Anyone who knows cycling doubts nothing regarding illegal performance enhancement. Thats not the issue I have. The issue I have is the selective punishment and demonization of the guys who get caught/who are chosen to get caught. The ILLUSION that the sport is clean is what I dislike the most.
perfectly well put ike politics if 100% honesty was introduced the whole syste would collapse. George Carlin- cant claim that lol. Selective punishment and pay to play like futbol and all sports but maubly ones with international traelung, hosts, ownership, advertizing, propriety. Not a regional thing its a regional money thing likepolitics they dont have to buy the coaches, refs, they buy the events and from their it trickles down. Like Sep Bladder and all those before and after just got cretive painting the mess seven shades of s*it si theycan present it as a new idea. "Reformed" : ) im 43 I can only imagne people in 70s and above how insulted they must feeel recycliing the same od dtory and schemes
So much has changed in 20 years. Bikes are so much faster. Nutrition is so much better. Training is way more intensive. riders 1 through 13 beat the record. It's not all doping.
So you have one that broke the record with 5 weeks of grand tour climbing in his legs and the other who was seriously injured 3 months before the tour, makes you wonder....
“The last thing I’ll say for the people that don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics, I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big and I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles...” -Lance Armstrong (before he spoke to Oprah Winfrey, 2012)
i am surpised the climbing recods havent been broken before, like diets , training improvement , material, climbing culture changed full on gas from begin to top... they go on the verge of their fysiology. Doping? they re insane talents , just don't point at someone without evidence
its not all the latest doping science, thats only part of it, but its still the most significant part because if you gave anyone else a lighter bike that weighs below the UCI required weight of 15 lbs they likely still wouldnt be able to ride up the mtn as fast...
Well yeah, you shave a kilo off even a super light 60kg rider and they’re not going to be doing 7 W/kg unless they’re one of these guys. That’s not evidence of doping. It might be there, but the fact that no one could do it by riding a lighter bike isn’t the smoking gun!
Hats off to the scientists that made this all possible! 🎉 I thought they accomplished great things in the 90’s but they’ve worked wonders in this year’s Test Tubes de France 👏
@@keithb7444certainly… but HOW!? Pantani was on EPO and had high hematocrit values, whereas a level above 43% isn’t allowed today. How do you do it without all those extra red blood cells!?
@@peterfireflylund thats the million dollar questions, you and every other team wants to find out... but no one in their right mind says oh yeah its plausible a "natural" beats a doped up goat climber who weight 20-25 pounds less than pogacar... and i thought it was 50%
it was the perfect scenario with tadej leading so matteo pulled to empty jonas tried to grind tadej of wheel full gas and tadej attacked and tampo to the line thats the ingredients for a clibing record that willnot be touched maybe ever. Thats like pantani 1997 tour despite 95 being faster 97 man attacked at base and a mied team ITT until marcoi went alone. Thats how KOMs ares set at leastlong lasting ones. Jumbo changed their training or everyone else is doing same because down line because junbo was 100% on signings every rider not only had best form of career rouleurs turned into climbers benoot, laporte, van hoydonk, wout, tranik. Laporte had never won more than a single sprint for cofidis and did not manage the bunch well but no "killer bees" he was dropping cliimbers in alps. Kruiijswick was great in giro 2015 with landa and contador but his body chemistry change once primoz and team focused on GC was wild he had gigantic shoulders that nobody should climb with but he diid. Jumbo got his pysique more efficiient but uit was wout, benoot, laporte, vanhooydonk, van baarle,tratbik that really raised concerns as they would drop GC men while pulling up in dauphine. Kuss was always greatcliimber qand perfectmountain dom but lat 24 months his TT ability became a different level by a mile to point he beat jonas in vuelta on flat ITT. Had UAE or Sky/INEOS broke away with 3 to finish together on dauphine, niice, you name it questions would be rampant. Now this year entire team is off pace and jonas crash was terrifying everyone felt unerved by the stage 16 ITT that he will never duplicate and had never won a single UCI level ITT before. Gifted one and a fe seconds but not a