Complaints about being ‘unpopular’ from guys who have hundreds of hook ups and some relationships ring very hollow - thx to Meng for trying to keep it real.
👍 Indeed. Assuming that one "ought to be more desirable if not for the prejudices of the natives" (in whose country one is a guest) sounds more like narcissism and entitlement than understanding. Agreed... 🙄
Looks like you've spun what they said into a different narrative, putting words in their mouths. Jumping to narcissism is pretty unfair, IMO. Sounds like you're saying "they're a guest in the country, they should be grateful for whatever they get and stop complaining, cause we have even less." Is that what you're saying? @@danny-taenzer No matter how they look to you, they have feelings and get rejected too. Sharing about their rejections and experiences as not the dominant beauty standard doesn't make them entitled IMO. You can have successes and the rejections can still hurt. I don't think you need to be an 80-year-old troll living under a bridge to have the right to complain.
@@andresrl01yep. American exceptionalism on full display here. I don't blame Japanese for wanting more options, after all Asia is the most populous region of the world (80%) , and hence very competitive - even in dating
We just tend to be super shallow and idiolize people who are ridiculously produced and live in a vanity cycle and ignore half the regular people who are interested in us. If you get 100 messages but only like 3 people who message you, you are not unpopular, you are picky sis. And most of us are.
this is not a cancellation, but certain people be acting like they're new. we don't have this conversation as much in the west, but NYC is almost as population dense as Tokyo and gays have "no fats, fems, Blacks/Asians" in their grindr profiles. i don't see why people would think it was any different in Japan. Anyway good on Meng and Akio for expressing how it is to be gay and Asian in the west.
@@user-hm4jm1cy7m I disagree, if someone isn't your taste when they message you, either ignore them or tell them you're not interested. To have that sort of thing in your profile is more-so to feed your ego. Essentially saying you're so popular, you can't be bothered with 'those' kinds of people messaging you.
Same in Brazil... when people talk about men being trash it doesn't exclude us gays... and I think we gays are more narcissistic than the average straight guy... the amount of gay couples who look the same and could pass as siblings is proof of that... also identical twins porn is disgustingly popular
@@gc6240 nah.. people are too easily offended now.. thats where all this comes from. I dont care if someone is offended by something that should not offend them.. im tired of everyone pushing their "feelings" on me anf thinking they can govern the very words that come out of my mouth... also... in the context of this video and leftist culture in general is what I was addressing.. stating your likes or dislikes is always painted with "racism" which is what is find most annoying and toxic. Its not racism so grow some skin and stop your cry bullying.
“Popular” in the gay community is this unattainable, ill-defined, and nebulous goal. It’s almost as if we are comparing ourselves to this amalgamation of hotness and sex formed from a conglomeration of all of our gay experiences (clubs, ig, porn). The goal is unattainable because it isn’t possible. That’s why I think we still feel unpopular even though we are objectively speaking not unpopular.
I'm living in a City for decades that has world-class models, athletes, actors from stage and film, hustlers and prostitutes for a $1000 a might, or more, television performers, dancers, world-renound singers, and fabulous high school boys and college boys and university boys who challenge ever notion of "incredibly good-looking." Even regular guys you see in restaurants or stores or parks, just walking down the street, can be extremely attractive, extremely desirable, extremely sexy. There are groups here like "The 400" who are beyond good-looking, with great jobs and even greater trust funds. Boxes of money are extremely popular, extremely sexy. With money, you can always buy friends. Theses guys score more often than me. And you. They set the bar on "popular." Their suitors and dates and boy friends are the creme de la creme, maybe the guy you just saw in the latest Calvin Klein ad. That's good for airplane flights to the ports of the world. Plus clothes, plus dinner, plus suck n fuck, three times a day. Earn your keep, Big Boy, make me a woman. They get what they want. So imagine one of them being in a place where no one knows anything about them. They might be intimidating because of their looks. But you don't know about their job title. Or their address. Or their title. They might be frustrated by their wants and desires in Souvlakia, or Milan, or Kiamora. It's possible. But many rich people have connections, pimps, to do all the leg work. Still, these 400 Boys aren't as popular as they are back at home base. They get rejected by their unfamiliarity. What's famous in my town may not look like a hot Korean boy band. That can cost you dates. Keep imagining. Many of the "too good to be true" stories are not fabrications. Maybe in Pontiac, Michigan. But not in my town.
Initially, I thought that discrimination due to "uglyphobia" was a thing in Brazilian culture. But when I lived in Canada, both in a French-speaking and an English-speaking province, I noticed that discrimination if you don't have a pretty or beautiful face is something very common in the gay world. It is a shame that a social group, already the target of so much discrimination, has discriminatory attitudes in the same way.
As a black gay man who has been to 13 countries, its beyond sad (everyplace is the same). We have our rainbow flag and yet dealing with prejudice in all gay communities. The best way forward, is to keep educating each other and lead by example. Great video !
Keep “educating” people all you want but you can’t force people to have certain preferences just because you fall into a category they don’t like. Basically you’ll end up sounding like you’re annoyed that you like someone and they don’t like you back. That’s as bad as trans people saying you’re transphobic or fat people saying you’re fat phobic if you don’t date them even if you’re friends with them
@@Chrysobubulleyou are showing your shallowness. You assume every gay man is looking for sex only. As a black gay man into dating, The only time a person of another race (particularly white men) hit me up is to fetishize me for their BBC fantasy regardless of the fact I state I am looking to date. Then they get upset when I turn them down, usually reverting to name calling and the obligatory N word in extreme cases. Step outside your bubble for moment, yeah?
One thing you guys didn't touch on too much is to what extent natives are looking for long-term relationships with foreigners vs. hookups. Like Meng said, you guys all do seem pretty popular in terms of getting a hookup when you want but how hard comparatively is it to find a serious partner as a foreigner?
Thanks for raising this - I was thinking as well that there are lots of different shades of interaction - casual gym chat, neighbors, one-time hookup, relationship. As far as general attraction goes, looks, culture, language all come into play. It's a complex topic and good to keep discussing. I've lived in Japan, England, Hong Kong, California - fitting into each one is like subway surfing. That's part of the fun, though.
@@sugarzblossom8168 "It's complicated," of course. But as a young white man, in Japan I stood out, but felt like an awkward oddity and found that the perceived cultural differences often got in the way even of casual friendships; in England I blended in (until I opened my mouth) to the point of being invisible, in Hong Kong I got attention by those who were into the exotic and ignored by those who found foreigners distasteful; back in California now I'm old enough to be invisible. Different people approach each other differently of course - some are drawn to the unfamiliar as it seems interesting; others find that outside their comfort zone and don't care to dive in.
As an Asian who has spent my entire life in the US, I couldn't even begin to relate to the idea of being "popular" or even "welcomed" in any community. Asian men are unconditionally at the very bottom rung of the (non-financial) social hierarchy in the US; we are always on the outside looking in, with very rare exceptions. I guess it works the same way, but in the opposite direction in Japan.
Depends. If you had blue eyes and blond hair, would you talk to some of the people who find that attractive in you ? How about people who find your black hair and brown eyes .... (and Asian heritage/race ) attractive. ? If one of the reasons people find you attractive is that you are Asian, I'd encourage you to talk a little with them to find out if they are not total jerks/Rice Queens. 🙂
Odd tid bits you can pick up as a whore who reads: In America, the very tip top of the money ladder is occupied by certain couple combinations.Those who earn the most money are (#1) White Men/Asian Wives. (#2) top wage earners are Asian Men/White Wives.
@@mjohnson9563 Asian Men "freeze us out." I think, and I guess you people will look down on me, I think Asian people are really interesting looking in New York. For so long they stayed in the Chinatown ghetto. At some point the younger Asian student crowd began showing up on my Street and nearby Avenues. I fainted the day I saw my first tall Asian boy. Hunk with a great complexion. Oddly enough, I am in a similar dilemma with the ghettoized trans-guy community (I'm not in the least interested in the guys to girls thing). I don't know any trans-guys to educate me. I read a lot, but I don't know much about Russian nobility either. I like the "horse's mouth" approach. I know black men better, they keep dragging me into DL scenarios, and I am a jealous troll type about other women. I must be giving him something she ain't giving him, or maybe, like most black men, he just likes sex, and the source is not that big a deal. White men in America have hang ups about boy sex, but macho brothers in other communities do it with their own brothers all the time, as well as your Uncle's brother. Uncles are very popular in all circles.
Yes let’s take all the beautiful men who are in relationships with body counts in the triple digits and complain about how we’re “unpopular”. This is victim mentality and greed “why did that one hot guy not want me?”. I love your videos Tokyo BTM but the people you brought on here I don’t think we’re the right group to bring on for this topic. We get it, you guys are hot. No we can’t feel sorry for you because you get more than enough attention. There’s even a form of white privilege here in Japan be side there are many who idolize Foreign men and culture and give you a pass on many things. It’s really frustrating to hear these beautiful gays complain.
@@bryanmata7198 Agree. And the redhead guy in green shirt and the black guy are so beyond annoyingly obnoxious with their sense of entitlement. They think just because they have "hot" body ( which to me are just basic) and can speak Japanese, they expect the gay guys here in Japan to throw themselves at their feet !😅😅😅
I’ve been writing and deleting paragraphs trying to pick my words for about an hour! Lol What I want to say is I think the trick to getting what you want is letting it come to you. I’ve met some great attractive Japanese and foreigner guys in Japan because they pursued me. Sure there is something to being active in your love life and going for what you want, but you also want someone who wants you back. Also, TOKYO BTTM, let me just say not one of your friends you’ve had on the show isn’t an attractive social person fully capable of finding love in Japan. I know we all have different/similar experiences but you did take 3 men in relationships and ask them why they’re not getting enough attention 🙃 BTTM line: I think you have to get dressed for you, go out for you, allow yourself to be seen because you want to be seen, and the right types will gravitate towards you. Everyone else is background.
I definitely think Akio hits it right on the nose with the 'not wanting to make a fool of themselves'. Being Asian myself, we generally want to 'save face' so making mistakes (whether in speaking, etc) in front of others seems like a nightmare, especially in front of a foreigner, so they'd much prefer to ice people out so they don't have to be put in that situation in the first place. Such an interesting conversation!
Keep talking, I don't know anything about the Asian mindset. You've frozen me out. Hearing real people explain real things is better than a real book explaining things. I wish black people would offer up more inside stuff too. We still need to have "a" conversation.
Loved this. You guys should have more episodes like this "Nitori Sofa Talk" episode! I would only add that although your group is diverse, you guys all appear to be fit to slender body type, so I'd be curious if people in other body type ranges have similar experiences. Anyway, great episode!
At times the criticism sounds like entitlement- just because you speak the language well doesn’t necessarily mean people will become more interested. Japan is quite homogenous and what they deem as attractive just might not be you (and obviously that would not be the case back in their home country)
Yes it has that kind of 'I feel that I'm on the top of the gay hierarchy' and I speak Japanese, so why arent they flocking to me? Well, maybe because you are in the minority and Japanese have very particular tastes and find different things attractive/hot.
True, and also, when foreigners ubiquitously experience indifference from Japanese natives, there's a valid point to be made about exclusive beauty standards. I also don't know if it's true to say that Japan is homogeneous. I understand Japan to be harmonious, not homogeneous.
Thank you for this. I feel the same but didn't know how to put it into words, just whatever Carlton said gives me an ick. I understand the frustration, but being an Asian in America and having experience all kinds of prejudice and discrimination, I just want to yell 'no Carlton, it's not prejudice, you might just look odd/exotic to Japanese people'
@@satananal4395 I think Japan is considered one of the more homogeneous societies in the world in the sense that the racial composition is very uniform (97%-98.5% ethnic Japanese), as well as linguistically. Unlike Singapore, there's also religious homogeneity (Shintoism & Buddhism) and similar cultural norms simply due to a lack of diversity.
