The revenge plot was a bit convoluted but the idea of someone being inadvertently affected by Voyager's actions trying to make Voyager answer for those consequences is a good one. Stargate Atlantis used the idea well by having the Atlantis team put on trial for their actions in the Pegasus Galaxy. Voyager should have done something like that.
Voy could've been a lot better in the stargate mold. If Janeway had just said, "Yeah, you're right. The blood of all your people is on my hands, but I'm still going to try and stop you."
Meanwhile, in an alternate quantum reality. Arturas: "Your selfishness destroyed my world." Kess: "What are you saying?" Arturas: "You discovered the invaders from fluidic space. You found a way to defeat them, instead you ran, you used the Borg's distraction to your advantage to slip through their space, telling no one what was coming." Janeway: "Species 8472" Arturas: "in your colorful language yes, Species 8472. Did it ever occur to you that there was those of us in the Delta Quadrant with an investment in that war? They were more vicious than the Borg but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship." Janeway: "By my estimation, their war was with the Borg and to ally with them would only have made them stronger." Arturas: "Who were you to make that decision? A stranger to this quadrant!" Janeway: "There wasn't exactly time to take a poll, I had to act quickly, we barely escaped and I lost several of my crew in the process." Arturas: "My people, managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years the Borg began to weaken our defenses, they were closing in. But then they were gone, annihilated by Species 8472, who were even more vicious, more cruel. They came to finish the job and you had the means to stop them, you took that away from us! The Outer Colonies were the first to fall, 23 in a matter of hours, our sentry vessels obliterated, no defense against the swarm. By the time they surrounded our star system, thousands of bioships, we had already surrendered to our own terror. Barely any of us survived, a few thousand at best, I was fortunate, I escaped in a vessel, alone but alive. They weren't like the borg. Not mere drones, they weren't just acting with a collective instinct, they were set on purging this galaxy without mercy. They've devoured more than the Borg ever dreamed, the whole Quadrant is doomed and you knew! You had a choice!"
What makes Janeway right is that Species 8472 was very xenophobic and would go forth and eradicate anyone not like themselves. So, worse than the Borg.
9:26 Janeaway could have promised to defend Seven, as a member of her crew, whose safety she is responsible for, from any downside to returning to Earth, using the full weight of her authority.
Janeway talking about how much the Crew has given 7, does she not remember that 7 wasn't willing to leave the collective and was prevented from returning when that was what she wanted? Janeway's hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
While it's never said explicitly, rescuing Seven was like rescuing a victim from an abuser. They may not WANT to leave their abuser, but given time they are more likely to start to realize how it was indeed good in the long run. It does also play into the fact individuality doesn't mean you're always getting to do exactly what you want right then and there at all times. It's more complicated than that.
14:50 - He does have a ship that can fly to the Alpha quadrant and back in a couple of weeks, so in Star Trek terms it's not impossible that he could have researched how to trick Janeway and Co with a simulated ship. Or some of the other outlandish crap he managed.
Thats true ... but he should have troubles finding Voyager, considering the ship made a 10.000 light year-jump thanks to Kes. Once again Trek-writers didn't realize how huge the galaxy is and that flying really fast doesn't mean you find everything you are looking for in a short amount of time. "Course: Oblivion", "Equinox" ... the Delta Quadrant is really not bigger than a small town.
To give him the benefit of the doubt, Voyager is generally flying in a straight line and deviating from that mainly to stop and look at the interesting thing of the week. I could very well see him popping over to the Alpha Quadrant and studying the Federation enough to make a convincing appearance for his ship and an edited transmission.
I loved this episode so much back in the day. Finally some real consequences: in Scorpion they talk about Species 8472 hypothetically being seen as a welcome force against the Borg in the delta quadrant. And here we get the result of Voyager´s actions. And then these results will be never again be mentioned - besides the technology in "Timeless"
Yeah, what a waste. And the funniest thing is: Arturis isn't even mentioned in the next episode, where Janeway starts regretting previous decisions. Would have been perfect to include his story and "Scorpion" there, but it was all about her not using the caretaker's station to get Voyager back home ...
Star Trek: Prodigy would then reveal that after Voyager returned home, the Federation built an actual USS Dauntless with the registry NCC-80816, a functional quantum slipstream drive and Vice-Admiral Janeway commanding the ship as it searches for the missing USS Protostar.
It's so sad how we're only getting post-journey facts about Voyager in other series, instead of the finale. If you can even call "Hooray! We've made it home! * credits *" a finale.
