Back in the 60s at our junior high school we had the Royal Canadian Army Cadets and had a small range in the basement where we shot Lee Enfield No. 4 Mark 1s re-barreled to 22 cal. short. It was economical and a great way to learn gun safety and basic 'musketry' and we had a great time.
Hi, german here. Gebiet 17 was not an area in Thüringen, it means all of Thüringen. These HJ areas originated from the Gaustruktur der NSDAP (which means something like district structure of the NSDAP). These areas grew more and more as the Reich got bigger. Here's a map where you can see the HJ areas in 1934 with area 17 roughly in the middle. museenkoeln.de/ausstellungen/nsd_1609_hitlerjugend/abb/K_01_01-04_zD_Seite_4_Bild_0106.jpg
Thanks for the video--you're constantly pushing the frontiers of our knowledge (forgotten & otherwise)! If I can add my 2 cents worth: Nazis, largely following tradition, organized their regions by primarily name, and secondarily number (if required). The control region engraving of this (your) pistol strongly suggests a workaday accounting assignment, via factory order & nazi bureaucracy--as opposed to recognition/presentation. If this pistol required a unit assignment, it would invariably have been applied, likely less expertly, at the local level--similarity as in most nations. There, of course, could be an exception, but exceptions tend to be, well, exceptional. This pistol fits the normal protocols.
When i was in the Navy on the USS TRIPOLI (1988-1992) we had to qualify to carry a 1911 .45 when it came a person's turn to stand a Brow Watch while the ship was in port,the pistols that were used for this qualification were Colt 1911s but they were .22 caliber,we were (ships company,regular navy with aboard ship jobs) but we each were assigned to a inport duty roster and one of those jobs was a 4 hour Brow watch (exit/entry from ship to shore) armed with a 1911 .45,so to qualify to stand that watch,(which was mandatory) we went thru a small arms class and the pistols the instructors used was a 1911 in .22 caliber,maby your Walther .22 falls into that same catigory.
Great story again Tom. Thanks for bringing it to us. Also, the better lighting on the background of the set is a welcome addition. Keep up the good work!
*In the 90s right upto 2000+ I was in export and import business for sports ceremonial arms or army side & edge weapons from WKC Solingen & Koln Germany and some from £ugansk Russia , one of my contacts showed me this identical Kal .22 Walther in its original Carton Box ( I was surprised to see it being completely aimed at youth market - with illustrations were like toy adverts ) While almost unused condition with 2 magazines and cleaning rod I can not remember 1// press button magazine release(That period is always sliding and at the bottom of the grip like the copies made else where - this magazine release seems used or made to look like used) .... 2// nor the etching Gebiet 17 Thueringen, ( a sort of Area number is etched on the slide in German... Also spelling is Thuringen is not with E as on this cal .22 Thueringen ) ... many of you would retort that was 30s & 40s ??? but I couldnt find that historic difference either .... Anyway why not continue in German Kal. 22 as such as after all this was for ultra nationalist youth ( similar to These Young Fascists Blut & Ehre knives) ~ I am still baffled... Why English Language was deployed. I still have no answer ( it is not etched Blood & Honour on the infamous HITLER JUGEND blades does it of the era ??? HAVE LOOK >>>>> ( **www.lakesidetrader.com/Education/Blut-und-Ehre!/** ) ... This friend RIP passed away in year 2000 he must have been in his 60's he was an interesting war child whom I met in 1993 in Koln . He used to reminisce over his father how he shot at FUHRER's picture as target practice in 1943 and survived the OSTFRONT
@ Vista... I'm confused by your remark about Thueringin , either with or without umlaut or use of letter "e" instead. The gun in this vid DOES have the proper (German) umlaut....are you saying this other gun you mention did not have the umlaut? Thank you if you can clarify. As to the heel-type vs Colt-1911 style "button" type mag release, the heel type showed up early, but the 2 styles "come-and-go" throughout the pre-war and war time production period---> www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GW.php
Also something to consider: German gun clubs till today in many cases have “Vereinswaffen” as gun laws are restrictive these weapons are used for qualification and practice of new members. Many local gun clubs have shooting ranges that are approved for air rifles and KK (klein kaliber) only. It is very well feasible that this weapon was from a HJ chapter and marked as chapter weapon.