As an 'Older' gay (male) American, my personal experience has led me to believe that the gay male community at large (worldwide) is one of the most critically biased groups there are. And it hurts me to my soul to even say that. I believe that stereotyping exists in the gay community to a hypocritical level and your conversations supports that suggestion. Not to be a Debbie Downer, just stating some facts as I see them. I think this is one to the more difficult, yet long overdue group of topics you have presented, and I love you guys for it. And I guess the cat's out of the bag ...Andrew admits that he's a grower and not a shower! 🍆Hahaha Cheers All.
As another "older" male, I have to agree with you on that point. Ageism is a real thing, which is not surprising in a community that worships the cult of the body to an almost fascistic degree. It's further emphasised by the odd desire to compartmentalise people into rigid identity roles.
I had the a different experience: in Canada, I feel an intense pressure to conform to straight-acting male beauty standards in order to seem "attractive", but in Japan I felt free to be myself and let those who were interested in me (viewing me as an "exotic foreigner") approach me. I wouldn't say I was "popular" in Japan, but I certainly experienced greater freedom of expression and had a lot more sex.
When you are getting older it gets harder and harder to find someone who you want to spend time together. The main reason is that your list is getting longer as you age. So it doesn’t really matter whether you are popular or not. Because once you are getting older occasionally you will feel some insecurities whether you are popular or not.
oh yeah, as one ages one knows themselves a bit better and hence would have more deal breakers haha 😅. That said , this video is a great conversation starter, hope they start a series here or on tiktok!
Thank you so much for this video!! I've been in Japan for a month and I have already shared some of your experiences and feelings as a black gay man. I'm hoping it get better. Great conversation guy!
I was smiling the whole video because it felt like meeting up with a group of like-minded friends. I do agree with so many of the points made!! It's refreshing to hear from people who've lived in Japan for a long time and really experienced it. I think that a lot of Japanese people do see non-Asians as a different species. It's a bit like watching a panther at the zoo: you can find it beautiful, a little scary, be interested in its background, but you will never think about f*ck*ng or romancing it (and if you do, you're SICK). Despite this, I do believe that diversity is very slowly but surely growing in Japan and I hope that you guys will have less infuriating experiences. But it sure feels good to VENT. Thank you for the video!❤
I think you all handled a sensitive topic honestly but with a good dose of humor. A lot of newbies who go to Japan after watching a 60-second TikTok that "Foreigners are popular in Japan!" are in for a big surprise...
That cognitive dissonance thing is real. I’m Black American and when I encounter people who speak Spanish and are struggling speaking English I will respond in perfect Spanish and it just does not compute. They will still struggle in English or be shocked and ask how I’m the world do I speak Spanish. Even though there are Afro-Latinos 😂
I don't know if you stated that you are afro-latino or not. But I find that when an English speaker speaks spanish(even as you said perfect) it still sounds off. So some sound just like the Spanish person trying to speak English. Also some want to speak English to get better at it. Because it helps.
Well they want to keep practicing the spanish. Black spanish speaker are not a shock they are a lot (specially in the caribbean isles, such as cuba, Dominican republic, puerto rico etc). So its weird they reacted in shock. It would believe it if you were Asian that is way rarer.
Totally being cancelled....Not! I love how you all set the very real tone that they might not be very well received as a gay foreigner. I found myself laughing along with you guys so much this video. While the topic is uncomfortable the atmosphere you 5 generated was very comfortable. ❤Thank you for all the hard work and candid honesty.
This is awesome topic to be discussed more! Well done guys ! I say it as a person who has very complex identity - born in Japan, grew up in NYC & London, and lived in Sydney, Auckland, and now in San Francisco. It was so fascinating to hear your views and experiences because it is “sort of” opposite but so very similar to what I have experienced in my life! One thing I have learnt is that less labels you give to yourself and others, easier your and others life gets. But this does not mean societies will accept it which is completely another matter.
I think a simple fact is that no matter where you are, overwhelmingly, people prefer what they know to what they don't know. I see so many couples who are clones of each other, and it's not a coincidence. Many prefer people that look like them, behave like them, have the same experiences as them, and more. You all seem like rare exceptions in that you are the kinds of people who are willing to move away from home and go experience things outside of your norm culturally, but that is NOT the majority of people, and especially in such a homogeneous country like Japan. Also, being gay in Japan already makes one not conform in a very conformist type society. It may be perceived as slipping further down the conformity scale to date foreigners.
That applies to straight guys too, you can see 4 or 5 of them all dressed in the exact same style, all act the same, same haircut, that goes for any types of groups. I often wonder if the couples who look the same
OK, first, apology for my low level of writing English skill but there's lots to cover and it was a very interesting conversation and a topic that totally relates to me personally as well as I'm a Japanese born and raised (mostly) Japanese gay guy living in Canada for 30 years now and I have experienced and still am in the both worlds. There are so many things I want to comment about but to make my comments short(er), I will just cherry pick here. First, I want to comment on what Carlton was talking about how he's been making so much effort and trying to get as closer as possible to Japanese people, learning and being able to speak Japanese now but he still gets some sense of segregation or gaps in between himself and Japanese people regardless of his efforts. He's been always looked at as a "Gaikokujin" or a foreigner no matter how well he can speak and interact with Japanese people. Sad truth. So from that bitter experiences he mentioned that Japanese people are somewhat "prejudice" and I totally admit that is true. Maybe not with an intention but in the end, it's the same thing, same outcome(prejudice). that might unfortunately never change or it might take another century or two to begin to see a slight change if that will ever happen. There is a four Kanji word in Japanese says "Wakon Yosai" (和魂洋才）it came from during the revolution era in Japan after the Shogun era started to fade and new more Western modern cultures started to flourish in Japan. The essence is that Japanese person (people) never forgets their Japanese soul and spirit within but learning and adopting more foreign (Western) cultures and ideology and so on. And you know what, to this day after so many decades or centuries of evolutions in Japan particularly so many phases of modernizations throughout the Japan history, keep adopting and seeking for whole bunch of stuff from Western cultures among other cultures from other part of the world, if you would hypothetically split a typical everyday Japanese person into half, you will most likely to find their "Japanese spirit and soul" placed in their core no matter what. Perhaps more than 90% of them. So this is something that we carry in our soul and spirit no matter a Japanese person says he/she loves American or European cultures and they are totally living in the culture outside Japan. The key is that as long as they were born and raised and lived most of their life in Japan and within Japanese society, their "Wakon Yosai" never goes away. And funny thing is, most of them(us Japanese) are not aware of this unique hidden characteristic themselves. So this is in a way showing their Japan island like small, rather narrow minded and only "Japanese way" of thinking is subconsciously present sometimes heavily and it shows it clearly especially to foreigners who live long enough in Japan and wondering like Carlton's restaurant scenario case for an example. The Japanese waiter/-ess tends to (subconsciously feel more comfortable) talking to either a Japanese or Japanese looking customer even if he/she might be or could be still a foreigner. That's how their mentality works unfortunately. There was many times when I was still in Japan, in the exact same situation with a foreign friend, when he was ordering food in Japanese to the waitress/waiter but when she/he was repeating the order, she/he would look at only my face. Also when he would ask about the menu in Japanese yet still they would look at me and answering to me but rudely not to him. So I had to tell them to look at him and answer to him not to me because he is the one talking to you. As you can see and you guys already know, Japanese people still need to learn and there's still a long way ahead to be in the "international" standard. Again, "Wakon Yosai" spirit is preventing from that. And another very huge point I wanted to talk about is for both Carlton and Cris experiences (and Andrew as a white person) as a gay person. When it comes to hooking up with Japanese guy(s) for whatever the purpose may be as long as "sex" is in the equation and horizon, or at least that's what they perceive when being approached by, many Japanese guys particularly bottoms and vers/bottoms who had 0 or only a little experiences with primarily non typical Asian looking foreigners automatically assume that those "foreigners" or 'Gaijin" are tops first of all and second, they are with huge dicks and maybe rough so they are "yabai". They could tear them apart and very painful...etc. Yeah, shaking my head. Some of them even go further and have a misconception or simply pure ignorance that foreigners are too wild and maybe dangerous or scary in different levels even from health (STIs) standpoint. Have you heard of that before?? Yes, again as Carlton said, Japanese are "prejudice" or even racists. Well, doesn't racist or prejudice come from "lack of education" = ignorance? So exactly that with many Japanese gay guys when it comes to having sex with foreigners. That's why you always wonder but why they have that weird avoiding behaviours when you guys approach them in those contexts. But hold up, maybe just to give a benefit of the doubt, average sizes of dicks in my own experience and observation (after so many astronomical numbers of dicks I have consumed in my more than a half of a century of my old ass life) I would say that there are more bigger dicks with non Japanese or maybe non Asian foreigners than Japanese guys. Objection or true? So partly their assumption is right. And not only that but many of those Japanese bottoms have tighter holes from my experience as well. It's maybe the biological and anatomical fact and it's their preventative and survival instinct kick in psychologically to protect them from getting hurt so they are not so friendly or open towards gay foreigners when it comes to going to bed. As I've been living in Canada for so long and I have been actually asked by quite numbers of Japanese guys whether "gaijin" have big dicks or if I'm not afraid of them...etc. So definitely there's a misunderstanding and ignorance there. They are still experiencing themselves that "Sakoku" era or "locked up Japan against foreign men" time of our history. But don't be discouraged because there are more and more Japanese gay guys wanting and looking for more foreigners like I used to be. (I'm now more "buffet style" where I eat whatever the feast is served! LOL) Thanks for reading thus far!! Oh by the way, I think I still experience the reverse gay prejudice thing in Canada (against Asian guys) not as prevalent as it used to 10, 20 years ago though... It is what it is...
You: "apology for my low level of writing English skill" Also you: * writes an essay length comment in amazing english * You really need to stop being so hard on yourself, your english is great!😊
Oh my stars ✨ , let's dive into this gem of a statement! First things first, well done, the way you kicked off - it's like a round of applause 🤣. And that humble start with "my low level of writing English" at the ripe age of 50-plus, that's a whole new level of throwing shade without lifting a finger. Bravo, bravo! 👏😂 Now, let's talk about Asia, shall we? It's like a mixed bag of prejudice, racism, and skin tone biases - it's like they're playing a game of "Let's See Who Can Win at Discrimination!" Japan, Korea, and China are all in the race, but, oh, China's got a wild card up its sleeve - if there's a good deal, they'll make it so they can strut around like they're the saviors of the universe. Now, let's talk attraction - Asians are cute, but not quite "orgasmic" (because apparently, they need to level up their game, right?). And let's not even get started on the short-sightedness - whether it's culture or plain old ignorance, it's all just one big mess. But you know what's universal? Kindness! And in Asia, they've got this secret weapon called "Asian wickedness," and it's like a bombshell revelation - 🤯. Despite all those romantic and educational series they put out, when it comes to individual wickedness and "fakeness," it's like so bad I want to sprint to the nearest airport to escape the drama! It's a wild world out there, 😄✈️ back to the west despite missing the east so much and Asia I love you 💕 not fake or pretending, if only you guys could be a tinny but more open and kinder without the fluff or trying to be pretend to be polite but more real. ❤🎉😂😊
@@edward6633nahhh you conflate pretending to be polite with cultural etiquette in Asia. It's mainly a conservative society with historically prescribed social interactions. In NY, it's also fairly not uncommon for your classmates to say let's grab a drink sometime and one never hears from them again. And this is coming from a native Finnish, maybe us Scandinavians are more socially communal too 😅
I appreciate where you're coming from, but I said what I said! Now, gurl, go get a drink and twerk those hips. Now enjoy the party. 😎🥳✌ @@zacharycohen9985
Agreed....... fantastic episode! And I think you just scratched the surface of the issues. For instance, you didn't discuss the perception of most foreign gays in Japan being out while native Japanese guys might be vastly more in the closet.
hey, this is my favorite episode so far, even surpassing Meng's love hotel haha. This was so fun and so much great insight in this spicy conversation among friends. Would love to see more of these honest convos on your channel. hugs from LA! ♥
Hello. was a former part time ESL teacher here in PH and I had face-to-face classes with Japanese students (high school to Uni age-level). One thing I learned/discovered about Japanese behavior/ethos is this: Japanese people strictly adhere to norms although they admit some of them don't have any rhyme or reason. If they don't like you, it doesn't mean something's unacceptable on your end, it only means they are used to what they're used to. So if they prefer someone who looks like them, even if you speak their language, it doesn't mean they don't like you. They are just more comfortable with those who look Asian. They're also not accustomed to being a stand out/be very vocal about change because those are normally considered unacceptable and are mere sore thumbs. So to avoid being tagged like that, they often just follow societal norms. And yes, just like in other countries, no matter how long you've stayed in Japan, or how knowledgeable you are about their culture and language, there's still a certain level of separation/divide because you're not one of them. Even if you're a well loved teacher (much more for this because students have high regards for teachers!) This is quite evident for Filipinos because of Japanese people's shame regarding the w/ar and how their society looked at Filipinas who worked in different red light districts during the 90's
This was one of many enjoyable videos on your channel. I feel like there's much to still uncover and describe when it comes to exploring the living experiences of individuals who are trying to settle into a different tribe than the one they have come from. Within a world whose populations are all tribal by nature, there are going to be unique challenges for those who leave their tribe to join another. Subsequently, tribes challenge their own in a variety of ways; that is already a baseline "expectation" when evaluating someone who wants to merge with the tribe but originates from outside the tribe. Modern technology has allowed these types of stories to be more broadly shared, it is up to each person who consumes this type of content to determine for themselves if they want to modify their own way of living. Thank you for putting this conversation out here.