thrashing of 3 minutes to wout who went out hard and Kung who number one priority is to win tour stage so much so he blew his engine going out to hot. Yetthat sectioin that Kung set fastest time eventua;ly killing his chance was beaten by a rider the size of pret-peintre a flat sectiion ...make iit make sense. Kung, Wout , Tadej wondt just win their natoina ITT they compete and medal for world IITT. Jonas has never even won nationals where skjelmose and asgreeen have cleaned up. Hes Lances favorite because he "pragmatically" if not "schrewdly" races on stages that dont uit him. He said thatgrael has no partin le tour depite gravel being the roadservice for longer than cement. I was wildly ecited by his taking up the attack on plateau de beille so early and it droped remco jonas is so strong that the way he races aknst feels like an insult because I get it hes ragmatic and prefers not to take risks. This was an attack that in order to win the race he could have easily blown up and lost 3rd to remco and for that he earned my repesct and guarentee you a tone of others. That takes stones and he did and amazing job because Mattei drove so hard from the foot, wiith no playing about, jonas was trying to grind tadej off, only to have tadej counter and ride full gas at tempoachieing a time that has to be one of greates clibing speeds and achievements ever and one that I doubt will ever be beaten. That was an ITT by 3 of the 5 fastetst/strongets climbers in race and 2 being a truly elite level if climbing relatiive to generation like herrera, pantani. Riis, VDB, Lance, Landis, vrienque, pantani, rominger berzin, ricco, you name to the doper they went on raids solo into resistance and never worked together. These young men with millions time better nutrition(dont care if you have a mclaren f1) without right fuel going nowhere. Better preparation they know where the slopes ramp up to get out of saddle and viceversa, theyhave yeammates whe possible for false flats connecting ramps iits a different world of team climbing now but more so you had a perfectstorm as perhaps only if kuss was there after matteo but then adam wouldnt have dropped and the shiffliing would have dsrupted. Thats the fastes weve ever seen cyclists climb and on a 40 min effort. As I said ive been watching for 35years and 2012 vuelta was cool contador, valverde, purito but this was history. Hope to see its likeness againi but totally acceptedthatI may never. Cheers, chapeau, allez allez allez,Froza,Grinta, vamos, forcaaa,
I can't believe it either... Also: "miracles" don't exist in the world of physics and biochemistry... Another fun fact: training sciences are near perfect since the 90's. That means, records should not be broken anymore, as we already know how to train people to perfect performance. Just saying.
@@stephenm4830 Where do you have that data from? And if so at what points were it tail wind. When I saw them ride I saw flags etc going towards the riders.
@@epincion bro he was literally faster than pantani on this climb (and pantani was on full blast)... i mean ofc the bikes are better and the sience is much further but still this seems fishi
Also screaming doping at any outlying performance is quite idiotic, competition is about winning and the winner will usually be a lot stronger than the average of the rest. These athletes are the end of the bell curve the top of the top and that happens in every single domain. Hell, every single pro in this peloton once won by such a huge margin against lesser competitors. Making doping accusations every time someone wins shows a lack of understanding of reality.
To all the those sceptics and haters…. Who cares!!!! Just enjoy it, it’s amazing. Jonas’s TT last year? Pogis climb this year! They are amazing athletes, and are great sportsmen. Let’s just enjoy the show.
@@FedericoG-p3w I mean it’s hard right. If you say 1 is cheating then number 2 is probably cheating and then 3, 4….20 and if the slowest in the peleton is cheating then those just outside it is probably cheating, and in the end everyone who rides a bike and tries to go fast is cheating. So you have to draw a line somewhere, Pogi here went significantly faster than number two who claims he did his personal highest numbers ever in his career. And he did so while looking like he didnt struggle. So i dont think it’s bizarre to put the line after that 1 rider who is just significantly better than everyone else. But i can also see the argument for saying top 3 seems above the rest. In the end though, where is the evidence? Where is the numbers that look odd? Until we have a reason, then where we put the line and if we put it is pure speculation. However stating, that putting the line after the one rider who are miles better than the rest is just silly.
