Mosaic is the demonstration they cannot design something tasteful. It has D3 philosophy in it, an item that dictates the playstyle too heavily, invalidating everything else and overshadowing the skill tree choices. I hate it.
This is an absolute end game build that doesn't really influence ANYTHING tho. By the time you have gotten this build BY YOURSELF... You would have mindlessly been farming for days trying to collect all the pieces to this puzzle. Unless you trade for the items. It's a build that literally serves no real purpose other then pizzazz at the end of it all. As you will have already done everything by the time you manage to collect the runes and equipment to make it. So whats the issue? an end game OP build that requires practically days and days of farming... When you can get these kind of results far sooner just playing a paladin nowadays for the most part. Confusing to hate on something that basically has no use outside "this is kinda awesome" after you have farmed it up for days :|
@@Am4t3r4suas a SSF I’ve been playing D2R for 3 years and mosaic is still my only character that can farm hell baal. Without it I’d have 0 tokens and would have bricked all my characters. I’m probably in the minority but I don’t understand why people think it’s too good.
I played MA sin without mosaic before mosaic existed. The only fix it needed is generating and spending charges regardless if attack connected, then you could combo your moves very consistently. The charge non-consume is bad and needs to go completely. Instead they could add some good stuff to the charge-up attacks so they don't feel boring and useless
I said the same thing. Make the charge up attacks do something and give a charge. Then have mosaic grant two charges at once. So if you have double mosaic you are granted full charges with one attack. This way you can use just one mosaic if you want a certain charge everytime.
Melee builds are some of the most powerful builds in the game at full gear. If you mean they fix melee in the early/mid game, that's a different story.
I really like the design philosophy behind mosaic: Most of the game your character struggles with a built-in limitation (building and then expending martial arts charges in this case), and then once you grind up end game items you can make a new build that removes the limitation. This is what makes key items in diablo so rewarding to find: build an isight polearm for your merc, and suddenly you don't need to worry nearly as much about mana consumption and can lean into spamming your high cost skills. Build enigma, now you can teleport. Even sunder charms-- Find a good one, and now you don't have to worry as much about monster immunities. You get this super rewarding feeling of unlocking a new level of play. I like mosaic assassins a lot and I would like to see every class get an end game build that is similar: something that can blow through p8 chaos at virtually the same speed you can clear den of evil. BUT I agree that the mosaic sin is a little too powerful for the cost. The closest analog is a nova sorc, which is what, 5x more expensive to build? And still doesn't clear as fast (though is more convenient to play since you don't need to build/maintain charges).
That and... MA is the best for a lot of content. But it's not the best for all content. My blizz sorc is still going to clear Stony faster. Your charges dissipate before Diablo spawns, so a paladin is still better for CS. Assassins can't hork, so a zerker is better for Trav. I have a double Mosaic sin on my single player, but I don't use it all the time. It's just one tool in the box.
@@michaeltorrisi7289mind blast and you can keep charges for Diablo. No one clears faster stone tombs than Javazon and mosaic dude. Blizz cannot compare.
The charge up skill itself should perform an ability, not just charge, then the finisher unleashes a harder hitting move with the charge. Problem solved. No mosaic even required for martial arts to have a cool playstyle then. Then take away the mosaic ability of not consuming charges and make it so that one hit of a charge up skill gives you 2 charges at once. This way two mosaic will fully charge with one hit, but one mosaic will still be decent.
this is probably closer to the right answer than anything else i've read, it solves the problem of the charge up abilities not really doing until you release your finisher as you say, it allows mosaic and finishers to have different functionalities that add an extra dimension to the build, rather than being the primary moving part of the build
Mosaic was cool when it came out because the implication was they were trying new things, adding a bit of spice etc. No one realized they were going to abandon the game entirely
I did. It's why i said the original hustle weapon runeword was perfect to fix most of the problems melee had. It allowed 2h weapons to hit reasonable breakpoints. Llama argued it was "too op" and nerfed it into a merc weapon because it was going to be "too optimal and too clunky to swap and proc." Except the irony today is that some melee builds, to get decent ias breakpoints, use a metamorphosis (druid runeword!) by swapping to a beast, transform into a werebear, wack an enemy to get DR and skill ias from the metamorph proc, then swap and transform out of werebear. The metamorph proc lasts about as long as the old burst of speed hustle proc... except you get DR over movement speed. But you also need cham and ber runes... Thanks llama.
Fix: add mosaic all damage reduced to 1/20, every different charge buff on you reduces your charge releated damage to half. So you want to build charges you need.
To start: 1. Dragon talon should only release effects on first kick 2. Decrease maximum to 2 active MA's at once 3. Increase to 100% chance to not consume charges on Mosaic 4. Remove charge expire timer I'd like to keep them in S-tier, but encourage diversity in how they can be built
I feel like just making the holding of charges a baseline of the class, but rebalanced would be better. Having a mechanic that is core of making a build viable, part of an item runeword is stupendous design.
there is no diversity by doing this. youre just meta shifting. maximum to 2 charge up skills means everyone uses claws of thunder and phoenix, which is 95% of hte damage and what people already use anyway.. if anything youre removing diversity by preventing people from being able to mix and match FoF/cobra/tiger. on top of that, youre making dragon talon useless for martial arts builds that use charge ups, even if they don't use mosaic. skills shouldn't be balanced around the existence of one item, that's bad design. they need to take the mechanic off of mosaic, make it default to all chargeups, and rebalance the chargeup skills around the mechanic being constant. or change the mechanic entirely.
I'd say: Ad.2. instead of "Decream maximum to 2 active MA'a at once" -> make a global limit of 6/7 stacks from MA, that can be active... Ad.4. Just lift it up from 15s, to something more longlasting... 3-4 minutes maybe ? (that basicaly makes it almost permament)
The solution is easy for me, first add affix where Never lose the charges no límited to 15 seconds and put the cooldown in the final attack charge, example now in the game in 1 second you make 6 kicks so you do 6x5 =30 final attacks charges per second, put a cooldown to cannot repeat the same charge attack in .5 second so even you have 6 kicks only do 2 final attack per second i mean 2x5= 10 final attacks per second
I think a lot of these changes sound really good. Especially the idea of not consuming charges by default so you could level with this build. Then updating Mosaic into charges don't expire. Whatever balance changes are needed afterwards could be done but overall I would still like it to be one of if not the strongest build. After so many years of hammerdin, any sorceress, and javazon being the meta, it's nice to log into D2 after decades of playing and have a new top dog.
Change from "Mal-Gul-Amn" to "Mal-Ohm-Zod" thus it won't be as attainable. Such a gg item shouldn't be easier to make than say Kingslayer (Mal-Um-Gul-Fal).
I never understood why people push for nerfs in PvE centric video games... Just let us have our fun or bring the other classes in line with the "broken" ones.
I never could grasp that either. It’s like people complain about power fantasy these days. Especially when players like Llama only represent the few percent that are pro compared to everyone else…Especially when runes have always been a pain to grind. I find myself playing more indie games these days
This makes absolutely no sense. If you bring the other classes in line with the broken ones, it accomplishes the same thing as nerfing the broken on to be on par with the other classes. It's just FAR less work than your suggestion.
The point of the charges is that they give you a lot of damage over a short period of time (burst dam age), if they would have 50% on all weapons or lose just one charge at a time, there will little to no drawbacks for this class, making it even more op.
So basically you’re using like 10 skills at once in 1 blow? Who thought this would be a good idea, this would be like if the sorceress casted, fireball, blizzard, blizzard orb, fire wall, chain lightning and all, all at the same time…
I personally like the idea of not having to spend time charging up for one cool attack... I dont play MA assassin but I feel like this gives the people who do, have a fun spammable skill. Kinda like 99% of the other D2R classes...
There aren’t gonna be anymore changes. This is the final state of D2. We’re stuck with this broken eyesore of a build dominating the game forever. And y’all thought everyone playing a hammerdin was bad 😂
Nobody actually plays with people in diablo 2 outside of like... rushing and baal runs. You're stuck with nothing. Just pretend the item doesn't exist and it won't impact you basically at all.
Proc on first kick only is incredibly reasonable and still strong. People might use Dragon Tail instead just to get more procs, or have to sacrifice skill points in Talon to minimize extra kicks.
The character’s finisher charges remind me of DoTA’s hero, Invoker, who invokes three elements in permutations that give him different abilities and stats. I like the idea of limiting the charges to two or three at once, so you’ll need to min/max within the limits. Been enjoying your content! Thanks for all the information 🙏🏻
yes, IIRC mosaic assassin holds the world record for ubers. only after having been released a few patches, i think this is clear indication it's the strongest build in the game. you should be able to do anything in the game with it. it even comes with a psuedo teleport
I think they’re the right price because that’s when you start going into the build as an assassin and you’re always gonna want to make it better claws or yeah, with more mods on them or better elemental damage, so I think the cost is reasonable because there’s always a better claw base waiting another claw and the build is very successful. If it’s number one that’s not for everyone but no why alienate people who enjoy the build from the game?
1. You can only have 3x charges of anything at a time. Example of combo charge. Tiger strike level 1, thunder claw level 2, Phoenix strike level 3x or another example, tiger strike level 1, tiger strike level 2, tiger strike level 3. Casting a 4th charge ability overwrites the last charge.