So I'm a white-passing mixed-race filipino in Cebu so I take a lot of short trips around Asia since it's easy to get to (heading to tawian pride in a couple of weeks) and I really feel that Japan has much stronger prejudice against foreigners for hookups than the other places in Asia I've been to. Here in the Philippines, being a foreigner will make you the most popular guy on the apps, but even going to other places like Taipei, Hong Kong, Singapore, I get a *lot* of attention from local guys. When I go to Tokyo (I haven't been elsewhere but planning Osaka/Kyoto next year), I don't have a problem hooking up, but all the guys blowing up my apps are tourists or US armed forces. I'm the type that never makes the first move, so it's not about me getting responses, but more based on who makes the first move on me.
LOOOOVE this episode! As an anthropologist of Japan, I really enjoy this channel's content. Whenever I'm back to Tokyo I'd love to meet up with you guys!
There are many cultural and societal forces playing other than "they just don't find foreigners attractive." Japanese gay people still feel the pressure of needing to have a wife and children, an idea that we in the west have left a long time ago. Combined with the perception that foreigners in a country, especially Japan, are there only temporarily, results in a lot of people not even giving dating a chance. As for hookups, they are superficial in nature, so no one should take anything about it personally. It's hypocritical to have personal preferences for yourself and whine about not being other's type at the same time. Foreigners in any country are seen as a risk in cultural behavior and maybe even trustworthiness because they can go back to their country and could be more wild in the country they are visiting. I also think the top/bottom mottainai thing is not only based on if you're foreign, but also your appearance. In Japan, I was described as having a sweet face, while my body was somewhat (TMI) hairy. Most of the guys I talked to were tops and were contacting me with the intent to top me. So I think that ultimately, everyone has their own experience. Just remember to try to see the situation from different perspectives and to not take it personally. If you really want to be dating and be in a relationship, stop presenting yourself on sxx app in a sxxual way by showing your body, because it gives the idea that you are only in it for a hookup, and the superficial nature continues. If all else fails, just start manifesting and writing down your ideal features and character in a lover. If you end up with a Japanese person, most likely they are internationalized and have less ultra-Japanese mindsets, and will be more open-minded and accepting of your behavior and personality.
Love this conversation. Truthfully I'm a 5'8 1/2 or 5'9" and I like bottom guys who are taller or larger than me but I think that is the general preconceived notion that those who are taller assumes the role of the top.
This convo just showed that the gym princess don't know how to deal with rejection 3:50 "People don't gravitate towards me" What are you girl.. the sun?
Great conversation. I've never lived in Japan but I have visited over 4 times and I've always enjoyed the locals. For me, in terms of dating/hookups, I got what I was looking for... I didn't use apps. Met everyone in person. Prejudice and racism can unfortunately be found everywhere. Stand tall and just be you. The person(s) you need in your life will come when it's time.
From a guy who’s born and raised in Los Angeles, has traveled and has friends all over the country it’s good to hear regardless of where you go, we all have similar experiences. We all are selective, all of us don’t get the attention we feel we deserve (regardless of how good we think we look) and all get ignored on apps by the ones we want and bombarded by attention from people we would never give the time of day. I find it interesting that in Japan foreigners aren’t more fetishized, like they are here in America. I’m guessing it’s because of the shyness and humility of the culture.
this is such a good video, having conversations like these are so informative and eye opening. make more videos! y’all should start a podcast and bring in guests weekly.
White guy in the green shirt saying that looking like a fit Japanese makes a world of a difference is correct. To give you a visual, I look Japanese and fit right into the circuit scene and have dated gogo-boys, inside and outside of Japan. In fact, I didn't even speak any Japanese on my first few trips to Tokyo, yet I felt more love and warmth from Japanese people than I have anywhere else. It was pretty obvious to me that looking Japanese, or native to any land, opened a lot of doors and a lot of hearts. I've never experienced that anywhere outside of Japan.
If you’ve been to some SA and SEA countries, looking native actually can close more doors than you’d like to believe. By looking native I specifically refer to darker skin tone.
I'm Filipino American and have felt more well received in the Philippines than I ever have in the states. I'm not dark, but I'm not that light either. But you're right, colorism is very real and does factor with prejudice unfortunately.@@chatnoire89
So so so much fun and a massive THANK YOU THANK YOU for the proper accurate subtitles. It makes it so inclusive because a real rapid gay chat can get hard to follow with less than perfect hearing and it's wonderful not to be missing out. 🎉❤
Re: the guy who won’t approach in public but will approach in private Won’t this be more because of saving face and the shame of possible rejection? I’m not sure how prevalent the whole honor/shame thing and saving face in Japan is, but it is a somewhat prevalent thing in Asia. So perhaps the guy didn’t approach you publicly because if you reject him then the rejection is public and that’s shameful, but has more confidence to approach you in private because then, if he gets rejected no ones will witness the rejection thus he saves face?
Living in Japan for almost 8 years I have to say that I wouldn't say foreigners are unpopular in Japan in general. I myself don't have issues finding guys who I find attractive and who are attracted to me but the issue is that I can't find someone who isn't just into sex but an actually reliable and faithful partner - which is a universial issue, I guess. Especially, a monogamous longterm relationship with someone who can meet more than every other week and who doesn't just want to bottom... nowhere to be found... yet ^.^"
This is really interesting to hear from another part of the world, I'm a half Japanese, half white New Zealander and I feel I get ignored because I don't look "completely" white. There is definitely a hierarchy of races over here as well with non-whites being fetishized. Moreso hookup culture as opposed to the dating culture which I find to be slightly different.
What a wonderful conversation. Openness, honesty, and valid points and opinions made by all participants. I do appreciate the candor of each person to tell their experiences from their point of view. I do think that there are some cultural nuances on both sides in need of unpacking. Thank you for starting this dialogue. It is important for both sides to understand the ideas and perceptions of others and to confront their own biases and beliefs. Everyone has work to do.
I love this honest conversation ❤❤ these convos need to happen more in the gay community. Especially with the race preference and blatant racism disguised as "preference". I lost a lot of weight prior to my trip to Japan and felt kind of good about myself but didn't really have that "fun" I was hoping for 😅. Then again I don't radiant confidence, I look like a scared bunny everywhere I go. This time I'm bulking up prior to going and wondering what my experience will be like this time ..
Meng s true to himself, but so does every guy in this interesting nd honest conversation 🙌 when Aiko said: showing muscles is not an issue but when showing face, they cutt off. Its sad but it s what it is. Thanks guys for giving yours perspectives nd setting various nationalities with different backgrounds 💋x
I can completely relate in a way. I'm currently studying medicine abroad in the Caribbean and on my Island there are about 4 guys on tinder. There is not even a single gay venue. Coming from New York, this is a big change and it's really easy to fall into the trap of feeling lonely. I miss my gays. #Struggle
This video has so much to unpack. But one thing that bothers me most is Carlton’s comment of how he’s practically fluent but has a hard time getting into the Japanese community but a person he knows who presents Japanese but speaks only conversational Japanese get accommodations and was granted entry. As if this person maybe isn’t actually a good person and or meshed will with a certain group of friends. This wasn’t even a comment on attraction but community. If you couldn’t get into a certain friend group, but he did, maybe he just got along with them better than you did and has nothing to do with race. You’re diminishing the value of his friendship with those people and I think that’s pretty rough. Some people just aren’t into some people whether it’s due to not being their type (race or personality otherwise), or having a personality that meshes well with others. It just all sounds so egotistical and self-absorbed to think “I’m attractive and speak fluent Japanese. Why doesn’t everyone love me and give me attention”. Just because a few people you’re into turn you down here and there doesn’t mean you’re unpopular. You’re just not what that individual is looking for. When your numbers are triple digits and still complaining it’s like Meng said…”greedy”. As a half Japanese person raise overseas but moved later into my adulthood to japan, I worked hard for my friendships and relationships, and for Carlton just practically say it’s because I get an “accommodation” simply for my race rather than my personality or efforts in reaching out to make a community, is quite insulting.
I believe that the experiences discussed in the video are entirely valid and incredibly relatable. As someone from Southeast Asia, I've personally felt a heightened sense of desirability when traveling to other ASEAN countries like Thailand. This experience is undeniably true, relatable, and unfortunately uncomfortable. What resonated with me in the video was the acknowledgment that this issue exists in various places. Just because something is common doesn't justify it. Discussing these issues online can raise awareness and prompt individuals to consider how their actions impact the emotions of others. That being said, I also think this conversation can sometimes lead us down a somewhat pessimistic path. The truth is, no matter where we are, life can have its challenges. As humans, we are wired not to be satisfied, so we constantly seek improvement, whether it's in terms of attractiveness, wealth, or success. We forgot that years ago, we wanted to be in the position we are now. There will always be a seemingly better place with greener grass. To quote Dita Von Teese, "You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches." I believe it's essential to share a message of finding peace in the imperfect world we live in and accepting where we are while continuing to strive for self-improvement. While discussing this topic has its benefits, I wish it also addressed how to better cope with the universal feelings we all experience.
Despite the topic being a little unsettling at times with the sad racism, this was really one of the most fun videos I’ve watched in a while. Please bring these guys in more often! I had fun seeing the group dynamic with you folks, and watching you all discuss and have fun.
Akio hit the nail on the head when he said in western culture, the hierachy is that asian men are at the bottom. Meng was also right when he said that asians are treated like a fetish. As a gay asian man in America, I've also experienced being considered a fetish. And the reality is that depending on your culture, you have your own perference.
I think that on top of cultural norms the level of diversity around you when growing up plays a huge role in shaping who you're gonna be attracted to sexually as an adult. And that's independent of whom you might consciously find good-looking. Let's not forget that up until very recently the vast majority of the world was locally not diverse at all, and even today only the largest cities in any given country have a significant level of diversity. At least nowadays we get access to diversity through the media (but biased towards impossibly good-looking people, so for normal people it doesn't help in terms of self-confidence). But my experience has also been that sexual attraction is not set in stone and broadens over time. The more diversity I have been in contact with as an adult, the more my unconscious "sexual" brain catches up with my conscious "aesthetic" brain to find all sorts of people not just good-looking but also sexually attractive.
No wait, I fully understand where Meng is coming from in the conversation around "pickyness". The way I think about it, is being comfortable with many types of people/bodies is not the same as being comfortable with many types of men. For example, you can say "Well I'm not picky because I'm into bears, twinks, jocks, and etc.", but they still have to be 'hot' versions of those categories. You're into 'hot' bears, and 'hot' twinks, etc. etc. That's where I think the disconnect is when people who are not conventionally attractive hear people who are conventionally attractive say they're not picky.
