On the topic, I feel inclined to make a comment about how much the fanbase's perception can change their objective view of a situation. Who here watches MCU films? Yeah, I know, they're not perfect, but I find Tony Stark to be an excellent point of comparison here. The man built himself a suit of armor likely far more powerful than even MJOLNIR, and used it to pull off some pretty cool stunts, right? Well, his portrayal is often of a flawed person, but he was made relatable by having him fall upwards from a morally dubious war profiteer into a redeemed and fundamentally noble soul who struggled constantly with his baser instincts to do better and to leave the world better than he found it. And... ...he failed, to be honest. The man was a liability from the start, almost to the finish. He created almost all of his own worst enemies. His haphazard handling of his suit's own technology and of other superheroes and supervillains put people at risk needlessly. He even ended up being the catalyst that led to the destruction of a team comprised of Earth's other great heroes. His laundry list of personality flaws, thrown in at the start as a means of making him charming and likable also ended up being his greatest liability. As a superhero, he would be a failure if not for his final act, where he, more through numbers of lives saved than through merits we could have expected to last had he survived, redeemed himself, since bringing back half the universe trumps any comparatively small missteps made along the way. I have a bit of a theory that the reason Dr. Strange's extremely and unnecessarily convoluted plan to beat Thanos wasn't truly the only way to beat him, but it was the only future the universe would be safe from both Thanos _and_ Stark. Harsh, but tell me it doesn't make sense from that perspective. And yet, people still adore Stark, and they hate the Spartan-IVs. Why? Well, part of it's context, part of it's writing, and part of it is prior expectations. Tony Stark is the godfather of the MCU. He was there before anyone else was. His origin story is what came to define the entire franchise. He drew in a specific demographic of people who enjoyed his portrayal as a snide, narcissistic, reckless, but fundamentally well-intentioned man playing with arguably far too much power for his own good. But Halo was introduced to us with people more akin to Steve Rogers. Professional, quiet, and unshakable, with morals that, while not at DC superhero levels of ideal, are still very strong, despite a very dubious origin story. Next to Superman or even Captain America, suddenly having "Tony Stark" shoved on us might be a bit jarring and given prior expectations, we might find we hate him the way MCU fans hate Captain Marvel for being what is objectively a very capable and powerful superhero with a fairly solid grasp of what she needs to do, but one who doesn't have an interesting or likable personality to go along with it. The Spartan-IVs have personality, but it doesn't fit the context well. They are often portrayed as grotesquely unprofessional compared to any of the prior generations, and worse, this is often a liability. And I believe that a handful of early mistakes have forever colored fan perception of the entire unit. Many S-IVs _are_ highly professional, capable soldiers in their own right. No, they aren't a match for past generations, but they're cold, stoic, focused, and preternaturally deadly, much like their predecessors. Many of the S-IVs seen in the base Halo 4 campaign, and Fireteam Osiris come to mind. But our first named S-IV characters are all unprofessional, undisciplined, and nowhere near as competent as they should be in combat situations. Despite having a distinguished service record and a great deal of respect for her fellow servicemembers (most of the time), Palmer is not a good leader, nor is she particularly likable. Worse, her class of S-IVs was the first, and they didn't conduct themselves appropriately then, either. They actually did so badly in the immediate post-augmentation period that Jun and Musa, a III and II, respectively, chewed them out for their shortcomings. And the less said about the extreme, at times almost Red vs. Blue levels of immaturity half of Fireteam Majestic displayed during the Requiem campaign, or in subsequent operations, the better. My father used to tell me, "First impressions are _lasting_ impressions." And he's completely correct here. I believe that no matter what legitimate merits S-IVs have, it will be nearly impossible to make people _like_ them now because every time they see a capable, professional, and focused Spartan like, for instance, Jameson Locke, a man who even Thel 'Vadam, an extremely strict judge of character and fighting prowess, deemed worthy of respect, even hinting that he reminded him of _the_ Spartan, John-117, enough to perhaps even consider him a _peer_ to the man, they will always look at him and see Paul DeMarco. Or Anthony Madsen. Or Carlo Hoya. I believe Locke is an example of an S-IV who was selected and trained based on lessons learned from the failings of prior S-IVs. Stricter psychological screening is the most important factor. It's also possible that their enhancements and armor are more advanced, given the crazy stunts they pulled off relative to known named S-IVs in the Requiem campaign. They fight more like supersoldiers. Majestic fought more like regular troops with enhanced strength and coordination, but with poor discipline. They certainly come off as more professional than ODSTs have historically been portrayed. Which brings me to the ODSTs, as a point of comparison. People adore them. Some of the most beloved characters in the franchise are ODSTs. Buck, Johnson, and comparatively minor characters like Stacker and the other members of Alpha-Nine. And yet, were you to hold them to the same standards as Spartans, you would find them quite lacking. (Indeed, they arguably don't even hold up to the standards imposed on real-world special operations personnel at times. They are far too prone to fighting one another or other UNSC servicemembers, for example.) Even Johnson is far too talkative and loud, and too ready to crack jokes or let his emotions get the better of him in the field to stand with S-IIs or even the relatively undisciplined S-IIIs, were he to be augmented to comparable levels. But they're human, like 00 said. They _aren't_ held to those standards, so people can appreciate their relative merits for what they are. It's all about expectations. Spartan-IVs are _not_ true successors to Spartan-IIs or IIIs...and that's okay. Despite how they're played up as "replacements" for them in the very introduction to Halo 4, they're a different breed of soldier for a different and _wildly_ misunderstood role. As I've said many times before, S-IIs are advanced prototypes with no expense spared in their training and their equipment. S-IIIs are arguably a limited production run of more cost-effective personnel, to be created and expended in times of extraordinary crisis. Both of them did their fairly limited jobs well. Spartan-IVs are the production model, so to speak. They aren't as capable, but they don't have to be. They just have to be supersoldiers, able to be created in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the cost, and fielded in far greater numbers to handle jobs which would otherwise require one of the precious few remaining S-IIs or S-IIIs who survived the war. If they can do the vast majority of the work their predecessors can, that's enough. It just means the living legends can be where they're needed most. S-IVs make a _lot_ of military sense from a logistical standpoint. Not many laymen understand how damned _important_ making something logistically viable is for any military organization. They don't necessarily _care_ that their troops are "the best," they want their troops to be as good as they possibly can while still being _sustainable_ with the available supply lines. As good as they are, past Spartan generations are _not_ as cost-effective as their all-volunteer "successors." S-IVs routinely do about as much damage to Covenant, Innie, and Promethean assets, even if more of them die, and more of them make mistakes. On a macroscale, this is an acceptable tradeoff. Ships still get blown up, projects still get sabotaged, HVTs still get captured or killed, enemy offensives get blunted at minimal cost and risk to UNSC forces, and regular troops and the UEG's public still get to look up to superhuman killing machines in powered armor.
A really good read, I always give old unloved cars a chance, I think the Austin Allegro is a good car, many do not. I feel that it is perfectly capable of filling the brief of what a car should do, even if it isn't perfect. I think it is the same with the S-IVs, while no one is saying they are rubbish (well not many are saying) It is true they shouldn't be held to unfair standards of traumatised orphans or brainwashed children turned into slaughter machines. Indeed, I think their humanity should be celebrated, as they show that you can be extraordinary, and grounded, a message that is timeless in its importance
@@benhooper1956 I'm not really that knowledgeable about cars, but if I had to make a rough comparison, S-IVs are like the Tesla Model S versus something like a Bugatti Chiron standing in for S-IIs. Both are supercars, but one costs a _hell_ of a lot less and sports newer technology with a lot of potential once it's developed further. And like you said, S-IVs are human. A Model S is an attainable goal for a middle-class worker, whereas a Chiron is reserved for the guy who owns a few mansions. We might hold S-IIs to a high standard and think of them as the future of humanity, but they were created to defend the humanity of the here-and-now first and foremost. That _has_ to mean it has value, too. And, like you said, their creation process is essentially "guilt-free." I suppose, if I wanted to make certain motorists roll their eyes, the Model S is greener than a car with sixteen cylinders and a mere 11 miles per gallon in-city. Newer tech _eventually_ makes things easier, safer, and more efficient. That's not _always_ true, but it's the general trend throughout history. End of the day, both cars will turn heads and get you laid, so...
Gabriel Thorne embodied what a Spartan IV should be in my opinion. Thoughtful and stoic, but perhaps more human than previous generations. Even though Halsey was mostly dismissive of the IVs, she appeared to recognize that Thorne came closer to the ideals of the original program more than his peers. Thorne was one of the few people who treated her with respect, knocking on the door of her quarters and politely requesting her to join him instead of just barging in like others did. In combat, Thorne has showed creativity and innovation by hijacking a banshee and using Glassman’s explosive vest to cover their escape.
Yeah and in the comics and expanded material there are others that show this kind of attitude, which is a shame because in the games it's the complete opposite mostly.
I can understand the hostility some of the 4's had for Halsey. It must have been a hell of a shock to discover how the Spartans were created, especially with many of them likely having kids themselves.
@@ryank5424 Definitely. Explains why they had Spartan Thorne guarding her while in full Mjolnir. Very possible that some of the crew or even other Spartans might have attempted to harm or kill her because her methods were so unethical.
I love the spartan IVs conceptually. The problem is how 343 presents them. It's said that only the best of the best are allowed to become spartan ivs and many of them were former ODST's but they are constantly being depicted as frat boys that think their shit don't stink. They should be presented as elite tier 1 operator type soldiers not cocky trust fund kids who's parents just bought them a yacht.
For me this was a perfect breakdown of the differences. I love Buck, Vale and Palmer as Spartans, but as he Buck said "we are demi gods compared to the previous Titans and actual Gods of Spartan II & III's.
@@keltonblack3492 Buck even states in that book that while watching the fight between Locke and John that it was clearly one-sided and that Locke "was handed his own ass"
@@midgetydeath other the way around. The Spartan twos only had maybe a few hundred survive the full process whereas the Spartan threes had several companies of a couple hundred but they were shorter and a little weaker than spartan twos. Spartan threes were a mass production stopgap. Spartan fours are supposed to be the best of all the great augmentations of the twos and the reproduceability of the 3s
@@EnglishTomm Halo: The Fall of Reach novel, Battle of Sigma Octanus-IV, Post battle debrief by ONI and HighCom This quote comes before Chief gets Mk.V, it’s an interaction between MCPO-117 and a surviving UNSCMC Corporal.
@@hounsdjentlow3074 Bruh my fave so far (or even my favourite pleasure book ever). Eric Nylund just fits so well with my image of a perfect militaristic sci fi. Just like Gombrowicz mirrors my outlook on social interactions (there must be English translations of his works, seriously read it, you might find a gate to another dimention of perception with them or you might not get them at all).
Kinda remindes me of how Buck once said that the IIs were like the Greek Titans, the IIIs the Gods, and the IVs Demigods. Even in cannon the IIs & IIIs were larger than life beings who you could almost never compare up to.
Thats one thing I like about the "New Blood" book as how they go into the UNSC expectations for the IVs and how they aren't held to the same standards as the IIs & IIIs.
I like how comparing the S-IIIs to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece makes them both less powerful and superior to the S-IIs (the Titans), very apropos considering most S-IIIs were given SPI armor, which doesn't boost their abilities like Mjolnir did for the S-IIs. However, some S-llls were given Mjolnir, and with that and their better training could make their feats even more unreal. And as we all know, the Greek gods and goddesses were the ones who defeated the mighty Titans.
If the Spartan IV's are to be demigods then they must be some inbred face strapped backward ass demigods cause they definitely fight like the demigods of dirt eating. Heck who knows they might just be a full blow Titan in that category as the only Spartan program to reach it.
@@waluigisilver7773 Wrongish. The gods defeated the tyrannical titans with the help of OTHER TITANS. titans still ruled alongside the new gods and were in Olympus, and ect. A good example was Atlas, Helion, prometheus to name a few. It was the titans in general who helped Zeus, Posiden, and hades imprison their father cronos. Another fact. Zeus, posiden and hades had equal sway and pull. They ruled jointly. The only reason Zeus is called king of the gods is because most of the gods resided in Olympus. Mostly because they were his offspring, or decided to stay in Olympus after the defeat of cronos. Zeus rules the skies. Posiden ruled the earth and seas. The one closest to mortals. Usually the one meddling in the affairs, good or bad. Hades ruled the underworld , tarturus, and Elysium for mortals. He eventually gave elysium to persephone as a wedding gift. (So hell, ultra hell and heaven.)Only exceptional beings or demigods were given access to outside these realms. Like being a servant to hades.. live in olynpus.. be in Atlantis ect ect. The strongest of the bunch was hades. He could leech power, life essence from any being and give it. He also was fortune, luck and guardian of Tarturus to make sure cronos and the other titans never escaped. People often mistake him for the god of death, which is wrong too. That is Thanatos.
Don't get anybody knowing about the S3s. If Spartans were top secret, the 3s were beyond that. Basically made two generations that both got massacred at single events each. Then the 3rd generation didn't even get a chance to make it off planet. Plus compared to 2s they were severely cut down in terms of.power. The 4s are probably stronger. The 3s were strength in numbers and cheapness.
Yeah but that left chief almost physically incapable of understanding normal human emotions such as cowardice or fear seeing as how he worked with fearless soldiers and Spartans, when he met Echo-216 you can see him being almost weirded out by the pilots want for self preservation and fear. It then took time for him to truly grasp again what he was fighting for and again understanding natural human emotions and fears outside a combat setting. What I’m saying is chief was bred to be an almost emotionless fighting machine which left him in a state of confusion with how normal people react. Leaving him to be socially isolated and incapable of full leadership and interaction with anyone outside the spartan program or any executive leadership role in the UNSC - bar some exemptions.
@@ProtocolAbyss Oh, I know, but the result in the field can't be denied. Chief may lost his ability to act like a regular person, but he's still tbe greatest soldier the UNSC ever had. Besides, it wasn't that bad, the guy wasn't nearly as much of a machine as the last 3 games imply.
@@voicingdragoon7 He most certainly was human. He cracked jokes, was sarcastic, consoled people when they were anxious. He was certainly awkward but no doubt he was human
@@EnigmaEnginseer Less so than most other people. He's not exactly the most social person ever. His jokes and sarcasm was fairly minimal, especially out in the field where he spent most of his time. Think it was mostly the social aspect they meant by human. Chief didn't really have family, his colleagues were family to him, of course, but nobody that he would need to go home to once his fighting was over. For Chief it was his soldiers and the mission, nothing else that held him back
@@ProtocolAbyss Except he has humanity in spades in the books. The ONLY Spartan-II EVER marked KIA, was his best friend Samuel. I'm pretty sure it's late in book 3 or not even until book 4 were he finally switches Sam's official status to MIA, because "Spartans never die. They're legends." He loves Blue Team like siblings, Halsey like a mother, and Cortana like someone irreplaceable. (Which is also shown in the Bungie games, at least) He's somewhat emotionally constipated, like Batman... but he loves his family... like Batman. I really don't think 343 truly understood any of the characters. I mean, look at the travesty that was the streaming series. Holy F. Look what they did to Cortana. And then they chickened out and tried to have their cake and eat it, too, by giving you back Cortana, but she was lobotomized. She's so derpy. I hate everything they did.
Spartan augmentations wil eventually become the norm for mainstream Humanity. When that happens it'll be a whole new ball game. The standard will have to be.....I dont know. But Im eager to find out.
I always saw S2’s as legends of old brought into reality. True one-man armies that could carry an entire battle on their shoulders. I view S3’s as grittier and more industrial having had corners cut since the S2’s and thus they operated much more grounded and darkly. Almost like an unseen death, they remind me of real life special forces, more comfortable with being stealthy or unconventional. Their look is what makes them my favorite. S4’s remind me of if we took 18 year old marines and made them better than ODST’s. They aren’t legends like the S2’s and they aren’t a hidden death like S3’s, they’re just… ODST’s but better. They don’t really have a thing. It’s like if Titanfall Pilots never had Titans.
I agree with you. They fail like ODST's would on some missions, but it's rare to hear about how a Spartan II or a Spartan III failed a mission. They may die to get it done, but they get it done. I would like to propose a different perspective though; I personally think that Spartan IV's "thing" as you put it, is that you can make them easier. It's a more streamline process with little to no red-tape. It's like they traded the ability to make the occasional Thor for the ability to make a metric fuck-ton of Batman's; Sure, not the same, but I wouldn't count an army of Batmen out.
As an actual Marine, the frat boy energy definitely does not go away while you're in the Corps. I think the Spartan IVs are perfectly indicative of the life of our currently younger service members in the Corps. However, as Marines, they should step up to the plate when it's time - but 343 has yet to make them as such, and just like real life, Marines post Iraq/Afghanistan have yet to see war.
@E115 well, it fits perfectly in line with the real life decline of military might. 80 years ago, during world war 2, nothing seemed more promising than the Worldwide use of Nuclear Power, both for civil growth and Military Expansion. Once a Nuclear bomb was dropped on someone though, everyone realized how horrific such a tactic would play out on a grand scale, and that Nuclear Power is not something to mess around with. . Similarly, the UNSC designed the Spartan-II’s during a time of unbridled chaos. The Human colonies were rising up in Rebellions, while the UNSC fought a second front against the Covenant in the early days. The Spartan-II’s were born out of pure desperation to create a Super Soldier capable of quelling the Rebellions across dozens of different worlds, and eventually to combat the increasing threat of the Covenant. Once the wars continued on and people learned that the S2’s were created through illegal Child Slavery practices and beating, torturing and injecting them with random chemicals whilst brainwashing them for nearly 2 full decades before they’re released into the field; People deemed the S2 and the S3 creation process as Illegal and Immoral. This led to the creation of the S4 Program, which went back to the way S1’s were developed; Through voluntary adult recruits who actually wanted to be a part of it. Seeing as the UNSC no longer had those 12 years from 6 to 18 to ruthlessly beat and brainwash them, the 18 year olds they recruited already had full lives before the UNSC, and thus weren’t as easy to manipulate and pressure into outright believing what the UNSC told them.
@@z-man1237 ya I wasn’t mad at them but it definitely made the whole idea of being super soldier a little less bad ass ya know. I’m still on the fence about getting a new system after my 360 died I want to continue the experience of halo but there are a few PlayStation exclusives that I really want to try and I can’t justify two systems.
Right, but why have a small group of special, when you can have everyone be ascended to being greater than their prior selves? Special is relative. I’d rather everybody be super, than a small group of people or a limited amount. For lores sake- I get it, we want to play characters that stand out amongst the rest, but think about the progress, advancements, etc. humanity could make if we had 1000’s of Einstein’s, Mozart’s, etc. rather than 1 or 2. Realistically, the “once everyone is super, no one will be,” works well in fiction and is great for a player- but in real life is asinine. Edit: within a vacuum of halo games I understand the sentiment, and can agree with it.
The problem is that we, the viewer, never had a “passing of the torch” moment. We never saw how an S4s life experiences, could be added INTO the Spartan’s way of life, or how when push came to shove, they stepped up to the plate. Perfect example, Halo 4. You see the flaw of the S4 when compared to S2. John was willing to, with nothing more than a broken AI, an unkept suit, and a pelican, take on the fucking didact to save humanity. He did the right thing, disobey orders for the sake of the greater good. What did every single S4 do? Play it safe and go back home to get reinforcements, and at the end, civilians died, while all they did was with their super suit, press the button to fire MACs to punch a hole in the ship for the Chief to fly into. It’s not the powers or the humanity, it’s their lack of determination to do whatever it takes to get the job done and protect lives. If a generic S4 had gone with the Chief, and was cheerful, cracked jokes and shit like that, sure, he was no S2, but he was STILL a Spartan, because when it came to step up to the plate and do the right thing, and not the safe thing, he stepped up.
Well spartan IIs have some troubles with empaty. SIVs might have been the ones who saw an imense treat and went back to get reinforcments and alert earth. Del Rio was a dpuche, but definetly wasnt a villain, he did what looked logical to defend it's ship and it's crew. Chief knew more, but didnt really share amy data in the cutescenes. In Halo 4 is stated sociopaty as something normal a.ong spartans, it does mean a degree of incapacity to deal with peoples emotions, or to care for it at all.
@@dragonweezle4876 No, actually, UNSC is based mainly of off US Military, and while I can’t attest to other militaries, the US Militaries have some standing orders (orders that follow you wherever you go, basically, and cannot he disobeyed, such as not leaving your post until properly relieved). I believe the Spartans IIs have standing orders, one of them is that if they believe a genuine threat must be eliminated, they can ignore all other orders, and even take command of assets. Or something to that effect
@@alvaroneto6486 they aren't sociopaths, that was part of a smear campaign directed at Halsey. The truth is that their form of emotional connection can't be shared or comprehended by other humans. That's the important lesson, just like how superman could destroy the earth if he wanted to, and even though he's not human (like the S2's), he would defend humanity no matter the cost.
A big problem I have with the 4s is that they have two completely different portrayals. There’s the 4s in the games and the 4s in the books. They are so dramatically different it’s hard to appreciate them as one whole. The 4s in the game are weak willed, brash, arrogant. The ones in the expanded lore are thoughtful, ever improving, and heroic. The games really REALLY bring down the image I have of the s4 generation
I don't read the books because my ADHD makes it impossible for me to adequately follow along with each word (and I don't like audio books for similar reasons); but after just the smallest details you've pointed out, I know wish the game Spartans were more like the book ones.
Gotta hard agree, many Spartan IVs in EU are Spartans through and through, but the named characters in game are pretty wack. They don't talk back, mission focused and are larger than life, though they do have occasional one liners. Why wouldn't they be though? As Spartan IV's their entire life is micromanaged to be in peak performance for combat by AI's, Prior Spartan instructors and their more experienced seniors, not to mention that they also have fought through an entire war and have experienced countless losses.
If the Buck books don't explore the idea of owning up to the name and overcoming fears and issues of body change I'm gonna throw a fit. (Up untill Halo Evolutions all of the books were great to me, with exception of The Flood which was dragged down by the retellings of CE but still good).
One more thing. The Weapon actually asked John-117 why he keeps doing this over and over again. He replied simply "It's all I know". Yeah, it's badass, but also kind of sad. EDIT: It was actually Echo-216 that asked the question.
@@rocstarang5747 We all have a purpose. Even something as simple as telling someone that you love them can change the future in ways unimaginable to the minds of men.
@@rocstarang5747We all walk the path. Some make it farther than others. Some walk backwards. Most that think they can see the path are far from it. We should all try to help others through instruction and noble debate where possible. The gods are generous and will greatly reward ones that do. If you encounter one that is closed off completely, it's best to just be kind to them. I sound like something Halsey would say to mess with an AI, lol...
"You merely adopted the Name of the SPARTAN. The II's and III's, they were borne through it, molded by it, and carried it in ways you never will. They are flawless, they are irreplaceable-" "Flawless? Isn't that taking it too f-" "They know no fear."
Similar to what it takes to be a Warhammer 40K Space Marine, even the Salamanders, the closest to being human are still far above a regular human and are still recognized as such.