Instead of giving every claw mini mosaic charge retention, I prefer specific charge generation (no possible way of 100% generation) on non mosaic and limit maximum active charge especially on dual mosaic.
Mosaic may as a runeword make more sense to be restricted to not work with kicks, but I do like the idea of just baking the bonus into claws as I feel it would allow for more niche builds. This also opens up options around how to implement Mosaic and implications it would have I really want to see a runeword that can be used in claws that is both decent while also granting access to ethereal weapons, it feels like a missing piece to the puzzle in general, this would be nice to see on daggers as well as maybe maces, just allowing more variety into the game ~ giving assassins really anything to uniquely compete against grief would be nice too
PD2(s6 or s7) figured ma sin out. Some balancing with that concept and it will be pretty neat, the only problem is the finishers become not finishers i guess but kicksin still exists so no waste there. The builder is also the finisher and it applies the individual charges on each step and releases them after the last charge, rinse repeat. You are not frustrated by having a slightly longer loading screen and losing all your charges, less clunk more bonk. Opens up all the choices you can use fist of fire for bosses other stuff for immunity. Obviously remove the charge not consuming thing and keep the elemental damage on mosaics and then it will still be really good for elemental damage assassins. Any form of stacking multiple charges will result in a mess or clunk. Essay over and out!
I said a long time ago before mosaic even got announced that they should make change to not consume a charge part of the material skill tree. Every level in any martial skill gives a 2% chance to not consume any charges on any skill. You are going to be invested in metal skills for a martial build anyway. This gives the l martial arts assassin a use while leveling and gearing. Then nerf the skills down to a reasonable damage or limit charge ups to 6 total charges of any mix of skills. This will bring the damage back down to something competitive and force players to pick and choose their skills rather than just charging up everything. Then make the charges last forever until you discharge them. Like an iron golem, they travel with you from game to game and act to act until you get rid of them on purpose. The only problem this would leave is how to discharge them if you have 100% chance to not use a charge on your skills .this would mean you have to make it so the charges cycle through,as in if you have 3 charges of a certain skill and you cast it again, you reset that skill to zero charges. Obviously this is just a rough draft of a way to set up martial, and I put a lot more thought and details into it back before mosaic was released, but I feel like building chance to not use a charge directly into the martial tree is the only way to do it. This will give players the opportunity to use different weapons and a shield if they would like, or still run 1 mosaic if they want to or if they only want to level 1 or 2 charge up skills and need the extra % to not consume a charge.
Change "Claw Mastery" to be useful, remove the attack Rating, Damage increase and Crit strike increases to a Base Point increase of 5% of the Mosaic effect as well as a timer increase. i.e. at base point 20 you will have 100% chance of not losing a charge. (this will limit the amount of skill points available to the other skill slots). Then - as you say, only release the charge you have - either the first, second or third depending on which charge you have active. Charge 1 will be single target damage, two will be multiple target, three will be increase area of effect. Change the effect of the 3rd phoenix cold effect to only freeze without dealing damage etc... The mosaic runeword could then only be about reducing monster elemental resistance and increase elemental skill damage.
instead of nerfing things, why not buff right? And its not like you are forced to play it, there are plenty of other builds that you can play, unless you're all about efficiency and minmaxing, which nothing should be built around someone like that anyways
I'd prefer this solution: While a charge up skill is equipped on the left click, have finishers on the right click automatically charge up the equipped charge up skill. Make it so that it cycles through each charge's effect as the finisher hits. This will remove the annoyance of having to spend time charging up. You can also make it so that if you have two charge up skills equiped (one on left click and one on right click), both charge ups cycle through and release each of the charges effects on hit. That way you can use two at the same time. I like all of llamas suggested changes as well.
To recapitulate some of Llama's suggestions, as well as add some of my own: 1) 5% chance to not consume charges on each individual charge-up skill, for the maximum of 100% at 20 skill points. 2) Regarding the skills with simultaneous triple effects, only the 3-charge effect should be released on attack, rather than 1-, 2- and 3-charge effects all at once. 3) No more than two charged-up skills may be active at once, so Lightning + Freeze, or Physical + Life/Mana Leech, or Fire + whatever else. This way, the played would be 'forced' to adapt to monster type, density and immunities on the fly, potentially rendering gameplay more engaging (or annoying; a matter of perspective, really). 4) With the latter version, Mosaic could have the unique mechanic of extending the maximum number of active charged-up skills by 1, for example. Or it could just provide decent bonuses to elemental damage as it already does, perhaps at a higher percentage. 5) As far as some of the more unhinged ideas go, the power of the released charge-up attack could depend on the finishing move releasing it. Basically, the Dragon Talon hits multiple times in quick succession but the charges released that way only inflict 1/10 of added damage/effect percentage (the number is arbitrary), Dragon Flight's release does 1/3, Dragon Claw's release does full damage, etc. This might make finishing moves besides Dragon Talon and Dragon Flight less irrelevant, as well as tone down the damage output. Mosaic's issues ultimately stem from the fundamental flaws in Assassin's Martial Arts' design, which is interesting and unique in the sense of framing gameplay into a combo attack pattern, but is simply not awfully viable or comfortable to execute time and time again, as such frame is pretty much a Procrustean bed to the player. Mosaic's most crucial component is not to blame really, so integrating it into Martial Arts, with some accompanying adjustments, should be the correct choice. ...or would be, in a world where the devs keep on further ironing out the game's longstanding issues, since I've become convinced somewhat recently that no major changes - such as Mosaic's very introduction - will take place in the future.
> framing gameplay into a combo attack pattern I think a big shortcoming in this design is that it's an _unreliable_ combo attack pattern: you can fail to charge up (or discharge) if your attacks don't connect. Someone else made what I think is the fundamentally right suggestion: make the acquisition and discharge of charges unconditional. Your physical damage (and other weapon effect) may whiff but you always get the charge; I guess if a discharge of Tiger/Cobra whiffs you get zero benefit. The big challenge with MA skills today is that the specific attack/effect you unleash with a discharge depends on how many charges of each kind you have, which depends on how many times you've used the build-up, modified by how many times you've missed. Therefore, to unleash a specific combination of charges you must carefully monitor whether you build up the charge, then rapidly react by switching to a different attack to not get too many charges, or waste time getting excess charges, or perform build-ups that do nothing (instead of finishing moves). This means MA sins need to be piloted with insanely quick reaction times and constant monitoring, which is very draining. If you can release phoenix lightning after exactly 3 attacks (rather 3 + #misses), that makes the whole thing much easier to predict which in turn allows you to plan on a ~2s by 2s basis which skill to use next, rather than doing so on a frame-by-frame basis. I believe having a long enough planning horizon _would_ make combo attacks work. Imagine if your sorc's right-button attack random jumped around within its skill tree 2.5 times per second, and you had to right click when the right skill was selected. This would be hell to play. That's the design mistake of MA sins, and predictable effect selection would fix a lot of it. What's then left to adjust, if anything, is the power level of the MA skills. I don't mind varying power levels across builds so long as I'm not stuck with a total clunker (or I know what I get myself into), so maybe not? Would it break Phoenix Strike if the elemental damage mostly ignored the target's defense? It doesn't seem to break Hydra or Frozen Orb or whatever, so maybe not? The worst thing Mosaic could be is a fix for the MA sins' problems-then it becomes a mandatory rune word which excludes other items if you have it and makes MA sins remain bad for those who don't. Someone suggested to make Mosaic preserve its "taste the rainbow" effect but make the charges deal significantly reduced damage/effects. Then you still get the fun everything-all-at-once effect but without soloing /players over 9000. Seems fine to me. Or Blizzard could delete Mosaic and refund the runes, i.e.make the weapon unequipped and unequippable, and if you ever have it in your inventory with enough free slots the runes "fall out" of the weapon, un-rune-wording itself. But that would admit a mistake.
I think moving the mosaic effect to claws or skills would be a good move. Would also allow for a little more build diversity - to allow us to use other claws (bartucs, firelizards etc) or runewords
A simple question did you not think about this once you and every other streamer recommended the buffs to go up from 25%>50%? :D It was clear as day that it was going to be way too op but you guys didnt mind back then. People dont even play the build(the only ones that suffer i guess are the players who gun for ladder first 99 cause the build is too good in that aspect once you start farming P8 TZs). Other than that last two ladders i havent seen many sins actually play it beside the one that hit 99 and few in baal games but they were pretty rare on EU atleast. Instead of nerfing it i suppose you can just change the runes of the runeword and just make it pricier.Because just nerfing it to 25% will kill the MA build again and with no people to work on the game to update/change the MA tree(reffering to recommendations like Warren's Mosaic post+ talking about MA changes in general) will be kinda pointless. Leave the gul,mal and add a Sur or if you want it to be even more rare go Ber/Jah.
This is my argument. Yea the build is "OP"... but who actually plays it? Yea it's strong, but you STILL don't see it utilized that often in comparison to how simple and safe traps are still. It's an end game "for fun" build mostly that you can put together after you been farming for god knows how long to get lucky with the rune drops. I figure you earned it after all the crazy low drop rates associated with diablo 2 anyway.
