My controls weren't working And if they were, you were playing dishonorably And if you weren't, you are playing without skill And if you were, it's not fun to play that way And if it is, you only care about winning Amen
Man this is why when my controllers do malfunction in locals I don't say much because I'm worried people will think I'm trying to get an excuse in haha
Sure but it's worth more, the discussion, that is because it makes us fighting game players appear elite at what we do, unique. That's why I like fighting games because it makes me stand out in my circle of gamers. I also have cool stories because of them.
Its the classic math thing. ”Why do I need to show my work, i’ll just use a calculator?”. Well you do it because you want a good grade, same thing. You do it because you wanna win. Might feel feel dumb but thats life sometimes.
@@timjonsson2602 That's just teenagers thinking they aren't kids. LOL. The main reason you 'show your work' is to challenge your brain, or reinforce a concept you need to have in long term memory.
A pokemon analogy would be using a fire type move against a pokemon that looks like a flower but it's water type. Doesn't make sense? You don't like it? Cool. But that's how the game is and if you want to win you gotta learn and adapt.
The only thing to note is that games should be good at teaching the player or offering the tools to learn. Pokemon actually tells you what is super effective, so you don't even need to test what is advantageous if just one of your moves is super effective. You will have to recognise abilities, their moves and other traits so that doesn't negate the game (though I'd rather have the weakness tip off). Some fighting games don't have good training tools and very few in general allow you to play with DLC characters in training before buying them which is part of why they are harder to learn to how to counterplay.
I think with Pokémon it's different because when you attack that dumb fuck Sudowoodo it'll be clear sooner rather than later. But when you fail to punish Nash's sweep ten times in a row there's never anything that says "it's not very effective...".
@@saviorofseals5111 The fact that it failed ten times in a row should in itself be a pretty loud message that it's not very effective. Not that you can always tell with the netcode being what it is...
That's like when you encounter Soodowoodo for the first time and you totally get jebaited thinking he's a tree so you throw out your Quilava and try a flamethrower and then he just Laughs in Not Very Effective and counters with a Rock Throw and your pansy little fire starter gets one-shot like the scrub you are.
@@Copperhell144 It could be the netcode being shit. It could be that your timing is off - and if it is off, were you too fast or too slow? It could be that the characters' move has partial invulnerability which isn't displayed or conveyed at all. When Interactions are this open and confusing, the solution isn't, "Just do something else, lol". It could very well be that you made the right call, but something messed up or you need to tighten up on execution. But without one of these being conveyed, figuring this kind of stuff out is ridiculously hard and frustrating.
I literally had this happen to me like an hour ago. I was paying MK11 and a dude threw a tantrum after I beat him because I was using throws a bunch. I told him that just ducking or down 2ing would beat it if he wasn't comfortable teching yet, and he made a bunch of excuses about how you would have to read the throw and they're unreactable. (They're not) After basically telling him "hey bud, that's how the game works, either learn how to play around it or keep losing" he just called me a bitch for using throws. Sometimes I don't understand why these people play fighting games.
Mk11 throws are bs, but so is this crybaby. I hated the game and I dropped it, why would you wanna torture yourself playing it, if you don't like it. Throws is an essential part of game, everybody gonna use it, if you rage every time someone uses them more than twice, might aswell don't play the game
@@thessk_1 yeah, I can certainly understand why people become bitter, but personally attacking someone is silly. I guess "bitch" isn't a particularly cruel insult but still.
Once I read, "MK11" I didn't have to even read further. Stop playing that game is the only way to adapt. It literally goes against every thought process of fighting games I have been taught and know. There's no reason to waste your intelligence on that game because it doesn't reward it. MK9 was better.
I feel like the reasonable middle ground is perfectly fair. If something appears deceptive, you can say the game got you the first time, doesnt give you accurate visuals or feedback or etc. Maybe maybe even the second time if it's really nonsensical. But everytime after that it's just not logical to say its not your fault at all.
Basically the fromsoft strategy Hit somebody with something that’s absolutely absurd, but make sure the boss does it the same way every time so you see it coming after getting blown away a few tomes
I'm pretty new to Tekken, and I've been playing Yoshimitsu. I played a Steve online the other day who murdered me 5 matches in a row while I figured out what tools I had that were quicker than his options, then I won a match, lost two more, but then I won 3 in a row before he stopped rematching me. It was so gratifying to learn and apply what worked in that matchup, and this video describes that process. I had so much fun getting my ass beat with intention!
@@HighLanderPonyYT man at a certain point with this Steve I had to just start throwing 10 frame jabs and D+4 to get any damage and I won an entire round just throwing out quick, low damage options. Then I worked in slightly slower attacks until I knew what worked where. It's kinda fun to just take the 10 frame and see if you can beat somebody with just low damage shit, and it helps your fundamentals really
This argument can sorta come down to people who learn a handful of things and think okay I'm done now and just play to win, vs people who constantly are just playing to learn all the time. I play Tekken, and there are tons of instances where I think okay they did this thing and I feel like *this* should beat it, but then maybe it doesn't. Does it frustrate me? Sure. But my immediate question in those situations is okay, what would work/what else can I try? You can also boil it down to two types of people. Grunts/"tough guys" and thinking men. Most people feel like fighting in general is a "tough guy" thing...but it really isn't. It's a thinking man's game. Physically and virtually.
The player has a responsibility to learn the game on its own terms and learn the interactions as they actually happen. But the designers have a responsibility to communicate the mechanics clearly. Disjointed moves should look disjointed, overheads should look like overheads (Dust moves in GG do not, for instance), and tanks should look tanky. It's perfectly valid to complain that the learning process is unnecessarily difficult because the game doesn't work intuitively.
This whole thing needs a bit of an addendum: the game has a duty to actually teach you shit. Someone who hasn't watched videos on sf4 is not to blame if they get hit by fuzzies, even if it keeps happening, until they figure out what exactly is going on and how to avoid it, and even then there's something of a grace period. Sometimes it's your fault, sure, but the game failing to teach you the properties of a move, the game failing to communicate how to actually block/tech/avoid this attack, is on the game.
A recent example of this for me was when in T7 I was trying to do a frame trap to Lei and it wasn't working, a frame trap that is guaranteed on EVERY character, but it kept trading with him. So after the 4th trade, i thought: it HAS to be his move, something's different about it. Went to training mode and realized: his WS.3 is 10 frames so it will ALWAYS trade with a button, including 10 frame jabs. But, his WS.3 is actually -16 (launch punishable) on block, and that's the weakness. Knowing that now has added key knowledge to the matchup.
My character is one of the weirdest of my main game (Suwako in Hisoutensoku), so this is used a lot. when my character crouches, she becomes taller but can high-profile some moves (because crouching makes her spawn a lilypad in which she sits at), and vice-versa when standing, also has a low that comes from the air regardless of how high my character is (it spawns a tree, kinda like Arakune's j.xD, except it hits low, that said, the game's high / low is different from other games). This kind of things make it so people usually go against my character saying that it's bullshit and it doesn't make sense, but most, if not every info about my character is documented both in the game's fan wiki and the japanese fan wiki. Though everything said, my character isn't even the strongest, she's just a bit different, and doesn't even have deceiving hitboxes or sprites.
I have a hard time with the initial tweets, specifically with anti-airs. Saying that everything's just numbers and knowledge is true, but there's usually unknown/variable factors that make it mathematically imperfect. Display lag, input lag, reaction speed, and of course, netcode delay all introduce some randomness that might be the difference between hitting or missing an anti-air. You could argue that these things need to be factored in: if your timing window is that tight then you should pick a different AA or block, but that introduces another piece to the mental flowchart that could be the difference between picking a good option or a bad one.
@@jwm1444 CDPROJEKTRED, who has the most lenient refund policy on the most leninent marketplace, is proof that does not apply. Also, being more responsible requires information; that information can only be gained from playing the game, because you cannot trust internet opinions with a legion of fanboys hiding a game's flaws and downplaying them when they appear. If a company cannot survive a few refunds, then they do not deserve to exist. Make the game so fun as to not want to make people refund it and people won't.
Li Shengshun That’s one company, and if you expand it to say, a two week window, all that means is people are going to beat games within two weeks and return them to a full or partial refund. My homies used to do that shit all the time to GS back in the day and still do sometimes. And that is subjective, i’ve been playing games my whole life, likely so have you, and i can absolutely tell through a gameplay trailer/gameplay reel or two whether i’m going to like a game or not. It’s the consumers fault if you believe fanboy hype and buy something without properly looking into it. If fanboys weren’t so phobic about reading/listening to reviews for games too, they also wouldn’t have the problem because they’d have multiple different opinions to source along with their friends if they have some.