Very interesting! I'm an Eagle Scout & we used to shoot A LOT of .22 at summer camp & various district camporees. Cheap round in bulk! Another good history lesson!
Interesting? I am not an Eagle scout but I am not a vigil as well are you? The Boy Scouts in Germany pre date us in America. They were "cancelled"in '34 by the pope of Munich but were brought back after he shot himself in the head. My summer camp was Camp McBride, Strawberry Lake, Yosemite Council. We shot skeet 22 birdshot and 22 LR, 1c/Rd, but nothing as thrilling as that German pistol. I did not even know of this pistol until I was 20yo in the Navy when I could have bought one for $150. You would think the company would provide a more respectful, technical, historic assessment of this pistol by someone who can speak German not some scheisse Ami bafoon pedophile. I don't know about you but I can't remember any scout leader ever remarking how cute my shorts are.
OK, you need to do some fact checking. The BSA was founded in 1910; Germany had Scouts in 1909, at roughly the same time as they were established in England. They were not "canceled" in 1934, they were absorbed into the Hitler Youth. Don't be a tool... San Francisco Bay Area Council here. Never had any issues while I was in the Scouts. Not sure why you're going on a pedophilia rant here, but just stop. It's embarrassing.
"Absorbed" into the hitler youth, r u serious? It's ok for you to use figurative language but not me. If this pistol is pre '34, it's not hitler youth, it's German boy scouts. Do u see a hitler youth stamp on it? Thuringen Area Council, Troop 17. It's possible it was hidden away during the whole nazi period. I was awarded the Golden Quill award, were u? Doesn't matter, all that matters to the left coast psychos now is that I was a kid that was molested in the Boy Scouts.
Gebiet 17 is all of Thüringen, I agree. "Gebiet Thüringen 17" however, sounds kind of awkward in German, " Gebiet 17 Thüringen" would sound more natural.
So fascinating! I have an old Walther PP dated from I believe 1938, calibre is in .22LR. Commercial but I am not sure who would have carried such a piece? Likely a training pistol?
Very close on your part, Jim. The two nearly-identical examples of hand-engraved script you showed us are from Klaus and his brother Otto, both of whom trained under the same master engraver. ;^)
Since I follow these guns closely, here is another oddity to cite. Walther PP's in 22LR caliber ( along with Manurhin's from "France" after the war).....at least as it pertains to these post-war common production for both "brands"...... ran common serial numbers. For either "brand", post-war...all the 22 cal Walther PP's serial numbers ended in "LR". The first known number I find, was 10002 LR of 3/54.....and ending in 53841 LR of August, 1985. Interestingly enough.... they DO follow rather consistent build quantities per year (this was NOT expected as you research serial numbers against build-date )...but they DO seem to follow roughly 1414 units per year of 22LR PP production, fairly consistently, without hi-or-low production years to alter the build-date findings. THIS one you show is obviously totally-German made at the original pre-war Zella-Mehlis plant...and shows a "P" suffix. So the question..... did all pre-war production of 22 cal Wather PP's show the "P" suffix?
Well, that was another fascinating show. I wonder what rifle the fellow who traded that to you got. A lesson for all, if you have found something you don’t know about, READ and educate yourself before getting rid of it. I picked up a gun I didn’t recognize for $25. I sold it for $250! Only problem is I found it was worth much more. Oh well, live and learn.
I notice also that the gun has the "later" style safety, where the red mark is not totally straight down at 90 degrees from horizontal ( as the earlier guns were), but instead is somewhat forward from straight down, so....less than 90 degrees down. So 1940's build date assumption seems correct, as I *think" this safety change occured around 1934.
I just picked up a first production year s/n 1952 190xx France made Manurhin PP with the original box and 2 mags. You cover the pre war PP and PPK's but I don't see any post war coverage. It would be nice to get you expertise on the Manurhin produced Walthers. Prices on these models are more affordable however seem to be on a slow but steady rise as I've seen them go for $300 in 2014 and now average $600 - $1200.