@@Am4t3r4su are u kidding? mosaicsins are everywhere, and being able to only play it in the endgame is one of the problems with mosaic. MA sin sucks. mosaic only helped MA sin get power in endgame. what about the rest of the game?
One step in the right direction would be to allow you to build a maximum of 2 types of charges at all times and take it from there with the ballance. Cheers!
I think they should change the increase by 8-15% on cold, lightning, and fire damage to decrease instead and also remove the attack speed bonus. The claws just have too much going on with how good 100% chance finishing moves to not be consumed is. That bonus to the charges lasting forever should be the focus of the rune word with some negative damage to offset it, and the removal of the attack speed will help bring down how OP it is as well and allow the player to actually see the combat.
What about charge up skills after fully charge, expend those charges without losing the charge for that skill only. Finishing moves expend all charges. This means charge up skills still have a use rather than charge them once and forget about them. Then finishing moves can have a larger burst. Then adjust the runeword to trigger all charges when using a charge up skill with a huge burst damage boost if used with a finisher that expends charges
I don't want to sound disrespectful, but weren't you the one who proposed that Mosaic have a 50% chance instead of the original 25% that Blizzard presented?
Yea he was. He also was the one that proposed to ruin the weapon version of Hustle which is only good as a merc weapon now. I remember the argument was, "this isn't the way to help melee, they should do something else next patch." Look where we are over a year later now. Dead game.
@@jprec5174 I've heard 'dead game' in multiple games I play. Never has it been true. If it were, you wouldn't bother saying it because there would be no one to listen. There's currently 20k+ players in HCL, 200k+ SCL, and then more in NL. If you don't want to play, don't. We'll have fun without you.
These content creators don't really know how to make the game better but only whines on what they want and when the result is bad they're gonna make a content about it. It's like a loop of BS for monetization scheme. D2 was great but it got old. Glad Blizzard didn't made a huge change on the game because it's perfect as it is.
@@cinecastmedia Not all people making d2 videos are like that, this one here is a fine af exemple of one that is like that, he should clearly stick with just making guides and having fun etc etc. Knowing the direction the game is supposed to go is not for everyone at all and is good that viewers know that so they can ignore people saying crap and make that diference when they need to.
I agree on almost everything you say. Want to add that cobra strike, maybe they could make it so hard points make it better, and +skills only gives equal to 1 hard points for every 10 +skills.
I’m not sure if you thought of this but this might be a good compromise. You can stack charges the same but you do consume charges when you hit an enemy… you consume one type of charge until you have one type of charge left…. And the consumed charges will be at random leaving you with only one type of charge. You might be left with fire charges against andariel and be king or be left with tiger strike against physical immune boss pack and be sol…. Would nerf the build a bit without losing too much and bringing in an element of chance into even using it.
Grateful for your perspective. Agree with cobra strike and claws of ice changes. I suspect your focus is exclusively on pvm and that's fine. Adding 'charges never falls off when donning mosaic' but still having it possess the same power would make mosaic MA assassins (mmaas) so much more cancerous for pvp. This would mean that mmaas would no longer need their alt account sitting in town to maintain their charges while they bm other players. They would just be free dart around the whole moor instead of just hanging around at the encampment entrance, refilling charges. Still a horribly bm build, but bound by available monsters or alt accounts in the Moor. Tyreal's might updated w +naught skill teleport and absorbs all elemental damage +40%, anyone?
Man the MosaicSin reminds me of the Summonmancer because if with him if you summoned all of the types of minions that he gets access to you could lag the game very badly. I agree with you about putting 100% chance of MA skills using up 0 charges on the claws themesleves because you can use only 1 claw and have the 2nd hand free for a shield or another claw. I also agree with your 2nd option of having the the chance of not consuming charges on the skills as well because it will make the MAsin similar to a throw barb. Another thing that they can do is increase the expiration timer of the charges like 0.5 seconds per every other level per MA skill or something so it doesn't even become more OP. Yeah it is a must that they move the don't consume charges thing to either MA skills or the Claws themselves because on how expensive dual mosaics are in terms of runes. I would love to run a MAsin that uses a Plague runeword for the Lower res proc which will help the dmg of your elemental attacks.
I think the only thing wrong is the overdependance on Mosaic to make martial art viable. From the moment I saw it I felt like they should take some of the chance to not spend charges from the runeword and add it to the finisher skills themselves. The charge duration refresh should also be entirely baseline. This means with mosaic you could still have the current result, but you are good enough without it that you can explore more options.
All I would say is the Mosaic Sin has a little bit of a "be careful what you wish for" history to it, because originally when they first unveiled the runeword it was to be 25% chance per claw not to consume charges and the players were up in arms to get them to 50% each claw, which they listened of course. But that will likely be forgotten
but 25% does not make sense. it does not achieve anything. It's more like some times you might get less chores of building charges. It's irrelevant. It's a concept that seems to work in like on/off fashion compared to all the % in between.
What about instead of the whole % chance of not using a charge, that instead when you attack or use a skill a random 1-2 charges is applied for the skills you have available or specced into? Or something along these lines, as it would also match the essence of mosaic building up a plethora of charges that look pretty. It would also get rid of the whole having to pre stack charges everytime u do something outside of town
They should change it so you won't loose stacks on ONE strike. So you have to choose which damage type you want to play around. You can still switch in between if you encounter another damage resist type mob, you just have to stack it up again. So a cow run could be pure lightning and your stacks won't fall off, and when you encounter Cow King you can switch to another damage type of your choosing.
What if you limit how many types of charges you can have at the same time? I think that would make it a bit interesting to plan out which charges you would want to have before going in.
Fixed an issue where Assassin's Blade Fury skill would stop channeling when the monster initially targeted died. Fixed an issue where Assassin's Dragon Tail would inconsistently consume charges. That's patch notes 2.7.4, I don't know if this fixed it though
i see maybe 3 solutions. add to all claws. add a low/mid runeword that adds it. or add a skill on the tree that raises a 5% per point to max out 100% at 20 points. ideally the best solution would be to add to all claws. another nice qol feature would be a % to use a random available martial charging skill. same thing could be either on all claws, a runeword stat, or a passive skill in tree. that way you have one to use one skill to stack all available charges then one other skill to trigger them. kind of like a builder/spender system.
The elephant in the room regarding mosaicsin is dragon talon. The interaction between not expending charges and throwing 6 or 7 kicks together is what makes it extremely powerful. Try playing with dragon tail or dragon flight, it changes a lot. I think that the ability to not spend charges should be transferred to the skills (claw mastery for example) but in addition to that, dragon talon should be modified.
It’s only ridiculous that martial arts isn’t viable without a runeword. It should just be on a timer, when you charge up u keep that charge (10 mins ? Some of us are patient and not figity) , and mosaic should just let you stack multiple charges like combining all ur martial prowess into one. But all claws having a charge keeper would add love to all unique and runeword claws …. That be cool
I left Diablo 2 about 5 years after LOD. I came back one year ago and only played a little bit. Didn’t know about Mosaic or Terror zones. TZ is amazing! I can find crappy Hell esk gear with ease on P8 TZ nightmare runs. I am trying to save up just basic gear to pull off mosaic. Like Treachery and Shako budget type build. I understand the hard part is going to be finding 2 Gul runes but I’m up for the challenge! I do t expect to be able to do P8 Hell runs but if I could just beat Hell so I can do Hell Cows. I’ll be pumped! Love your content but please don’t convince devs to nerf this! Last time I played LOD the MA Assassin was used only as a joke for PVP
edit; not to mention, i dont see having strong stuff as an issue. it's when you feel like, to be optimal, you have to play one of like three builds. why not, instead of focusing on nerfing the strong stuff, we buff some of the less popular builds? i understand this leads to power creep, but i think it's a better attitude personally. Talking about nerfing the percentage to keep charges, i agree that it would be boring if you cant reliably keep the charges. what about "your charges are kept for 2-3 finishing moves instead of one" kind of thing? also, it would be cool if there was some variety in the build. say parts of nat set have % not to consume, one of the unique claws has a bit. i would rather that martial arts assassin can get that mod without mosaic necessarily. it would make more variety. then maybe you can start nerfing the skills. another thought along same lines, what if % chance to not consume was on a skill, say on the charge up skill itself, or one or two ofthe finisher moves, claw mastery, something like that. if we just give the mod to MA assassin, then nerfing the skills makes a bit of sense. in terms of fun, pandoras box is open, do whatever you have to do, nerf this that, but let us keep the charges one way or another
The same way Sorceress choose an element type to be the strongest they can be, or go hybrid at the cost of some dps, Assassins should build the same way. Maybe limit types of charges to 3, that way lot of new variants of martial arts Assassins would emerge. For example Phoenix Strike (2carges for lightning) + Tiger Strike for physical dmg + Cobra Strike for leech. Everyone would choose their favourite skills and build around them, maybe adding facets and stuff to their builds to boost up one particular element. I think charges shouldn't fall off, but you still need to have a way to reset them in case you want to.
Just change it so that the charges drop after 15 seconds like normal, even after your finishing move. Won't effect normal MA users. Or make or so you can't stack charges from different MAs.
