Let's see if we can get this NVIDIA 4090 Cable to MELT!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2022
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I have a hard time believing AMD decided to not use it now a month from release(at most). It must have been a design choice early on.
It 100% was but people are just looking for excuses to call this a dunk on Nvidia when it really has nothing to do with them. People really think AMD is last minute making AIBs completely change their power delivery a month out
It may be both. Suspicions that turned out to be truth later. And preparation made behind scenes "just in case"
They could have seen the plug and had a feeling it was going to be a problem later on, hence the reason they didn't use it. Heck Intel doesn't even use it on their new GPU's either.
Absolutely. If launch is next month, cards are already assembled and ready to ship. They didn't just decide right now to go "lol whoops that connector sucks, recall all the finished product waiting to go out, and redesign and remanufacture all the PCBs to remove it!"
They never planned to use it in the first place. This is only coincidentally a dunk on Nvidia because the connector turned out to be rubbish. If the connector had been fine, AMD might have been dunking on themselves by using the old connectors that some would see as outdated.
But of course, the AMD fanboys are being exhausting, because as far as exhausting fanbases go, AMD's is definitely one of the worst.
Yea it'd take a while to replace if they were already in production. Alternative they could announce a delayed date during the "launch" without us knowing any better x3
I think it might be a good idea to recreate this in a case. as a case would have a warmer internal temperature.
you also have more constant stress or just less space in the case
i agreed
It's not the card that's melting. It's the power draw, and surface area of the contacts that's causing the melting, not ambient temperature. You need thicker contacts for more amperage. If the cable or contact delivering current is too small, it gets hot. This is why it's so important to plug in connectors firmly and correclty. If it's not making proper contact, it will get hot.
Steve had an issue with Linus the last time they tried to use a thermal camera through tempered glass lol
@@itnearu You can't just ignore the fact that a higher ambient temperature is going to have a factor. And for these tests to be accurate you need to recreate as close to as possible the same conditions as a normal user would have.
Best way to figure out your side panel compatibility with any cable is to find out what your maximum air cooler height is for your case. Find out your GPU height and minus the maximum cooler height and you'll see how much cable bend room you'll have or to see if the CableMod 90 degree connector fits.
The problem is there aren't many cases wide enough...
@@StoneAgedGaming True all the O11 cases even struggle with the side panel closing and other cases don't have the space for GPU length. Like for example I can only go with under 345mm max length for my card.
Ok, using this method, for the O11 AIR MINI, the max GPU width while using the CableMod 90 degree adapter is 146.8mm.
Few things to note:
-You're using an open bench, so there's less buildup of heat as would be found inside a case.
-You were only bending the wires at the end of the connector and NOT putting a side load on those connectors, which includes the pins. If you had a side panel pushing on the connector, that itself would apply some load to the connector, increasing the chances that it could start to run away.
The main issue you get melting in these connectors isn't due to the wire itself, but due to the resistance within the male and female pin not having enough surface contact to transfer that amount of current. Resistance is a function of the gauge of the wire and just as a thicker gauge wire can handle more load, less surface area connecting two pins together would mean it would reduce the load it can take before getting too hot due to resistance.
Once the resistance and heat builds up, it runs away as the heat increases the resistance therefore making it hotter, creating more resistance, etc. It effectively becomes a runaway fire hazard once it goes over a certain threshold.
The weakest part of all of these setups is usually the pins connectors. The wires generally have enough current capacity that this would almost never happen to the wire itself before it happened to the pins where it connects.
The pins are simply the weakest point in these situations due to their small size and also the ability for them to be bent/angled therefore reducing the surface contact between them.
A bit rambly, but just my thoughts on the situation.
Exactly, the problem is at the pins which can be deformed when mated and submitted to lateral stress, thus reducing contact and making the resistance higher, which causes heat 👍
Nailed it. Well put.
The issue with the connectors melting is most likely a pin fitment issue. A slightly too loose female pin connected to a male pin will have a slight air gap. At high current draw, this air gap will cause excess resistance which will generate excess heat and you will end up with melted connector. This failure is most likely attributed to cheap connectors.
I'd like to see this post pinned to the top of the comments!! Great explanation, and I'm glad you did it because I was looking to see so I don't have to. Great point!
Does anyone remember how badly Micro USB did this in the first gen?
Lucky they werent pushing power or everyone would've been screwed 😂
Hi Jay, you also should test it within the build. The adapter will touch the side panel in most cases and the side panel will apply quite some force on the terminal and contact points increasing contact resistance due to misalignment.
Put it in an SFF PC and watch it burn.
The 4090 is the size of a SFF
Exactly, while it's not needed in a build he should have tried to zip tie it down extremely bent to create constant pressure rather than just bending it for a second or 2
@@MrAllthatgoodstuff You can't put a graphics card in a PC that's smaller than the graphics card is.....
@@aaronthomas6155 they never said put it in a case where the gpu doesnt fit...
409p fe definitely fits in sff in some sff cases.
using an open test bench for this may be difficult to reproduce results. need to find out which cases are being used along with the other variables like jay was saying.
Those CableMod cables look SOOOOOOOOO good. Thank you for all the work you do!