Was it just me who thought that Arturis' obsession with vengeance and making Voyager pay for its actions are what caused the Borg Queen to develop her own intrigue in it? I dunno, that final scene where he was a drone and looked up with a hint of a smirk gave me that impression.
@@Mate397 weird. I'm watching it on UK Netflix and the last scene of him is him in a seat hearing the Borg saying he'll be assimilated. Maybe we got a different cut?
Should've been real Starfleet ship and everyone but Seven, Neelix and the EMH go home, leaving only 3 main cast members for season 5. First episode of season 5 is an argument over who will be captain. In the next episode, they realize they can't run a ship with 3 people and the EMH and Seven start cloning dead crew members, because cloning living ones would be unethical without their consent. Lt. Carey comes back, because even the EMH thought he was killed off. Seska returns in clone form because Seven was unaware she was eeevil. But the worst problem is clone Cavitt, who decides since he's a clone of the dead first officer, he should be captain.
I always rated this episode quite highly. Granted, Janeway's treatment of Seven is a downpoint, but I always felt Arturis was a fasinating villain, not just because of the magnificent performance, but because of the fact that he was right. It's not often I feel empathy for the antagonist, but watching him be assimilated tore at my heart strings.
Arturis was interesting - but that's also my problem with this episode: for the most part it's about his revenge-plot, but we don't know this. The revelation comes so late that there is not much time left for Arturis, his motivation and Janeway's reaction. You could have filled easily an entire episode with Arturis confronting Janeway and the following discussion about her previous actions. So it always felt tacked on for me. We have a good story about someone tricking the crew, but we need a motivation for the villain. This is why the ending didn't work nearly as good for me as it did for you. I also would have preferred if the shot of Arturis getting surrounded by cubes was the last scene of the episode. Instead we saw that Voyager even profited from this encounter by getting closer to home ... Which lead to the problem of Voyager not using slipstream again in the future in short bursts, so that they could repair the damage and do it again. I love "Timeless", but their explanation, why they only used slipstream this one time again was stupid.
Well, Seven's opinion on Janeway's job is similar to what she'd think of mine: except my working day's fuelled by tea and biscuits (because I'm a Limey).
This is one of the better episodes. Both sides had points (though Janeway's treatment of Seven was unjustifiable). Our "bad guy" was brilliantly portrayed (even with the convoluted plan).
at 11:38 is that a FREAKING office chair?! You mentioned that this episode spent so much on special effects that they didn't have enough left over for convincing props, but did they really have so little left over after making that set that they just brought in the chair from the writer's office or something? I mean really, it has caster wheels, with how many times people get thrown around when they hit those spacial anomaly bumps that thing will be flung RIGHT into the nearest wall.
Have you not seen Star Trek? This isn't the first time. Also in real world physics an office chair would be fine. Even impulse speed is 100,000's kph, a deceleration at that speed would turn you to liquid and shatter the chair into particles (and the ship) if they didn't have magic inertial dampers. Even if you had a seatbelt or restraints, those dont even protect at 100 kph.
@@kommodore979 the inertial dampeners prevent you from being splattered against the walls, but they don't stop ALL momentum, we see people get jostled around on the bridge and even knocked off their feet plenty of times, it's enough of an issue that they wouldn't use a chair with bloody caster wheels on the bridge.
This story is based on a plothole from Scorpion: "Why didn't Voyager just as the nearest alien species what was going on?" And also on the 'message' they got from 8472 via Kess "We're going to kill everything in this galaxy." If we're supposed to take the second part literally... Then yes, Janeway did the right thing. But also, if the statement was true, then the Borg would probably have an alliance (official or otherwise) with dozens of regional powers who would have already lost their own planets to 8472. They would need to work with the Borg, and the Borg would need to work with them. But that would make Voyager one small part in a larger story. One involving politics and factions. Potentially a much more interesting story, especially if the proceeding few episodes had featured streams of refugee ships going the other way to escape the war. But we all know how American standins in 90s scifi hate not being the centre of attention... On the other hand, if taking that statement literally was a mistake... There was no hint of that in Scorpion. None at all. So for this episode to turn around and pretend 'oh, that was obviously wrong all along' feels really cheap. "Did it ever occur to you that there was those of us in the Delta Quadrant with a vested interest in that war?" "Did it ever occur to you that once 8472 finished with the Borg, they were going to blow up your planets next? I'm sorry, I really am. But other planets survived. And if I hadn't acted, none of them would have." Based on all the information we got in Scorpion, that's how Janeway should have answered. That's how anyone should have answered. I mean I do really like this episode. It makes sense. Which makes it all the more galling when they retcon away one of Janeway's motivations in Scorpion, while keeping her actions identical. That one moment is just plain bad writing.