I just stumbled upon the video and I think after watching all your testimonies I really do think that you guys deserve a big round a plus and what you have shared was really personal and yeah, it’s so profound in terms of relationship, wise, culture, wise, and human wise. The never ending question as to the quest for dating for gay guys in Japan, or anywhere around the world, is always going to be fundamental yet so intriguing and there are so many more frontiers waiting for us to explore. Again, thank you so much for your guys sharing and it was really interesting listening to all your talks!❤ (from Taiwan 🇹🇼)
Meng is a total ten to my eyes 😍 I think for the vast majority of people, hooking up or dating is not as easy as we think it should be. And I also reality check myself against the experience straight men have... in a month as gay men we can see more action with more partners than they often do in an entire lifetime. Do I wish more men my type would chase me instead of the other way around? Absolutely. Are there times when I go looking and don't find a match? Of course. But keeping with your metaphor about eating its also true we wont go hungry for long.
Each one of your positions are so relatable as an American born & raised Taiwanese heritage living in Amsterdam. Generally: Los Angeles - Not popular, but visible to men. Netherlands - Not popular, and not visible to men. Taiwan - Popular, but western vs. eastern cultural standards clash. - Popularity and appeal, like most things, comes down to what is considered familiar and mainstream to the wider audience. You won't consider yourself popular if the audience isn't open to ethnic and cultural diversity, even if some individuals appreciate you. - Every place is its own bubble of standards, and if we don't fit the standard, then we "werk" within our own personal bubble of fab and sexy. - In my experience, you don't have to be popular to be considered sexy, but you do have to feel comfortable within a society to feel sexy.
Interesting you said that about AMS... I feel invisible even as a white European there, they really prefer their own kind, and have strict 'standards', even us caucasians who are a 6.5-7 are totally iced out. They all want 9.5s and are willing to stay alone until they find one? lol
From what you are saying it sounds that Japanese gay culture is what western gay culture was back in the 90s. The other day I was watching that gay movie “The broken heart’s club” and I found myself commenting on how toxic the gay culture was to its own community members. LOL, I just realize that you guys could be that movie,😆 a bunch of diverse gay guys complaining about their looks, sex lives, their rank, their femininity vs their masculinity and generally their gay lives. I empathize and I understand your frustration. It’s harder for gay people to feel content when it comes to acceptance of any form, for obvious reasons.❤
I''ve seen that movie and depending on your friendship circles it can still ring true today. I remember the scene when the sister advises her gay brother Patrick to find another group of gay friends to help cheer him up and also the quote "Patrick, when you came out... you said it was because you couldn't live the rest of your life in misery. And I have never seen you more miserable."
Nothing has changed...maybe with social media and apps it is even more shallow as more gay clubs/establishments close in the West, the beauty standards reach an impossible steroid-injected level of buffness!
@@irememberla6460 I haven’t been out for years, have things really not changed? Hmm maybe the effects of this new wave of accepting and expressing our femininity that we are going thru wright now haven’t been fully formed yet. You know, with drag getting into mainstream and both straight and gay men embracing their feminine side appearance-wise. Also with the more representation that we are getting in the media I thought that things had already improved. Maybe we’ll see a change in a few years from now, hopefully. But i too have noticed the epidemic of steroid use making a comeback both in the straight and gay world.
When I was in my 20s and 30s living in SF I felt like I was near the top of the food chain. Muscled white guy hairy chest steroid using, I had sex frequently and was pursued constantly. Now I'm in my mid 50s, no longer gym bodied or steroid using, I have moved lower in terms of attention that I get. I feel like it's a natural process, our popularity and attention has peaks and valleys, but it's all irrelevant to the important thing which is being happy in ourselves.
_"I have missed so many karaoke invitations..."_ xD (lots of love from the UK) *EDIT:* I couldn't agree with Carlton more regarding the whole fetishization of Japan's "cultural innocence" or "purity" or whatever. Even if you ignore just how grossly inaccurate it is, it's also ironically insulting to Japanese people, these (mostly) white weebs desperately infantilizing an entire ethnic group and treat them like a collective Disney princess, instead a large, nebulous and complex bracket of humanity. Grinds my gears.
I'm an overweight raging homosexual, and body/beauty standards really piss me off. I realized that I'd rather have cats, so now I'm waaaaaay happier. :D
totally understandable, loving the culture doesn't mean loving the people from there. Lots of white guys in North America love sushi but show no interesting in dating Japanese, same.
I loved the whole conversation. I'm Brazillian, mixed-race, and sometimes I ask myself how popular I would be in other countries. And I love Japanese culture and I've already used the tinder to talk to Japanese guys but I wasn't so succeeded. Anyway, I really agree with Meng's opinions and I also think I am rated higher in the straight world than I am in the gay world. What a waste...
Where to even start :-) My first burst out was when the guys said: Hello Tokyo Verse ahahaaaa, Meng at the end: you still have sex what are you complaining about :-D he just killed it :-D Anyhow the interesting part about the language it did happen to me in Korea when I was in Jeju and asked a very simply thing: Can I get a milk and the waiter didn't understand me, even though I tried to say it again and louder, later my Korean colleague told me that many Korean sort of switch their brains off with that's a foreigner there is no chance he/she can speak our language and simply the message doesn't go through at all... it was truly an interesting experience. Oh and BTW as a straight girl I'm giving all of you 10! ❤
Ok i find the blond guy even more obnoxious than the black one 😂 The blond one can be considered as quite attractive by european beauty standards. He could get many many people in any western country and by western i mean north and south america and Europe. So its really entitlement that makes him demands the same kind of attention from people raised in another culture. No, no one has to find him attractive. He should consider himself lucky he is perceived as attractive in so many countries already; but no its not prejudice if Japanese people have different beauty standards. Its actually very interesting this colonial mindset, of demanding autochthonous people of a country where you chose to live to adopt your customs and your beauty standards, so people will fuck with you more
Love this channel guys. Planning my first visit to Japan next year. Hard to figure out where to go but got some good pointers on some of you other videos. Much appreciated.
I am American, and had very similar feelings in Japan. I love it there, and the people are very friendly, but... they are racist. They. Just. Are. I have lived in the Philippines over 10 years, I have permanent residency, but no matter how long I am here, or how friendly people are - I am still, and will always be, a guest. Dating is easy here, because I am an exotic. But no matter what, I will be an outsider. I think Japan is the same in that regard. 😎
Americans and Canadians are expected to return back home at some point of their life even if they are living abroad as an ex patriot and the reason for that is that the US and Canada has something to offer for that ex patriot that no other country can offer and this is the reason why Americans and Canadians are always treated as a guest around the world. Many people will immigrate to the US with the intent of dying in the US and thus they are not treated as a guest in the US. Any other country and you probably would not be treated as a guest where ever you go and thus it is more of an American thing than anything else. Do not forget that many people around the world are envious of Americans and they are not really being racist. My parents immigrated to the US from Europe long ago and thus the reason why I know all of this.
@@mjohnson9563 I am retired and living on the beach - why would anyone expect me to go back to the old country? IF they bothered to get to know me at all, they would know that I am here for the duration. I have been to Japan at least a dozen times - they are usually friendly, but they are in fact racist. 😎
@@freemagicfunthat doesn’t sound racist. Discriminatory maybe, but that’s not racism. Japan is a homogenous country, and I think it’s appropriate to judge with different standards.
I just randomly ran onto your channel. Who knew I needed this in my life. You guys are so cute and smart and outwardly respectful of eachother . What a refreshing conversation.
I couldn't help laugh with tears when you guys mention Sima aunty. Good to know both Andrew and Meng love watching Indian Matchmaking. I totally agree that those who said they have low standards for a bf are having high standards indeed. They just deny it.
Men are wired differently as we tend to be stimulated visually. Gay men just take it to another search-for-holy-grail level. Essentially most, if not all, are looking for a gogo boy type but they don't reflect and think, what can they offer to those gogo boys. Also, I feel for Meng as I have a similar physique and am ethnically Chinese so I hear you sis. WE ARE NOT UGLY!
I think you are all just thinking too much. Some people just aren’t your match. Just because you want them doesn’t mean they want you. Its not about race all the time…
11:18 I’ve tried to ‘settle’ but it can hurt your self-esteem because that diminishes the capacity to be assertive. Being open within reason is the ideal.
Also thank you for the honesty. We're all adults here and it's OK to discuss the less fun realities and in fact you're giving people a useful heads-up.
This is my opinion as a Japanese gay man. Many Japanese gays look at you as an object of admiration. Without the magic lamp, Aladdin can only admire Jasmine from afar. Magic lamp here means English conversation. As English became more powerful, Japanese people who were not good at English conversation became intimidated and hesitated to approach. It's not that we aren't interested in you.😉
Meng is definitely the reality check we needed in this video.
Complaints about being ‘unpopular’ from guys who have hundreds of hook ups and some relationships ring very hollow - thx to Meng for trying to keep it real.
👍 Indeed. Assuming that one "ought to be more desirable if not for the prejudices of the natives" (in whose country one is a guest) sounds more like narcissism and entitlement than understanding. Agreed... 🙄
Agreed, I got a lot of entitlement tones from the video, particularly the blonde guy. Interesting conversation tho.
Meng never disappoints. ♥
Looks like you've spun what they said into a different narrative, putting words in their mouths. Jumping to narcissism is pretty unfair, IMO. Sounds like you're saying "they're a guest in the country, they should be grateful for whatever they get and stop complaining, cause we have even less." Is that what you're saying? @@danny-taenzer
No matter how they look to you, they have feelings and get rejected too. Sharing about their rejections and experiences as not the dominant beauty standard doesn't make them entitled IMO.
You can have successes and the rejections can still hurt. I don't think you need to be an 80-year-old troll living under a bridge to have the right to complain.
@@andresrl01yep. American exceptionalism on full display here. I don't blame Japanese for wanting more options, after all Asia is the most populous region of the world (80%) , and hence very competitive - even in dating
This conversation has the opportunity to move beyond "unpopular" and to the core issue, which is "does your preference prefer you?"
Most underrated comment!!
100%
Astute!
"I realize that my rank is that I'm not Ugly" GURL.
GURL I FEEL THIS SO MUCH 😂😂😂
He’s the most realistic when rating himself 😂😂
@@getgtHonestly, he underrated himself. He’s higher than a 3 or 4
Humility has its charm.
@@justmike1753 sure…
me too
We just tend to be super shallow and idiolize people who are ridiculously produced and live in a vanity cycle and ignore half the regular people who are interested in us. If you get 100 messages but only like 3 people who message you, you are not unpopular, you are picky sis. And most of us are.
this is not a cancellation, but certain people be acting like they're new. we don't have this conversation as much in the west, but NYC is almost as population dense as Tokyo and gays have "no fats, fems, Blacks/Asians" in their grindr profiles. i don't see why people would think it was any different in Japan. Anyway good on Meng and Akio for expressing how it is to be gay and Asian in the west.
Agreed, I live in NYC and this is true
nothing wrong with stating your tastes... it just simply makes sense no matter what cry baby hurt offended crowd wokies say
@@user-hm4jm1cy7m I disagree, if someone isn't your taste when they message you, either ignore them or tell them you're not interested. To have that sort of thing in your profile is more-so to feed your ego. Essentially saying you're so popular, you can't be bothered with 'those' kinds of people messaging you.
Same in Brazil... when people talk about men being trash it doesn't exclude us gays... and I think we gays are more narcissistic than the average straight guy... the amount of gay couples who look the same and could pass as siblings is proof of that... also identical twins porn is disgustingly popular
@@gc6240 nah.. people are too easily offended now.. thats where all this comes from. I dont care if someone is offended by something that should not offend them.. im tired of everyone pushing their "feelings" on me anf thinking they can govern the very words that come out of my mouth... also... in the context of this video and leftist culture in general is what I was addressing.. stating your likes or dislikes is always painted with "racism" which is what is find most annoying and toxic. Its not racism so grow some skin and stop your cry bullying.