At this rate 5 years from now we will be plugging our GPUs into the 220 line that we use in our basements to run our clothes dryers. "Hey man! I can't game right now. It's laundry day." "I gotta wait until my clothes are dry."
dry ur clothes using the sun, quick and simple, well, not quick, just simple
@@energetic0oak329 Cloudy days be like:
@@StickyKeys187 xD
nah, the cables are gonna come with fans pre-installed
@@StickyKeys187 ever hear of gravity?
dear cable mod: thank you! no seriously I've used your products in the past, I built my own sleeves in the past, you guys are the best. I am so glad that you took this issue very seriously, for consumers, and for you. it's crazy to think that people will go with aftermarket cables because they are safer now! it's crazy, but it's a branding coup, and you guys deserve credit for it.
whatever man put it simply i dont like their ways and thats it, everything taken into considerations mainly whether it affects my health or not bcs thats whats matter to me, apparently not for some people but thats okay
The glass transition temp of the nylon used in the connector is probably 80C. Once it reaches that temp, the connector loses its strength and the pins have the potential to move out of place causing further temp increases until the point where it catches fire.
Also keep in mind that the connector will get much hotter in a warm case than an open testbench
The spec for the connector is supposedly rated for up to 105'C - its entirely possible that materials being used in some cables are not up to the standard.
It's also glass fibre nylon, PA12. Same stuff I use in my 3d printer, it's glass transition temp is more like 130. I think all this heat is just related to the card conducting heat into the wires. The 1st test the card was entirely cold
@@SquishyThing it's actually slightly better than the stuff used in 3d printers because the fibre grain is much longer but I doubt it would deform at all until it's about to catch fire
@@infernaldaedra It depends on the filament, each one you buy has listed the length of the fibres. Some of them are even longer. Rn I have a carbon fibre one with 1 continus strand of CF that runs through the whole roll. Markforged do one similar with glass fibre. Most consumer grade use a very low % of CF or glass fibre as the nozzles wear out fast, mine has a hardened steel one so I usually buy the industrial stuff that's nearly 30% glass fibre
this, and more, like, if ppl bend, it streses the pins, it moves them, makes the connection surface less,
is the design of that small plug
My opinion is that instead of aggressive bend but ultimately no tension on the connection from the wire, add some kind of tension from pulling the wire like some people might do when cable managing inside a case
I think a more accurate and probably higher failure rate would be to bend the cable WHILE it is plugged in, putting more pressure on the pins themselves which seems to be the point of failure. I understand you may not want to do that while plugged into a 4090 as you don’t want to damage the 4090’s connector but maybe plug it into something else. I think stress being put on the connector while plugged in is the main weakness of this connector here.
@theog_error404 yes but the burning was during use not during cable touching lol
You should try to bend the cable after you plug it and not before, that way the pins inside the connector may stick out of socket a little on one side and recreate the issue.
This
I was going to say the same thing.
Don't you know it's all for show?
Pretty sure it is a way to go.
1. Install GPU
2. Plug power cable
3. Press it with side panel
Either side force deforming socket loosens connection between pins or they are pulled away by cables.
@@iBolitN But you forget its Jay the gorilla, might aswell get a monkey to test it!!!!!!!!
The heat problem is going to be tied to the surface area of the connection between the connector pins (and the conductor size themselves). As wire size goes down, resistance goes up and a video card trying to pull high amps through a connection that isn't making good contact will heat up fast.
It is bad connection at the connecting surface that causes overheating and fire hasard... In my van that also uses 12v and same 50A you normally use big lugs that is tighened down HARD with big solid bolts and nuts + thick vires. DC 12 and 24v is notorious for creating hot spots and fires if the contact is just a little bit bad. . .
@@a64738 ha! Good point, in my old caravan from 1983 it's exactly the same. If the voltage is down, amps go up for same to archive the same stuff. Cause power has to keep the same more or less.
At a first look i thought man, this is overkill in terms of wire thickness 1/4 and bolted down with screws to the fuseboxes and with very Bick conductors)
Learned alot about power and currents working with 12 V in the caravan and this stuff applies also to our beloved gaming PCs
that's an absurdly common criticism i've seen of the Ultra High Voltage Bullshit 69420 connector they're trying to push.
It's like everything you just said is grade school level electrical engineering.
Funny that.
Yup, one time we tried to jump start a car and the wire we were using was a bit thinner than it should've been, and god did that stuff get hot..lol, life of working at a salvage yard though, we were always doing random stuff.
How are those tiny pins ever gonna be sufficient, even with a good connection?
Hey Jay, thanks for this, but: OPEN the 12PIN plug and see how the cables are soldered and how thin the metall of the plug is compered to the soldered cable, Igors Lab has made a video in german about it, search for it, please stay on that, thanks again :)
We are Teclab and made the tests (yoi called us Galax).
We run more than than 25, considering more than 12 minutes overload (rising 300W per step), and reached 127 Celsius.
Neither connector or cable melted, and it's still working.
Then we installed bad mounting (bad assembly, both horizontal and vertical, then temperature increasing over the time, what can cause damage and melt.
About 150 min testing alive.
Thanks
cablemod genuinely sounds like its going to be a lifesaver
Other than people who don't know better will think the cablemod cable is designed wrong because it won't allow a bend close enough to the card to allow a side panel, if the person wants to put a side panel on...ie,like normal.
@Shionne I think the easiest will be for them to make a proper stronger cable and them them out for free
I think the corsair one is fine too
NVidia is not thorough enough to check this, other companies have to do it for them.
Nvidia said if you use a cable mod cable it voids your warranty
Video Request: Trying the cable in different popular pc cases to see how aggressive the bend has to be to fit the side panel of the case. Could definitely show the differences between how NVIDIAs adapter fits VS the cable that cablemod, Corsair, ect supply. I am debating on doing an upgrade to 40 series but this cable is definitely making me hold off until this is figured out.
Its very tight in a Corsair A4000D which is not a small case by any means.