James Rhodes Just because you abused it, doesn't mean everyone will. Yes, some people will, and those people are the same people who would sail the seven seas and save themselves the hassle of even buying it. The rest would use it properly. Or use Gamefly. As for the trailers bit, that is not subjective. First-hand experience trumps all. Trailers are tailor made to only show a game's good parts, so no, they do not suffice at all in place of first-hand experience. They do not show bad DLC practices, bad netcode, nor bugs. That information can only be gleaned from first-hand experience. That is why trailers are abundant and demos, which used to be a staple, a few. When a game has a demo, it is now news. Steam held an entire game festival...for demoes. This isn't even mentioning the benefit of refund allowing consumers to give more games a chance that they otherwise would not. I say again that if a company cannot handle a few refunds, then they should make their game not worth refunding in the first place. If they get fucked as you put it, so be it. We would all be better off if players would just let go of their attachment to their games so companies can actually feel the consequences of their actions.
This is true to an extent but the fact that games are patched so frequently is an admission on the developers side that there's a limit to how much adjustment they believe there SHOULD be. This is true for both players that have an inherent disadvantage and players that have an easier time. It's fantastic to have a learning mindset, but it's just as important to keep the "game" in the "fighting game" and enjoy slugging at one another.
The only problem I have with this is that sometimes you can't tell if something REALLY doesn't work. It can just be the online input delay screwing you over, or maybe the attack has a weird recovery animation that throws you off. Say, I was fighting a Lancelot that kept doing strings into overhead. I know overheads are slow, so I always contest the overhead with 2M after blocking the string. But, for some reason, against this one Lancelot it didn't work. Still, I kept trying, assuming I was just mistiming it. After eating like ten counter hits, I just gave up and tried to contest with L instead, which thankfully worked but didn't give me a big reward like I could've gotten from 2M. Looking at the frame data afterwards, I still don't see a reason why my 9f 2M wouldn't be able to contest his 26f overhead, especially since he should be minus on block. It's either an input delay thing or maybe the recovery animation is wonky. It doesn't look like I was trying the wrong thing, yet I still got punished for it repeatedly and each time basically cost me the round...
Which is why you put the situation into training mode, and learn your options, and from then on whether or not you do the correct response is all on you - that's what the video is saying. It looks like Granblue universal overheads are -4f on block, which means Lancelot is safe and could block your 2M. But I don't know why you were getting counterhit when his fastest move is 5f lights that would be lower priority than your 2M (right?) - must have been a timing thing.
@@Copperhell144 He is talking about interrupting the overhead with 2M rather than blocking and punishing it with a jab. These are netcode issues and I wish sajam would have mentioned this as an exception in the video. 99% of the time it's your fault, but every once in a while the game's netcode really does screw you, regardless of the game or situation.
Theres an example of moves where you have to play as the character to figure out how to play against Some moves have long windups that are super subtle. So it looks like the move comes out unreactably fast. Turns out you can rundown the attack before they look like they're throwing it out. But you can't know that without playing as the character or researching frame data
Sonic in Smash Bros. is a great example of this. His frame data is awful (dash attack is _-38_ on block!), but people-myself included-complain constantly about how hard it is to counterplay him because he has so many weird-ass movement options and similar-looking moves that it is hard to figure out when he is actually open without just being a Sonic player.
This is a great topic of discussion, I find myself agreeing with everything, but it's hard for me to completely disregard situations where options feels really inconsistent like... super dashes in dbfz crossing you up for no apparent reason, and some interactions in Smash 4 for example (dying at 0% because a move barely hit you and your opponent had rage). This is all of course a matter of knowledge, but you also need to just accept those kind of things and work around them, if you really enjoy the game and want to keep playing. At that point the question is: "Do I really want to play this game if this specific thing is bothering me so much? And if so, how should I deal with it?" So many people get stuck playing a game they say they like, but more often than not they talk A LOT of shit about it without even trying to comprehend the situations they hate. If you don't make the mental effort to accept (or fight against) the things you see as "flaws" or annoying in your game, I think you should just take a break or play another one instead. I'm talking from personal experience, I used to be the biggest scrub, low tier main and all the classics, what a loser I don't know if this makes any sense but I'm postin' anyway
Yh I agree except the super dashes randomly crossing up is more like a bug than a designed property. That's not really something u adapt to cuz it just happens randomly. There's no problem with the speed or priority and it's not something to get too hung up on but bugs are different.
Yeah, but I think inconsistency is a bigger topic in games Sajam does not regularily play like Smash Bros. If that inconsistency is a one time thing (or heavily based on luck like Fausts Items in GG / G&W Hammer in Smash) you have all the right to complain imo. However if it is something that occurrs with some regularity you should be able to protect yourself (e.g. by not relying on an inconsistent move)
The worst thing tho When you get the right read Do the right option But you read too far ahead and you get hit in recovery frames (Example when you input a low parry as geese cause you see a low coming... But you did it too early cause you saw it so far ahead, and then you get hit in its recovery) 0_o;
“Fighting games are visual so things should visually make sense”. This is my biggest gripe with MK1 rn. I do a string, and a move that hits someone’s chest is mid, and a move that hits his waist or thigh is a high. It make-a no sense!!!
This is so true in a broader context. This is probably 95% of what I need to teach people in martial arts before they can even begin to learn the art itself.
Can't exactly practice against troublesome characters in training mode when I have to first cough up cash to buy them to even train with them though. Things get even murkier when you factor in netcode, display lag, and all that jazz affecting reaction times.
Li Shengshun Hard agree. This is the fighting game equivalent of being p2w and what sucks is they’ll do this AFTER charging you the full $60 price for the base game. Leveraging the player’s success in what is most often the only game mode(online versus) that keeps them playing is a shitty practice.
@@Sakaki98 And that is why I quit supporting the game and really playing them at all. We still have to fight for basic functionality on top of being nickled and dimed for it at the same time.
I play DoA. And I have a problem with one of the moves of Hitomi. I labbed… So: Ok. I can sidewalk it. I don't. I can, but I don't do it in a real match. Ok. At least, block it. No? I feel so stupid. But why I can't do everything right, when I really know, what should I do? What stops me after realisation of the incoming attack, just to press one button, and do a punish after all?
Agreed for modern fg games. There are some old, and by old I mean 90's fg games, that are not 100% deterministic however, so you sometimes would have rng save you or screw you over without any way for you to control it. Sometimes they would have variable damage and or stun values. Even worse, sometimes there were hidden mechanics where every set number of moves the next one would gain a property it shouldn't have, like say invincibility frames or otg capabilities. Desk made a video detailing one such mechanic for SF2 if anyone is interested.
But games need to actually give some explanation for why things are happening. For example Tekken 7, as recently discovered by Majin, if you back dash and have a frame of neutral rather than hold back it makes some moves whiff. If you want to learn why this is and without using any outside programs or any non official literature on Tekken you will never be able to figure out why this happens. Same with sidestepping moves and when you should press a button to punish, without outside assistance within the game there is no explanation of anything regarding this. As for the opening argument of "You are ultimately responsible for every interaction when you play a fighting game. If a move doesn't work the way you expect and it causes you to lose, the game is not to blame for this, you are" this could be applied to pretty much anything in any game, fighting game or not. It's often just an excuse for bad design. A common problem in both fighting games and other games are bad hurtboxes and hitboxes. If you are playing Halo for instance, you are not at fault for getting shot in the head if your hitbox extended above the texture of your head and the cover it was behind, just as you are not at fault for getting hit by a move which doesn't connect with your character model. It isn't your opponents fault that this happens either, nor is it their fault if, for instance, moves just phase through them. This is the games error. Yes you can learn about these inconsistencies and then account for them in gameplay but that doesn't mean there is not an error on the games behalf when someone loses because of them. It is not the players fault that they don't know that it is better to just get hit by Kings df1 in Tekken 1 than to block it, it is the games fault. Even if the player knows to just take the hit it is still a fault in the game. As a quick tangent back to hitboxes and hurtboxes: Don't give me the bs that it isn't possible to make them effectively perfectly aligned with the visuals that you see. It is more time consuming but if you have ever tried to make a fighting game or really any game with collision (pretty much any game) you know that it is doable.
so the thing is you'll constantly try to find a way to get their hurtboxes, get pissed, spend all your neurons during 3 rounds and the vega player will be like "cr. HP go go weee yaaaauwachau"
I've never understood the mentality of "that was dumb that should have worked". Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is literal insanity. People getting mad over their first thought being incorrect is just ego getting in the way of logic.
Mindset is so important for improvement, as a smash player if I got mad at every stupid thing in the game I'd hate playing against every character. Everything is beatable and figuring out counterplay (for me) is extremely fun
HighLanderPony Agreed, but the community for most competitive fighting games is pretty large. Chances are if you're having a problem, someone else has had the same one. A lot of that time and effort can be avoided by consulting with the community. If you're not willing to put in the effort to learn the execution of counterplay though, why play the game at all?