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
@@shangothunder1055 you're just dodging the point being made here. The point is the existence of the IV's blunts the badass factor of supersoldiers that excel in the art of war. What we've been shown of the IV's is a bunch of flawed individual messing up and getting people killed and while this stigma doesn't apply to everyone for exemple osiris in the extended universe are badasses (even if in the game the way they fight and behave is less than expected) it certainly does not paint the IV's in a bright light espacially since the first team the games show are cocky, undisciplined, failures. it does not help that the game portays them as replacing the previous gens, it feels like the awesome SPARTANS we came to know and love are being replace by cheap knock-offs that don't embody the spirit of a SPARTAN PS: your point does make logistical sence however i will give you that.
@@zebaguettefromfrance1287 Nope there was never any point made to dodge. Just Nostalgiatards that can't let go of the past. Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. If 1 or 2 fireteams is enough for you to judge a branch/group your a fool. Besides Spartan 2/3s fked up plenty anded up getting fodderized. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
@@shangothunder1055 it's not even a matter of nostalgia in this case. I genuinely like 343's halo as opposed to most but even I can admit that 9 times out of 10, Spartan IVs tend to be characterized as total asses
I do know one thing. The one person that doesn’t care whether a spartan is a one, two, three, or four is John 117. John is a team player. In his mind they’re ALL his brothers and he wants them to survive. When he sees any spartan die it breaks his heart. Just look at his reaction to the dead Spartans in halo infinite. They were 4s and He was heartbroken about their deaths. It was like looking at a father losing a son or a man losing his brother. I personally think that some fans out there are too hard on the Spartan 4s. I’m not gonna judge the entire group based on a few that we’ve seen in some Cut scenes in spartan ops. The ones that we meet in halo infinite were pretty cool and they fought well. Also I’m glad they stopped kidnapping kids. I mean I’m glad we have the master chief but still what Halsey did was messed up.
wehn he finds one of the spartans dead he just aid "we have a score to settle" for me, that single phrase tells me a lot, about how he to chief see spartans, no matter the generation, he look at them as brothers, and thats just great
@@DarKronoz I know right!? He doesn’t have a elite high class attitude. In his mind, he’s just a soldier,plain and simple. Save lives finish the mission and go home(then Cryo sleep). Rinse and repeat. Plus a lot of Spartan 4s respect John. Even Sarah Palmer. When that Rio guy asked her to arrest him, she disobeyed orders. 👍🏼
@@DarKronoz It probably helps people accept that when all the S-IVs that die are either surrounded by dead Banished (which is probably one of the preferred ways for Spartans to go) or are in a situation where they literally can’t do anything (RIP Griffin).
This is a very old thing in the lore. John-117 was never truly a Spartan 2 as originally envisioned (basically just a weapon who followed orders) by Dr. Halsey. In terms of combat ability in lore that takes place before the events of Halo hes very middle of the road. However Halsey noticed two things about John: he retained an independent streak that treated even the most painstakingly descriptive orders as simply objectives, and if he could find a way to do it better he would. In their wargames and then in real life this often took the form of him doing his level best to avoid unnecessary losses and to rescue men under his command. Whereas the other IIs would do things like make plans that deliberately sacrificed dozens or even over a hundred men if it created a better opportunity to execute the main objective. That isn't to say Chief always tried to save everyone all the time, just that he had fundamentally different thoughts on what you owed the men under your command. This isn't really a surprising result though because remember the IIs were originally meant to end a century long civil war by crushing human insurrectionists with overwhelming force and no mercy. It's not surprising most of them ended up lacking a certain level of empathy and consideration for humans even if they were on the same team . The other major thing was in this program that was supposed to be a strict meritocracy, despite being middle of the road, his peers basically looked to him for guidance. She described it to Keys as being an unquantifiable something that inspired loyalty and made him an incredible natural leader. So Chief in his pre reach/pillar of autumn deployments was never treated like the other IIs were. ONI was smart enough to play to his strengths, and as a result even before the events of Halo he was already pretty much a legend among the Marines and naval personnel. The events of Halo basically just further cemented that he was essentially the best of the Spartan IIs. However he was the best because of qualities that were initially considered undesirable by Halsey and ONI, and Halsey had to do a bit of a turn around on her initial feelings that Spartan IIs should just be weapons that never question orders. Instead she ended up selling the idea that would be the most common outcome but occasionally some individual traits would be so strong they would survive conditioning and if they were beneficial to the actual goals of the program they should be embraced and catered to as the Spartans we're likely going to be the best execution of those traits.
In the book “ghosts of onyx”, Spartan 2 Kurt was pointed out to lack Spartan professionalism because he talked too much. Chief made this statement and it supports your video as well. Kurt lead green team I think, but was still highly respected because his instincts were unbelievable and the squad he led was tied in war games with blue team.. chief was nit picking but that alone shows the standards Spartan 2s expect from one another. Later on in the chapters Kelly was introduced to a squad of soldiers wearing prototype armor, she was impressed with their professionalism and resilience (quiet and mission driven) but later found out that they were the new generation of Spartans, the 3s.. who were also trained and molded at a very young age.
@@mitchellhalvorson9719 washout? I feel like that undermines what they went through. Weren't they almost killed from the augmentation then recovered enough to finish the process?
The only thing obsolete is her comment. Spartan 4's where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors humanity. 1 or 2 fireteams don't represent the whole group. Plenty of Spartans 2/3s have fked up, and been fodderized. We are fighting genocidal aliens, space zombies, and ancient robots. We now have the ability to officiantly and ethically create more Spartans but let's not utilize this capability so a few old ones can be exclusive & special.🤪 Let this nostalgia clouded BS mindset go already.😒
I think in a lot of ways the Spartan 2s and 3s are more like equipment assets than troops. The morale and confidence boost the Spartans provide is akin to the boost an A-10 coming online for gun runs gives infantry on the ground imo. Doesn’t matter how bad shit gets, everyone cheers when they hear that “brrrrrrrrrt”
The irony of course is that Chief is (so far the only) the exception to the general rule of the IIs especially being equipment or weapons. Halsey says he's more than a Spartan because some unquantifiable something inside him that makes him inspire loyalty and allows him to be a great natural leader managed to not only survive conditioning but was enhanced by it. Like John is her favorite for sure, but it seems like in the lore she can't decide if he's a failed Spartan or the perfect Spartan. Because the very things that make John-117 this larger than life legendary figure simply called "THE Master Chief" are the things that make him divergent from what the original conception of a Spartan was supposed to be. Notably ONI seems to have liked what it saw because you saw much more of this sort of acceptance and playing to divergent strengths in the IIIs as opposed to trying to completely homogenize them into an ideal "ultimate battlefield warrior"
Yes I’d like a spartan to be more human it seems like a cool concept, but when they act like a basic 24 year old with armor irritates me because I am ok with them being more human but they are still hyper lethal soldiers that should be robots at least at face value but as you learn them have more humanity deep inside
Probably would've been better had UNSC use ODST selection and training as a base for Spartan IV selection but make it even longer. Then another 5 years of training after the candidates got their augmentations. OTOH, preferably ODST veterans.
3:59 "Poor choices on the battlefield, misconduct, *disrespect, ignorance of the chain of command, conversation on their sexual conquests, fraternization, arrogance,* to name a few." I love the disdain in his voice when he talks about the flaws of the IV's
Most of these are pretty normal for any soldier. Hell even some of the vaunted Spartan-II have done this and worse. Also, fraternization is not a flaw, like, at all. If you try to ban that in any military unit, there will be either a mutiny, or a court-martial.
@@addisonwelsh I know that i'm just pointing out the way he says it. The probleme with the 4's is the frequency of these issues it happens way more often and in more delicate scenarios. Btw fraternization in the army is a crime defined by having an officer engaging in a relationship with a common enlisted soldier and no banning fraternization would not in fact cause mutiny this law was put in place to actually avoid loss of authority, discipline ,moral and the potential leak of military secrets. (you might be mistaking fraternization with the Married Army Couples Program (MACP))
@@zebaguettefromfrance1287 Well in that case, the S-IV's aren't guilty of fraternization, unless he's misinterpreting fraternization as two soldiers talking to each other, like most war movies usually depict it as.
I disagree with "disrespect, fraternization, and arrogance" somehow being "unspartanly" qualities. All of those characteristics can be seen within noble team. This guy misses the whole point of Reach, that spartans were never robots. They are actually human.
We keep forgetting that the Spartan IVs are recruited soldiers from other top tier UNSC divisions and that the Spartan IIs are indoctrinated, kidnapped children that are heavily augmented to still surpass the enhanced/better tech, yet less invasive surgeries taken to get into the Spartan IV program. I think the point on the professionalism part is that maybe the Spartan IIs were the greatest professionals, but it came at a cost of their livelihoods, even their childhood to be indoctrinated not by their own decision making. Hard to sell the best SOF members of the UNSC to partake in a elite soldier program that is marred in a legacy of child experimentation. Literally the S4s are for individuals with already developed life experiences and the entire program is publicized as a recruitment based operation while its dark history is hidden buy the likes of ONI. That’s essentially how I interpreted the Spartan IV when I saw them for the first time. There really was never a satisfying passing of the touch, because the Spartan IIs and maybe IIIs were literally swept under the rug post-Covenant War. If felt intentional to me in the Halo 4 campaign when Chief meets the Infinity crew for the first time to me. Just my thoughts.
Chief: "Our duty is to protect humanity, whatever the cost" Lasky: "You say that like humanity and soldiers are two different things, we're not machines we're just people" I think this perfectly encapsulates his point of "the problem isn't the Spartan, it's us" throughout the whole series of halo it's almost as we saw the Spartans we played as and the Spartans in lore as a whole as being these unthinking unfeeling killing machines while rarely ever making an error, almost like a tool to be used, and while it may be true that they are ungodly proficient at killing and have an extremely hard time socializing with fellow humans with the extra burden of having Virtually no freedom, underneath all that armor and all that military training drilled into their head you'll find a human, someone who has the same weaknesses of immortality, human error, and emotion, but just buried all away under this image of being an invulnerable superhero, and that's the burden of a superhero which is burdening the problems of society so they may live to see a better tommorow. It's a topic I think 343 did a pretty damn good job at addressing which is the emotional side of a spartan that has been drilled away by years of military conditioning and battle experience, it was also shown of pretty well in halo legends with the squad of odst's. You could say that chiefs struggle to find out if he was machine or man could be symbolic for every Spartan 2&3's struggle being he's the prime example of what a spartan should be at this point.
Anyone remember the injured soldiers in Halo 3 in the second mission when Chief walks in and they’re like “a Spartan?! We’re saved” cause 1 Spartan turned up when an army was knocking on the door. I’d like to see the Spartan 4’s get that kind of respect.
I'd argue that the superhero template you might wanna compare Spartans to is Capt. America, not Superman. Superman is basically a demi god, whereas Cap still is fundamentally human.
Captain America is a superhero. Just as Batman is a super hero. He even gave a definition of what a superhero is supposed to be, not what abilities they have.
@@Halo_Legend that's my point, basically. Spartans are extremely far removed from someone like Superman. But not from Cap. Steve Rogers would've been a fine Spartan, if not the best of them (sorry Chief).
@@GhostRydr1172 I have a feeling that they might have been best buddies if they existed in the same universe. That is if Bucky doesn't step in and say "Steven is MY best friend!"
@@GhostRydr1172 Steve Rogers fundamentally is different from Chief. Chief is literally bred to be a war machine, with his human nature inching its way out so very slowly. Rogers' fighting skills are just a byproduct of the serum which was given to him based on his humanity. He goes and says "I don't want to kill *anyone* I just don't like bullies". If able, he'll avoid killing people as much as he can. He's the opposite of the war machine that Chief is. They won't necessarily be enemies either, it's just that they're not similar in personality or values. They're both supersoldiers, but represent very different things.
This is one of the best spartan breakdown videos I've ever seen. I do want to point out however, I disagree with your idea of spartan IVs being a problem. Halsey's Spartans were created to stop rebel uprisings and prevent insurrections. They were never specifically meant to be war heroes. They were meant to be monsters, putting fear into anyone that would stand against the unsc. They weren't meant to be human, that I agree with you on. However, she states during the promotional material for Halo 4 that her Spartans are an evolution of humanity, it's destiny. What she says here clearly shows that she no longer views her creation separate from humans, but integrated with it, as something better. Her Spartan IVs are that perfect integration. In one of the books, which are cannon, we follow Bucks transition to spartan and we see that they too are augmented (to a lesser degree), which makes them more than human. They're faster, taller, stronger, sharper. They are super in every sense. But they are also human. Qualities that Halsey clearly wanted to keep in her future spartan programs. She doesn't simply see them as soldiers. I feel a large part of her motivations involve John. She's clearly very attached to him and she even says "don't underestimate him", bit just "don't underestimate my Spartans". Sure we see Chief as a super soldier, but he's showed many moments of humanity. Not giving up on his fellow soldiers, not giving up on Cortana even though it goes directly against his indoctrination. Halsey saw all of these events and probably came to the same conclusion I did. You can put as many ideas into a child's head as you want. You can change their body, mangle their sense of self. But you never take away their humanity. Given time it will always show through, because it's the human part of the spartan that makes them great, and Halsey seems to understand that too.
Spartan IVs in concept makes sense. Economics of scale, streamlined processes and technological advancement would've allowed above average soldiers to become Spartans. In execution though, well. The Spartan IVs we've seen doesn't really make a good impression. Palmer isn't all bad when viewed from the lens of jokey soldier banter in respect to how she greeted chief, but when she doesn't at least acknowledge MC despite her being higher in rank it's understandable why she has a bad first impression amongst fans. Then there's Team Majestic who's... dynamic isn't all that great save for one or two of them. And team Osiris is just butchered by poor writing. It's a shame cuz the concept of mass production Spartans (less powerful but more economically sustainable and expandable) is great when put in contrast to the IIs (literal F1 cars w very questionable source material) and IIIs (more of a souped up performance car but just as questionable). But they're just wasted by poor writing. A disappointing missed opportunity honestly.
@@fishescu Master Chief Petty Officer (the same rank Chief has) is an E-9 *Senior Enlisted* rank in the Navy. In other words he's a high ranking *non-commissioned officer* (aka an *NCO* ) in the Navy. Palmer is a Commander which is an O-5 *Commissioned officer* rank in the Navy (aka *CO* ). So technically speaking... she does outrank him since all Commissioned Officers *outrank enlisted soldiers* but as far as military honor & traditions go. A highly decorated/Senior Enlisted soldier like Chief is given similar if not the same respect and command authority as an officer would.
@@brandonparson8821 thanks for the explanation m8. In essence @Petru O yeah Palmer outranks Chief in hierarchy, but Chief is far more honoured and experienced than Palmer.
I feel like Palmer is over compensating, I know she was a ODST and they have I particular dislike for S2s due to the incident where MC killed and crippled a group of ODSTs as a teen shortly after he was Augmented. In fact the ODST commdaning officer on board the Piller of Autum out right called chief a freak to his face when.
@@brandonparson8821 I'm 95% positive that Chief is MCPON. There's supposed to be only one of those, and even if that isn't accurate, the dude has the Medal of Honor...any awardee is always referred to as "ma'am" or "sir", rank no longer being a concern. Palmer did neither. EDIT: Yeah, just confirmed it: Chief was "posthumously" promoted to Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy at the end of Halo 3
I know the topic of interest for the video is the problem with Spartan-IV's, but that end cutscene with halo 4 with Master Chief just casually walking to an armor bay while the whole deck just stares with pure awe always hits me. That's right boys. THIS is what legends look like.
I always thought this to a degree whenever john would interact with another human. How would a "god of war" perceive the peons and speak to them. Stoic, straight to the point and no room for emotion
After reading 40K novels, I get the sense the Spartan IIs talk to outsiders like the Space Marines do, the only difference is that the S IIs can and do end up making connections with some of the outsiders (Johnson, Mendez, Captain Keys, Captain Cutter, Forge, etc.) where as the space marines very rarely do
@@Russianmafiaman seeing S-IIs marking personal connections with people is one of the most damned interesting thing about them. My favorite examples are Naomi-010 in the Kilo-5 trilogy and Fred-104 in the books Last Light and Retribution. It’s nice to see these people, who have been through some truly awful things, have something good in their lives outside the confines of their “Duty”. Even if it’s just friendly interactions with the rest of the ranks.
@@bryantgiles1809 Not the same thing from a person who either got basic training vs a handpicked person who has genetic markers for war then trained for easily more than double some of the 4s entire service record. Even if we say they are equal, in terms of abilities, 4s would not be as efficient as 2s or 3s. Even ignoring all that the biggest issue with the 4s is how they are portrayed honestly. Who the hell removes they helmet from a suit worth more than a ship to kick around alien tech....then freak out when they are attacked.
@@peternash7104 Both are horrible, imagine being part of a planetary defense force where you failed to protect your planet and you're just 18 years old.
@@ls200076 Well that's not my point, my point is Spartans are freaks. Equally feared and respected. 4s are goofballs. Even 3s can be terrifying outside of SPI armor. Their training surpasses ODSTs and despite having 'worse' augments from the 2s it can easily rip apart a team of ODSTs. Remember a young John who not only was recovering from the surgery but didn't have full control over his movements slaughter ODSTs. A adult 3 should be comparable. The games don't reflect the lore correctly but it should give the right feeling. Both Spartan 2/3 had a presence in the story and narrative, illustrated by character interactions. 4s were treated like dipshits.
@@Feroce You don't need a war to make strong soldiers, also she deemed the rebellion the end of humanity and Spartans as the saviors. The rebellion shouldn't be downplayed.
I love how humble, leveled, nuanced and civilized you are, freely admitting that you don't hold the monopoly on Truth, that you can indeed be wrong at times and even more importantly: how you are always open to discussion, arguments and even willing make public amends if you have changed your mind on a subject. Especially in today's world, rational debate and respect for others are sadly almost extinct. I know you'll always stay amazing because you're built, were raised and taught like this, but I'll say it anyways: Stay amazing, keep speaking with the voice of reason and sanity and spreading this way of thinking/being just by actively engaging with the community!
That is absolutely what the SIV program's biggest weakness should be. That's part of why Halsey wanted prepubescent children: conditioning the mind and filling them with nonstop propaganda. No family or friends outside the program, etc.
Fans' complaints are the whole point, 4's are mass production Spartans. They are literally that one Marine in Crysis who says he'd go ninja on your ass if they gave him the suit, and it gives them their own unique flavor as a generation.
@@BrSgtJordan I'll tell you straight up, Spartan 4's are the most realistic portraits of servicemen. My only gripe is that they should've made them more like the ODSTs. They joke, they play around, they try to find bright spots in shitty situations because the human mind can't survive decades of war on broody, silient-protagonist bullshit alone. But when shit gets serious, they knuckle down.
See, they kinda gave you that. When you're in it comes in the form of bullshitting around when you're off duty, making dark jokes talking about sexual conquests telling crazy stories of your life before. Basically anything to fill the time between missions or patrols with noise. Because when it gets quiet? That's when the truly dark stuff comes. However when you're on mission you're 100% focused in the zone. However nobody liked this very true to life depiction. Probably because they never gave us a Spartan IV that went into work mode. Also I think a lot of people missed the point of the IVs pulling back for reinforcements really meant. That's the conventional wisdom when faced with overwhelming force. That's what you are taught to do, don't waste lives and material on a fight you can't possibly win, fall back and get reinforcements. The IVs were following their lifetime of military training they had the "benefit" of. Meanwhile Chief is a child soldier with extensive conditioning and prior experience in taking on losing battles and winning. Chief is equally beholden to his past training and conditioning. However unlike the IVs it doesn't say fall back it says push harder.
My favorite moments in halo games 1-reach was when marines or civilians or other non-super soldiers saw a Spartan and went, “A Spartan? We’re saved!” I hope we get that in infinite.
I've described it as: Spartan IV's are just tall marines. Spartan 2 and 3's never felt like a marine, they felt like 8 steps above the average soldier. Something horribly bleak but important about spartans of the past was the lack of humanity. They were machine-like, only caring about the mission and efficiency. I can picture spartan IV's talking about weekend plans and hobbies, whereas with earlier generations i picture them just shutting down when not in battle.
It’s fucked how much my childhood felt like a Spartan youth. Two narcissistic parents, life was “Code of the Family” [Bootcamp] and “Code of the Playground” [What I learned having to become incredibly independent at a young age] Shit fucks with you, man. Makes you nigh unsociable
I think this is a somewhat common misconception of Spartan II’s and Spartan III’s. We often think they’re cold and emotionless robots because our main example we see is John, he’s somewhat of an outcast even among Spartans. Johns main focus was always the mission, always to climb the ranks, he dove headfirst into the military life but not all Spartan II’s were like that, many of them craved more from life, they would make friends with others from the program and they’d basically grow like normal humans. Now when in combat or on a mission, all Spartan II’s and III’s were serious and robotic, they put their duty above all. But when off duty? They’d still hang out with their friends, even if it’s at the shooting range rather than a bar, it’s still relatable behaviour. John was just never like that, he was always a loner.
So something I've noticed in Halo 4 is how the first time Palmer meets John, she notes on how she thought he would be taller. They also show some similar height in the cutscenes. At the end of the game, John walks by Palmer and stands leaps and bounds above her and it shows her looking up to him and him down to her. It just shows shows how much more the 2s are beyond all others and they only realize it after the fact. Just my opinion though.
@@cdgamer7306 half of us are guys we cant take a hint even if it slaps us across the face. And there are people who ruin people's views of other people.
I don't think it's about the superhero dynamic, I think it comes down to feeling as though it was a power that's unfairly earned. The Spartan II's and III's sacrificed more than could reasonably asked of them to gain this power, and than continued to sacrifice themselves to protect humanity. But the Spartan IV's didn''t really have to sacrifice much, they weren't robbed of their childhood, put through tortuous surgeries and augmentations that marred their body, pretty much giving up their humanity to be protectors. It feels unfair, unearned, even though that's the reality of progress. It's like training hard your entire life to be the best at something, when someone comes along and simply gets an injection and accomplishes what you've sacrificed everything to achieve. And in a sense, it feels like MC is being left behind and everyone has grown attached to him. But this is the way of life, the old generation gives way to the new, and everything that the previous Spartans had to do, and endure is what gave rise to the Spartan Iv's.
I agree with you on the points of un earned power, but I feel a bigger part of why the IV's are so unliked comes down to respect. If the IV's respected what came before and treated their position with reverence towards the II's and III's that woud be one thing, but no one really respects MC properly in Halo 4 besides Lasky, and thats arguably more of a personal respect for what he did when Lasky was a kid. He gets little true respect from anyone on the Infinity despite the sacrifices he made to get there and the fact that every living being in the galaxy owes him their lives. That's the worst part in my opinion.
Honestly, it all just comes down to the writing and how they were portrayed. We had Halo reach with many "imperfect" superheroes but the story was written well and engaging. It felt familiar to us, whereas the art style and writing within H5 even made us dislike Cortana and basically all the characters for that matter. It just felt out of pocket and not quite right.
