How Bad Therapy Can Harm a Generation (ft. Abigail Shrier)
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If the story of humanity is about loss, privation, suffering, and resilience, why are kids having nervous breakdowns about bad grades?
In today’s episode, I talked to Abigail Shrier about what parents and mental health experts are inadvertently doing to rob young people of the resilience and grit that past generations had.
It’s a spicy one. Enjoy.
Abigail Shrier received the Barbara Olson Award for Excellence and Independence in Journalism in 2021. Her best-selling book, Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters (2020), was named a “Best Book” by The Economist and the Times (of London). It has been translated into ten languages.
She holds an A.B. from Columbia College, where she received the Euretta J. Kellett Fellowship; a B.Phil. from the University of Oxford; and a J.D. from Yale Law School.
www.abigailshrier.com/
www.amazon.com/Bad-Therapy-Ki...
www.amazon.com/Irreversible-D...
www.thetruthfairy.info/
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Lot of interesting and valid pushback in the comments. I should note that while I don't have the same amount of conviction as Abigail, I do find her perspective compelling and important to consider. It's a unique take on the mental health crisis and much of what she talks about in her book I find to be both deeply concerning and important. Even if you disagree, I hope it at least gets you to think about things in a new way.
Only speaking for myselft, but I think I'd have been much more intellectually honest to state that the guest is a journalist, and not a psychiatrist. For example I could talk to you about rockets, and some of these things might even be true, but would it have the same value as listening an actual rocket scientist ? I don't think so. So everybody has the right to their opinion, but context is important imo.
I think the biggest shock to me is how casually and abruptly you brought up the statements she made around Trans people. And how quick you were to laugh about it and end the episode. It makes it very unclear if you think what she said was okay.
your words do not align with what happened in the podacst. You barely spoke to you not sharing the conviction or raisng any debate. You basically agreed with everything and even supported the arguments with examples. I was hoping for a balanced review but it was anything but. I think trhis should have been a discussion with someone with proficiency in the field.
Way to many fucks given here, Mark.
why is the video so choppy and edited so much?
Older Gen Z aren’t living with parents because they’re lazy or content to do so, it’s because the job market is getting more competitive amongst a skyrocketing cost of living. We’re not giving up on adulting, it’s just that now we’re given crumbs for doing work that should be able to buy us a small home/build up savings. We’re not anxious because we’re only fragile, we’re anxious because the economic landscape looks bleak. We could talk about the impacts of learned helplessness, I think that’s a good aspect of mental health to explore, but there’s absolutely reasons to be worried for our future.
There where more jobs and high paying open during the pandemic than ever before. The trades are paying so much money right now because they fill the demands for the jobs! So bullshit, Gen Z is entitled and wants to play video games in mom's basement.
Spot on!
What's your major? Just asking...
41:15
It's not impossible and it's not like we've never been in a bad economy before.
Honestly as someone who’s done too much therapy, it feels so fucking relieving to remember what resilience feels like. Sometimes when you tell yourself “get over it” you literally start looking for WAYS to get over it. Not that you’re bypassing or ignoring feelings, more so that the feelings indicated a PROBLEM and the whole point is to SOLVE it. This is gold and needed to be said. Thank you Abigail and Mark.
I think a Buddhist approach is so useful in this. Examine the event in your mind, examine and acknowledge your feelings and then let them go.
I was on board when the conversation was "language about experiences matter." The longer the conversation goes it turns out to be "my generation didn't have X and we're fine". This is why long form podcast are important, the BS get brought to light.
Same! I was fully on board for the first 15 min. It slowly devolved into a hack job.
Ive seen her other interviews, and the more she had time to explain, the lesser I found it helpful.
I made it till minute 9. Talking about resilience comes from sucking it up and keep studying. Guess what? Did many decades of that and all it did is turn that into a coping mechanism (workaholism).
I learned that resilience comes from understanding how you feel and still find the support need to keep going on with life. You can't find support if you think everything is fine 🙄
@cristina14k nailed it. Same.
In my case, I think lack of structure, safety led to a need for some kind of larger winning solution that turns out school and money and work don't provide. From student debt to workaholism they feed off each other nicely. Letting go of certainty and limiting beliefs and leaning into emotional authenticity and connection with safe people has been the scariest, hardest work to show up for.
@cristina14k I haven't finished yet but that's not at all what I got from the discussion. What I got was everything in moderation.
You can't just fully ignore it but you can't completely embrace it either.
You can find at least one study to support any idea, which is why meta-analyses and survey studies are essential. She tends to overstate and assert her ideas excessively. A legitimate researcher would be exceedingly cautious not to overshoot.
Agreed. A big red flag for credibility is when a person makes a bold statement and follows that up with a single study that validates a point that they appear personally invested in. This is a really popular thing on youtube. Not excluding alternative or conflicting evidence and using cautionary language goes a long way to making yourself more credible, but also appearing that way.
Is she a researcher or a best-selling book writer?
In order to write most all books, one most be a researcher
@@JaysonT1 That doesn’t mean the research is credible. This is simply a platform for her to sell more books.
She’s a self proclaimed Trumpian shill. Why anyone listens to her for any serious perspective is beyond me.
My little sister started having a tutor come to the house to help her with her homework. My sister is 12 (11 when tutoring started). Very quickly I saw things deteriorate. Her grades started suffering even more, F's in most classes. I started to realize that the tutor was acting as a "therapist" to my sister and had labeled her with all sorts of "diagnosis" like ADHD, ADD, anxiety etc. And they had started to make "safe words" for when my sister was going into a "panic attack". As soon as I saw the tutor saying those things to my sister I saw my sister parroting those ideas and using it as an excuse as to why she couldn't focus on her homework or couldn't do this or that. I immediately pushed back against it, told my parents what was happening and we got rid of the tutor. The problem wasn't "tutoring". The problem was this girl was trying to act as a "therapist" to my little sister - who doesn't need therapy! She was perfectly healthy and fine before and the behavioral issues only started once she was being coddled and told she had all these problems. I'm so glad I caught on quick enough and we were able to help my sister (she only had the tutor for about three months but the change in my sister in those three months was insane).
My children have had so much authentic trauma. Watching their stepfather/father almost murder their mother, being abused by their stepfather, temporary poverty and my two youngest daughters losing their father (our abuser) to suicide in 2021.
My youngest daughters were in therapy from 2yrs/4 yrs old-8/10yrs old (when their father died and I no longer had to follow a court order (father using therapy to attempt to prove I was the abuser though he was). Therapy didn’t help them, it did lead to slight alienation from me and me not being able to parent intuitively, feeling like I had to plan every single move out, I could no longer parent authentically.
After their father’s death I did focus a lot on their trauma, stopping what we were doing to ask how they were feeling, several times a day, asking them to share memories of their father, excusing any behavioral issues as being trauma based. My girls were a wreck. Then I had the revelation that my older children had gone through more abuse and fear than my younger daughters and never went to therapy and never had anyone create a “trauma identity” for them and they were all thriving and always were, even through being abused and living in fear. No issues whatsoever. So I changed things up, I told my girls they would not be going to bereavement therapy after all, that I was sorry they had to go through so much but they were on the other side now and although they loved their father, he caused pain for them, their siblings, and I and now we could be free and have a happy life that we created vs living always worried about what their father would do next. I did tell them “you’ll live and you’ll be better for this in the end, just wait and see.” I stopped bringing up their father and their feelings and instead just listen when they bring him up, which isn’t often.
Within 6 months they started to smile, laugh, feel joy, the behavioral issues all cleared up, and they started to live again. Oh and we homeschool which I also think plays a huge role in their healing, removing them from a system that is predatory towards their trauma background.
They’re 13 and almost 12 now and when compared against their peers that still live in the “trauma/therapy paradigm” they seem a thousand more times more resilient, happier, and healthier despite going through such extreme adverse events. Their pain is still validated when they bring any up, but I quickly help them to reframe it as a growth opportunity (can’t have a beautiful garden without the rain).
It is truly miraculous what that shift in my parenting has done to helping these kids heal and grow rather than continue to live in pain with trauma as their core identity.
I really don't think we should ever compare gen z with emotionally stunted older generations, on the whole, and the chronic illnesses and vices that come with holding emotions down. I'm saying this as part of the older generations. We were never perfect and shouldn't be an example of how to function in society.
This right here! Thanks for your clarity of conscience.
This is also why a think boomers, etc, seem like kids with their phones all around (and not solely because it's new tech for them).
My experience: now that my dad is retired, the consequence of living his whole life holding emotions down/not being able to connect with them (plus doing a shit job he never liked to do, not pursuing his career dreams) is that when I'm hanging out with him it's like he's the kid glued to his cell phone while I'm the one (30 yo) admiring natures beauty and experiencing present moment.
It feels like I'm all by myself because he can't do otherwise, and I know that, it's a defense mechanism for him to keep avoiding being in contact with his own emotions as he has learnt to do so. Sometimes it's cruelly frustrating for me to see that crystal clear and not being able to do anything once he gets super defensive when I try to talk to him about that or about how it makes me feel like I'm not worthy at all.
@@pedrosoares2253Absolutely! When I was a teen, I was addicted to my phone and videogames, and my dad would get very loud and rude about that. I know that my dad has had social anxiety for the most of his life, and now he's always on his phone, rarely talking to anybody in real life, while I've developed a very healthy balance with my screen time and learnt how to manage my social anxiety. Why? Because I took the time to acknowledge my traumas, process them and move on - this is what resilience is built upon. This cleans your mental and emotional space and allows you to build something on the new, stable foundation. But if you keep trying to suck it up, you carry unnecessary loads, and life throws other things at you that you don't know how to deal with, and then it keeps piling up, and your spine just breaks.
Of course, therapists should also be focused on providing a patient with a solution, not just encouraging them to whine endlessly and never move on to healing.
This right here is exceptional honesty. Thank you for posting this. Many people will see their "normal" as the best way. To admit that our predecessors generation (millennial here) had its own warts in terms of ways of living and raising kids and where priorities were placed is saying what many of us have seen but are afraid to point out with our own parents who believe in what they know. My parents are wildly out of touch with their emotions and so much has been suppressed (to theirs and our own detriment as their children) that you can't possibly tell me that the "neglect your emotions and toughen up" approach was healthy. Under that rule of thumb nothing is addressed, resolved or processed. It's the same frustrating cycle of petty surface arguments covering for deeper unaddressed problems and emotional disconnect every day with them, and its heart breaking to think they'll likely pass away without ever having worked out any of it.
This is where we're trying to improve from our parents. The hard part is handling the scrutiny that comes with exploring our vulnerability and emotions more than the previous generations did.
In looking back, I now believe that we began to consider people long ago to be emotionally stunted only because we spoiled kids, rendering them helpless, and also because a lot of psychologists were graduating at the same time, and they all needed people with emotional problems to treat, so there was a push to inform the society that anyone who wasn't emotionally explosive was mentally disturbed. Young people nowadays are balls of explosive emotion about everything. I most notice it at work. My ancestors understood that life is not one constant, endless fun day at the fair, and that everything should not require amusement, entertainment, or a soft, gentle approach, nor should one be depressed or weepy when life is not a bowl of fun. There are things to be done in life, and they should be done.
