The Message: "I'm gonna throw out random laggy moves, and pray to Sakurai they land!!!" Your opponent cant hear the message over their W. (Ganondorf isn't that fun when youre getting juggled all game) He's a Bad Captain Falcon Clone and in Ultimate he's still bad, but not as much as he used to be when comparing old moveset to new moveset.
Not to mention he had a programming error on forward air, as they wanted the move to autocancel on frame 35, but they used a wait timer instead of a frame timer, meaning that it said it would autocancel on frame 55, and even though this move was supposed to have 44 total frames, since the autocancel window is so late, that gave the move 10 extra frames of endlag
Brawl Ivysaur if he were a standalone would be worse. Brawl tethers SUCKED, the forced stamina made Ivy even worse and the 10% knockback increase on fire moves meant Ivy died much earlier than expected to half the cast's attacks. ( 19 of the 39 characters had fire in some way. )
I genuinely don’t understand why they added stamina + type effectiveness in Brawl imo its poor and very unbalanced game design and made PT worse than they should have been Very glad those 2 mechanics didn’t come back in Ultimate
@xaboltewolf9832 I kinda wish they added that battle damage system/weapon durability system into Brawl as a side mode. That's the whole reason stale moves are so goddamn bad in Brawl, because it's a remnant of the old battle damage system they were gonna implement and just didn't change the staling value back to how it was in Melee.
In a way, Ganondorf is exemplary of the large, hard hitting character archetype in other fighting games. Insanely menacing and broken in the first week, but as people get better at the game, he gets worse. It’s a shame, because they did make a serious effort to buff him in Ultimate, but all they did was improve his strengths instead of addressing his greatest flaws, and that design philosophy resulted in his third straight game as a bottom tier. As fun as he is to play, he needs a rework in Smash 6.
I largely blame Ganondorf being so terrible in Smash on his last-minute inclusion in Melee, and more specifically many of his moves being pulled straight from Captain Falcon with just slightly more powerful stats. Brawl did him even dirtier, as he's easily outranked by every other character in the entire series, even Melee Bowser.
Honestly, there’s no excuse with how they treated Ganondorf from Brawl onwards, especially with 4 and Ultimate. Granted, Ultimate did change his smash attacks (and made them cooler), but come on 3/4 of his specials were straight up from Captain Falcon, and so are 3/4 of his aerials. Like what’s stopping them?
This move use to be the best move to ever force commits on. Because when you came down and you guys died they died first now they die second so which ruined it unless a stock was there
Ganondorf is basically like Dr. Mario and King Dedede when it comes to sequels. In Melee, Ganon and Doc are solid mid-tiers, but in Brawl, Ganon got horrible nerfs, and Doc also received them in Smash 4. Dedede also suffered from heavy nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4. I'd honestly like to see Ganon be a mid-tier again, or at least be a character that's not in the bottom 5 or 8.
If it weren't for the higher-resolution image at 0:33, my brain would continue to insist there is a dragon-frog hybrid adorned his chest armour for generations.
As a melee ganon main I think something a lot of people dont talk about is just how good his mobility and platform play is. Once you get your perfect wavedash and wavelands down he's honestly not that slow/limited movement wise. As for platform play he has a perfect up throw for setting up platform tech chasing/sharking with his aerials (especially upair). Once you condition people to shield on platforms you can mixup with up b which can be a win condition at high percentages. Also side b is unironically really good and can lead to kill confirms and tech chases. HIs reverse upair is a ridiculous edge guarding tool. People are conditioned to watch for ganon crouching in corners cause it projects a down b so you can just crouch in a corner and a lot of times people back off. Grounded down b is a really good tool to catch people off gaurd in neutral, this can lead to really cheesy kills. His recovery is solid but predictable, better than it has any right to be in terms of sheer vertical and horizontal distance. Since he is heavy and lasts a long time you are more likely to be sent off stage at a higher angle which gives you the ability to jump reset with down b. I think people don't really rock with him cause "ganon is bad" is kinda a meme, also people don't like being combo food. 7-10 hits from a better character is equal to 3-5 hits from ganon. Whats the point of the crazy 10 hit combos if you are just gonna kill by edge guarding with a shine spike (something you can do at 0 percent). People just don't like the playstyle. But I will say that the feeling of being in flow state as ganon is better than any other character i've played. Ganon is a character that works best with patient players. Also has the sauciest shmovement imo.