They didn't sacrifice! Their childhood and humanity were STOLEN from them! Basically beaten out of them by heartless instructors and scientists, who should all face execution for their crimes! Yes, it got them superhuman soldiers (probably above the Spartan IVs, because the IIs and IIIs will do even immoral things (not to mention that they don't have regular human emotions!) if it gets the desired results, because they don't actually care about more than the mission!), but the cost is IMHO too great and all Spartan IIs (and IIIs) should be retired post haste (given enough money to have a cushy life and deprogramming from their indoctrination!) ps: You can't sacrifice that which was stolen from you, so you don't have it anymore!
@@dreamingflurry2729 Sacrifice means more than one thing dude. You can still sacrifice something without it being willing or meaningful. The SIIs and SIIIs did sacrifice their humanity and childhoods, in return they became heroes, not willingly ofc. Also I believe the Spartan programs were justified. Without Halsey's program, Humanity in the halo universe would literally cease to exist. Not mention the entirity of life in the Halo universe since the Covenant would've been able to fire the Halo Rings, considering the UNSC would be able to stop them without the Spartans and Master Chief.
I'd say fireteam crimson deserve it more than Thorne Fireteam Crimson are what all Spartan IVs should be, quiet, strong, tactical, disciplined, etcetera etcetera
You really nailed it this time, I appreciate that they tried to show a more diverse cast of characters' but where I think they failed is at character and dialog writing; it's not that they weren't capable soldiers, or physically augmented, but rather that they weren't intellectually and psychologically as prepared. Mi issue is not with the Spartan IV program, but with the lack of professionalism their subjects show. They were supposed to already have a military career, and even more so to be on the top of their respective fields, but they behave in such an unprofessional, impulsive and arrogant way that they might as well be teens just playing Halo, instead of the most prepared, formal, intelligent and capable soldiers they are supposed to be. The writing department for Team Majestic went full on with the clichés of some modern day films that they ended up perpetuating the idea that "just go for it" making impulsive actions instead of thoughtful choices. That extends to other characters (as I wrote, my discomfort isn't against Spartan IV's but a critique on character writing) as exemplified by "Dr." Henry Glassman; in real life, no self respecting PhD in any area of STEM would just order a transfer of an unknown technological relic into a highly populated spaceship without any sort of extensive prior research, casing, and most disrespectful of all to the STEM community, to just "simply touch it and play with it" perpetuating the extremely unreal cliché of scientist as "nerd who don't know what are they doing and disregarding the safety of everyone" (that character might annoy me more than Majestic because I've grew up all my life in STEM and Research Centers and so it hurts me after seeing all the IRL work that many admirable people actually do for our advancement as a species). Returning to the IV's, I actually liked the original idea they had of trying to present them as more "human" (as if II's and III's weren't) given their background, but connecting them with a more "human" character, doesn't mean that they "have" to be immature and unprofessional; they don't need to "loose their humanity" to maintain composure and make thoughtful choices; specially when on duty. And I would know so as well on personal experience, because I studied, graduated and worked as an EMT (before entering my current mayor) and I know that even as "humans with emotions" a person can totally make logical and Extremely difficult choices even under totally critical moments dealing with life and dead and not only from other people, but many times yours as well since as an EMT you are not on a hospital, but on scene, outside of the ambulance and sometimes in the heat of the moment, with angry mobs trying to either aid or harm the person you are trying to save. And while I might pass off as someone "cold" sometimes, I assure You that I have never lost my emotions or my "humanity", otherwise I would have never decided to go to all the trouble and hassle to become a Red Cross EMT to aid people. So my discomfort with the character and dialog writing for the Spartan IV's (as well as some other characters) stem from the knowing that many random 21st century people can act professional even under dire circumstances and so I would expect that the most prepared military professionals of the 26th Century (and the extreme elite even by their standards) would be able to reflect the character and composure expected from them and furthermore the behavior, integrity and moral that led them to be selected from many, many other applicants into the Spartan program. I appreciate more diversity of characters, like with the ODST story, but their naming as Spartans broke the story telling and universe building that the franchise had been growing; breaking the immersion and hindering the suspension of disbelief. Even beyond the idealization of what a Spartan should look like for the player, the very simple element of professionalism and the lack of, made them look like just impulsive kids and therefore, damaged the credibility of the story as a whole when the UNSC would spent a mayor allocation of resources on the most expensive procedures and equipment on board the single most ambitious ship ever made by humanity, on them, out of all of their most capable soldiers.
I know I'm late, but I must add, I spent the entirety of highschool in the air force JROTC, and we are taught discipline, strength, and to keep both our uniformed and ourselves tidy. We are not allowed to cuss or participate in any acts that would stain our reputation while in uniform. When I watch the cutscenes with Majestic in H4, I just imagine all but Thorne just getting chewed out by thier commanding officer for thier misconduct while in uniform and on duty. They do not represent disciplined and experienced soliders, they're just a bunch of fratty collage students in fancy armor. There's better ways to make a solider human than this.
I don’t think that most of the criticisms about Spartan IVs actually hold any weight. Spartan IVs, both in the lore and in practice were never intended to play on the same level as their predecessors. It is explicitly stated that Spartan IV augmentations are significantly less extensive. Spartan IV selection is not as rigorous or exclusive. We can even plainly Spartan IVs aren’t even as tall as IIs. Spartan IVs were always intended to be in a wholly different, and lesser, class. Their behavior seems about par for the course with *real life* special forces units. They joke around. They have fun. There are a few hotheads. But most of them are professional when they need to be. As a side note here, I’ll never understand average fans treating Spartan IIIs like they were worthy “successors” to IIs but disavowing IVs because of their demeanor. The only IIIs we see in the game (Noble Team) can be just as immature and unprofessional as the IVs that we’ve spent the most time with in the games (Fireteam Majestic). Kat was a hothead who talked back to her superiors. Emile was a jerk who liked picking on Jorge. On the other hand, there were Spartan IVs (Locke, Vale, Griffin) who could be just as stoic and constantly professional as III exemplars (Carter, Noble 6). The difference between IIIs and IVs in this regard is that we had an opportunity to see IVs in a more or less relaxed state of mind, where situations didn’t feel hopeless and they weren’t constantly fighting a losing war. On the other hand, pretty much all of our team spent with Noble Team was shrouded by a sense of impending doom, and we literally had to watch most of the team die because of how utterly hopeless the situation they were in *actually* was. *Real* heroes aren’t so different. They fool around when things aren’t serious, but they can flip the switch into stoic and determined mode as soon as shit hits the fan.
On the note of Noble Team, they argue and pick on each other in a way which is realistic, so you become attached to these characters. In Halo 5 I expected a laugh track because the interactions were so stiff. I don't think people are giving bad writing credit in how the spartan iv are viewed by fans.
@@kingsizedmidget7294 What “bad writing” are you talking about? Halo 5’s writing problems come from a requirement on outside knowledge in order to follow the story and a failure to pay off story elements set up in Halo 4, Spartan Ops, and the actual marketing for the game. As a self-contained story, the writing is just fine and the interactions between characters are not “stiff.” At least, if you think they are in Halo 5 then it’s an absolute wonder that you got through *any* of the Halo games. And speaking of Halo 5, it just reminded me that Spartan IIs and aren’t even actually the humorless killing machines that we expect them to be. The very first mission we play with Fred has him joking about court martialed as the entire team goes AWOL.
I can definitely see what you mean about the III's however I'd argue that Noble team feels like a family (much like you'd expect a group to feel like that have been together that long) when they found out Jorge wasn't alive, they all, even Emile seemed tense and angry, but glad he could go out thinking he'd saved the planet, knowing the war was lost for reach but the whole team continuing to fight to the last for a lost cause and a chance to save just a few more souls off the planet. But I do think the situations for the Spartan II's and IIIs is way different than those in the Spartan IV program.
I'll give you this, if Spartan IIs were supposed to be ODAs, then Spartan IVs were Rangers. They are both part of the special operations community, but Rangers on average are younger, have less extensive training and are intended to be a larger, more easily fielded force while SFs require more training, more experience and are incredibly more difficult to field.
@@inorite4553 (1) Rangers and Delta aren’t a perfect analogy because Rangers and Delta Force do completely different jobs. (2) If Spartan IVs are Navy SEALs, then Spartan IIs are DEVGRU.
I think that an important theme throughout all of Halo has always been, hidden just under and oft masked by the badassery and heavy metal, a sense of aching beauty and haunting loss. Humanity has lost so much in the conflict, and the S IIs in particular have almost lost their own humanity. "Almost". It's still there, and it shines through sometimes - the two-finger faceplate swipe that conveys a smile, the occasional comforting nudges, the dry humour - "Thought I'd try shooting my way out, mix things up a little." - , reminiscing on that time they stole Mendez's airtanks and camped and cooked calamari for a week at Emerald Cove. It's mentioned Fred was always the one who'd joke and wisecrack the team into better spirits when they were younger, but the war had hardened him, and "something special had been lost". These moments are relatable, precious, and very, very human. I don't think anyone has issues with the Spartan IIs doing these things. It characterises and humanises them on a deep chord. It drives home all the more the pain when each Spartan II goes MIA, or when Reach fell. These are the little things humanity fought for, and sacrificed, to survive and win. This is in stark contrast to the cocky, unprofessional bullwhacking by the S IVs, which is downright crass compared to the deep friendship and quiet resolve we're used to with the S IIs. The connection was real with the IIs, the IVs seem like thugs in comparison. Ironically, the IIs are supposed to be "less" human, yet are written such that they embody true human connection better than the IVs, with real weight to it that adds to the core themes of the series. The IVs' brashness seems shallow and meaningless in comparison.
to steal a line from one of my favourite video game characters and tweak it a little bit... "Children with mjolnir armour, perhaps. but not Spartans." (Kreia from KotOR II, "Children with Lightsabers, perhaps. But not Jedi.")
I feel like many people’s tendency to jump to the Spartan 2s “stoicism and professionalism” is really misplaced, especially when trying to frame them as mythical heroes. What I mean by this is that they aren’t stoic because they have exceptional mastery over their emotions, for their Is, and cross their Ts. They’re stoic because to anyone outside of their small inner circle they are fundamentally incapable of expressing emotion eventually leading to the idea that they are machines. It’s frustrating because while you can certainly have a stoic hero, stoicism isn’t a pre-requisite to being a hero. Look at Johnson, undoubtedly a hero but he’s also emotional, boisterous, and jokes about his sexual conquests, albeit with a bit more charm and swagger but he still does it. When looking at the Spartans in generations they’re all distinctly different because no generation of Spartan is brought up the same, so it makes no sense to compare them as upgrades and downgrades, but to compare them as sideways. Arguably they are anywhere from parallel to tangential in terms of similarities. After all circles and squares share commonalities but are still different shapes. This is really a point of contention that’s going to very from person to person and to try to win out an argument amongst a community is almost pointless because you can approach this from so many angles.
Personally I think the Spartan IV's personalities are fine for normal soldiers, but when you make them veterans of a war that is of extinction level proportions who sign up willingly to become humanities defenders and act like a fucking recruit of a child then yes you done fucked up. Personally I think the Spartan IV's should have been made with a more SGTMAJ Johnson like persona and followed in his character foot step as a badass NCO kinda personality. This would make the Spartan IV's believable and quirky in there own unique ways. Too bad I only saw recruits on the screen.
@@vicemontey4297 Yes, thats my problem. They act like kids, not professional soldiers what they were before. The vast majority were ODST's, professionals.
@@mathiasadderley2988 But being the best of the best, also includes a level of professionalism that the fours as a whole, lack. Soldiers cutting up, and making jokes is completely normal, but NOT when on an operation, and definitely not in front of superior officers. The way they depicted them made them seem as if they were green recruits, who'd never seen combat, and didn't understand military bearing and regulations, while simultaneously telling us they were veteran soldiers, who were leagues better than the other people in their unit/ branch.
@@aaronself2411 Have any of you people played halo reach? I'm genuinely curious. All of these things you're claiming "real" spartans would never do happens ALL THE TIME in that game's campaign.
This is what I’ve been saying since H4 came out. We love the ODSTs and the Marines because they do what they do while being only human. We hate the S-IV’s because they do what they do while being only human.
Man the marines and ODSTs will always have a place in our hearts. I like that halo infinity did show S-IVs as capable warriors, leaders, dedicated to their duty. As the marines still look up to the spartans for leadership and guidance. In some form, like how marines would look at the S-IIIs when they come as back up. Man, each S-IV fought to the death in the game, spartan sorel fought to the death with a screwdriver, that changes how i looked at spartan 4s.
The IIIs were able to do what they did while being superhuman despite being teenagers when they began training. This is the main point people tend to ultimately come down to. Because it means the IVs really have no excuse as they had pretty much the same training as the IIIs.
I think the problem was they were so useless that it made the Spartan IV problem worse when people realized that not only did not like Spartan IV's, but now they die on screen like morons too. So it's more like salt in the wounds to most people at that point. Just rub it in YEAH!
This whole argument can genuinely become a well structured script for a side game that dwells in this philosophical debate from the perspective of a mere man in pursuit of moral perfection. Love your videos
I have to admit this was quite eye opening to me. To be honest, all throughout the video I was asking myself “how would I have written the spartan IVs differently if I was told to write about them?” I came up with two primary answers. One resolves some of the issues I had prior to watching this video in full. While the second I think would help on the perspective side instead and is rather simple. The first response I had was to make the spartan IV program more akin to the alliance’s N7 program in mass effect. I say this because the N7 program did indeed produce arguably better soldiers from individuals already in service disciplining them, but it was also designed to make them leaders/team players as well. For example, I’d like to initially cover how the first test of the N7 program goes (please note I might not remember every detail clearly). Their first test has the N7 candidates placed in a vacuum (all them together) with limited oxygen. You fail if you run out of oxygen, the point of the test is for the candidates to work together to stretch the oxygen out. It is a simple test but in reality it’s probably the biggest, as it’s essentially the last qualifier after they passed all the other requirements that led to their being sent notice of candidacy. To compare, it is akin to the ODSTs and how they’re selected. But the N7s aren’t kept in “N7 squads” they are instead sent back out into the rest of the military as better leaders and soldiers. typically allowed better gear and given the more difficult missions, but still incorporated back into their respective areas of the armed forces. Doing it this way I feel would’ve made the IVs more compelling to me, they aren’t just another section of the military and are instead incorporated into the rest of the military (considering the augmentations probably focusing on ground forces) placing them in leadership roles and displaying similar effective discipline to a standard spartan in the field of battle, but also displaying their human side off the battlefield. I’m not sure if I expressed the above properly, but my point being. They’re more than just soldiers, they’re leaders. My second answer is far less wordy than the first. Simply change the name of the program. Probably seems far too simple, and UNSC or ONI may have wanted to keep the spartan name fully alive to keep morale up and such. But in reality spartans would have gone from the heroes of the unsc to just another military branch. Keep the spartan connections obviously, keep the augmentations and armor, but they don’t mesh very well with what the narrative of a spartan really is. As a story teller I think I’d make a callback to the Orion Project and probably name them something along those lines, either stick to Orion or something related. In world I’d consider numerous titles, ranging from things such as Centurions to Hoplites to keep the more “more than just a soldier” aesthetic they’d probably want to keep with the program, to other more standard designations, IE ODST+ (that last name is a joke, but I hope my point gets across) A third answer could be a potential combo of the two. But I think that’s enough of me writing a random comment. The Spartan IVs for all their flaws are what we’ve got. I do find the idea of writing something about how a standard unsc marine views spartan IVs interesting though… perhaps have one note the flaws they see? Eh, just ideas (haven’t played Infinite’s campaign yet due to money constraints. But if it happens somepoint in it that would be interesting, though I suspect it won’t xD)
The real problem: they're literally odst in flashy power armor. Spartan 2 are walking tanks who were abducted at birth. Spartan 3 are suicide spec ops made of vengeful berserker teens. Spartan 4 are normal odst with SOME augmentation and power ranger suits. Their lore-whack Their power-whack Their design-whack Their recruitment-whack Their attitude-whack Sure, they put a lot of effort into making spartan 4 look good, but it's in all the wrong ways, the best thing we saw from them was literally an anime charge at an army of covenant, which is bullshit. The spartan 4 are nothing but mary sues.
@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva considering how most things were useless when shot at by any covenant weapon I think that point is both valid and invalid. Even plasma pistols do massive damage against literally everything so it only makes sense that their armor isn't that effective against them. It would probably be perfect against most human weapons though considering that's what it was originally designed for. The 2s also wore armor without the shields for years and were still considered gods among men, the energy shields just made them even harder to kill
@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva Spartan II's only started seeing the majority of their casualties towards the later years of the war, and for the majority of the war the Mark IV sets were unshielded. The strength of the Spartan II's comes from their innate intrinsic ability and talent, things like their armour and shielding just increases their survivability.
Ah, yes their recruitment is whack. Is that because they weren't abducted as children? And their lore. Is that whack because it's ODSTs and high rank marines who showed exceptional prowess and valour?
@@dragonweezle4876 The recruitment is really generic and is exceptionally boring for Halo's more mythical tone and the lore is lacklustre due to the fact that there's no classified operations on how they were created. The kids were abducted, but the training from childhood is a thematic implication that they were basically born for that purpose. The abduction part is sort of similar to being chosen by the Gods to become a hero of the Heavens, just way less ethical. The Spartan-IIIs even get the same sort of intrigue, just without the dubious, morally questionable nature of abducting kids to do your dirty work, since they were - on paper - volunteers.
Let's be honest, if they changed the name then all the people whining about them not being "real" Spartans would be whining about how they're replacing the Spartans.
@@addisonwelsh Actually, we would think it awesome that there is a subdivision of Super Soldiers that are backup for the surviving Spartan IIs and IIIs. In Halo CE through Halo 4, we had ODST and Marines backing us up. I would freaking love it if the fireteam reinforcements were a squad of "Hoplites". I have absolutely no idea what made you think that this turn of events would upset the majority of fans.
@@Mikanoes Considering most fans are complaining "there's too many spartans, I don't feel speshul anymore!" I find it to be a rather reasonable assumption. Most of these people aren't making rational arguments, they're complaining about how their fee fees have been hurt in some way or the other.
@@addisonwelsh Are you sure that most actually feel that way? Or are you falling into the age old trap of thinking that the ones who speak the most, and speak loudest, represent the group as a whole? The "loudest in the room" usually just speak for a minority in the whole.
Spartan 2’s we’re Titans, unmatched in strength and power. Spartan 3’s we’re Olympians, powerful in their own right, more numerous, but watered down to make more. Spartan 4’s are Demi-Gods, descending from Titan and Olympian heritage, but with all the follys of man, snd all the pride of a god.
I find it much easier to like the fours when I think of them as the second generation of Orion, rather than Spartans. Viewing them for what they are without an impossible legacy to live up to.
Hard to do when they have MJOLNIR, at least to me. Hard to reconcile them with ODSTs either, because what use do ODSTs have now? Based off Halo 4 & 5 - none. Didn't read the 343i era books yet.
@@Halo_Legend well most of the 3s never actually wore mjolnir, instead being equipped with SPI, but that doesn't make a 3 any less of a Spartan than a 2 (at least in my eyes). The 3s still behave like Spartans, have the abilities of a Spartan and went through Spartan training. So they are Spartans. Likewise, the 2s weren't any less Spartan-like before they received their mjolnir. When blue team kidnapped Watts (hope I spelled his name right) they done it with the behavior and efficiency of a Spartan team. They were already Spartans before the mjolnir.
I find it easier to view them as cocky recruits who just joined a special forces program and want to brag about the medals that other people have earned. The key is recruits and not veterans.
The issue is they would've been better off just being the next gen of ODST. I mean haven't they replaced ODST anyway? Honestly it would've been way cooler imo if they had just uniformly been given Buck style armor and made their new designation be either left ODST or replace the S with an A for assault.
@@argo9721 for that to work 343 needs to write them better. Right now they are just children playing with tools they should never have been given...of course with a few exceptions. Also this is going solely off in-game portrayal since more people do not give a crap about the books than do. No matter how good they are, there will just always be more people who hate reading unfortunately.
@@richardpatterson1694 Ok...this is why I hate 343's idea people. Nobody though completely droping ODST's from campaign might give the impression IV's are just replacing them? I mean it just helps unfairly cheapen both factions more...
@@Stealth_Gamer92 I think people would be more upset that the odsts one of the best things in halo would get dropped there still in the books and comics just not in 4 and 5
I think it’s amazing how Chief treats every soldier, Spartan or not. The way he respects the dead during the intro of Infinite, the way he mourns for his Spartan IV brethren throughout the events of Infinite as well, the way he complimented Marvin’s journey as “One Helluva Soldier.” I feel like he embodies the very aspect of Humanity. Or at least a true to life War Hero. I can only imagine how he’d react if he had to ever witness a Spartan Flood, or even the idea that a fellow Spartan had fallen to the flood. Definitely a fate far worse than death. 😔
I’m still optimistic that Spartan-IV’s are gonna be able to get some true respect one day. Like Spartan Vale for one, she studied Sanghelli language so well that she could compete with Dr. Halsey in terms of comprehension.
@@argo9721 According to Halo lore, Olympia Vale was born around 2536 so she’s around 22 years old in 2558. But her Mocap/Voice Actor (Laura Bailey) is around her late 30’s to mid 40’s, I believe.
Buck’s still more “demigod” quality. While he still went through much turmoil and has a lot of experience, his nest was still feathered from the same birth as what makes one a traditional human. IMO, if a II is 20 times greater than a human, a very hardy IV, with very extensive augmentations, could probably come to around a factor of 12 - at most. for the very sake of growing up normally
You mean most of the marines and soldiers YOU fought along side during halo 123 and reach those who lost worlds and families to the covenant. Those soldiers are now becoming strong enough to fight back better than ever and protect what they love. And Youre shitting on them.
@@haramberoth117 It’s more to do with the fact they subvert the learning process. Spartans were taken as children because it transformed their outlook on life from the get-go.. expecting the same from normal adults is fickle. Also, they are not humble enough for their stature. They shouldn’t be so cocky that they’re the top, it makes them unlikable because it essentially is them mocking what we knew of Spartans towards us.
@@yellowhoodie5299 its REALISTIC. Hell the us military act like this WITHOUT power armor lol its how humans act i have no issue with the S4 they are Normal humans with augments and armor. They need time to grow into being Spartans they're still im the "holy shit did you see that!" Phase nobody is giving them a chance because THey aren't the same as kidnapped orphans who only knew war and death. If you gave a socom soldier augments and power armor YOU BEST BELIEVE THEYD ENJOY THE FUCK out of it but once the luster ends and the honeymoon is over things change and its no longer "cool" its war abd it settles in. Imagine hating a group of people because they're human.