Interresting, that tyou all talk about two guys. Pogačar is MUCH stronger than Jonas. He dropped him by a MINUTE!! Talk about ONE man one king - Pogačar!
Anyone who knows cycling doubts nothing regarding illegal performance enhancement. Thats not the issue I have. The issue I have is the selective punishment and demonization of the guys who get caught/who are chosen to get caught. The ILLUSION that the sport is clean is what I dislike the most.
Good point.
Many of the dubious ex-pros from the Armstrong generation are now in team management positions. I seriously doubt they have found religion.
perfectly well put ike politics if 100% honesty was introduced the whole syste would collapse. George Carlin- cant claim that lol. Selective punishment and pay to play like futbol and all sports but maubly ones with international traelung, hosts, ownership, advertizing, propriety. Not a regional thing its a regional money thing likepolitics they dont have to buy the coaches, refs, they buy the events and from their it trickles down. Like Sep Bladder and all those before and after just got cretive painting the mess seven shades of s*it si theycan present it as a new idea. "Reformed" : ) im 43 I can only imagne people in 70s and above how insulted they must feeel recycliing the same od dtory and schemes
Didn’t they catch a jumbo domestique last year? But sure he must have bought those pills by his lonesome in the off-season 😂
@@johnkirk1772yes the Catched one of Team Visma and it was not even a top Driver of the Team.
Yeah, nobody else who has any common sense can believe it either... Ridiculous.
7 minutes faster than Lance Armstrong. I love that. LOVE that.
"marginal gains"
Time to restore some titles
@@mikekelley7240 never for a-hole Lance
So much has changed in 20 years.
Bikes are so much faster.
Nutrition is so much better.
Training is way more intensive.
riders 1 through 13 beat the record.
It's not all doping.
@@stevejacobsen3006tu crois au père noel?
Wow "clean" riders beating climbing records of the likes of Lance and Marco. Hmmmmm 🤔
You're very new to cycling, kiddo
9 minutes from not making the time limit :O
So you have one that broke the record with 5 weeks of grand tour climbing in his legs and the other who was seriously injured 3 months before the tour, makes you wonder....
“The last thing I’ll say for the people that don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics, I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big and I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles...”
-Lance Armstrong (before he spoke to Oprah Winfrey, 2012)
That quote was from 2005 on the podium after winning the Tour de France. Not before Oprah.
@@audrichvuneo181 2005 was definitely before 2012
@@danielbigott what would we do without your brilliance
@@audrichvuneo181 Can't you just say my bad, I missread the first answer, rather than trying to be a smartass.
@@jorisoims3085 the person’s response to me was being a smartass
i am surpised the climbing recods havent been broken before, like diets , training improvement , material, climbing culture changed full on gas from begin to top... they go on the verge of their fysiology. Doping? they re insane talents , just don't point at someone without evidence
2024's e-bikes are more powerful than Armstrong's one, I guess.
Come on Wout get our Dane over the line .
the team needs you bigtime wout, your better than this. come on help jonas and show us what you got.
its not all the latest doping science, thats only part of it, but its still the most significant part because if you gave anyone else a lighter bike that weighs below the UCI required weight of 15 lbs they likely still wouldnt be able to ride up the mtn as fast...
Well yeah, you shave a kilo off even a super light 60kg rider and they’re not going to be doing 7 W/kg unless they’re one of these guys.
That’s not evidence of doping. It might be there, but the fact that no one could do it by riding a lighter bike isn’t the smoking gun!
Hats off to the scientists that made this all possible! 🎉 I thought they accomplished great things in the 90’s but they’ve worked wonders in this year’s Test Tubes de France 👏
Tadej was FLYING! 🚀
Motor in the bike. Uae paid off officials.
Pog and Jonas beating the climbing records from the drug use of the 1980,1990 times....I always knew that EPO was overhyped 😅😅😅😅
Remco was also faster
All the top three finishers broke Pantani's record. Perfect weather conditions were a factor.
and massive doping
there was not perfect conditions at all. It was head wind and warm. Not very warm but still warmer than ideal.
@@keithb7444 Agree. My weather comment was sarcasm.