Basically he is bottom tier in brawl and onwards because his mobility was nerfed and the changes with the games’ mechanics! But I still believe that Ganon is better than Little Mac!
I've no idea how through 4 games they never gave Ganon his own lore-based B moves. All 4 of his moves should have changed when going from Melee to Brawl. Like from the OoT fight, he could have a reflect ability with his cape, he can levitate, he can create and throw a electric ball, and he can slam the ground and create a shock wave. Make those his 4 special moves and you have a way better character.
2 is blatantly wrong. You've got characters like Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Palutena, Pac-Man, and Shulk who have all been massively buffed from 4, way more than Ganondorf
Lifelong Bowser and Ganondorf main here. We have to work for it, but there's scarcely anything more satisfying in Smash than absolutely demolishing someone with a side smash or a Warlock Punch.
Something interesting about Sm4sh Ganondorf is that I don't think Bowser can escape side-b. Regardless of whether Bowser techs or not or which direction he techs, Ganondorf should always be able to follow up with a down-tilt because Bowser's tech frame data was bad and didn't give enough intangibility or speed to avoid a Ganon down-tilt. I remember there was a time when Bowser was super popular to play as, and Ganondorf had a weirdly decent matchup against him. I'm not sure if any balance patches ended up changing this, as it was fairly early in the life-span of Sm4sh when I found this out.
1. Who's Children's Link ? 2. The reason why Ganondorf was nerfed in the PAL version of Melee is because he was ranked 12th on the very first tier list.
> Who's Children's Link ? As the pools for new characters were voted back then in Japan, the tables listed here are translations from Japanese to English. So in this case Children's Link seems like a weird translation of こどもリンク (Kodomo Link) or Child Link. So basically it is Young Link, that was indeed added to Melee later.
One of the main reasons he got needed in Brawl was because Sakuirai mained him in melee, but since he was so good at the game he could not play with his friends, so then he nerfed him
I just realized they put link in 64 and going into Melee, no doubt in part due to popular demand, added 3 (technically 4 now) Zelda reps to melee on top of Link. It's like how people look at the Fire Emblem representation in modern Smash but Legend of Zelda also happens to be arguably the GOAT of gaming so we're okay with it.
Yeah and then they proceeded to never add a real legend of zelda character into smash bros again. Sure there's Toon Link but he's a clone. And two of the Newcomers in Melee were clones as well. I think myself and other Zelda fans who play smash bros would've rather had only 2 new unique Zelda reps in Brawl, and gotten new unique zelda characters in brawl and smash 4 instead of getting a bunch of clones in the beginning and never getting anymore characters after that.
I'm sorry, but Ult Ganondorf is an unquestionable downgrade from S4. Nearly his entire moveset was either unchanged or nerfed for Ultimate, and his speed boosts don't matter due to everyone else also getting faster. He also has an even worse matchup spread and less notable results, despite the fact that Ultimate has now surpassed Smash 4's competitive lifespan. Still way better than Brawl Ganon, but he falls short of his 4 incarnation in nearly every way.
Wish I could swap Wario with Ganondorf in the timeline where Wario is kinda a clone of Mario but gets changes each game and Ganondorf is unique from Brawl
His biggest problem is he's way too slow and having that same crap recovery doesn't help. Neither does him being in the same weight class as Bowser and Donkey Kong. How he didn't get that jump activated float like Peach is beyond me........
I’d have to Say, next to the Echo Fighters (with the Exception Ken and Richter), Bowser, Sonic and Donkey Kong, Ganondorf is one of the top Most poorly executed playable fighters.
I feel like at this point, I’m 50/50 to Ganon having a fully original move set. On one side, yes, it’s long overdue and there’s so much material they could use. On the other hand, Ganon’s clone moveset has become so iconic that I feel like it’ll be difficult to change since it’s so tied to his smash identity. Warlock Punch is such a meme move that’s fun when you pull it off. Flamechoke is honestly cool as hell. And his Dair is just chefs kiss. Idk, this is a tough call lmao
He's only mid in Melee because of L canceling, the falcon kick/wizkick double jump restoration bug and because he's the closest to Falcon he's ever been lmao. Ironically the further he strayed from Falcon's moveset, the further down the tier list he fell.
You don’t play Ganondorf to win, you play Ganondorf to send a message
Play Ganon to assert dominance
Or that he's fun
Type shi
The Message: "I'm gonna throw out random laggy moves, and pray to Sakurai they land!!!"