“Popular” in the gay community is this unattainable, ill-defined, and nebulous goal. It’s almost as if we are comparing ourselves to this amalgamation of hotness and sex formed from a conglomeration of all of our gay experiences (clubs, ig, porn). The goal is unattainable because it isn’t possible. That’s why I think we still feel unpopular even though we are objectively speaking not unpopular.
Try HATED.
I'm living in a City for decades that has world-class models, athletes, actors from stage and film, hustlers and prostitutes for a $1000 a might, or more, television performers, dancers, world-renound singers, and fabulous high school boys and college boys and university boys who challenge ever notion of "incredibly good-looking." Even regular guys you see in restaurants or stores or parks, just walking down the street, can be extremely attractive, extremely desirable, extremely sexy. There are groups here like "The 400" who are beyond good-looking, with great jobs and even greater trust funds. Boxes of money are extremely popular, extremely sexy. With money, you can always buy friends. Theses guys score more often than me. And you. They set the bar on "popular." Their suitors and dates and boy friends are the creme de la creme, maybe the guy you just saw in the latest Calvin Klein ad. That's good for airplane flights to the ports of the world. Plus clothes, plus dinner, plus suck n fuck, three times a day. Earn your keep, Big Boy, make me a woman. They get what they want. So imagine one of them being in a place where no one knows anything about them. They might be intimidating because of their looks. But you don't know about their job title. Or their address. Or their title. They might be frustrated by their wants and desires in Souvlakia, or Milan, or Kiamora. It's possible. But many rich people have connections, pimps, to do all the leg work. Still, these 400 Boys aren't as popular as they are back at home base. They get rejected by their unfamiliarity. What's famous in my town may not look like a hot Korean boy band. That can cost you dates. Keep imagining. Many of the "too good to be true" stories are not fabrications. Maybe in Pontiac, Michigan. But not in my town.
Initially, I thought that discrimination due to "uglyphobia" was a thing in Brazilian culture. But when I lived in Canada, both in a French-speaking and an English-speaking province, I noticed that discrimination if you don't have a pretty or beautiful face is something very common in the gay world. It is a shame that a social group, already the target of so much discrimination, has discriminatory attitudes in the same way.
I mean, that's how it is with straight people too. If they don't find you attractive, they usually won't engage as much...
As a black gay man who has been to 13 countries, its beyond sad (everyplace is the same). We have our rainbow flag and yet dealing with prejudice in all gay communities. The best way forward, is to keep educating each other and lead by example. Great video !
No one is due sex.
Inclusivity doesn’t mean fucking with everyone. Prejudice doesn’t mean refusing to have sex with someone.
@@Chrysobubulle You can fuck whoever you want, but you can't act like "no fats, no fems, no Blacks/Asians" isn't straight up discrimination.
I've always heard that Black studs in Germany are like the Second Coming to those locals.
Keep “educating” people all you want but you can’t force people to have certain preferences just because you fall into a category they don’t like. Basically you’ll end up sounding like you’re annoyed that you like someone and they don’t like you back. That’s as bad as trans people saying you’re transphobic or fat people saying you’re fat phobic if you don’t date them even if you’re friends with them
@@Chrysobubulleyou are showing your shallowness. You assume every gay man is looking for sex only.
As a black gay man into dating, The only time a person of another race (particularly white men) hit me up is to fetishize me for their BBC fantasy regardless of the fact I state I am looking to date.
Then they get upset when I turn them down, usually reverting to name calling and the obligatory N word in extreme cases.
Step outside your bubble for moment, yeah?
One thing you guys didn't touch on too much is to what extent natives are looking for long-term relationships with foreigners vs. hookups. Like Meng said, you guys all do seem pretty popular in terms of getting a hookup when you want but how hard comparatively is it to find a serious partner as a foreigner?
Thanks for raising this - I was thinking as well that there are lots of different shades of interaction - casual gym chat, neighbors, one-time hookup, relationship. As far as general attraction goes, looks, culture, language all come into play. It's a complex topic and good to keep discussing. I've lived in Japan, England, Hong Kong, California - fitting into each one is like subway surfing. That's part of the fun, though.
@@greggschroederhow did each of those places differ?
@@sugarzblossom8168 "It's complicated," of course. But as a young white man, in Japan I stood out, but felt like an awkward oddity and found that the perceived cultural differences often got in the way even of casual friendships; in England I blended in (until I opened my mouth) to the point of being invisible, in Hong Kong I got attention by those who were into the exotic and ignored by those who found foreigners distasteful; back in California now I'm old enough to be invisible. Different people approach each other differently of course - some are drawn to the unfamiliar as it seems interesting; others find that outside their comfort zone and don't care to dive in.
@@greggschroeder thank you that was quite interesting. I wish you all the best.
@@sugarzblossom8168 Thanks, you, too.
As an Asian who has spent my entire life in the US, I couldn't even begin to relate to the idea of being "popular" or even "welcomed" in any community. Asian men are unconditionally at the very bottom rung of the (non-financial) social hierarchy in the US; we are always on the outside looking in, with very rare exceptions. I guess it works the same way, but in the opposite direction in Japan.
Depends. If you had blue eyes and blond hair, would you talk to some of the people who find that attractive in you ? How about people who find your black hair and brown eyes .... (and Asian heritage/race ) attractive. ? If one of the reasons people find you attractive is that you are Asian, I'd encourage you to talk a little with them to find out if they are not total jerks/Rice Queens. 🙂
I agree with you. I am one of the few in this country who is white and likes Asian men and I've rarely ever had a friend who was into Asian men.
I also get ignored by most asian guys I message. So I wonder if most asian guys just prefer other asian guys
Odd tid bits you can pick up as a whore who reads: In America, the very tip top of the money ladder is occupied by certain couple combinations.Those who earn the most money are (#1) White Men/Asian Wives. (#2) top wage earners are Asian Men/White Wives.
@@mjohnson9563 Asian Men "freeze us out." I think, and I guess you people will look down on me, I think Asian people are really interesting looking in New York. For so long they stayed in the Chinatown ghetto. At some point the younger Asian student crowd began showing up on my Street and nearby Avenues. I fainted the day I saw my first tall Asian boy. Hunk with a great complexion. Oddly enough, I am in a similar dilemma with the ghettoized trans-guy community (I'm not in the least interested in the guys to girls thing). I don't know any trans-guys to educate me. I read a lot, but I don't know much about Russian nobility either. I like the "horse's mouth" approach. I know black men better, they keep dragging me into DL scenarios, and I am a jealous troll type about other women. I must be giving him something she ain't giving him, or maybe, like most black men, he just likes sex, and the source is not that big a deal. White men in America have hang ups about boy sex, but macho brothers in other communities do it with their own brothers all the time, as well as your Uncle's brother. Uncles are very popular in all circles.
Yes let’s take all the beautiful men who are in relationships with body counts in the triple digits and complain about how we’re “unpopular”. This is victim mentality and greed “why did that one hot guy not want me?”. I love your videos Tokyo BTM but the people you brought on here I don’t think we’re the right group to bring on for this topic. We get it, you guys are hot. No we can’t feel sorry for you because you get more than enough attention. There’s even a form of white privilege here in Japan be side there are many who idolize Foreign men and culture and give you a pass on many things. It’s really frustrating to hear these beautiful gays complain.
Not to mention the only one still looking youthful is Meng among all those crusty gays. Even the jock they had on there looks old.
Lmao you’re so bothered
Lol wholeheartedly agreed this people be like "I'm the whole package" but it seems the package doesn't include thinking about the words you say
@@bryanmata7198 Agree. And the redhead guy in green shirt and the black guy are so beyond annoyingly obnoxious with their sense of entitlement. They think just because they have "hot" body ( which to me are just basic) and can speak Japanese, they expect the gay guys here in Japan to throw themselves at their feet !😅😅😅
@@ohnanananababy Nah it's only the truth. Having a high body count isn't a flex.
why foreigners has to be popular at first though? I’m a Chinese living in USA and I never feel I have to be popular. Quite opposite in reality.
Wo hen gao xing renshi ni ❤
It's because you're abundant.
There is plenty of Chinese around the world.
The rarest the most interesting, most fetishized someone is.
I’ve been writing and deleting paragraphs trying to pick my words for about an hour! Lol What I want to say is I think the trick to getting what you want is letting it come to you. I’ve met some great attractive Japanese and foreigner guys in Japan because they pursued me. Sure there is something to being active in your love life and going for what you want, but you also want someone who wants you back. Also, TOKYO BTTM, let me just say not one of your friends you’ve had on the show isn’t an attractive social person fully capable of finding love in Japan. I know we all have different/similar experiences but you did take 3 men in relationships and ask them why they’re not getting enough attention 🙃 BTTM line: I think you have to get dressed for you, go out for you, allow yourself to be seen because you want to be seen, and the right types will gravitate towards you. Everyone else is background.
Damn. This is the thesis to a 10 chapter book.
@@eltiochusma lol, the promo to my Ted Talk.
@@RexCapulet great ted talk lol
I second this. Waiting and not pursuing definitely works. Constant pursuit will get you hurt, and tired lol.
As what they say "You don't find love, let love find you."
I definitely think Akio hits it right on the nose with the 'not wanting to make a fool of themselves'. Being Asian myself, we generally want to 'save face' so making mistakes (whether in speaking, etc) in front of others seems like a nightmare, especially in front of a foreigner, so they'd much prefer to ice people out so they don't have to be put in that situation in the first place. Such an interesting conversation!
Keep talking, I don't know anything about the Asian mindset. You've frozen me out. Hearing real people explain real things is better than a real book explaining things. I wish black people would offer up more inside stuff too. We still need to have "a" conversation.
16:38 Not the white American telling Japanese people how Japanese people should be 💀💀
the white man's burden.
Loved this. You guys should have more episodes like this "Nitori Sofa Talk" episode! I would only add that although your group is diverse, you guys all appear to be fit to slender body type, so I'd be curious if people in other body type ranges have similar experiences. Anyway, great episode!
At times the criticism sounds like entitlement- just because you speak the language well doesn’t necessarily mean people will become more interested. Japan is quite homogenous and what they deem as attractive just might not be you (and obviously that would not be the case back in their home country)
Yes it has that kind of 'I feel that I'm on the top of the gay hierarchy' and I speak Japanese, so why arent they flocking to me? Well, maybe because you are in the minority and Japanese have very particular tastes and find different things attractive/hot.
True, and also, when foreigners ubiquitously experience indifference from Japanese natives, there's a valid point to be made about exclusive beauty standards. I also don't know if it's true to say that Japan is homogeneous. I understand Japan to be harmonious, not homogeneous.
Thank you for this. I feel the same but didn't know how to put it into words, just whatever Carlton said gives me an ick. I understand the frustration, but being an Asian in America and having experience all kinds of prejudice and discrimination, I just want to yell 'no Carlton, it's not prejudice, you might just look odd/exotic to Japanese people'
Homogeneity is not something to be proud of nor a flex. At some point you’re banging a relative.
@@satananal4395 I think Japan is considered one of the more homogeneous societies in the world in the sense that the racial composition is very uniform (97%-98.5% ethnic Japanese), as well as linguistically. Unlike Singapore, there's also religious homogeneity (Shintoism & Buddhism) and similar cultural norms simply due to a lack of diversity.
As an 'Older' gay (male) American, my personal experience has led me to believe that the gay male community at large (worldwide) is one of the most critically biased groups there are. And it hurts me to my soul to even say that. I believe that stereotyping exists in the gay community to a hypocritical level and your conversations supports that suggestion. Not to be a Debbie Downer, just stating some facts as I see them. I think this is one to the more difficult, yet long overdue group of topics you have presented, and I love you guys for it. And I guess the cat's out of the bag ...Andrew admits that he's a grower and not a shower! 🍆Hahaha Cheers All.
As another "older" male, I have to agree with you on that point. Ageism is a real thing, which is not surprising in a community that worships the cult of the body to an almost fascistic degree. It's further emphasised by the odd desire to compartmentalise people into rigid identity roles.
So freaking true
this was such a necessary conversation, please do it more often!
I adore this type of disussing because I also do it with mt friends and people around me. Plus, it helps me practicing my English.