I don't know what the solution is, but I read a book some time back in which the writer explained that we are living in a society in which parents are treating children as if they all had disabilities (whether they do or not), and many of them eventually get labeled disabled because they have been "groomed" to feel disabled, instead of being taught how to be strong, have integrity, etc. 🤷
@@pedrosoares2253Your dad probably did the s*** job that he never liked to do to support you and his family. We didn't have the option back then to " follow our dreams".We were busy working hard and didn't have time to sit around and play video games. Many of us were working as teenagers and we just sucked it up. Kids today don't suck it up. Every generation has it hard. I know that it's hard now with the economy being so insane, but a bunch of kids living at home as adults don't help it to get any better. When I was 40 and my kids had moved out, is when I could focus on my dreams.
“My biggest regret was that I tried to be his friend, instead of his dad.” -Ric Flair on his son’s death by drug overdose
Sadly, many strict (also religious) parents have kids who are addicted too. It’s not always the parents’ fault.
@@MNP208 was Ric Flair himself strict and religious? No? So what's your point?
@@DomFortress u mad bro 👁👄👁
@@DomFortresshe is trying to make conversation jeez chill out
@@Feronom were you "chill" when you tried to assumed that I somehow wasn't? Fuck you.
As a psychiatrist, I never slap a label on someone without having an endgame. Borderline PD used to be highly stigmatized but young people these days are begging me to call them personality disordered because it feels validating to them.
I validate them as much as possible, but then I ask, "Well, what now? What are you going to do with all this validation?" I put it to them that the endgoal is not about some subjective good feeling but a sustainable and meaningful change in how they interact with their environment. Most therapist wrongly believe that making their patients feel less miserable is going to somehow translate into real-world resilience. In my experience, this is rarely the case. They still need to learn skills and put them into use.
People still need to practice, take risks, get hurt, and reflect on their experiences to facilitate growth. The enemy of good is perfect (Dr. Mike said this). Life isn't perfect, you just need it to be good enough. Go out there and stumble and fall like everyone else did. I always tell my patients to come back and tell me their struggles but I always encourage them to keep struggling.
What if they have lied? If you’re told lies by your client and you say what now? I believe that’s when patients believe their lies. They hear what now, and leave good but challenging jobs, not talk to their parents, and divorce and break up families.
I don’t pretend to know the answers to this, but this biggest issue in therapy is the truthfulness of your patient.
@@grantmoon624 Well, think about it this way: Patients are not under any obligation to tell me or their therapist the absolute truth or anything they don't want to share.
Patients can, and should be allowed to keep secrets. It is vital for them to feel safe. Imagine how terrifying it is to see a psychiatrist who can read minds; you'd feel utterly naked in front of them.
I encourage my patients to keep secrets (or lie) if that will help them feel safe. What matters is why and what I can do for them. After all, I'm not interrogating them, I'm just trying to help.
Patients will only disclose information they feel helps further their agenda, which should be the primary focus. My agenda, or the therapist's agenda, should usually (but not always) take a back seat unless there are very unique circumstances (i.e. when the patient has suicidal thoughts or thoughts of harming others).
With time, patience, and honesty, all patients eventually come clean with their therapists. But they can't do it without knowing they can always keep secrets when needed.
@@soonny002 Indeed, patients only disclose what furthers their agenda, (honest or not) and that’s all that matters unless they are breaking the law and or are suicidal. I think this is my point, and this is what I believe is the biggest problem with therapy.
A mind reader that would know every fleeting thought would indeed be terrible. However, right now in therapy we have the opposite and nearly equally terrifying, a smiling nodding validation machine eager to further any legal non harming or non suicidal agenda. I fear too many ills can come about from having such a low bar for intervention
@@grantmoon624 I doubt that is what therapists are doing, don't believe everything you read online... and intervention won't work anyway if the patient does not intend to engage.
But I agree that it is important to challenge patients, but not in the way that is invalidating. I rarely disagree with my patient's experience, but I always challenge them by asking "how are you going to use that to your benefit?".
It is okay to hold a belief about oneself that others don't share. We live in a world of diverse opinions, after all. But it is NOT okay to allow our beliefs to disempower us.
If a patient wishes to believe they are always anxious and powerless, I will ask if believing in that helps them achieve their goals. Their answers are very illuminating.
Therapy ought to be a kind and gentle way of confronting oneself. Although patients might respond initially to 'tough love', but its effects are short-lived. Ultimately, they need to develop a purpose for themselves to keep fighting in the long-run. They are more likely to find that with a therapist who has a softer touch.
@soonny002 you sound like a terrific psychiatrist. Keep fighting the good fight, thanks for all you do for the people you work with and society as a whole
As a long time Mark Manson fan, I think this episode suffered from too much same-side debate. Abigail was speaking in absolutisms and painting destructive stereotypes that can easily be used by older generations to continue to chastise Gen-Z. I wish Mark would have pushed back a bit more to round out these topics, which are far more complex than what Abigail presents.
This
Agreed - some good faith pushback would have allowed for a much more interesting conversation.
Mark was a little too easy-going here, I agree. Taking the "haha yeah, f*** them kids" route with her was easy to do but he could've been more skeptical and hit back with some alternative suggestions.
I get being grateful for the guest's presence but challenging them on their message if it's a bit cut and dry should be fair game on his show.
I agree
Absolutely.
I don't agree with all of this.
But "feeling better doesn't mean you're changing", oh man. THIS.
I have people in my life where I see this on a cycle. They think what they're doing (whether it's therapy or spiritual bypassing or whatever), is fixing them. When it's just a temporary feeling better.
Changing takes effort, and practice.
Love to hear that spoken out loud.
100% agree with her. My 11 yr old daughter said something minor in the classroom (like someone taking her pencil or something) gave her PTSD! We had a chat after that! You’re always going to be able to label a teen with anxiety or depression at some point. I try to teach my kids that life is going to suck sometimes but you’ll get through it then tell them to go outside and play, which they do, Kids and adults are definitely lacking resilience nowadays, labeling life’s normal emotions, and being overprescribed medications. The pharmaceutical companies have it made right now. What we are creating in kids is incredibly sad. I have also heard teens mention PTSD which keeps them stuck in a victim mentality. Why more people don’t think like this lady is beyond me! Completely spot on!
This is very disappointing to listen to. Some of the topics discussed are important topics (for example: self-diagnoses, identification with mental pathology), more so than ever thanks to social media. However, some of the opinions here are presented with such high levels of self-confidence, while at the same time oozing smugness and condescension. It is hurtful to see complex topics that need nuanced discussion be discussed so reductionistic, just sad.
“Why is the generation that received the most support for mental health, so unhappy?” - Good question. Why did they have to receive the mental health support in the first place? Are there possible other reasons for them being unhappy, other than them receiving mental health support? Could the rapid inflation and the explosion of the costs for living space without a catch up of wages be a contributing factor?
This is a classic problem of correlation does not equal causation. Millenials and Gen Z also had the greatest number of cars driving on streets during their lifetime. Does this mean cars cause unhappiness? See how silly this is?
“Why don’t they come to work on time? Why don’t they want to grow up? Why aren’t they moving out from home? Why aren’t they thriving?” Also, all great questions, which “too much therapy” or “too much therapeutic concepts or language” are not a sufficient answer to. These are complex questions with multi-variate answers.
“They have no life experience” and “They are not combat vets” - I am sorry, but this is a take that you have based on what? Many children go through terrible hardships. And excuse me, but if you actually do care about the scientific perspective on this, read up on ‘adverse childhood events’. You might notice that they are one of the biggest predictors of mental challenges later down the line. So no, it is not as simple as kids being taught to focus too much on trauma, sometimes it is rather kids living through too much fucking traumatic events.
The introduction of SEL is followed up with (a rather condescendingly sounding) “It doesn’t work”. I would advise to go a bit deeper into the research and to present what is being found out with the nuance it deserves. Otherwise, this sounds like clinging to a belief and cherry-picking research that backs it up. The meta-analyses of SEL show that several improvements can be achieved with the program. AT BEST the science isn’t conclusive; nowhere does it conclusively say that it’s clearly leading to children being sadder.
And this part drives really upsets me: After Mark lists some of the potential positive outcomes listed in the SEL meta-analysis, he adds something along the lines of “They make the remark, that the program has to be well-implemented” - implying that since SEL might not help if it is implemented poorly, we can chug the idea of teaching children emotional regulation out the window alltoghether?. The SEL protocol needs to be well-implemented. No Shit Mark, this does not need the sarcasm added to it. Yes, everything you preach in your books and your podcasts and your videos, as well as every other successful program on the plant need to be well implemented to achieve the desired effect. You can take the most amazing boxing plan and have it lead to shit, if the boxing trainer implementing it doesn’t do it well. Same goes for any diet, meditation regimen, art course, therapy manual or heart transplant protocol. This does invalidate the concept, but rather emphasizes a need for good quality control.
“Teachers are quitting because high school kids are throwing tantrums” - and because they are being severely underpaid in many states? Or maybe also because the class sizes are too big per teacher? Or maybe because school shootings have become such a common problem in the States that they have drills for it on a regular basis? Could it possibly be that there are more issues at hand than just therapeutic concepts entering schools and parenting? Any chance for nuance, please?
POSTTRAUMATIC GROWTH - The research on this subject is NOT CONCLUSIVE. There are people who can grow from trauma and more research is needed on they do it, but for the love of Christ, please do not romanticize trauma. I will repeat it again: The research is inconclusive for fuck’s sake. Children cannot just ‘shake off’ adverse childhood events, let alone trauma on their own in most cases without any consequences. Do all of them need therapy? No. Do therapeutic concepts in culture and in parenting necessarily lead to them identifying with the trauma and being worse for it? Fuck no. The adverse events themselves, and even more so the trauma itself does more damage. NUANCE. (Not to mention the selection bias. More people who had posttraumatic growth survived long enough to be selected. Many people who succumbed to their trauma didn’t have the chance to speak up)
“Authoritative Parenting” is best - Yes, indeed it seems to be according to scientific consensus. However, how many parents pull it off? A significant number of parents do not and would actually profit from learning more about it, even at the cost of learning some psychological terms.
“Their (therapists) role has become too big” - Yes, to some degree I agree. And some therapists are really shit at their job. I’m the first to admit it, and I’m a therapist myself. I might even be shit. However, as with everything: Nuance. Have you asked yourself why the concept of “the therapist” has become so big in the first place? I have worked with adults of almost all ages - from 18 to 80. They often come into the first session and hunger for being seen so much, that they weep and tell me things they’ve sometimes told nobody else before. If you get neglected, punished, or abused by your parents (or other support figures in your life) to such a degree, then yes, the person who has to be paid money to at least partially give you what you yearn for (somebody who understands, listens and holds that pain with you), will get somewhat of an authority in our culture. Believe me, I’d rather not have it if there was an alternative. That pain can be incredibly difficult to witness sometimes. I’m not saying that’s all there is to it, but again, reductionistic hypotheses do not help anyone.
Perfect example of survivorship bias by the way: “We love people who are whacky” … “My father called my Ugly, but a loving and playful way” … “But he always made me feel beautiful”. Many kids didn’t have that. Sorry to be the party pooper here, but this applies not only to Millenials and GenZ, but also older generations that I have worked with. Some of them lived through some fucking rough shit and there was no love underlying it.
