Moved from MSB Discrete to Premier and now have the Reference, my streamer is the Aurender N20. Yes, there are clear differences in all 3 price ranges of MSB. But one can live with any 3 models for the rest of their life!
I find some DACs definitely sound off, but once you get to a certain level of 'clean/neutral' then the differences are so subtle they aren't worth the change, for me. Would rather put the money into better speakers/headphones unless I'm already TOTL on everything else and chasing that last 0.1%. I find if I'm paying attention to that level of detail then I'm not really mentally with the music anymore anyway, and just listening to equipment.
You have to use a high quality streamer as well as a very revealing system to get the maximum performance out of a high end DAC. You will truly hear the differences.
I've tried multiple DAC including Bifrost 2, Pontus II and Holo May and it wasn't until I heard a Lampizator that I definitely thought more expensive DACs sound better.
@ Sure, I heard a difference but I can’t really say that difference was “better” or more enjoyable. The Pontus sounded overly warm and smoothed out. I much preferred the sound signature of the Bifrost 2. It sounded more exciting and dynamic to me. The May sounded more neutral than the Pontus and I enjoyed it more. However, between the Bifrost 2 and the May I had a similar level of enjoyment but the Bifrost 2’s smaller footprint won me over. The Lampizator was quite an eye opener so I was able to settle for the larger footprint. I do not over sample for the most part but using HQ Player for oversampling, the May was considerably better than the Bifrost 2.
Next test is have someone you know plug in the dacs into the switch box and you don't know which is which. Then have someone do the switching for you as you listen with your eyes closed. Compare and see if the results are similar.
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the iBasso D16 Taipan, which from what I understand has similar topology to these with an FPGA and pulse width modulation implementation.
I had these 3 audition including Holo Spring in my house at the same time. With Hifirose 150 streamer, Gryphon Diablo 300 and BW803s speakers. Molamola wipes the floor on all of them. Terminator plus 12th was really good but quite colored. It has more details but also becomes thin. Really I don’t see how many reviewer use it as a reference. Holo spring lots of rolled off in highs and lows, so boring but good soundstage. Laiv less colored than Terminator but laid back a bit, but was good overall. My favorite was of course the most expensive of the bunch but second place goes to Laiv!
I think it’s correct to say ‘coloration’ with a DAC, because no two DACs sound the same, and with a Sigma-Delta DSD upsampling DAC like the Tambaque, the proprietary noise shaping filter encoded into the FPGA in the DAC definitely changes the sound characteristics. Even two Sigma-Delta DACs like the Tambaque and say the DCS Lina don’t sound the same, due to the differences in that noise filter as well as other things like noise reduction in the power supply, circuit board layout and more. You can even hear the differences when using something like different filters in HQ Player when upsampling to an external NOS R2R ladder DAC. The upsampling filter changes the characteristics of the sound and is audible.
This is why the Ferrum DAC with HQP filters over ESS standard filters is a real bargain. A 2.8k unit with proper filters vs a Tambaqui at 12k? It's a no brainer for those who can't swing 5 figures.
tambaqui is great, we have here done several comparisons to several other dacs and it was only when we went to wadax that it was really bitten. Ofcourse the rest of the system does matter because of sinergies
Interesting. I did the comparison between the LaIV and my Terminator II 12th and I preferred the Terminator. The LaIV was great for the price but it just wasn’t as enjoyable to me, so I sent it back.
@ including me-I didn’t say it is bad- I’ve never heard it-so why would you think I was saying it is bad? The main point of my comment is I would like to see comparisons done like I have seen on cooking videos-if a chef wants to know if peppering a steak before or after searing is better-he does it both ways, and then has his assistant hand him *THREE* pieces of meat - two are done one way and the third is done another. The Chef doesn’t know which is which. For there to be a credible difference-chef has to (a) correctly identify which piece is done the different way and which two are the same and (b) give opinion as to which he likes better. If he cannot correctly identify which one was different, then his opinion (b) is invalid because it is clear he cannot really tell the difference… and the conclusion would then be -it doesn’t matter which way you do it. This is how comparisons need to be done in audio as well. In this case you would play the reviewer sample tracks using say Mola Mola and the same track using LAiV. And then a *third* playing of the same track with either of those two DACs but reviewer doesn’t know which DAC is playing at any point. He must pick out which iteration of the track was the one played by the DAC only played once, and then give opinion in which he preferred.
