Rethinking the Dissolution of the Monasteries with Professor James Clark
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- James Clark is Professor of History at the University of Exeter and has published widely on medieval monasteries and their place in the medieval world and he was historical advisor on the BBC TV series Tudor Monastery Farm. His book ‘The Dissolution of the Monasteries - a New History’ was published in 2022 to widespread acclaim.
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Excellent video! Glad I found your channel. Being Catholic myself I am glad there are Societies in the UK that preserve Britain's Catholic Heritage. ❤
Thank you, please spread the word!
Are u familiar with Claire Asquith’s work Dark Matter? She does incredible analysis of Tudor Catholic censorship and how many of Shakespeare’s works are filled with double meaning regarding Elizabeth, Cecil and the regime’s Catholic suppression.
There are some great lectures on here if ur interested.
You sadly move from being a historian to being a polemicist, which is such a pity. You condemn quite rightly the ridiculous Victorian notion that the abolition of the Monastic tradition was evidence of the birth of Democracy but soon after you veer into the dream of monks adopting the zeal of reform all on their own volition! It’s not quite as absurd as the pathway to democracy but it’s moving from the reality into a wishful dream non the less. Of course Abbots were trying to placate Henry and Cromwell but they were doing all they could because they could see the writing on the wall. It takes a very, very brave individual to stand up to political and royal pressure and threats. Imagine what you would do if you were likely to face hanging and drawing and the torture that preceded it.
Henry needed the money; Cromwell got it for him. The ‘privatisation’ of Monastic England became a necessity because the King needed cash.
I know how powerful the romance of a lost world is; I’m 76 and have spent a lifetime visiting monastic sites all over England (and Scotland) often remote fields full of rubble and bits of architectural fragments. There are contemporary accounts and laments of the destruction by locals who only a few years before had been working for the monks on their buildings. There was little idealism then and you need to reflect that now I’m afraid :-)
I lived in Oxford for a dozen years and have always been associated with Catholicism and had a couple relatives that ran priories at one time or another. I am a Psychologist and I think you downplay the vindictiveness of Henry VIII.
I’m Protestant but I went to a Catholic university, I love cathedrals and art. What Henry VIII did was theft from the living and the dead.
I believe H VIII was a huge narcissist with a grudge against God. G Ire
I am Orthodox Greek so bring a pro -monastic slant to this subject but from different perspective. From a tradition that indeed had a reformation of sorts in Petrine Russia that sought to curtail monasticism but not to ban it.
The destruction of monasteries was a disaster in every aspect of life in the British isles.
Most interesting. Thank you very much.
Lol do u think monasteries had much choice but to follow Henry’s demands? They were also offering out pensions to the right people to enable smooth surrenders.
The abbots were forced to close the monasteries and several were executed
@@SKILLIUSCAESAR Is this a Tudor propaganda video of the modernist Roman Catholic sort? The monastic communities all knew they would get what St John Houghton and his monks got, and Sts John Fisher and Thomas Moore, if they did not accept Henry VIII as the Supreme Head of the English Church on earth. At least Henry II repented of his words that led to the murder of St Thomas Becket.
A fascinating talk . Very many thanks.
300 years United States but I have much English heritage. Thank you for the great lecture!
Thank you so much
Was alternately delighted, incredulous, and amazed at your reformation of the English Reformation. Yes, God forbid that “psychological factors” ever be used to explain the behavior of a misogynistic murderer. As for the Jerusalem Chamber and so-called monastic wealth, historians like you seldom mention that the collective thinking from Medieval times forward was that it was unseemly for the sons and daughters of aristocrats who joined religious houses to “be kept meanly,” as the thinking was. So Henry and his chosen aristocrats were taking the property of the still Catholic aristocrats and their children and grandchildren who were monks and nuns. You have to read a wide swath of history to learn that, for example, women had to come to the convent with dowries, or were not admitted. Strange and mercenary to us, but that day’s usual and ordinary expectation for women. Didn’t aristocrats choose to marry only women who brought property and money to them? Interesting how Brits have long justified the Dissolution. I heartily disagree with your conclusion. It was not “complex.” It was a colossal land grab, pure and simple. We Americans have had land grabs, too. Like Oklahoma. But it didn’t take us 488 years to admit it. Or, under President Biden and certain 20th century presidents to make reparations-not enough yet. But your people are still where we were in the 19th century.