Mark says at some point “What right does anyone (referencing therapists) have to tell you…?”. I totally agree Mark, which is why in the licensing process we get taught to not just tell people shit like “You have to set boundaries”, “This is abuse” or “You are traumatized”. If a therapist does this, he most likely was not taught to do it, but just freestyles some stupid shit. Same as General Practitioners who just willy nilly prescribe antidepressants without a clear indication or tranquilizers for anxiety disorders even though research mostly points towards them not helping in the long run or even being counterproductive. There are people who do not do a great job in most professions. That doesn’t mean that therapy ruined a generation of people.
"We need to stop trying to make things happy, and instead try to make them strong" - Depending on what literature you ask, children have several basic needs. (1) Yearning for connection and bonding (2) Yearning for autonomy and independence (3) Yearning for competence (4) Yearning for boundaries and self-regulation (4) Yearning for a freedom of expression - for example of needs and feelings and (5) Yearning for spontaneity and play. We need to help children with all of these. Get them stronger yes, AND the others too. Nuance.
I will not get into the tirade about ADHD completely, but again: It’s not so simple. If a child has actual, thoroughly diagnosed ADHD, then it is one of the biggest risk factors for most other mental disorders, many social problems, substance abuse and even early death. Telling someone “You should learn to live with it now, because you’ll have it for the rest of your life” is a great idea, if the child being told that has a great support system and loving and resilient parents. If not, then it might turn out okay and might turn out really not okay. You made it Mark and that really, truly is great. I’m happy for you. Many kids don’t have that kind of luck, they just don’t have a podcast that millions of people listen to, to tell the tale.
"Depression makes you more introspective and observant and assuming the worst about things." Yes, and also lose appetite, lose the ability to sleep for healthy regeneration, feel completely hopeless about the future and it tends to bring with it suicidal thoughts and sometimes actions.
"People with schizophrenia imagine things and make discoveries that other people wouldn't consider." Yes, and they also suffer immensely from symptoms of paranoia or hearing voices that torment them with horrible messages for weeks and months, sometimes years or decades on end. Please don’t just present the “potentially functional aspects” of these conditions without mentioning that they also come with horrendously debilitating aspects, many times.
"9 times out of 10, it's somebody who genuinely thinks they're doing a lot of good and that they're helping a lot of people, but who are not looking at the second order effects." This is a very fitting quote for this conversation.
"I love it, zero fucks given." - A perfect summary of what went wrong here.
My take: There are many important conversations we need to have about topics mentioned here. Identification with diagnoses is an issue. Self-diagnosis is an issue. Diagnostic categories in general don’t always hold up under scrutiny. Medication does tend to be overprescribed and is taken as first approach too often, despite some of the hypotheses underlying them not being proven. Psychopathological language can be over-represented to some degree. Media use and social media in general are problems that we need solutions for. All of these are important, yes. Nuance is also important. And the way the topics are handled here, in my personal opinion does not ad anything of value, but rather just restates “put yourself up by your bootstraps” in more fun and quirky presentation.
I’m sorry if this comes off too aggressive, but I work in the field of clinical psychology for ten years at this point and these topics are so not black and white in real life. It just frustrates me a lot to seem them being reduced like this.
I think a nuanced discussion is always going to be hard when you only have 1 hour or so for a topic that needs 5-6 hours at absolute minimum, I do have another question to add to yours though.
This is not the worst economy children/ adolescents/ young adults have had to go through and it’s not the worst inequality either so why has it impacted the generation so much more?
(I have no idea what the answer is)
I agree that kids need a stable home and parents who know what they're doing. But some of the stuff she said was way off, like thinking kids who get bullied just get over it with no issues, or that talking about bad stuff is bad. Ignoring problems doesn’t make them go away; they just end up buried in your mind. When she talked about her dad calling her ugly, it clicked for me. People who had to toughen up as kids sometimes feel jealous seeing others treated better and think everyone should have it as hard as they did. And it’s totally wrong to say it's bad for parents to ask their kids how they feel. Sure, there’s such a thing as too much therapy, but checking in on your kid’s feelings is basic parenting.
Really good catch. I got the impression as well that there was personal motivation behind her message. A lot of people unconsciously have this impression that what's familiar to them from their own experience is what's correct or normal. And in this case a supportive environment is in her perception one where weakness is bred. And her home environment (where she was taught to toughen up in the face of a poor joke), that weakness wasn't tolerated. So her level of tolerance for parents who take a softer or more attentive approach is naturally going to be minimal.
The problem with that is it impedes her ability to approach this topic objectively.
I think her point was: there is a difference between kids sometimes being mean and unpleasant each other, and even intimidating now and then - or even getting into fights - and someone being subjected to an actual campaign of bullying. And kids need to be encouraged to understand the difference, and deal with the first.
She did not say “it's wrong to ask kids how they feel” . This is really not an honest summary at all. She said that constantly doing this, as a habitual childrearing technique, is unhelpful, even detrimental.
She gave the example of the child on the plane who was not once told to consider the other passengers and just behave, but instead was constantly placated and wheedled to monitor her own “feelings”.
The point the interviewee is making that this as a habit in fact convinces kids that everything that happens is to be assessed in terms of their own *feelings* (good or bad) : as opposed to considering the facts, the reality of a situation - how it affects other people, understanding societal rules, functioning effectively, being accepted and respected in society.
As one of half a dozen kids raised by very young (and what would now be called liberal or permissive) parents who had not much parenting in their own background - I and my siblings would never have dreamed of acting out on public transport or restaurants. (Not that we ate out more than once in a year.) Not after the “terrible twos”, when children are wrestling with the ability to self-regulate.
What she is saying is that children have to learn that there are times when how you feel about a situation is not germane. You have to just endure it. You can be bored, you can be tired (and you can try to negotiate some respite) but former generations knew that creating a scene was just not going to change anything: the grocery shopping had to be done, the train journey finished, the old shoes worn another few weeks or whatever. The older a child gets without learning that the world carries on however you *feel* about it, the harder a struggle is to self-regulate.
Wow! I couldn't continue watching her so I didn't hear that part. That would explain the chip on her shoulder. That's really sad.
@@eh1702 These are some good points. I can definitely see that effort to learn emotional intelligence and self appraisal is part of larger set of considerate communication and collaboration. The end goal is not to be wholly self-absorbed, but to learn how to face the day and function in it.
the kids are just reflecting back the current state of society. “Fixing” their behavior won’t solve the real problems we’re ALL facing-the kids aren’t the problem…
I completely agree. Couldn't have said it better myself!
Complete crap. Two completely different issues. If you were correct then ALL would the same because they all live in the same society. Kids who have raised correctly are installed with the tools that serve them and society, kids poorly raise are not. TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY.
@@JaysonT1 Not every kid is going to be exactly the same, obviously. But when something becomes a pattern, then it makes sense that it's something to do with society at large. Parents are just a small element in all of this. Ultimately they have very little to no control over who their child becomes. Other things that matter a lot more is who their friends are, the society they live in and, of course, their personal nature. That's not to say there's no difference between good and bad parenting, but I can assure you there are great people out there who had shitty parents, and the other way around too.
@@JaysonT1 she said its a western problem and immigrants had better childeren than white people. And later after a generation or two, the childeren naturally adapt to the ideas and therefor problems of society, so yeah its a societal problem.
@IAM_MrMarkManson oldest scam in the book
I nearly died in a hit-and-run two years ago, I did not receive adequate care at all, not in hospital (they left me lying in my own excrement), not from my family (my mother constantly screamed and threatened violence), and not from therapists (they never discussed the accident, one wanted to diagnose me with ADHD for no reason, the other wanted to blame my problems on being a bad daughter).
Two years later, I am grateful for all the pain, I have become the white female David Goggins. I feel stronger, wiser, more resilient and independent than ever before. I fear nothing anymore, I'm bullet proof.
Meanwhile a mate of mine who has regular therapy is going through a mental breakdown just because a girl he had a crush on rejected him. He now calls her his abuser. She never hurt him, she was just mean and flakey.
Do you even realise how insane you sound?
I don't think you sound insane at all, although your friend in therapy is being rather ridiculous. I had a very serious illness that almost killed me and was also in a bad car accident right before it, in fact the undiagnosed illness cause the car accident. The whole thing was quite traumatic and I struggled with the after effects and anger and hurt of massive medical negligence for about three years afterwards, but I worked on it quietly by myself and by the fourth year I was fine and back to thriving. Like you I'm stronger for it and I didn't require therapy. I actually was forced to see a therapist for a few months and I lied my way through it because I knew if I told them how hurt and sad I was about it all they would pathologise the crap out of me and I what I wanted and needed was time to sit with it quietly and find ways to move on.
@@AthelstanMercia see, you get it. You have the right attitude. We have the strength we need within us, we just need some self awareness.
@@CourtneyCoulsonabsolutely! Therapy should be empowering. It is usually not. When your tribe (or the so-called experts) show you they can’t help you, then you find another way, one that works for you….and that doesn’t entail giving up your autonomy or having to agree with another person 100% - sounds too much like a cult.
Perhaps your friend is being ridiculous. But maybe there’s deeper stuff that that experience brought to the surface that he’s having to grapple with. I know from experience to not judge why someone feels the way they do. There have been things I’ve been through, like my father dying, going hungry for weeks, being beaten by my mother, etc. that didn’t affect me, but would rightly affect most people. And there have been things, like getting an A- that wouldn’t affect most people, but greatly affected me. We never know the implications of things for individuals. I am very sorry you experienced such egregious neglect by others. Therapy should be just one tool for healing/growth. Sometimes you need a screwdriver to begin a project but later need a hammer. Sometimes you don’t need a screwdriver at all, just a saw. Every individual and situation is different.
While the speaker makes some valid points her sweeping indictments and gross generalizations are off putting. She comes off as a bit of a know it all.
👏👏👏 she seems like she could use therapy 😅 (j/k) but yeah. In all seriousness she comes off as a reactive dinner guest, not a professional sharing insights on their research
Maybe cause she does and she shouldn’t apologize for affirming that too many therapists are just concerned about the patient building their pensions
It needed to be said. Most patients don’t get better….maybe rethink the mental health industry tactics.
Very compelling discussion. I have gone to different therapists and psychologists over the years. I can attest that focusing on the personal power we possess brings about change (in contrast to focusing on what is out of our control which keeps things the same).
Everyone can say that some type of negative experiences are "not a big deal" but when it's not too evident and still, you can feel it in your body and it stops you from having normal relationships I think it should be treated.
The issue is, why were previous generations not feeling it in their bodies, and having healthier relationships after dealing with the same, or worse things, than this generation, with more intervention?
There's a good amount that I agree with here, and a lot that I disagree with. But what truly bothers me about this video is 1. that she has no expertise in the field that she's talking about, and 2. she uses little nuance and is overly confident in her points that, again, are out of her area of expertise. I'm not saying that she's not allowed to have opinions about this or share them, but there is nuance to almost everything and she doesn't seem to be aware of the nuance in this issue.
most of her points are self-evident, can you point to some of the nuance she is missing?
