Right, with you! Marco’s channel is a classic example of how expertise, presentation skills and humour can create entertainment that is off the scale of common measurement technology 😎 Thank you Marco - you are way more unique than the gear you work on!
Wooohoo, new ppm reps video :) I have fixed two of these 8508As with older boards and both had issues with ohm board and high voltage section. Yes! Awesome to see some proper INL charts instead of grafana craze :) Reps, gate arrays on 8508A are custom and not off the shelf. And their failure did happen to others, especially on ACV board.
Glad to see I'm not the only one employing my snaz to sniff out defects. People always laugh at me when I start literally sniffing around inside something they bring me for repair, but they don't seem to get that you not only can actually sniff out a burnt component, if you're experienced in doing it, you often also identify which type of component released its magic smoke. There's a difference in smell even between surface mount and pin through capacitors.
I loved this video! I only understood about four or five of every ten words you said. Not because of your English, your English is excellent. But because while I'm an electronics hobbyist, you are a maestro. Great video!
Didn't understand a lot of the words you said but I still enjoyed this video a lot. There's just something about electronics that I can't get enough of
Its the fact that electronics are essentially the root of all scientific revelations combined. As you keep going down the atomic scale... it all seems to make more sense in a bigger picture the more you learn how things work, specifically electronics they seem to do everything and touch on all things its amazing!
@13:10 I bought a Vivitar Light Deck to chase traces. It has a very bright light, a 6.5 x 7.5 inch lens, changes colors, and you can link it to your phone. And it's cheap. I cut a piece of diffuser from an old tv to fit the lens. The whole thing is used as a base for my digital scope. It is perfect for shining through pc boards. The best part is it changes colors. Pc boards come in different colors. I have found out there are certain colors of light that make it easier to see through certain color pc boards. For instance, a yellow or blue colored light allows you to see through a green board way better than regular white light. I use green light for red pc boards, orange light for blue boards. It is almost cheating, it's like you have X-ray vision. Everything is clearer and much easier to see than with regular white light. Even the multi-layer boards I have worked on, the light shines right through. Of course, it won't shine through a ground plane.
@@reps I got part of the idea from sport-shooting glasses, usually yellow or orange tint. They help me see with better contrast and clarity. Real crisp and sharp outlines because certain colors are filtered out. The other part of the idea came from dentists who use orange tinted glasses for LED and laser treatments. The orange color filters out the blue light that is harmful to naked eyes, but still allow him to work. Ergo, use an orange light to better help see through a blue translucent material. And thanks for your reply and you are very welcome.
"You call that a moldymeter? THIS... is a moldymeter." An impressive piece of gear, absolutely a thing of beauty and a joy for ever. Proper respect for reverse-engineering and fixing this thing!
Here I was thinking this would be like my “nightmare”-level Fluke 8505A. But no, a different nightmare. I think yours is a better one :-) Thanks for uploading, love your obsession with perfection.
You have an envious collection of measurement instruments. I used to work in a calibration lab that supplied services to the military and loved using this type of equipment. I trust your lab has environmental controls in place :)
Soldering flux in the ear is definitely worse than ear wax on the PCB. Had to explain to a company nurse once how I blistered my right ear canal with a soldering iron. Hazard of working in very confined space requiring awkward positions. Avionics technician in general aviation manufacturing production flight test at the time.
i took on a challenge of making an all analog circuit for one of my first ever devices, meant to teach myself and make a useful device. made a dual sensor automatic LED light. given i didnt know what i was doing when i started... it really didnt help that it was analog and that i didnt know how to separate multiple electrical loops/circuits on one device. but i do like analog stuff! cant believe these guys did it on such a big time device
I am not an electrical engineer by a long shot, but I always learn somthing new from these videos! Maybe I should get into building/repairing simple circuits.
it's 4AM I should go to bed... Oh what's this? Marco released a video? What's another half hour on top of my 3 month sleep debt? At this rate, that's lost in the noise.
Greetings from the Norwich site... Pronunciation hint from a local lad. Our city's name is pronounced Nor-rich, the w is silent. I'm fortunate enough to have a 8588A as a daily driver at the Norwich site. Well, as I repair them, and they are made on site, it would be rude not to. More than that, as you must understand, I am not allowed to divulge. Interesting to see your fault finding process. I have yet to operate on an 8508, but some of my colleagues do. At home I have a couple of Datrons, one 1065 and one 1061A. You're right, you can never have too many bench multimeters.