Just to throw additional idea - put a "- finishing moves damage" on mosaic let's say 20-40 per mosaic or whatever feels nice as numbers. So using mosaic is reducing your damage but allows the spam charge thing. Maybe additionally increase the finishing moves damage even more. So you end up having a clunky hard hitting martial arts assassin and the low hit damage frame killer mosaic version. So mosaic enables the "OP" part - let's put a negative mod so it does not make it OP but it's more like a nice quality of life version with comparable or even lower damage. (if we keep 20-40% reduction on each mosaic this is like 40-80% less damage for a pair, which could be overkill but I'm not sure how numbers end up being with the 18 charges. The QoL to hit with all elements is quite nice) As the proposed versions by you mr. Laama essentially kill the "old" concept of building charges for 1 mega hit. And it also channels the martial arts assassin into a single playstyle of retaining charges and killing your frames.
i have never played a kick-sin and with what you just talked about it makes me want to play one the way you talked about making the Assassin build for the kick-sin but seeing as how i dont have any good runes i cant build crap lol
imo, if they had to make a change on that, its a bit like you suggested to cap the number of charges you can have to 6 so it limits your damage output vs utility. on top of that, make that claw mastery points affects the chances to refund the charges so mosaic isnt a must have for martial arts. now since those two things are fixed, they can make it so mosaic increases the charge cap by a variable amount of 1-2 instead of refunding them.
I always thought the kick should only release 1 (randomized) of the charges you have built up. So you risk not getting the proc you want, if you charge more and more. Would still need to include some of the other changes, too, but I think it's a start at reducing the OP nature.
I agree with most of what you said.However, I don't like the idea of micromanaging my charges or nerfing the fun overpower aspect of the combined skills.That's a fantasy mechanic of this class.
% chance to not burn charges needs to be linked to hard points in the Kicking Skills.. Not sure why this isn't apparent to everyone, should already be in game.. Being able to just use 1 Mosaic to cap off the already inherent skill is what all gear does.
there is an easy solution and it is that the mosaic will not consume charges but damage output will be reduced across all charges by (insert fair percent here)
Relate the charges to Summoning.. argument is invalid. How long did it take to get iron Golem to follow thru game? I haven't personally used mosaic yet.. but if that annoys you, you've prolly played it past enjoyment. Could add 2 skills (or change 2 skills) (2 free spots at bottom, like element mastery on sorc). Rather than tweaking items. One skill adds to % Chance To keep charges and the other does the timer delay. --- Or, like the "throw" icon, add a skill that pauses the timer / activates it (relateable to wearbear/wearwolf "state" change (might as well throw a golden aura too so its identifyable). Can't use charges unless it's activated.. perhaps for x amount of time, then all charges get removed etc.. (based on skill or w/e) starts as unlimited for 30s, then goes up to 3 mins (or equivalent to battle orders time etc..). Once timer is done, you have to build them up again. If your worried about damage, if unlimited charges activated, skills capped @ (as example) level 5 of skill so then they stay normal for everything else and when your unlimited charge spamming it's capped, not effecting everything else. Million way to fix it.. but theres a lot more important things that should be added / fixed.
3:30 On-wards out of context "The issue is this... basic idea... one-time blast... kind of suck... spend all the time generating all of these charges and then you go in and you go and just all explode off... You're spending 95% of your day just charging up... only get to finish 5% of the time." I feel your pain @MrLlamaSC
Another possible rework is claw mastery gives 4% chance to not lose charge when using finishing move is used. 4% per level. Maybe even make it a off skill synergy based increase.
There is a much simpler fix: move this mechanic from the runeword to Claw Mastery, eg. 2.5% per level. This way you need to max out Claw Mastery (and have high +skills and skillers) to reach the 100% mark and this automatically nerfs everything else because you had to already invest 20 points and "waste" skillers for + Shadow Disciplines.
They should change it to be 100% on one claw and give you more charges per hit. Then change it so it doesn't refresh the charges at all. Building charges is the core concept of finishing moves.
What about "-1 charges consumed on finisher" instead of "50% chance to consume no charges?" Have finishers consume all charges at base, have Mosaic (and possibly skills, base claws) reduce charges consumed from 3->2->1->0 for each additional source of "reduced charges consumed." Maybe make dual claw provide -1 intrinsic reduction to charges consumed. Also scales with multihit finishers while having partial Mosaic: with "-1 charges consumed" dragon talon would hit for level 3+2+1 and then level 1 and then nothing on the remaining kicks. With "-2 charges consumed" the first three kicks would do level 3+2+1, then level 2+1, then the level 1 charge-up bonus. "-3 charges consumed" would work the same as it does at present, perhaps: every finisher at once, forever.
DMG is also insane, the builds fun though. Add an affix to the runeword deal x%less elemental dmg per charge and charges have no duration so it’s permanent.
my main problem with the build was that the brightness is so high in the middle of the screen that after a few hours of playing it gives you a headache also on a new highend PC, the game crashed several times until I turned on low fx
i seldom click on your vids, mostly to find a good strat to start a new char, but when i saw you play this char it is super cool, i think i might get back to d2r just to gear her up and blast everything! thanks for the advertisment! thats what i like in aRPG crazy OP stuff
I wish charges did the effect when you gained them as well. And then you used a finisher to blast them off at once. I wish finishers modified the charges in some way as well.
I actually want them to increase the duration of the charges to 30 seconds because its annoying to recharge them and a charge indicator of which charges are at what levels, this is a pvm build and is a lot of fun to play
You said it yourself charging your skills isn't worth it for MA. My solution is this, have charging release their current level of damage like when you use a finishing skill, but you keep the charges. Finishing skills release all charges like currently. Mosaic only let you keep your charges, they don't expire anymore. That means you charge up skills and use it to kill white monsters, then use finishing on special monsters or you just rotate your skills. That also makes dragon talon not the best finisher.
Offline and nonladder aren't the same. Nonladder is online which you can't make mosaic and any runeword that came after it. They still haven't changed it since what? S4?
I mean Mosaic is super fun, but it has it's weaknesses. It is super annoying to drop your charges... You have to mind blast sometimes (CS runs etc) Yes it is OP, but so is hammerdin/tesladin etc, Nova sorc etc... And those have been OP for 20 years. Leave it alone and have fun.
You are making a lot of assumptions that the Janitor will know how to actually program and fix the game
does blizz even have a janitor anymore? i thought they kicked them out too.
@@Matti_Mattsen they can't fire him, he has the keys to the breast milk closet.
It’ll be like the movie Good Will Hunting
@@phibu7517 what?
@@nicolasbascunan4013Blizzard had people stealing breast milk in the office, it came out in the lawsuit.
TLDR: she needs magic damage added to her kit
definitely
t4t
This mosaic assa reminds me to those oldschool open bnet characters made in hero editor and built for non-legit pvps.. :D
thats why i like it lol
wtf since when does this guy look like pete davidson
That is not a good way to look
Super Rude. Something bad is going to happen to you in the name of
I like the part where Llama still thinks they'll update D2... 💔
Apparently someone in dev has said they will be doing a balance update in the near future. Cooley made a video about it, too.
@@ultraviolet0 Late to the party, but my guess is MS is going to give it a once over before they release it on Gamepass.
50k fireball / mosaic / lightin fury / hammerdin.... but the problem is GUIDED ARROW PIERCING...... bring back our beloved piercing guided arrow!!
BRING IT BACK!!!
Burza bow doesn't work?
@@NinjaSushi2 from like 1.10 pierce doesn't work with GA. Even on Buriza
Exactly, who cares about assassins killing pve stuff fast, it's still kinda clunky to play.
Mosaic is the demonstration they cannot design something tasteful. It has D3 philosophy in it, an item that dictates the playstyle too heavily, invalidating everything else and overshadowing the skill tree choices. I hate it.
at least, when they did it, they had the idea of making undertuned/dead build viable.
Very well said, the epitome of a D3 item
This is an absolute end game build that doesn't really influence ANYTHING tho. By the time you have gotten this build BY YOURSELF... You would have mindlessly been farming for days trying to collect all the pieces to this puzzle. Unless you trade for the items.
It's a build that literally serves no real purpose other then pizzazz at the end of it all. As you will have already done everything by the time you manage to collect the runes and equipment to make it.
So whats the issue? an end game OP build that requires practically days and days of farming...
When you can get these kind of results far sooner just playing a paladin nowadays for the most part.
Confusing to hate on something that basically has no use outside "this is kinda awesome" after you have farmed it up for days :|
@@Am4t3r4suas a SSF I’ve been playing D2R for 3 years and mosaic is still my only character that can farm hell baal. Without it I’d have 0 tokens and would have bricked all my characters.
I’m probably in the minority but I don’t understand why people think it’s too good.
*cough* Enigma *cough*
“Only get to finish 5% of the time” man I feel that
I played MA sin without mosaic before mosaic existed. The only fix it needed is generating and spending charges regardless if attack connected, then you could combo your moves very consistently. The charge non-consume is bad and needs to go completely. Instead they could add some good stuff to the charge-up attacks so they don't feel boring and useless
I said the same thing. Make the charge up attacks do something and give a charge. Then have mosaic grant two charges at once. So if you have double mosaic you are granted full charges with one attack. This way you can use just one mosaic if you want a certain charge everytime.