That sounds like something GN should do, they do case reviews and have the collection of popular cases while Jay has a limited selection because he doesn't do allot of case reviews and half of his can be considered open test bench more than case or SFF.
I have a Phanteks p500a. Easy fit. 4090 is a Beast.
Thanks for the nice video and for taking the risk! I believe from what I know about connectors to recreate the real situation you should keep the strength on the connector, not bend the cable and after plug it with no external force, you should keep some force in the connector to simulate the situation inside the case (where the case is always pushing the cables). Any torque in any direction to the connector will do the job I guess. The initial bending is probably not affecting at all, you probably will never really damage the connections to the pins with that.
In addition to what other have been saying, i.e test in an actual case, you must also consider ambient temperature.
I don't have AC, and sometimes in the summer I've been playing with 30°C room temperature, and I can tell you, the temperature of the system is much different, so I'm sure it's the same for the cables.
Like I mentioned in your last video, I don't think it's the bending of the cable but rather the rounding/ovaling/enlarging of the female side of the adapters and cables which can be done when plugging it in or bending the cables after it's been plugged in.
Yes, I agree. Especially if there is constant stress from being smashed by a side panel with heating and cooling cycles causing further deformation and travel of the contacts.
Jepp the wires are big enough in cross section to handle the current. The problem is the lead on female to male connection. There seems to be not enough material so the crossection becomes to bottleneck e.g. resistor which then heats up and or if the connection is only partial even sparks will happen. And the later seem to be corresponding with the photos of the plebbit post. A melting or partial melting would just reform the material.
You should try a stabilty test for hours on a intensive amp draw like 600 wats for a few hours see if the connectors get hot or burn like others .
Agree with Leo, set this test up in a small box room with only a small window for ventilation, use a closed case with maybe less than ideal or average cooling/air flow. These are the scenario's that might get you in trouble. Using an open test bench rig in a big open studio is so far away from what the average pc gamers set up will be, its like comparing oranges and apples.
Ltt posted a video showing a 4090 pulling more wattage in cyberpunk 2077 than in stress tests most likely due to the added ray tracing. Could this make enough difference?
Was also seeing draws pretty much exceeding the ratings on some those psu's used, but are very top end, so I'm wondering if the ones that are failing are a combination of psu makes/watts, cable seating/bend, load type and, maybe even more importantly, just user error.
The Founders on an open bench is probably the least realistic test, but at least Jay tried, and asked for more info on what setups are having the issue.
"We gotta try it" - same thing Nvdia said as they released cards with dangerous connectors
“I wonder what can go wrong”
Also when they tried to sell the 4080 12GB.
@Muscleman8562 *looking for anyone who cares*
Noone found!
its not the connector thats dangerous, its the bending of the cable that is dangerous...
cables and connectors have been melting due to overly aggressive bending for over 20 years.
You call it dangerous but nobody proofed that those cables are actually dangerous, yet. Just because some people have a burning problem we shouldn't immediately assume that this is actually a hardware error. Most of the time it is actually a user error. I myself work in a service team in a tech company and there are way more people doing stupid shit with their hardware than the hardware actually failing themselves.
The Problem is NOT the plug itself. IgorsLAB made a great Video about that.
The cable that's provided with the cards is just really bad.
These really thick cables a soldered to very very thin soldering pads inside.
The cables in the middle are each soldered to two pads, but the outer ones are only soldered to one pad each. The pads literally just snap off by bending the thick cables.
That's why a dedicated cable doesnt have the same fault.
One big oversight here.... Open test bench vs closed computer case.... Ambient temps will rise higher over time inside a sealed case. If your open test bench ambient is low 20's in celsius, and the ambient inside a case running a 4090 at full tilt for a few hours is say in the 40's celsius (or higher), then that will cause the connector to be way hotter. I dont think you will get it to fail with it on an open test bench.
I say try again, but next time put it in a mid or full tower tempered glass sides with the usual computer's fan configuration (not the perfect fan configuration that you would use because you have been building PCs for years).
or better still, everyone that reached out to you, get thier system spec, including fcooling system (number of fans and push or pull config) and then document each system and create a system in a similar case and repeat the test... Whats the bet your results couldnt be more polar different.
20:19 if that had happened on an open air test bench, then its likely this video wouldnt have been made as the recall would already be happening and your video would be about the recall instead.
Hi Jayz, there are one possible situation you might want to test. When build the system, it make sense for people not to pre-bend the adaptor cable, and let the side panel / cable management to form the bend, thinking it will give the biggest radius. However, doing that will put stress constantly at the connector, result as a potentially worse situation. In addition, when the bend is formed by pressing the side panel / stretching the cable behind the motherboard tray, the connector is not guarded by hand compare to the pre-bend method as you show in your video.
jay: wants to test under usual user conditions
also jay: tests on a 200$ test bench
Your right a user of a 1600$ card just hasn’t 200$ boards
@@domi06021988 More like no one uses test benches.
@@domi06021988 They put it in cases, not test benches, smartass
@@domi06021988 how many people do you know who use an open air setup?
@@Null_Experis if the comment make a point on open air I go with you but furgfury points the price out not the thermal difference to a case
thank you for this video. I ordered the cablemod cable that ends with 4x 8 pin, the safest option before buying the actual card: 600w/4
You should do in case, or slightly push or pull on the wire to simulate being in a case, the problem is when put pressure on the connector it causes the connector to have less surface contact on the pin connections.
how much hotter would it get inside an actual case instead of an open air bench?
That was my first thoughts too!