This was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. The Dauntless was so cool and on top of it really awesome looking. It funny because I completely bought the lie. It looked they took Voyager itself, used many of its design cues, and made this really sleep beautiful ship that looked really fast. As a matter of fact, that turn at the end of the episode that bothered me was that it wasn't a Starfleet ship at all, the fact that they couldn't get wasnt that big of a deal, you know they werent going home. But I would have loved for the ship to be real.
I like Hope & Fear, but wouldn't it have been better if the writers already knew they were opening season 5 with Night? That way, you can end season 4 with Voyager falling out of slipstream in the middle of the starless void they start next season with. "Captain, where are we?" as the screen fades to black and we're left to wonder what'll happen next season.
The Seven and Janeway stuff could work better if Janeway wasn't supposed to be in the right when she tries to guilt Seven so much as a morally dubious officer manipulating a vital crew member. Could even tie in to the crisis, she made the choice to get what would be best for her ship and someone might suffer for it. But if it's written just to have Janeway be right, it doesn't work.
Yeah Jeri Taylor wanted her perfect God-Woman-GirlBoss and ergo JW is never wrong. Anyone on the ship who dares think she might ever deserved to be challenged on anything or may have made a less-than-optimal choice ever, comes to dearly regret such a staggering lapse of wits (probably after their skin is tacked to the hull of the ship).
I love this episode because I can see both sides of the argument. Based on what was presented in Scorpion, it is logical to assume that had Species 8472 been allowed to destroy the Borg, they would have demolished the entire galaxy next, as they told Kes, and there would have been no way to stop them, so Janeway's deal with the Borg was objectively a necessary evil. This dude's species would have been demolished either way... by the Borg or by 8472. But as I said, from his perspective, with the info at his disposal, I would have been angry with janeway too.
Sadly this episode wasn't really about that discussion. They could have made an entire story just about that. Arturis was great, but Janeways answers always seemed strange to me, especially the "bigger picture"-part. You know he's suffering immensely from the assimilation of his species, but you just tell him that he needs to see the bigger picture? Yeah Arturis, the fate of your people isn't really that important. Get over it!
SFDebris has been on at least half a dozen streaming platforms, and his reviews over the past decade have always been a kind of intellectual comfort food - snarky, entertaining, and grounded in common sense. Along with raising a family, the “chimney of surprise”, and his own life-threatening health issues, the man is a real trooper on top of it all. Lesser men would have given up the third or fourth time he was deplatformed, but not him!
That would have been great: When Voyager comes home, everything is ready for an court martial for Janeway, because Arturis already testified against her 😂
What's this? No Leland Palmer or Leon Nash references? Alright - "OHHHHHHH Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey; A Harryly divey too, wouldn't you?? OHHHHHH.......".
I would recommend just substituting longer video clips from the show with a still image from the scene while still keeping the audio in tact...unless the visuals are vital of course.
I’m gay and I think that, even if Janeway’s motivation was different, my opinion of her aid in Species 8472’s defeat is positive. The only times that 8472 communicated anything, it was with a very “Kill em all, let god sort em out,” kind of attitude. With their telepathic abilities, I’m under the impression that this was a widely held viewpoint, rather than the attitude of a few aggressive soldiers on the front line. They posed a legitimate threat to far more than just the Borg imo.
Whats better than telling? Showing! They just needed to show us in "Scorpion" how 8472 attacks some other species besides the Borg (not counting the attack on Voyager). But all we got was a bubble with only Voyager, the Borg and 8472 in it.
@@lordmontymord8701 Definitely. Some sort of devastation on non-Borg planets in the episodes leading up to Scorpion would've been a good way to show that effect.
I liked this episode, mostly because it relied on continuity and the bad guy is... well, correct in his assessments. Voyager would be rightly called a villain by a whole lot of peoples in the delta quadrant, and frankly i'm surprised more didn't try and hunt them down. Janeway couldn't have known the danger posed by S8472 before she allied with the borg. re: the warp engines and stuff -- it makes sense if there's a bit of convergent evolution of warp travel -- it's happened many times in history where different inventors have had similar designs, in spite of never knowing about the other. my own explanation was 'our engines look quite similar... let's make it happen' -- and the rest kind of fits into place. is it lazy writing? a little. does it make sense? yes. So... fine. Plot convenience, away!