What is the proof mark on the gun?...is that a crown-over-N on the barrel shroud?.... an Eagle-over-N?........I can't make out the mark. A deep dig on proofs, and the style used....and which were used for which manufacturer....can help verify this gun's history ( military vs commercial build).... or build date, too. Should probably show up in 3 places....barrel shroud, slide and end-of-barrel ( once slide is pulled back to see).
I didn't explain it well but meant to say that there was a Hitler youth camp there where youth from all over Germany would come for summer camp. And would gets training on 22 caliber rifles and pistols
@@thomaswhiteman4261 Yes that's correct. The gun could've been very well for one of these camps. Here's an article in English on these HJ military training camps, also with overview of the HJ-areas, for anyone who's interested in the topic: www.axishistory.com/books/189-germany-political-organizations/youth/5058-hitlerjugend-wehrertuechtigungslagern-wel
I have a Walther PP on the right side appears like the pistol in your video with two serial numbers on the right side mine do not match and on the left side of the pistol there is nothing it is blank and it has a magazine in it with a strange plastic bottom would appreciate any information
Mismatched parts gun, then, and/or very late war time production or gun made up by parts from the occupying forces...... the number on the frame and slide should match. If you take the slide off, the "inside" may even have hand-engraved last few digits shown.
There are many plastic grips available for PP....some brown, some black, some with thumbrests, some without. Some with/without Walther or Manurhin script. I have a thumbrest set if you need them. Look also on Ebay...you'd be surprised at what you find....also various Walther forums in their user for-sale sections.
There is no "o“ in Walther.. it is actually pronounced as it is written, try a fake posh/british accent for the "a" like in the word dance and you get there..
I DO know that. But the point of the video is to say "why would someone engrave a previously unknown marking with an unknown meaning? And then to find the consecutive numbered PP with the SAME unknown marking with unknown meaning. The odds of it being "faked" in my opinion is exactly ZERO.
My mother was in girls Hitler youth German League of Girls (Bund Deutscher Mädel) BDM in Breslau now Wroclaw Poland , she participated in the siege digging trenches for the fortification of the town against the Russians , she was captured by them and was on the last cattle car out of the east .
Back in the 60s at our junior high school we had the Royal Canadian Army Cadets and had a small range in the basement where we shot Lee Enfield No. 4 Mark 1s re-barreled to 22 cal. short.
It was economical and a great way to learn gun safety and basic 'musketry' and we had a great time.
Tom the gun detective, That was very interesting. Thanks again for a another great video.
Hi, german here.
Gebiet 17 was not an area in Thüringen, it means all of Thüringen. These HJ areas originated from the Gaustruktur der NSDAP (which means something like district structure of the NSDAP). These areas grew more and more as the Reich got bigger. Here's a map where you can see the HJ areas in 1934 with area 17 roughly in the middle. museenkoeln.de/ausstellungen/nsd_1609_hitlerjugend/abb/K_01_01-04_zD_Seite_4_Bild_0106.jpg
that is a sweet map! thanks.
Thank you gun expert not
@@boostedbilly7308 He doesn't need to be a gun expert to know this. His info is helpful.
@@shakerson Not only that, he doesn't really _know_ that moinmoin isn't a "gun expert".
@@moehoward01 exactly !!! I agree with you. (lot of assumptions being made there)
You and Ian Are GREAT Chanel's, ty
channels......🍺
Thanks for the video--you're constantly pushing the frontiers of our knowledge (forgotten & otherwise)!
If I can add my 2 cents worth: Nazis, largely following tradition, organized their regions by primarily name, and secondarily number (if required). The control region engraving of this (your) pistol strongly suggests a workaday accounting assignment, via factory order & nazi bureaucracy--as opposed to recognition/presentation. If this pistol required a unit assignment, it would invariably have been applied, likely less expertly, at the local level--similarity as in most nations. There, of course, could be an exception, but exceptions tend to be, well, exceptional. This pistol fits the normal protocols.