I'm guessing about 20° hotter or more, I have a corsair commander pro with a probe in the exhaust air, in a LIAN Li 011 and all fans populated and my exhaust temp with a 220w gpu is around 40°c, about 20 above ambient, and that's probably a better case scenario
@@kalle5548 kick the tires and light the fires.
This is likely also more of a long term issue: if that connector stays at 60 degrees for hours, it's going to become a little more flexible and eventually bend more and more and contact in the connector will worsen up to a point it really heats up and melts.
Honestly they should switch to higher voltages like 24V maybe even 36-48V. The amps we push through that 12V rail is getting a bit crazy. 500W at 12V is a whopping 40A, that's a lot for any connector to handle especially ones that just clips on like that.
Either that, or return to the good ol' 8pins. 150W/plug, need 4 for 600, ok yes it's massive, but it has been already done, so no big deal.
I'm guessing the GPU would need a step-down transformer though. and the psu would need to step up. could work in the future though, neat idea.
@@Born_Stellar would require slight changes to the VRM but it shouldn't be too crazy. Step-up/down transformers are in the AC realm, but we're in DC land so the exact same tech that's already on the card but with a higher input voltage. It already steps down the 12V to ~1V for the GPU core and memory and doesn't really use 12V for much if anything. Phones and laptops already use higher voltages: USB-C PD supports up to 20V/5A and we still have super thin devices. Higher voltages are generally easier to handle than higher currents so it makes more sense to convert a high voltage to a lower one closer to where it's being used to minimize losses and high current cabling. Which is why houses use 100-240V outlets at 15A.
The main reason we ended up with this connector is attempting to remain compatible with existing PSUs, which I imagine the new ATX12VO standard weights in as well.
@@maxpoulin64 USB C goes even to 120W, so more then 20/5. More like 24/5.
Thanks Jay.... & the team of course for the efforts & clarifications....
The two original 4090's with melted 16 pin adapters have a BIOS power target of 450 W and a power limit of 600 W.
I believe the issue is when the adapter is used at its maximum design load of 600 W with uneven draw across the pins.
More testing is needed, and inside a case where the ambient temperature would be much higher than room temperature.
Jay this is an extremely common issue in the 3d printing community, its not that heat builds up over time, its that suddenly something isn't getting the power its supposed to the system so it sends more power and it starts to thermal run away. This can be caused by Air Gaps between the pins on the male and female side, or something with the card itself. Your test might not be able to cause the power pull that is causing this.
Also ambient temp plays a big role.
Agreed, this test doesn't account for poor quality control and tight tolerances.
Yeah so far the melting they show on picture is the connector to gpu itself that melts not the cable or connector on psu
So i think you are right about the male female thing and because the problem itself just affecting small number of people
It could be also ruled out as defect connector problem, i think they will just send replacement cable or something
Yeah he has no idea what he's doing
You have no idea what you're talking about. Thermal runaway is caused by a badly programmed controller when a thermistor disconnects or fails - when it doesn't see the temperature rising (due to the thermistor failure, even though temperature actually is rising), it just pumps more and more power into the heater until it catches on fire.
It's not something not getting power, then some magic happens and then everything's on fire for some reason.
This was fast
Glad to see something I suggested in a previous video that cablemod were already beginning the manufacture!
Good plug for CableMod (pun intended). I've used their pre-made kits for a few builds and man, they are great quality.
Also, my EVGA G2 1300 watt psu has 6 vga connectors on it.
Thank you for showing us an attempt to recreate the failures that have been cropping up. Glad to hear AMD is not going this route with the connector, but I’m concerned since they probably already have the product standing by ready to ship. I think they have the product announcement for the RX7000 series set for next week?
They could have tested connector before this event and decided to go with previous one (because of some issue or another). So they are just promoting their use of previous connectors. (which they had planned all along)
Unlike what Jay said, they didn't decide last minute to switch connectors. Before the 4090 launch it was already known that the new cables/connectors were problematic and getting hot. Nvidia used it anyway. AMD decided not to go with it probably because it didn't satisfy their testing/standards.
There nowhere was information that AMD will use this pin. Jay says it because he assumed "new standard, so AMD for sure uses it"
I think the most common "bend config" will be putting it in a regular atx case and trying to force the side panel back on over the adapter cable. If they don't know that much they also might not know how many fans to use in the case if they did manage to close it.
Probably the only way to make it melt is make the resistance at the connector high enough. Like not plugging it in all the way and the internal connectors barely touching the graphics card. Or maybe putting the plug in skewed so that only half of the pins are touching. If the reason for the melting was the smaller gauge cables it would melt at the cable as smaller surface area=more resistance. You should do collab with ElectroBoom with this. He will surely melt it. Anyway it might be defect in manufacturing also as jay said.
This is probably the most likly answer. when the pins are close enough but not touching then you get bridging which raises the heat. this is the biggest reason for electrical fires in the uk and why its required for a qualified electrician to fit the electrics (in most cases). I had a similar thing happen last summer where the wife was using an outside device and the socket was bridging internally. the socket itself melted where the connectors are. which could have caused a fire if it wasnt for the device to stop working.
Possibly they are using some cheap adapters they got to work on older psu's they have?, until can afford to also upgrade that part, or think they'd have to?
The first failure picture looked very much like the top row (bottom row) were all contacting poorly, from a hard bend. Sure which orientation it used, one row is GND, one row is 12v.
Or talk to buildzoid, he has some experience with more technical stuff.
It could even be out of spec plastic
this... also, gib more power, not pigtails!
According to igorsLAB the problem is inside the 12vhpwr connector itself, especially the solderpoints and far too thin bridges. You would have seen it after cutting that side open! Other than that the standard itself isn't the problem so most native 12vhpwr cables from power supplies seem to be safe (haven't looked into cablemod). So it lies inside the adapter only
I haven't seen cable mod use bridges before, so it looks as though there is only one problem manufacturer for now; nVidia.