@@SonoftheWest316 I'd like to hear more about the missing nuance, also. @RepDanCrenshaw @StateDept @JoeBiden @CanadianPM @unitednations
I guess you're a genz kid as well. I agree with almost everything she said in the podcast. People are too insensitive these days and over pathologizing everything. I've experience it all first hand. People are losing their self confidence and sense of self judgement and using therapy words EVERYWHERE making them and their relationships weaker. Problems have existed in every generation but people have become way too sensitive in this generation. Granted older generations were lacking in some aspects as well but too much of everything is not good. Btw, she's B.Phil from Columbia, Oxford, and Yale. I'm pretty sure she knows her stuff.
@@whitewalker608 I'm actually a (late) millennial, so I don't have first hand experience with Gen Z in school. That wasn't my criticism, though. Even if it is how you say, she is not anywhere close to an expert in the field, and I would not trust her evaluation of therapy being negative for most people, especially. And I don't care that she has an unrelated degree from a fancy school, I care whether she has a graduate degree in a directly related field and/or extensive experience related to therapy. She does not have that.
You get more of what you focus on. Don't focus on the fall. Focus on getting up. Don't focus on the weeds, focus on the flowers. And if a weed won't leave you alone, pull it out.
💯
If you genuinely believe that Gen-Z is a weaker generation than other generations, then start asking what older generations have done with society and with their own parenting to screw things up. From the economy (wealth gap), the invention of video games, social media, and other diversions, climate change, the parenting practices implemented, and others: these are ALL SOLELY the responsibility of the older generations. Gen-Z wasn't even alive to play a part in it. This is yet another thing that Gen-Z needs to be smart enough and strong enough to be able to clean up from the generations that came before. It's not their fault, but it is their problem. That "weak" generation has to clean up the entire mess left to them. I don't envy them.
EXACTLY.
Bruh, the previous generations lifted the western world out of the aftermath of two world wars and lived through the Cold War… it’s always the responsibility of the next generations to fix the mistakes of previous generations. Also life in general and living standard of my generation (millennials) and gen z is way better than our grandparents. I come from a country where we have to serve in the military and honestly judging with my life experience, a lot of American kids and my contemporaries are too fragile and spoiled.
I'm pretty sure they were trying to explain why Gen-Z might be weaker, and how we can solve the problem, not blaming them for it... They brought up many of the reasons you list as being potential causes; they discussed how the soft/surveillance parenting is a problem, that social media is a problem, how talking too much about climate change can be a problem...
She said in the beginning, we made them that way
If you think this way and embrace blaming instead of being proactive then we will have to demonize a dozen generations and go back to some authoritarian or religious control.
Gen-z will have kids. Who do their kids blame? Who do the boomers blame? Who do the industrialists or the luddites blame? There is no beginning.
Do your best not to make the same mistakes as those who came before you. They were busy blaming people too.
Honestly, I am having trouble getting through this video. Whenever I hear things I don’t fully agree with, I like “trying them on” you could say. It is almost impossible here, simply because this woman is so so so dismissive of the fact that PEOPLE ARE FUCKING DIFFERENT! I was bullied as a kid, I did not get therapy. I was told to push through, it will pass, etc etc. Only in my adulthood have I been able to go to therapy and let me tell you… HOLY FUCKING SHIT how this episode in my life impacted me. I did not turn out happier or more resilient because of it, NOT FOR A SECOND. I grew into a rebellious teenager who, not realizing it at the time, was so worried to fit in that trespassed a lot of her own boundaries. My self identity intensely shifted and I started drinking and doing anything that would prevent me from being the “nerd” I was told I was. Honestly, I wish I had had someone to tell me I was not the problem, and to give me tools to hold my own values. I wasted DECADES of my life without noticing that this is what I was doing. This woman can only speak for people that ARE LIKE HER. She knows nothing of what people need. I do agree there might be a problem in focusing on too much feelings and naming everything as a “disease”, but shit, her “solution”???????? FUck me… what an ignorant take. She sounds like she would be the abusive parent if anything… ok let me try to keep watching now.
Yeah... you have a point there. She makes some good points too, but it's like she does not see the whole picture.
She’s on my last nerve… I can barely get through this video!
Nah, once you're a parent, and you start to see long-term outcomes, you will understand her brilliance in this matter.
@@garricksilver4749 As in suck it up, buttercup? She has a point, but her message lacks _any_ nuance.
Me too. I now realize the effects and am working to secure attachment. I dissociate a lot.
My eldest is, however prone to identifying with and pathologising her feelings which sets them in cement. It's a big problem with some therapists being shit and not looking at external life markers, and overall personal growth. I don't think it's being over done in schools in Australia. Awareness of emotion is used to trigger self management and regulation behaviors. This will be good for when they get on the ducking plane that the guest here talks about. My youngest just "does life". Horses for courses.
seems like she made a theory and did research to support her opinion rather than actually look for the truth/root cause
For real
but she literally says in the video that her original theory different than what she finally ends up talking about in the book; not to say that her final theory is good but thats what happened
@@sleeping_dragon right, i just mean her take on therapy sounds like the average gen xer’s view on therapy
Isn't that just describing what scientific research is? You observe, you propose a hypothesis, you test that hypothesis.
When it comes to the social sciences (especially psychology), the absolute objective truth is incredibly difficult to dig up, and even then you'll still have scholars disagreeing. It's pretty much a neverending work-in-progress, and you can never be free from some level of subjectivity.
@@TheR6R6R That makes sense. It just feels like she lacks nuance when discussing the findings of the research. I would understand her better if she also brought up and argued against other theories for why mental health is on the rise these days. idk she might have i didnt watch the whole video
While I don't deny an argument to the notion that this generation coming up is being classified as more anxious and suffering from 'helicopter' parenting, I would highly suggest taking what Abigail says with a grain of salt. She's not trained in psychology or counseling (I have a degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling myself), she is a journalist, with a clearly strong opinion and very contested viewpoints in other arenas that I would argue are leaning hard conservative-- just be cautious and do your research! Its great to be aware and open minded on what is going on with kids and be wary of over pathologizing, however throwing therapy and counseling under the bus as well as medication that has actually helped many individuals is also just going to confuse a bunch of people. I hope no one that has a child that is actually suffering watches this and decides not to get them help :/
Well said
29F, and I have the same degree! I chose not to pursue the profession largely because of the diagnosis requirements from insurance (that she never once mentioned, interestingly enough). I 100% agree with you!
The current state of psychology and counseling is positively counter-productive. Not working. Making things worse.
She has a law degree from Yale which may seem irrelevant but you really learn how to do research well in law. This is because in the practice of law, you inherently have to know about the topic you are handling and have to learn how to do research about that topic. For example, for competency for Miranda rights, you will have to do research on both case law and psychology for competency. So she likely put her skills at conducting excellent research towards this topic.
"Young adults don't want to leave home and be adults."
Yeah because no one can afford to do so, after twisting the family unit away from multiple generations within the same home, now we're going back towards that but with a shift out of women being stuck with all the mental workload and household maintenance.
Not bothering with listening to the rest.
The US govt spending is out of control and they are forcing the young generations to foot the bill. That's why "adult life" is not affordable to most young adults anymore. The cost of living has skyrocketed, and the rich get richer in this system, and the poor get poorer. Also the young generation went through a pandemic, had their paths drastically interrupted, dealt with a lot of super depressing global stuff early on.
you can move out get a job and rent a house..?
@@bernisp1 some people have 3 jobs and not able to cover basic necessities/rent/bills at the rates they were two years ago, they've only increased since then.
Her completely not addressing this HUGE systemic factor is ignorant.
I agree with this. Also...I think that there IS something to be said for adopting a familial lifestyle rather than (hyper) individualism! If you can get along with your parents or other family members why wouldn't you want that support?! Especially when the cost of living is inflated!
Yeah judging a whole generation is a total nonsense
I fucking loathe my genersation and the kids coming after me, and this woman still threw a fucking red flag parade.
Yet as decades pass it will happen time again; always someone to look down on to feel superior about ons's self , a typical narcissism thing common in many echo chambers.
I feel like while therapy CAN help some individuals it can also be perpetuating a person to stay stuck in their trauma. As a daughter of a psychotherapist but also someone who has unpacked my own childhood and has done exstensive research and educated myself in many types of therapies, nervous system regulation, psychology, etc I have learned three main important parts to this puzzle of healing: yes, you have to acknowledge what you perceived as trauma in your childhood and life and learn how to forgive and make peace with it. Two: you have to learn how to regulate your nervous system in healthy ways because you will be triggered in adulthood. Three: you need to figure out how to focus and look for the good in your day. This one may sound surface level or less important but it can be so easy to go down a rabbit hole of negativity. I feel like this is the third step because it's important not to do this before number one and sugar coat over things that are underlying traumas hidden in your subconscious that will dictate the patterns in your life. Also what you focus on grows and that can work for or against you depending on what you CHOOSE to feed in your mind. If you're reading this I pray you are at peace in mind, body and soul and that something amazing happens for you today.💗🙏🏼
PS: While you may have been victimised in your life you do not have to choose to be a victim. You were born to win.💕
Thank you
@@smanthawalsh 💗💗💗
Very well said! Thank You!!!
As an African frim developing country,therapy is very new to us. Some of have been through so much as teenangers and we did not get therapy and some of us are truly struggling as adults. And some of our parents are pretty messed up. Our younger generation isn't doing better even though they are not getting therapy.
Yes. Time does not heal old wounds.
Agree that people are being over-pathologized, but she’s not acknowledging that good therapy can actually make you more resilient. She uses the words always and never which is concerning. There’s also more nuance regarding the empty processed foods and sugar kids eat, gut brain connection and nervous system disregulation, information overload, etc. Something also tells me she would benefit from getting in touch with her feelings more.
Shrier is definitely full of anecdotal evidence.
Her message was very clear: she is talking about kids who are dealing with normal problems, not serious trauma. She has stated in many interviews that kids with serious issues should absolutely receive treatment. Her entire message is about the harm of pathologizing normal emotions simply because they’re uncomfy.
@@jennys9043 yeah true. I watched the podcast and agreed with most of the points discussed, but the comment section is full of people disagreeing. It led me to question my beliefs and kind of surprised me how many people are different and can't just suck it up. What seems like normal life experience to me gets some people kind of messed up. Interesting to see all the perspectives.
@@jennys9043 And people who counter her are saying that over-pathologizing is only a problem in her rich people circle. In the “real” world, most people can’t afford regular therapy, and most therapists can only address serious problems within their limited time.
I've seen studies that say the best emotional regulation is taught by other children. Children raised in large groups with a variety of ages learn to communicate and work together, and parents are their sanctuary after. It'slike going to be with the other kids is their jobs.
The fact people in the comments are talking about it, there is a kind of true in this podcast. Walking helped me more than years of talking about my my miscarriages and bullying. I don't always want to talk, i want to FEEL and continue walking.
Exercise and nutrition and powerful things.
The fact that she is blaming therapy for what is a global trend is seriously discrediting...
She's not blaming therapy, therapy's just her area of focus.
Therapist here. There's a lot of assumptions being made about therapy... I know I try to help clients see the difference between what is normal development and what may be an additional experiential layer that is their reality, encourage resilience and strengths, building hope through self accountability is also a big part of therapy... It's about seeing the whole picture and individualizing the process to empower clients. We don't just label something as trauma... We're taught to be very careful about that, focusing more on the experiential aspect. That being said, as in all fields there are some bad therapists out there, which I hope supervision can shift.