Fascinating! Thank you, Tom!!
When i was in the Navy on the USS TRIPOLI (1988-1992) we had to qualify to carry a 1911 .45 when it came a person's turn to stand a Brow Watch while the ship was in port,the pistols that were used for this qualification were Colt 1911s but they were .22 caliber,we were (ships company,regular navy with aboard ship jobs) but we each were assigned to a inport duty roster and one of those jobs was a 4 hour Brow watch (exit/entry from ship to shore) armed with a 1911 .45,so to qualify to stand that watch,(which was mandatory) we went thru a small arms class and the pistols the instructors used was a 1911 in .22 caliber,maby your Walther .22 falls into that same catigory.
Great story again Tom. Thanks for bringing it to us. Also, the better lighting on the background of the set is a welcome addition. Keep up the good work!
here from Forgotten Weapons, definitely excited to start binging your content!
I see a feature blockbuster coming up... Walter Tom PPK - gun detective
Just what you think you'd know it all you get another curveball
Very interesting history lesson. Thank you.
Thanks for the great presentation, and your request you welcome to increase your knowledge of these topics.
*In the 90s right upto 2000+ I was in export and import business for sports ceremonial arms or army side & edge weapons from WKC Solingen & Koln Germany and some from £ugansk Russia , one of my contacts showed me this identical Kal .22 Walther in its original Carton Box ( I was surprised to see it being completely aimed at youth market - with illustrations were like toy adverts ) While almost unused condition with 2 magazines and cleaning rod I can not remember 1// press button magazine release(That period is always sliding and at the bottom of the grip like the copies made else where - this magazine release seems used or made to look like used) .... 2// nor the etching Gebiet 17 Thueringen, ( a sort of Area number is etched on the slide in German... Also spelling is Thuringen is not with E as on this cal .22 Thueringen ) ... many of you would retort that was 30s & 40s ??? but I couldnt find that historic difference either .... Anyway why not continue in German Kal. 22 as such as after all this was for ultra nationalist youth ( similar to These Young Fascists Blut & Ehre knives) ~ I am still baffled... Why English Language was deployed. I still have no answer ( it is not etched Blood & Honour on the infamous HITLER JUGEND blades does it of the era ??? HAVE LOOK >>>>> ( **www.lakesidetrader.com/Education/Blut-und-Ehre!/** ) ... This friend RIP passed away in year 2000 he must have been in his 60's he was an interesting war child whom I met in 1993 in Koln . He used to reminisce over his father how he shot at FUHRER's picture as target practice in 1943 and survived the OSTFRONT
@ Vista... I'm confused by your remark about Thueringin , either with or without umlaut or use of letter "e" instead. The gun in this vid DOES have the proper (German) umlaut....are you saying this other gun you mention did not have the umlaut? Thank you if you can clarify. As to the heel-type vs Colt-1911 style "button" type mag release, the heel type showed up early, but the 2 styles "come-and-go" throughout the pre-war and war time production period---> www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GW.php
Also something to consider: German gun clubs till today in many cases have “Vereinswaffen” as gun laws are restrictive these weapons are used for qualification and practice of new members. Many local gun clubs have shooting ranges that are approved for air rifles and KK (klein kaliber) only. It is very well feasible that this weapon was from a HJ chapter and marked as chapter weapon.
Very interesting! I'm an Eagle Scout & we used to shoot A LOT of .22 at summer camp & various district camporees. Cheap round in bulk! Another good history lesson!
Interesting? I am not an Eagle scout but I am not a vigil as well are you? The Boy Scouts in Germany pre date us in America. They were "cancelled"in '34 by the pope of Munich but were brought back after he shot himself in the head. My summer camp was Camp McBride, Strawberry Lake, Yosemite Council. We shot skeet 22 birdshot and 22 LR, 1c/Rd, but nothing as thrilling as that German pistol. I did not even know of this pistol until I was 20yo in the Navy when I could have bought one for $150. You would think the company would provide a more respectful, technical, historic assessment of this pistol by someone who can speak German not some scheisse Ami bafoon pedophile. I don't know about you but I can't remember any scout leader ever remarking how cute my shorts are.