I love this video. It made me think a lot about who I was and who I am right now. One of my heroes was Avery Johnson, I wanted to be a good soldier like him, and I was for a time. At least I was happy with where I was. But I lost that spark and feel lost. I’ve been playing halo again recently to try to remember what it was that pushed me to work out and be disciplined and stoic. It’s in my reach and I think your video helped me out a lot
I mean, in my point of view someone with the ethics and morality Steve had is way more likely to be a IV. "Not the perfect soldier, but a good man" and all that.
@@henriquechagas7017 True with the ethics and morality. But I think his mannerisms, how his character is built otherwise and his mindset, I feel that he’d be the other side of the same coin of being a Spartan 1-3, _only_ due to his ethics and morality. Two sides, same coin. Moreso kinder, easier-going Spartans like Kurt or Jorge.
@@legendarymasterchief7620 I guess I could see it, but at least for me Spartans are more mission focused than Cap. I don't know, it just doesn't feel right if Steve was kidnapped and made into a hero. For me he's either a III or a IV, just cause I think the decision to be a hero should be voluntary for his story to work. But maybe to keep that old school vibe he's a III lost in a ship or something. I would say then Bucky's a IV captured by the Covenant and Sam is just an ODST
My main issue with the Spartan IV's comes from looking at them from a historical point of view. The UNSC is creating a warrior caste that surpasses regular humans in terms of physical and mental abilities but without the indoctrination from childhood like the 2's this caste won't have such great loyalty to the UNSC. Unless the Spartans have some specific reason to be loyal to the government like social status or special privileges than they become the biggest threat to internal stability. Just imagine the warlordism of Warring States Japan and China or Early Medieval Europe but on a galactic level. Its not too hard to eventually see communities of Spartans developing which have more interest in claiming their own piece of the pie than keeping the UNSC together.
"Our job as soldiers, is to protect humanity." Those are the words of someone who views himself as an instrument. Not a person. Chief is their leader. And he's been indoctrinated. Frederick is number 2. And he's by the book. The IIs were lead by the ones who bought into the idea of the UNSC the most. Whether by design or coincidence.
I think the Spartan IV’s are a reasonable direction the Spartans would go. They would mass produce the armors and get as many augmented soldiers as possible. I think what could make them better would be to partner some groups up surviving Spartan 2 and 3s. That way we could see them comparatively and that some Spartan 4s may look to them for guidance. Considering the older Spartans would have more respect than the upcoming 4s. Some 4s may humble themselves. I think we see that with Thorn, but not executed well.
@@TheClassicDoomGuy I mean, Musa more so (a S2 washout). All we’ve really seen Jun do is recruit people for the program. I’m talking more so talking in the field combat. That would be nice to see.
(Halo Nightfall spoiler ahead) If I remember correctly, in Nightfall they were pulling straws, who will be left behind and detonate the nuke. Everyone, including Locke, were playing along and tried to survive, but Randall, who were a Spartan II, faked it, so he made sure, that he will be left to detonate the bomb. Randall made that sacrifice... (I´m not 100% sure, I might forget, if there was a reason why Locke had to survive, besides the obvious reason of Halo 5 and so... xD)
Very well made. I always wondered if we had been introduced to them in a different way, with a more reverent Spartan IV, if our collective opinion would have been different. First impressions are everything.
This is Halo’s perfect parallel for defining the problems of being Captain America when you’re not Steve Rodgers, be they good men like Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes or perfect soldiers like Isaiah Bradley and John Walker.
No it's not. The Spartan 2s have no ideals they fight for, no convictions and no ambitions for what they do aside from their indoctrination. What made Steve a hero was that he was a good man before he became Captain America. He was kind, generous and put others before himself. Even without the super soldier serum Steve Rogers would be a good man. John was raised inside of the Spartan program since childhood. he has never known anything aside from being a weapon. All of his values were brainwashed into him and we know nothing of who he would have been without the Spartan program.
Not exactly referencing the overall individual perspective, but the public’s: Much as how Steve popped up as the iconic image of America’s finest super soldier and the peak of mankind’s physical potential, so too occurred with the Master Chief and the other Spartan II’s, being idolized as, what Halsey categorized them, “our destiny as a species.” At the same time, both Steve and Chief faced augmentations that could’ve and even should’ve killed them. Looking back now, the Spartan III’s can be better compared to those like Isaiah or even Bucky, in terms of their ops being even more classified than what their predecessors held to the public, with the public either unable to tell the difference or information on them being outright withheld to cover up their less-than-ethical works from seeping out. Then comes after the great conflicts on both sides, where it’s now more possibly and accessible to create super soldiers like on an assembly line and with less risks physical, but now come the consequences mentally with a new Captain America like John Walker or new Spartan IV’s like Scruggs, Mickey, or even Demarco, that while having the higher chances of surviving and adapting to the updated augmentations, must now deal with always being in the shadow of those who upheld the mantle of legends among the public eyes and fulfill an example to meet the expectations that come with the perks of being called a Spartan or Cap, oftentimes leading some to break down under the pressure and fail to live up to their names more so psychologically.
The problem is that the Halo universe is trying to make the Spartan IV's into the Spartan II's with the mentality of a 5 year old. It's not the personalities are bad, but the actions sure are. They cannot make a fucking action that is remotely human because everything about them is so human that it's not. By trying to make the Spartan IV's likeable they shoe horned the personalities, comments and every other tom foolery into situations that do not warrant it and frankly make it more awkward. They are the black sheep of the Spartan program because they like to eat dirt and can't stop talking about how good the dirt is. It's almost like if they just shut it for once second they would be accepted as a new grade of Spartan soldiers and not just dirt eating egomaniacs whose only good during the human-covenant war was denying trees to the covenant that doesn't even use trees as a resource. This is the difference in writing and understanding of organizations. The Spartan II's and III's act like a special force even if silent and awkward at times. The Spartan IV's act like a fucking brick that won't shut up as to not give your position away because, get this, they are humans. Yeah that explains why they can't shut up because humans are incapable closing there mouth and thinking with their brains. Gosh if only real special forces existed in real life that did could shut their mouths and keep there heads in the game for the good of everybody.
@@onslaughtization The public perception of the 4s is that they're super soldier badasses. Same as the 2s and 3s. The only difference on camera is that the 4s wear something nice to their award ceremonies. John is also not personable, at all. In fact he never did any kind of public works that captain America does. He doesn't go to veteran's hospitals or work with counselors to get vets help. Chief's public image is wholly manufactured by ONI, as the man himself has never been seen in public outside of combat. Mickey and Zane are classified top secret as well, so nobody knows about them
I always wanted some sort of Halo media that delved deep into what makes a Spartan through the perspective of a team of IVs and a team of IIs that work together on occasion
I feel like the Spartan-IVs should have been part of the Project: JAVELIN that Halsey mentions in her journal. That way they could still be super soldiers, but without messing with the legacy of the previous Spartan generations. It could also create an interesting rivalry between the two programs.
Well I am pretty sure if they were part of Project: JAVELIN they would still fuck it up because remember, they are war veterans pretending to be recruits or maybe they are just as dumb as recruits? I don't know either way they would still screem super soldier at the top of their lungs and be nothing more than recruits from boot camp. Pathetic.
@@vicemontey4297 You've never been in the military, have you? The S-4's are way tamer than any military unit I've heard of, especially special forces units.
Why is everyone complaining about IVs? Their personality fits what they are. ODSTs with steroids and heavy armor. What they say and do is literally the same as the ODST troopers in Halo 3: ODST
Poor group to represent tbh. Most here would probably use their new abilities about as irresponsibly as the Majestic... scratch that, it would be worse
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
I think spartan Locke deserves more credit, yea he’s a totally brand new protagonist and that can be a little intimidating to some, which causes them to find every little thing to throw hate at him.. who knows, maybe he can be one of chiefs greatest Ally, maybe he’s just as hyper lethal as n6 . Maybe an actual “hunt the truth” story might start as a stand-alone or dlc or whatever whatever whatever. I hope he’s in infinite so we could learn and see more
Locke is a true Spartan that shredded aliens, and swapped hands with the Chief busting hes visor. If people don't like his character that's there understandable opinion but the character is a confirmed bad@$$.
My perception of this is that the spartan 2s were the perfect warrior. They fought for the causes of the unsc and nothing more. No ego, no pride involved. Spartan 3s is where they began to fault. Spartans like Emile are an example because he was a sadist to his enemies. While others still embodied the perfect warrior. While the 4s, more embodied the faults of a warrior.
We as a people we are in a perpetual state of “getting there”. Always striving. Being more today than we were yesterday. That will never not be the case so as long as we continue we will be all that we want to be. ❤️❤️ beautiful stuff 00
The spartan IV program is mostly an PR program to get away from the ghastly history of Spartan II's and III's. That's it. Plain and simple. It's a marketing rebrand so that they wouldn't have to abrandon all the science progress made with the spartans augments. Even the fuckups are ideal to have because then people won't call the Spartan IV's "Windup toy soldiers" and ONI can point that they weren't brainwashed or anything because the same mistakes that happen in regular soldiers, also happen in Spartan IV's. You aren't supposed to like all the Spartan IV's by default. It's designed that way.
Not liking them all is a good thing, but when your mistakes are so brazen that regular basic soldiers from any military would not do it even if they were not part of infantry then you have a problem with the Spartan IV's. They are below average soldiers (non-infantry included). You cannot convince me that they are the best of the best no matter how many times you say it when they make below basic mistakes. What's next you don't know how to throw a grenade?
One thing most people don't take into account is that being selected for the Spartan IV isn't exactly easy as you would eighth have to have great connections in the UNSC Armed Forces, Have served a long distinguished career in the UNSC, Be at the top of your military occupational specialty and field of expertise compared to your peers, Have demonstrated innate talent in combat (For none veterans), Have special characteristics such as keen insight, high athleticism, higher than average battlefield awareness and intellect compared to others in your position. Only once you fulfill those requirements will you possibly have a chance of being selected for the program. You have to be that 1 in a over a million soldiers whose talents and service are deemed of high enough demand to be offered a chance to join. The odds of being selected using such methods from millions of soldiers across different branches of the UNSC armed forces is 0.001%.
I love the Spartan IVs because of the idea that Spartan IIs and IIIs will grow too old one day, may not be soon but one day and the S.4 Program seems modular enough to go on long enough with positive reception by the public in the Halo Universe.
@Insert Name Here that's a interesting idea but remember they routinely cryo freeze non-essential crew members during slipspace and add up that time and while chronology they may be older, biologically that number may be reduced remember the human-covenant war lasted twenty-eight years and Spartan 117 is participated in the entire War from begining to end from 15 years old to approximately 40 years old yet moves unlike his age would imply. and while I believe some Spartan IV's can grow into True Spartans others Don't and Wont live up to the Standard of Spartan's Code Of Conduct on and off the Field of Combat but that's just my opinion
@@abellator7560 Most civilians won't see a Spartan, but they will have hope because there are Spartans out there. That is why they made the S3 suicide troops so they could continue utilizing the S2s for hope while sacrificing cost efficient S3s. S4s are now cost effective and can perform many feats of their own, maybe not on S2 level but enough that with numbers they can still carry the torch of hope.
The Spartan II/III's have a long way to go before they are too old to fight, Johnson a Spartan I with nowhere near as extensive augmentations was still fighting at 78 years old and if he hadn't been killed during Halo 3 he would still be on active duty. However many of the remaining Spartan II/III's may choose to retire from active duty.
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality. Ah yes we have the capabilities to ethically produce more Spartans than before but let's not utilize this so a select few can feel special.🙃
@@shangothunder1055 S-IV's are a mixed bag, Anthony Madsen from Fireteam Majestic literally became a S-IV because he had family connections, i.e. nepotism. In theory S-IV's are recruited from the best of the best, but not guaranteed.
The spartan 2s and 3s can be in some way classified more as weapons than soldiers. Humanity near enough stripped from them and employed purely as a means to an end. The spartan 4s are more comparable to soldiers, humans given the means to fight without sacrificing that humanity.
I like the 4’s in concept, but I feel as though they shoulda gone under a different classification of augmented soldier, similar to the Orion candidates, also kinda small little thing but I always liked how the 2s and 3s were just barely humanized enough to keep them as something we as humans can look up to, like the little swipe across the visor that Spartan 2s do to signify an outburst of joy is something which I think is perfect writing
With the leaked information on new Spartan IVs being in Infinite I feel like there's going to be more emphasis on making them more professional and stoic. The Halo 4 Spartans accompanying Lasky and Palmer were silent individuals. Those are what I'd want out of the Spartan IVs. What people still fail to realize though is that Spartan IVs are by-and-large volunteers from the various branches/organizations of the UNSC. They were Marines/ODSTs/troopers/sailors/etc. before ever becoming a supersoldier. The hypocrisy is as simple as saying Spartan IVs are not true Spartans because they are too much like regular people. Well ODSTs are elite, non-enhanced operatives who still crack jokes and act like they're apart of a fraternity. The Marines kick ass across the Milky Way yet they are all pretty normal. I hate to say this but Spartan IIIs get so much love because they're 'unconventional' and were the focus of Reach. Which is almost every current Halo fan's starting game. It's a disgrace honestly. Lore-wise the IIIs were hated, cheap alternatives, and expendable. So how's that different from the IVs? It's hardly NOT. The only difference is IVs are more relatable and prone to human error. Even then the two generations are insanely similar. IVs just get more hate because of the lack of character building, the disdain for 343's changes, and the fact that pretty much anybody can be a Spartan now. So the hypocrisy hurts me mentally. There's a LOT 343 can do to improve them and I truly think they will. But overall the only people who have real issues with the IVs have issues with most things other than them and they just so happen to be apart of the current era that people hate. So bring on the IVs! Hell, give us old IVs back like Thorne! Just do them justice and bring the community together.
And yet how do they treat him? They look at him as the young view the old. A relic that they were to replace, he treats them as equals and they just wish him to retire already so that one can take his place.
@@jacklau2558 Literally the only person who has that view is that asshole Del Rio. The IV's worship the ground John walks on. Even Osiris had massive respect for him when they were told they had to bring him back by force if necessary.
In halo infinite the spartan iv's seem to have been humbled, become more deliberate and have had a decent amount of training so far. This might bring them closer to the position outside of mankind a superhero holds.
If you are referring to the Tutorial cutscene which inspires the narrator, then yeah. But it also makes sense in lore. Cortana showed up and kicked humanities ass. All that spartan pride and ego just got a thorough beating. And as far as they know they just lost a whole bunch of their number and the Chief. They were brought low. Their whole outlook on what they are and what they can do was shattered. Its why the message of Hope was brought up so much. Its why the cutscene portrays its spartans as SPARTANS. The stoic heroes, the ones who will engage the enemy and take the hits because its what they are there to do. That particular cutscene has done more for the Spartan 4's than Halo 4 and 5 have done combined when it comes to bringing them that little bit of "Its going to be alright, a Spartan is here."
To me Spartan 4’s just feel like augmented Marines, strong and capable in their own right. But in comparison to the previous two generations of Spartans, the Spartan 4’s are *a downgrade.*
eh to me spartan 4's were made after the human covenant war which is why many people dont see them as heroes for not fighting hordes of covenant forces and dying in battle.
It's definitely not because they're human. Like the first time Fire Team Crimson(??? I can never remember their names) saw Palmer. The one dummy immediately starts hitting on her. I can tell you right now, that in professional units this would be unacceptable. The attitude he displays would probably get him drummed out or peered out if he was going through the SF pipeline. It's because they have the behavioral traits of a new troop instead of hardened combat veterans that need to be the highest skill and moral character to receive augmentations that give them immense physical power over their fellow man.
My main problem is they are trying to use them to help replace all which Bungie made. Notice that we haven't seen ODSTs in a while, but SIV using drop pods
This analysis is great it encapsulates my quarrels with the spartan 4's perfectly. Since day one my issue with thr spartan 4's was never their rowdyness it was that they were introduced as a kid freindly replacement for the gritty 2's and 3's who forcible sacraficed everything, their very humanity and human life to become the ultimate unrelenting weapons. Hope for those they shield and demons for those who don't yield.
On the topic, I feel inclined to make a comment about how much the fanbase's perception can change their objective view of a situation. Who here watches MCU films? Yeah, I know, they're not perfect, but I find Tony Stark to be an excellent point of comparison here. The man built himself a suit of armor likely far more powerful than even MJOLNIR, and used it to pull off some pretty cool stunts, right? Well, his portrayal is often of a flawed person, but he was made relatable by having him fall upwards from a morally dubious war profiteer into a redeemed and fundamentally noble soul who struggled constantly with his baser instincts to do better and to leave the world better than he found it. And...
...he failed, to be honest. The man was a liability from the start, almost to the finish. He created almost all of his own worst enemies. His haphazard handling of his suit's own technology and of other superheroes and supervillains put people at risk needlessly. He even ended up being the catalyst that led to the destruction of a team comprised of Earth's other great heroes. His laundry list of personality flaws, thrown in at the start as a means of making him charming and likable also ended up being his greatest liability. As a superhero, he would be a failure if not for his final act, where he, more through numbers of lives saved than through merits we could have expected to last had he survived, redeemed himself, since bringing back half the universe trumps any comparatively small missteps made along the way. I have a bit of a theory that the reason Dr. Strange's extremely and unnecessarily convoluted plan to beat Thanos wasn't truly the only way to beat him, but it was the only future the universe would be safe from both Thanos _and_ Stark. Harsh, but tell me it doesn't make sense from that perspective.
And yet, people still adore Stark, and they hate the Spartan-IVs. Why? Well, part of it's context, part of it's writing, and part of it is prior expectations. Tony Stark is the godfather of the MCU. He was there before anyone else was. His origin story is what came to define the entire franchise. He drew in a specific demographic of people who enjoyed his portrayal as a snide, narcissistic, reckless, but fundamentally well-intentioned man playing with arguably far too much power for his own good. But Halo was introduced to us with people more akin to Steve Rogers. Professional, quiet, and unshakable, with morals that, while not at DC superhero levels of ideal, are still very strong, despite a very dubious origin story. Next to Superman or even Captain America, suddenly having "Tony Stark" shoved on us might be a bit jarring and given prior expectations, we might find we hate him the way MCU fans hate Captain Marvel for being what is objectively a very capable and powerful superhero with a fairly solid grasp of what she needs to do, but one who doesn't have an interesting or likable personality to go along with it.
The Spartan-IVs have personality, but it doesn't fit the context well. They are often portrayed as grotesquely unprofessional compared to any of the prior generations, and worse, this is often a liability. And I believe that a handful of early mistakes have forever colored fan perception of the entire unit. Many S-IVs _are_ highly professional, capable soldiers in their own right. No, they aren't a match for past generations, but they're cold, stoic, focused, and preternaturally deadly, much like their predecessors. Many of the S-IVs seen in the base Halo 4 campaign, and Fireteam Osiris come to mind. But our first named S-IV characters are all unprofessional, undisciplined, and nowhere near as competent as they should be in combat situations. Despite having a distinguished service record and a great deal of respect for her fellow servicemembers (most of the time), Palmer is not a good leader, nor is she particularly likable. Worse, her class of S-IVs was the first, and they didn't conduct themselves appropriately then, either. They actually did so badly in the immediate post-augmentation period that Jun and Musa, a III and II, respectively, chewed them out for their shortcomings. And the less said about the extreme, at times almost Red vs. Blue levels of immaturity half of Fireteam Majestic displayed during the Requiem campaign, or in subsequent operations, the better.
My father used to tell me, "First impressions are _lasting_ impressions." And he's completely correct here. I believe that no matter what legitimate merits S-IVs have, it will be nearly impossible to make people _like_ them now because every time they see a capable, professional, and focused Spartan like, for instance, Jameson Locke, a man who even Thel 'Vadam, an extremely strict judge of character and fighting prowess, deemed worthy of respect, even hinting that he reminded him of _the_ Spartan, John-117, enough to perhaps even consider him a _peer_ to the man, they will always look at him and see Paul DeMarco. Or Anthony Madsen. Or Carlo Hoya. I believe Locke is an example of an S-IV who was selected and trained based on lessons learned from the failings of prior S-IVs. Stricter psychological screening is the most important factor. It's also possible that their enhancements and armor are more advanced, given the crazy stunts they pulled off relative to known named S-IVs in the Requiem campaign. They fight more like supersoldiers. Majestic fought more like regular troops with enhanced strength and coordination, but with poor discipline. They certainly come off as more professional than ODSTs have historically been portrayed.
Which brings me to the ODSTs, as a point of comparison. People adore them. Some of the most beloved characters in the franchise are ODSTs. Buck, Johnson, and comparatively minor characters like Stacker and the other members of Alpha-Nine. And yet, were you to hold them to the same standards as Spartans, you would find them quite lacking. (Indeed, they arguably don't even hold up to the standards imposed on real-world special operations personnel at times. They are far too prone to fighting one another or other UNSC servicemembers, for example.) Even Johnson is far too talkative and loud, and too ready to crack jokes or let his emotions get the better of him in the field to stand with S-IIs or even the relatively undisciplined S-IIIs, were he to be augmented to comparable levels. But they're human, like 00 said. They _aren't_ held to those standards, so people can appreciate their relative merits for what they are. It's all about expectations. Spartan-IVs are _not_ true successors to Spartan-IIs or IIIs...and that's okay. Despite how they're played up as "replacements" for them in the very introduction to Halo 4, they're a different breed of soldier for a different and _wildly_ misunderstood role. As I've said many times before, S-IIs are advanced prototypes with no expense spared in their training and their equipment. S-IIIs are arguably a limited production run of more cost-effective personnel, to be created and expended in times of extraordinary crisis. Both of them did their fairly limited jobs well. Spartan-IVs are the production model, so to speak.
They aren't as capable, but they don't have to be. They just have to be supersoldiers, able to be created in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the cost, and fielded in far greater numbers to handle jobs which would otherwise require one of the precious few remaining S-IIs or S-IIIs who survived the war. If they can do the vast majority of the work their predecessors can, that's enough. It just means the living legends can be where they're needed most. S-IVs make a _lot_ of military sense from a logistical standpoint. Not many laymen understand how damned _important_ making something logistically viable is for any military organization. They don't necessarily _care_ that their troops are "the best," they want their troops to be as good as they possibly can while still being _sustainable_ with the available supply lines. As good as they are, past Spartan generations are _not_ as cost-effective as their all-volunteer "successors." S-IVs routinely do about as much damage to Covenant, Innie, and Promethean assets, even if more of them die, and more of them make mistakes. On a macroscale, this is an acceptable tradeoff. Ships still get blown up, projects still get sabotaged, HVTs still get captured or killed, enemy offensives get blunted at minimal cost and risk to UNSC forces, and regular troops and the UEG's public still get to look up to superhuman killing machines in powered armor.