Some of the comments make good points Blind AB testing has been a stubborn challenge Differences in DACs are incremental not colossal like the notion that the Mola Mola is 30 to 50% better than the other two DACs unless your rating system is irrational and meaningless There are a lot of apex level DACs out there like a Playback Designs MPD-8 DREAM DAC at twice plus the price of the Mola Mola and other DACs that might be even better but not 50% better Playback even makes a $15k DAC that might be incrementally better than the Mola Mola Try AB testing with a $15k Chord Dave as it would not surprise me if it was better The LiAV DAC gets a lot of love and might be enough for most people including me Your Mola Mola may be bottle-necking your system and you need to get something 100% better I joke but I bet you might be leaving 5 or 10% on the table unless you spend 2x or 3x more Lastly, you were asked if you were using headphones as it appears or speakers which might change the equation The Mola Mola seems like a beautiful DAC that most people would love but can only dream about owning, but why stop there and compromise your system ?
@Wharariki How would ME listening to a DAC or 2 prove that YOU (or anyone else who makes claims about what they can hear) can do what they claim they can do? If I claimed I could jump over your car, would you jumping over your car demonstrate that I could jump over your car? The person making the claim has to demonstrate they can do what they claim, nobody else can do that for them. Do you understand?
Forgot to mention that I did try these DACs with other headphone amps and a speaker amp, the Accuphase e380.
You forgot to mention that you had the L2 version of the May and not representative of the KTE(L3).
I sold my KTE for the Ideon EOS.
@ Nope. I have had the KTE in as well.
Thank you for all the comparisons! Extremely useful and hard to find!
Glad it was helpful!
Moved from MSB Discrete to Premier and now have the Reference, my streamer is the Aurender N20. Yes, there are clear differences in all 3 price ranges of MSB. But one can live with any 3 models for the rest of their life!
Fair
I find some DACs definitely sound off, but once you get to a certain level of 'clean/neutral' then the differences are so subtle they aren't worth the change, for me. Would rather put the money into better speakers/headphones unless I'm already TOTL on everything else and chasing that last 0.1%. I find if I'm paying attention to that level of detail then I'm not really mentally with the music anymore anyway, and just listening to equipment.
Regular people use equipment to listen to music.
Audiophiles use music to listen to equipment.
@@One-Two_swift-kickbox But next level is no longer caring about gear but findind new music and new genres to enjoy
You have to use a high quality streamer as well as a very revealing system to get the maximum performance out of a high end DAC. You will truly hear the differences.
Pleasr compare LAIV vs CYAN 2 next!
I've tried multiple DAC including Bifrost 2, Pontus II and Holo May and it wasn't until I heard a Lampizator that I definitely thought more expensive DACs sound better.
@ Sure, I heard a difference but I can’t really say that difference was “better” or more enjoyable. The Pontus sounded overly warm and smoothed out. I much preferred the sound signature of the Bifrost 2. It sounded more exciting and dynamic to me. The May sounded more neutral than the Pontus and I enjoyed it more. However, between the Bifrost 2 and the May I had a similar level of enjoyment but the Bifrost 2’s smaller footprint won me over. The Lampizator was quite an eye opener so I was able to settle for the larger footprint.
I do not over sample for the most part but using HQ Player for oversampling, the May was considerably better than the Bifrost 2.
Next test is have someone you know plug in the dacs into the switch box and you don't know which is which. Then have someone do the switching for you as you listen with your eyes closed. Compare and see if the results are similar.
Thank you! We need more videos like this.
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the iBasso D16 Taipan, which from what I understand has similar topology to these with an FPGA and pulse width modulation implementation.
Sure will try to get it in
audiobyte hydra dac also...
According to you, the mola mola has 30% more resolution.
I beg to differ the differences are so huge
It's almost as if you read my mind. I have the Harmony and often wonder how different the Terminator and Tambaqui are in comparison.
Hi, I enjoyed your derailed review.. Are you listening to these 3 dacs through headphones only? Thank you
Great review, that explains why Mola Mola is demanding its price tag!
I had these 3 audition including Holo Spring in my house at the same time. With Hifirose 150 streamer, Gryphon Diablo 300 and BW803s speakers. Molamola wipes the floor on all of them. Terminator plus 12th was really good but quite colored. It has more details but also becomes thin. Really I don’t see how many reviewer use it as a reference. Holo spring lots of rolled off in highs and lows, so boring but good soundstage. Laiv less colored than Terminator but laid back a bit, but was good overall. My favorite was of course the most expensive of the bunch but second place goes to Laiv!
Awesome! Glad we drew similar impressions!