OK, you need to do some fact checking. The BSA was founded in 1910; Germany had Scouts in 1909, at roughly the same time as they were established in England. They were not "canceled" in 1934, they were absorbed into the Hitler Youth. Don't be a tool...
San Francisco Bay Area Council here. Never had any issues while I was in the Scouts. Not sure why you're going on a pedophilia rant here, but just stop. It's embarrassing.
Yosemite Area (Gebiet) Council, that's how ignorant this guy is.
"Absorbed" into the hitler youth, r u serious? It's ok for you to use figurative language but not me. If this pistol is pre '34, it's not hitler youth, it's German boy scouts. Do u see a hitler youth stamp on it? Thuringen Area Council, Troop 17. It's possible it was hidden away during the whole nazi period. I was awarded the Golden Quill award, were u? Doesn't matter, all that matters to the left coast psychos now is that I was a kid that was molested in the Boy Scouts.
Interesting and great content as always. Following the logic you must be correct about this weapons history. 👍
Wow! great content and history!
The Mannix of the gat.
Gebiet 17 is all of Thüringen, I agree. "Gebiet Thüringen 17" however, sounds kind of awkward in German, " Gebiet 17 Thüringen" would sound more natural.
Another great video. Thanks,Tom
So fascinating! I have an old Walther PP dated from I believe 1938, calibre is in .22LR. Commercial but I am not sure who would have carried such a piece? Likely a training pistol?
Love learning something new every video
Quite interesting Walther PP! Is there a certain range of serial number that these pistols belong under?
Thanks for the history lesson. Much appreciated!!!
Why qualify on a 22 Cal.?
Answer: Because it has always been that way.
lean in a nissan buy a ford f150...
So true, my range makes new members qualify with a .22 gsg1911
Very close on your part, Jim. The two nearly-identical examples of hand-engraved script you showed us are from Klaus and his brother Otto, both of whom trained under the same master engraver. ;^)
How do you know this information? Or are you bullshitting?
Since I follow these guns closely, here is another oddity to cite. Walther PP's in 22LR caliber ( along with Manurhin's from "France" after the war).....at least as it pertains to these post-war common production for both "brands"...... ran common serial numbers. For either "brand", post-war...all the 22 cal Walther PP's serial numbers ended in "LR". The first known number I find, was 10002 LR of 3/54.....and ending in 53841 LR of August, 1985. Interestingly enough.... they DO follow rather consistent build quantities per year (this was NOT expected as you research serial numbers against build-date )...but they DO seem to follow roughly 1414 units per year of 22LR PP production, fairly consistently, without hi-or-low production years to alter the build-date findings. THIS one you show is obviously totally-German made at the original pre-war Zella-Mehlis plant...and shows a "P" suffix. So the question..... did all pre-war production of 22 cal Wather PP's show the "P" suffix?
Well, that was another fascinating show. I wonder what rifle the fellow who traded that to you got. A lesson for all, if you have found something you don’t know about, READ and educate yourself before getting rid of it. I picked up a gun I didn’t recognize for $25. I sold it for $250! Only problem is I found it was worth much more. Oh well, live and learn.
I notice also that the gun has the "later" style safety, where the red mark is not totally straight down at 90 degrees from horizontal ( as the earlier guns were), but instead is somewhat forward from straight down, so....less than 90 degrees down. So 1940's build date assumption seems correct, as I *think" this safety change occured around 1934.
Very cool! That has to be one valuable piece.
I just picked up a first production year s/n 1952 190xx France made Manurhin PP with the original box and 2 mags. You cover the pre war PP and PPK's but I don't see any post war coverage. It would be nice to get you expertise on the Manurhin produced Walthers. Prices on these models are more affordable however seem to be on a slow but steady rise as I've seen them go for $300 in 2014 and now average $600 - $1200.
Did the Germans ever make a Walther PP in 9mmP or was the largest caliber made was 9mm Kurtz?