HighLanderPony imo your mindset has to change. The beauty of fighting games is finding a new puzzle to figure out, that's why games "die" after people feel like the metagame is being solved. Fighting games are a skill, you're going to have to put in the timr no matter what. Try to have fun putting the time in
Remember when 7 leroy got into evo japan 2020 top 8? I agree with your opinion but some people use those very points to dismiss something that is clearly wrong with the game.
I’m fucking guilty of this shit! I need to fix my approach, but it’s so difficult when some of the shit in these games is either inconsistent or just so damn stupid! I must adapt to the game and not keep hoping the code will adapt to me!!! Great video Sajam!!!
Somewhat interesting how different this is from league, where understanding what bullshit sorcery just happened probably requires preknowledge of how the game's spaghetti code has screwed you over
I have stopped questioning how I get hit by nautilus hook, also I had to do some digging to stop getting confused by the river height difference making it seem like skillshots should/shouldn't be hitting
Code is inherently restrictive in a way that, unless the move/game is *absolutely* busted, in a way that is *much more* fucked than what people argue is fucked, it is always going to act the same way in the same specific situations. That situation might be incredibly tight, too tight to even be useful, but it’s still the same every time.
The only interaction like these that tilts me is when a move has a hitbox where it shouldn't because there is nothing there to convey i would get hit like a visible queue like a fireball or a fist. For example when a chacter does a move and has a hitbox behind them without having anything telling me so... However i just get hit once or twice by that junk
This just happened to me. I baited wake up sparking, but Kefla's 5H didn't go as far as I thought it did. But that's my unfamiliarity with her normals.
This personally makes me think of me using a Reverse Passing Link in UNIB. Whenever I use it, it feels more like a happy accident as opposed to something intentional. Must be the Vita controls tho. And I expect a reason for people (including me) to get hung up over losing is due to shame and salt culture being very prevalent.
This boils down to "choose your pain". Different games have different design choices but none will ever be perfect for any particular player. So being aware of the less desirable design choices you're willing to deal with should factor into the game you choose to play. I'm going to use the weapons with hurtboxes example you mentioned. A buddy thought it was stupid that GBVS puts a hurtbox on weapons. If it's that frustrating that they can't cope with it, then perhaps GBVS doesn't have the design choices for them and they should play something else. It's what I did with SFV. Capcom chose to include Rashid in the game and never removed him, so I stopped playing.
As an old member of Arashi Boards, a forum of the sweatiest Naruto Storm 2 and Generations players, I’ve been telling scrubs this for a decade. If you run into my move... over and over... imma keep doing that shit 🤷🏻♂️
This mentality goes beyond games. Certain people refuse to except the rules of situations. That’s why pain is a thing. It stops people from jumping in fire and swan diving into concrete. If they don’t feel bad from losing the same way then it doesn’t bother them enough to change strategy.
The one place where I feel comfortable really blaming the game is what I like to think of as "hard" rng. Situations where it's basically just a coin-toss whether you do well and there's nothing you can do to play around it suck, and I'm glad they're not really things that show up in fighting games, even when there is some sort of rng present.
I feel this argument would have more weight if every game TAS like tools with the ability to frame advance/save state/view hit boxes. These things that are available in a debug mode normally but are removed in commercial games. Also Capcom games I feel are the worst about this with SF4 being the absolute worst with the way each character had different hit/hurt boxes. Also I don't really believe I could truly say fighting games are truly deterministic or binary. Here's an example, I played a tounament match during SFV S1 with Nash against Claw. Normally, Nash can't cr.mp anti air Ex Wall Dive. Maybe out of 2/10 times, it will work. Before the tournament, I obviously knew about this because I labbed it, and I could not find a single reason why sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't. Maybe if I had access to frame advance and TAS tools, I could've figured out this oh at this specific angle, at this timing it could work, but anyway I played the match and the guy did it 3 times, and for some reason, my anti air cr.mp worked every time. My opponent was forced to conclude Ex Walldive doesn't work to get in, when infact I was extremely lucky the anti air worked. He knew it too because he'd shake his head during the game. If people are going to say this was deterministic, then I don't know what to say. There's countless examples I could think of, but it's not like devs are not aware of this as they make balance adjustments to make moves with their intended purpose easier to use.
I wholeheartedly agree. If you want players to actually learn how the game works, give them proper tools. This is my biggest gripe with fighting games in general. They are getting better but I'm not a pro. I don't wanna spend countless hours in the lab to figure out hitboxes/hurtboxes/frame data. Give us proper tools to view the information. That way, its our choice to learn or not to learn. I work 55+ hours a week and would love to be able to lab every scenario but its just not realistic. I agree with Sajams/infils sentiments though. If I'm not making the right choices, its not the game's fault. That said, the game should open up a reasonable path for me to learn.
@@blade_serenade3333 Japanese salarymen work just as hard and don't use the work excuse yet they're nice but I understand your sentiment. I just hate the people that try to find any excuse as to why fighting games can't be played and enjoyed no matter the approach.
Ariel Nunez yeah you’re also talking about a select few. As a whole, When compared to other games, FGs don’t do a good job of teaching you what to do and when. That’s just facts. That’s like saying “well sonicfox figures it out so you should be able to” yeah those guys are a rare breed. I shouldn’t have to study/practice like a pro to be decent at a game. I’m not saying I wanna win every tourney in the world, I just wanna learn the tools of the trade. FPS games tell you every stat you’d ever need directly outta the box. How much range your gun has, how fast it fires, how big the clip is, how much recoil etc. Can you imagine how hard it’d be to learn an FPS if you had to trial and error all that info?
Just play Tekken my dude. We embrace the rare occurrences of inconsistencies, they are very rare and unintentional, while true crushing(dodging hitbox) situations makes the game. There aren't situations where one option is the correct option.
The only time i complain is like MK9 when I get wiped of something but that's literally the game, or if a character is safe off of literally everything. I just hate having to burn resources to deal with a situation that may happen immediately after again. But most the time I'll be yelling at myself for not knowing how to deal with it. Again Fuzzies in FighterZ or mk9 cause you know NR just make him +50 on block
If you dont adjust and thus dont get better sure thats your fault. But if your leg is inside the enemies head and for some reason the developers didnt put a hurtbox in there its bad design and everyone SHOULD complain about it so we get better designed games. The same thing applies to moves that cross over even though the characters visuals do not indicate it or moves that have hit boxes that far exceed the model of the character. If you just put some god damn pixels in there so ppl can actually see whats happening no1 can blame the game. (note that I dont condemn ambiguous cross ups. But you should at least be able to have a good idea about whether a move could cross up or not. If a character does a jump kick and his model is clearly in front of you but his way to big invisible hit box somehow hits you in the back then that should not be in the game)
Worst example of this is Smash Bros. I'm a super casual, but I have a friend who is semi-competitive locally. And it's just so infuriating the number of times I have to pause and ask "What just happened?!" either because my move doesn't hit or it sends the opponent flying in a super counterintuitive direction or a plethora of other things. I've never played a fighting game that was LESS intuitive than Smash Bros. And worst part is, without access to information on reddit or TH-cam, I'd never get an answer to my question of "wtf just happened?!"
@@philllllllll I think your problem might be that you aren't asking the right questions or that people are too busy making memes to bother helping. I think you should be able to lab and learn to an extent since Smash Ultimate has an alright training mode but you might not know what to look for... Can you try asking me a few of those questions, I'm a competitive casual or something. At worst, I can direct you to a video I think.
@@thelastgogeta no need. I know perfectly well where to go if I want to learn and what ressources are available. I just quit playing Smash entirely because I was fed up with the shit happening on screen not lining up with my assumptions. Which sounds really dumb I know. But consider how, in MK, an uppercut hits someone in the air and also kinda sorta launches them upward. The uppercut is an upward motion and also goes pretty high up, so you'd expect both those things. Whereas Smash Bros. The exact same move wouldn't hit an airborne target AND it wouldn't launch them unless you hit them with the startup animation. It's little things like this that just make me feel like the game is wasting my time. I CAN learn. But I don't want to because the game just destroyed any desire I had to do so.