I always wondered why there was old ruins in UK and Ireland, Ireland is full of them everywhere.
Gods, y’all, adjust the play speed if you think he talks too slow.
There are only 3 or 4 universities in Great Britain now offering Theology degrees. That also has been closing down recently.
In the XII century significant events take place, as described in the Gospels: the coming of Jesus Christ, his life and crucifixion, although the existing text of the Gospels was edited and most likely dates to the XIV-XV cc. In the mid XII century, in the year 1152, Jesus Christ is born. In secular Byzantine history he is known as Emperor Andronicus and St. Andrew the Apostle the First-Called in Russian history he was portrayed as the Great Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky. To be more specific, Andrey Bogolyubsky is a chronicler counterpart of Andronicus-Christ during his stay in Vladimir-Suzdal Rus’ of the XII century, where he spent most of his life. In fact, the Star of Bethlehem blazed in the middle of the XII century. This gives us an absolute astronomical dating of Christ’s Life. [ЦРС], ch.1. ‘Star of Bethlehem’ - is an explosion of a supernova, which at present is incorrectly dated to the middle of the XI century. The present-day Crab Nebula in the Taurus Constellation is the remnant of this explosion.
Enigmatic timber scarcity in Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages as first recognized by dender-pioneer Ernest Hollstein (1918-1988) "No sites exist anywhere with uninterrupted timber specimen from about 1000 CE backwards to Imperial Antiquity(1st-3rd c.). which is why the dendro-chronologies for Ancient Rome and, thereby the entire first millennium are in disarray. Since the very existence of the chronology periods without wood samples was never doubted by the researchers, nobody started to question our textbook chronology. Instead, out of stratigraphic context, scholars searched for wood samples in wells or moors to fill the irritating gaps. In addition, identical reign sequences were used twice in a row to gamer more years. Therefor, "all dendrochronological datings done on West Roman time wood is wrong by some unknown number of years"(") th-cam.com/video/c876lPZ-UZU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PlanetAmnesia
That's simply not true. There are DOZENS! And they're academically non-denominational. Where on earth did you get your facts?
@@Prospro8 My information comes from University prospectus lists of degree courses.
Sad portion of English history
Very enjoyable, scholarly talk. Thank you. G Ire
Please please talk a little faster
I am delighted to have come across this talk. G Ire
A few years ago I visited a priory which had been dissolved before the Dissolution got going (there were only a couple of nuns left and perhaps their character wasn't great). Nothing was left of the buildings but piles of flints and maybe a cellar BUT the land was handed over to a Cambridge college which took possession of its records--so the records exist but not the building. I also visited the wonderful church at Romsey, which was part of an abbey of nuns at the time of the Dissolution; the townspeople petitioned to keep the church, which they had been using along with the nuns, and it still stands, a beautiful place of worship with an active congregation. However, all the abbey's records up to that time were completely lost, so the earliest document is the sealed deed (?) of Henry VIII granting the church to the people. I really enjoyed this lecture, which fits well with what I learned, i.e, that each case was different.
Is there a note that for all their wealth, it seems like the monasteries would have been inhabited by sons of local families and were not “driven by profit motive” as we know it today.
Greater poverty and starvation followed. Cities were inundated with poor and diseased people. The London plague and Great Fire followed in the next century. This is no coincidence.
I am surprised with the lack of reasoable historical conclusions. I am from from a dual family background. However, I am a person from IRELAND and cannot see how one can ignore what was taking place under his control in IRELAND. I mean parallel matters that should be taken for consideration.