Even cheap ass adaptor cables (third party cables like cable mod, but at "unbelievably" low prices, and with dodgy descriptions) could be more robust and safer than nvidia's.
I bet AMD will have a field day with this.
According to recent reports, this appears to be a narrative for damage control
@@LiveBenchmarks It's looking a lot more like the socket on the cards. I'm just glad l can't justify that much cash on a graphics card, so I can just watch the story slowly unfold.
Working as a electrical fault tracer i seen a lot of "blown terminals" (female terminal expanded) directly from the manufacturer, unfortunately, its really hard to prove afterwards as you would need both connectors(card+pigtail) in a "untouched" condition.
But if you just want to know, you just use a pin of the correct size and probe the terminal(female) and check/feel the resistance.
Do it in a pc case, route the cables like you would and see what are the results
Edit: from what I've seen it's not the cable itself but the pins and connections to the 12V power connector on the gpu that are causing this
PC case really plays a huge role in heating those cables, because hot air from the sides of the GPU goes along the side panel of the case, where the cables are.
he need to bend the cable side way ,and if the end pins loose a litle and dont make the connection properly this is what cause the burn, not the cable bending , in the case you have airflow so i dont know if there wil be much diference in the heat there
The pins are small and stamped from a sheet. They have a slit on top and if put under torque from wire that u shape will open and they lose contact on most of the surface area and just bite on corners.
That seems to be what the consensus over on a lot of reddit threads are. The pins being pulled and more exposed, touching and heating up the housing due to aggressive strain. No one following the recommended cable allowance has felt much more than just a slight warmth to the housing at all
@@TheRustyTigger the fact there is a recommended way of using the connector without it catching fire is the problem, that just shows how dumb the new standard is.
For what I have seen, it is not the bent of the cable but the strain in the connector proper. Since the connector has sleeves of metal inside that have a seam, and open cut, if you put strain in the connector (not the cable) sideways (towards any of the shorter sides of the connector) the internal pins seem to open the sockets and then get hot. In sum: the problem here is not the cable but the connector, somewhat like the USB 3.0 internal header that tends to break, these tend to burn.
Try to make this test with the cable managed in a very tight way, so the cable is pulling from the connector sideways.
What about putting some stress on the plugged in connector? That might be happening if you try to put your side panel on and it will probably put some stress on the pins or even pull the connector out slightly.
A note on cables, the plating on the pins will slowly oxidize over time getting worse and worse eventually going into thermal runaway. mining risers using Molex will often work fine for months until the +12V pin is a dull dark grey.. and then melt just that wire.
I wonder if this is why EVGA chose to put the connector on the BACK of the 3090 Ti. It seemed like an odd choice at the time but now it makes sense.
30 series it wasn't mandatory to use nvidia's power connector they created for the FE. this time around it is required to use the atx 3.0 standard 12 pin.
I've been waiting on a 90 degree connector since I picked up my 3090ti.. finally!!!! Thank you for that information.
Jay I'm a miner i came across this a few times, with a poor connection/poor contact causing sparks that melts the plastic, you need to fine a defective plug to simulate the melt down and the power supply won't shutdown till a short happens. As always it comes down to quality.
16:50 - It's likely populated because they are using a similar production line as ones that will end up in normal 12-pin cables that will be with ATXv3 PSUs that will be manufactured. It was likely easier to have the leads just trimmed/shoved inside and hidden, than have an entire assembly line for omitting those.
14:50 _Do not do this._ Different PSUs often have different pinouts. It isn't even safe to assume that PSUs from the same manufacturer will have the same pinout. Plugging a set of cables with a different pinout to the PSU can fry whatever you plug it into.
I can vouch for this, I had a 850w evga power supply then upgraded to a used rmx1000 Corsair ps but had no cables, tried the cables from the evga and nothing happened, came across a video about mixing cables so I bought the original cables from Corsair and everything worked fine, I was lucky this time, can’t say the same for everyone
@@bluberrialpha You can vouch for this but you've never had it happen to you, gotcha
You are correct about not swapping between PSU's; Jay should have mentioned this. Jay likely knows Corsair has been using their Type 4 cables for a long time now. The RM1000X I got 6-7 years ago uses Type 4 cables that are the same as the cables I received with an RM 850X I just got a couple weeks ago.
I think one thing to you might be missing is time. It might only be a few degrees but extra heat over time, especially inside a case where the heat is likely to be higher could cause additional stress or additional movement as parts shrink and expand from heat changes at different rates.
I think so, too. Not necessarily thermal expansion, but rather plastic deformation. Many thermoplastics become softer when heated. Combined with constant force from the side panel pushing on it or the weight of the cables pulling on it, the connector could deform over time, which could lead to bad contact. Here, Jay was able to hit 60 degrees on the outside on an open air bench. A closed case will add another 10-15 and the temperature inside of the connector will also be a few degrees higher. We're talking about 80+ degrees here. Many thermoplastics start losing their mechanical properties around those temperatures.
I have the win 101 case and the glass was right up against the bent cable and it was fine for over a week using the adapter from the box, Corsair 1000w psu with no Corsair cable. After seeing the burnt cable, I took the glass off and straightened the cable to make sure it does not happen. I been using my pny 4090 since day one as well
Put one in a system today, Lian Li XL case, and still had issues with space. Worked fine until needed to place side panel back on. Side panel was causing the cable to "slightly" sag as it was pressed up on it. Then decided to work the cable up and over the card, panel still pressing against the cable but essentially holding it in place. No issues now, but man was it a pain in the behind.