@@keithb7444certainly… but HOW!? Pantani was on EPO and had high hematocrit values, whereas a level above 43% isn’t allowed today. How do you do it without all those extra red blood cells!?
@@peterfireflylund thats the million dollar questions, you and every other team wants to find out... but no one in their right mind says oh yeah its plausible a "natural" beats a doped up goat climber who weight 20-25 pounds less than pogacar... and i thought it was 50%
it was the perfect scenario with tadej leading so matteo pulled to empty jonas tried to grind tadej of wheel full gas and tadej attacked and tampo to the line thats the ingredients for a clibing record that willnot be touched maybe ever. Thats like pantani 1997 tour despite 95 being faster 97 man attacked at base and a mied team ITT until marcoi went alone. Thats how KOMs ares set at leastlong lasting ones. Jumbo changed their training or everyone else is doing same because down line because junbo was 100% on signings every rider not only had best form of career rouleurs turned into climbers benoot, laporte, van hoydonk, wout, tranik. Laporte had never won more than a single sprint for cofidis and did not manage the bunch well but no "killer bees" he was dropping cliimbers in alps. Kruiijswick was great in giro 2015 with landa and contador but his body chemistry change once primoz and team focused on GC was wild he had gigantic shoulders that nobody should climb with but he diid. Jumbo got his pysique more efficiient but uit was wout, benoot, laporte, vanhooydonk, van baarle,tratbik that really raised concerns as they would drop GC men while pulling up in dauphine. Kuss was always greatcliimber qand perfectmountain dom but lat 24 months his TT ability became a different level by a mile to point he beat jonas in vuelta on flat ITT. Had UAE or Sky/INEOS broke away with 3 to finish together on dauphine, niice, you name it questions would be rampant.
Now this year entire team is off pace and jonas crash was terrifying everyone felt unerved by the stage 16 ITT that he will never duplicate and had never won a single UCI level ITT before. Gifted one and a fe seconds but not a thrashing of 3 minutes to wout who went out hard and Kung who number one priority is to win tour stage so much so he blew his engine going out to hot. Yetthat sectioin that Kung set fastest time eventua;ly killing his chance was beaten by a rider the size of pret-peintre a flat sectiion ...make iit make sense. Kung, Wout , Tadej wondt just win their natoina ITT they compete and medal for world IITT. Jonas has never even won nationals where skjelmose and asgreeen have cleaned up. Hes Lances favorite because he "pragmatically" if not "schrewdly" races on stages that dont uit him. He said thatgrael has no partin le tour depite gravel being the roadservice for longer than cement.
I was wildly ecited by his taking up the attack on plateau de beille so early and it droped remco jonas is so strong that the way he races aknst feels like an insult because I get it hes ragmatic and prefers not to take risks. This was an attack that in order to win the race he could have easily blown up and lost 3rd to remco and for that he earned my repesct and guarentee you a tone of others. That takes stones and he did and amazing job because Mattei drove so hard from the foot, wiith no playing about, jonas was trying to grind tadej off, only to have tadej counter and ride full gas at tempoachieing a time that has to be one of greates clibing speeds and achievements ever and one that I doubt will ever be beaten. That was an ITT by 3 of the 5 fastetst/strongets climbers in race and 2 being a truly elite level if climbing relatiive to generation like herrera, pantani.
Riis, VDB, Lance, Landis, vrienque, pantani, rominger berzin, ricco, you name to the doper they went on raids solo into resistance and never worked together. These young men with millions time better nutrition(dont care if you have a mclaren f1) without right fuel going nowhere. Better preparation they know where the slopes ramp up to get out of saddle and viceversa, theyhave yeammates whe possible for false flats connecting ramps iits a different world of team climbing now but more so you had a perfectstorm as perhaps only if kuss was there after matteo but then adam wouldnt have dropped and the shiffliing would have dsrupted. Thats the fastes weve ever seen cyclists climb and on a 40 min effort. As I said ive been watching for 35years and 2012 vuelta was cool contador, valverde, purito but this was history. Hope to see its likeness againi but totally acceptedthatI may never. Cheers, chapeau, allez allez allez,Froza,Grinta, vamos, forcaaa,
juiced
No comment ..