When i first saw this episode i liked it. But i changed my mind after a rewatch. You can say i like both parts of this episode, Arturis tricking the crew and him accusing Janeway, but they should have been a full episode each. There was so much potential in Janeway getting confronted with previous actions, but this part is too short for me in the episode. It felt like they needed a motivation for their villain and they found a good one circling back to the start of the season, but it was wasted for this short time. This isn't even mentioned in the next episode "Night", even though it's about Janeway regretting her decision(s). And Arturis getting surrounded by the Borg cubes should have been the last shot of the episode. Instead we see Voyager even profits from this encounter by getting closer to home. Which leads into the whole "why did they never use the slipstream again"-discussion. Yes i know - "Timeless", one of my favourite Voyager-episodes ... but the explanation is stupid. They could have used the slipstream for shorter amounds of time, repair any damage and repeat as long as necessary.
So the Borg assimilated slipstream technology. That means the Borg don't need those transwarp conduits that Voyager destroyed in their big moment of victory at the end, right?
The episode was entertaining but when you have the reveal it falls apart. The message was a gigantic heavily encrypted but also maybe corrupted file. Janeway finally cracks it after Arturis supposedly does. 1. Okay, I'll ignore Janeway continuing to work on a problem after it is solved (as far as she knew). Fine, it set up the reveal but that's also something that fairly toxic people do - not trusting someone else's work and being convinced you can do it better. 2. Why was that message encrypted? We can't get you home right now but we'll keep working on it. Even if someone would argue it's to keep it from being revealed to the crew - they're going to know that there's no plan to get home yet. If it was to a ship that Starfleet doesn't want stolen by anyone that intercepts the message I can understand why it would be encrypted but not the message that it turned out to be. I don't send a coded message to my parents saying that I'm okay. I'll send them encrypted files about my investments or something like that.
Imo it makes sense for it to be encrypted "There is a ship with absolutely no backup around here" isn't the sort of thing you want random hostile groups to know
Kind of BS to pretend that the Borg don't have a choice. Individual drones might not, but the collective hivemind for sure is making decisions, it's not a mindless force of nature. The only reason Arturis wants to punish Voyager is because he can't punish the Borg and he's rationalising this choice. Also...Species 8472 did threaten universal annihilation in Scorpion, so how exactly was Janeway in the wrong here?
Ironically, this episode would probably have worked better as a two-parter, with the extra room to breathe. Wouldn't have been as well written, though, so I suppose it makes not much difference. I tend to think Arturis was a senior intelligence officer, or maybe a senior diplomat, before the fall of his homeworld. He has the skills of either, and either would be easily conducive to developing the kind of contacts that would make all this possible without access to any government's resources.
The revenge plot was a bit convoluted but the idea of someone being inadvertently affected by Voyager's actions trying to make Voyager answer for those consequences is a good one. Stargate Atlantis used the idea well by having the Atlantis team put on trial for their actions in the Pegasus Galaxy. Voyager should have done something like that.
Atlantis in general in my opinion is Voyager done right
@@skittles7306 Atlantis isn't amazing but imo it's much more enjoyable than voyager
Voy could've been a lot better in the stargate mold. If Janeway had just said, "Yeah, you're right. The blood of all your people is on my hands, but I'm still going to try and stop you."
In fact there are many episodes of SG1 and SGA, where the teams have to deal with the consequenses of previous actions.
@@lordmontymord8701 they make a point to revisit planets in Stargate which is appreciated
Meanwhile, in an alternate quantum reality.
Arturas: "Your selfishness destroyed my world."
Kess: "What are you saying?"
Arturas: "You discovered the invaders from fluidic space. You found a way to defeat them, instead you ran, you used the Borg's distraction to your advantage to slip through their space, telling no one what was coming."
Janeway: "Species 8472"
Arturas: "in your colorful language yes, Species 8472. Did it ever occur to you that there was those of us in the Delta Quadrant with an investment in that war? They were more vicious than the Borg but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship."
Janeway: "By my estimation, their war was with the Borg and to ally with them would only have made them stronger."
Arturas: "Who were you to make that decision? A stranger to this quadrant!"
Janeway: "There wasn't exactly time to take a poll, I had to act quickly, we barely escaped and I lost several of my crew in the process."
Arturas: "My people, managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years the Borg began to weaken our defenses, they were closing in. But then they were gone, annihilated by Species 8472, who were even more vicious, more cruel. They came to finish the job and you had the means to stop them, you took that away from us!