Or they could change Mosaic to an upside-downside effect, e.g., charges not consumed anymore, but effects of charged skills reduced by 80%.
I would prefer they fix melee over Mosaic.
Nah they already fixed MA. Better melee stay the way it is instead of 1 maul hit exploding all screen
@Ubeogesh Chance to cleave on attack with 2h weapons, 100% cleave on berserk, no cleave on concentrate. In my head, that'd work.
The game is good and fair. Let’s not hope they “fix” anything because it will end up botched completely.
Ww barb
Melee builds are some of the most powerful builds in the game at full gear. If you mean they fix melee in the early/mid game, that's a different story.
I really like the design philosophy behind mosaic: Most of the game your character struggles with a built-in limitation (building and then expending martial arts charges in this case), and then once you grind up end game items you can make a new build that removes the limitation. This is what makes key items in diablo so rewarding to find: build an isight polearm for your merc, and suddenly you don't need to worry nearly as much about mana consumption and can lean into spamming your high cost skills. Build enigma, now you can teleport. Even sunder charms-- Find a good one, and now you don't have to worry as much about monster immunities. You get this super rewarding feeling of unlocking a new level of play.
I like mosaic assassins a lot and I would like to see every class get an end game build that is similar: something that can blow through p8 chaos at virtually the same speed you can clear den of evil. BUT I agree that the mosaic sin is a little too powerful for the cost. The closest analog is a nova sorc, which is what, 5x more expensive to build? And still doesn't clear as fast (though is more convenient to play since you don't need to build/maintain charges).
My opinion is after 20 years of being crappy, the Martial Arts assassin gets equal time to be overpowered.
Seems fair tbh
That and... MA is the best for a lot of content. But it's not the best for all content. My blizz sorc is still going to clear Stony faster. Your charges dissipate before Diablo spawns, so a paladin is still better for CS. Assassins can't hork, so a zerker is better for Trav. I have a double Mosaic sin on my single player, but I don't use it all the time. It's just one tool in the box.
@@michaeltorrisi7289mind blast and you can keep charges for Diablo. No one clears faster stone tombs than Javazon and mosaic dude.
Blizz cannot compare.
As a MA sin enjoyer since the original LoD, I wholeheartedly agree.
The charge up skill itself should perform an ability, not just charge, then the finisher unleashes a harder hitting move with the charge. Problem solved. No mosaic even required for martial arts to have a cool playstyle then. Then take away the mosaic ability of not consuming charges and make it so that one hit of a charge up skill gives you 2 charges at once. This way two mosaic will fully charge with one hit, but one mosaic will still be decent.
this is probably closer to the right answer than anything else i've read, it solves the problem of the charge up abilities not really doing until you release your finisher
as you say, it allows mosaic and finishers to have different functionalities that add an extra dimension to the build, rather than being the primary moving part of the build
@@kahahabahaha yea. This is absolutely how to fix it. And it is not a difficult change either.
Mosaic was cool when it came out because the implication was they were trying new things, adding a bit of spice etc. No one realized they were going to abandon the game entirely
I did. It's why i said the original hustle weapon runeword was perfect to fix most of the problems melee had. It allowed 2h weapons to hit reasonable breakpoints. Llama argued it was "too op" and nerfed it into a merc weapon because it was going to be "too optimal and too clunky to swap and proc."
Except the irony today is that some melee builds, to get decent ias breakpoints, use a metamorphosis (druid runeword!) by swapping to a beast, transform into a werebear, wack an enemy to get DR and skill ias from the metamorph proc, then swap and transform out of werebear.
The metamorph proc lasts about as long as the old burst of speed hustle proc... except you get DR over movement speed. But you also need cham and ber runes...
Thanks llama.
Fix: add mosaic all damage reduced to 1/20, every different charge buff on you reduces your charge releated damage to half. So you want to build charges you need.
To start:
1. Dragon talon should only release effects on first kick
2. Decrease maximum to 2 active MA's at once
3. Increase to 100% chance to not consume charges on Mosaic
4. Remove charge expire timer
I'd like to keep them in S-tier, but encourage diversity in how they can be built
I feel like just making the holding of charges a baseline of the class, but rebalanced would be better.
Having a mechanic that is core of making a build viable, part of an item runeword is stupendous design.
there is no diversity by doing this. youre just meta shifting. maximum to 2 charge up skills means everyone uses claws of thunder and phoenix, which is 95% of hte damage and what people already use anyway.. if anything youre removing diversity by preventing people from being able to mix and match FoF/cobra/tiger. on top of that, youre making dragon talon useless for martial arts builds that use charge ups, even if they don't use mosaic. skills shouldn't be balanced around the existence of one item, that's bad design.
they need to take the mechanic off of mosaic, make it default to all chargeups, and rebalance the chargeup skills around the mechanic being constant. or change the mechanic entirely.
I'd say:
Ad.2. instead of "Decream maximum to 2 active MA'a at once" -> make a global limit of 6/7 stacks from MA, that can be active...
Ad.4. Just lift it up from 15s, to something more longlasting... 3-4 minutes maybe ? (that basicaly makes it almost permament)
@@sytrostormlord3275 or you can decrease the damage by then number of charges
This is a much better idea. I like Llama, but his game design thoughts lose me frequently.
The solution is easy for me, first add affix where Never lose the charges no límited to 15 seconds and put the cooldown in the final attack charge, example now in the game in 1 second you make 6 kicks so you do 6x5 =30 final attacks charges per second, put a cooldown to cannot repeat the same charge attack in .5 second so even you have 6 kicks only do 2 final attack per second i mean 2x5= 10 final attacks per second
I think a lot of these changes sound really good. Especially the idea of not consuming charges by default so you could level with this build. Then updating Mosaic into charges don't expire. Whatever balance changes are needed afterwards could be done but overall I would still like it to be one of if not the strongest build. After so many years of hammerdin, any sorceress, and javazon being the meta, it's nice to log into D2 after decades of playing and have a new top dog.
Change from "Mal-Gul-Amn" to "Mal-Ohm-Zod" thus it won't be as attainable. Such a gg item shouldn't be easier to make than say Kingslayer (Mal-Um-Gul-Fal).
I never understood why people push for nerfs in PvE centric video games... Just let us have our fun or bring the other classes in line with the "broken" ones.
I never could grasp that either. It’s like people complain about power fantasy these days. Especially when players like Llama only represent the few percent that are pro compared to everyone else…Especially when runes have always been a pain to grind. I find myself playing more indie games these days
Especially from a guy that spends 99% of his time in SP. That's what you get from a communist though.
This makes absolutely no sense. If you bring the other classes in line with the broken ones, it accomplishes the same thing as nerfing the broken on to be on par with the other classes. It's just FAR less work than your suggestion.
The point of the charges is that they give you a lot of damage over a short period of time (burst dam age), if they would have 50% on all weapons or lose just one charge at a time, there will little to no drawbacks for this class, making it even more op.
So basically you’re using like 10 skills at once in 1 blow? Who thought this would be a good idea, this would be like if the sorceress casted, fireball, blizzard, blizzard orb, fire wall, chain lightning and all, all at the same time…
D3 designers would think this is good design.
I personally like the idea of not having to spend time charging up for one cool attack... I dont play MA assassin but I feel like this gives the people who do, have a fun spammable skill. Kinda like 99% of the other D2R classes...
There aren’t gonna be anymore changes. This is the final state of D2. We’re stuck with this broken eyesore of a build dominating the game forever. And y’all thought everyone playing a hammerdin was bad 😂
Nobody actually plays with people in diablo 2 outside of like... rushing and baal runs. You're stuck with nothing. Just pretend the item doesn't exist and it won't impact you basically at all.
I've been hearing this for the last half-dozen updates. We'll see.
They announced that they’ll be doing a balance update soon. Cooley made a video on it as well.
Come on over to project d2 boys
The most obvious fix is to make it not release all your charges for every single kick in DTalon, that is the real issue that makes it insane.
Proc on first kick only is incredibly reasonable and still strong. People might use Dragon Tail instead just to get more procs, or have to sacrifice skill points in Talon to minimize extra kicks.
The character’s finisher charges remind me of DoTA’s hero, Invoker, who invokes three elements in permutations that give him different abilities and stats. I like the idea of limiting the charges to two or three at once, so you’ll need to min/max within the limits.
Been enjoying your content! Thanks for all the information 🙏🏻
does it work better doing annihilus and torch runs as well ubers ??? Can you show a ubers run or something with it ??
yes, IIRC mosaic assassin holds the world record for ubers. only after having been released a few patches, i think this is clear indication it's the strongest build in the game.
you should be able to do anything in the game with it. it even comes with a psuedo teleport
Project diablo 2 balanced the assassin martial art perfectly.
The willing ignorance of the best way to play D2 in insane.
I think they’re the right price because that’s when you start going into the build as an assassin and you’re always gonna want to make it better claws or yeah, with more mods on them or better elemental damage, so I think the cost is reasonable because there’s always a better claw base waiting another claw and the build is very successful. If it’s number one that’s not for everyone but no why alienate people who enjoy the build from the game?