I can't believe it either...
Also: "miracles" don't exist in the world of physics and biochemistry...
Another fun fact: training sciences are near perfect since the 90's. That means, records should not be broken anymore, as we already know how to train people to perfect performance.
Just saying.
Tour de Dope. Love it.
this is what better nutrition and equipment and great competition can do. Amazing effort.
Was the wind advantageous?
it was head wind on the mountain.
if the numbers are from power meters then it wouldn't matter.
@@TellusJDit was prevailing tailwind, LR’s article is wrong
It was an upwind.
@@stephenm4830 Where do you have that
data from? And if so at what points were it tail wind. When I saw them ride I saw flags etc going towards the riders.
PED’s can do that Wout! You should know?!🎉🎉🎉
At some point the sports media needs to start talking doping again. It's not as clean as they promote it to be.
Any evidence or is it what you think?
@@epincion Its imagination thinking it ever was clean...
@@epincion any evidence that the pros are clean?
@@epincion bro he was literally faster than pantani on this climb (and pantani was on full blast)... i mean ofc the bikes are better and the sience is much further but still this seems fishi
Also screaming doping at any outlying performance is quite idiotic, competition is about winning and the winner will usually be a lot stronger than the average of the rest. These athletes are the end of the bell curve the top of the top and that happens in every single domain.
Hell, every single pro in this peloton once won by such a huge margin against lesser competitors.
Making doping accusations every time someone wins shows a lack of understanding of reality.
To all the those sceptics and haters….
Who cares!!!! Just enjoy it, it’s amazing.
Jonas’s TT last year? Pogis climb this year!
They are amazing athletes, and are great sportsmen. Let’s just enjoy the show.
He sounds like he has Covid!
That or RSV.
Allergies more likely, although most teams are not announcing what riders have Covid to the media so might be right.
@@user-ch9if6px6rhe doesn’t have RSV dude. Healthy athletes don’t get RSV.
@@dylanauker4031 Do you even know what RSV is?
He needs to change teams. One which is dedicated to him.
smh
Astana suits him
@@Bgdutch77 you mean china numba 1 - xds carbon tech
Kuss has cost vingegaard approx 60 sec
you are wrong
So you're blaming a guy that isn't even in the race?
@@larrywatkins8216 0
The Tour is going on? Oh on Peacock. No wonder Im not watching.
chances professional cycling is clean? lmao
Better drugs than epo etc etc 😂
et oui les drogués sont de plus en plus fort.
4 minutes quicker than Pantani.
Pog climbed the last 3km 10%+ at 24km/h.
I don’t but it.
Dont buy Pog but you buy Jonas?
anquetil said it best "only a fool believes one can ride from bordeaux to paris on just water". cycling is a cursed profession.
@@FedericoG-p3w I mean it’s hard right.
If you say 1 is cheating then number 2 is probably cheating and then 3, 4….20 and if the slowest in the peleton is cheating then those just outside it is probably cheating, and in the end everyone who rides a bike and tries to go fast is cheating.
So you have to draw a line somewhere, Pogi here went significantly faster than number two who claims he did his personal highest numbers ever in his career. And he did so while looking like he didnt struggle.
So i dont think it’s bizarre to put the line after that 1 rider who is just significantly better than everyone else.
But i can also see the argument for saying top 3 seems above the rest.
In the end though, where is the evidence? Where is the numbers that look odd? Until we have a reason, then where we put the line and if we put it is pure speculation.
However stating, that putting the line after the one rider who are miles better than the rest is just silly.
This is a guy Vingegard rode away from last year in the Tour...
💉🩸💊🧪🧬
💉🩸💊🧪🧬 😡
Interresting, that tyou all talk about two guys. Pogačar is MUCH stronger than Jonas. He dropped him by a MINUTE!! Talk about ONE man one king - Pogačar!
Jonas was in the ICU for 12 days. See you next year.
First?
No, Wout is normally second
@@sgcravas You are that dense?