Gm ☕️🍩
I got off the DAC Merry Go Round….
I’m sticking with my Denafrips Ares 12-1 DAC …on my headphone stack.
Btw, Happy Thanksgiving 🦃
Happy Thanksgiving!
I think it’s correct to say ‘coloration’ with a DAC, because no two DACs sound the same, and with a Sigma-Delta DSD upsampling DAC like the Tambaque, the proprietary noise shaping filter encoded into the FPGA in the DAC definitely changes the sound characteristics. Even two Sigma-Delta DACs like the Tambaque and say the DCS Lina don’t sound the same, due to the differences in that noise filter as well as other things like noise reduction in the power supply, circuit board layout and more. You can even hear the differences when using something like different filters in HQ Player when upsampling to an external NOS R2R ladder DAC. The upsampling filter changes the characteristics of the sound and is audible.
This is why the Ferrum DAC with HQP filters over ESS standard filters is a real bargain. A 2.8k unit with proper filters vs a Tambaqui at 12k? It's a no brainer for those who can't swing 5 figures.
True
Thank you for the interesting and informative review.
Thank you for the details Bhai. They really put things into perspective.
My pleasure
Thank for this interesting and comparative review. Very useful for end user .
What does your system consist of?
How are you sending the same signal to two DACs at the same time to A-B them?
tambaqui is great, we have here done several comparisons to several other dacs and it was only when we went to wadax that it was really bitten. Ofcourse the rest of the system does matter because of sinergies
Interesting. I did the comparison between the LaIV and my Terminator II 12th and I preferred the Terminator. The LaIV was great for the price but it just wasn’t as enjoyable to me, so I sent it back.
Were you able to do it blind with your switch box??
Everyone seems to like the LAiV
Nobody said its bad. I bet it sounds great. But there is even better.
@ including me-I didn’t say it is bad- I’ve never heard it-so why would you think I was saying it is bad? The main point of my comment is I would like to see comparisons done like I have seen on cooking videos-if a chef wants to know if peppering a steak before or after searing is better-he does it both ways, and then has his assistant hand him *THREE* pieces of meat - two are done one way and the third is done another. The Chef doesn’t know which is which.
For there to be a credible difference-chef has to (a) correctly identify which piece is done the different way and which two are the same and (b) give opinion as to which he likes better. If he cannot correctly identify which one was different, then his opinion (b) is invalid because it is clear he cannot really tell the difference… and the conclusion would then be -it doesn’t matter which way you do it.
This is how comparisons need to be done in audio as well. In this case you would play the reviewer sample tracks using say Mola Mola and the same track using LAiV. And then a *third* playing of the same track with either of those two DACs but reviewer doesn’t know which DAC is playing at any point. He must pick out which iteration of the track was the one played by the DAC only played once, and then give opinion in which he preferred.
Well said you can get SOTA for under a grand, no need to spend cash on 30k 40k dacs...
Some dacs are better suited for speakers; as soundstage is different.
Ok, interesting!
Some of the comments make good points
Blind AB testing has been a stubborn challenge
Differences in DACs are incremental not colossal like the notion that the Mola Mola is 30 to 50% better than the other two DACs unless your rating system is irrational and meaningless
There are a lot of apex level DACs out there like a Playback Designs MPD-8 DREAM DAC at twice plus the price of the Mola Mola and other DACs that might be even better but not 50% better
Playback even makes a $15k DAC that might be incrementally better than the Mola Mola
Try AB testing with a $15k Chord Dave as it would not surprise me if it was better
The LiAV DAC gets a lot of love and might be enough for most people including me
Your Mola Mola may be bottle-necking your system and you need to get something 100% better
I joke but I bet you might be leaving 5 or 10% on the table unless you spend 2x or 3x more
Lastly, you were asked if you were using headphones as it appears or speakers which might change the equation
The Mola Mola seems like a beautiful DAC that most people would love but can only dream about owning, but why stop there and compromise your system ?
A video of you passing a double blind test is what's required.
Talk is cheap
SHOW us you can do what you claim you can do.
I think you listening to a DAC or two is what’s required, if you can manage to put aside your preconceptions to make it worthwhile, that is.
@Wharariki
How would ME listening to a DAC or 2 prove that YOU (or anyone else who makes claims about what they can hear) can do what they claim they can do?
If I claimed I could jump over your car, would you jumping over your car demonstrate that I could jump over your car?
The person making the claim has to demonstrate they can do what they claim, nobody else can do that for them.
Do you understand?
test