1. You can only have 3x charges of anything at a time. Example of combo charge. Tiger strike level 1, thunder claw level 2, Phoenix strike level 3x or another example, tiger strike level 1, tiger strike level 2, tiger strike level 3. Casting a 4th charge ability overwrites the last charge.
Instead of giving every claw mini mosaic charge retention, I prefer specific charge generation (no possible way of 100% generation) on non mosaic and limit maximum active charge especially on dual mosaic.
Mosaic may as a runeword make more sense to be restricted to not work with kicks, but I do like the idea of just baking the bonus into claws as I feel it would allow for more niche builds. This also opens up options around how to implement Mosaic and implications it would have
I really want to see a runeword that can be used in claws that is both decent while also granting access to ethereal weapons, it feels like a missing piece to the puzzle in general, this would be nice to see on daggers as well as maybe maces, just allowing more variety into the game ~ giving assassins really anything to uniquely compete against grief would be nice too
As for the charge stacking you mentioned:
Three stacks max with no decay, oldest stack gets deleted when using a new one?
PD2(s6 or s7) figured ma sin out. Some balancing with that concept and it will be pretty neat, the only problem is the finishers become not finishers i guess but kicksin still exists so no waste there. The builder is also the finisher and it applies the individual charges on each step and releases them after the last charge, rinse repeat. You are not frustrated by having a slightly longer loading screen and losing all your charges, less clunk more bonk. Opens up all the choices you can use fist of fire for bosses other stuff for immunity. Obviously remove the charge not consuming thing and keep the elemental damage on mosaics and then it will still be really good for elemental damage assassins. Any form of stacking multiple charges will result in a mess or clunk. Essay over and out!
I said a long time ago before mosaic even got announced that they should make change to not consume a charge part of the material skill tree.
Every level in any martial skill gives a 2% chance to not consume any charges on any skill.
You are going to be invested in metal skills for a martial build anyway. This gives the l martial arts assassin a use while leveling and gearing.
Then nerf the skills down to a reasonable damage or limit charge ups to 6 total charges of any mix of skills. This will bring the damage back down to something competitive and force players to pick and choose their skills rather than just charging up everything.
Then make the charges last forever until you discharge them. Like an iron golem, they travel with you from game to game and act to act until you get rid of them on purpose.
The only problem this would leave is how to discharge them if you have 100% chance to not use a charge on your skills .this would mean you have to make it so the charges cycle through,as in if you have 3 charges of a certain skill and you cast it again, you reset that skill to zero charges.
Obviously this is just a rough draft of a way to set up martial, and I put a lot more thought and details into it back before mosaic was released, but I feel like building chance to not use a charge directly into the martial tree is the only way to do it. This will give players the opportunity to use different weapons and a shield if they would like, or still run 1 mosaic if they want to or if they only want to level 1 or 2 charge up skills and need the extra % to not consume a charge.
Change "Claw Mastery" to be useful, remove the attack Rating, Damage increase and Crit strike increases to a Base Point increase of 5% of the Mosaic effect as well as a timer increase. i.e. at base point 20 you will have 100% chance of not losing a charge. (this will limit the amount of skill points available to the other skill slots). Then - as you say, only release the charge you have - either the first, second or third depending on which charge you have active. Charge 1 will be single target damage, two will be multiple target, three will be increase area of effect. Change the effect of the 3rd phoenix cold effect to only freeze without dealing damage etc...
The mosaic runeword could then only be about reducing monster elemental resistance and increase elemental skill damage.
I don't think they should changes. I'd prefer they just make more broken builds.
instead of nerfing things, why not buff right? And its not like you are forced to play it, there are plenty of other builds that you can play, unless you're all about efficiency and minmaxing, which nothing should be built around someone like that anyways
I'd prefer this solution:
While a charge up skill is equipped on the left click, have finishers on the right click automatically charge up the equipped charge up skill. Make it so that it cycles through each charge's effect as the finisher hits.
This will remove the annoyance of having to spend time charging up.
You can also make it so that if you have two charge up skills equiped (one on left click and one on right click), both charge ups cycle through and release each of the charges effects on hit. That way you can use two at the same time.
I like all of llamas suggested changes as well.
To recapitulate some of Llama's suggestions, as well as add some of my own:
1) 5% chance to not consume charges on each individual charge-up skill, for the maximum of 100% at 20 skill points.
2) Regarding the skills with simultaneous triple effects, only the 3-charge effect should be released on attack, rather than 1-, 2- and 3-charge effects all at once.
3) No more than two charged-up skills may be active at once, so Lightning + Freeze, or Physical + Life/Mana Leech, or Fire + whatever else. This way, the played would be 'forced' to adapt to monster type, density and immunities on the fly, potentially rendering gameplay more engaging (or annoying; a matter of perspective, really).
4) With the latter version, Mosaic could have the unique mechanic of extending the maximum number of active charged-up skills by 1, for example. Or it could just provide decent bonuses to elemental damage as it already does, perhaps at a higher percentage.
5) As far as some of the more unhinged ideas go, the power of the released charge-up attack could depend on the finishing move releasing it. Basically, the Dragon Talon hits multiple times in quick succession but the charges released that way only inflict 1/10 of added damage/effect percentage (the number is arbitrary), Dragon Flight's release does 1/3, Dragon Claw's release does full damage, etc. This might make finishing moves besides Dragon Talon and Dragon Flight less irrelevant, as well as tone down the damage output.
Mosaic's issues ultimately stem from the fundamental flaws in Assassin's Martial Arts' design, which is interesting and unique in the sense of framing gameplay into a combo attack pattern, but is simply not awfully viable or comfortable to execute time and time again, as such frame is pretty much a Procrustean bed to the player. Mosaic's most crucial component is not to blame really, so integrating it into Martial Arts, with some accompanying adjustments, should be the correct choice.
...or would be, in a world where the devs keep on further ironing out the game's longstanding issues, since I've become convinced somewhat recently that no major changes - such as Mosaic's very introduction - will take place in the future.
> framing gameplay into a combo attack pattern
I think a big shortcoming in this design is that it's an _unreliable_ combo attack pattern: you can fail to charge up (or discharge) if your attacks don't connect.
Someone else made what I think is the fundamentally right suggestion: make the acquisition and discharge of charges unconditional. Your physical damage (and other weapon effect) may whiff but you always get the charge; I guess if a discharge of Tiger/Cobra whiffs you get zero benefit.
The big challenge with MA skills today is that the specific attack/effect you unleash with a discharge depends on how many charges of each kind you have, which depends on how many times you've used the build-up, modified by how many times you've missed. Therefore, to unleash a specific combination of charges you must carefully monitor whether you build up the charge, then rapidly react by switching to a different attack to not get too many charges, or waste time getting excess charges, or perform build-ups that do nothing (instead of finishing moves).
This means MA sins need to be piloted with insanely quick reaction times and constant monitoring, which is very draining.
If you can release phoenix lightning after exactly 3 attacks (rather 3 + #misses), that makes the whole thing much easier to predict which in turn allows you to plan on a ~2s by 2s basis which skill to use next, rather than doing so on a frame-by-frame basis. I believe having a long enough planning horizon _would_ make combo attacks work.
Imagine if your sorc's right-button attack random jumped around within its skill tree 2.5 times per second, and you had to right click when the right skill was selected. This would be hell to play. That's the design mistake of MA sins, and predictable effect selection would fix a lot of it.
What's then left to adjust, if anything, is the power level of the MA skills. I don't mind varying power levels across builds so long as I'm not stuck with a total clunker (or I know what I get myself into), so maybe not? Would it break Phoenix Strike if the elemental damage mostly ignored the target's defense? It doesn't seem to break Hydra or Frozen Orb or whatever, so maybe not?
The worst thing Mosaic could be is a fix for the MA sins' problems-then it becomes a mandatory rune word which excludes other items if you have it and makes MA sins remain bad for those who don't.
Someone suggested to make Mosaic preserve its "taste the rainbow" effect but make the charges deal significantly reduced damage/effects. Then you still get the fun everything-all-at-once effect but without soloing /players over 9000. Seems fine to me.
Or Blizzard could delete Mosaic and refund the runes, i.e.make the weapon unequipped and unequippable, and if you ever have it in your inventory with enough free slots the runes "fall out" of the weapon, un-rune-wording itself. But that would admit a mistake.
I think moving the mosaic effect to claws or skills would be a good move. Would also allow for a little more build diversity - to allow us to use other claws (bartucs, firelizards etc) or runewords
I would like to be able to have the effect of dual mosaic claws but use a shield too
A simple question did you not think about this once you and every other streamer recommended the buffs to go up from 25%>50%? :D It was clear as day that it was going to be way too op but you guys didnt mind back then.
People dont even play the build(the only ones that suffer i guess are the players who gun for ladder first 99 cause the build is too good in that aspect once you start farming P8 TZs).
Other than that last two ladders i havent seen many sins actually play it beside the one that hit 99 and few in baal games but they were pretty rare on EU atleast.
Instead of nerfing it i suppose you can just change the runes of the runeword and just make it pricier.Because just nerfing it to 25% will kill the MA build again and with no people to work on the game to update/change the MA tree(reffering to recommendations like Warren's Mosaic post+ talking about MA changes in general) will be kinda pointless.