We also don't indulge in someone sitting in their pain as a crutch or justification for harmful behavior... We gently call out what we see when the client is ready. And then give them alternative ways of seeing things or being, which they then choose for themselves. In short, therapy is both the content, but also the process.
@@jlypham The problem is that your clients are almost always lying. They want justification to call their spouse/parent/boss a deliverer of “trauma” so that you will call it such too, (and y’all always do) and then you as a therapist will coach the first rule of trauma, “get away from it,” or in this case, run away from your problems. They will feel validated, and do just that. Break up a family, leave a good job, and hate their parents. I’ve seen it as not just the norm in therapy, but the “this is the only way it happens.”
I have no doubt that people such as yourself are truly working for the betterment of your patients and follow the Hippocratic Oath. As someone in the field, do see any substance or truth to what Abigail is stating/hypothesizing?
@@jesserhodes7430 Appreciate your open ended question. As with all things, each element needs to be examined with it's nuances in various levels (individual, family, societal), and there is always truth to be found in some contexts, but those truths may not apply the same way in others. I do think generalizing and scapegoating is a intellectual fallacy, and that happens a lot here. Therapists, clients, therapy styles are so diverse and individualized that I don't put so much weight on reductive reasoning. For specifics, I've just listened to Dr. Ana's analysis of the book and think she's thorough and pretty comprehensive regarding factors to take into account. I feel she is generally unafraid to acknowledge when a good point is made, and seems to have a good understanding of the clinical side of the field. Hope this helps
th-cam.com/video/-wagZLXs4vs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PXWGO9AjTY1MbU_S
Sadly schools have also changed a lot in the last 20 years, also for the worse with all of the crazy academic pressure and loss of arts and such. This of course affects children's mental health greatly. Previous generations did not have to go through the schools of today. I understand that lady's point, but I think comparing different generations needs to include the fact that today's schools are much harder/perhaps much worse in many ways with greater pressure on kids and on top of that they have to deal with technology. All of this previous generations did not have to deal with. Today's kids also do not have their mothers at home the way previous generations did. There are lots of differences.
My education was much more demanding that that of my children. No exaggeration- by at least 10-fold.
Buddhism famously mentions how being obsessed with the delusional self is a cause of suffering.
And practicing Buddhism also demands actually acknowledging your emotions looking within, meditating, etc. it was/is way ahead of Western Psychology, and her outdated critique of it
Can verify that, as a physician halfway through residency… burnout is real af.
I believe you. Good luck!
Totally - i work with clinicians and they are all burned out.
Might that be because these younger generations are not as resilient as the older ones? My parents (70’s) and grandparents (mid 90’s, still alive) had truly difficult lives and are very mentally strong. I wish I were half as resilient as them.
@@jenniferbrown3782 Random Russian peasants are being conscripted to be human cannon fodders without a peep. Way more metal than your elders. Do you envy them? You should.
@@jenniferbrown3782🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Emotions are different types of “check engine lights,” and children should be taught as such. For example, I feel angry, but now what? Do I allow this emotion to impair my behavior, or do I see the gift of the feeling and empower my behavior and response.
The big problem I see (all ages) is calling all problems trauma. The problem with calling all incidents trauma is that the first rule in (real) trauma (like your home town being bombed but it doesn’t need to be this bad to be trauma) is to get away from it. So, we just run away from our incidental problems. We need better help coping and communicating.
To quote Mr. Mark Manson himself, "it may not be your fault, but it's your responsibility."
Love this conversation and yet there is an element of Conflict Entrepreneurism here. Shrier is stuck in black and white thinking, discounting all therapists and not understanding that great therapists Always focus on resilience and post traumatic growth, and do not indulge in emotional reasoning or encourage rumination on painful events.
She did indeed mention that there are good therapists out there- but the focus of the convo was on what is going wrong to make things worse, so that is what was discussed.
Abigail makes many good points, but so does the video by Psychology with Dr. Ana here on TH-cam, where she reviews and offers a balanced critique on the book. Highly recommend people here check it out.
Note that unlike this podcast guest, Dr Ana actually has expertise in this field!
@@swolekhineah yes having creditials immediatly makes the people you disagree with wrong.
I agree with you. I saw her video and it was really interesting. Lots of podcast where she goes already seem to agree with her and don't push her much. Personanly, I think Abigail has great point, but I want to see someone who doesn't agree with her ask her good questions
what would be an example of a good question for her?@@LilSyl05
Ya mean Dr Ana who just recently got her PhD and has zero experience? Any dr is capable of doing research, and Abigail researched this one. Unless one replicates the research over years, one has no clue and only has a subjective opinion, so let’s wait for ana to duplicate the research and see if she comes up with same or different. Or y’all suffering from confirmation bias when ya haven’t read the book in first place😂. I’ll take old age and experience over youth and inexperience all day, AKA everything I know I learned in college, not in real world.
36:36 Mark asks, "Is there any anxiety around being judged by other parents?" My co-worker left a 'worse parent award' on my desk for 3 years because I refused to read my child's texts and didn't know immediately where he was (at 16) at every moment of the day. It was such an assumption because I knew which of his friends to ask to find out where he was and what he was doing. But really, my son and I had trust. I rarely had to discipline him because my husband emphasized the need for consistency in parenting, establishing boundaries, and appropriate consequences. My child, who is an adult, now goes to therapy, and sure, I question this therapist's sanity in my own head sometimes. But I also understand that the therapist is advising based on my child's worldview, which is uneasy for all the reasons young people are anxious nowadays. He does own his own home, though, and pays his own bills. But he still advocates for those his age who can't.
This video really misses the mark, in my opinion. Of course there are bad therapists like there are bad teachers, doctors, engineers, (every job you can think of), ect. But her central thesis undermines an entire profession. Additionally, half of her arguments all but shit on an entire generation. Its eerily similar to all of the "millennial are soft and doing x" arguments that flooded the internet 10 years ago. But the central theme is true to a degree, there seems to be an influx "therapy speek" and armchair psychologists. People go in for their session and regurgitate everything they heard on social media. And i do see a problem with that but only because there is nuance to situations. And then, we sort of start talking about emotional regulation, which i think we can all agree is a good thing, she starts blasting parents for how they parent? In her eyes, its not "teaching your kids how to work through emotions" but instead "saddling them with depression." It really seems like there is a big disconnect between the problems, which she poses as problems, and the causes she points at.
The entire profession should be criticized. It's not working. Seems to be making things worse in many cases. Especially now that the profession legally has to affirm minors in many cases. Rotten to the core.
Doctors or engineers or teachers usually don't defend bad apples in their profession. In therapy the case is different for some reason. When you say you were traumatised by a professional you're unlikely to be believed that that professional sucked, a more common interpretation is that it's all in your head and you are in denial of your issues or paranoid or what not. If that interpretation fails they'll say "therapists are only human" not holding them to any standards, and if that fails they'll imply you're to blame for not changing therapists. There is always deflection, it resembles a cult.
We need to talk about mental health issues, emotional regulation and mental fitness every day for another 20 years until we all get it!
It’s not going to be perfect, but it’s going to save lives.
At some point we will find the correct balance. In the meantime, saying therapy and emotional education is “ruining” a generation is terribly irresponsible.
Parent and grandparent generations ignored climate change, did nothing to counter the rising wealth inequality, loaded the countries with debt and are now exploiting this generation through underpaid labour, excessive rent and price gouging. Never dealing with their feelings is what allows the to live with themselves while they were/are doing it.
But I’m sure it’s therapy that makes this generation miserable…
Yeah true. loaded the countries with debt. They are the one actually reserving wealth for their own generation by way of possible corruptions and briberies. Look at the current leaders. Their grandchildren are super rich without even have to work.
Oh please, you can't blame EVERYTHING on climate change
ha this is funny. but they delt with their own problems to right? The world wars, poverty, loads of troubles.. This generation is getting unhappier, but why is the question, and whats the right way forward? Its something im still not sure of.. Your points are valid, and the lady is voicing the older generations as well.. I dont know whats true at this point. I want to believe its not our fault, that life is forgiving, but is it? Maybe Im conflating unrelated ideas with eachother, but thats my biased interpretation. This vid brought up a lot of conflict and questions I have to the surface and Im now unsure of the nature of struggles and reality.. lol sorry for rant but yeah thats funny.
@@corb5654 That’s why I’m also blaming wealth inequality, price gouging, extortionist rent and debt among other things 🤷
@@jakobcreatesPlease start a youtube channel.
There is a difference between understanding a problem and identifying *with* a problem.
All througout school I thought I was dumb and I struggled so much with certain school work assignments. I was berated by teachers and my parents and I internalised that struggeling is the way to go. At the age of 25 I was diagnosed with Dyslexia. It didn’t really change the way I perceived information, but it changed my perception of myself. I was able to finally let go of the “I am dumb” voice, and just accept that I think differently. That thinking differently is not inherently bad, and comes with a different set of strength. One could argue that goong through all the though times taught me to be resiliant and creative in teaching things myself. But who knows where I would be today, if I figured that out at 15 rather 25. Where would I be with support? With more understanding?
In my eyes there are two parts of therapy. The understanding and then the doing. I often attribute it to a basement/storage/pantry room. You’ve always put things in there, but since the light was always off, you’ve never really seen all the things in there. Going to therapy/understanding is like turning on the light and, often for the first time, see all the stuff that has accumulated over the years. With any cluttered room, you can go through it and look at all the things in there and it can be quite exciting/nostalgic/overwhelming.
Important is what you do next: You can turn the lights off and leave, you can go through all the stuff one by one forever, or you can learn how to clean up the stuff.
Most people get stuck at the first or second thing thinking that they only have the choice of looking at the mess or leave.
The problem with therapy is when people just going around and round and round, talking about their messy pantry rather than doing something about it. Cleaning it up is nice, but you also got to understand why it got so messy in the first part, and why it will keep getting messy. Don’t BE the person who IS the one with the messy pantry, but BE the person who cleaned it up.
Sorry for the bad analogy, but I hope it makes sense!
Does this woman really think her anecdotes are somehow patterns? This video isn't getting a thumbs down for your work, it's for the author's cursory understanding of deep subjects. Her dismissing of the existence of permissive parenting because there's a "style" of parenting that is part of the actual definition of permissive parenting and is not this author's superficial explanation of the concept.
Abigail is not a psychologist and it shows. I am immediately skeptical of anyone who speaks with such absolution on an array of topics. Defining much of her takes as “always.” “Never.” A true scientific researcher would not do this and understands the nuance to each situation. So the fact that she’s written a book on therapy when she is not in that realm , JUST ADDS TO THE BAD INFORMATION!! Recognizing emotions is obviously something kids should be improving upon. Not letting them be a defining life factor is also a wonderful skill.
1. Then why you listening to Mark?
2. The ignorance that only American educated and opinioned professionals are worthy of having something beneficial to say...
1) Mark was the only saving grace within this episode and understands the nuance.
2) I never made that claim, thats your assumption of the statement. America has some of the loosest requirements of a what a therapist needs to practice and many of her claims simply arent correct.
I love Mark and his views, this is just a bad take and Abigail is adding to the bad information.
Don’t stereotype age groups. There are mature, experienced and developed young people. Not knowing about them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are exceptions to every stereotype, but stereotypes exist for a reason. A lot of the time there is data to back up these stereotypes.