The Outer Colonies were the first to fall, 23 in a matter of hours, our sentry vessels obliterated, no defense against the swarm. By the time they surrounded our star system, thousands of bioships, we had already surrendered to our own terror. Barely any of us survived, a few thousand at best, I was fortunate, I escaped in a vessel, alone but alive.
They weren't like the borg. Not mere drones, they weren't just acting with a collective instinct, they were set on purging this galaxy without mercy. They've devoured more than the Borg ever dreamed, the whole Quadrant is doomed and you knew! You had a choice!"
What makes Janeway right is that Species 8472 was very xenophobic and would go forth and eradicate anyone not like themselves. So, worse than the Borg.
@@qdllc Call it a tie.
9:26 Janeaway could have promised to defend Seven, as a member of her crew, whose safety she is responsible for, from any downside to returning to Earth, using the full weight of her authority.
Janeway talking about how much the Crew has given 7, does she not remember that 7 wasn't willing to leave the collective and was prevented from returning when that was what she wanted? Janeway's hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
While it's never said explicitly, rescuing Seven was like rescuing a victim from an abuser. They may not WANT to leave their abuser, but given time they are more likely to start to realize how it was indeed good in the long run.
It does also play into the fact individuality doesn't mean you're always getting to do exactly what you want right then and there at all times. It's more complicated than that.
Funny thing was, it took me years to pick up on Ray Wise's character was called: "Arturis". I always thought everyone just kept saying: "our tourist".
I am so glad I am not the only one!
Hope and Fear is about the equation that goes on in my mind whenever I start a new Voyager episode.
14:50 - He does have a ship that can fly to the Alpha quadrant and back in a couple of weeks, so in Star Trek terms it's not impossible that he could have researched how to trick Janeway and Co with a simulated ship. Or some of the other outlandish crap he managed.
Thats true ... but he should have troubles finding Voyager, considering the ship made a 10.000 light year-jump thanks to Kes.
Once again Trek-writers didn't realize how huge the galaxy is and that flying really fast doesn't mean you find everything you are looking for in a short amount of time.
"Course: Oblivion", "Equinox" ... the Delta Quadrant is really not bigger than a small town.
To give him the benefit of the doubt, Voyager is generally flying in a straight line and deviating from that mainly to stop and look at the interesting thing of the week.
I could very well see him popping over to the Alpha Quadrant and studying the Federation enough to make a convincing appearance for his ship and an edited transmission.
I loved this episode so much back in the day. Finally some real consequences: in Scorpion they talk about Species 8472 hypothetically being seen as a welcome force against the Borg in the delta quadrant. And here we get the result of Voyager´s actions. And then these results will be never again be mentioned - besides the technology in "Timeless"
Yeah, what a waste. And the funniest thing is: Arturis isn't even mentioned in the next episode, where Janeway starts regretting previous decisions.
Would have been perfect to include his story and "Scorpion" there, but it was all about her not using the caretaker's station to get Voyager back home ...
Star Trek: Prodigy would then reveal that after Voyager returned home, the Federation built an actual USS Dauntless with the registry NCC-80816, a functional quantum slipstream drive and Vice-Admiral Janeway commanding the ship as it searches for the missing USS Protostar.
It's so sad how we're only getting post-journey facts about Voyager in other series, instead of the finale. If you can even call "Hooray! We've made it home! * credits *" a finale.
Set phasers to stain. 🤣Love it.
Was it just me who thought that Arturis' obsession with vengeance and making Voyager pay for its actions are what caused the Borg Queen to develop her own intrigue in it? I dunno, that final scene where he was a drone and looked up with a hint of a smirk gave me that impression.
That could have been an interesting thread to tie into it all.
@@JosephDavies Indeed it would have.
There's a scene where he's actually a Borg?
@@DanteCorwyn At the very end of the episode.
@@Mate397 weird. I'm watching it on UK Netflix and the last scene of him is him in a seat hearing the Borg saying he'll be assimilated. Maybe we got a different cut?
Should've been real Starfleet ship and everyone but Seven, Neelix and the EMH go home, leaving only 3 main cast members for season 5. First episode of season 5 is an argument over who will be captain. In the next episode, they realize they can't run a ship with 3 people and the EMH and Seven start cloning dead crew members, because cloning living ones would be unethical without their consent. Lt. Carey comes back, because even the EMH thought he was killed off. Seska returns in clone form because Seven was unaware she was eeevil. But the worst problem is clone Cavitt, who decides since he's a clone of the dead first officer, he should be captain.