Norwich, England is pronounced as you say. FYI: The towns in Connecticut and Vermont that are named for it defend their W. (The one in Connecticut is on the River Thames - which is pronounced as it's spelt, believe it or not!)
Some years ago, Marco did some "cleaning" with IPA, "I'll just use some IPA" [removes needed stuff] "OOPS!" Couple with that beautiful German accent and deep voice, I laughed like a crazy man until I nearly threw up. What a guy! It annoys me when I see some of these repair channels, and no I'm not telling, that are enthusiastic amateurs but have no real expertise. Worse when they go diving into mains powered equipment without proper protection OR warnings to viewer on the dangers of high voltage. Really micturates on my cornflakes. I'd love to know how old Marco is and his qualifications. I've never seen anyone on YT with his level of knowledge or expertise. Great Scott is pretty good too. It's like these guys have Ph.Ds in the skill.
I had to check to be sure. I still have a fully functional 8505A, I presume it is a predecessor to the 8508A. I bought it second hand about 20 years ago. I don't use it very often, I tend to use my 8840 or my 77 handheld mostly, but it is a great fallback if I need higher accuracy
If you can tolerate a bit more input offset (or maybe an order of magnitude), the OPA192 family are e-trim parts (no zero-drift stuff) with +/-5uV typical offset, +/-50uV worst case from 0-85C. It can also take up to 36V between the rails, might be a good option for high source impedances in these kinds of projects!
This is some wild electronic engineering above my head! To me these circuits always work in math, love the circuit simulator used just to understand values.
didn't expect to see a discrete gilbert cell in this; i'm literary working on making a linear one myself; i'm not going to look at this part in the clip, as i don't want any spoilers; it's great fun trying to make it linear; the initial form only works with voltage swings lower than vt, so it's difficult to use in practice; one of the few books where i could find useful information is Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits, 5th Edition
It still fascinates me how big a measuring instrument can be, and still how accurate it CAN be even though some of them are more than 20-30 yrs old and still be reasonably accurate down to mV or nV
Analog design sure is something else. I truly believe people came up up with digital becuse it is much analog is much more difficult to master, but it is superior in many aspects.
Thanks for all your amazing videos. Would there be any chance you could take photos of your JBC tweezers stand board? I have the HT420 tweezers but not the stand. Trying to reverse engineer the little PCB board inside. Appears to have two diodes and resistors. I've got a recent post on eevblog asking for help here
When we do complicated repairs, working with flir camera is def one of the first methods, however, sometimes just going through component by component is actually faster in the long run. Normally you'll start with diode testing, but resistors can be tricky, specially when in parallell with other resistive elements. Much time is saved by just lifting one component at a time and measuring. Boring yes. Effective yes. Good work though, however, there might be some resistors "half broken" or out of spec somewhere that are missed............
Mate, this is way above my head but I´d like to ask: how would You go about copying a one sided board? I fiddle around with an old Radford amplifier and a lot of traces came loose when introduced to heat after 50 years so I´d like to just copy the existing design. You work a lot with PcbWay- can I simply put the boards on a scanner and send them the scan to repoduce? Kind Regards
I believe KiCAD has tools for placing images, vectorizing them and transforming them into copper. If you get the scale perfect, it should work that way. Redrawing everything would of course be neater
I feel like Marco would be very happy if there was an open source CPU replacement for some of these meters, or at least some way to mod the existing firmware. Some of the missing features would be easy to code up in software.
I designed a custom 10000:1 voltage divider for a project, rated up to 40kV dc. I made a point of including a GDT and two ground terminals so cal labs had no excuse if fritzing their kit with excess CMV. My boss killed a Datron that way. It is hard to find cal labs who go that high with any precision.
About the GPIB connector: I know many scientists, including myself, who actually prefer these to modern interfaces like USB or even Ethernet. Ethernet is not so simple to use in a production environment with tight network security, and USB has the disadvantage that it needs drivers to work. So I usually buy high end instruments with GPIB or RS232, and then use adapters to interface with modern PCs. Might seem ugly, but it is a lot simpler if you have lots of instruments that require different versions of Labview drivers to interface a simple USB port.