This!!!
people stereotype themselves into groups, that s a choice made by many individuals, not of an individual made for many
@@MNP208OH, please.
@@ciucinciu100% correct!
I live at home because I can’t afford rent on my own and I don’t have a roommate or a romantic partner I can room with. If I could get one of those at my age, that’d be great. In the meantime I paid off my student loans by living at home and now I’ve got an emergency fund in place for whenever I find a roommate and I’m halfway through paying off my car and I’m contributing to retirement. If I can’t afford rent, I might as well do something productive with my money while I live at home. Hopefully one day I can find someone to share rent with, but until then I still want to set myself up to do better down the road
Edit: I also was a problematic kid and got an ODD diagnosis and I was not a tech kid. I didn’t grow up with iPads and phones since I am older gen z. My parents would discipline me and it didn’t matter. I retaliated and escalated it. The answer was books. Once I started reading and actually being mentally engaged with subjects that interest and challenge me, I was fine. I wasn’t on edge a bunch anymore and didn’t have many behavioral problems. When a kid asks why they need to do something, sometimes “because I’m mom and I say so” doesn’t work. That line still doesn’t work for me. I need to know WHY things have to be the way they are. Just tell me why and I’m much more apt to do it
This guest brings up some very thought provoking points around what confirmation biases and self-fulfilling prophecies we're activating by fixating on ideas normally reserved for diagnosed psychological conditions (this is actually a great perspective to consider when we find ourselves a bit too wrapped up in our "past traumas"), but I also think her delivery isn't going to win over some people. She painted parents/therapists with rather broad strokes, and any time you generalize how people approach their roles (i.e. parents and therapists), you're going to open yourself up to scrutiny for it. The criticisms she presents come off a bit personal as well, and that makes her message appear less credible.
There certainly have to be exceptions to this idea as well. You can attend to children's negative feelings while also pointing them in a positive and constructive direction. Essentially, validating the kid's feelings (which is hugely important to helping them feel secure) but then creating a lessons out of it, instead of enabling the victim mindset with the reinforcement of sympathy that doesn't go anywhere constructive but just encourages finding more problems to elicit that response.
Saying "you're fine, this is all normal" while perhaps true also comes off a bit dismissive and that feels like we're going to the other extreme like past generations who pushed real issues down to an unhealthy extent. Maybe we can find a middle ground where we learn from what our parents' generation didn't do very well (i.e. acknowledging anything emotional as a valid problem), but also not perpetuating this kind of "sickness" placebo around encountering any kind of difficulty or discomfort.
I disagree with her about one fundamental thing. There is no such thing as an adult. None of us know what we are doing, and we are all just winging it. And as far as I can tell this lady does not have a psychology degree. So this is all just her anecdotal opinion not actually backed with any evidence. I'm not saying I completely disagree with her, but I'm taking all of this with an entire truck of salt.
I would argue there is such thing as an adult. Apart from legal age. An adult is someone who takes a high level of responsibility for their own life. Kids don't do that. Adults do.
Or would it be better to say the tiniest grain of salt?
I agree you should be skeptical but a degree in psychology doesn’t automatically qualify somebody to speak on psychology. In fact an outside opinion in every field is often valued. I don’t need a structural engineering degree to see that the building is crooked or that construction workers sometimes use dangerous methods and shortcuts. We can look at results and question the methods as relational and educated humans.
If you don't think there is such a thing as and adult then you're probably doing a crap job of being one.
This is the most boomer convo from someone with zero expertise in the subject who is overly simplifying the subject. I appreciate seeing the actual professionals writing in the comments and clarifying some of the nuance. I agree that we should not be victimizing ourselves or obsessing about our suffering, however we should not minimize and invalidate people’s true lived experiences that have affected them. Therapy works for people who want to get better and are determined to put in the work. As someone who struggled with depression and was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, therapy changed my life for the better! I am far more emotionally stable, I am empowered with tools that help me manage my anxiety and ADHD symptoms, and I am more connected to my empathy for other.
I’d love to see the studies that she references in her book (hopefully she does reference them).
EXACTLY!
Although she makes some really good points, there are some points that I disagree with. She is very right about the fact that there is too much self diagnoses. And people need to have more resiliancy. But even so, there are MANY children and teens growing up in disfunctional families where their families cause major psychological harm to them. It's important that they learn what is healthy, and that they have influences that come from outside of the family system. I also think that a lot of these outburst are caused by tech and social media as people are acting similar to those who are addicted to substances ex. emotional outburst.
Make your own video about it.
I agree. I think the number of broken families in America is unprecedented in history. There is no point in blaming teachers, or parents, kids or therapists. The argument could be made that we could do a better job of ending poverty but it is extremely tough to get ahead of what kind of outcomes that would create, even. In fact there will always be unexpected problems resulting from new solution. So I decided to stop being attached to a fix. There is no hero or great breakthrough in the works, and thats ok.
My experience has been it's empowering to move out of a victim mentality where other people or institutions are villains or heroes (drama triangle). I'm moving to a place of autonomy and agency and take responsibility for what I actually am responsible for which is only myself my mentality my emotions and my willingness to reach out and ask for help and create community. That leads me back to the beginning problem of a lack of connection: healthy connection. Working on building listening skills.
I also believe that social media applications have a huge influence in the isolation and depression epidemic
Pain isn't harm, and unhappiness is the natural state.
@@coppersense999 listening to what exactly? More bad feelings as distractions and procrastinations from actually doing the work of owning our responsibility?
My mom made me wear a suit to my first interview, I begged and pleaded with her not to.
It ended up being a "group" interview, so I was not only embarrassed, but completely ashamed as of course I'm the only idiot wearing a suit to a minigolf interview.
Safe to say, I didn't get the job...
Edit: duh I didn't get the job because I was nervous, I literally said I was embarrassed, as I never wanted to wear a suit. Sorry some of you are too brain dead to understand this concept.
Probably because you seemed uneasy rather than the suit. I've hired people and if a kid showed up in a suit I would like that, but if he seemed uncomfortable and there was a shittily dressed kid who seemed very at ease and confident I would probably take the confident one even if I would have preferred a well dressed person.
@AthelstanMercia cool story. The point was my parents forced me to wear it, and I would have had a much much higher chance without it, especially because everyone was making fun of me and laughing.
Not everyone is impressed by a suit, especially people who actually own a putt putt golf course and didn't get hired as a Wendy's manager.
@@EricYoungVFX Seems like this goes deeper than just 'being forced to wear a suit'. I'd not want to work there if the interviewer let the kids bully and shit anyway. Maybe you dodged a bullet and the suit has nothing to do with this.
@@Akito0110 I'm not saying the suit ruined my chances, although it probably didn't impress the owner. Being embarrassed, as I was already the only male at the interview and now over dressed made it much harder to calm my nerves as, again, it was my first interview.
I'm not thin skinned enough to get mad at some 16 year old girls for laughing at a suit, as it was ridiculous.
Generally speaking, overdressing is better than underdressing to job interviews, as long as you're wearing professional attire because it tells employers you're serious about getting hired. Most likely the suit was not the problem but perhaps how you handled the unsolicited comments you received because of your attire. If the employer was that petty in not hiring you because of the suit then you're probably better off not getting hired by that place.
You could see her hiding the pain when she started talking about "ugly".
Maybe they talk about it later in the video... but what exactly do they mean by social emotional learning? I think the definition of that is really important. Emotional regulation skills, setting healthy boundaries, reading other people correctly, and adapting to social situations are useful things that kids should learn.
It's SEL, a curriculum to try to teach children/students emotional regulation, empathy, etc. Although it's received a lot of backlash on the right/GOP.
I think the real problem is that parents should be learning these skills so that they can then help their children communicate effectively in their lives. Instead, they just send their kids to the therapists/groups to learn, so now the blame is on the therapists instead of the parents who were the real failures all along. I feel like parents either just don't have the time to devote to their children anymore, or they just can't mentally handle it themselves so they take the easy routes. Sorry, tangent on your comment 😅
@@briandunn957From reading the comment, I can see why it got backlash. It isn't clear to me who holds that responsibility to teach children about emotions, and it being called regulation implies that children are out of control and need counseling. On the other hand, it could mean that people will take less responsibility, parents, teachers, because there is a class for it. Judging by this, it might not do any good.
13 minutes into this and I’m cringing at how shockingly uninformed this woman is.
Generations always blame the generations that came before them. In 2050, Gen Z will be blamed for ruining the lives of those who come after them by participating in social media, buying fast fashion, harming the environment, etc.
From someone who has being diagnosed with CPTSd from daily child abuse ( all kind) and love therapy i do agreed with her... marinating on what happened take you to are deeper hole that breaks ypur will and ability to get out of. The people who go through horrible trauma and move foward in life we call them survivors. I use my therapy to understand that what happened, happened nothing will change that. What i need is with support is make clear how that affects and shapes the now... and how with that knowledge i can do things differently and put my socks in the morning and going forward. Bad therapy can intensify the victim mentality and highlight ones shortcomings and then everything becomes a overwhelming task. And if you delight deeply on the attention you get for being a victim, your life becomes a pitty party that you host yourself. Because is easier blame others and the end you are the poor victim. But i see that point everyone is making here. I dont think is just G zs issues as i know many that suffers from a victim mentality. I think the to much of a good thing become a bad thing. This overload of being in your head and feelings, and validation we are living now... will be detrimental on the long run. We have a lot challenges to face as society, and if we dont get up and face it ... our hurt feelings wont get us out of those situations.
The scraped knee analogy had me laugh out loud. When my four year old son was riding his bicycle he fell and screamed his adorable little head off for several minutes. i mean, he was completely hysterical. I watched this for a bit (I'm German, so I'm not the mushy kind) and finally told him loudly to knock this nonsense off, it's not like the leg got cut off. He shut his mouth in shock, hiccuping a bit, but calmed himself down and watched as I cleaned his leg, slapped a bandaid on and sent him back outside to keep on biking. He really toughened up after this day, he'd scrape himself, and calmly ask for a bandaid, even if he had tears in his eyes, which after all is a natural reaction to pain. But he never overreacted like that day again. It was remarkable.
I'm a licensed mental health counselor and almost nothing these two said in this podcast is accurate. No compassion for survivors here 😅. I'm sorry but this is disrespectful and is equal to telling people "to get over it" when they are suffering. Mental illness is not something people choose. I do believe that people are pathologizing themselves too much and self diagnosing. This is a problem. You two are blessed beyond belief to not have trauma therefore you simply cannot understand. Also, trauma alters the brain structure making the prefrontal cortex smaller and making the amygdala bigger. It is not a choice and mental health and physical health are intertwined.
I haven't even started yet, but my first shock is that Shrier is on Mark's podcast. Also, Mark's previous video was sponsored by _Better Help_ who have been repeatedly called out for how terrible they are.
Iam always anxious for simple things.Can you recommend me any books or researches or TH-cam videos plzzz❤
Not everyone has mental illness or PTSD, which is the point of the podcast. Therapy is known to make people lean in to the fact that they are ‘depressed’ instead of sad etc etc. did you listen to the podcast or did you just instantly say that they are disregarding survivors?
@@ZippetyZoppetyZop The podcast is over an hour long and was only posted 50 minutes ago. So no, she hasn't finished it yet.