Holy excellent comment there my dude
sorry on focusing on this little detail, but spartans > iron man
A really good read, I always give old unloved cars a chance, I think the Austin Allegro is a good car, many do not. I feel that it is perfectly capable of filling the brief of what a car should do, even if it isn't perfect. I think it is the same with the S-IVs, while no one is saying they are rubbish (well not many are saying) It is true they shouldn't be held to unfair standards of traumatised orphans or brainwashed children turned into slaughter machines. Indeed, I think their humanity should be celebrated, as they show that you can be extraordinary, and grounded, a message that is timeless in its importance
@@spacemichael1177 the nanotech suit is definitely better than mjolnir imo, ignoring the pilot inside the suit
@@benhooper1956 I'm not really that knowledgeable about cars, but if I had to make a rough comparison, S-IVs are like the Tesla Model S versus something like a Bugatti Chiron standing in for S-IIs. Both are supercars, but one costs a _hell_ of a lot less and sports newer technology with a lot of potential once it's developed further. And like you said, S-IVs are human. A Model S is an attainable goal for a middle-class worker, whereas a Chiron is reserved for the guy who owns a few mansions. We might hold S-IIs to a high standard and think of them as the future of humanity, but they were created to defend the humanity of the here-and-now first and foremost. That _has_ to mean it has value, too. And, like you said, their creation process is essentially "guilt-free." I suppose, if I wanted to make certain motorists roll their eyes, the Model S is greener than a car with sixteen cylinders and a mere 11 miles per gallon in-city. Newer tech _eventually_ makes things easier, safer, and more efficient. That's not _always_ true, but it's the general trend throughout history. End of the day, both cars will turn heads and get you laid, so...
Gabriel Thorne embodied what a Spartan IV should be in my opinion. Thoughtful and stoic, but perhaps more human than previous generations. Even though Halsey was mostly dismissive of the IVs, she appeared to recognize that Thorne came closer to the ideals of the original program more than his peers. Thorne was one of the few people who treated her with respect, knocking on the door of her quarters and politely requesting her to join him instead of just barging in like others did. In combat, Thorne has showed creativity and innovation by hijacking a banshee and using Glassman’s explosive vest to cover their escape.
Locke might’ve fitted into this category if it wasn’t for... *that game* ...
Yeah and in the comics and expanded material there are others that show this kind of attitude, which is a shame because in the games it's the complete opposite mostly.
I can understand the hostility some of the 4's had for Halsey. It must have been a hell of a shock to discover how the Spartans were created, especially with many of them likely having kids themselves.
@@ryank5424 Definitely. Explains why they had Spartan Thorne guarding her while in full Mjolnir. Very possible that some of the crew or even other Spartans might have attempted to harm or kill her because her methods were so unethical.
Guarding her in full armor could also have been about not underestimating her. Never occurred to me that she could be in danger from the crew.
I love the spartan IVs conceptually. The problem is how 343 presents them. It's said that only the best of the best are allowed to become spartan ivs and many of them were former ODST's but they are constantly being depicted as frat boys that think their shit don't stink. They should be presented as elite tier 1 operator type soldiers not cocky trust fund kids who's parents just bought them a yacht.
More captain price less shitty frat boy
Pretty much
You hit the nail right on the head.
More ODST like. Silent professionals who drop feet first into hell.
shoulda had rookie from Halo 3: ODST become Spartan IV and play as him in Halo 5. But boy, poor rookie.
For me this was a perfect breakdown of the differences. I love Buck, Vale and Palmer as Spartans, but as he Buck said "we are demi gods compared to the previous Titans and actual Gods of Spartan II & III's.
When did he say that?
@@dovahkiin7253 It's from the book, Halo: New Blood
@@keltonblack3492 Buck even states in that book that while watching the fight between Locke and John that it was clearly one-sided and that Locke "was handed his own ass"
He also got the order right. The IIs' augmentations are inferior to that of the IIIs' if I remember correctly.
@@midgetydeath other the way around. The Spartan twos only had maybe a few hundred survive the full process whereas the Spartan threes had several companies of a couple hundred but they were shorter and a little weaker than spartan twos. Spartan threes were a mass production stopgap. Spartan fours are supposed to be the best of all the great augmentations of the twos and the reproduceability of the 3s
“Sir how did you do it? Those civilians said you got them out of the city, past an army of covenant, sir. How?”
“It was the mission, corporal.”
This from one of the books? It's been a while since I read some of them.
@@EnglishTomm Halo: The Fall of Reach novel, Battle of Sigma Octanus-IV, Post battle debrief by ONI and HighCom
This quote comes before Chief gets Mk.V, it’s an interaction between MCPO-117 and a surviving UNSCMC Corporal.
@@tyvernoverlord5363 thank you dude. I will read that again soon 👍
@@EnglishTomm make sure you do brother, its a bit corny but oh boy does it have some of the best lore in the franchise. Enjoy :)
@@hounsdjentlow3074 Bruh my fave so far (or even my favourite pleasure book ever). Eric Nylund just fits so well with my image of a perfect militaristic sci fi. Just like Gombrowicz mirrors my outlook on social interactions (there must be English translations of his works, seriously read it, you might find a gate to another dimention of perception with them or you might not get them at all).
Kinda remindes me of how Buck once said that the IIs were like the Greek Titans, the IIIs the Gods, and the IVs Demigods. Even in cannon the IIs & IIIs were larger than life beings who you could almost never compare up to.
Thats one thing I like about the "New Blood" book as how they go into the UNSC expectations for the IVs and how they aren't held to the same standards as the IIs & IIIs.
I like how comparing the S-IIIs to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece makes them both less powerful and superior to the S-IIs (the Titans), very apropos considering most S-IIIs were given SPI armor, which doesn't boost their abilities like Mjolnir did for the S-IIs. However, some S-llls were given Mjolnir, and with that and their better training could make their feats even more unreal. And as we all know, the Greek gods and goddesses were the ones who defeated the mighty Titans.
If the Spartan IV's are to be demigods then they must be some inbred face strapped backward ass demigods cause they definitely fight like the demigods of dirt eating. Heck who knows they might just be a full blow Titan in that category as the only Spartan program to reach it.
@@waluigisilver7773 Wrongish.
The gods defeated the tyrannical titans with the help of OTHER TITANS. titans still ruled alongside the new gods and were in Olympus, and ect.
A good example was Atlas, Helion, prometheus to name a few. It was the titans in general who helped Zeus, Posiden, and hades imprison their father cronos.
Another fact. Zeus, posiden and hades had equal sway and pull. They ruled jointly. The only reason Zeus is called king of the gods is because most of the gods resided in Olympus. Mostly because they were his offspring, or decided to stay in Olympus after the defeat of cronos. Zeus rules the skies.
Posiden ruled the earth and seas. The one closest to mortals. Usually the one meddling in the affairs, good or bad.
Hades ruled the underworld , tarturus, and Elysium for mortals. He eventually gave elysium to persephone as a wedding gift. (So hell, ultra hell and heaven.)Only exceptional beings or demigods were given access to outside these realms. Like being a servant to hades.. live in olynpus.. be in Atlantis ect ect.
The strongest of the bunch was hades. He could leech power, life essence from any being and give it. He also was fortune, luck and guardian of Tarturus to make sure cronos and the other titans never escaped. People often mistake him for the god of death, which is wrong too. That is Thanatos.
Don't get anybody knowing about the S3s. If Spartans were top secret, the 3s were beyond that. Basically made two generations that both got massacred at single events each. Then the 3rd generation didn't even get a chance to make it off planet. Plus compared to 2s they were severely cut down in terms of.power. The 4s are probably stronger. The 3s were strength in numbers and cheapness.
"Do you think the Spartans lack of basic humanity helped?" Yes
"Do you believe the Master Chief succeeded because he was, at his core, broken?" Yes
Yeah but that left chief almost physically incapable of understanding normal human emotions such as cowardice or fear seeing as how he worked with fearless soldiers and Spartans, when he met Echo-216 you can see him being almost weirded out by the pilots want for self preservation and fear. It then took time for him to truly grasp again what he was fighting for and again understanding natural human emotions and fears outside a combat setting.
What I’m saying is chief was bred to be an almost emotionless fighting machine which left him in a state of confusion with how normal people react. Leaving him to be socially isolated and incapable of full leadership and interaction with anyone outside the spartan program or any executive leadership role in the UNSC - bar some exemptions.
@@ProtocolAbyss Oh, I know, but the result in the field can't be denied. Chief may lost his ability to act like a regular person, but he's still tbe greatest soldier the UNSC ever had.
Besides, it wasn't that bad, the guy wasn't nearly as much of a machine as the last 3 games imply.
@@voicingdragoon7 He most certainly was human. He cracked jokes, was sarcastic, consoled people when they were anxious. He was certainly awkward but no doubt he was human
@@EnigmaEnginseer Less so than most other people. He's not exactly the most social person ever. His jokes and sarcasm was fairly minimal, especially out in the field where he spent most of his time. Think it was mostly the social aspect they meant by human.
Chief didn't really have family, his colleagues were family to him, of course, but nobody that he would need to go home to once his fighting was over. For Chief it was his soldiers and the mission, nothing else that held him back
@@ProtocolAbyss Except he has humanity in spades in the books. The ONLY Spartan-II EVER marked KIA, was his best friend Samuel. I'm pretty sure it's late in book 3 or not even until book 4 were he finally switches Sam's official status to MIA, because "Spartans never die. They're legends." He loves Blue Team like siblings, Halsey like a mother, and Cortana like someone irreplaceable. (Which is also shown in the Bungie games, at least) He's somewhat emotionally constipated, like Batman... but he loves his family... like Batman. I really don't think 343 truly understood any of the characters. I mean, look at the travesty that was the streaming series. Holy F. Look what they did to Cortana. And then they chickened out and tried to have their cake and eat it, too, by giving you back Cortana, but she was lobotomized. She's so derpy. I hate everything they did.
The issue with them is that they carry the title of SPARTAN, but they don't carry the SPIRIT of a Spartan. Some do, but most don't
True
If they named them *ANYTHING* other than SPARTAN, I would have zero qualms with them
@@D00dman Ooooooh I agree with you on that
@@D00dman Orion 2s
@@D00dman yeah that’s not really the main problem. The main problem is that they’re awfully witten
To borrow a quote from another franchise " Monster is a relative term. To a canary, a cat is a monster. We are just used to being the cat."
Spartan augmentations wil eventually become the norm for mainstream Humanity. When that happens it'll be a whole new ball game. The standard will have to be.....I dont know. But Im eager to find out.
Sorry bro, could you remind me where this reference is from?
@@hounsdjentlow3074 It's a quote by Henry Wu from Jurassic World (2015).
@@kalibruh1007 thank you
@@kalibruh1007 huh I thought it was a paraphrasing of Terry Goodkind.
I always saw S2’s as legends of old brought into reality. True one-man armies that could carry an entire battle on their shoulders.
I view S3’s as grittier and more industrial having had corners cut since the S2’s and thus they operated much more grounded and darkly. Almost like an unseen death, they remind me of real life special forces, more comfortable with being stealthy or unconventional. Their look is what makes them my favorite.
S4’s remind me of if we took 18 year old marines and made them better than ODST’s. They aren’t legends like the S2’s and they aren’t a hidden death like S3’s, they’re just… ODST’s but better. They don’t really have a thing. It’s like if Titanfall Pilots never had Titans.
I agree with you. They fail like ODST's would on some missions, but it's rare to hear about how a Spartan II or a Spartan III failed a mission. They may die to get it done, but they get it done. I would like to propose a different perspective though; I personally think that Spartan IV's "thing" as you put it, is that you can make them easier. It's a more streamline process with little to no red-tape. It's like they traded the ability to make the occasional Thor for the ability to make a metric fuck-ton of Batman's; Sure, not the same, but I wouldn't count an army of Batmen out.
@@MrHawkelement The end of your reply is very we;; said and is also hilarious. Happy New Year you two.
As an actual Marine, the frat boy energy definitely does not go away while you're in the Corps. I think the Spartan IVs are perfectly indicative of the life of our currently younger service members in the Corps. However, as Marines, they should step up to the plate when it's time - but 343 has yet to make them as such, and just like real life, Marines post Iraq/Afghanistan have yet to see war.
@E115 well, it fits perfectly in line with the real life decline of military might. 80 years ago, during world war 2, nothing seemed more promising than the Worldwide use of Nuclear Power, both for civil growth and Military Expansion. Once a Nuclear bomb was dropped on someone though, everyone realized how horrific such a tactic would play out on a grand scale, and that Nuclear Power is not something to mess around with.
.
Similarly, the UNSC designed the Spartan-II’s during a time of unbridled chaos. The Human colonies were rising up in Rebellions, while the UNSC fought a second front against the Covenant in the early days.
The Spartan-II’s were born out of pure desperation to create a Super Soldier capable of quelling the Rebellions across dozens of different worlds, and eventually to combat the increasing threat of the Covenant.
Once the wars continued on and people learned that the S2’s were created through illegal Child Slavery practices and beating, torturing and injecting them with random chemicals whilst brainwashing them for nearly 2 full decades before they’re released into the field; People deemed the S2 and the S3 creation process as Illegal and Immoral.
This led to the creation of the S4 Program, which went back to the way S1’s were developed; Through voluntary adult recruits who actually wanted to be a part of it.
Seeing as the UNSC no longer had those 12 years from 6 to 18 to ruthlessly beat and brainwash them, the 18 year olds they recruited already had full lives before the UNSC, and thus weren’t as easy to manipulate and pressure into outright believing what the UNSC told them.
Same here bud.
Incredibles said it best “once everyone is super...no one will be”
You nailed it man.
Too true. I was okay with the IIIs and their vast number. But the IVs kinda botched it for me
@@z-man1237 ya I wasn’t mad at them but it definitely made the whole idea of being super soldier a little less bad ass ya know. I’m still on the fence about getting a new system after my 360 died I want to continue the experience of halo but there are a few PlayStation exclusives that I really want to try and I can’t justify two systems.
@Lövenge Genesis enlighten us
Right, but why have a small group of special, when you can have everyone be ascended to being greater than their prior selves? Special is relative. I’d rather everybody be super, than a small group of people or a limited amount.
For lores sake- I get it, we want to play characters that stand out amongst the rest, but think about the progress, advancements, etc. humanity could make if we had 1000’s of Einstein’s, Mozart’s, etc. rather than 1 or 2. Realistically, the “once everyone is super, no one will be,” works well in fiction and is great for a player- but in real life is asinine.
Edit: within a vacuum of halo games I understand the sentiment, and can agree with it.
Ah yes, and now we return to the adventures of Fireteam Fratboy, where Crimson has to keep cleaning up their messes.
I miss crimson team. Something about them I always liked, just can't put my finger on it?
Minus Thorne and grant
Yes. But in my headcanon Crimson is a Spartan III Fireteam secretly stationed on Infinity for...not sure why, but I'm going with it.
Headcannon: Crimson were Spartan-IIIs and that's why they outperformed all the S-IVs.
@@Spartan3D213 Yes the basically nonexistent fire team Crimson
The problem is that we, the viewer, never had a “passing of the torch” moment. We never saw how an S4s life experiences, could be added INTO the Spartan’s way of life, or how when push came to shove, they stepped up to the plate.
Perfect example, Halo 4. You see the flaw of the S4 when compared to S2. John was willing to, with nothing more than a broken AI, an unkept suit, and a pelican, take on the fucking didact to save humanity. He did the right thing, disobey orders for the sake of the greater good.
What did every single S4 do? Play it safe and go back home to get reinforcements, and at the end, civilians died, while all they did was with their super suit, press the button to fire MACs to punch a hole in the ship for the Chief to fly into.
It’s not the powers or the humanity, it’s their lack of determination to do whatever it takes to get the job done and protect lives.
If a generic S4 had gone with the Chief, and was cheerful, cracked jokes and shit like that, sure, he was no S2, but he was STILL a Spartan, because when it came to step up to the plate and do the right thing, and not the safe thing, he stepped up.
Well spartan IIs have some troubles with empaty. SIVs might have been the ones who saw an imense treat and went back to get reinforcments and alert earth. Del Rio was a dpuche, but definetly wasnt a villain, he did what looked logical to defend it's ship and it's crew. Chief knew more, but didnt really share amy data in the cutescenes. In Halo 4 is stated sociopaty as something normal a.ong spartans, it does mean a degree of incapacity to deal with peoples emotions, or to care for it at all.
Well....technically John disobeyed orders
@@dragonweezle4876 No, actually, UNSC is based mainly of off US Military, and while I can’t attest to other militaries, the US Militaries have some standing orders (orders that follow you wherever you go, basically, and cannot he disobeyed, such as not leaving your post until properly relieved).
I believe the Spartans IIs have standing orders, one of them is that if they believe a genuine threat must be eliminated, they can ignore all other orders, and even take command of assets. Or something to that effect
@@bogustoast22none25 it's ok bro, Halo infinite already confirmed this in campaign. Though that's spoiler I think
@@alvaroneto6486 they aren't sociopaths, that was part of a smear campaign directed at Halsey. The truth is that their form of emotional connection can't be shared or comprehended by other humans. That's the important lesson, just like how superman could destroy the earth if he wanted to, and even though he's not human (like the S2's), he would defend humanity no matter the cost.
*You can buy a Flood spore*
R'tas Vadum: 1 Single Flood spore can destroy a species.
Me: I'LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE STOCK!
Who are you?! Some kind of Flood Worshipper?
You trying to have R’tas glass the entire planet? What’s wrong with you?
HiddenXperia already bought all remaining stock
@@JaelaOrdo *My goals are beyond your understanding.*
lol.
A big problem I have with the 4s is that they have two completely different portrayals. There’s the 4s in the games and the 4s in the books. They are so dramatically different it’s hard to appreciate them as one whole. The 4s in the game are weak willed, brash, arrogant. The ones in the expanded lore are thoughtful, ever improving, and heroic. The games really REALLY bring down the image I have of the s4 generation
Poor spartan 4’s, almost always consistently poorly written in the games
Accurate
I don't read the books because my ADHD makes it impossible for me to adequately follow along with each word (and I don't like audio books for similar reasons); but after just the smallest details you've pointed out, I know wish the game Spartans were more like the book ones.
Gotta hard agree, many Spartan IVs in EU are Spartans through and through, but the named characters in game are pretty wack. They don't talk back, mission focused and are larger than life, though they do have occasional one liners. Why wouldn't they be though? As Spartan IV's their entire life is micromanaged to be in peak performance for combat by AI's, Prior Spartan instructors and their more experienced seniors, not to mention that they also have fought through an entire war and have experienced countless losses.
If the Buck books don't explore the idea of owning up to the name and overcoming fears and issues of body change I'm gonna throw a fit.
(Up untill Halo Evolutions all of the books were great to me, with exception of The Flood which was dragged down by the retellings of CE but still good).
One more thing. The Weapon actually asked John-117 why he keeps doing this over and over again. He replied simply "It's all I know". Yeah, it's badass, but also kind of sad.
EDIT: It was actually Echo-216 that asked the question.
Sure I teared up when I heard that line but at least he has a purpose. That's more than most of us can ever truly say...
@@rocstarang5747 We all have a purpose. Even something as simple as telling someone that you love them can change the future in ways unimaginable to the minds of men.
@@theov3rmind I agree totally. The question is how many actually figure this out?
@@rocstarang5747We all walk the path. Some make it farther than others. Some walk backwards. Most that think they can see the path are far from it. We should all try to help others through instruction and noble debate where possible. The gods are generous and will greatly reward ones that do. If you encounter one that is closed off completely, it's best to just be kind to them.
I sound like something Halsey would say to mess with an AI, lol...
@@theov3rmind that's deep homie. Travel well 😁
"You merely adopted the Name of the SPARTAN. The II's and III's, they were borne through it, molded by it, and carried it in ways you never will. They are flawless, they are irreplaceable-"
"Flawless? Isn't that taking it too f-"
"They know no fear."
I know heard and read this quote from somewhere.
might've been from one of the halo novels/books I presume?
@@zenthedying91 pretty sure it's a Batman reference
@@vegetables3375 No, its may take on Batman Dark Knight Bane and Warhammer 40k God Emperor of Mankind
Similar to what it takes to be a Warhammer 40K Space Marine, even the Salamanders, the closest to being human are still far above a regular human and are still recognized as such.
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
“Oh I’ll make them super I’ll make everyone super! And when everyone is super... no one will be”
@Thru-VIKING Oh yea we should totally limit ourselves while fighting genocidal aliens, space zombies, and robots.🙃
@@shangothunder1055
you're just dodging the point being made here. The point is the existence of the IV's blunts the badass factor of supersoldiers that excel in the art of war.
What we've been shown of the IV's is a bunch of flawed individual messing up and getting people killed and while this stigma doesn't apply to everyone for exemple osiris in the extended universe are badasses (even if in the game the way they fight and behave is less than expected) it certainly does not paint the IV's in a bright light espacially since the first team the games show are cocky, undisciplined, failures.
it does not help that the game portays them as replacing the previous gens, it feels like the awesome SPARTANS we came to know and love are being replace by cheap knock-offs that don't embody the spirit of a SPARTAN
PS: your point does make logistical sence however i will give you that.
@@zebaguettefromfrance1287 Nope there was never any point made to dodge. Just Nostalgiatards that can't let go of the past. Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity. If 1 or 2 fireteams is enough for you to judge a branch/group your a fool. Besides Spartan 2/3s fked up plenty anded up getting fodderized. Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
@@shangothunder1055 it's not even a matter of nostalgia in this case. I genuinely like 343's halo as opposed to most but even I can admit that 9 times out of 10, Spartan IVs tend to be characterized as total asses
@@zebaguettefromfrance1287 What Do You Mean The Spartan IVs In Halo 4 That Are Completely Useless And Don't Have A Decent AI?
I do know one thing. The one person that doesn’t care whether a spartan is a one, two, three, or four is John 117. John is a team player. In his mind they’re ALL his brothers and he wants them to survive. When he sees any spartan die it breaks his heart. Just look at his reaction to the dead Spartans in halo infinite. They were 4s and He was heartbroken about their deaths. It was like looking at a father losing a son or a man losing his brother. I personally think that some fans out there are too hard on the Spartan 4s. I’m not gonna judge the entire group based on a few that we’ve seen in some Cut scenes in spartan ops. The ones that we meet in halo infinite were pretty cool and they fought well. Also I’m glad they stopped kidnapping kids. I mean I’m glad we have the master chief but still what Halsey did was messed up.
wehn he finds one of the spartans dead he just aid "we have a score to settle" for me, that single phrase tells me a lot, about how he to chief see spartans, no matter the generation, he look at them as brothers, and thats just great
@@DarKronoz I know right!? He doesn’t have a elite high class attitude. In his mind, he’s just a soldier,plain and simple. Save lives finish the mission and go home(then Cryo sleep). Rinse and repeat. Plus a lot of Spartan 4s respect John. Even Sarah Palmer. When that Rio guy asked her to arrest him, she disobeyed orders. 👍🏼
my head cannon is that 4-5 just don’t exist and infinite is our first look at the 4’s
@@DarKronoz It probably helps people accept that when all the S-IVs that die are either surrounded by dead Banished (which is probably one of the preferred ways for Spartans to go) or are in a situation where they literally can’t do anything (RIP Griffin).