@@alakaniSome IT security people in prod environments don't like any network ports they can't manage. I had an issue with getting approval for AV equipment that used a layer 2 Ethernet audio transfer protocol that was only ever meant to/capable of connecting to other audio devices. They still wanted to switch it/admin it.
If sent to the manufacturer for repair, you can bet that they would have said it's unrepairable. HP is bad for it, too, because they want to sell new equipment. Great job on the repair!
Why is everybody so afraid of back EMF from relay coils? I tested a 1kg 10kW contactor AEG with 24 VDC coil. I let a 2N2222 drive the coil. No back EMF circuit. No problem. The LM 324 has a slow output slew rate 0.5V/us minimizing HF interference, and it is cheap.
Would you be able to share which solder wire you are using? I have used some Felder solder wire in the past but I wanted to check exactly which alloy you like to use.
My daily driver for quick&dirty, unimportant, digital stuff is currently Felder Sn100Ni+, very similar behavior to leaded alloys. For repairs that matter, like this, traditional 60/40 with rosin flux core
@@reps Thanks for the reply Marco. I thought that the solder you used in this video flowed very nicely so I am not surprised to hear it was good old 60/40. Cheers.
40 minutes of dense electronics knowledge about devices that I will never own or have a use for? Love it!!
Right, with you! Marco’s channel is a classic example of how expertise, presentation skills and humour can create entertainment that is off the scale of common measurement technology 😎
Thank you Marco - you are way more unique than the gear you work on!
The "Ach ne, guck mal an" was unexpected
😂
06:55
Caught me off guard also
Liebe grüße 🫶🏻
but nice and made me lough :) Also the Cartoon with the two birds shouting about the voltage measured at about 10:20 was nice detail that I love
guck ma hier ham wa noch ne schöne glühbirne
There is so much comedy in these videos, just love it
Exactly, education with humor is the best way to learn. At least for me. 😅
He's a good teacher! Love this bloke!
"Oh, hello, two hotties in my neighborhood"😂😂
This kind of content is why I keep paying for youtube premium, never forget what YT Shorts and Tiktok are trying to kill
Sure Marco!!! Drop this the moment I'm sitting down to dinner with my German wife on Sunday!!! Have you no idea how torn I am at the moment....
time to watch reps repair a multimeter together
She is German, and will understand.
Marco is your German wife now
@@logitech4873 😂
Sorry to hear about the German wife. Better luck next time!
It’s my birthday and you uploaded! Thanks for the thoughtful gift German ppm god!
🎂🎉
@@reps thank you.. you're so kind!
@@reps try to buy the most most sensitive sensitive multimeter thats available
Wooohoo, new ppm reps video :) I have fixed two of these 8508As with older boards and both had issues with ohm board and high voltage section. Yes! Awesome to see some proper INL charts instead of grafana craze :) Reps, gate arrays on 8508A are custom and not off the shelf. And their failure did happen to others, especially on ACV board.
Glad to see I'm not the only one employing my snaz to sniff out defects.
People always laugh at me when I start literally sniffing around inside something they bring me for repair, but they don't seem to get that you not only can actually sniff out a burnt component, if you're experienced in doing it, you often also identify which type of component released its magic smoke.
There's a difference in smell even between surface mount and pin through capacitors.
I loved this video! I only understood about four or five of every ten words you said. Not because of your English, your English is excellent. But because while I'm an electronics hobbyist, you are a maestro. Great video!
2 hotties in your neighbourhood ... I can't anymore 🤣
THE CLASSICAL CONTENT, THE PPMS
Didn't understand a lot of the words you said but I still enjoyed this video a lot. There's just something about electronics that I can't get enough of
Its the fact that electronics are essentially the root of all scientific revelations combined. As you keep going down the atomic scale... it all seems to make more sense in a bigger picture the more you learn how things work, specifically electronics they seem to do everything and touch on all things its amazing!
@13:10 I bought a Vivitar Light Deck to chase traces. It has a very bright light, a 6.5 x 7.5 inch lens, changes colors, and you can link it to your phone. And it's cheap.
I cut a piece of diffuser from an old tv to fit the lens. The whole thing is used as a base for my digital scope.
It is perfect for shining through pc boards.