Largest was 9mm Kurz
Great about collecting, always something new.
Very interesting story. Yet I’m CURIOUS...do you ever shoot any pieces in your collection?
I do. But I can sell up to 40 guns a day so I typically only shoot about 1% of my guns.
What is the proof mark on the gun?...is that a crown-over-N on the barrel shroud?.... an Eagle-over-N?........I can't make out the mark. A deep dig on proofs, and the style used....and which were used for which manufacturer....can help verify this gun's history ( military vs commercial build).... or build date, too. Should probably show up in 3 places....barrel shroud, slide and end-of-barrel ( once slide is pulled back to see).
Your pronunciation of Thüringen was quite perfect.. the umlaut ü is kind of hard i know
Hitler youth area 17 was Thüringen. There are maps about the areas on the internet, so it is without a doubt a hitler youth gun.
i think you're completely right.
I didn't explain it well but meant to say that there was a Hitler youth camp there where youth from all over Germany would come for summer camp. And would gets training on 22 caliber rifles and pistols
@@thomaswhiteman4261 Yes that's correct. The gun could've been very well for one of these camps. Here's an article in English on these HJ military training camps, also with overview of the HJ-areas, for anyone who's interested in the topic: www.axishistory.com/books/189-germany-political-organizations/youth/5058-hitlerjugend-wehrertuechtigungslagern-wel
Thank you!!
I have a Walther PP on the right side appears like the pistol in your video with two serial numbers on the right side mine do not match and on the left side of the pistol there is nothing it is blank and it has a magazine in it with a strange plastic bottom would appreciate any information
Mismatched parts gun, then, and/or very late war time production or gun made up by parts from the occupying forces...... the number on the frame and slide should match. If you take the slide off, the "inside" may even have hand-engraved last few digits shown.
@@TheWilferch I took it apart no numbers inside it's just an old pistol my uncle brought back during WW2 back in 44
@@djs3019 ...ok then...thanks for the update !!
great stuff love your vids tom
Just like the one I had sometime, but this mine was in .32 ...
Very good...Thanks once again...!
I do not know the time between 1933 and 1945, but today there are 17 districts in Thüringen. Coincidence ?
Hi, where can I purchase the original plastic grips and holster for the PP22lr? Thanks
There are many plastic grips available for PP....some brown, some black, some with thumbrests, some without. Some with/without Walther or Manurhin script. I have a thumbrest set if you need them. Look also on Ebay...you'd be surprised at what you find....also various Walther forums in their user for-sale sections.
Very good video, however Thüringen is not Alpine :) it is a nice region though.
While we're all learning German, Walther is actually pronounced 'Volter'.
There is no "o“ in Walther.. it is actually pronounced as it is written, try a fake posh/british accent for the "a" like in the word dance and you get there..
Educate us on stoeger Lugers please, specifically stainless models
Those are POST war Mauser made "replicas" . Stoeger has been out of business for many years. I dont collect anything post war. Sorry.
Legacy Collectibles :(
Did you know Kirby Iselt in Houston?
Very interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone can engrave a pistol anywhere. You of all people should know that!!
I DO know that. But the point of the video is to say "why would someone engrave a previously unknown marking with an unknown meaning? And then to find the consecutive numbered PP with the SAME unknown marking with unknown meaning. The odds of it being "faked" in my opinion is exactly ZERO.
So you’re selling that as a regular Walther PP price? Or is it rarer because you say it is?
@@LegacyCollectibles ...correct......
Quite little shorts..??????
My mother was in girls Hitler youth German League of Girls (Bund Deutscher Mädel) BDM in Breslau now Wroclaw Poland , she participated in the siege digging trenches for the fortification of the town against the Russians , she was captured by them and was on the last cattle car out of the east .
Vell dun !! 🍺 😎 👍
lol another walther pp
Uh ... no. It's a Walther PP, not a PPK.
Stolen in 1945.
Please return to rightful owner!
Not stolen.
Sorry, he's dead
Lmao yeah ok
Another great video.Thanks Tom