@@philllllllll Sorry to hear that. Smash is famous for some curious hitboxes, but I would be more surprised if there weren't some anti air oddities in Mortal Kombat (not on the uppercuts which look very standardised). I have experience in many games which have all sorts of quirks (including your example) that I usually adapt to, but next to no Netherrealms experience so I can't comment any further.
one should keep in mind that games are not perfect and sometimes what causes the frustration is not actually a game mechanics but a mere bug. a simple example from tekken world is a side switch on certain wall combos, and don't tell me that developers did that on purpose, I won't buy this :)
In the modern gaming era, games are changed and patched all the time. Game devs, especially western ones, are usually very active on social media and forums and are listening to feedback from everywhere. In the arcade era any complaints about a game were shouted into the void and nothing you said could change it, BUT NOW YOU CAN. If enough people make noise and complain about certain options in a game, especially competition oriented games, there's a chance those complaints can influence game dev's to make changes to address them. I think Gerald from Core-A gaming might have brought this up at some point but the twitter meta is real. Top or notable players downplay their characters strengths and complain about others in hopes that devs change the game in their favor, which does happen sometimes. Also, you can tell everyone to get good or stop playing but often times people like 99% of the game and only have major issues with 1% so they'll play but keep grumbling in hopes that the game will change so that they like 100% of it.
There's plenty of games that do have legit weird moves that do in fact end up getting adjusted. So, I don't think this sentiment is always used as an excuse. The type of game it is can influence these thoughts too. Some games have unfair moves to fight against more than moves not working. That's why I like Virtua Fighter because every situation has an answer and is on you to utilize the various tools. A lot of games aren't like this. Sometimes you just have A. Eat shit and B Eat shit. This is why Fighting games are advocating for more defensive mechanics ultimately whether we accept them or not.
If someone comes from a game that is more honest and consistent (In their opinion) Why would they lower themselves and be put up with their intelligence being insulted? That's why no matter what, (Most) SF players will hate Anime Fighters for being too fast and (Most) Anime players will hate Street Fighter for being too slow. Not everyone has to be all buddy-buddy and accept one anothers' fighting games and play them. Play what you like.
Yeah, It's very difficult for me to take other fighting games seriously after I played Tekken. Not because the other fighting games are inherently bad but because defending is much more intuitive and built into the game. Not having the ability to attempt to sidestep or move backwards against a mixup feels so bad.
@@HighLanderPonyYT oh, that's not what I meant by unreliable. I meant like, you do the same thing in the same situation with all the same variables and it yields a different result because of some unaccounted for RNG (not as a gameplay mechanic) or like the hitboxes randomly shift on their own
Generally, people have picked up the behaviour of complaining about fighting games from the pros, what they don't understand is that pros are basing bad game mech on high level play, not us!
It's because people want perfect games, Sajam. In the 30-odd years I've been playing fighting games for, I've noticed this same thing again and again. If people who complain don't get their expected "perfect result," there's something wrong. With the game. With the character. With the controller. With the TV. With the netcode. With "x" move. But never with them. It never ends. Instead of accepting the difficulties and learning to overcome, they lean on a failure of the design. In some cases that failure *is* accurate, like with netcode or busted hitboxes or character overtuning, but for the most part it's simply a lack of acceptance of the fundamental aspect that connects all fighting games: the challenge of pitting one person against another and dealing with the tools the game gives you, for better and worse. You will fuck up. You will fail. It's literally part of the game. If you can't get used to it, fighting games simply aren't for you.
The only thing I find myself getting tilted by is small buffer windows. If I have a frametrap that requires me to press a button on one of 2 frames because of a complete lack of buffer, I tend to get tilted when I get mashed there. That said, it still is my fault because while the execution is difficult, it’s still my job to do it correctly.
I agree partly with sajam. Ppl should move on and play other stuff. But they should be able to complain too. Plus the example about a patch changing hurt box or recovery frames doesn't necessarily conclude right or wrong. If your teacher makes a typo creating a test and the class sees through it who was wrong
In the case of the test, if the goal is to represent reality with the results reflecting your knowledge... The teacher is wrong. In the case of games, the marking is done by an algorithm which decides reality over the intent of the developer or players. You can say that it is designed poorly, but it is possible that the developer intended something and didn't just fall on their keyboard or blindly develop their game. If it gets patched, that's the new reality till the new DLC character or whatever else. We can definitely talk about if a game has been harmed by things though and I actually recommend learning from the Smash community by modding properties you want if they aren't offered. A competitive scene is possible for that as well.
I think excusing the lack of clarity (especially, but not only, visually) in fighting games is wrong. Why is a new player getting frustrated that their sweep is visually going through the foot of the other player, while the move of the other guy does the opposite? That player is actually NOT at fault, no matter what you believe. Fighting games are complicated, and the rules that underline most interactions are partly (sometimes completely) arbitrary. You won't find that information within the game no matter how hard you search, you have to experiment. That seems backward to me, especially in games where you fight against other humans. You might find ntuitive that going for a meaty throw gets someone hit by a wakeup jab either if they do it too late or too early, but that's your experience talking. Also, not everyone has the same dynamic vision, and it's almost impossible for many to tell the difference. The fact that I can learn to work around the game's flaws, doesn't justify its flaws. But what do I know? I am just a scrub who likes fighting games. I don't have a problem labbing every now and then, I don't get particularly mad if I lose, and I know it's my lack of effort that keeps me from improving significantly, but I don't think this should be necessary, games could do much better at conveying info to people, we are nowhere near the point where fighting games can be excused for having done enough.
At least when a massive hate parade happens to a FG, you can influence where angry players throw their $ next. Glad Capcom helped point out to ppl what devs ppl should support if they want a "well made Capcom-esc FG"
2Hs get Counter Hit all the time when they shouldn't. Most likely due to the netcode. So yeah, that's 100% a flaw with the game but it's not even like it's not a option that always fails, that shit is random and can cost you big.
When you go from "What the fuck was that?" to "Why the fuck did I do that?"
You are already stronger than before.
the “what the fuck was that” to “how the fuck do I counter that” to “when the fuck are they gonna do it so I can land this counter” pipeline is real
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably
And if you weren't, you are playing without skill
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way
And if it is, you only care about winning
Amen
The life of a zoning/setplay player.
Man this is why when my controllers do malfunction in locals I don't say much because I'm worried people will think I'm trying to get an excuse in haha
@@THE_BASED_GOD It's actually the scrub lord's prayer
@@mrevilducky I know this, what does that have to do with anything?
@@THE_BASED_GOD because that's what it is
Real talk, this applies to more than just fighting games.
Sure but it's worth more, the discussion, that is because it makes us fighting game players appear elite at what we do, unique. That's why I like fighting games because it makes me stand out in my circle of gamers. I also have cool stories because of them.
Its the classic math thing. ”Why do I need to show my work, i’ll just use a calculator?”. Well you do it because you want a good grade, same thing. You do it because you wanna win. Might feel feel dumb but thats life sometimes.
@@timjonsson2602 That's just teenagers thinking they aren't kids. LOL. The main reason you 'show your work' is to challenge your brain, or reinforce a concept you need to have in long term memory.
Many fighting game lessons can be real-life lessons. Fighting games are interesting like that.
Most things that fighting games teach you apply to life in general. It really is a beautiful genre.
A pokemon analogy would be using a fire type move against a pokemon that looks like a flower but it's water type. Doesn't make sense? You don't like it? Cool. But that's how the game is and if you want to win you gotta learn and adapt.
The only thing to note is that games should be good at teaching the player or offering the tools to learn.
Pokemon actually tells you what is super effective, so you don't even need to test what is advantageous if just one of your moves is super effective. You will have to recognise abilities, their moves and other traits so that doesn't negate the game (though I'd rather have the weakness tip off).
Some fighting games don't have good training tools and very few in general allow you to play with DLC characters in training before buying them which is part of why they are harder to learn to how to counterplay.
I think with Pokémon it's different because when you attack that dumb fuck Sudowoodo it'll be clear sooner rather than later. But when you fail to punish Nash's sweep ten times in a row there's never anything that says "it's not very effective...".
@@saviorofseals5111 The fact that it failed ten times in a row should in itself be a pretty loud message that it's not very effective. Not that you can always tell with the netcode being what it is...
That's like when you encounter Soodowoodo for the first time and you totally get jebaited thinking he's a tree so you throw out your Quilava and try a flamethrower and then he just Laughs in Not Very Effective and counters with a Rock Throw and your pansy little fire starter gets one-shot like the scrub you are.
@@Copperhell144 It could be the netcode being shit. It could be that your timing is off - and if it is off, were you too fast or too slow? It could be that the characters' move has partial invulnerability which isn't displayed or conveyed at all.
When Interactions are this open and confusing, the solution isn't, "Just do something else, lol". It could very well be that you made the right call, but something messed up or you need to tighten up on execution. But without one of these being conveyed, figuring this kind of stuff out is ridiculously hard and frustrating.
I literally had this happen to me like an hour ago. I was paying MK11 and a dude threw a tantrum after I beat him because I was using throws a bunch. I told him that just ducking or down 2ing would beat it if he wasn't comfortable teching yet, and he made a bunch of excuses about how you would have to read the throw and they're unreactable. (They're not) After basically telling him "hey bud, that's how the game works, either learn how to play around it or keep losing" he just called me a bitch for using throws. Sometimes I don't understand why these people play fighting games.