The best part is it changes colors. Pc boards come in different colors. I have found out there are certain colors of light that make it easier to see through certain color pc boards. For instance, a yellow or blue colored light allows you to see through a green board way better than regular white light. I use green light for red pc boards, orange light for blue boards.
It is almost cheating, it's like you have X-ray vision. Everything is clearer and much easier to see than with regular white light.
Even the multi-layer boards I have worked on, the light shines right through.
Of course, it won't shine through a ground plane.
interesting thank you! 🛒
@@reps I got part of the idea from sport-shooting glasses, usually yellow or orange tint. They help me see with better contrast and clarity. Real crisp and sharp outlines because certain colors are filtered out.
The other part of the idea came from dentists who use orange tinted glasses for LED and laser treatments. The orange color filters out the blue light that is harmful to naked eyes, but still allow him to work.
Ergo, use an orange light to better help see through a blue translucent material.
And thanks for your reply and you are very welcome.
3:34 I had the video in miniplayer on my phone and I thought for a full 30 seconds that those were bagels you put in there as a joke.
oh my god new marco reps video, and another multimeter repair video????
❤❤❤❤❤
Today is a good day for metrology. 🥰
Props to you for your persistence in fixing this.
"You call that a moldymeter? THIS... is a moldymeter."
An impressive piece of gear, absolutely a thing of beauty and a joy for ever. Proper respect for reverse-engineering and fixing this thing!
The brilliance and geek entertainment value of Marco's videos is immeasurable! Words fail me. Bravo!
Here I was thinking this would be like my “nightmare”-level Fluke 8505A. But no, a different nightmare. I think yours is a better one :-) Thanks for uploading, love your obsession with perfection.
You have an envious collection of measurement instruments. I used to work in a calibration lab that supplied services to the military and loved using this type of equipment. I trust your lab has environmental controls in place :)
I have always found warm solder flux to be helpful in dissolving stubborn earwax.
OK, but what about cooperative earwax? 🤪
Soldering flux in the ear is definitely worse than ear wax on the PCB. Had to explain to a company nurse once how I blistered my right ear canal with a soldering iron. Hazard of working in very confined space requiring awkward positions. Avionics technician in general aviation manufacturing production flight test at the time.
what? normal healthy number of mulimeters what would YT be without this channel
i took on a challenge of making an all analog circuit for one of my first ever devices, meant to teach myself and make a useful device. made a dual sensor automatic LED light. given i didnt know what i was doing when i started... it really didnt help that it was analog and that i didnt know how to separate multiple electrical loops/circuits on one device. but i do like analog stuff! cant believe these guys did it on such a big time device
I am not an electrical engineer by a long shot, but I always learn somthing new from these videos! Maybe I should get into building/repairing simple circuits.
it's 4AM I should go to bed... Oh what's this? Marco released a video? What's another half hour on top of my 3 month sleep debt? At this rate, that's lost in the noise.
Same here, but only 2:11, wife has given up waiting and fallen asleep
Greetings from the Norwich site... Pronunciation hint from a local lad. Our city's name is pronounced Nor-rich, the w is silent.
I'm fortunate enough to have a 8588A as a daily driver at the Norwich site. Well, as I repair them, and they are made on site, it would be rude not to. More than that, as you must understand, I am not allowed to divulge.
Interesting to see your fault finding process. I have yet to operate on an 8508, but some of my colleagues do.
At home I have a couple of Datrons, one 1065 and one 1061A. You're right, you can never have too many bench multimeters.
Norwich, England is pronounced as you say. FYI: The towns in Connecticut and Vermont that are named for it defend their W. (The one in Connecticut is on the River Thames - which is pronounced as it's spelt, believe it or not!)
Let me know if there is ever an unfixable box heading into your dumpsters, it's only a 12 hour car ride from me 😁
Love the combination of humor and precision analog circuit analysis!
This is pure advanced Electronic Repair Video really intimidating
I've never thought i would see dota 2 content on this channel
Omg you have the patience of the whole universe
It's so nice to see a new video. So few anymore. 😢
You should patent the -8.9K ohm resistor.
I just love the hum in the background of all those devices.
Ah yes, 43 min from my favorite German without understanding half of what he’s talking about 🥰
You talking about high device temperatures while filming in a Dachgeschosswohnung made me chuckle
Some years ago, Marco did some "cleaning" with IPA, "I'll just use some IPA" [removes needed stuff] "OOPS!"