I had the a different experience: in Canada, I feel an intense pressure to conform to straight-acting male beauty standards in order to seem "attractive", but in Japan I felt free to be myself and let those who were interested in me (viewing me as an "exotic foreigner") approach me. I wouldn't say I was "popular" in Japan, but I certainly experienced greater freedom of expression and had a lot more sex.
When you are getting older it gets harder and harder to find someone who you want to spend time together. The main reason is that your list is getting longer as you age. So it doesn’t really matter whether you are popular or not. Because once you are getting older occasionally you will feel some insecurities whether you are popular or not.
oh yeah, as one ages one knows themselves a bit better and hence would have more deal breakers haha 😅. That said , this video is a great conversation starter, hope they start a series here or on tiktok!
Thank you so much for this video!! I've been in Japan for a month and I have already shared some of your experiences and feelings as a black gay man. I'm hoping it get better. Great conversation guy!
I completely relate to what you all said!
The only thing is it's actually getting worse once you get over 45/50! 😂
I was smiling the whole video because it felt like meeting up with a group of like-minded friends. I do agree with so many of the points made!! It's refreshing to hear from people who've lived in Japan for a long time and really experienced it. I think that a lot of Japanese people do see non-Asians as a different species. It's a bit like watching a panther at the zoo: you can find it beautiful, a little scary, be interested in its background, but you will never think about f*ck*ng or romancing it (and if you do, you're SICK). Despite this, I do believe that diversity is very slowly but surely growing in Japan and I hope that you guys will have less infuriating experiences. But it sure feels good to VENT. Thank you for the video!❤
panther analogy is spot on. best comment here
I think you all handled a sensitive topic honestly but with a good dose of humor. A lot of newbies who go to Japan after watching a 60-second TikTok that "Foreigners are popular in Japan!" are in for a big surprise...
That cognitive dissonance thing is real. I’m Black American and when I encounter people who speak Spanish and are struggling speaking English I will respond in perfect Spanish and it just does not compute. They will still struggle in English or be shocked and ask how I’m the world do I speak Spanish. Even though there are Afro-Latinos 😂
I don't know if you stated that you are afro-latino or not. But I find that when an English speaker speaks spanish(even as you said perfect) it still sounds off. So some sound just like the Spanish person trying to speak English. Also some want to speak English to get better at it. Because it helps.
Well they want to keep practicing the spanish. Black spanish speaker are not a shock they are a lot (specially in the caribbean isles, such as cuba, Dominican republic, puerto rico etc). So its weird they reacted in shock. It would believe it if you were Asian that is way rarer.
@@nathanielthomas4071Yeah English speakers might have an accent and thus they will use english instead to decode pronounciation.
Pretty western gays get a taste of their own medicine. Love it.
Totally being cancelled....Not! I love how you all set the very real tone that they might not be very well received as a gay foreigner. I found myself laughing along with you guys so much this video. While the topic is uncomfortable the atmosphere you 5 generated was very comfortable. ❤Thank you for all the hard work and candid honesty.
This is awesome topic to be discussed more! Well done guys ! I say it as a person who has very complex identity - born in Japan, grew up in NYC & London, and lived in Sydney, Auckland, and now in San Francisco. It was so fascinating to hear your views and experiences because it is “sort of” opposite but so very similar to what I have experienced in my life! One thing I have learnt is that less labels you give to yourself and others, easier your and others life gets. But this does not mean societies will accept it which is completely another matter.
This is fascinating this "less labels for yourself" approach.. how would you go about doing that when meeting someone for coffee or a drink ?
Agree!
I think a simple fact is that no matter where you are, overwhelmingly, people prefer what they know to what they don't know. I see so many couples who are clones of each other, and it's not a coincidence. Many prefer people that look like them, behave like them, have the same experiences as them, and more. You all seem like rare exceptions in that you are the kinds of people who are willing to move away from home and go experience things outside of your norm culturally, but that is NOT the majority of people, and especially in such a homogeneous country like Japan. Also, being gay in Japan already makes one not conform in a very conformist type society. It may be perceived as slipping further down the conformity scale to date foreigners.
That applies to straight guys too, you can see 4 or 5 of them all dressed in the exact same style, all act the same, same haircut, that goes for any types of groups. I often wonder if the couples who look the same
OK, first, apology for my low level of writing English skill but there's lots to cover and it was a very interesting conversation and a topic that totally relates to me personally as well as I'm a Japanese born and raised (mostly) Japanese gay guy living in Canada for 30 years now and I have experienced and still am in the both worlds. There are so many things I want to comment about but to make my comments short(er), I will just cherry pick here. First, I want to comment on what Carlton was talking about how he's been making so much effort and trying to get as closer as possible to Japanese people, learning and being able to speak Japanese now but he still gets some sense of segregation or gaps in between himself and Japanese people regardless of his efforts. He's been always looked at as a "Gaikokujin" or a foreigner no matter how well he can speak and interact with Japanese people. Sad truth. So from that bitter experiences he mentioned that Japanese people are somewhat "prejudice" and I totally admit that is true. Maybe not with an intention but in the end, it's the same thing, same outcome(prejudice). that might unfortunately never change or it might take another century or two to begin to see a slight change if that will ever happen. There is a four Kanji word in Japanese says "Wakon Yosai" (和魂洋才）it came from during the revolution era in Japan after the Shogun era started to fade and new more Western modern cultures started to flourish in Japan. The essence is that Japanese person (people) never forgets their Japanese soul and spirit within but learning and adopting more foreign (Western) cultures and ideology and so on. And you know what, to this day after so many decades or centuries of evolutions in Japan particularly so many phases of modernizations throughout the Japan history, keep adopting and seeking for whole bunch of stuff from Western cultures among other cultures from other part of the world, if you would hypothetically split a typical everyday Japanese person into half, you will most likely to find their "Japanese spirit and soul" placed in their core no matter what. Perhaps more than 90% of them. So this is something that we carry in our soul and spirit no matter a Japanese person says he/she loves American or European cultures and they are totally living in the culture outside Japan. The key is that as long as they were born and raised and lived most of their life in Japan and within Japanese society, their "Wakon Yosai" never goes away. And funny thing is, most of them(us Japanese) are not aware of this unique hidden characteristic themselves. So this is in a way showing their Japan island like small, rather narrow minded and only "Japanese way" of thinking is subconsciously present sometimes heavily and it shows it clearly especially to foreigners who live long enough in Japan and wondering like Carlton's restaurant scenario case for an example. The Japanese waiter/-ess tends to (subconsciously feel more comfortable) talking to either a Japanese or Japanese looking customer even if he/she might be or could be still a foreigner. That's how their mentality works unfortunately. There was many times when I was still in Japan, in the exact same situation with a foreign friend, when he was ordering food in Japanese to the waitress/waiter but when she/he was repeating the order, she/he would look at only my face. Also when he would ask about the menu in Japanese yet still they would look at me and answering to me but rudely not to him. So I had to tell them to look at him and answer to him not to me because he is the one talking to you. As you can see and you guys already know, Japanese people still need to learn and there's still a long way ahead to be in the "international" standard. Again, "Wakon Yosai" spirit is preventing from that. And another very huge point I wanted to talk about is for both Carlton and Cris experiences (and Andrew as a white person) as a gay person. When it comes to hooking up with Japanese guy(s) for whatever the purpose may be as long as "sex" is in the equation and horizon, or at least that's what they perceive when being approached by, many Japanese guys particularly bottoms and vers/bottoms who had 0 or only a little experiences with primarily non typical Asian looking foreigners automatically assume that those "foreigners" or 'Gaijin" are tops first of all and second, they are with huge dicks and maybe rough so they are "yabai". They could tear them apart and very painful...etc. Yeah, shaking my head. Some of them even go further and have a misconception or simply pure ignorance that foreigners are too wild and maybe dangerous or scary in different levels even from health (STIs) standpoint. Have you heard of that before?? Yes, again as Carlton said, Japanese are "prejudice" or even racists. Well, doesn't racist or prejudice come from "lack of education" = ignorance? So exactly that with many Japanese gay guys when it comes to having sex with foreigners. That's why you always wonder but why they have that weird avoiding behaviours when you guys approach them in those contexts. But hold up, maybe just to give a benefit of the doubt, average sizes of dicks in my own experience and observation (after so many astronomical numbers of dicks I have consumed in my more than a half of a century of my old ass life) I would say that there are more bigger dicks with non Japanese or maybe non Asian foreigners than Japanese guys. Objection or true? So partly their assumption is right. And not only that but many of those Japanese bottoms have tighter holes from my experience as well. It's maybe the biological and anatomical fact and it's their preventative and survival instinct kick in psychologically to protect them from getting hurt so they are not so friendly or open towards gay foreigners when it comes to going to bed. As I've been living in Canada for so long and I have been actually asked by quite numbers of Japanese guys whether "gaijin" have big dicks or if I'm not afraid of them...etc. So definitely there's a misunderstanding and ignorance there. They are still experiencing themselves that "Sakoku" era or "locked up Japan against foreign men" time of our history. But don't be discouraged because there are more and more Japanese gay guys wanting and looking for more foreigners like I used to be. (I'm now more "buffet style" where I eat whatever the feast is served! LOL) Thanks for reading thus far!! Oh by the way, I think I still experience the reverse gay prejudice thing in Canada (against Asian guys) not as prevalent as it used to 10, 20 years ago though... It is what it is...
You: "apology for my low level of writing English skill"
Also you: * writes an essay length comment in amazing english *
You really need to stop being so hard on yourself, your english is great!😊
Oh my stars ✨ , let's dive into this gem of a statement! First things first, well done, the way you kicked off - it's like a round of applause 🤣. And that humble start with "my low level of writing English" at the ripe age of 50-plus, that's a whole new level of throwing shade without lifting a finger. Bravo, bravo! 👏😂
Now, let's talk about Asia, shall we? It's like a mixed bag of prejudice, racism, and skin tone biases - it's like they're playing a game of "Let's See Who Can Win at Discrimination!" Japan, Korea, and China are all in the race, but, oh, China's got a wild card up its sleeve - if there's a good deal, they'll make it so they can strut around like they're the saviors of the universe.
Now, let's talk attraction - Asians are cute, but not quite "orgasmic" (because apparently, they need to level up their game, right?). And let's not even get started on the short-sightedness - whether it's culture or plain old ignorance, it's all just one big mess. But you know what's universal? Kindness! And in Asia, they've got this secret weapon called "Asian wickedness," and it's like a bombshell revelation - 🤯. Despite all those romantic and educational series they put out, when it comes to individual wickedness and "fakeness," it's like so bad I want to sprint to the nearest airport to escape the drama!
It's a wild world out there, 😄✈️ back to the west despite missing the east so much and Asia I love you 💕 not fake or pretending, if only you guys could be a tinny but more open and kinder without the fluff or trying to be pretend to be polite but more real. ❤🎉😂😊
@@edward6633nahhh you conflate pretending to be polite with cultural etiquette in Asia. It's mainly a conservative society with historically prescribed social interactions. In NY, it's also fairly not uncommon for your classmates to say let's grab a drink sometime and one never hears from them again. And this is coming from a native Finnish, maybe us Scandinavians are more socially communal too 😅
I appreciate where you're coming from, but I said what I said! Now, gurl, go get a drink and twerk those hips. Now enjoy the party. 😎🥳✌ @@zacharycohen9985
🥶 do you guys enjoy this spicy episode?
Love the open, honest, public discussion of these topics!
Agreed....... fantastic episode! And I think you just scratched the surface of the issues. For instance, you didn't discuss the perception of most foreign gays in Japan being out while native Japanese guys might be vastly more in the closet.
great episode!
hey, this is my favorite episode so far, even surpassing Meng's love hotel haha. This was so fun and so much great insight in this spicy conversation among friends. Would love to see more of these honest convos on your channel. hugs from LA! ♥
Yeah, great episode ❤
Hello. was a former part time ESL teacher here in PH and I had face-to-face classes with Japanese students (high school to Uni age-level). One thing I learned/discovered about Japanese behavior/ethos is this: Japanese people strictly adhere to norms although they admit some of them don't have any rhyme or reason. If they don't like you, it doesn't mean something's unacceptable on your end, it only means they are used to what they're used to. So if they prefer someone who looks like them, even if you speak their language, it doesn't mean they don't like you. They are just more comfortable with those who look Asian. They're also not accustomed to being a stand out/be very vocal about change because those are normally considered unacceptable and are mere sore thumbs. So to avoid being tagged like that, they often just follow societal norms.