Mk11 throws are bs, but so is this crybaby. I hated the game and I dropped it, why would you wanna torture yourself playing it, if you don't like it. Throws is an essential part of game, everybody gonna use it, if you rage every time someone uses them more than twice, might aswell don't play the game
I can understand being frustrated but the personal attack directly to someone's face is just silly.
Because some people have been playing fighting games for years and STILL struggling so much. It drives a person crazy.
@@thessk_1 yeah, I can certainly understand why people become bitter, but personally attacking someone is silly. I guess "bitch" isn't a particularly cruel insult but still.
Once I read, "MK11" I didn't have to even read further. Stop playing that game is the only way to adapt. It literally goes against every thought process of fighting games I have been taught and know. There's no reason to waste your intelligence on that game because it doesn't reward it. MK9 was better.
you can legit take this as a lesson for life. good shit.
When you side walk and get hit by hellsweep
Me, a Lili main: What are you talking about? I still don't get hit :)
That tweet made me want to uninstall the latest patch and go back to S1
How dare you even attempt to punish an electric you best respect that whiff electric as unpunishable pressure
I feel like the reasonable middle ground is perfectly fair. If something appears deceptive, you can say the game got you the first time, doesnt give you accurate visuals or feedback or etc. Maybe maybe even the second time if it's really nonsensical. But everytime after that it's just not logical to say its not your fault at all.
Basically the fromsoft strategy
Hit somebody with something that’s absolutely absurd, but make sure the boss does it the same way every time so you see it coming after getting blown away a few tomes
FOOTDIVE
gaWd ThIS gAmE IS soO raNdOM
I'm pretty new to Tekken, and I've been playing Yoshimitsu. I played a Steve online the other day who murdered me 5 matches in a row while I figured out what tools I had that were quicker than his options, then I won a match, lost two more, but then I won 3 in a row before he stopped rematching me. It was so gratifying to learn and apply what worked in that matchup, and this video describes that process. I had so much fun getting my ass beat with intention!
Cool, with me it's lose 40 times in a row then maybe land 3 hits then lose another 20 then maybe take a round. I'm out.
@@HighLanderPonyYT man at a certain point with this Steve I had to just start throwing 10 frame jabs and D+4 to get any damage and I won an entire round just throwing out quick, low damage options. Then I worked in slightly slower attacks until I knew what worked where. It's kinda fun to just take the 10 frame and see if you can beat somebody with just low damage shit, and it helps your fundamentals really
This argument can sorta come down to people who learn a handful of things and think okay I'm done now and just play to win, vs people who constantly are just playing to learn all the time. I play Tekken, and there are tons of instances where I think okay they did this thing and I feel like *this* should beat it, but then maybe it doesn't. Does it frustrate me? Sure. But my immediate question in those situations is okay, what would work/what else can I try? You can also boil it down to two types of people. Grunts/"tough guys" and thinking men. Most people feel like fighting in general is a "tough guy" thing...but it really isn't. It's a thinking man's game. Physically and virtually.
"How does this relate to rollback netcode?" made me lose my shit
The player has a responsibility to learn the game on its own terms and learn the interactions as they actually happen. But the designers have a responsibility to communicate the mechanics clearly. Disjointed moves should look disjointed, overheads should look like overheads (Dust moves in GG do not, for instance), and tanks should look tanky. It's perfectly valid to complain that the learning process is unnecessarily difficult because the game doesn't work intuitively.
This whole thing needs a bit of an addendum: the game has a duty to actually teach you shit. Someone who hasn't watched videos on sf4 is not to blame if they get hit by fuzzies, even if it keeps happening, until they figure out what exactly is going on and how to avoid it, and even then there's something of a grace period. Sometimes it's your fault, sure, but the game failing to teach you the properties of a move, the game failing to communicate how to actually block/tech/avoid this attack, is on the game.
A recent example of this for me was when in T7 I was trying to do a frame trap to Lei and it wasn't working, a frame trap that is guaranteed on EVERY character, but it kept trading with him. So after the 4th trade, i thought: it HAS to be his move, something's different about it. Went to training mode and realized: his WS.3 is 10 frames so it will ALWAYS trade with a button, including 10 frame jabs. But, his WS.3 is actually -16 (launch punishable) on block, and that's the weakness. Knowing that now has added key knowledge to the matchup.
My character is one of the weirdest of my main game (Suwako in Hisoutensoku), so this is used a lot. when my character crouches, she becomes taller but can high-profile some moves (because crouching makes her spawn a lilypad in which she sits at), and vice-versa when standing, also has a low that comes from the air regardless of how high my character is (it spawns a tree, kinda like Arakune's j.xD, except it hits low, that said, the game's high / low is different from other games).
This kind of things make it so people usually go against my character saying that it's bullshit and it doesn't make sense, but most, if not every info about my character is documented both in the game's fan wiki and the japanese fan wiki. Though everything said, my character isn't even the strongest, she's just a bit different, and doesn't even have deceiving hitboxes or sprites.
This video is godlike, I'm about to start sending it to people that do this
It's like the positive troll
0:50 the moment that instantly came to mind was the Excellent Adventures episode with Maximilian.
th-cam.com/video/H5XBEIou1to/w-d-xo.html for reference.
YES. SAME. "My fight moneyyy"
you can flash kick dhalsims fierce, they just didn’t time it properly
Actually, GENUINELY funny.
Only Mike Ross can lose a bet he actually won
I have a hard time with the initial tweets, specifically with anti-airs. Saying that everything's just numbers and knowledge is true, but there's usually unknown/variable factors that make it mathematically imperfect. Display lag, input lag, reaction speed, and of course, netcode delay all introduce some randomness that might be the difference between hitting or missing an anti-air. You could argue that these things need to be factored in: if your timing window is that tight then you should pick a different AA or block, but that introduces another piece to the mental flowchart that could be the difference between picking a good option or a bad one.
I feel like the “deciding if this game is for you” is the hardest part, people like to squat than move on, lol
A more lenient refund window would help wonders.
Li Shengshun that just fucks the companies in the end, what people need to do is learn some responsibility with their money when it comes to games
@@jwm1444 CDPROJEKTRED, who has the most lenient refund policy on the most leninent marketplace, is proof that does not apply. Also, being more responsible requires information; that information can only be gained from playing the game, because you cannot trust internet opinions with a legion of fanboys hiding a game's flaws and downplaying them when they appear. If a company cannot survive a few refunds, then they do not deserve to exist. Make the game so fun as to not want to make people refund it and people won't.
Li Shengshun That’s one company, and if you expand it to say, a two week window, all that means is people are going to beat games within two weeks and return them to a full or partial refund. My homies used to do that shit all the time to GS back in the day and still do sometimes.
And that is subjective, i’ve been playing games my whole life, likely so have you, and i can absolutely tell through a gameplay trailer/gameplay reel or two whether i’m going to like a game or not. It’s the consumers fault if you believe fanboy hype and buy something without properly looking into it. If fanboys weren’t so phobic about reading/listening to reviews for games too, they also wouldn’t have the problem because they’d have multiple different opinions to source along with their friends if they have some.
James Rhodes Just because you abused it, doesn't mean everyone will. Yes, some people will, and those people are the same people who would sail the seven seas and save themselves the hassle of even buying it. The rest would use it properly. Or use Gamefly.
As for the trailers bit, that is not subjective. First-hand experience trumps all. Trailers are tailor made to only show a game's good parts, so no, they do not suffice at all in place of first-hand experience. They do not show bad DLC practices, bad netcode, nor bugs. That information can only be gleaned from first-hand experience. That is why trailers are abundant and demos, which used to be a staple, a few. When a game has a demo, it is now news. Steam held an entire game festival...for demoes.
This isn't even mentioning the benefit of refund allowing consumers to give more games a chance that they otherwise would not.
I say again that if a company cannot handle a few refunds, then they should make their game not worth refunding in the first place. If they get fucked as you put it, so be it. We would all be better off if players would just let go of their attachment to their games so companies can actually feel the consequences of their actions.
This is true to an extent but the fact that games are patched so frequently is an admission on the developers side that there's a limit to how much adjustment they believe there SHOULD be. This is true for both players that have an inherent disadvantage and players that have an easier time. It's fantastic to have a learning mindset, but it's just as important to keep the "game" in the "fighting game" and enjoy slugging at one another.
The only problem I have with this is that sometimes you can't tell if something REALLY doesn't work. It can just be the online input delay screwing you over, or maybe the attack has a weird recovery animation that throws you off.