Couple with that beautiful German accent and deep voice, I laughed like a crazy man until I nearly threw up.
What a guy! It annoys me when I see some of these repair channels, and no I'm not telling, that are enthusiastic amateurs but have no real expertise. Worse when they go diving into mains powered equipment without proper protection OR warnings to viewer on the dangers of high voltage. Really micturates on my cornflakes.
I'd love to know how old Marco is and his qualifications. I've never seen anyone on YT with his level of knowledge or expertise. Great Scott is pretty good too. It's like these guys have Ph.Ds in the skill.
man every video you make is worth the wait!
I had to check to be sure. I still have a fully functional 8505A, I presume it is a predecessor to the 8508A. I bought it second hand about 20 years ago. I don't use it very often, I tend to use my 8840 or my 77 handheld mostly, but it is a great fallback if I need higher accuracy
If you can tolerate a bit more input offset (or maybe an order of magnitude), the OPA192 family are e-trim parts (no zero-drift stuff) with +/-5uV typical offset, +/-50uV worst case from 0-85C. It can also take up to 36V between the rails, might be a good option for high source impedances in these kinds of projects!
Note about warranty seals, lockpickinglawyer has a video on those. (90% of stickers, even holographic ones can be taken off and put back.)
I enjoyed this one :P very nice work Marco!
gotta love the question mark, never gets old
This is some wild electronic engineering above my head! To me these circuits always work in math, love the circuit simulator used just to understand values.
didn't expect to see a discrete gilbert cell in this; i'm literary working on making a linear one myself; i'm not going to look at this part in the clip, as i don't want any spoilers; it's great fun trying to make it linear; the initial form only works with voltage swings lower than vt, so it's difficult to use in practice; one of the few books where i could find useful information is Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits, 5th Edition
took a class called Advanced German and all they did was show this guy's videos
It still fascinates me how big a measuring instrument can be, and still how accurate it CAN be even though some of them are more than 20-30 yrs old and still be reasonably accurate down to mV or nV
Awesome as always Marco, vielen dank 🙏🏾
OK, you made me smile on the OCD line... great job!
Analog design sure is something else. I truly believe people came up up with digital becuse it is much analog is much more difficult to master, but it is superior in many aspects.
I understand like 1% of what Marco says which is just enough to make myself feel clever like once a video, which keeps me hooked 😂 (1% is optimistic)
Truly that was major surgery on that fluke, tks for Sharing, 🎩
Crazy German guy, love these videos.
Day just got a lot better ❤😊
YOU'RE STILL ONE SHARP TECH !!!
So much Geduld! !
Greetings from GP
Your scope is beautiful.
Finally, a new video. I love your content
Just what I needed today! Yay!
instant. thumbs. up. no thinking.
@4:58 with a 20A range one might be tempted to use that for general mains work
So in the end there wasn't any obvious reason for the diode failure... it was just an unfortunate fluke
I always did enjoy vacuum desoldering iron, so convenient
Uncle H would approve of the old vref layout at 4:34
Great video!
Thanks for all your amazing videos. Would there be any chance you could take photos of your JBC tweezers stand board? I have the HT420 tweezers but not the stand. Trying to reverse engineer the little PCB board inside. Appears to have two diodes and resistors. I've got a recent post on eevblog asking for help here
30:58 is that an Aderendhülse used as the tip of the probe?
Nice Fluke Camera. New Thermalcamera meta video in the works?
When we do complicated repairs, working with flir camera is def one of the first methods, however, sometimes just going through component by component is actually faster in the long run. Normally you'll start with diode testing, but resistors can be tricky, specially when in parallell with other resistive elements. Much time is saved by just lifting one component at a time and measuring. Boring yes. Effective yes. Good work though, however, there might be some resistors "half broken" or out of spec somewhere that are missed............
ach nee, gugg mal ! .... this is international and understands everybody 🙂 Danke für Vidoe 🙂🙂
Mate, this is way above my head but I´d like to ask: how would You go about copying a one sided board? I fiddle around with an old Radford amplifier and a lot of traces came loose when introduced to heat after 50 years so I´d like to just copy the existing design.