And yes, just like in other countries, no matter how long you've stayed in Japan, or how knowledgeable you are about their culture and language, there's still a certain level of separation/divide because you're not one of them. Even if you're a well loved teacher (much more for this because students have high regards for teachers!) This is quite evident for Filipinos because of Japanese people's shame regarding the w/ar and how their society looked at Filipinas who worked in different red light districts during the 90's
This was one of many enjoyable videos on your channel.
I feel like there's much to still uncover and describe when it comes to exploring the living experiences of individuals who are trying to settle into a different tribe than the one they have come from.
Within a world whose populations are all tribal by nature, there are going to be unique challenges for those who leave their tribe to join another.
Subsequently, tribes challenge their own in a variety of ways; that is already a baseline "expectation" when evaluating someone who wants to merge with the tribe but originates from outside the tribe.
Modern technology has allowed these types of stories to be more broadly shared, it is up to each person who consumes this type of content to determine for themselves if they want to modify their own way of living.
Thank you for putting this conversation out here.
So I'm a white-passing mixed-race filipino in Cebu so I take a lot of short trips around Asia since it's easy to get to (heading to tawian pride in a couple of weeks) and I really feel that Japan has much stronger prejudice against foreigners for hookups than the other places in Asia I've been to. Here in the Philippines, being a foreigner will make you the most popular guy on the apps, but even going to other places like Taipei, Hong Kong, Singapore, I get a *lot* of attention from local guys. When I go to Tokyo (I haven't been elsewhere but planning Osaka/Kyoto next year), I don't have a problem hooking up, but all the guys blowing up my apps are tourists or US armed forces. I'm the type that never makes the first move, so it's not about me getting responses, but more based on who makes the first move on me.
LOOOOVE this episode! As an anthropologist of Japan, I really enjoy this channel's content. Whenever I'm back to Tokyo I'd love to meet up with you guys!
Amazing stories. Meng, you are vastly higher than 6! You are a 9.5 at least! Thank you for the video!
Wow, haha i wish
I agree, Meng is intelligent, charming, and cute. At least 9.
Ok everyone, repeat after me.
"I'm wanted. I'm hot. I'm everything you're not."
I'll see you all in next week's group therapy session.
😂😂😂
Lol that's part of the lyrics of the Bring it on opening scene
😂😂😂
There are many cultural and societal forces playing other than "they just don't find foreigners attractive." Japanese gay people still feel the pressure of needing to have a wife and children, an idea that we in the west have left a long time ago. Combined with the perception that foreigners in a country, especially Japan, are there only temporarily, results in a lot of people not even giving dating a chance.
As for hookups, they are superficial in nature, so no one should take anything about it personally. It's hypocritical to have personal preferences for yourself and whine about not being other's type at the same time. Foreigners in any country are seen as a risk in cultural behavior and maybe even trustworthiness because they can go back to their country and could be more wild in the country they are visiting.
I also think the top/bottom mottainai thing is not only based on if you're foreign, but also your appearance. In Japan, I was described as having a sweet face, while my body was somewhat (TMI) hairy. Most of the guys I talked to were tops and were contacting me with the intent to top me. So I think that ultimately, everyone has their own experience. Just remember to try to see the situation from different perspectives and to not take it personally. If you really want to be dating and be in a relationship, stop presenting yourself on sxx app in a sxxual way by showing your body, because it gives the idea that you are only in it for a hookup, and the superficial nature continues.
If all else fails, just start manifesting and writing down your ideal features and character in a lover. If you end up with a Japanese person, most likely they are internationalized and have less ultra-Japanese mindsets, and will be more open-minded and accepting of your behavior and personality.
Love this conversation. Truthfully I'm a 5'8 1/2 or 5'9" and I like bottom guys who are taller or larger than me but I think that is the general preconceived notion that those who are taller assumes the role of the top.
This convo just showed that the gym princess don't know how to deal with rejection
3:50 "People don't gravitate towards me"
What are you girl.. the sun?
11:05 Meng calling out Subconscious Bias yasssss we all have it
Great conversation.
I've never lived in Japan but I have visited over 4 times and I've always enjoyed the locals.
For me, in terms of dating/hookups, I got what I was looking for... I didn't use apps. Met everyone in person.
Prejudice and racism can unfortunately be found everywhere.
Stand tall and just be you. The person(s) you need in your life will come when it's time.
From a guy who’s born and raised in Los Angeles, has traveled and has friends all over the country it’s good to hear regardless of where you go, we all have similar experiences. We all are selective, all of us don’t get the attention we feel we deserve (regardless of how good we think we look) and all get ignored on apps by the ones we want and bombarded by attention from people we would never give the time of day. I find it interesting that in Japan foreigners aren’t more fetishized, like they are here in America. I’m guessing it’s because of the shyness and humility of the culture.
Foreigners ARE fetishized by a small minority of Japanese gays, they're just not popular.
this is such a good video, having conversations like these are so informative and eye opening. make more videos! y’all should start a podcast and bring in guests weekly.
White guy in the green shirt saying that looking like a fit Japanese makes a world of a difference is correct. To give you a visual, I look Japanese and fit right into the circuit scene and have dated gogo-boys, inside and outside of Japan. In fact, I didn't even speak any Japanese on my first few trips to Tokyo, yet I felt more love and warmth from Japanese people than I have anywhere else. It was pretty obvious to me that looking Japanese, or native to any land, opened a lot of doors and a lot of hearts. I've never experienced that anywhere outside of Japan.
If you’ve been to some SA and SEA countries, looking native actually can close more doors than you’d like to believe. By looking native I specifically refer to darker skin tone.
I'm Filipino American and have felt more well received in the Philippines than I ever have in the states. I'm not dark, but I'm not that light either. But you're right, colorism is very real and does factor with prejudice unfortunately.@@chatnoire89
So so so much fun and a massive THANK YOU THANK YOU for the proper accurate subtitles. It makes it so inclusive because a real rapid gay chat can get hard to follow with less than perfect hearing and it's wonderful not to be missing out. 🎉❤
Re: the guy who won’t approach in public but will approach in private
Won’t this be more because of saving face and the shame of possible rejection? I’m not sure how prevalent the whole honor/shame thing and saving face in Japan is, but it is a somewhat prevalent thing in Asia. So perhaps the guy didn’t approach you publicly because if you reject him then the rejection is public and that’s shameful, but has more confidence to approach you in private because then, if he gets rejected no ones will witness the rejection thus he saves face?
Ugh, Akio is so handsome I can’t even
Living in Japan for almost 8 years I have to say that I wouldn't say foreigners are unpopular in Japan in general. I myself don't have issues finding guys who I find attractive and who are attracted to me but the issue is that I can't find someone who isn't just into sex but an actually reliable and faithful partner - which is a universial issue, I guess. Especially, a monogamous longterm relationship with someone who can meet more than every other week and who doesn't just want to bottom... nowhere to be found... yet ^.^"
This is really interesting to hear from another part of the world,
I'm a half Japanese, half white New Zealander and I feel I get ignored because I don't look "completely" white.
There is definitely a hierarchy of races over here as well with non-whites being fetishized.
Moreso hookup culture as opposed to the dating culture which I find to be slightly different.
What a wonderful conversation. Openness, honesty, and valid points and opinions made by all participants. I do appreciate the candor of each person to tell their experiences from their point of view. I do think that there are some cultural nuances on both sides in need of unpacking. Thank you for starting this dialogue. It is important for both sides to understand the ideas and perceptions of others and to confront their own biases and beliefs. Everyone has work to do.
Meng is definitely not ugly. He's very handsome. All the boys are.
Well, this episode was easy on the eyes lol Super interesting topic, appreciate you sharing your experiences…
I love this honest conversation ❤❤ these convos need to happen more in the gay community. Especially with the race preference and blatant racism disguised as "preference". I lost a lot of weight prior to my trip to Japan and felt kind of good about myself but didn't really have that "fun" I was hoping for 😅. Then again I don't radiant confidence, I look like a scared bunny everywhere I go. This time I'm bulking up prior to going and wondering what my experience will be like this time ..
Dating is hard but I think it's even more difficult in a foreign country.
日本人の一部はは自分と違うものを極端に恐れる時があるんだよね 9mon日本育ちだって書いてるのに会った人に「外国人だから会うのに勇気がいた」とか暗闇で仲良くなった人に「外国人は怖がられるから暗闇であまり相手されないよね」って言われてびっくりした事がある。
Meng s true to himself, but so does every guy in this interesting nd honest conversation 🙌 when Aiko said: showing muscles is not an issue but when showing face, they cutt off. Its sad but it s what it is. Thanks guys for giving yours perspectives nd setting various nationalities with different backgrounds 💋x
I can completely relate in a way. I'm currently studying medicine abroad in the Caribbean and on my Island there are about 4 guys on tinder. There is not even a single gay venue. Coming from New York, this is a big change and it's really easy to fall into the trap of feeling lonely. I miss my gays. #Struggle
This video has so much to unpack. But one thing that bothers me most is Carlton’s comment of how he’s practically fluent but has a hard time getting into the Japanese community but a person he knows who presents Japanese but speaks only conversational Japanese get accommodations and was granted entry. As if this person maybe isn’t actually a good person and or meshed will with a certain group of friends. This wasn’t even a comment on attraction but community. If you couldn’t get into a certain friend group, but he did, maybe he just got along with them better than you did and has nothing to do with race. You’re diminishing the value of his friendship with those people and I think that’s pretty rough. Some people just aren’t into some people whether it’s due to not being their type (race or personality otherwise), or having a personality that meshes well with others. It just all sounds so egotistical and self-absorbed to think “I’m attractive and speak fluent Japanese. Why doesn’t everyone love me and give me attention”. Just because a few people you’re into turn you down here and there doesn’t mean you’re unpopular. You’re just not what that individual is looking for. When your numbers are triple digits and still complaining it’s like Meng said…”greedy”.
As a half Japanese person raise overseas but moved later into my adulthood to japan, I worked hard for my friendships and relationships, and for Carlton just practically say it’s because I get an “accommodation” simply for my race rather than my personality or efforts in reaching out to make a community, is quite insulting.
とても面白いテーマだったと思う。ただ日本人の視点からすると、色々と思い込みが激しいなと感じるかも。
ジムのサウナで話しかけられるのは、トレ中に邪魔にならないようにという配慮の可能性が高いと思うし、カナダで体の写真ではメッセが来るのに顔出ししたら来ないのは差別でもなんでも無いと思うけどｗ
そんなの日本でもあることでしょ。
偏見や差別等ではない。
19:58のエピソードで分かるように、モテるモテないは結局顔と体の総合的な見た目だという単純な現実だよね。
どんな見た目がモテるかというのは国によっても傾向は違うだろうし、同じ国でも人それぞれ。
しょうがないよそれは。手っ取り早くモテたければ、鍛えてタチやリバになるのが一番。
前列の二人はバリ受けでしょ。一部のモテる見た目以外はバリ受けはこの国ではきついよ。歳を重ねれば特にね。
I believe that the experiences discussed in the video are entirely valid and incredibly relatable. As someone from Southeast Asia, I've personally felt a heightened sense of desirability when traveling to other ASEAN countries like Thailand. This experience is undeniably true, relatable, and unfortunately uncomfortable.
What resonated with me in the video was the acknowledgment that this issue exists in various places. Just because something is common doesn't justify it. Discussing these issues online can raise awareness and prompt individuals to consider how their actions impact the emotions of others.