(Rarely happens. England is taken to be the 'prime'/ leafing location, historically speaking, imo). G Ire
What an inadequate PowerPoint presentation! For too long a white plate only, with stuttering additions of words and text - distracting from (not reinforcing) the painfully slow diction of the speaker. Points made but not expanded upon or explained adequately - for example, the 1902 historian's view that the Dissolution might be viewed as a step towards eventual civil democratisation: just passed over without explanation. Yet one could just as easily opine (and with greater reason, I think) that the Dissolution was a necessary precondition for increasing Tudor and Stewart absolutism, only stopped in its tracks by political the Calvinism of Oliver Cromwell and others - truly, "No Bishop; No King" put into practice. Indeed, religion as such seems wholly absent from this talk. Most unsatisfactory, really...
The lecture was by an eminent professor and scholar.
@@timguile8063 Then we might reasonably have expected a superior product, imho. I suppose "eminence" can be an elastic standard, the worth of which ranking is dependent on one's own informed judgement. If I was a student in the classroom, I would have had questions to ask and not be put off by any "eminent" lecturer's pre-announced status. Even Homer nodded, as they say...
We did have to pay for the British Navey.
Thank you❤
You've certainly given me to think about the Dissolution differently. What I can't understand is - Why? What was the point of it all?
The power and wealth of the monasteries overshadowed that of king and government. The owned most English land. The king needed money for warfare and he wanted to have more power over the Church. The monasteries blocked him. But also, they were waning as the medieval era was coming to an end.
@@rogeryoung5180all this. Plus it was perfect timing for the mass sacking after breaking from Rome. As an extension of making himself master of the church, he made himself master of their land/wealth.
The short answer -
The heart of it is that Henry wanted the monasteries' lands mostly to sell off to fund his wars and dynastic ambitions vis-a-vis France and the Empire.
The gold (and lead!) he stripped from the great monastic establishments were useful and much-needed accretions to his treasury - often disguised as reforming iconoclastic dismantling of "superstitious" and "popish" abuses - witness the stripping and destruction of Becket's tomb.
The lands Henry acquired could be used to reward his courtiers and favourites, and secure their commitment to his new Protestant order - even Mary subsequently could not reverse the grants.
The destruction of the monastic orders per se removed organisations with overseas loyalties and connections, usually terminating in Rome and the Holy See (unacceptable to Henry).
Narcissistic Greed from the Gout Ridden King!! He needed a piggy bank for his 55 palaces he built as well as all the wars he dragged Britain into! 😮😮😮
Henry gained, courtiers and landowners gained and evangelical radicals gained.
If the TLM is forbidden for now we must suffer the NO with a sense of love and reparation. Just our resistance will be sand in the shoe of the modernist. We are called to carry our cross and offer up our sufferings in reparation. There is scripture on this.
It was explained to me by a Catholic friend who was involved in the sale of a diocese from one order to another. The income generated was a central issue...these are commercial enterprises. He was shocked because it's all hidden by the religious image.
Don’t understand what you mean
@@timguile8063 It means different orders within the church (like Franciscans or Dominicans) can buy or sell their centres to each other. The price being determined according to the income a centre can earn, like selling a business. At least this is how it was explained to me.
@@JohnBurman-l2l Monks and Nuns engage in commercial activities like beer making, making religious items, and farming, to support themselves. It's not surprising that they take the ability of a property to generate income into account when purchasing new property.
I read that Henry had to deal with plague and drought and the Church had a lot of acres which had been left fallow so he had to take them over. The provison of food for the survivors of disease and drought meant he had to get hold of good land for crops and grazing which the monasteries had acquired from past bequests. When given to God they could not be sold was the legal situation.!
They hadn’t begun to fail? Arguably they’d been failing for a long time. I shudder imagining the amount of financial & sexual abuse that went thru these communities.
Nonsense! I'm not even catholic but I recognise this as current propaganda .
What garbage.
You should shudder more of the abuse that occurs in families, but is kept under cover. You wear your Catholicism like a worn out cheap dress.
@@mavisemberson8737 lol current propaganda 👍🏻 Sure the corruption is totally made up
A very one sided view and not supported by the record . Undoubtedly where you have people you have failures ,same in my neck of woods in nursing and medecine. But does not take away from the massive amount of good they did in society.