You work a lot with PcbWay- can I simply put the boards on a scanner and send them the scan to repoduce? Kind Regards
I believe KiCAD has tools for placing images, vectorizing them and transforming them into copper. If you get the scale perfect, it should work that way. Redrawing everything would of course be neater
17:29 what simulation software is this please tell me Marco…
That looked like a hair-tearing good time. Good work, my friend.
I feel like Marco would be very happy if there was an open source CPU replacement for some of these meters, or at least some way to mod the existing firmware. Some of the missing features would be easy to code up in software.
I’ve never had solder flow as freely as when doped with 0.02% earwax. Just use 60/40 in the ears regularly and keep the tips in a solder cup.
I designed a custom 10000:1 voltage divider for a project, rated up to 40kV dc. I made a point of including a GDT and two ground terminals so cal labs had no excuse if fritzing their kit with excess CMV. My boss killed a Datron that way.
It is hard to find cal labs who go that high with any precision.
Ohhh Hellooo, 2 hotties in my neighborhood. That made me laugh out loud, i dont do that a ton in my old grumpy state.
Holy shh111t, a new video, is it christmas already?
Sunday, prime time, and Marco pops out a new video. Lovely!
Do you have a favorite soldering tip for your JBC? (is it a CD-2BQF station?)
C245-774 seems to be my most discolored one, so I must be using that the most
Best Dracula repair ever!
About the GPIB connector: I know many scientists, including myself, who actually prefer these to modern interfaces like USB or even Ethernet. Ethernet is not so simple to use in a production environment with tight network security, and USB has the disadvantage that it needs drivers to work.
So I usually buy high end instruments with GPIB or RS232, and then use adapters to interface with modern PCs. Might seem ugly, but it is a lot simpler if you have lots of instruments that require different versions of Labview drivers to interface a simple USB port.
Also more pins equals better data
Why are you trying to put test equipment on the internet? Get separate ethernet switch for the bench
@@consumeobama5770Huh? What makes you think that?
@@alakaniSome IT security people in prod environments don't like any network ports they can't manage.
I had an issue with getting approval for AV equipment that used a layer 2 Ethernet audio transfer protocol that was only ever meant to/capable of connecting to other audio devices. They still wanted to switch it/admin it.
23:35 this on its own is worth a standalone video for deepdive
Not gonna lie, you had me between 6:48 and 14:42 .
If Marco says he is overwhelmed, that is truly terrifying
Rep rep 💪🏼
I HAVE 2. PACE PPS80 WORK STATIONS! I LIKE THEM A LOT !! THEY ARE OLDER BUT GOOD!
If sent to the manufacturer for repair, you can bet that they would have said it's unrepairable. HP is bad for it, too, because they want to sell new equipment. Great job on the repair!
nope, Keysight repaired my 1985 made HP 3458A, replaced ADC board, AC board, repaired processor board, you’re thinking of Fluke not Keysight
Why is everybody so afraid of back EMF from relay coils? I tested a 1kg 10kW contactor AEG with 24 VDC coil. I let a 2N2222 drive the coil. No back EMF circuit. No problem.
The LM 324 has a slow output slew rate 0.5V/us minimizing HF interference, and it is cheap.
I had one of these in my company. Real engineering. What are the nice monitor speakers I see on your bench next to the screen?
"Little Bri'ish Monitors", I made a video about building those
man, i can only drool over owning one of those. Im just wondering why you didn't just trace it back to what was in line with the first diode?
What are these meters even used for in industry? Anyone got any examples?
New PPM content dropped!
33:39 test_80085 !
Just caught that one. Ha!
Why and what are you blurring or hiding hinter diese blaue Sticker
6:31 What the hell he is blurring out on the pcb???
Probably serial numbers. I think the blue tape in a few places is also trying to hide that
Which solder do you use? Is it lead free?
Thoroughly enjoyable ..............
Would you be able to share which solder wire you are using? I have used some Felder solder wire in the past but I wanted to check exactly which alloy you like to use.
My daily driver for quick&dirty, unimportant, digital stuff is currently Felder Sn100Ni+, very similar behavior to leaded alloys. For repairs that matter, like this, traditional 60/40 with rosin flux core
@@reps Thanks for the reply Marco. I thought that the solder you used in this video flowed very nicely so I am not surprised to hear it was good old 60/40. Cheers.
I tossesd and turned last night worried I lost a few ppms..
How much does one of these devices cost new? Just curious as I’ve never dealt in this field