This is a very old thing in the lore. John-117 was never truly a Spartan 2 as originally envisioned (basically just a weapon who followed orders) by Dr. Halsey. In terms of combat ability in lore that takes place before the events of Halo hes very middle of the road.
However Halsey noticed two things about John: he retained an independent streak that treated even the most painstakingly descriptive orders as simply objectives, and if he could find a way to do it better he would. In their wargames and then in real life this often took the form of him doing his level best to avoid unnecessary losses and to rescue men under his command. Whereas the other IIs would do things like make plans that deliberately sacrificed dozens or even over a hundred men if it created a better opportunity to execute the main objective. That isn't to say Chief always tried to save everyone all the time, just that he had fundamentally different thoughts on what you owed the men under your command. This isn't really a surprising result though because remember the IIs were originally meant to end a century long civil war by crushing human insurrectionists with overwhelming force and no mercy. It's not surprising most of them ended up lacking a certain level of empathy and consideration for humans even if they were on the same team .
The other major thing was in this program that was supposed to be a strict meritocracy, despite being middle of the road, his peers basically looked to him for guidance. She described it to Keys as being an unquantifiable something that inspired loyalty and made him an incredible natural leader. So Chief in his pre reach/pillar of autumn deployments was never treated like the other IIs were. ONI was smart enough to play to his strengths, and as a result even before the events of Halo he was already pretty much a legend among the Marines and naval personnel.
The events of Halo basically just further cemented that he was essentially the best of the Spartan IIs. However he was the best because of qualities that were initially considered undesirable by Halsey and ONI, and Halsey had to do a bit of a turn around on her initial feelings that Spartan IIs should just be weapons that never question orders. Instead she ended up selling the idea that would be the most common outcome but occasionally some individual traits would be so strong they would survive conditioning and if they were beneficial to the actual goals of the program they should be embraced and catered to as the Spartans we're likely going to be the best execution of those traits.
In the book “ghosts of onyx”, Spartan 2 Kurt was pointed out to lack Spartan professionalism because he talked too much. Chief made this statement and it supports your video as well. Kurt lead green team I think, but was still highly respected because his instincts were unbelievable and the squad he led was tied in war games with blue team.. chief was nit picking but that alone shows the standards Spartan 2s expect from one another.
Later on in the chapters Kelly was introduced to a squad of soldiers wearing prototype armor, she was impressed with their professionalism and resilience (quiet and mission driven) but later found out that they were the new generation of Spartans, the 3s.. who were also trained and molded at a very young age.
By this logic the Spartans of Red Team would be extremely unprofessional, Douglas especially, and to a lesser extent, Jerome.
A Spartan II's version of "talking too much" is still probably a pretty quiet and stoic dude by anyone else's standards though.
@@mitchellhalvorson9719 washout? I feel like that undermines what they went through. Weren't they almost killed from the augmentation then recovered enough to finish the process?
@@mitchellhalvorson9719 ah thank you! I had no idea. Didn't want people bad mouthing my IIs 🤧
Most were 12 and 13 years old when going out on large scale operations the Spartan III most people forget.
As doctor halsey said to a spartan 4.
" You're new but you are obsolete"
Nahhh let it go.
@@shangothunder1055 ??
Damn😎
The only thing obsolete is her comment. Spartan 4's where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors humanity. 1 or 2 fireteams don't represent the whole group. Plenty of Spartans 2/3s have fked up, and been fodderized.
We are fighting genocidal aliens, space zombies, and ancient robots. We now have the ability to officiantly and ethically create more Spartans but let's not utilize this capability so a few old ones can be exclusive & special.🤪 Let this nostalgia clouded BS mindset go already.😒
@@HandOfThemis above
I think in a lot of ways the Spartan 2s and 3s are more like equipment assets than troops.
The morale and confidence boost the Spartans provide is akin to the boost an A-10 coming online for gun runs gives infantry on the ground imo. Doesn’t matter how bad shit gets, everyone cheers when they hear that “brrrrrrrrrt”
Hell! Everyone's spirits rise when we see one above, guns blazing or not!
If there's a Hog up in the air, we know it's going to be a quiet day.
The irony of course is that Chief is (so far the only) the exception to the general rule of the IIs especially being equipment or weapons.
Halsey says he's more than a Spartan because some unquantifiable something inside him that makes him inspire loyalty and allows him to be a great natural leader managed to not only survive conditioning but was enhanced by it. Like John is her favorite for sure, but it seems like in the lore she can't decide if he's a failed Spartan or the perfect Spartan. Because the very things that make John-117 this larger than life legendary figure simply called "THE Master Chief" are the things that make him divergent from what the original conception of a Spartan was supposed to be.
Notably ONI seems to have liked what it saw because you saw much more of this sort of acceptance and playing to divergent strengths in the IIIs as opposed to trying to completely homogenize them into an ideal "ultimate battlefield warrior"
Spartan 4's have a 9 to 5 vibe.
Spartan 3's have a triple shift vibe.
Spartan 2's have an immortal god vibe.
Spartan 3's: "nah, man. The night shift is easy"
*They say as they're getting sent to a suicide mission*
Spartan 1's have a knowing for what the ladies like vibe.
@Liam Williamson he still is.
@@sourface116 who doesnt like a Tank
@@sourface116 I understod that refrence and “For a brick, he flew pretty good " I AM I RIGHT MARINES
Yes I’d like a spartan to be more human it seems like a cool concept, but when they act like a basic 24 year old with armor irritates me because I am ok with them being more human but they are still hyper lethal soldiers that should be robots at least at face value but as you learn them have more humanity deep inside
Probably would've been better had UNSC use ODST selection and training as a base for Spartan IV selection but make it even longer. Then another 5 years of training after the candidates got their augmentations. OTOH, preferably ODST veterans.
Um only two Spartans were called hyper lethal, and neither one was a spartan 4
@@budwhite9591 that was ret conned all spartans are hyper lethal vector now.
@@raydiaz2772 lame
"Folks need Heros Chief, give'em Hope."
"So smile; would ya? While we still got something to smile about!"
You told me there wouldn't be any cameras
@@mastergreyskull523 And I told you to wear something nice
3:59
"Poor choices on the battlefield, misconduct, *disrespect, ignorance of the chain of command, conversation on their sexual conquests, fraternization, arrogance,* to name a few."
I love the disdain in his voice when he talks about the flaws of the IV's
Most of these are pretty normal for any soldier. Hell even some of the vaunted Spartan-II have done this and worse. Also, fraternization is not a flaw, like, at all. If you try to ban that in any military unit, there will be either a mutiny, or a court-martial.
@@addisonwelsh
I know that i'm just pointing out the way he says it.
The probleme with the 4's is the frequency of these issues it happens way more often and in more delicate scenarios.
Btw fraternization in the army is a crime defined by having an officer engaging in a relationship with a common enlisted soldier and no banning fraternization would not in fact cause mutiny this law was put in place to actually avoid loss of authority, discipline ,moral and the potential leak of military secrets. (you might be mistaking fraternization with the Married Army Couples Program (MACP))
@@zebaguettefromfrance1287 Well in that case, the S-IV's aren't guilty of fraternization, unless he's misinterpreting fraternization as two soldiers talking to each other, like most war movies usually depict it as.
I disagree with "disrespect, fraternization, and arrogance" somehow being "unspartanly" qualities. All of those characteristics can be seen within noble team. This guy misses the whole point of Reach, that spartans were never robots. They are actually human.
We keep forgetting that the Spartan IVs are recruited soldiers from other top tier UNSC divisions and that the Spartan IIs are indoctrinated, kidnapped children that are heavily augmented to still surpass the enhanced/better tech, yet less invasive surgeries taken to get into the Spartan IV program. I think the point on the professionalism part is that maybe the Spartan IIs were the greatest professionals, but it came at a cost of their livelihoods, even their childhood to be indoctrinated not by their own decision making. Hard to sell the best SOF members of the UNSC to partake in a elite soldier program that is marred in a legacy of child experimentation. Literally the S4s are for individuals with already developed life experiences and the entire program is publicized as a recruitment based operation while its dark history is hidden buy the likes of ONI. That’s essentially how I interpreted the Spartan IV when I saw them for the first time. There really was never a satisfying passing of the touch, because the Spartan IIs and maybe IIIs were literally swept under the rug post-Covenant War. If felt intentional to me in the Halo 4 campaign when Chief meets the Infinity crew for the first time to me. Just my thoughts.
Chief: "Our duty is to protect humanity, whatever the cost"
Lasky: "You say that like humanity and soldiers are two different things, we're not machines we're just people"
I think this perfectly encapsulates his point of "the problem isn't the Spartan, it's us" throughout the whole series of halo it's almost as we saw the Spartans we played as and the Spartans in lore as a whole as being these unthinking unfeeling killing machines while rarely ever making an error, almost like a tool to be used, and while it may be true that they are ungodly proficient at killing and have an extremely hard time socializing with fellow humans with the extra burden of having Virtually no freedom, underneath all that armor and all that military training drilled into their head you'll find a human, someone who has the same weaknesses of immortality, human error, and emotion, but just buried all away under this image of being an invulnerable superhero, and that's the burden of a superhero which is burdening the problems of society so they may live to see a better tommorow. It's a topic I think 343 did a pretty damn good job at addressing which is the emotional side of a spartan that has been drilled away by years of military conditioning and battle experience, it was also shown of pretty well in halo legends with the squad of odst's. You could say that chiefs struggle to find out if he was machine or man could be symbolic for every Spartan 2&3's struggle being he's the prime example of what a spartan should be at this point.
Anyone remember the injured soldiers in Halo 3 in the second mission when Chief walks in and they’re like “a Spartan?! We’re saved” cause 1 Spartan turned up when an army was knocking on the door. I’d like to see the Spartan 4’s get that kind of respect.
The need to earn it first
Meanwhile in H5, we see people of Meridian often being annoyed at having Spartans
I would like a spartan 4 to get that kind of reaction only to be smashed by a brute
@@agentnukaz1715 My money is on the Brute.
@@chiefsenpai969 I think they are more annoyed that the UNSC id imposing itself on their lives, moreso than the Spartans
I'd argue that the superhero template you might wanna compare Spartans to is Capt. America, not Superman. Superman is basically a demi god, whereas Cap still is fundamentally human.
Captain America is a superhero. Just as Batman is a super hero. He even gave a definition of what a superhero is supposed to be, not what abilities they have.
Well Captain America is basically an MCU Spartan.
@@Halo_Legend that's my point, basically. Spartans are extremely far removed from someone like Superman. But not from Cap. Steve Rogers would've been a fine Spartan, if not the best of them (sorry Chief).
@@GhostRydr1172 I have a feeling that they might have been best buddies if they existed in the same universe. That is if Bucky doesn't step in and say "Steven is MY best friend!"
@@GhostRydr1172 Steve Rogers fundamentally is different from Chief. Chief is literally bred to be a war machine, with his human nature inching its way out so very slowly. Rogers' fighting skills are just a byproduct of the serum which was given to him based on his humanity. He goes and says "I don't want to kill *anyone* I just don't like bullies". If able, he'll avoid killing people as much as he can. He's the opposite of the war machine that Chief is.
They won't necessarily be enemies either, it's just that they're not similar in personality or values. They're both supersoldiers, but represent very different things.
This is one of the best spartan breakdown videos I've ever seen. I do want to point out however, I disagree with your idea of spartan IVs being a problem. Halsey's Spartans were created to stop rebel uprisings and prevent insurrections. They were never specifically meant to be war heroes. They were meant to be monsters, putting fear into anyone that would stand against the unsc. They weren't meant to be human, that I agree with you on.
However, she states during the promotional material for Halo 4 that her Spartans are an evolution of humanity, it's destiny. What she says here clearly shows that she no longer views her creation separate from humans, but integrated with it, as something better.
Her Spartan IVs are that perfect integration. In one of the books, which are cannon, we follow Bucks transition to spartan and we see that they too are augmented (to a lesser degree), which makes them more than human. They're faster, taller, stronger, sharper. They are super in every sense. But they are also human. Qualities that Halsey clearly wanted to keep in her future spartan programs. She doesn't simply see them as soldiers.
I feel a large part of her motivations involve John. She's clearly very attached to him and she even says "don't underestimate him", bit just "don't underestimate my Spartans".
Sure we see Chief as a super soldier, but he's showed many moments of humanity. Not giving up on his fellow soldiers, not giving up on Cortana even though it goes directly against his indoctrination. Halsey saw all of these events and probably came to the same conclusion I did.
You can put as many ideas into a child's head as you want. You can change their body, mangle their sense of self. But you never take away their humanity. Given time it will always show through, because it's the human part of the spartan that makes them great, and Halsey seems to understand that too.
One of the best and well thought responses I have ever seen
Spartan IVs in concept makes sense. Economics of scale, streamlined processes and technological advancement would've allowed above average soldiers to become Spartans.
In execution though, well. The Spartan IVs we've seen doesn't really make a good impression. Palmer isn't all bad when viewed from the lens of jokey soldier banter in respect to how she greeted chief, but when she doesn't at least acknowledge MC despite her being higher in rank it's understandable why she has a bad first impression amongst fans. Then there's Team Majestic who's... dynamic isn't all that great save for one or two of them. And team Osiris is just butchered by poor writing.
It's a shame cuz the concept of mass production Spartans (less powerful but more economically sustainable and expandable) is great when put in contrast to the IIs (literal F1 cars w very questionable source material) and IIIs (more of a souped up performance car but just as questionable). But they're just wasted by poor writing. A disappointing missed opportunity honestly.
I am confused about the ranking. I thought the MC rank was way above someone like palmer....! I think I saw a lore video about this somewhere...
@@fishescu Master Chief Petty Officer (the same rank Chief has) is an E-9 *Senior Enlisted* rank in the Navy. In other words he's a high ranking *non-commissioned officer* (aka an *NCO* ) in the Navy. Palmer is a Commander which is an O-5 *Commissioned officer* rank in the Navy (aka *CO* ). So technically speaking... she does outrank him since all Commissioned Officers *outrank enlisted soldiers* but as far as military honor & traditions go. A highly decorated/Senior Enlisted soldier like Chief is given similar if not the same respect and command authority as an officer would.
@@brandonparson8821 thanks for the explanation m8. In essence @Petru O yeah Palmer outranks Chief in hierarchy, but Chief is far more honoured and experienced than Palmer.
I feel like Palmer is over compensating, I know she was a ODST and they have I particular dislike for S2s due to the incident where MC killed and crippled a group of ODSTs as a teen shortly after he was Augmented. In fact the ODST commdaning officer on board the Piller of Autum out right called chief a freak to his face when.
@@brandonparson8821 I'm 95% positive that Chief is MCPON. There's supposed to be only one of those, and even if that isn't accurate, the dude has the Medal of Honor...any awardee is always referred to as "ma'am" or "sir", rank no longer being a concern. Palmer did neither.
EDIT: Yeah, just confirmed it: Chief was "posthumously" promoted to Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy at the end of Halo 3
Spartan IIIs are amazing change my mind
An impossible task
I’d rather be killed by a S2 because at least it would be quick
All I read is fact...
@@jakoblopez1417 I don't know, a 3 could do about just as well if mjolnir isn't a factor (I know some of them had it but)
No, no I don’t think I will.
I know the topic of interest for the video is the problem with Spartan-IV's, but that end cutscene with halo 4 with Master Chief just casually walking to an armor bay while the whole deck just stares with pure awe always hits me. That's right boys. THIS is what legends look like.
I always thought this to a degree whenever john would interact with another human. How would a "god of war" perceive the peons and speak to them. Stoic, straight to the point and no room for emotion
After reading 40K novels, I get the sense the Spartan IIs talk to outsiders like the Space Marines do, the only difference is that the S IIs can and do end up making connections with some of the outsiders (Johnson, Mendez, Captain Keys, Captain Cutter, Forge, etc.) where as the space marines very rarely do
@@Russianmafiaman seeing S-IIs marking personal connections with people is one of the most damned interesting thing about them.
My favorite examples are Naomi-010 in the Kilo-5 trilogy and Fred-104 in the books Last Light and Retribution.
It’s nice to see these people, who have been through some truly awful things, have something good in their lives outside the confines of their “Duty”. Even if it’s just friendly interactions with the rest of the ranks.
@@Russianmafiaman also I think the space marines lack of socializing with the normal people is because of their extended lifespans.
More like a brainwashed indoctrinated super soldier not anywhere close to a god of war
Spartans were born of war. Spartan IV’s were born of a standing army. Now war has come again, and we see why the two are never the same.
I mean most Spartan fours are veterans of the human covenant war thou
@@bryantgiles1809 Not the same thing from a person who either got basic training vs a handpicked person who has genetic markers for war then trained for easily more than double some of the 4s entire service record. Even if we say they are equal, in terms of abilities, 4s would not be as efficient as 2s or 3s. Even ignoring all that the biggest issue with the 4s is how they are portrayed honestly. Who the hell removes they helmet from a suit worth more than a ship to kick around alien tech....then freak out when they are attacked.
@@peternash7104 Both are horrible, imagine being part of a planetary defense force where you failed to protect your planet and you're just 18 years old.
@@ls200076 Well that's not my point, my point is Spartans are freaks. Equally feared and respected. 4s are goofballs. Even 3s can be terrifying outside of SPI armor. Their training surpasses ODSTs and despite having 'worse' augments from the 2s it can easily rip apart a team of ODSTs. Remember a young John who not only was recovering from the surgery but didn't have full control over his movements slaughter ODSTs. A adult 3 should be comparable. The games don't reflect the lore correctly but it should give the right feeling. Both Spartan 2/3 had a presence in the story and narrative, illustrated by character interactions. 4s were treated like dipshits.
@@Feroce You don't need a war to make strong soldiers, also she deemed the rebellion the end of humanity and Spartans as the saviors. The rebellion shouldn't be downplayed.
I love how humble, leveled, nuanced and civilized you are, freely admitting that you don't hold the monopoly on Truth, that you can indeed be wrong at times and even more importantly: how you are always open to discussion, arguments and even willing make public amends if you have changed your mind on a subject.
Especially in today's world, rational debate and respect for others are sadly almost extinct. I know you'll always stay amazing because you're built, were raised and taught like this, but I'll say it anyways: Stay amazing, keep speaking with the voice of reason and sanity and spreading this way of thinking/being just by actively engaging with the community!
I'm sorry, how many of the IVs have turned traitor again? The number just keeps on getting higher every time I check.
I mean that’s going to happen when you can’t indoctrinate them
Only 3
And is it that surprising? There not indoctrinated children but grown adults and there are even Spartan 2 traitors
That is absolutely what the SIV program's biggest weakness should be. That's part of why Halsey wanted prepubescent children: conditioning the mind and filling them with nonstop propaganda. No family or friends outside the program, etc.
@@Tmanowns yep
Fans' complaints are the whole point, 4's are mass production Spartans. They are literally that one Marine in Crysis who says he'd go ninja on your ass if they gave him the suit, and it gives them their own unique flavor as a generation.
@Thru-VIKING most of them already had their training by fire, AKA the Human-Covenant War.
@@BrSgtJordan I'll tell you straight up, Spartan 4's are the most realistic portraits of servicemen. My only gripe is that they should've made them more like the ODSTs. They joke, they play around, they try to find bright spots in shitty situations because the human mind can't survive decades of war on broody, silient-protagonist bullshit alone. But when shit gets serious, they knuckle down.
Exept that marine was a grunt while psycho was the supersoldier
@@RTDice11 given some of the shit thats come out about the Australian SAS and the US Navy SEALs, the S-IVs are really, really tame
"It looks like someone had a little trouble parking their boat." - Jester.
I think a story involving Spartan -IVs facing the true horrifying part of warfare and how they handle it would be very interesting to see
See, they kinda gave you that. When you're in it comes in the form of bullshitting around when you're off duty, making dark jokes talking about sexual conquests telling crazy stories of your life before. Basically anything to fill the time between missions or patrols with noise. Because when it gets quiet? That's when the truly dark stuff comes. However when you're on mission you're 100% focused in the zone.
However nobody liked this very true to life depiction. Probably because they never gave us a Spartan IV that went into work mode. Also I think a lot of people missed the point of the IVs pulling back for reinforcements really meant. That's the conventional wisdom when faced with overwhelming force. That's what you are taught to do, don't waste lives and material on a fight you can't possibly win, fall back and get reinforcements. The IVs were following their lifetime of military training they had the "benefit" of. Meanwhile Chief is a child soldier with extensive conditioning and prior experience in taking on losing battles and winning. Chief is equally beholden to his past training and conditioning. However unlike the IVs it doesn't say fall back it says push harder.
Spartan twos never retreat
Spartan twos never surrender
Spartan twos never die.
so jorge still live?
@@santiagomartin221 somewhere in slip space lol
@@mattstorm360 Spartan twos stand together for victory or annihilation
@@LAV-III He's on Zeta halo.
"perhaps some of you are closer than others"
My favorite moments in halo games 1-reach was when marines or civilians or other non-super soldiers saw a Spartan and went, “A Spartan? We’re saved!” I hope we get that in infinite.
I've described it as: Spartan IV's are just tall marines. Spartan 2 and 3's never felt like a marine, they felt like 8 steps above the average soldier. Something horribly bleak but important about spartans of the past was the lack of humanity. They were machine-like, only caring about the mission and efficiency. I can picture spartan IV's talking about weekend plans and hobbies, whereas with earlier generations i picture them just shutting down when not in battle.
It’s fucked how much my childhood felt like a Spartan youth. Two narcissistic parents, life was “Code of the Family” [Bootcamp] and “Code of the Playground” [What I learned having to become incredibly independent at a young age]
Shit fucks with you, man. Makes you nigh unsociable
Yeah, that's literally what MC would do, go into cold storage until needed.
@@flavourruling2162 It hurts to read that, because in some ways (under different circumstances) my childhood wasn't that different....
I think this is a somewhat common misconception of Spartan II’s and Spartan III’s. We often think they’re cold and emotionless robots because our main example we see is John, he’s somewhat of an outcast even among Spartans. Johns main focus was always the mission, always to climb the ranks, he dove headfirst into the military life but not all Spartan II’s were like that, many of them craved more from life, they would make friends with others from the program and they’d basically grow like normal humans. Now when in combat or on a mission, all Spartan II’s and III’s were serious and robotic, they put their duty above all. But when off duty? They’d still hang out with their friends, even if it’s at the shooting range rather than a bar, it’s still relatable behaviour. John was just never like that, he was always a loner.
So something I've noticed in Halo 4 is how the first time Palmer meets John, she notes on how she thought he would be taller. They also show some similar height in the cutscenes. At the end of the game, John walks by Palmer and stands leaps and bounds above her and it shows her looking up to him and him down to her. It just shows shows how much more the 2s are beyond all others and they only realize it after the fact. Just my opinion though.
I thought you'd be taller is literally a joke for when you meet a famous person. Halo is the only fanbase that doesn't seem to be aware of this.
@@addisonwelsh halo fans missed the fact that Sarah Palmer was flirting with Chief because no girl has ever flirted with them.