@@greenpoprocket7965 she could've changed the playback speed
This is the most boomer episode ever
My therapist told me, my mother just doesn't love me. She is just in the Autism spectrum and hadn't had a sense of connection in the past. She was abused from my father many times, because he sensed something is off with her. She just could connect emotional. I am happy I didn't stop my self healing journey internal.
I wish someone had asked about my feelings when I was a child. I was raised in an abusive household and had undiagnosed autism and adhd. My life was an absolute nightmare and no adult ever helped me. I’m 36 now, recently diagnosed with audhd and cptsd. Life is still a nightmare because of the neglect i suffered as a child.
It was a conversation for a while and then an angry rant for a while 😅
My therapist and I seemed to be getting along well. We were planning on doing EMDR. She taught me some great resource tapping skills for when I was in distress. Then I accidentally saw on a document that she diagnosed me with Borderline Personality Disorder. She never brought this up in any of our sessions. When I questioned her on it she said I was not supposed to see that document. I asked if we could talk about this she agreed to call me and then she cancelled on me twice. I then just stopped seeing her "Introducing new symptoms " was definitely something I experienced with her. It felt like such a slap in the face that this whole time she was pathologizing me behind my back without telling me.
is that even legal? I mean if she diagnosed you is it legal not telling you? if you go to the cardiologist and prescribe you something what he is prescribing you for ? You have to know
I’m so sorry that happened. I know that pain too. That’s why I think it’s important that the general advice “get therapy” is not good. Therapy is a very vulnerable experience and potentially harmful and counterproductive one. I hope you are able to find someone who is more sensitive and professional
@@Alf258 You would be surprised at how many people go to therapists and are diagnosed with something unbeknownst to them. If I never saw that document who knows if she would've ever brought this up with me. It's not that they keep you from seeing this information....but they aren't forthcoming with it.You have to request to see your notes
@@drebugsita I agree.
And I type this on a site that is sadly riddled with "better help" ads
It's important to point out, that if you have real trauma, telling/writing and repeating the story over and over from beginning to end *is helpful* neurophysiologically because it is a safe way to make yourself understand what happened. You will have a strong flight-fight-freeze response in the beginning but it will gradually decrease until you're bored and overcome the fear.
Source: Neuroscientist Andrew Huberman on TH-cam.
Sure, that's the basis for edmt, but doing it once or twice for therapy is different from repeating it every week for the rest of your life and defining yourself as traumatized to everyone you meet.
@@trianglesandsquares420 I Agree. The point is to make the trauma story so understandable and boring that you could own it and even make jokes about it if someone happened to discuss the topic. Also at that point you could define yourself as sassy, not traumatized ;)
I wouldn’t take any advice from Huberman at face value. At this point he’s hardly a credible source, unless maybe on his actual field - ophthalmology
@@drebugsita Here is the original: th-cam.com/video/31wjVhCcI5Y/w-d-xo.html from 50:30 onwards. But I agree. Unfortunately he went the popular route. But this is his earlier stuff, and he referenced. I think he is also stress/fear researcher, I recall him telling about the shark experiences and VR experiments.
She is getting at something. The mental health bubble might shift kids and parents focus away from actually building real life skills, experiences and competences, while focusing way too hard inwards, as if there was some all solving answer or feeling to find. It trains people to be inactive and disinterested in real life, while looking for answers in themselves, when often the answer lies in action and learning by doing, failing and doing again and again and again.
6:58 this lady really wrote a whole book and never heard about gratitude practice
ChatGPT version:
The popularity of gratitude practice actually supports the idea that even positive emotions have a lot to teach us about emotional regulation and overall mental health. It shows that actively cultivating positive emotions, like gratitude, can have profound effects on our emotional landscape and resilience.
In therapy for children, as well as in general emotional education, the goal isn't only to manage negative emotions but also to enhance and understand positive emotions. Gratitude practice, for example, helps children and adults alike to foster a greater sense of well-being, improve relationships, and develop a positive outlook that can buffer against negative mental states. It teaches us that nurturing positive emotions can enhance emotional regulation by establishing a more balanced emotional experience that supports coping with challenges.
Thus, the engagement in practices like expressing gratitude demonstrates that emotional education and therapy are as much about cultivating strengths and positive states as they are about addressing and managing difficulties. This balanced approach can lead to more robust emotional health.
It's all nice and funny to talk about the climate anxiety as a new industry that has been generated. But is it? Most likely teenagers will not have a future. The fact that we all live in collective denial it doesn't mean that people who do worry about it are overindulging in their fears I think...
I have to jump in to comment about the causation argument being made right now that “if parents don’t let their kids do risky things, those kids will become kids who never want to leave the house.” My boys were free-range kids. At 7 and 9, Ithey would ride bikes around our neighborhood with their friends. My son was doing flips on our trampoline at 4 -years-old, and my only parenting comment was “tuck your chin when you roll!” And then we moved to a new suburb just before Covid. Now, I have teens who don’t want to go outside because THEIR FRIENDS DON’T EITHER. The norms of the community you are raising your kids in matters more than how you individually parent them. We NEED to stop saying “This is a societal problem!”
And then blaming individuals.
I've worked in customer service on retail settings for years. I've discovered that some managers empower us to solve problems, and some want to be in charge of solutions, so we have to call them for everything. Sort of sounds like parenting
Talking to people in their 80ies is amazing... BUT you get both sides of the coin. Those who got trough the hardships and became strong resilient people, and those who are angry bitter racists etc. I think that is something that is worth noting, so it does not become to rose tinted when we look at generations that dealt with things themselves. Facebook is full of angry old people in every comment section almost. But really interesting conversation.
Yup! I work with older adults and know people in other states who do. Her statements are sweeping generalizations. So many of the older adults are just like the rest of us, same insecurities and defensiveness. And even gossipy and cliques. Time and age do not heal wounds, or bestow wisdom.
Teaching strategies for emotional regulation in a fun, shared setting is something today's education system would benefit from. There are no tools taught to kids as a first resort to tackle these issues, which is why things go so quckly down the therapy route when a kid encounters emotional/anxious struggles. We need a buffer there to handle more normative struggles.
They did multiple studies trying this and the kids either didn’t improve or got worse
@billusher2265 Given that there are an infinite number of ways you could adjust or re-structure something like that to find something that works, we probably shouldn't dismiss it as potentially helpful still.
A few years ago a couple of children in our neighborhood, ages 10 and 7, were allowed to go to the local park by themselves. They were doing fine, but some nosy parker concerned neighbor decided to report the kids' parents to the police for neglect. Child protective services investigated them. For letting kids go to the park!! I used to walk to school when I was in second grade with another second-grade friend. It was about a half hour walk. Totally normal, every kid did it.
Nowadays you'll get reported if you let your child go unsupervised almost anywhere, in any circumstances.
3:05 Thank you @Mark Manson for acknowledging that there are really good therapists out there too. Good therapists like myself work hard to support people's mental, emotional and behavioral needs while also challenging them to make positive changes so that they can enjoy their precious lives.
I actually agree with everything in this podcast. lol. I had a horrific upbringing. Isolated, neglected, beaten daily, emotional abuse daily, borderline sexual abuse, tortured, not socialized (socializing was actually frowned upon). the only bullies I’ve ever had were my family members. Had no one “on my side”. Had no peace as a kid and no one to go to. Felt totally unloved by my family, and continue to not. It’s severely affected the first part of my life.
I found kundalini yoga, self help books (hugely helped do a 180 on my mindset), and waking up at 5am (I was surprised this helped). over the last two years I’ve gotten rid of my anxiety, depression, and gotten my PTSD to a manageable level (continues to “go away”). It was hard work but I did it. My issue now, is trying to figure out how to live with this new life. That’s where I’m at right now at the age of 36. Trying to learn to learn to be social and that people do want to listen to me talk is strange at this age.
I’m somehow doing better mentally and emotionally than my coworkers who grew up with great families and upper middle class to rich lives.
@@davidj5425 you took this the wrong way and added your own intent.
What they are speaking about IS the truth. We need to learn to save ourselves, and not through escapism. That is how we become stronger and more capable of handling life with its (normal and unavoidable) fluctuations.
Super glad to hear that you’re healing and stepping in to your own “goodness”. It is hard learning to behave in a whole, new, unfamiliar way and make it your default.
That 5am thing helps. I started doing that and I did some reading on it but it seems going to bed earlier and getting up early helps keep your biological clocks ordered and that works to improve how you feel in general. Also, morning light increases dopamine and a few other things, I don't know if you're getting sunlight in the morning but it made a massive difference to me. Dr Jack Kruze talks a lot about it. I had ADHD and took stimulant meds but I don't need them anymore after following his light advice and also changing the lights in my house to BlockBlueLight ones.
That’s impressive. Any specific books you recommend? Nighttime or morning routine tips?
Definitely some thoughts to consider..... but it seems like her statements swing the pendulum far too much to the other side. On top of it she frequently uses absolutes and seems to ignore the non convenient nuances (economic, ACES, generational trauma) counter to her hypothesis. She also seems to speak from a lens in which she assumes most therapist don't have treatment plans. She also seems to have a caricature of therapists being cut from the same cloth & paints broad strokes disregarding the nuance clinical training and years of study provide. A large part of resilience is healthy grieving... and getting to a point of acceptance... it doesn't stop there & there are many other variables (social + more). The previous generations.... just put their trauma in a box ( didn't develop the emotional intelligence) and now the younger generation is the one dealing with it (I invite people to research genetic markers of trauma). Some of the older generation that are strong...unfortunately are dealing with the consequences of pushing emotions away (some didn't have the luxury to explore them & neither did the previous generation (WWI/WWII) by not being able to relate to others feelings ...including their partner's & children. AKA just pick yourself up by your bootstraps while disregarding empathy...
As a whole...having more emotional language has been a net positive for society. Children are not the scape goat, gen z is not the scape goat, our parents aren't, therapist aren't.... this a lot more nuanced and complex. The interesting part is some parents and older couples... do work through their trauma.... but now they are unpacking all of these in couple's counseling 20-30+ years after the fact.
A good therapist knows how to navigate through positive and negative emotions and explore prosocial ways of dealing with these. Not every negative emotion or encounter is traumatic or a catastrophe; many of these are a natural part of life, and this needs to be imparted in counseling. A good therapist encourages the patient to find their own way of dealing with issues that impact one’s life. In the short term, therapy can be rough for sure, but in the long term, it can be very positive and productive. Again, that’s with a good therapist. When I was in therapy, it was, at times, difficult, but overall, a positive experience. My therapist encouraged me to create useful coping tools and how to find my own way out of the maze, but I had to do the work. While I’m no longer in therapy and haven’t been for some time, I do feel very fortunate that I had a good therapist.
Kids have a fundamental right to discipline.
I grew up in a really dysfunctional family with explosive anger, and I pushed through the best I could, but with some real damage - PTSD. I am in therapy and have made real progress while understanding what I need to change and make apologies for where I effed up.
I was in day program for suicidal ideation and there were youngins who all had PTSD and trauma for break-ups and failing classes. I've also had relatives tell me to "get tough or die." I've learned where what trauma I experienced is valid and truly damaged me, and where I had to suck it up and I'm making a federal case out of a trifle.