Leave the gul,mal and add a Sur or if you want it to be even more rare go Ber/Jah.
Lol dude you're absolutely right! I also remember that as well!
This is my argument. Yea the build is "OP"... but who actually plays it? Yea it's strong, but you STILL don't see it utilized that often in comparison to how simple and safe traps are still.
It's an end game "for fun" build mostly that you can put together after you been farming for god knows how long to get lucky with the rune drops. I figure you earned it after all the crazy low drop rates associated with diablo 2 anyway.
You think making it pricier will stop D2JSP?
1 week in and every JSP user will have double mosaic anyways.
@@Am4t3r4suI don’t think you play D2 much or at all.
@@Am4t3r4su are u kidding? mosaicsins are everywhere, and being able to only play it in the endgame is one of the problems with mosaic. MA sin sucks. mosaic only helped MA sin get power in endgame. what about the rest of the game?
One step in the right direction would be to allow you to build a maximum of 2 types of charges at all times and take it from there with the ballance.
Cheers!
I think they should change the increase by 8-15% on cold, lightning, and fire damage to decrease instead and also remove the attack speed bonus. The claws just have too much going on with how good 100% chance finishing moves to not be consumed is. That bonus to the charges lasting forever should be the focus of the rune word with some negative damage to offset it, and the removal of the attack speed will help bring down how OP it is as well and allow the player to actually see the combat.
What about charge up skills after fully charge, expend those charges without losing the charge for that skill only. Finishing moves expend all charges. This means charge up skills still have a use rather than charge them once and forget about them. Then finishing moves can have a larger burst. Then adjust the runeword to trigger all charges when using a charge up skill with a huge burst damage boost if used with a finisher that expends charges
~11mins. that exactly depicts why i always avoid kicksin. Mosaic RW only pushed me to try it and it was fun, but for non sin lover :D
I don't want to sound disrespectful, but weren't you the one who proposed that Mosaic have a 50% chance instead of the original 25% that Blizzard presented?
25% breaks it's usefulness. He goes over that.
Yea he was. He also was the one that proposed to ruin the weapon version of Hustle which is only good as a merc weapon now. I remember the argument was, "this isn't the way to help melee, they should do something else next patch."
Look where we are over a year later now. Dead game.
@@jprec5174 I've heard 'dead game' in multiple games I play. Never has it been true. If it were, you wouldn't bother saying it because there would be no one to listen.
There's currently 20k+ players in HCL, 200k+ SCL, and then more in NL. If you don't want to play, don't. We'll have fun without you.
These content creators don't really know how to make the game better but only whines on what they want and when the result is bad they're gonna make a content about it. It's like a loop of BS for monetization scheme. D2 was great but it got old. Glad Blizzard didn't made a huge change on the game because it's perfect as it is.
@@cinecastmedia Not all people making d2 videos are like that, this one here is a fine af exemple of one that is like that, he should clearly stick with just making guides and having fun etc etc.
Knowing the direction the game is supposed to go is not for everyone at all and is good that viewers know that so they can ignore people saying crap and make that diference when they need to.
I agree on almost everything you say. Want to add that cobra strike, maybe they could make it so hard points make it better, and +skills only gives equal to 1 hard points for every 10 +skills.
I’m not sure if you thought of this but this might be a good compromise. You can stack charges the same but you do consume charges when you hit an enemy… you consume one type of charge until you have one type of charge left…. And the consumed charges will be at random leaving you with only one type of charge. You might be left with fire charges against andariel and be king or be left with tiger strike against physical immune boss pack and be sol…. Would nerf the build a bit without losing too much and bringing in an element of chance into even using it.
Grateful for your perspective. Agree with cobra strike and claws of ice changes.
I suspect your focus is exclusively on pvm and that's fine.
Adding 'charges never falls off when donning mosaic' but still having it possess the same power would make mosaic MA assassins (mmaas) so much more cancerous for pvp. This would mean that mmaas would no longer need their alt account sitting in town to maintain their charges while they bm other players. They would just be free dart around the whole moor instead of just hanging around at the encampment entrance, refilling charges. Still a horribly bm build, but bound by available monsters or alt accounts in the Moor.
Tyreal's might updated w +naught skill teleport and absorbs all elemental damage +40%, anyone?
Man the MosaicSin reminds me of the Summonmancer because if with him if you summoned all of the types of minions that he gets access to you could lag the game very badly. I agree with you about putting 100% chance of MA skills using up 0 charges on the claws themesleves because you can use only 1 claw and have the 2nd hand free for a shield or another claw. I also agree with your 2nd option of having the the chance of not consuming charges on the skills as well because it will make the MAsin similar to a throw barb. Another thing that they can do is increase the expiration timer of the charges like 0.5 seconds per every other level per MA skill or something so it doesn't even become more OP. Yeah it is a must that they move the don't consume charges thing to either MA skills or the Claws themselves because on how expensive dual mosaics are in terms of runes. I would love to run a MAsin that uses a Plague runeword for the Lower res proc which will help the dmg of your elemental attacks.
-Kick only activates finisher ONCE.
-Set charge timer to 1 minute.
Glad your not a dev
I think the only thing wrong is the overdependance on Mosaic to make martial art viable.
From the moment I saw it I felt like they should take some of the chance to not spend charges from the runeword and add it to the finisher skills themselves.
The charge duration refresh should also be entirely baseline.
This means with mosaic you could still have the current result, but you are good enough without it that you can explore more options.
All I would say is the Mosaic Sin has a little bit of a "be careful what you wish for" history to it, because originally when they first unveiled the runeword it was to be 25% chance per claw not to consume charges and the players were up in arms to get them to 50% each claw, which they listened of course. But that will likely be forgotten
but 25% does not make sense. it does not achieve anything. It's more like some times you might get less chores of building charges. It's irrelevant. It's a concept that seems to work in like on/off fashion compared to all the % in between.
What about instead of the whole % chance of not using a charge, that instead when you attack or use a skill a random 1-2 charges is applied for the skills you have available or specced into? Or something along these lines, as it would also match the essence of mosaic building up a plethora of charges that look pretty. It would also get rid of the whole having to pre stack charges everytime u do something outside of town
They should change it so you won't loose stacks on ONE strike. So you have to choose which damage type you want to play around. You can still switch in between if you encounter another damage resist type mob, you just have to stack it up again. So a cow run could be pure lightning and your stacks won't fall off, and when you encounter Cow King you can switch to another damage type of your choosing.
What if you limit how many types of charges you can have at the same time? I think that would make it a bit interesting to plan out which charges you would want to have before going in.
Does it still work?
Fixed an issue where Assassin's Blade Fury skill would stop channeling when the monster initially targeted died.
Fixed an issue where Assassin's Dragon Tail would inconsistently consume charges.
That's patch notes 2.7.4, I don't know if this fixed it though
i see maybe 3 solutions. add to all claws. add a low/mid runeword that adds it. or add a skill on the tree that raises a 5% per point to max out 100% at 20 points. ideally the best solution would be to add to all claws.
another nice qol feature would be a % to use a random available martial charging skill. same thing could be either on all claws, a runeword stat, or a passive skill in tree. that way you have one to use one skill to stack all available charges then one other skill to trigger them. kind of like a builder/spender system.
The elephant in the room regarding mosaicsin is dragon talon. The interaction between not expending charges and throwing 6 or 7 kicks together is what makes it extremely powerful.
Try playing with dragon tail or dragon flight, it changes a lot.
I think that the ability to not spend charges should be transferred to the skills (claw mastery for example) but in addition to that, dragon talon should be modified.
I played lightning traps/dragon tail before the trap buffs. Dragon tail is absolutely powerful in combination with traps.
@@jprec5174 fantastic build of tiger strike, dragon tail and death sentry.
completely agree with you
It’s only ridiculous that martial arts isn’t viable without a runeword. It should just be on a timer, when you charge up u keep that charge (10 mins ? Some of us are patient and not figity) , and mosaic should just let you stack multiple charges like combining all ur martial prowess into one. But all claws having a charge keeper would add love to all unique and runeword claws …. That be cool
I left Diablo 2 about 5 years after LOD.
I came back one year ago and only played a little bit.
Didn’t know about Mosaic or Terror zones.
TZ is amazing! I can find crappy Hell esk gear with ease on P8 TZ nightmare runs.
I am trying to save up just basic gear to pull off mosaic. Like Treachery and Shako budget type build.
I understand the hard part is going to be finding 2 Gul runes but I’m up for the challenge! I do t expect to be able to do P8 Hell runs but if I could just beat Hell so I can do Hell Cows. I’ll be pumped! Love your content but please don’t convince devs to nerf this! Last time I played LOD the MA Assassin was used only as a joke for PVP
edit; not to mention, i dont see having strong stuff as an issue. it's when you feel like, to be optimal, you have to play one of like three builds. why not, instead of focusing on nerfing the strong stuff, we buff some of the less popular builds? i understand this leads to power creep, but i think it's a better attitude personally.