Would like to see cable mod add 2 more 90° designs.
Going out lengthwise to the 12 pin with both latch orientations.
Having all 4 would cover almost any build with any card, and if the 12 pin does eventually get full integration with all the card manufacturers, will be damned near required of the psu and cable manufacturers.
They're working on. They're very active in Reddit rn posting blueprints and progress
@@cadenzproductions nice.
Hi jay, I know others have said this but I think testing in a case would possibly make a difference. I studied in automotive electrical systems and occasionally build custom harnesses and one thing I am aware of is location of high draw connection in relation to their surroundings can make quite a difference. For example if this test was recreated within a case then what you may find is a much higher increase due to the lack of ventilation. In addition to this over a longer period heat reflecting off the case itself could also increase temps beyond a safe limit. Another scenario and a one I have run into in PC building is fans creating, basically dead zone where heat is trapped by the actual airflow creating a low pressure zone within a case.
TBF he did mention needing more info from the various people this has happened to in order to recreate the conditions the other 4090's were under.
The "DEAD ZONE" of AIR is VERY plausible and if you even look at NFPA 70 codes in relation to air space in conduits or the like, it specifically refers to this. It doesn't say Dead Zone,all meaning is about thermal rise in areas like this. And the warmer the AREA of Operation the WIRE is IN,the more DE-RATED the current capacity of ANY wire will have ! NO ONE has ever talked about that yet in Tech Channels,except 1rst time @cheyennedogsoldiers ! It may not be much of an issue for 99% of users cause we don't let our PC's get very warm,but it's there. What they test for.
@@wojtek-33 If you increase ambient temperature by 30* (from ~20*C ambient, to ~50*C inside the case) you will also increase the cable temperature by ~30*C
So if it reached 60*C in Jay's tests, then inside a case it would reach about 90*C
@@wojtek-33 It does, heat dissipation is relative, if the place where you are dissipating heat gets warmer then you will be dissipating less heat. The balance points will be at the same temperature differences between ambient and object.
That is why overclockers use liquid nitrogen, because lower temperature allows them to remove heat faster and move the balance points lower.
Maybe it’s a combination of bending the cable AND pressing the bent section against the edge of the case, causing it to pick up more heat, not dissipate that heat, and melt. The two people who had melted cables may not admit it was squashed against the case in order to try to get a refund from Nvidia
Even if this were the case it isn’t an excuse to pin the blame on the consumer. If a cable does melt from bending then there’s a problem.
There are probably a few variables to how it happened and mo info is needed. Some have already suggested a side bend test but yeah its hard to know what to test since this is new.
Hey Jay, have you thought about that there could have been constant pressure on the cable bend from the glass of the side panel? That could both keep the bend in a tighter position, and also forced the contact pins slightly out of alignment at the same time. Then run the card in an enclosed case with inadequate ventilation and you both a more serious problem and more realistic scenario. Not many people do this on test benches.
He said that
@@Gigalisk Yes, but he didn't try it. I think if he tried it in a case rather than on a test bench, he might be able to get a failure without too much trouble.
The CableMod 12VHPWR cable (like Jay showed in this video) come in two types - terminating into 3 x PCIE or 4 x PCIE at the PSU end. I got the 4 x PCIE for my AX1200i.
RIP AX1200i - went through 4 of them
@@Don.Lamaack I had 3 of the AX1200’s pop in three months, eventually I asked Corsair to give me an upgrade to the AX1600 which they did, been solid ever since
Where'd you buy the cable from?
@@joophommie Cablemod. I ordered a 4 plug version yesterday for my 4090 and signed up for the 90° adapter that is coming out in 3 days time. A must have to eliminate any harsh bending of the cable and help reduce any potential damage. Cablemod cables aren't cheap. It cost me £65 to get the 4 plug 4090 custom coloured cable shipped to the UK. Worth every penny though if it saves your £2000+ GPU setting on fire.
Unless you don't plan to overclock I would get the four plug one for 600 watt I guess the only reason why you might not do that is if your PSU doesn't have enough plugs but then you really should probably invest in a new BSU
One thing I've noticed in most if not all of the pictures on reddit of people posting their burned cables, it's that the 2 outside top pins (which were the ones burned) had their pins pushed back into the connector about halfway which would drastically decrease contact area and thus increase heat, meaning yea it might be a bending issue, but probably not, since then the other top pins should've been pushed back too. not just the outer ones. My guess is going to be a simple lack of QC, and some connectors just being of subpar quality.
If the pins were pushed/pulled out of place due to bending, then all top pins should've been so too.
Ofc this wouldn't have been so immediately catastrophic if they hadn't attempted to shove 10 to 12 amps through such a tiny connector
This sounds plausible, so much current through 12 pins leaves very little play for something going wrong, one or two slack pins can generate a lot of heat.
Seems the other comments are right, try it with the connector / cable under constant tension?
Like it was operating while pressed against the side of a case, or with cable management pulling on the cable?
It is not so much the bending of the wires but the pressure on the plug itself. Attaching the plug over and over again and/or putting pressure on the connection itself will reduce the contact area between the male pins on the GPU and the female pins on the plug. Smaller contact area means more electricity going through a smaller area which increases heat and melts the connector around the metal if it gets hot enough.
Yes. it is a pressure by PC case.
It is bad connection at the connecting surface that causes overheating and fire hasard.... In my van that also uses 12v and same 50A you normally use big lugs that is tighened down HARD with big solid bolts and nuts + thick vires. DC 12 and 24v is notorious for creating hot spots and fires if the contact is just a little bit bad.