Say, I was fighting a Lancelot that kept doing strings into overhead. I know overheads are slow, so I always contest the overhead with 2M after blocking the string. But, for some reason, against this one Lancelot it didn't work. Still, I kept trying, assuming I was just mistiming it.
After eating like ten counter hits, I just gave up and tried to contest with L instead, which thankfully worked but didn't give me a big reward like I could've gotten from 2M. Looking at the frame data afterwards, I still don't see a reason why my 9f 2M wouldn't be able to contest his 26f overhead, especially since he should be minus on block. It's either an input delay thing or maybe the recovery animation is wonky. It doesn't look like I was trying the wrong thing, yet I still got punished for it repeatedly and each time basically cost me the round...
Which is why you put the situation into training mode, and learn your options, and from then on whether or not you do the correct response is all on you - that's what the video is saying.
It looks like Granblue universal overheads are -4f on block, which means Lancelot is safe and could block your 2M. But I don't know why you were getting counterhit when his fastest move is 5f lights that would be lower priority than your 2M (right?) - must have been a timing thing.
@@Copperhell144 He is talking about interrupting the overhead with 2M rather than blocking and punishing it with a jab. These are netcode issues and I wish sajam would have mentioned this as an exception in the video. 99% of the time it's your fault, but every once in a while the game's netcode really does screw you, regardless of the game or situation.
@@Copperhell144 Training mode is boring.
@@WileyKing But he was talking about the overhead being minus on block? I must have misunderstood.
@@HighLanderPonyYT Then fighting games are not for you. Or at least, getting really good at fighting games is not for you.
Theres an example of moves where you have to play as the character to figure out how to play against
Some moves have long windups that are super subtle. So it looks like the move comes out unreactably fast.
Turns out you can rundown the attack before they look like they're throwing it out.
But you can't know that without playing as the character or researching frame data
Sonic in Smash Bros. is a great example of this. His frame data is awful (dash attack is _-38_ on block!), but people-myself included-complain constantly about how hard it is to counterplay him because he has so many weird-ass movement options and similar-looking moves that it is hard to figure out when he is actually open without just being a Sonic player.
This is a great topic of discussion, I find myself agreeing with everything, but it's hard for me to completely disregard situations where options feels really inconsistent like... super dashes in dbfz crossing you up for no apparent reason, and some interactions in Smash 4 for example (dying at 0% because a move barely hit you and your opponent had rage). This is all of course a matter of knowledge, but you also need to just accept those kind of things and work around them, if you really enjoy the game and want to keep playing. At that point the question is: "Do I really want to play this game if this specific thing is bothering me so much? And if so, how should I deal with it?"
So many people get stuck playing a game they say they like, but more often than not they talk A LOT of shit about it without even trying to comprehend the situations they hate.
If you don't make the mental effort to accept (or fight against) the things you see as "flaws" or annoying in your game, I think you should just take a break or play another one instead.
I'm talking from personal experience, I used to be the biggest scrub, low tier main and all the classics, what a loser
I don't know if this makes any sense but I'm postin' anyway
Yh I agree except the super dashes randomly crossing up is more like a bug than a designed property. That's not really something u adapt to cuz it just happens randomly. There's no problem with the speed or priority and it's not something to get too hung up on but bugs are different.
Yeah, but I think inconsistency is a bigger topic in games Sajam does not regularily play like Smash Bros.
If that inconsistency is a one time thing (or heavily based on luck like Fausts Items in GG / G&W Hammer in Smash) you have all the right to complain imo.
However if it is something that occurrs with some regularity you should be able to protect yourself (e.g. by not relying on an inconsistent move)
This doesn't just apply to fighting games, its applies to life.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do"
The worst thing tho
When you get the right read
Do the right option
But you read too far ahead and you get hit in recovery frames
(Example when you input a low parry as geese cause you see a low coming... But you did it too early cause you saw it so far ahead, and then you get hit in its recovery) 0_o;
“Fighting games are visual so things should visually make sense”. This is my biggest gripe with MK1 rn. I do a string, and a move that hits someone’s chest is mid, and a move that hits his waist or thigh is a high. It make-a no sense!!!
This is so true in a broader context. This is probably 95% of what I need to teach people in martial arts before they can even begin to learn the art itself.
Can't exactly practice against troublesome characters in training mode when I have to first cough up cash to buy them to even train with them though. Things get even murkier when you factor in netcode, display lag, and all that jazz affecting reaction times.
Not giving people training access to all chars is one of the scummiest moves I've ever seen pulled.
Li Shengshun
Hard agree. This is the fighting game equivalent of being p2w and what sucks is they’ll do this AFTER charging you the full $60 price for the base game. Leveraging the player’s success in what is most often the only game mode(online versus) that keeps them playing is a shitty practice.
@@Sakaki98 And that is why I quit supporting the game and really playing them at all. We still have to fight for basic functionality on top of being nickled and dimed for it at the same time.
I feel personally attacked :(
Well at least now you know how to block and punish that personal attack instead of just blaming the game :)
Good, I hope you will be better player
I play DoA. And I have a problem with one of the moves of Hitomi. I labbed… So:
Ok. I can sidewalk it. I don't. I can, but I don't do it in a real match.
Ok. At least, block it. No?
I feel so stupid. But why I can't do everything right, when I really know, what should I do? What stops me after realisation of the incoming attack, just to press one button, and do a punish after all?
This reminds me of liu kang armored punch on mkx, you can only get 1 hit of armor if the enemy hits you late enough. But damn its frustrating
So you're saying I should probably stop doing Raw Bombers as anti-airs? NEVER!
Agreed for modern fg games.
There are some old, and by old I mean 90's fg games, that are not 100% deterministic however, so you sometimes would have rng save you or screw you over without any way for you to control it.
Sometimes they would have variable damage and or stun values. Even worse, sometimes there were hidden mechanics where every set number of moves the next one would gain a property it shouldn't have, like say invincibility frames or otg capabilities. Desk made a video detailing one such mechanic for SF2 if anyone is interested.
But games need to actually give some explanation for why things are happening. For example Tekken 7, as recently discovered by Majin, if you back dash and have a frame of neutral rather than hold back it makes some moves whiff. If you want to learn why this is and without using any outside programs or any non official literature on Tekken you will never be able to figure out why this happens. Same with sidestepping moves and when you should press a button to punish, without outside assistance within the game there is no explanation of anything regarding this.
As for the opening argument of "You are ultimately responsible for every interaction when you play a fighting game. If a move doesn't work the way you expect and it causes you to lose, the game is not to blame for this, you are" this could be applied to pretty much anything in any game, fighting game or not. It's often just an excuse for bad design. A common problem in both fighting games and other games are bad hurtboxes and hitboxes. If you are playing Halo for instance, you are not at fault for getting shot in the head if your hitbox extended above the texture of your head and the cover it was behind, just as you are not at fault for getting hit by a move which doesn't connect with your character model. It isn't your opponents fault that this happens either, nor is it their fault if, for instance, moves just phase through them. This is the games error. Yes you can learn about these inconsistencies and then account for them in gameplay but that doesn't mean there is not an error on the games behalf when someone loses because of them. It is not the players fault that they don't know that it is better to just get hit by Kings df1 in Tekken 1 than to block it, it is the games fault. Even if the player knows to just take the hit it is still a fault in the game.
As a quick tangent back to hitboxes and hurtboxes: Don't give me the bs that it isn't possible to make them effectively perfectly aligned with the visuals that you see. It is more time consuming but if you have ever tried to make a fighting game or really any game with collision (pretty much any game) you know that it is doable.
Leffen should watch this video on repeat.
Sun's too OP, had to stop playing Outside because I got too frustrated.
Still waiting for the atmosphere buff next patch
so the thing is
you'll constantly try to find a way to get their hurtboxes, get pissed, spend all your neurons during 3 rounds and the vega player will be like
"cr. HP go go weee yaaaauwachau"
I've never understood the mentality of "that was dumb that should have worked". Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is literal insanity. People getting mad over their first thought being incorrect is just ego getting in the way of logic.
Mindset is so important for improvement, as a smash player if I got mad at every stupid thing in the game I'd hate playing against every character. Everything is beatable and figuring out counterplay (for me) is extremely fun
That first sentence perfectly encapsulates LTG's experience with every single game he plays, fighting game or not.
The question isn't whether it's beatable, the question is whether that's worth the time or effort.
HighLanderPony Agreed, but the community for most competitive fighting games is pretty large. Chances are if you're having a problem, someone else has had the same one. A lot of that time and effort can be avoided by consulting with the community. If you're not willing to put in the effort to learn the execution of counterplay though, why play the game at all?
@@Simon_E32 I'm not. Lul
I wish it was easier and I could get to the fun part faster. But going by FG history, that isn't happening.