That being said, I also think this conversation can sometimes lead us down a somewhat pessimistic path. The truth is, no matter where we are, life can have its challenges. As humans, we are wired not to be satisfied, so we constantly seek improvement, whether it's in terms of attractiveness, wealth, or success. We forgot that years ago, we wanted to be in the position we are now. There will always be a seemingly better place with greener grass. To quote Dita Von Teese, "You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches."
I believe it's essential to share a message of finding peace in the imperfect world we live in and accepting where we are while continuing to strive for self-improvement. While discussing this topic has its benefits, I wish it also addressed how to better cope with the universal feelings we all experience.
Despite the topic being a little unsettling at times with the sad racism, this was really one of the most fun videos I’ve watched in a while. Please bring these guys in more often! I had fun seeing the group dynamic with you folks, and watching you all discuss and have fun.
Akio hit the nail on the head when he said in western culture, the hierachy is that asian men are at the bottom. Meng was also right when he said that asians are treated like a fetish. As a gay asian man in America, I've also experienced being considered a fetish. And the reality is that depending on your culture, you have your own perference.
Carlton is a adorable, hunky and a total package. And Cralton is a 15 out of 10 on a bad day lol😊
**drool**
I think that on top of cultural norms the level of diversity around you when growing up plays a huge role in shaping who you're gonna be attracted to sexually as an adult. And that's independent of whom you might consciously find good-looking. Let's not forget that up until very recently the vast majority of the world was locally not diverse at all, and even today only the largest cities in any given country have a significant level of diversity. At least nowadays we get access to diversity through the media (but biased towards impossibly good-looking people, so for normal people it doesn't help in terms of self-confidence). But my experience has also been that sexual attraction is not set in stone and broadens over time. The more diversity I have been in contact with as an adult, the more my unconscious "sexual" brain catches up with my conscious "aesthetic" brain to find all sorts of people not just good-looking but also sexually attractive.
No wait, I fully understand where Meng is coming from in the conversation around "pickyness". The way I think about it, is being comfortable with many types of people/bodies is not the same as being comfortable with many types of men. For example, you can say "Well I'm not picky because I'm into bears, twinks, jocks, and etc.", but they still have to be 'hot' versions of those categories. You're into 'hot' bears, and 'hot' twinks, etc. etc. That's where I think the disconnect is when people who are not conventionally attractive hear people who are conventionally attractive say they're not picky.
I just stumbled upon the video and I think after watching all your testimonies I really do think that you guys deserve a big round a plus and what you have shared was really personal and yeah, it’s so profound in terms of relationship, wise, culture, wise, and human wise. The never ending question as to the quest for dating for gay guys in Japan, or anywhere around the world, is always going to be fundamental yet so intriguing and there are so many more frontiers waiting for us to explore. Again, thank you so much for your guys sharing and it was really interesting listening to all your talks!❤ (from Taiwan 🇹🇼)
The goal of gay rating is to be Best In Show. A sexy wolf is not a great twink and so on. These guys are good representations within their categories.
Meng is a total ten to my eyes 😍
I think for the vast majority of people, hooking up or dating is not as easy as we think it should be. And I also reality check myself against the experience straight men have... in a month as gay men we can see more action with more partners than they often do in an entire lifetime.
Do I wish more men my type would chase me instead of the other way around? Absolutely. Are there times when I go looking and don't find a match? Of course. But keeping with your metaphor about eating its also true we wont go hungry for long.
Each one of your positions are so relatable as an American born & raised Taiwanese heritage living in Amsterdam.
Generally:
Los Angeles - Not popular, but visible to men.
Netherlands - Not popular, and not visible to men.
Taiwan - Popular, but western vs. eastern cultural standards clash.
- Popularity and appeal, like most things, comes down to what is considered familiar and mainstream to the wider audience. You won't consider yourself popular if the audience isn't open to ethnic and cultural diversity, even if some individuals appreciate you.
- Every place is its own bubble of standards, and if we don't fit the standard, then we "werk" within our own personal bubble of fab and sexy.
- In my experience, you don't have to be popular to be considered sexy, but you do have to feel comfortable within a society to feel sexy.
Interesting you said that about AMS... I feel invisible even as a white European there, they really prefer their own kind, and have strict 'standards', even us caucasians who are a 6.5-7 are totally iced out. They all want 9.5s and are willing to stay alone until they find one? lol
What an important conversation in such a nice format. Please invite these eloquent men again! 😄
From what you are saying it sounds that Japanese gay culture is what western gay culture was back in the 90s. The other day I was watching that gay movie “The broken heart’s club” and I found myself commenting on how toxic the gay culture was to its own community members. LOL, I just realize that you guys could be that movie,😆 a bunch of diverse gay guys complaining about their looks, sex lives, their rank, their femininity vs their masculinity and generally their gay lives. I empathize and I understand your frustration. It’s harder for gay people to feel content when it comes to acceptance of any form, for obvious reasons.❤
I''ve seen that movie and depending on your friendship circles it can still ring true today. I remember the scene when the sister advises her gay brother Patrick to find another group of gay friends to help cheer him up and also the quote "Patrick, when you came out... you said it was because you couldn't live the rest of your life in misery. And I have never seen you more miserable."
Nothing has changed...maybe with social media and apps it is even more shallow as more gay clubs/establishments close in the West, the beauty standards reach an impossible steroid-injected level of buffness!
@@irememberla6460 I haven’t been out for years, have things really not changed? Hmm maybe the effects of this new wave of accepting and expressing our femininity that we are going thru wright now haven’t been fully formed yet. You know, with drag getting into mainstream and both straight and gay men embracing their feminine side appearance-wise. Also with the more representation that we are getting in the media I thought that things had already improved. Maybe we’ll see a change in a few years from now, hopefully.
But i too have noticed the epidemic of steroid use making a comeback both in the straight and gay world.
Meng, you're my level! Give me a chance! Let's get married ♥
When I was in my 20s and 30s living in SF I felt like I was near the top of the food chain. Muscled white guy hairy chest steroid using, I had sex frequently and was pursued constantly. Now I'm in my mid 50s, no longer gym bodied or steroid using, I have moved lower in terms of attention that I get. I feel like it's a natural process, our popularity and attention has peaks and valleys, but it's all irrelevant to the important thing which is being happy in ourselves.
were u able to keep it up on steriods? or u needed viagra?
_"I have missed so many karaoke invitations..."_
xD (lots of love from the UK)
*EDIT:* I couldn't agree with Carlton more regarding the whole fetishization of Japan's "cultural innocence" or "purity" or whatever. Even if you ignore just how grossly inaccurate it is, it's also ironically insulting to Japanese people, these (mostly) white weebs desperately infantilizing an entire ethnic group and treat them like a collective Disney princess, instead a large, nebulous and complex bracket of humanity. Grinds my gears.
I'm an overweight raging homosexual, and body/beauty standards really piss me off. I realized that I'd rather have cats, so now I'm waaaaaay happier. :D
totally understandable, loving the culture doesn't mean loving the people from there. Lots of white guys in North America love sushi but show no interesting in dating Japanese, same.
Who is in charge with the edition? It is awesome! HAHAHAHA
It makes the video better!
I loved the whole conversation. I'm Brazillian, mixed-race, and sometimes I ask myself how popular I would be in other countries. And I love Japanese culture and I've already used the tinder to talk to Japanese guys but I wasn't so succeeded. Anyway, I really agree with Meng's opinions and I also think I am rated higher in the straight world than I am in the gay world. What a waste...
Where to even start :-) My first burst out was when the guys said: Hello Tokyo Verse ahahaaaa, Meng at the end: you still have sex what are you complaining about :-D he just killed it :-D Anyhow the interesting part about the language it did happen to me in Korea when I was in Jeju and asked a very simply thing: Can I get a milk and the waiter didn't understand me, even though I tried to say it again and louder, later my Korean colleague told me that many Korean sort of switch their brains off with that's a foreigner there is no chance he/she can speak our language and simply the message doesn't go through at all... it was truly an interesting experience. Oh and BTW as a straight girl I'm giving all of you 10! ❤
Meng is at least a 9, but he compares himself to the standard of men he finds attractive. Some people prefer skinny short guys. Love you, Meng! ♥️
Ok i find the blond guy even more obnoxious than the black one 😂
The blond one can be considered as quite attractive by european beauty standards. He could get many many people in any western country and by western i mean north and south america and Europe.
So its really entitlement that makes him demands the same kind of attention from people raised in another culture.
No, no one has to find him attractive. He should consider himself lucky he is perceived as attractive in so many countries already; but no its not prejudice if Japanese people have different beauty standards.
Its actually very interesting this colonial mindset, of demanding autochthonous people of a country where you chose to live to adopt your customs and your beauty standards, so people will fuck with you more
Love this channel guys. Planning my first visit to Japan next year. Hard to figure out where to go but got some good pointers on some of you other videos. Much appreciated.
Omg it’s so nice to see all of you again! 👏🏽
You should do a part 2 of this discussion. I think you just touched upon it and I would like to hear more.
I am American, and had very similar feelings in Japan. I love it there, and the people are very friendly, but... they are racist. They. Just. Are. I have lived in the Philippines over 10 years, I have permanent residency, but no matter how long I am here, or how friendly people are - I am still, and will always be, a guest. Dating is easy here, because I am an exotic. But no matter what, I will be an outsider. I think Japan is the same in that regard. 😎
Americans and Canadians are expected to return back home at some point of their life even if they are living abroad as an ex patriot and the reason for that is that the US and Canada has something to offer for that ex patriot that no other country can offer and this is the reason why Americans and Canadians are always treated as a guest around the world. Many people will immigrate to the US with the intent of dying in the US and thus they are not treated as a guest in the US. Any other country and you probably would not be treated as a guest where ever you go and thus it is more of an American thing than anything else. Do not forget that many people around the world are envious of Americans and they are not really being racist. My parents immigrated to the US from Europe long ago and thus the reason why I know all of this.
@@mjohnson9563 I am retired and living on the beach - why would anyone expect me to go back to the old country? IF they bothered to get to know me at all, they would know that I am here for the duration. I have been to Japan at least a dozen times - they are usually friendly, but they are in fact racist. 😎
@@freemagicfunthat doesn’t sound racist. Discriminatory maybe, but that’s not racism. Japan is a homogenous country, and I think it’s appropriate to judge with different standards.
All the boys in the panel are super cute! So you have absolutely nothing to worry about! Enjoyed the discussion!
I just randomly ran onto your channel. Who knew I needed this in my life. You guys are so cute and smart and outwardly respectful of eachother . What a refreshing conversation.
2:15 It’s like Samantha from SATC: “I’m counting.”
I couldn't help laugh with tears when you guys mention Sima aunty. Good to know both Andrew and Meng love watching Indian Matchmaking. I totally agree that those who said they have low standards for a bf are having high standards indeed. They just deny it.
I want to meet Sima Aunty haha 😂
@@TokyoBTM me too 😂😂
Men are wired differently as we tend to be stimulated visually. Gay men just take it to another search-for-holy-grail level. Essentially most, if not all, are looking for a gogo boy type but they don't reflect and think, what can they offer to those gogo boys. Also, I feel for Meng as I have a similar physique and am ethnically Chinese so I hear you sis. WE ARE NOT UGLY!
Meng did not just blurt out “greed” 🔥
Meng is real, funny and witty and he not even have to try to acting like that.
the candid thoughts and the push back was refreshing and a testament to your guys' friendships
I think you are all just thinking too much. Some people just aren’t your match. Just because you want them doesn’t mean they want you. Its not about race all the time…
11:18 I’ve tried to ‘settle’ but it can hurt your self-esteem because that diminishes the capacity to be assertive. Being open within reason is the ideal.
Also thank you for the honesty. We're all adults here and it's OK to discuss the less fun realities and in fact you're giving people a useful heads-up.
This is my opinion as a Japanese gay man.
Many Japanese gays look at you as an object of admiration.
Without the magic lamp, Aladdin can only admire Jasmine from afar. Magic lamp here means English conversation.
As English became more powerful, Japanese people who were not good at English conversation became intimidated and hesitated to approach.
It's not that we aren't interested in you.😉