@@ingulari3977 Molex makes those plugs. They know their stuff TBH.
I think a good explanation would be that the cable was not fully plugged in, so that the pins only make partial contact. That way, more resistance between the junction of the connectors will definitely heat the connector part up. There's probably loads of people that can make such a mistake by accident.
This seems like it. People might be lacking the finesse to properly seat such a different connector, takes some getting used to like it did when USB 3.0 headers came out with 2mm spaced dupont instead of the standard 2.51mm.
The pictures of the damage certainly look like a loose or failed connector. Even the best Mil spec connectors fail from time to time. The techsphere blew this one case right up.
To get a hot joint you really need to apply constant pressure to the connector (to simulate a side panel pressing against the cable).
16:39
perhaps they were left bare incase it gets too hot, starts to melt, which could perhaps make a connection to each other, sending a signal to the gpu which in turns tells the gpu to draw less power?
MAYBE?
Ever thought about bad crimped contacts? Or a too lose connection between the metal parts, could be caused by bending, too? There are a lot of amps going through those thin cables and connectors, combined with small arcs or higher resistance, this is nuts!
@@tacticalcenter8658 wow, just wow! Check igor's Lab's latest video, they opened one of those connectors. They are soldered! Way too less metal as pins, just crazy
I love the frequent uploads so god damn much!!
@Muscleman8562 it's funny cause no one asked
I think it would cause a failure/ more heat if you were to insert the connector straight and then bend the wiring after connected.
It appears as though the pin damage is occurring due to the female terminal getting distorted by the male terminal.
if the cabling is pre bent the pins/ terminals will still seat straight.
17:10 why not use a continuity tester on the pins to find out if they are connected ?
i agree
Might be variance in the adapter, e.g. uneven wire gauge or crimping issue. Also you should try to run it inside a not-completely-well ventilated (but reasonable) case. These things can add up.
ambient heat is not the cause of why the wire fries and melts. so that would not affect the experiment whatsoever. the experiment is about trying to make the pin get in contact with each others through bending and handling, lowering that pin resistance and let a surplus of ampere through it, causing the burn. it's not ambient heat making the cable and connection fry, it's the unusual amount of ampere that gets into the damaged connectors. It's ohm's first law. Study more, kiddos.
@@davidepannone6021 You must be a troll, because that made no sense.
@@karmakh you must be an idiot, because you don't know ohm's first law.
@@karmakh You need an education....
Tbh they should just use 3 normal PCIE connectors. If it would look the same as the motherboard connector, it would be just fine, maybe put it on the right side so it's out of sight
That's the whole thing, they're trying to solve a non-existing issue
yup, if it aint broke, why fix it (and potentially make it worse)
Exactly, making it smaller is fixing no issue.
Would have liked to have seen the cable mod cables heat tested too. What kind of heat do they generate?
You need something pulling down on the cable or pushing on it putting forced and stress on the connector.
In a case cables will sometimes be barely long enough to reach or the sidepanel will push against the card. Also remember the ambient temperature in side a case is much hotter than an open air test bench.
Oh my god the 90 degree adapter. I've been asking for something like this forever.
We're gonna need water cooled power connectors soon.
I think vertical mounting gpus needs to be standard now. they're so big and heavy you have to put a stand on it to keep it from sagging.
Water Cooled power connectors with RGB lol
Try it in a case, the pressure from the case would slightly unseat the connector (ever so slight in theory) and that bit of space could cause arcing which in turn could cause the failure to happen more consistently. Working on airplanes and how they're wired I've learned that if something isn't FULLY seated it could melt.
Exactly, when just bending the cable and then connect it, the inner connectors "go back into place", however with the side panel against the bend, the connectors inside can't go back into place
I love how everybody is trying to rationalize this as being okay at this point. Like I said in another comment, I've already blown my computer budget on other stuff for the fall. I don't even play games much these days, I'm busy, and I had other autumn/winter things I can spend it on than a 5700XT that doesn't need to be replaced or replacing my monitor. A part of me thinks I probably shouldhave looked at ultrawides and 7800XTs first but let's face it I'm not gonna wait and I don't know AMD isn't going to do stupid shit because simps let nVidia normalize it like the connectors, prices, and absurd TDPs.
I wonder if there will be *good* 90/180 degree adapters for this because even if this is a .1% issue that's still gonna impact a lot of people
Cable mod just released these the day after I got my 90 lol. Currently a pretty cramped setup but fingers crossed it doesn't burn before the adapter gets in
Jay, could you make a video talking about pigtails PCIe related to the 4000 series. Thanks and love the videos.
same..im using a 4090 with 2 pcie pigtails, im guess each pcei is 300w totalling 600w. hows your 4080 holding up now with it?
I think 2 plugs is fine, like most PSUs have that connector where it terminates into 2 6+2 Pci-e connectors, each of which should handle 150W so that means the cable could, in theory, support 300W. So the Corsair cable which ends on 2 300W plugs for the PSU, should provide the 600W on the new plug needs to power the card.
Correct the pins on the PSU end are mini-fit jr and can support 9.2a, so that is in excess of 660W across two of them. The issue with using a pigtail/daisychained/dual output cable is the wire itself has to be able to support 300W at least along the portion between from the PSU to the first connector on the GPU. Even 18AWG wire will support that amount of power over the short 2' or so lengths used by PSUs. You just have to be careful with either custom cables or cheap power supplies that come with under gauge wires, I've never seen a reputable PSU come with cables that wouldn't support 300W over a pigtail 2 output cable.