@@cdgamer7306 half of us are guys we cant take a hint even if it slaps us across the face. And there are people who ruin people's views of other people.
@@willhornsby206 You could have just said that you have no maidens and it would've meant the same to me
@@cdgamer7306
Bruh drop the act
I don't think it's about the superhero dynamic, I think it comes down to feeling as though it was a power that's unfairly earned. The Spartan II's and III's sacrificed more than could reasonably asked of them to gain this power, and than continued to sacrifice themselves to protect humanity. But the Spartan IV's didn''t really have to sacrifice much, they weren't robbed of their childhood, put through tortuous surgeries and augmentations that marred their body, pretty much giving up their humanity to be protectors.
It feels unfair, unearned, even though that's the reality of progress. It's like training hard your entire life to be the best at something, when someone comes along and simply gets an injection and accomplishes what you've sacrificed everything to achieve.
And in a sense, it feels like MC is being left behind and everyone has grown attached to him. But this is the way of life, the old generation gives way to the new, and everything that the previous Spartans had to do, and endure is what gave rise to the Spartan Iv's.
I agree with you on the points of un earned power, but I feel a bigger part of why the IV's are so unliked comes down to respect.
If the IV's respected what came before and treated their position with reverence towards the II's and III's that woud be one thing, but no one really respects MC properly in Halo 4 besides Lasky, and thats arguably more of a personal respect for what he did when Lasky was a kid.
He gets little true respect from anyone on the Infinity despite the sacrifices he made to get there and the fact that every living being in the galaxy owes him their lives. That's the worst part in my opinion.
Honestly, it all just comes down to the writing and how they were portrayed. We had Halo reach with many "imperfect" superheroes but the story was written well and engaging. It felt familiar to us, whereas the art style and writing within H5 even made us dislike Cortana and basically all the characters for that matter. It just felt out of pocket and not quite right.
Well said
They didn't sacrifice! Their childhood and humanity were STOLEN from them! Basically beaten out of them by heartless instructors and scientists, who should all face execution for their crimes!
Yes, it got them superhuman soldiers (probably above the Spartan IVs, because the IIs and IIIs will do even immoral things (not to mention that they don't have regular human emotions!) if it gets the desired results, because they don't actually care about more than the mission!), but the cost is IMHO too great and all Spartan IIs (and IIIs) should be retired post haste (given enough money to have a cushy life and deprogramming from their indoctrination!)
ps: You can't sacrifice that which was stolen from you, so you don't have it anymore!
@@dreamingflurry2729 Sacrifice means more than one thing dude. You can still sacrifice something without it being willing or meaningful. The SIIs and SIIIs did sacrifice their humanity and childhoods, in return they became heroes, not willingly ofc. Also I believe the Spartan programs were justified. Without Halsey's program, Humanity in the halo universe would literally cease to exist. Not mention the entirity of life in the Halo universe since the Covenant would've been able to fire the Halo Rings, considering the UNSC would be able to stop them without the Spartans and Master Chief.
Spartan Thorne and Buck are the only ones deserving of the name spartan
What about the rest of alpha 9 minus the rookie of course
Buck was basically a Spartan even before his augmentations. RIP Rookie, you didn't deserve what happened to you.
@@anidiot2284 Well, Mickey needs to re-earn the title. Rest of Alpha Nine has earned it though
I'd say fireteam crimson deserve it more than Thorne
Fireteam Crimson are what all Spartan IVs should be, quiet, strong, tactical, disciplined, etcetera etcetera
I don't like it... but lore wise Locke is too
You really nailed it this time,
I appreciate that they tried to show a more diverse cast of characters' but where I think they failed is at character and dialog writing; it's not that they weren't capable soldiers, or physically augmented, but rather that they weren't intellectually and psychologically as prepared.
Mi issue is not with the Spartan IV program, but with the lack of professionalism their subjects show. They were supposed to already have a military career, and even more so to be on the top of their respective fields, but they behave in such an unprofessional, impulsive and arrogant way that they might as well be teens just playing Halo, instead of the most prepared, formal, intelligent and capable soldiers they are supposed to be.
The writing department for Team Majestic went full on with the clichés of some modern day films that they ended up perpetuating the idea that "just go for it" making impulsive actions instead of thoughtful choices. That extends to other characters (as I wrote, my discomfort isn't against Spartan IV's but a critique on character writing) as exemplified by "Dr." Henry Glassman; in real life, no self respecting PhD in any area of STEM would just order a transfer of an unknown technological relic into a highly populated spaceship without any sort of extensive prior research, casing, and most disrespectful of all to the STEM community, to just "simply touch it and play with it" perpetuating the extremely unreal cliché of scientist as "nerd who don't know what are they doing and disregarding the safety of everyone" (that character might annoy me more than Majestic because I've grew up all my life in STEM and Research Centers and so it hurts me after seeing all the IRL work that many admirable people actually do for our advancement as a species).
Returning to the IV's, I actually liked the original idea they had of trying to present them as more "human" (as if II's and III's weren't) given their background, but connecting them with a more "human" character, doesn't mean that they "have" to be immature and unprofessional; they don't need to "loose their humanity" to maintain composure and make thoughtful choices; specially when on duty. And I would know so as well on personal experience, because I studied, graduated and worked as an EMT (before entering my current mayor) and I know that even as "humans with emotions" a person can totally make logical and Extremely difficult choices even under totally critical moments dealing with life and dead and not only from other people, but many times yours as well since as an EMT you are not on a hospital, but on scene, outside of the ambulance and sometimes in the heat of the moment, with angry mobs trying to either aid or harm the person you are trying to save. And while I might pass off as someone "cold" sometimes, I assure You that I have never lost my emotions or my "humanity", otherwise I would have never decided to go to all the trouble and hassle to become a Red Cross EMT to aid people. So my discomfort with the character and dialog writing for the Spartan IV's (as well as some other characters) stem from the knowing that many random 21st century people can act professional even under dire circumstances and so I would expect that the most prepared military professionals of the 26th Century (and the extreme elite even by their standards) would be able to reflect the character and composure expected from them and furthermore the behavior, integrity and moral that led them to be selected from many, many other applicants into the Spartan program.
I appreciate more diversity of characters, like with the ODST story, but their naming as Spartans broke the story telling and universe building that the franchise had been growing; breaking the immersion and hindering the suspension of disbelief. Even beyond the idealization of what a Spartan should look like for the player, the very simple element of professionalism and the lack of, made them look like just impulsive kids and therefore, damaged the credibility of the story as a whole when the UNSC would spent a mayor allocation of resources on the most expensive procedures and equipment on board the single most ambitious ship ever made by humanity, on them, out of all of their most capable soldiers.
I know I'm late, but I must add, I spent the entirety of highschool in the air force JROTC, and we are taught discipline, strength, and to keep both our uniformed and ourselves tidy. We are not allowed to cuss or participate in any acts that would stain our reputation while in uniform.
When I watch the cutscenes with Majestic in H4, I just imagine all but Thorne just getting chewed out by thier commanding officer for thier misconduct while in uniform and on duty. They do not represent disciplined and experienced soliders, they're just a bunch of fratty collage students in fancy armor. There's better ways to make a solider human than this.
I don’t think that most of the criticisms about Spartan IVs actually hold any weight. Spartan IVs, both in the lore and in practice were never intended to play on the same level as their predecessors. It is explicitly stated that Spartan IV augmentations are significantly less extensive. Spartan IV selection is not as rigorous or exclusive. We can even plainly Spartan IVs aren’t even as tall as IIs. Spartan IVs were always intended to be in a wholly different, and lesser, class.
Their behavior seems about par for the course with *real life* special forces units. They joke around. They have fun. There are a few hotheads. But most of them are professional when they need to be. As a side note here, I’ll never understand average fans treating Spartan IIIs like they were worthy “successors” to IIs but disavowing IVs because of their demeanor. The only IIIs we see in the game (Noble Team) can be just as immature and unprofessional as the IVs that we’ve spent the most time with in the games (Fireteam Majestic). Kat was a hothead who talked back to her superiors. Emile was a jerk who liked picking on Jorge. On the other hand, there were Spartan IVs (Locke, Vale, Griffin) who could be just as stoic and constantly professional as III exemplars (Carter, Noble 6). The difference between IIIs and IVs in this regard is that we had an opportunity to see IVs in a more or less relaxed state of mind, where situations didn’t feel hopeless and they weren’t constantly fighting a losing war. On the other hand, pretty much all of our team spent with Noble Team was shrouded by a sense of impending doom, and we literally had to watch most of the team die because of how utterly hopeless the situation they were in *actually* was. *Real* heroes aren’t so different. They fool around when things aren’t serious, but they can flip the switch into stoic and determined mode as soon as shit hits the fan.
On the note of Noble Team, they argue and pick on each other in a way which is realistic, so you become attached to these characters. In Halo 5 I expected a laugh track because the interactions were so stiff. I don't think people are giving bad writing credit in how the spartan iv are viewed by fans.
@@kingsizedmidget7294 What “bad writing” are you talking about? Halo 5’s writing problems come from a requirement on outside knowledge in order to follow the story and a failure to pay off story elements set up in Halo 4, Spartan Ops, and the actual marketing for the game. As a self-contained story, the writing is just fine and the interactions between characters are not “stiff.” At least, if you think they are in Halo 5 then it’s an absolute wonder that you got through *any* of the Halo games.
And speaking of Halo 5, it just reminded me that Spartan IIs and aren’t even actually the humorless killing machines that we expect them to be. The very first mission we play with Fred has him joking about court martialed as the entire team goes AWOL.
I can definitely see what you mean about the III's however I'd argue that Noble team feels like a family (much like you'd expect a group to feel like that have been together that long) when they found out Jorge wasn't alive, they all, even Emile seemed tense and angry, but glad he could go out thinking he'd saved the planet, knowing the war was lost for reach but the whole team continuing to fight to the last for a lost cause and a chance to save just a few more souls off the planet.
But I do think the situations for the Spartan II's and IIIs is way different than those in the Spartan IV program.
I'll give you this, if Spartan IIs were supposed to be ODAs, then Spartan IVs were Rangers. They are both part of the special operations community, but Rangers on average are younger, have less extensive training and are intended to be a larger, more easily fielded force while SFs require more training, more experience and are incredibly more difficult to field.
@@inorite4553 (1) Rangers and Delta aren’t a perfect analogy because Rangers and Delta Force do completely different jobs.
(2) If Spartan IVs are Navy SEALs, then Spartan IIs are DEVGRU.
The real issue with the Spartan IV's: they keep ordering new parts of Mjolnir to customize their armor, costing way too much
Elites.
Hearing him say Grace put a smile on my face, I don't know why. At least not all S-IIs are forgotten.
I think that an important theme throughout all of Halo has always been, hidden just under and oft masked by the badassery and heavy metal, a sense of aching beauty and haunting loss. Humanity has lost so much in the conflict, and the S IIs in particular have almost lost their own humanity. "Almost". It's still there, and it shines through sometimes - the two-finger faceplate swipe that conveys a smile, the occasional comforting nudges, the dry humour - "Thought I'd try shooting my way out, mix things up a little." - , reminiscing on that time they stole Mendez's airtanks and camped and cooked calamari for a week at Emerald Cove. It's mentioned Fred was always the one who'd joke and wisecrack the team into better spirits when they were younger, but the war had hardened him, and "something special had been lost". These moments are relatable, precious, and very, very human. I don't think anyone has issues with the Spartan IIs doing these things. It characterises and humanises them on a deep chord. It drives home all the more the pain when each Spartan II goes MIA, or when Reach fell. These are the little things humanity fought for, and sacrificed, to survive and win.
This is in stark contrast to the cocky, unprofessional bullwhacking by the S IVs, which is downright crass compared to the deep friendship and quiet resolve we're used to with the S IIs. The connection was real with the IIs, the IVs seem like thugs in comparison. Ironically, the IIs are supposed to be "less" human, yet are written such that they embody true human connection better than the IVs, with real weight to it that adds to the core themes of the series. The IVs' brashness seems shallow and meaningless in comparison.
to steal a line from one of my favourite video game characters and tweak it a little bit... "Children with mjolnir armour, perhaps. but not Spartans." (Kreia from KotOR II, "Children with Lightsabers, perhaps. But not Jedi.")
I feel like many people’s tendency to jump to the Spartan 2s “stoicism and professionalism” is really misplaced, especially when trying to frame them as mythical heroes. What I mean by this is that they aren’t stoic because they have exceptional mastery over their emotions, for their Is, and cross their Ts. They’re stoic because to anyone outside of their small inner circle they are fundamentally incapable of expressing emotion eventually leading to the idea that they are machines. It’s frustrating because while you can certainly have a stoic hero, stoicism isn’t a pre-requisite to being a hero. Look at Johnson, undoubtedly a hero but he’s also emotional, boisterous, and jokes about his sexual conquests, albeit with a bit more charm and swagger but he still does it.
When looking at the Spartans in generations they’re all distinctly different because no generation of Spartan is brought up the same, so it makes no sense to compare them as upgrades and downgrades, but to compare them as sideways. Arguably they are anywhere from parallel to tangential in terms of similarities. After all circles and squares share commonalities but are still different shapes.
This is really a point of contention that’s going to very from person to person and to try to win out an argument amongst a community is almost pointless because you can approach this from so many angles.
Personally I think the Spartan IV's personalities are fine for normal soldiers, but when you make them veterans of a war that is of extinction level proportions who sign up willingly to become humanities defenders and act like a fucking recruit of a child then yes you done fucked up. Personally I think the Spartan IV's should have been made with a more SGTMAJ Johnson like persona and followed in his character foot step as a badass NCO kinda personality. This would make the Spartan IV's believable and quirky in there own unique ways. Too bad I only saw recruits on the screen.
@@vicemontey4297 Yes, thats my problem. They act like kids, not professional soldiers what they were before. The vast majority were ODST's, professionals.
@@MasterGhostf do you know that you can be the best of the best and still be human
@@mathiasadderley2988 But being the best of the best, also includes a level of professionalism that the fours as a whole, lack. Soldiers cutting up, and making jokes is completely normal, but NOT when on an operation, and definitely not in front of superior officers. The way they depicted them made them seem as if they were green recruits, who'd never seen combat, and didn't understand military bearing and regulations, while simultaneously telling us they were veteran soldiers, who were leagues better than the other people in their unit/ branch.
@@aaronself2411 Have any of you people played halo reach? I'm genuinely curious. All of these things you're claiming "real" spartans would never do happens ALL THE TIME in that game's campaign.
This is what I’ve been saying since H4 came out. We love the ODSTs and the Marines because they do what they do while being only human.
We hate the S-IV’s because they do what they do while being only human.
Man the marines and ODSTs will always have a place in our hearts. I like that halo infinity did show S-IVs as capable warriors, leaders, dedicated to their duty. As the marines still look up to the spartans for leadership and guidance. In some form, like how marines would look at the S-IIIs when they come as back up. Man, each S-IV fought to the death in the game, spartan sorel fought to the death with a screwdriver, that changes how i looked at spartan 4s.
The IIIs were able to do what they did while being superhuman despite being teenagers when they began training. This is the main point people tend to ultimately come down to. Because it means the IVs really have no excuse as they had pretty much the same training as the IIIs.
I liked the random unnamed npc spartans in halo 4.
I think the problem was they were so useless that it made the Spartan IV problem worse when people realized that not only did not like Spartan IV's, but now they die on screen like morons too. So it's more like salt in the wounds to most people at that point. Just rub it in YEAH!
This whole argument can genuinely become a well structured script for a side game that dwells in this philosophical debate from the perspective of a mere man in pursuit of moral perfection. Love your videos
I have to admit this was quite eye opening to me. To be honest, all throughout the video I was asking myself “how would I have written the spartan IVs differently if I was told to write about them?” I came up with two primary answers. One resolves some of the issues I had prior to watching this video in full. While the second I think would help on the perspective side instead and is rather simple.
The first response I had was to make the spartan IV program more akin to the alliance’s N7 program in mass effect. I say this because the N7 program did indeed produce arguably better soldiers from individuals already in service disciplining them, but it was also designed to make them leaders/team players as well. For example, I’d like to initially cover how the first test of the N7 program goes (please note I might not remember every detail clearly). Their first test has the N7 candidates placed in a vacuum (all them together) with limited oxygen. You fail if you run out of oxygen, the point of the test is for the candidates to work together to stretch the oxygen out. It is a simple test but in reality it’s probably the biggest, as it’s essentially the last qualifier after they passed all the other requirements that led to their being sent notice of candidacy. To compare, it is akin to the ODSTs and how they’re selected. But the N7s aren’t kept in “N7 squads” they are instead sent back out into the rest of the military as better leaders and soldiers. typically allowed better gear and given the more difficult missions, but still incorporated back into their respective areas of the armed forces.
Doing it this way I feel would’ve made the IVs more compelling to me, they aren’t just another section of the military and are instead incorporated into the rest of the military (considering the augmentations probably focusing on ground forces) placing them in leadership roles and displaying similar effective discipline to a standard spartan in the field of battle, but also displaying their human side off the battlefield.
I’m not sure if I expressed the above properly, but my point being. They’re more than just soldiers, they’re leaders.
My second answer is far less wordy than the first. Simply change the name of the program. Probably seems far too simple, and UNSC or ONI may have wanted to keep the spartan name fully alive to keep morale up and such. But in reality spartans would have gone from the heroes of the unsc to just another military branch. Keep the spartan connections obviously, keep the augmentations and armor, but they don’t mesh very well with what the narrative of a spartan really is.
As a story teller I think I’d make a callback to the Orion Project and probably name them something along those lines, either stick to Orion or something related.
In world I’d consider numerous titles, ranging from things such as Centurions to Hoplites to keep the more “more than just a soldier” aesthetic they’d probably want to keep with the program, to other more standard designations, IE ODST+ (that last name is a joke, but I hope my point gets across)
A third answer could be a potential combo of the two. But I think that’s enough of me writing a random comment. The Spartan IVs for all their flaws are what we’ve got. I do find the idea of writing something about how a standard unsc marine views spartan IVs interesting though… perhaps have one note the flaws they see? Eh, just ideas (haven’t played Infinite’s campaign yet due to money constraints. But if it happens somepoint in it that would be interesting, though I suspect it won’t xD)
The real problem: they're literally odst in flashy power armor.
Spartan 2 are walking tanks who were abducted at birth.
Spartan 3 are suicide spec ops made of vengeful berserker teens.
Spartan 4 are normal odst with SOME augmentation and power ranger suits.
Their lore-whack
Their power-whack
Their design-whack
Their recruitment-whack
Their attitude-whack
Sure, they put a lot of effort into making spartan 4 look good, but it's in all the wrong ways, the best thing we saw from them was literally an anime charge at an army of covenant, which is bullshit.
The spartan 4 are nothing but mary sues.
>Spartan 2 are walking tanks who were abducted at birth.
Wrong. They're running tanks.
@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva considering how most things were useless when shot at by any covenant weapon I think that point is both valid and invalid. Even plasma pistols do massive damage against literally everything so it only makes sense that their armor isn't that effective against them. It would probably be perfect against most human weapons though considering that's what it was originally designed for. The 2s also wore armor without the shields for years and were still considered gods among men, the energy shields just made them even harder to kill
@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva Spartan II's only started seeing the majority of their casualties towards the later years of the war, and for the majority of the war the Mark IV sets were unshielded. The strength of the Spartan II's comes from their innate intrinsic ability and talent, things like their armour and shielding just increases their survivability.
Ah, yes their recruitment is whack. Is that because they weren't abducted as children? And their lore. Is that whack because it's ODSTs and high rank marines who showed exceptional prowess and valour?
@@dragonweezle4876 The recruitment is really generic and is exceptionally boring for Halo's more mythical tone and the lore is lacklustre due to the fact that there's no classified operations on how they were created. The kids were abducted, but the training from childhood is a thematic implication that they were basically born for that purpose. The abduction part is sort of similar to being chosen by the Gods to become a hero of the Heavens, just way less ethical. The Spartan-IIIs even get the same sort of intrigue, just without the dubious, morally questionable nature of abducting kids to do your dirty work, since they were - on paper - volunteers.
Hoplights. As Halsey put it. Fits them more, seeing they are more human than the spirit of the IIs or IIIs had
I think one youtuber suggested they should be called Athenians. I could get behind that.
Or was it Acadians? I can't remember.
Let's be honest, if they changed the name then all the people whining about them not being "real" Spartans would be whining about how they're replacing the Spartans.
@@addisonwelsh Actually, we would think it awesome that there is a subdivision of Super Soldiers that are backup for the surviving Spartan IIs and IIIs. In Halo CE through Halo 4, we had ODST and Marines backing us up. I would freaking love it if the fireteam reinforcements were a squad of "Hoplites".
I have absolutely no idea what made you think that this turn of events would upset the majority of fans.
@@Mikanoes Considering most fans are complaining "there's too many spartans, I don't feel speshul anymore!" I find it to be a rather reasonable assumption. Most of these people aren't making rational arguments, they're complaining about how their fee fees have been hurt in some way or the other.
@@addisonwelsh Are you sure that most actually feel that way? Or are you falling into the age old trap of thinking that the ones who speak the most, and speak loudest, represent the group as a whole?
The "loudest in the room" usually just speak for a minority in the whole.
Spartan 2’s we’re Titans, unmatched in strength and power.
Spartan 3’s we’re Olympians, powerful in their own right, more numerous, but watered down to make more.
Spartan 4’s are Demi-Gods, descending from Titan and Olympian heritage, but with all the follys of man, snd all the pride of a god.
I find it much easier to like the fours when I think of them as the second generation of Orion, rather than Spartans.
Viewing them for what they are without an impossible legacy to live up to.
Hard to do when they have MJOLNIR, at least to me. Hard to reconcile them with ODSTs either, because what use do ODSTs have now? Based off Halo 4 & 5 - none.
Didn't read the 343i era books yet.
@@Halo_Legend well most of the 3s never actually wore mjolnir, instead being equipped with SPI, but that doesn't make a 3 any less of a Spartan than a 2 (at least in my eyes).
The 3s still behave like Spartans, have the abilities of a Spartan and went through Spartan training. So they are Spartans.
Likewise, the 2s weren't any less Spartan-like before they received their mjolnir. When blue team kidnapped Watts (hope I spelled his name right) they done it with the behavior and efficiency of a Spartan team. They were already Spartans before the mjolnir.
@@Halo_Legend The S-IVs are the true successors to ORION
I find it easier to view them as cocky recruits who just joined a special forces program and want to brag about the medals that other people have earned. The key is recruits and not veterans.
@@vicemontey4297 not all 4s are like that though
The issue is they would've been better off just being the next gen of ODST. I mean haven't they replaced ODST anyway? Honestly it would've been way cooler imo if they had just uniformly been given Buck style armor and made their new designation be either left ODST or replace the S with an A for assault.
Or like some sub branch of Spartans
Nope the odsts are still around the Spartan 4s are too expensive to replace what is basically the unsc second largest military branch
@@argo9721 for that to work 343 needs to write them better. Right now they are just children playing with tools they should never have been given...of course with a few exceptions.