Comparing what I experienced to Europe under the Nazis, what's going on in Gaza and Ukraine...I'm embarassed to compare...not that comparing is healthy exactly. HOWEVER I know people who identify as conservative who need therapy. Really toxic and cruel people.
I learned how resilient I am without ever having that pointed out, until recently. There is validation, but when having our weaknesses validated so often is ironic and makes us weird, in my opinion.
Just my two cents.
Thanks for voicing this, you’re 100% correct. Brave story to share! Sadly, I think people who haven’t been validated themselves are triggered by people who get validation in therapy.
There's validation and then there's excusing and enabling. I have learned that from personal experiences with therapists.
@@DerMatticusFink Yepp needs to be validation in combination with taking responsibility rather than playing the blame game for sure.
Every parent and school teacher's mantra needs to be: "Lots of love and lots of discipline." It's as simple as that.
I took a volunteer lay-counsellor training program once where we were taught that if the client cries that does not mean it was a successful session. Also, an important thing was to help the person find how they dealt with difficult things in the past, so they could possibly do those again. I do think if we can physically release the trauma that is good. Like when instead of just talking about it, the legs move as if the person is running. It is releasing the freeze response.
Even though therapists help a lot of people and problems but so many good points are being said in this podcasts!
the fact that the children are being overmedicated is so true and so many times diagnosis and medications is making people dependent on something outside themselves, instead of dealing with their weaknesses and maybe make them to their strengths in the future!
I haven’t read the book so I’m not going to make a comment on the book, but during the early portion of the episode, she linked Gen Z being comfortable with staying with their parents as well as people not wanting to have kids to mental health, but I don’t think that’s true.
First, I don’t even think a lot of Gen Z are content staying home, when there is little supply of jobs as well as increasing costs for pretty much everything. What are they going to do? Buy a fucking house?
Also, about the not having families thing, similar to the last point, it’s more of an economic problem than an “I don’t want to be an adult yet problem”
Furthermore, for someone supposedly knowledgeable in the area, there is a difference between shy and anxious. You can be shy about meeting new people, but what about when you’re not thinking of meeting new people -or any people for that matter- but you’ve got your heart beating fast, you struggle to concentrate on most things because the anxiety is operating in the background, and you even struggle to feel happy when you’ve achieved something worthwhile because the anxiety just ends up suppressing your other emotions anyways?
I do agree that there is too much pop psychology out there but that doesn’t change the nature of the original issues/experiences.
And to counter whats shes saying, I only wish my parents had noticed how depressed i was in elementary school and tried to get me help. All the activities i was in were merely a distraction from core wounds. I was resilient and thought achievement would fix it. It doesn't!!!!
Same. I begged for therapy. Unfortunately the therapist I saw was old and old school. But I later found a young therapist who I did CBT with. Which is another point, she doesn’t address the fact that therapy is an umbrella term for a profession that includes a range of approaches and modalities. I’m guessing she would actually like CBT and ACT
It's so refreshing to hear a brave voice of dissent, especially a female one. We owe it to ourselves to keep challenging our own beliefs and stagnant ways.
As a middle school teacher, I feel that she is spot on. Kids are way more disregulated than when I began teaching almost 20 years ago.
Kids will blame their bad behavior on their diagnosis.
sounds like therapy is replacing religion
I could only bear to watch 25 minutes...did she come up with any solutions? There are lots and lots of really bad terrible therapists out there - that is the problem some therapists do a lot of harm...but the good ones really work
My niece when she was four or five was hitting and biting when she didn't get her way. We tried to reason with her and tell her that it hurt us and that she wouldn't like it of someone did it to her but it didn't stop. I realized that neither actually hurt and so one day when she was doing it to me I got right in her little face and told her "I want you to hit me as hard as you can, hit me hit me in the face." Then I put my arm right to her mouth and said "bite me bite me as hard as you can." She looked at me with wide eyes and said "why are you saying this?" She never hit or bit anyone ever again.
I think people do need to be aware of narcissism and how victims of bullying get blamed. Once I finally told my parents I’m being stalked the school told me I started it and I was threatened every day it was like a war zone those things kids shouldn’t have to deal with daily. Yes we should say our minds can recovery and Neuroplasticity for example happens but trauma is real and most people and our society makes us over work ourselves and we spread ourselves too thin and that leads to perfectionism and depression.
Yes so true. I’m sorry that happened and especially that you did int get the support you needed. (I learned the importance of holding space and validation because I’m in therapy. Hardly got it at home)
This was needed. I needed this.
I signed up for therapy with this lady 3-4 months ago only to realize, my therapist needs a therapist and I've once again spent so much of my hard earned money to only deal with my life all by myself. And this isn't my first time walking away from a therapist after months feeling this exact same way.
What this conversation is lacking is the concept of discernment... hugely important!
I think the truth lies somewhere in between... the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps is a great way to teach kids that empathy isn't valuable and to ensure they have trauma. Bullying, cruelty and CPTSD are actually very real problems, especially for kids on the margins... perhaps the real issue is that if the world is preaching one set of rules to a kid (be kind and nice, but our country continually devalues those things in favor of power and money- see corporate welfare, policing women's bodies and electing a criminal/rapist/openly sexist, racist bully as president, that causes too much cognitive dissonance because the expectations for kids are completely at odds with the values needed to be a "successful" grownup. The problem is that kids can smell a lie, and we're lying to kids about what this country is really about. We value power and domination but preach peace and love. Be good to the planet kiddos, but adult politicians can gut the EPA for profit... billionaire CEOs need stock prices to rise .05% by next quarter to get their 12 million bonus. But raise the federal minimum wage? Single moms should really be working 4 jobs instead of 3, because if they'd just apply themselves and stop making excuses, they can succeed. Maybe the problem isn't anxious kids, maybe the problem is adults in power behaving badly who ensure that only those who bully, fear monger and hoard power succeed. When voting loses power in a democracy, we're probably not the best ones to broadcast our great and prosperous values. You have to walk the walk as an adult to get a kid to listen. Mark's wife obeying her father out of fear doesn't sound like something to be proud of. Abuse is a self-perpetuating system of behaviors. And people who weren't raised to know anything else can only continue to replicate abuse, unless there is an appropriate intervention and education (including therapy).
This woman sounds very threatened that medical establishment would teach her child to be skeptical of her parenting... how many children are actually in incredibly abusive family situations and would need for their parent to leave the room in order to be honest? Perhaps a gay kid in a super Christian family who's parents would rather send them to conversion therapy than confront their own bigoted beliefs?
Data is neutral- the stories we tell with it are not. I worked in data analytics for five years and that was the most important thing I learned.
Also Mark's comment about comparative suffering does no one any good. If you tell an addict to buck up and get over himself, does it cure his addiction? The whole eat your food bc there are kids "starving in Africa" (how about in the poor school district down the street) is fine for some kids, and really harmful to others. What about autistic children who have sensory processing issues?
A child is not a child is not a child is not a child. If you've had a child, congratulations, you now know how to be the parent to your particular child. Whats right for your kid may be wrong for someone else's kid. Providing less education sounds like the wrong solution.
What if we taught that emotions are like food, they must be metabolized? Denied anger finds a way out... brushing things under the rug may be a short term win, but there are still long term consequences. Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer... but a whole lot of people do. That's why we don't allow it indoors where people who might have asthma or other breathing conditions also may be. Smokers don't own the air, it's a communal resource.
Emotional competency is a new field, don't cut it off at the knees because boomers and know-it-all men's rights activists want everyone to toughen up. They're the reason everyone else has to go to therapy. You can teach emotional competency without making someone "soft." You can be resilient and empathetic at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.
All I heard discussed about actual therapy seems very subjective. I've been in therapy since I was 12 (23 years). While I've experienced bad therapy, I don't think I've ever had a therapist push to focus on the trauma or bad things that have happened. I agree that children in therapy are somewhat at a disadvantage because they don't have the same perspective and self-awareness as an adult. However, if anything, in my experience, my earlier therapists made me feel belittled in what I was going through. My therapists, as I've gotten older, have barely even brought up the major things that I never got to process as a youth. Therapy should be left to the professionals, i.e. teachers are not therapists and should not be counseling children as such. I most agree that parenting styles are the biggest factor in how children are developed. She mentions/blames the "trauma gurus", but who are they exactly? I've never read or heard exactly where the "surveillance parenting" style originated. In my opinion, our society and culture are the ones to blame for all of the things you two are talking about, not therapists. (Also, Mark, I LOVE your videos. This is probably the first one I've not really agreed with).
The trauma gurus that she mentions are actual groups of people who advocate for treating anything harmful or emotionally unpleasant as traumatic and protecting people, especially young people from it. You may not have encountered them, but they do exist.
When I was in my twenties I was sad, I didn't know why, I didn't know who I was, and I spent a lot of time trying to figure all that out. Trying to figure out why am I sad why others seem happy? I read a lot of books, self-help philosophy religion. A few helped and After some contemplation and observation I realized other people aren't happy all the time either, I'm just f****** normal. I then let go of this constant pursuit and thought that I need to be happy and know who I was and guess what? I felt way more at ease with myself and happier. I've also learned to give space to whatever arises, whatever feeling. If it's sadness I just allow it to be, It will pass,. If it's joy, I just allow it to be and enjoy it, That will pass too. I guess what I'm saying is I became more relaxed and simply sane.
There's some truth here but it's lacking clarity and is delivered in a ham-fisted way.
Is it not here the channel for harsh truths?
@@LauradeVasconcelosit’s here to have a discussion, inform yourself and move on with your life hopefully have learnt something and implement in real life
I've formed a convincing diagnosis.
The majority of Western culture is controlled by newer generations (hence a progressive society). This differs from Eastern societies as ancient wisdom is what mostly controls the culture. That's good for the West as it's a culture of continuous growth (just like kids). It's good for the East cause they don't face these problems, they have what's tried and tested.
it's bad for the West cause now kids that don't know anything yet are going all over the place and rejecting the wisdom of older generations.
It's bad for the East cause they never get to grow, it's unwise (or too difficult) to take such a big risk.
The takeaway is that the older generations in the West need to spread, advocate and enforce more education towards maturity.
The older generations in the East need to spread, advocate and enforce more education and action towards allowing the independence of the newer generations and allow for growth.
This is coming from someone who was raised in both cultures. What's your take on this?
Couldn’t have comprehended this better
Cognitive Behavior Therapy and practicing the teachings have been shown to help people take action, have agency and change their lives.
Huh, interesting. My perception, as someone who’s been failed for decades, repeatedly in my pursuit of healing from trauma and an ensuing recurring depression, is that most therapists are just awful - AWFUL. My last one was an enormous hypocrite. It’s always “finding a good therapist is really hard” (read “sucks to be you”). This is sort of how most of our American society is, it’s become largely artificial and, yes, toxic.
Shoot, I just realized this is propaganda.
I've had the same experience (though in Europe) and I get invalidated all the time in "regular" mental health spaces. (as opposed to spaces created for survivors of therapy abuse.) I honestly find it hard to wrap my head around. And I am left-wing, so not conservative at all and was really open to help. I still don't get it. It's either a cult/scam or my brain is wired differently. (The latter would be more probable if I got mostly the same kind of insights/opinions from therapists but they were all over the place and often contradictory.)
@@sylwiapro2791there are spaces for survivors of therapy abuse????