@@jmarynicz Best to go ATX 3.0 PSU forget these cables the power delivery is probably the issue here u need smooth power one plug from ATX 3.0 PSU to the card don't trust these adapters or they would not be making ATX 3.0 PSU they know this was going to start melting not worth risking with new technology don't cut corners
@@fortnite360HZ the reason for the ATX 3.0 PSUs are for communication between the GPU and PSU and future products. A good quality Current gen PSU is fully capable of powering a 4090 no problem assuming it's connected with a good quality cable/adapter.
@@jmarynicz Its better To just go ATX 3.0 PSU Thats just me piece of mind Its one cable vs splitters or pig tails i dont trust adapters u really dont and i own 1600 watts corsair i wont do it
@@jmarynicz i think Nvidia Is gonna get rich if people start damaging 4090s This is not worth The headache
I wonder if putting consistent pressure on the "bend" of the cable (such as the panel of a case, maybe the user had to give it a little "umph" to close the door) would make any difference over days or a week?
The cable must have not been seated probably or received pressure from the door! Could be defect in that specific cable too. A few bad cables on hundreds of thousands of cards is actually really good.
Hey Jay, most of the images I've seen showed the cable bending the other direction, or down in a standard horizontal configuration, may be useful to try bending it the other way ans testing.
You measured the actual cable temp but notice how hot it is around the connector. When closed into case, the heat will start to affect the connector. Unfortunately there was not seen what was the max temp FLIR registered but from color scale it was just beside the connector. What you have proved is that in open case everything is just fine ;)
5090 is gonna need a separate AC plug
5090 will be and external PC, i mean GPU
@@darkanraiden
that cable-mod 90 should have an RGB little 50mm fan on it 😁
give the plug 60 connection cycles and then test it again
it should be noted that just the one benchmark might not actually stress the power draw as much as you would expect, you probably need a small combination of games that can flick the power draw up, such as through free-spinning framerates in a loading screen for example. Also the conditions when used inside a closed case could increase the temperatures by over 20 degrees, especially if the cable were to be contacting the hot backplate, in fact even just the limited airflow causing the VRMs to run much hotter could be all you need for a 100+ degree socket.
Huge ups to CableMOD really nice products always!
I think you're going to have to try it in a case. I think that if the cable was to touch the side panel, then that would add pressure to the connection that could cause higher temps. I think you're onto the right track with this cable and the issues it has though.
as he stated. the event he was trying to recreate was with a vertically mounted GPU so there was no case pressure on the connector at all.
Props for risking a 4090. One thing that could be happening and ive had this happen with a wall outlet is thay if the plug isnt properly seated or wires are bent and there are gaps between the pins it will cause the electricity to arc between them and that will also heat up the plug
A 4090 is change to a millionaire
Pigtails wont change much on the connector bit. I bet the problem is open test bench vs a tight fit against (probably) plastic/glass, which insulates the point where the cable touches, plus hot air from the gpu being circulated around the cable. Open air test bench is kind of the best case scenario here, apart from blowing a fan directly at the connector.
If the pins are bent, causing them to melt. I think this is what everyone is missing. Having been in the electronics repair industry for over 25 years, I see it all the time in appliances in a poor connection. In consumer electronics, it is very prevalent in high voltage supplies when a connector is not designed or connected properly. By design, this type of connection should have always been at an angle due to the fact the card's power input is in direct contention to the case it is going to potentially contact.
60c is still 40c over ambient, in a closed case, with a bunch of cables crumped together and basically no airflow, it could get much hotter. It would be interesting from a purely theoretical point of view to know what temperature the plastic melts at, to know if it's even achievable with just heat or if it must involve arcing or fakes.
Testing the plastic melting temperature should be easy with a heat gun. But still, 60c is pretty far from any plastic melting temp.
@@InfoDav Exactly, you can put plastic in a pot of boiling water and it won't even melt.
If this is ABS plastic which it likely is, the melting point is around 104°C
@@thunderbolt10031 it's not 104c at all, it'll be closer to 200c for abs, it'll get weak at 104c but would never melt.
Well ambient for me is 32°C to 35°C, so the connector would run in excess of 70°C give or take and even hotter inside a case ☠️
You should try it in a case with standard airflow, and with the glass side panel holding it bent.
As Leo D's top coment has said, the test needs to be done inside a case where there is more heat, not outside of the case
ce faci rapha =]]]
ambient heat is not the cause of why the wire fries and melts. so that would not affect the experiment whatsoever. the experiment is about trying to make the pin get in contact with each others through bending and handling, lowering that pin resistance and let a surplus of ampere through it, causing the burn. it's not ambient heat making the cable and connection fry, it's the unusual amount of ampere that gets into the damaged connectors. It's ohm's first law. Study more, kiddos.
cablurile nu se prajesc pt ca se genereaza caldura in jurul lor, ele se prajesc pentru ca se indoaie mult prea mult si se creeaza un fel de chokepoint pentru caldura
Try doing this in an INWIN 303 case. Lol
When you put it inside a case the avarage ambient temp helps to increase more.
Jay can you do a inside case test since it will run a lot hotter and a more real case problems ?
I'm sure the RMA process will be a headache. Nvidia is going to blame your PSU, case config, or user error. Too many outs for them
They can eat shitt
Hi Jay. Would you please consider building it all inside the case? It will be higher temp there
What is probably the biggest problem may be that the sidepanel that is squishing against the plug permanently keeps sideways pressure on the pins which may slide them out of the housing and therefore reduce the contactpatches even further. That's may not be able to reproduce at your test bench without more hardware.