Also this is going solely off in-game portrayal since more people do not give a crap about the books than do. No matter how good they are, there will just always be more people who hate reading unfortunately.
@@richardpatterson1694 Ok...this is why I hate 343's idea people. Nobody though completely droping ODST's from campaign might give the impression IV's are just replacing them? I mean it just helps unfairly cheapen both factions more...
@@Stealth_Gamer92 I think people would be more upset that the odsts one of the best things in halo would get dropped there still in the books and comics just not in 4 and 5
I think it’s amazing how Chief treats every soldier, Spartan or not. The way he respects the dead during the intro of Infinite, the way he mourns for his Spartan IV brethren throughout the events of Infinite as well, the way he complimented Marvin’s journey as “One Helluva Soldier.” I feel like he embodies the very aspect of Humanity. Or at least a true to life War Hero. I can only imagine how he’d react if he had to ever witness a Spartan Flood, or even the idea that a fellow Spartan had fallen to the flood. Definitely a fate far worse than death. 😔
I’m still optimistic that Spartan-IV’s are gonna be able to get some true respect one day. Like Spartan Vale for one, she studied Sanghelli language so well that she could compete with Dr. Halsey in terms of comprehension.
Too bad she looks 50, but nothing the good people of rule 34 can't change ( ͡■ ͜ʖ ͡■)
@@Halo_Legend how old is she?
@@Halo_Legend Hahahaha! You got that right 😂
@@argo9721 According to Halo lore, Olympia Vale was born around 2536 so she’s around 22 years old in 2558. But her Mocap/Voice Actor (Laura Bailey) is around her late 30’s to mid 40’s, I believe.
@@duchessailismanon8008 Such a f-ing shame then...
Tbh, I’m fine with Buck being a Spartan. He’s one of my Halo hero’s. The others though...
Buck was way cooler when he was an ODST.
Buck’s still more “demigod” quality. While he still went through much turmoil and has a lot of experience, his nest was still feathered from the same birth as what makes one a traditional human.
IMO, if a II is 20 times greater than a human, a very hardy IV, with very extensive augmentations, could probably come to around a factor of 12 - at most. for the very sake of growing up normally
You mean most of the marines and soldiers YOU fought along side during halo 123 and reach those who lost worlds and families to the covenant. Those soldiers are now becoming strong enough to fight back better than ever and protect what they love. And Youre shitting on them.
@@haramberoth117 It’s more to do with the fact they subvert the learning process. Spartans were taken as children because it transformed their outlook on life from the get-go.. expecting the same from normal adults is fickle.
Also, they are not humble enough for their stature. They shouldn’t be so cocky that they’re the top, it makes them unlikable because it essentially is them mocking what we knew of Spartans towards us.
@@yellowhoodie5299 its REALISTIC. Hell the us military act like this WITHOUT power armor lol its how humans act i have no issue with the S4 they are Normal humans with augments and armor. They need time to grow into being Spartans they're still im the "holy shit did you see that!" Phase nobody is giving them a chance because THey aren't the same as kidnapped orphans who only knew war and death. If you gave a socom soldier augments and power armor YOU BEST BELIEVE THEYD ENJOY THE FUCK out of it but once the luster ends and the honeymoon is over things change and its no longer "cool" its war abd it settles in. Imagine hating a group of people because they're human.
I love this video. It made me think a lot about who I was and who I am right now. One of my heroes was Avery Johnson, I wanted to be a good soldier like him, and I was for a time. At least I was happy with where I was. But I lost that spark and feel lost. I’ve been playing halo again recently to try to remember what it was that pushed me to work out and be disciplined and stoic. It’s in my reach and I think your video helped me out a lot
In the Halo universe Steve Rogers would have been a Spartan 1 or 3. John Walker would be an ODST turned Spartan 4.
Undoubtedly
I’d honestly love to see Steve depicted as a Spartan, that’d be cool.
I mean, in my point of view someone with the ethics and morality Steve had is way more likely to be a IV. "Not the perfect soldier, but a good man" and all that.
@@henriquechagas7017
True with the ethics and morality. But I think his mannerisms, how his character is built otherwise and his mindset, I feel that he’d be the other side of the same coin of being a Spartan 1-3, _only_ due to his ethics and morality. Two sides, same coin. Moreso kinder, easier-going Spartans like Kurt or Jorge.
@@legendarymasterchief7620 I guess I could see it, but at least for me Spartans are more mission focused than Cap. I don't know, it just doesn't feel right if Steve was kidnapped and made into a hero. For me he's either a III or a IV, just cause I think the decision to be a hero should be voluntary for his story to work. But maybe to keep that old school vibe he's a III lost in a ship or something. I would say then Bucky's a IV captured by the Covenant and Sam is just an ODST
"When everyone's super.... no one will be" -Syndrome
Oh yea we should limit our military capabilities while fighting genocidal aliens, space zombies, and ancient robots becuase an animated movie.🙃
My main issue with the Spartan IV's comes from looking at them from a historical point of view. The UNSC is creating a warrior caste that surpasses regular humans in terms of physical and mental abilities but without the indoctrination from childhood like the 2's this caste won't have such great loyalty to the UNSC. Unless the Spartans have some specific reason to be loyal to the government like social status or special privileges than they become the biggest threat to internal stability. Just imagine the warlordism of Warring States Japan and China or Early Medieval Europe but on a galactic level. Its not too hard to eventually see communities of Spartans developing which have more interest in claiming their own piece of the pie than keeping the UNSC together.
"Our job as soldiers, is to protect humanity."
Those are the words of someone who views himself as an instrument. Not a person. Chief is their leader. And he's been indoctrinated. Frederick is number 2. And he's by the book. The IIs were lead by the ones who bought into the idea of the UNSC the most. Whether by design or coincidence.
Halo 17: the Spartan IV Heresery
I think the Spartan IV’s are a reasonable direction the Spartans would go. They would mass produce the armors and get as many augmented soldiers as possible.
I think what could make them better would be to partner some groups up surviving Spartan 2 and 3s. That way we could see them comparatively and that some Spartan 4s may look to them for guidance. Considering the older Spartans would have more respect than the upcoming 4s. Some 4s may humble themselves. I think we see that with Thorn, but not executed well.
Jun trained spartan 4's so not out of the norm.
@@TheClassicDoomGuy I mean, Musa more so (a S2 washout). All we’ve really seen Jun do is recruit people for the program. I’m talking more so talking in the field combat. That would be nice to see.
I agree with this mentor mentee idea. Kinda like how there’s different Sangheili ranks, there’s different Spartan ranks that are obviously higher.
(Halo Nightfall spoiler ahead)
If I remember correctly, in Nightfall they were pulling straws, who will be left behind and detonate the nuke.
Everyone, including Locke, were playing along and tried to survive, but Randall, who were a Spartan II, faked it, so he made sure, that he will be left to detonate the bomb. Randall made that sacrifice...
(I´m not 100% sure, I might forget, if there was a reason why Locke had to survive, besides the obvious reason of Halo 5 and so... xD)
You are right, He choose to sacrifice himself, he lost everything already, so he felt that he was the most expendable one
Should of killed locke
Very well made. I always wondered if we had been introduced to them in a different way, with a more reverent Spartan IV, if our collective opinion would have been different. First impressions are everything.
Because whoever writes them in the games has the combine mental faculties of the entire bag of shredded cheese I ate at 3 a.m.
Who is the person who wrote Halo 5? because he’s almost consistently with the person who Writes them in the games (which sadly explains a lot)
@@argo9721 Brian Reed
Wrong. They have the combined intelligence of the worms inside the dirt. No offense to the worms.
Why? Because Spartan-IVs act like real everyday soldiers?
This is Halo’s perfect parallel for defining the problems of being Captain America when you’re not Steve Rodgers, be they good men like Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes or perfect soldiers like Isaiah Bradley and John Walker.
No it's not. The Spartan 2s have no ideals they fight for, no convictions and no ambitions for what they do aside from their indoctrination. What made Steve a hero was that he was a good man before he became Captain America. He was kind, generous and put others before himself. Even without the super soldier serum Steve Rogers would be a good man.
John was raised inside of the Spartan program since childhood. he has never known anything aside from being a weapon. All of his values were brainwashed into him and we know nothing of who he would have been without the Spartan program.
Not exactly referencing the overall individual perspective, but the public’s:
Much as how Steve popped up as the iconic image of America’s finest super soldier and the peak of mankind’s physical potential, so too occurred with the Master Chief and the other Spartan II’s, being idolized as, what Halsey categorized them, “our destiny as a species.” At the same time, both Steve and Chief faced augmentations that could’ve and even should’ve killed them.
Looking back now, the Spartan III’s can be better compared to those like Isaiah or even Bucky, in terms of their ops being even more classified than what their predecessors held to the public, with the public either unable to tell the difference or information on them being outright withheld to cover up their less-than-ethical works from seeping out.
Then comes after the great conflicts on both sides, where it’s now more possibly and accessible to create super soldiers like on an assembly line and with less risks physical, but now come the consequences mentally with a new Captain America like John Walker or new Spartan IV’s like Scruggs, Mickey, or even Demarco, that while having the higher chances of surviving and adapting to the updated augmentations, must now deal with always being in the shadow of those who upheld the mantle of legends among the public eyes and fulfill an example to meet the expectations that come with the perks of being called a Spartan or Cap, oftentimes leading some to break down under the pressure and fail to live up to their names more so psychologically.
The problem is that the Halo universe is trying to make the Spartan IV's into the Spartan II's with the mentality of a 5 year old. It's not the personalities are bad, but the actions sure are. They cannot make a fucking action that is remotely human because everything about them is so human that it's not. By trying to make the Spartan IV's likeable they shoe horned the personalities, comments and every other tom foolery into situations that do not warrant it and frankly make it more awkward. They are the black sheep of the Spartan program because they like to eat dirt and can't stop talking about how good the dirt is. It's almost like if they just shut it for once second they would be accepted as a new grade of Spartan soldiers and not just dirt eating egomaniacs whose only good during the human-covenant war was denying trees to the covenant that doesn't even use trees as a resource. This is the difference in writing and understanding of organizations.
The Spartan II's and III's act like a special force even if silent and awkward at times.
The Spartan IV's act like a fucking brick that won't shut up as to not give your position away because, get this, they are humans. Yeah that explains why they can't shut up because humans are incapable closing there mouth and thinking with their brains. Gosh if only real special forces existed in real life that did could shut their mouths and keep there heads in the game for the good of everybody.
@@vicemontey4297
I've never read a more poignant comment seeping with autistic rage ever.
@@onslaughtization
The public perception of the 4s is that they're super soldier badasses. Same as the 2s and 3s. The only difference on camera is that the 4s wear something nice to their award ceremonies. John is also not personable, at all. In fact he never did any kind of public works that captain America does. He doesn't go to veteran's hospitals or work with counselors to get vets help. Chief's public image is wholly manufactured by ONI, as the man himself has never been seen in public outside of combat.
Mickey and Zane are classified top secret as well, so nobody knows about them
I always wanted some sort of Halo media that delved deep into what makes a Spartan through the perspective of a team of IVs and a team of IIs that work together on occasion
*"The people need soldiers, but they don't WANT soldiers. They want HEROES."*
I feel like the Spartan-IVs should have been part of the Project: JAVELIN that Halsey mentions in her journal. That way they could still be super soldiers, but without messing with the legacy of the previous Spartan generations. It could also create an interesting rivalry between the two programs.
Well I am pretty sure if they were part of Project: JAVELIN they would still fuck it up because remember, they are war veterans pretending to be recruits or maybe they are just as dumb as recruits? I don't know either way they would still screem super soldier at the top of their lungs and be nothing more than recruits from boot camp. Pathetic.
@@vicemontey4297 You've never been in the military, have you? The S-4's are way tamer than any military unit I've heard of, especially special forces units.
Why is everyone complaining about IVs? Their personality fits what they are. ODSTs with steroids and heavy armor. What they say and do is literally the same as the ODST troopers in Halo 3: ODST
I think that the spartan 4s were meant to represent us, the players.
I don´t feel represented xD
Poor group to represent tbh. Most here would probably use their new abilities about as irresponsibly as the Majestic... scratch that, it would be worse
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity.
Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality.
Then 343 just hates us
@@smoldoggy1005 I don't think bending over backwards to adhere to every single tiny complaint (especially with the MCC) counts as hate
I think spartan Locke deserves more credit, yea he’s a totally brand new protagonist and that can be a little intimidating to some, which causes them to find every little thing to throw hate at him.. who knows, maybe he can be one of chiefs greatest Ally, maybe he’s just as hyper lethal as n6 . Maybe an actual “hunt the truth” story might start as a stand-alone or dlc or whatever whatever whatever. I hope he’s in infinite so we could learn and see more
Locke is a true Spartan that shredded aliens, and swapped hands with the Chief busting hes visor. If people don't like his character that's there understandable opinion but the character is a confirmed bad@$$.
My perception of this is that the spartan 2s were the perfect warrior. They fought for the causes of the unsc and nothing more. No ego, no pride involved. Spartan 3s is where they began to fault. Spartans like Emile are an example because he was a sadist to his enemies. While others still embodied the perfect warrior. While the 4s, more embodied the faults of a warrior.
We as a people we are in a perpetual state of “getting there”. Always striving. Being more today than we were yesterday. That will never not be the case so as long as we continue we will be all that we want to be. ❤️❤️ beautiful stuff 00
That ending gave me chills...
I think the distinction between 2/3s and 4s is what makes each of them unique. The ending really hit it on the nail. Good vid!
The spartan IV program is mostly an PR program to get away from the ghastly history of Spartan II's and III's. That's it. Plain and simple. It's a marketing rebrand so that they wouldn't have to abrandon all the science progress made with the spartans augments. Even the fuckups are ideal to have because then people won't call the Spartan IV's "Windup toy soldiers" and ONI can point that they weren't brainwashed or anything because the same mistakes that happen in regular soldiers, also happen in Spartan IV's. You aren't supposed to like all the Spartan IV's by default. It's designed that way.
Not liking them all is a good thing, but when your mistakes are so brazen that regular basic soldiers from any military would not do it even if they were not part of infantry then you have a problem with the Spartan IV's. They are below average soldiers (non-infantry included). You cannot convince me that they are the best of the best no matter how many times you say it when they make below basic mistakes. What's next you don't know how to throw a grenade?
Halo 4 intro "do you believe the master chief succeeded because he was at core broken"
The halo 4 intro is my favorite halo cutscene so far
once you've lost everything you got. your now free to do whatever you like.
-some random quote i saw somewhere.
Such terrible writing
One thing most people don't take into account is that being selected for the Spartan IV isn't exactly easy as you would eighth have to have great connections in the UNSC Armed Forces, Have served a long distinguished career in the UNSC, Be at the top of your military occupational specialty and field of expertise compared to your peers, Have demonstrated innate talent in combat (For none veterans), Have special characteristics such as keen insight, high athleticism, higher than average battlefield awareness and intellect compared to others in your position. Only once you fulfill those requirements will you possibly have a chance of being selected for the program. You have to be that 1 in a over a million soldiers whose talents and service are deemed of high enough demand to be offered a chance to join. The odds of being selected using such methods from millions of soldiers across different branches of the UNSC armed forces is 0.001%.
I love the Spartan IVs because of the idea that Spartan IIs and IIIs will grow too old one day, may not be soon but one day and the S.4 Program seems modular enough to go on long enough with positive reception by the public in the Halo Universe.
@Insert Name Here that's a interesting idea but remember they routinely cryo freeze non-essential crew members during slipspace and add up that time and while chronology they may be older, biologically that number may be reduced remember the human-covenant war lasted twenty-eight years and Spartan 117 is participated in the entire War from begining to end from 15 years old to approximately 40 years old yet moves unlike his age would imply.
and while I believe some Spartan IV's can grow into True Spartans others Don't and Wont live up to the Standard of Spartan's Code Of Conduct on and off the Field of Combat
but that's just my opinion
@@abellator7560 Most civilians won't see a Spartan, but they will have hope because there are Spartans out there. That is why they made the S3 suicide troops so they could continue utilizing the S2s for hope while sacrificing cost efficient S3s. S4s are now cost effective and can perform many feats of their own, maybe not on S2 level but enough that with numbers they can still carry the torch of hope.
The Spartan II/III's have a long way to go before they are too old to fight, Johnson a Spartan I with nowhere near as extensive augmentations was still fighting at 78 years old and if he hadn't been killed during Halo 3 he would still be on active duty. However many of the remaining Spartan II/III's may choose to retire from active duty.
Spartan 4s where recruited from the best of the best of each military branch of the UNSC. Real b@d@sses from the past war. Many have earned there right to be called Spartans true protectors of humanity.
Some of you guys need to drop this psuedo poetic nostalgia driven nonsense and accept that reality. Ah yes we have the capabilities to ethically produce more Spartans than before but let's not utilize this so a select few can feel special.🙃
@@shangothunder1055 S-IV's are a mixed bag, Anthony Madsen from Fireteam Majestic literally became a S-IV because he had family connections, i.e. nepotism. In theory S-IV's are recruited from the best of the best, but not guaranteed.
The spartan 2s and 3s can be in some way classified more as weapons than soldiers. Humanity near enough stripped from them and employed purely as a means to an end. The spartan 4s are more comparable to soldiers, humans given the means to fight without sacrificing that humanity.
I like the 4’s in concept, but I feel as though they shoulda gone under a different classification of augmented soldier, similar to the Orion candidates, also kinda small little thing but I always liked how the 2s and 3s were just barely humanized enough to keep them as something we as humans can look up to, like the little swipe across the visor that Spartan 2s do to signify an outburst of joy is something which I think is perfect writing
With the leaked information on new Spartan IVs being in Infinite I feel like there's going to be more emphasis on making them more professional and stoic. The Halo 4 Spartans accompanying Lasky and Palmer were silent individuals. Those are what I'd want out of the Spartan IVs. What people still fail to realize though is that Spartan IVs are by-and-large volunteers from the various branches/organizations of the UNSC. They were Marines/ODSTs/troopers/sailors/etc. before ever becoming a supersoldier. The hypocrisy is as simple as saying Spartan IVs are not true Spartans because they are too much like regular people. Well ODSTs are elite, non-enhanced operatives who still crack jokes and act like they're apart of a fraternity. The Marines kick ass across the Milky Way yet they are all pretty normal. I hate to say this but Spartan IIIs get so much love because they're 'unconventional' and were the focus of Reach. Which is almost every current Halo fan's starting game. It's a disgrace honestly. Lore-wise the IIIs were hated, cheap alternatives, and expendable. So how's that different from the IVs? It's hardly NOT. The only difference is IVs are more relatable and prone to human error. Even then the two generations are insanely similar. IVs just get more hate because of the lack of character building, the disdain for 343's changes, and the fact that pretty much anybody can be a Spartan now. So the hypocrisy hurts me mentally. There's a LOT 343 can do to improve them and I truly think they will. But overall the only people who have real issues with the IVs have issues with most things other than them and they just so happen to be apart of the current era that people hate. So bring on the IVs! Hell, give us old IVs back like Thorne! Just do them justice and bring the community together.
The video is basically “Lol it’s not their fault they’re bad it’s yours for expecting good writing”
The writing for the 4's is fine the hell you mean?
@@diopaper6444 in the books yes, not in the game
You missed his entire point lol
@@argo9721 every Halo game except 2 and *maybe* ODST had crap writing tbh. At least Halo 4 had some compelling character acting and development.
@@RTDice11 You can't say that because "muh nostalgia".
Oh my god that ending, this is exactly the kind of content I’m looking for thank you
It's like how Chief refers the IVs. They're Spartans. Regardless where they came from, they are seen as Spartans, by THE Spartan.
And yet how do they treat him?
They look at him as the young view the old. A relic that they were to replace, he treats them as equals and they just wish him to retire already so that one can take his place.
@@jacklau2558 When does this even happen? Any time IVs are within Chief’s presence they literally treat him like a god, you’re making this up
@@jacklau2558 wat. The one instance of an S-IV "disrespecting" Chief was Palmer awkwardly attempting to build camaraderie with him in H4.
@@jacklau2558 Literally the only person who has that view is that asshole Del Rio. The IV's worship the ground John walks on. Even Osiris had massive respect for him when they were told they had to bring him back by force if necessary.
Commenting for the algorithm so more ad revenue can go towards your project
Sus
@@Halo_Legend no u
joke's a side gotta comment for the machine go- I mean algorithm god to keep the "spice" flowing regardless of it origins.
In halo infinite the spartan iv's seem to have been humbled, become more deliberate and have had a decent amount of training so far.
This might bring them closer to the position outside of mankind a superhero holds.
If you are referring to the Tutorial cutscene which inspires the narrator, then yeah. But it also makes sense in lore. Cortana showed up and kicked humanities ass. All that spartan pride and ego just got a thorough beating. And as far as they know they just lost a whole bunch of their number and the Chief. They were brought low. Their whole outlook on what they are and what they can do was shattered. Its why the message of Hope was brought up so much. Its why the cutscene portrays its spartans as SPARTANS. The stoic heroes, the ones who will engage the enemy and take the hits because its what they are there to do.
That particular cutscene has done more for the Spartan 4's than Halo 4 and 5 have done combined when it comes to bringing them that little bit of "Its going to be alright, a Spartan is here."
To me Spartan 4’s just feel like augmented Marines, strong and capable in their own right. But in comparison to the previous two generations of Spartans, the Spartan 4’s are *a downgrade.*
eh to me
spartan 4's were made after the human covenant war which is why many people dont see them as heroes for not fighting hordes of covenant forces and dying in battle.
Agreed
They have better armor tho.
@@generizze6243 not denying that, especially since it allowed Spartan Locke to go toe to toe against Master Chief.
@@Fi_Sci_ they still trash tho. As a spartan
343 made the S-IVs ironically too human
Well thats the point
It's definitely not because they're human. Like the first time Fire Team Crimson(??? I can never remember their names) saw Palmer. The one dummy immediately starts hitting on her. I can tell you right now, that in professional units this would be unacceptable. The attitude he displays would probably get him drummed out or peered out if he was going through the SF pipeline. It's because they have the behavioral traits of a new troop instead of hardened combat veterans that need to be the highest skill and moral character to receive augmentations that give them immense physical power over their fellow man.
@@markss367 then maybe they shouldn’t have made Spartan 4s for the game
@@AustinH7 what
pretty ironic how the thing that hates humans the most its the human itself, even the covenant didnt hate us that much...
My main problem is they are trying to use them to help replace all which Bungie made. Notice that we haven't seen ODSTs in a while, but SIV using drop pods
This analysis is great it encapsulates my quarrels with the spartan 4's perfectly. Since day one my issue with thr spartan 4's was never their rowdyness it was that they were introduced as a kid freindly replacement for the gritty 2's and 3's who forcible sacraficed everything, their very humanity and human life to become the ultimate unrelenting weapons. Hope for those they shield and demons for those who don't yield.