HighLanderPony imo your mindset has to change. The beauty of fighting games is finding a new puzzle to figure out, that's why games "die" after people feel like the metagame is being solved. Fighting games are a skill, you're going to have to put in the timr no matter what. Try to have fun putting the time in
My moves were calculated.
But man, I am bad at math.
Remember when 7 leroy got into evo japan 2020 top 8? I agree with your opinion but some people use those very points to dismiss something that is clearly wrong with the game.
You don't know how hard it is to make people understand this
the fucking rollback question in the end got me
I’m fucking guilty of this shit! I need to fix my approach, but it’s so difficult when some of the shit in these games is either inconsistent or just so damn stupid! I must adapt to the game and not keep hoping the code will adapt to me!!! Great video Sajam!!!
Reminds me when my buddy said his cousin always beat him by spamming Ryu’s uppercut, and I had to explain that it’s invincible but punishable.
Somewhat interesting how different this is from league, where understanding what bullshit sorcery just happened probably requires preknowledge of how the game's spaghetti code has screwed you over
*keeps getting stunned by Event Horizon when Rocket Jumping over it*
I have stopped questioning how I get hit by nautilus hook, also I had to do some digging to stop getting confused by the river height difference making it seem like skillshots should/shouldn't be hitting
Code is inherently restrictive in a way that, unless the move/game is *absolutely* busted, in a way that is *much more* fucked than what people argue is fucked, it is always going to act the same way in the same specific situations.
That situation might be incredibly tight, too tight to even be useful, but it’s still the same every time.
bug report: when i press a button my opponent does not instantly die
Just because you made the right read doesn't mean you made the right option select
This was like that for me tbh especially playing mk11 on release and I did what i wanted to do instead of how the game actually flows and works
Holy Moly! look at the size of that sajam!
This video is just exposing me when i have to deal with elphelt shotgun stance
ps im slowly learning what to do against it :)
The only interaction like these that tilts me is when a move has a hitbox where it shouldn't because there is nothing there to convey i would get hit like a visible queue like a fireball or a fist. For example when a chacter does a move and has a hitbox behind them without having anything telling me so... However i just get hit once or twice by that junk
This just happened to me. I baited wake up sparking, but Kefla's 5H didn't go as far as I thought it did. But that's my unfamiliarity with her normals.
How does this apply to 50/50s in SFV?
Sajam has an answer for everything
This personally makes me think of me using a Reverse Passing Link in UNIB.
Whenever I use it, it feels more like a happy accident as opposed to something intentional. Must be the Vita controls tho.
And I expect a reason for people (including me) to get hung up over losing is due to shame and salt culture being very prevalent.
This boils down to "choose your pain". Different games have different design choices but none will ever be perfect for any particular player. So being aware of the less desirable design choices you're willing to deal with should factor into the game you choose to play. I'm going to use the weapons with hurtboxes example you mentioned. A buddy thought it was stupid that GBVS puts a hurtbox on weapons. If it's that frustrating that they can't cope with it, then perhaps GBVS doesn't have the design choices for them and they should play something else.
It's what I did with SFV. Capcom chose to include Rashid in the game and never removed him, so I stopped playing.
It's been my fault for the last 20 tries. I will email the company to explain why this move should work against this move lol.
As an old member of Arashi Boards, a forum of the sweatiest Naruto Storm 2 and Generations players, I’ve been telling scrubs this for a decade. If you run into my move... over and over... imma keep doing that shit 🤷🏻♂️
This mentality goes beyond games. Certain people refuse to except the rules of situations. That’s why pain is a thing. It stops people from jumping in fire and swan diving into concrete. If they don’t feel bad from losing the same way then it doesn’t bother them enough to change strategy.
The one place where I feel comfortable really blaming the game is what I like to think of as "hard" rng. Situations where it's basically just a coin-toss whether you do well and there's nothing you can do to play around it suck, and I'm glad they're not really things that show up in fighting games, even when there is some sort of rng present.
So how we go against lag switcher?
"Common sense? What's that?" lmao
I feel this argument would have more weight if every game TAS like tools with the ability to frame advance/save state/view hit boxes. These things that are available in a debug mode normally but are removed in commercial games. Also Capcom games I feel are the worst about this with SF4 being the absolute worst with the way each character had different hit/hurt boxes. Also I don't really believe I could truly say fighting games are truly deterministic or binary. Here's an example, I played a tounament match during SFV S1 with Nash against Claw. Normally, Nash can't cr.mp anti air Ex Wall Dive. Maybe out of 2/10 times, it will work. Before the tournament, I obviously knew about this because I labbed it, and I could not find a single reason why sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't. Maybe if I had access to frame advance and TAS tools, I could've figured out this oh at this specific angle, at this timing it could work, but anyway I played the match and the guy did it 3 times, and for some reason, my anti air cr.mp worked every time. My opponent was forced to conclude Ex Walldive doesn't work to get in, when infact I was extremely lucky the anti air worked. He knew it too because he'd shake his head during the game. If people are going to say this was deterministic, then I don't know what to say. There's countless examples I could think of, but it's not like devs are not aware of this as they make balance adjustments to make moves with their intended purpose easier to use.
I wholeheartedly agree. If you want players to actually learn how the game works, give them proper tools. This is my biggest gripe with fighting games in general. They are getting better but I'm not a pro. I don't wanna spend countless hours in the lab to figure out hitboxes/hurtboxes/frame data. Give us proper tools to view the information. That way, its our choice to learn or not to learn. I work 55+ hours a week and would love to be able to lab every scenario but its just not realistic. I agree with Sajams/infils sentiments though. If I'm not making the right choices, its not the game's fault. That said, the game should open up a reasonable path for me to learn.
@@blade_serenade3333 Japanese salarymen work just as hard and don't use the work excuse yet they're nice but I understand your sentiment. I just hate the people that try to find any excuse as to why fighting games can't be played and enjoyed no matter the approach.
Ariel Nunez yeah you’re also talking about a select few. As a whole, When compared to other games, FGs don’t do a good job of teaching you what to do and when. That’s just facts. That’s like saying “well sonicfox figures it out so you should be able to” yeah those guys are a rare breed. I shouldn’t have to study/practice like a pro to be decent at a game. I’m not saying I wanna win every tourney in the world, I just wanna learn the tools of the trade. FPS games tell you every stat you’d ever need directly outta the box. How much range your gun has, how fast it fires, how big the clip is, how much recoil etc. Can you imagine how hard it’d be to learn an FPS if you had to trial and error all that info?
Just play Tekken my dude. We embrace the rare occurrences of inconsistencies, they are very rare and unintentional, while true crushing(dodging hitbox) situations makes the game. There aren't situations where one option is the correct option.
My favorite ie when streamers blame lag when there is only a 3 frame delay
*cough* NYChrisG *cough*
@@blade_serenade3333 cloud905 does it all the too. Like I can see your frame delay buddy y'all ain't fooling me
The only time i complain is like MK9 when I get wiped of something but that's literally the game, or if a character is safe off of literally everything. I just hate having to burn resources to deal with a situation that may happen immediately after again. But most the time I'll be yelling at myself for not knowing how to deal with it. Again Fuzzies in FighterZ or mk9 cause you know NR just make him +50 on block
If you dont adjust and thus dont get better sure thats your fault. But if your leg is inside the enemies head and for some reason the developers didnt put a hurtbox in there its bad design and everyone SHOULD complain about it so we get better designed games. The same thing applies to moves that cross over even though the characters visuals do not indicate it or moves that have hit boxes that far exceed the model of the character. If you just put some god damn pixels in there so ppl can actually see whats happening no1 can blame the game. (note that I dont condemn ambiguous cross ups. But you should at least be able to have a good idea about whether a move could cross up or not. If a character does a jump kick and his model is clearly in front of you but his way to big invisible hit box somehow hits you in the back then that should not be in the game)
Worst example of this is Smash Bros. I'm a super casual, but I have a friend who is semi-competitive locally. And it's just so infuriating the number of times I have to pause and ask "What just happened?!" either because my move doesn't hit or it sends the opponent flying in a super counterintuitive direction or a plethora of other things. I've never played a fighting game that was LESS intuitive than Smash Bros.
And worst part is, without access to information on reddit or TH-cam, I'd never get an answer to my question of "wtf just happened?!"
@@philllllllll I think your problem might be that you aren't asking the right questions or that people are too busy making memes to bother helping.
I think you should be able to lab and learn to an extent since Smash Ultimate has an alright training mode but you might not know what to look for... Can you try asking me a few of those questions, I'm a competitive casual or something.
At worst, I can direct you to a video I think.