I always rated this episode quite highly. Granted, Janeway's treatment of Seven is a downpoint, but I always felt Arturis was a fasinating villain, not just because of the magnificent performance, but because of the fact that he was right. It's not often I feel empathy for the antagonist, but watching him be assimilated tore at my heart strings.
Same. It still hits hard when I think of his last moments knowing he was doomed
Arturis was interesting - but that's also my problem with this episode: for the most part it's about his revenge-plot, but we don't know this. The revelation comes so late that there is not much time left for Arturis, his motivation and Janeway's reaction.
You could have filled easily an entire episode with Arturis confronting Janeway and the following discussion about her previous actions. So it always felt tacked on for me. We have a good story about someone tricking the crew, but we need a motivation for the villain.
This is why the ending didn't work nearly as good for me as it did for you. I also would have preferred if the shot of Arturis getting surrounded by cubes was the last scene of the episode. Instead we saw that Voyager even profited from this encounter by getting closer to home ...
Which lead to the problem of Voyager not using slipstream again in the future in short bursts, so that they could repair the damage and do it again.
I love "Timeless", but their explanation, why they only used slipstream this one time again was stupid.
Well, Seven's opinion on Janeway's job is similar to what she'd think of mine: except my working day's fuelled by tea and biscuits (because I'm a Limey).
This is one of the better episodes. Both sides had points (though Janeway's treatment of Seven was unjustifiable). Our "bad guy" was brilliantly portrayed (even with the convoluted plan).
Wise sells the hell out of this. His experience really helps with what could have been insufferable with a lesser performer.
@@postjm9 well stated
The part about the ship I always just thought of it as a ship that sorta looked starfleet by coincidence
4:25 Somebody tried to microwave leftover ramen noodle in a dollar store plastic bowl.
at 11:38 is that a FREAKING office chair?! You mentioned that this episode spent so much on special effects that they didn't have enough left over for convincing props, but did they really have so little left over after making that set that they just brought in the chair from the writer's office or something? I mean really, it has caster wheels, with how many times people get thrown around when they hit those spacial anomaly bumps that thing will be flung RIGHT into the nearest wall.
Have you not seen Star Trek? This isn't the first time. Also in real world physics an office chair would be fine. Even impulse speed is 100,000's kph, a deceleration at that speed would turn you to liquid and shatter the chair into particles (and the ship) if they didn't have magic inertial dampers. Even if you had a seatbelt or restraints, those dont even protect at 100 kph.
@@kommodore979 the inertial dampeners prevent you from being splattered against the walls, but they don't stop ALL momentum, we see people get jostled around on the bridge and even knocked off their feet plenty of times, it's enough of an issue that they wouldn't use a chair with bloody caster wheels on the bridge.
Tom Paris at the helm rolls back and forth around his controls. I always assumed he was in an office chair.
@@Here_is_Waldo His regular chair is on a rail. That's not much better, though, since there are no seatbelts either way.
Geordi had an office chair on wheels on engineering.
4:47 For anyone else having trouble hearing the difference, he says "Arcturus" the second time. I personally had to check the captions.
Uggggh. A Scene at the end where Janeway regrets her actions would’ve lead so easily into ‘Night’ which would’ve made a good episode great…
This story is based on a plothole from Scorpion: "Why didn't Voyager just as the nearest alien species what was going on?" And also on the 'message' they got from 8472 via Kess "We're going to kill everything in this galaxy."
If we're supposed to take the second part literally... Then yes, Janeway did the right thing. But also, if the statement was true, then the Borg would probably have an alliance (official or otherwise) with dozens of regional powers who would have already lost their own planets to 8472. They would need to work with the Borg, and the Borg would need to work with them.
But that would make Voyager one small part in a larger story. One involving politics and factions. Potentially a much more interesting story, especially if the proceeding few episodes had featured streams of refugee ships going the other way to escape the war. But we all know how American standins in 90s scifi hate not being the centre of attention...
On the other hand, if taking that statement literally was a mistake... There was no hint of that in Scorpion. None at all. So for this episode to turn around and pretend 'oh, that was obviously wrong all along' feels really cheap.
"Did it ever occur to you that there was those of us in the Delta Quadrant with a vested interest in that war?"
"Did it ever occur to you that once 8472 finished with the Borg, they were going to blow up your planets next? I'm sorry, I really am. But other planets survived. And if I hadn't acted, none of them would have."
Based on all the information we got in Scorpion, that's how Janeway should have answered. That's how anyone should have answered.
I mean I do really like this episode. It makes sense. Which makes it all the more galling when they retcon away one of Janeway's motivations in Scorpion, while keeping her actions identical. That one moment is just plain bad writing.