Talking about nerfing the percentage to keep charges, i agree that it would be boring if you cant reliably keep the charges. what about "your charges are kept for 2-3 finishing moves instead of one" kind of thing? also, it would be cool if there was some variety in the build. say parts of nat set have % not to consume, one of the unique claws has a bit. i would rather that martial arts assassin can get that mod without mosaic necessarily. it would make more variety. then maybe you can start nerfing the skills. another thought along same lines, what if % chance to not consume was on a skill, say on the charge up skill itself, or one or two ofthe finisher moves, claw mastery, something like that. if we just give the mod to MA assassin, then nerfing the skills makes a bit of sense.
in terms of fun, pandoras box is open, do whatever you have to do, nerf this that, but let us keep the charges one way or another
The same way Sorceress choose an element type to be the strongest they can be, or go hybrid at the cost of some dps, Assassins should build the same way. Maybe limit types of charges to 3, that way lot of new variants of martial arts Assassins would emerge. For example Phoenix Strike (2carges for lightning) + Tiger Strike for physical dmg + Cobra Strike for leech. Everyone would choose their favourite skills and build around them, maybe adding facets and stuff to their builds to boost up one particular element. I think charges shouldn't fall off, but you still need to have a way to reset them in case you want to.
not letting the charges go with 1 mosaic and having them drop 1 at a time per 15s are great changes. would love to see it
Just change it so that the charges drop after 15 seconds like normal, even after your finishing move.
Won't effect normal MA users.
Or make or so you can't stack charges from different MAs.
Just to throw additional idea - put a "- finishing moves damage" on mosaic let's say 20-40 per mosaic or whatever feels nice as numbers. So using mosaic is reducing your damage but allows the spam charge thing. Maybe additionally increase the finishing moves damage even more. So you end up having a clunky hard hitting martial arts assassin and the low hit damage frame killer mosaic version. So mosaic enables the "OP" part - let's put a negative mod so it does not make it OP but it's more like a nice quality of life version with comparable or even lower damage.
(if we keep 20-40% reduction on each mosaic this is like 40-80% less damage for a pair, which could be overkill but I'm not sure how numbers end up being with the 18 charges. The QoL to hit with all elements is quite nice)
As the proposed versions by you mr. Laama essentially kill the "old" concept of building charges for 1 mega hit. And it also channels the martial arts assassin into a single playstyle of retaining charges and killing your frames.
i have never played a kick-sin and with what you just talked about it makes me want to play one the way you talked about making the Assassin build for the kick-sin but seeing as how i dont have any good runes i cant build crap lol
imo, if they had to make a change on that, its a bit like you suggested to cap the number of charges you can have to 6 so it limits your damage output vs utility. on top of that, make that claw mastery points affects the chances to refund the charges so mosaic isnt a must have for martial arts. now since those two things are fixed, they can make it so mosaic increases the charge cap by a variable amount of 1-2 instead of refunding them.
I always thought the kick should only release 1 (randomized) of the charges you have built up. So you risk not getting the proc you want, if you charge more and more. Would still need to include some of the other changes, too, but I think it's a start at reducing the OP nature.
I agree with most of what you said.However, I don't like the idea of micromanaging my charges or nerfing the fun overpower aspect of the combined skills.That's a fantasy mechanic of this class.
Having a global cool down on finishers executing the orbs, or reducing the amount of orbs, or only allowing two different orb types at a time
% chance to not burn charges needs to be linked to hard points in the Kicking Skills.. Not sure why this isn't apparent to everyone, should already be in game.. Being able to just use 1 Mosaic to cap off the already inherent skill is what all gear does.
i kinda like the urgency with duration of combos, its engaging. But also frustrating
Adding a damage debuff specifically to the mosaic and keeping it at 100% charge stick would work
there is an easy solution and it is that the mosaic will not consume charges but damage output will be reduced across all charges by (insert fair percent here)
Relate the charges to Summoning.. argument is invalid. How long did it take to get iron Golem to follow thru game?
I haven't personally used mosaic yet.. but if that annoys you, you've prolly played it past enjoyment.
Could add 2 skills (or change 2 skills) (2 free spots at bottom, like element mastery on sorc). Rather than tweaking items. One skill adds to % Chance To keep charges and the other does the timer delay.
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Or, like the "throw" icon, add a skill that pauses the timer / activates it (relateable to wearbear/wearwolf "state" change (might as well throw a golden aura too so its identifyable). Can't use charges unless it's activated.. perhaps for x amount of time, then all charges get removed etc.. (based on skill or w/e) starts as unlimited for 30s, then goes up to 3 mins (or equivalent to battle orders time etc..). Once timer is done, you have to build them up again.
If your worried about damage, if unlimited charges activated, skills capped @ (as example) level 5 of skill so then they stay normal for everything else and when your unlimited charge spamming it's capped, not effecting everything else.
Million way to fix it.. but theres a lot more important things that should be added / fixed.
3:30 On-wards out of context "The issue is this... basic idea... one-time blast... kind of suck... spend all the time generating all of these charges and then you go in and you go and just all explode off... You're spending 95% of your day just charging up... only get to finish 5% of the time." I feel your pain @MrLlamaSC
Another possible rework is claw mastery gives 4% chance to not lose charge when using finishing move is used. 4% per level. Maybe even make it a off skill synergy based increase.
So you don't even need mosaic... it would be more op than now...
There is a much simpler fix: move this mechanic from the runeword to Claw Mastery, eg. 2.5% per level. This way you need to max out Claw Mastery (and have high +skills and skillers) to reach the 100% mark and this automatically nerfs everything else because you had to already invest 20 points and "waste" skillers for + Shadow Disciplines.
what mosaic also could is let it last infinitly but have like a 25%-50% chance to proc a random charge
First we give you terror zones, then we give you sunder charms. Then we give you nothing else.
They should change it to be 100% on one claw and give you more charges per hit. Then change it so it doesn't refresh the charges at all. Building charges is the core concept of finishing moves.
What about "-1 charges consumed on finisher" instead of "50% chance to consume no charges?"
Have finishers consume all charges at base, have Mosaic (and possibly skills, base claws) reduce charges consumed from 3->2->1->0 for each additional source of "reduced charges consumed." Maybe make dual claw provide -1 intrinsic reduction to charges consumed. Also scales with multihit finishers while having partial Mosaic: with "-1 charges consumed" dragon talon would hit for level 3+2+1 and then level 1 and then nothing on the remaining kicks. With "-2 charges consumed" the first three kicks would do level 3+2+1, then level 2+1, then the level 1 charge-up bonus. "-3 charges consumed" would work the same as it does at present, perhaps: every finisher at once, forever.
4:03 that look means our minds went at the same place XD
DMG is also insane, the builds fun though. Add an affix to the runeword deal x%less elemental dmg per charge and charges have no duration so it’s permanent.
my main problem with the build was that the brightness is so high in the middle of the screen that after a few hours of playing it gives you a headache
also on a new highend PC, the game crashed several times until I turned on low fx
i think buffing all MA quite a lot but you can only have 1 MA skill charged at a time could be a solution to prevent blasting all over the screen
Thanks for raising the magic damage issue of this char; hope devs listen!
i seldom click on your vids, mostly to find a good strat to start a new char, but when i saw you play this char it is super cool, i think i might get back to d2r just to gear her up and blast everything! thanks for the advertisment! thats what i like in aRPG crazy OP stuff
I wish charges did the effect when you gained them as well. And then you used a finisher to blast them off at once. I wish finishers modified the charges in some way as well.
mosaic's 10-15FD/15LD/15CD must modified to negative debuff to modifiy its overpower like -30 to -20% LD/FD/CD
I actually want them to increase the duration of the charges to 30 seconds because its annoying to recharge them and a charge indicator of which charges are at what levels, this is a pvm build and is a lot of fun to play
Easily prefer to trash the mosaic. But another nerf could be to allow 15sec for ONLY 3 charges. Any more charges will reduce hold time.
You said it yourself charging your skills isn't worth it for MA. My solution is this, have charging release their current level of damage like when you use a finishing skill, but you keep the charges. Finishing skills release all charges like currently. Mosaic only let you keep your charges, they don't expire anymore.
That means you charge up skills and use it to kill white monsters, then use finishing on special monsters or you just rotate your skills. That also makes dragon talon not the best finisher.
I want all Ladder runewords in non ladder ffs 😅 still wasn't able to try this ......
if iam not wrong and i play offline only ... you can make all offline
bro.. you can make every runeword.. he did this offline..
I’m gonna delete my ladder assassin tomorrow, idk if I can get +3 PS bases for it but I’ll look for some bases if you want some Mosaics.
Offline and nonladder aren't the same. Nonladder is online which you can't make mosaic and any runeword that came after it. They still haven't changed it since what? S4?
Wears claws on arms, uses legs to kick
😆
Bro defense means you get hit or not haha... As in if you wear a huge thick armor you'll get hit less... Whuuuut?
I mean Mosaic is super fun, but it has it's weaknesses. It is super annoying to drop your charges... You have to mind blast sometimes (CS runs etc) Yes it is OP, but so is hammerdin/tesladin etc, Nova sorc etc... And those have been OP for 20 years. Leave it alone and have fun.
I would love them to limit the mosaic to only 1 will work. But add the other 50% chance to the full Nats set and allow it to stack.