@@thelastgogeta no need. I know perfectly well where to go if I want to learn and what ressources are available. I just quit playing Smash entirely because I was fed up with the shit happening on screen not lining up with my assumptions. Which sounds really dumb I know. But consider how, in MK, an uppercut hits someone in the air and also kinda sorta launches them upward. The uppercut is an upward motion and also goes pretty high up, so you'd expect both those things.
Whereas Smash Bros. The exact same move wouldn't hit an airborne target AND it wouldn't launch them unless you hit them with the startup animation.
It's little things like this that just make me feel like the game is wasting my time. I CAN learn. But I don't want to because the game just destroyed any desire I had to do so.
@@philllllllll Sorry to hear that. Smash is famous for some curious hitboxes, but I would be more surprised if there weren't some anti air oddities in Mortal Kombat (not on the uppercuts which look very standardised).
I have experience in many games which have all sorts of quirks (including your example) that I usually adapt to, but next to no Netherrealms experience so I can't comment any further.
Great content
the only one that is an exception is super dash in dragon ball i feel that shit goes wild sometimes
Mike "my fight money" Ross?
Nice vid. I like your advices.
Rose, Chun, and Poison throw range is fucking bullshit. Especially in online lag.
Tekken 7 Bob hitbox laughing
one should keep in mind that games are not perfect and sometimes what causes the frustration is not actually a game mechanics but a mere bug. a simple example from tekken world is a side switch on certain wall combos, and don't tell me that developers did that on purpose, I won't buy this :)
In the modern gaming era, games are changed and patched all the time. Game devs, especially western ones, are usually very active on social media and forums and are listening to feedback from everywhere. In the arcade era any complaints about a game were shouted into the void and nothing you said could change it, BUT NOW YOU CAN. If enough people make noise and complain about certain options in a game, especially competition oriented games, there's a chance those complaints can influence game dev's to make changes to address them. I think Gerald from Core-A gaming might have brought this up at some point but the twitter meta is real. Top or notable players downplay their characters strengths and complain about others in hopes that devs change the game in their favor, which does happen sometimes. Also, you can tell everyone to get good or stop playing but often times people like 99% of the game and only have major issues with 1% so they'll play but keep grumbling in hopes that the game will change so that they like 100% of it.
There's plenty of games that do have legit weird moves that do in fact end up getting adjusted. So, I don't think this sentiment is always used as an excuse. The type of game it is can influence these thoughts too. Some games have unfair moves to fight against more than moves not working. That's why I like Virtua Fighter because every situation has an answer and is on you to utilize the various tools. A lot of games aren't like this. Sometimes you just have A. Eat shit and B Eat shit. This is why Fighting games are advocating for more defensive mechanics ultimately whether we accept them or not.
If someone comes from a game that is more honest and consistent (In their opinion) Why would they lower themselves and be put up with their intelligence being insulted? That's why no matter what, (Most) SF players will hate Anime Fighters for being too fast and (Most) Anime players will hate Street Fighter for being too slow. Not everyone has to be all buddy-buddy and accept one anothers' fighting games and play them. Play what you like.
Yeah, It's very difficult for me to take other fighting games seriously after I played Tekken. Not because the other fighting games are inherently bad but because defending is much more intuitive and built into the game. Not having the ability to attempt to sidestep or move backwards against a mixup feels so bad.
@@kylefields3951 Shit.... apparently Murray wants sidestepping gimped on purpose.
@@MoldMonkey93 It really do be like that sometimes... 😢
i will say one thing, successfully jumping over antiair fireballs is fucking bs idc what anyone says, it shouldn't be a thing
Bad game design is like when something is unreliable, and you have no idea how it'll work in any given situation. Everything else is about adaptation.
If players keep using a move how it wasn't intended to be used, the design prolly messed up.
@@HighLanderPonyYT oh, that's not what I meant by unreliable. I meant like, you do the same thing in the same situation with all the same variables and it yields a different result because of some unaccounted for RNG (not as a gameplay mechanic) or like the hitboxes randomly shift on their own
@@niwona_ Ah gotcha. That sucks, too.
Generally, people have picked up the behaviour of complaining about fighting games from the pros, what they don't understand is that pros are basing bad game mech on high level play, not us!
It's because people want perfect games, Sajam. In the 30-odd years I've been playing fighting games for, I've noticed this same thing again and again. If people who complain don't get their expected "perfect result," there's something wrong. With the game. With the character. With the controller. With the TV. With the netcode. With "x" move. But never with them. It never ends.
Instead of accepting the difficulties and learning to overcome, they lean on a failure of the design. In some cases that failure *is* accurate, like with netcode or busted hitboxes or character overtuning, but for the most part it's simply a lack of acceptance of the fundamental aspect that connects all fighting games: the challenge of pitting one person against another and dealing with the tools the game gives you, for better and worse.
You will fuck up. You will fail. It's literally part of the game. If you can't get used to it, fighting games simply aren't for you.
The only thing I find myself getting tilted by is small buffer windows. If I have a frametrap that requires me to press a button on one of 2 frames because of a complete lack of buffer, I tend to get tilted when I get mashed there. That said, it still is my fault because while the execution is difficult, it’s still my job to do it correctly.
I agree partly with sajam. Ppl should move on and play other stuff. But they should be able to complain too. Plus the example about a patch changing hurt box or recovery frames doesn't necessarily conclude right or wrong. If your teacher makes a typo creating a test and the class sees through it who was wrong
In the case of the test, if the goal is to represent reality with the results reflecting your knowledge... The teacher is wrong.
In the case of games, the marking is done by an algorithm which decides reality over the intent of the developer or players. You can say that it is designed poorly, but it is possible that the developer intended something and didn't just fall on their keyboard or blindly develop their game.
If it gets patched, that's the new reality till the new DLC character or whatever else. We can definitely talk about if a game has been harmed by things though and I actually recommend learning from the Smash community by modding properties you want if they aren't offered.
A competitive scene is possible for that as well.
Sajam: Get Gud Scrub
World: This is an outrage! 😂 Or spam booms/fireballs and flash kick/ dp
Fighting games are the best genre. Why, because it's all on U!
I think excusing the lack of clarity (especially, but not only, visually) in fighting games is wrong. Why is a new player getting frustrated that their sweep is visually going through the foot of the other player, while the move of the other guy does the opposite? That player is actually NOT at fault, no matter what you believe. Fighting games are complicated, and the rules that underline most interactions are partly (sometimes completely) arbitrary. You won't find that information within the game no matter how hard you search, you have to experiment. That seems backward to me, especially in games where you fight against other humans.
You might find ntuitive that going for a meaty throw gets someone hit by a wakeup jab either if they do it too late or too early, but that's your experience talking. Also, not everyone has the same dynamic vision, and it's almost impossible for many to tell the difference.
The fact that I can learn to work around the game's flaws, doesn't justify its flaws. But what do I know? I am just a scrub who likes fighting games. I don't have a problem labbing every now and then, I don't get particularly mad if I lose, and I know it's my lack of effort that keeps me from improving significantly, but I don't think this should be necessary, games could do much better at conveying info to people, we are nowhere near the point where fighting games can be excused for having done enough.
Thank you, sir, for being a defender of us newbie scrubs.
FGs are indeed full of arcane, unintuitive garbage.
Thoughts of low tier god passing through~
At least when a massive hate parade happens to a FG, you can influence where angry players throw their $ next. Glad Capcom helped point out to ppl what devs ppl should support if they want a "well made Capcom-esc FG"
Random guy on Twitter typing 5000 word essays for 5 likes 🤣
I will blame the game for nerfing my bois tho.
"Fighting games are deterministic"
*Luigi and Game & Watch look around nervously*
Edit: Somehow I forgot Hero.
Fighting games not a party game.
@@shun4062 Was waiting to see how long it would take for this comment to show up. 7 hours, not bad.
Smash is trash. It literally has inconsistent mechanics unironically.
so basically... shit happens
Fighting games are a fucking job.
I'm still trying to figure out what's this constitution on how each fighting game should be played?
"Just lab it."
ZzZZ
If there's one thing playing melee has taught me it's that sometimes shit just happens and you gotta accept it
What about smash where shit is literally random and inconsistent lmao
This is all true except for when a 2H loses to superdash in FighterZ. Then it’s bullshit lol
2Hs get Counter Hit all the time when they shouldn't. Most likely due to the netcode. So yeah, that's 100% a flaw with the game but it's not even like it's not a option that always fails, that shit is random and can cost you big.
Just in case this isn't a joke, 2h only gains head-invulnerability after 4 frames so if superdash hits, then you 2h'd too late
Or the sd did a swerve and punished you
@@Zetsukun12 yeap. If that's the case, forget 2H-ing then either block the superdash or reflect it
@@Zetsukun12 The same problem still remains in that the connection will mess up your timing and that's not really something you can account for often.