weird here. What's different or unusual about the Roman idea of gender? They had a very clear idea of what their definitions were of male and female and what that meant in terms of power and rights. He starts off by implying that the Romans were very different to us in that regard, but then it turns out all he's talking about is the fact that homosexuality and bisexuality were routine and unremarkable for the Romans. Which is a state of affairs we've been moving back towards latterly in liberal democracies. if there is a difference, it's that progressive modern notions of gender identity would be alien to them as they were clear what being male or female meant to them. A biological woman asserting manhood or vice versa would not have been a goer, for better or worse, in Roman times.
But then his analysis of so many things is peculiar. He's incredibly knowledgable and a great story teller, but god he talks an awful lot of guff. He's great on the facts, but you really wouldn't trust his insights on almost anything. In this case, as ever, it comes back to his obsession with Christianity. Christians, in turn, are obsessed with heterosexuality versus homosexuality, while the Romans were not. And so, from Holland's perspective as a Christian obsessive, the fact that the Romans were non plussed by all that is highly conspicuous. But fortunately, in liberal democracies, we're all becoming less obsessed by it, too. So, if anything what's remarkable is just how similar the Romans were on sexuality, not how different they were.
To my mind he's pointing out that in the modern, highly christian-influenced, west we are obsessed with sexual orientation and try to apply our views onto all cultures throughout history, but in reality the Romans had such a different understanding of these things that the terms 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' simply don't make sense when applied to them.
Roman castrated young boys , yeah we are nothing like Romans , i can't imagine that bening socially excepted now
How often do you think about the Roman Empire?
Tom Holland's naivety about contemporary sex and gender debates is adorable. He's clearly never heard of Judith Butler, never mind influential misogynist trans writers such as Grace Lavery, Juno Dawson or Andrea Long Chu, who think very much along tte Roman lines he articulates here.
Thom these r deviant minorities which all cultures have but reflect NOTHING as regards the civilization in question
I can guarantee you that not one out of a hundred people know who the fuck Juno Dawson is.
@@Adsper2000yes; but Tom Holland is a one out of a hundred type of person.
One of the inventors of fascism, Mussolini, said that he recognized US President Roosevelt, as a fellow fascist
Trusting Mussolini?
Well, Mussolini was the leading Marxist in Italy for most of his life and claimed that his theory of Fascism arose from his Marxism, so perhaps there is some sort of throughline to the beliefs of Roosevelt.
Christianity put an end to that barbarism
Exactly!
Nah bro, we need to run it back.
Wealth is making them weak and soft...yes.
Curious how Tom Holland would address the morality apparent in the writings of men like Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Zeno, Epicurus, Plato and others, that clearly contradicts his main theory about Christianity being the source of our morality today.