This was one of my favorite Voyager episodes. The Dauntless was so cool and on top of it really awesome looking. It funny because I completely bought the lie. It looked they took Voyager itself, used many of its design cues, and made this really sleep beautiful ship that looked really fast. As a matter of fact, that turn at the end of the episode that bothered me was that it wasn't a Starfleet ship at all, the fact that they couldn't get wasnt that big of a deal, you know they werent going home. But I would have loved for the ship to be real.
That kind of writing style for cliffhangers still baffles me.
I like Hope & Fear, but wouldn't it have been better if the writers already knew they were opening season 5 with Night?
That way, you can end season 4 with Voyager falling out of slipstream in the middle of the starless void they start next season with. "Captain, where are we?" as the screen fades to black and we're left to wonder what'll happen next season.
And Janeway should have thought about her cooperation with the Borg in "Night", another regret. But no, Arturis was forgotten ...
The Seven and Janeway stuff could work better if Janeway wasn't supposed to be in the right when she tries to guilt Seven so much as a morally dubious officer manipulating a vital crew member. Could even tie in to the crisis, she made the choice to get what would be best for her ship and someone might suffer for it. But if it's written just to have Janeway be right, it doesn't work.
Janeway is ALWAYS right - never forget!
Yeah Jeri Taylor wanted her perfect God-Woman-GirlBoss and ergo JW is never wrong. Anyone on the ship who dares think she might ever deserved to be challenged on anything or may have made a less-than-optimal choice ever, comes to dearly regret such a staggering lapse of wits (probably after their skin is tacked to the hull of the ship).
All hail chuck
7:46 - I did that once, you know. A liter of Stoli was involved.
I love this episode because I can see both sides of the argument. Based on what was presented in Scorpion, it is logical to assume that had Species 8472 been allowed to destroy the Borg, they would have demolished the entire galaxy next, as they told Kes, and there would have been no way to stop them, so Janeway's deal with the Borg was objectively a necessary evil. This dude's species would have been demolished either way... by the Borg or by 8472. But as I said, from his perspective, with the info at his disposal, I would have been angry with janeway too.
Sadly this episode wasn't really about that discussion. They could have made an entire story just about that.
Arturis was great, but Janeways answers always seemed strange to me, especially the "bigger picture"-part. You know he's suffering immensely from the assimilation of his species, but you just tell him that he needs to see the bigger picture?
Yeah Arturis, the fate of your people isn't really that important. Get over it!
I've just found this series and it's the best thing since sliced bread!!!
SFDebris has been on at least half a dozen streaming platforms, and his reviews over the past decade have always been a kind of intellectual comfort food - snarky, entertaining, and grounded in common sense. Along with raising a family, the “chimney of surprise”, and his own life-threatening health issues, the man is a real trooper on top of it all. Lesser men would have given up the third or fourth time he was deplatformed, but not him!
@@seanwieland9763 I've heard some of that backstory, is there anywhere I can catch up?
@@Karajorma sign up for his Patreon.
Man, the bots really hate this episode for some stupid reason.
9:07 SevenOfNine appears to be wearing a Federation insignia in this scean, so wouldn't it be mutiny to disobey Janeaway?
Wise was awesome. One of 4 Robocop stars to appear in Trek along with Clarence, Robocop and Dick Jones
To be fair, with a slipstream drive, he could visit the Federation.
That would have been great: When Voyager comes home, everything is ready for an court martial for Janeway, because Arturis already testified against her 😂
What's this? No Leland Palmer or Leon Nash references? Alright - "OHHHHHHH Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey; A Harryly divey too, wouldn't you?? OHHHHHH.......".
Is it wrong that _Twin Peaks_ is why I know that line is "Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy?"
Hope and fear!? this torture seasons gonna be great!
I never understood why she never brought up that their information about 8472 wasn't going to stop with the Borg, but take out everyone.
I would recommend just substituting longer video clips from the show with a still image from the scene while still keeping the audio in tact...unless the visuals are vital of course.
9:45 priceless xD
I find Janeway and Voyager generally so bloody frustrating.
Join the club, sane friend.
Seems kinda contrivend for the Starfleet message to be so super duper encrypted, if all it said was "can't help, sorry".
I’m gay and I think that, even if Janeway’s motivation was different, my opinion of her aid in Species 8472’s defeat is positive. The only times that 8472 communicated anything, it was with a very “Kill em all, let god sort em out,” kind of attitude. With their telepathic abilities, I’m under the impression that this was a widely held viewpoint, rather than the attitude of a few aggressive soldiers on the front line. They posed a legitimate threat to far more than just the Borg imo.
Agreed. I feel like walking back on that was a mistake narratively as well.
I'm really confused. What does being gay have to do with anything else in that statement?
@@boobah5643 because I'm gay
Whats better than telling? Showing! They just needed to show us in "Scorpion" how 8472 attacks some other species besides the Borg (not counting the attack on Voyager).
But all we got was a bubble with only Voyager, the Borg and 8472 in it.
@@lordmontymord8701 Definitely. Some sort of devastation on non-Borg planets in the episodes leading up to Scorpion would've been a good way to show that effect.
Ray Wise was also the President Of the USA in Red Alert 2. Good Times
I liked this episode, mostly because it relied on continuity and the bad guy is... well, correct in his assessments. Voyager would be rightly called a villain by a whole lot of peoples in the delta quadrant, and frankly i'm surprised more didn't try and hunt them down. Janeway couldn't have known the danger posed by S8472 before she allied with the borg.
re: the warp engines and stuff -- it makes sense if there's a bit of convergent evolution of warp travel -- it's happened many times in history where different inventors have had similar designs, in spite of never knowing about the other. my own explanation was 'our engines look quite similar... let's make it happen' -- and the rest kind of fits into place. is it lazy writing? a little. does it make sense? yes. So... fine. Plot convenience, away!
When i first saw this episode i liked it. But i changed my mind after a rewatch. You can say i like both parts of this episode, Arturis tricking the crew and him accusing Janeway, but they should have been a full episode each.
There was so much potential in Janeway getting confronted with previous actions, but this part is too short for me in the episode. It felt like they needed a motivation for their villain and they found a good one circling back to the start of the season, but it was wasted for this short time.
This isn't even mentioned in the next episode "Night", even though it's about Janeway regretting her decision(s).
And Arturis getting surrounded by the Borg cubes should have been the last shot of the episode. Instead we see Voyager even profits from this encounter by getting closer to home.
Which leads into the whole "why did they never use the slipstream again"-discussion. Yes i know - "Timeless", one of my favourite Voyager-episodes ... but the explanation is stupid. They could have used the slipstream for shorter amounds of time, repair any damage and repeat as long as necessary.
Oof you're like..... Being rational and shit
@@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 😅 sometimes i can't help myself - especially when it comes to discussing Voyager ...
TBH, few-shot learning with LLMs suggests that language can actually work that way.
So the Borg assimilated slipstream technology. That means the Borg don't need those transwarp conduits that Voyager destroyed in their big moment of victory at the end, right?
The episode was entertaining but when you have the reveal it falls apart. The message was a gigantic heavily encrypted but also maybe corrupted file. Janeway finally cracks it after Arturis supposedly does.
1. Okay, I'll ignore Janeway continuing to work on a problem after it is solved (as far as she knew). Fine, it set up the reveal but that's also something that fairly toxic people do - not trusting someone else's work and being convinced you can do it better.
2. Why was that message encrypted? We can't get you home right now but we'll keep working on it. Even if someone would argue it's to keep it from being revealed to the crew - they're going to know that there's no plan to get home yet. If it was to a ship that Starfleet doesn't want stolen by anyone that intercepts the message I can understand why it would be encrypted but not the message that it turned out to be. I don't send a coded message to my parents saying that I'm okay. I'll send them encrypted files about my investments or something like that.
Imo it makes sense for it to be encrypted
"There is a ship with absolutely no backup around here" isn't the sort of thing you want random hostile groups to know
I'd always wanted Dukat to ask to be assimilated.
There were so many instances of the bots not liking the video that I feel you should replace the word borg with youtube.
Kind of BS to pretend that the Borg don't have a choice. Individual drones might not, but the collective hivemind for sure is making decisions, it's not a mindless force of nature. The only reason Arturis wants to punish Voyager is because he can't punish the Borg and he's rationalising this choice.
Also...Species 8472 did threaten universal annihilation in Scorpion, so how exactly was Janeway in the wrong here?
Janeway is by far the worst captain in the entire Star Trek universe
Tbf we have Berman to thank for that
Ironically, this episode would probably have worked better as a two-parter, with the extra room to breathe. Wouldn't have been as well written, though, so I suppose it makes not much difference.
I tend to think Arturis was a senior intelligence officer, or maybe a senior diplomat, before the fall of his homeworld. He has the skills of either, and either would be easily conducive to developing the kind of contacts that would make all this possible without access to any government's resources.
Psycho Janeway is best Janeway.