Your opponent cant hear the message over their W. (Ganondorf isn't that fun when youre getting juggled all game)
He's a Bad Captain Falcon Clone
and in Ultimate he's still bad, but not as much as he used to be when comparing old moveset to new moveset.
@@HOLYVEXZEL tbf he's good online cause everyone is bad online
Being a Falcon clone 4 times is probably the biggest disrespect he’s gotten in anything
Fr
Brawl ganondorf might be the worst character in the entire series, even melee bowser is better
Maybe Brawl Ivysaur was even worse, but no Brawl Ganon was absolutely dogshit
Not to mention he had a programming error on forward air, as they wanted the move to autocancel on frame 35, but they used a wait timer instead of a frame timer, meaning that it said it would autocancel on frame 55, and even though this move was supposed to have 44 total frames, since the autocancel window is so late, that gave the move 10 extra frames of endlag
Brawl Ivysaur if he were a standalone would be worse. Brawl tethers SUCKED, the forced stamina made Ivy even worse and the 10% knockback increase on fire moves meant Ivy died much earlier than expected to half the cast's attacks. ( 19 of the 39 characters had fire in some way. )
I genuinely don’t understand why they added stamina + type effectiveness in Brawl imo its poor and very unbalanced game design and made PT worse than they should have been
Very glad those 2 mechanics didn’t come back in Ultimate
@xaboltewolf9832 I kinda wish they added that battle damage system/weapon durability system into Brawl as a side mode. That's the whole reason stale moves are so goddamn bad in Brawl, because it's a remnant of the old battle damage system they were gonna implement and just didn't change the staling value back to how it was in Melee.
Being the worst character in 3/4 of your apperances and peaking as a low/mid tier is crazy
Jigglypuff is the worst in Smash 4
Poor Ganon is so bad in the Smash series his title isn’t even “how good was he in Smash Bros” he’s just THAT bad
The Gannon float exploit is one of the only ,"Moves, " that he gets from his games 😭
In a way, Ganondorf is exemplary of the large, hard hitting character archetype in other fighting games. Insanely menacing and broken in the first week, but as people get better at the game, he gets worse. It’s a shame, because they did make a serious effort to buff him in Ultimate, but all they did was improve his strengths instead of addressing his greatest flaws, and that design philosophy resulted in his third straight game as a bottom tier. As fun as he is to play, he needs a rework in Smash 6.
I largely blame Ganondorf being so terrible in Smash on his last-minute inclusion in Melee, and more specifically many of his moves being pulled straight from Captain Falcon with just slightly more powerful stats. Brawl did him even dirtier, as he's easily outranked by every other character in the entire series, even Melee Bowser.
Yeah when I first seen him in Melee I was assuming his Playstyle would be similar to Zelda with more power. He did use magic in OoT
Honestly, there’s no excuse with how they treated Ganondorf from Brawl onwards, especially with 4 and Ultimate. Granted, Ultimate did change his smash attacks (and made them cooler), but come on 3/4 of his specials were straight up from Captain Falcon, and so are 3/4 of his aerials. Like what’s stopping them?
Ganondorf has so much room for originality in terms of his moveset. Dorf done dirty 4 times over
I woulsnt mind if he was cut from the next game and brought back as DLC with a game faithful moveset
In a perfect Smash Bros. game, Ganondorf would be as powerful and intimidating as Kazuya
And dont you forget it the knee of justice the drag me to hell
This move use to be the best move to ever force commits on. Because when you came down and you guys died they died first now they die second so which ruined it unless a stock was there
The biggest elephant in the room was that he was C. Falcon clone.
I still really hate how Ganondorf is just C. Falcon but slower. I hope smash 6 gives him unique moves basted on the Legend of Zelda series
Nah after 3 smash games, that’s not gonna happen. They all gonna do is just give him some buffs
Ganondorf is basically like Dr. Mario and King Dedede when it comes to sequels.
In Melee, Ganon and Doc are solid mid-tiers, but in Brawl, Ganon got horrible nerfs, and Doc also received them in Smash 4. Dedede also suffered from heavy nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4.
I'd honestly like to see Ganon be a mid-tier again, or at least be a character that's not in the bottom 5 or 8.
Arguably has the worst competitive record through out the series, only rivaled by Zelda. (Depends how much you value their best appearances)
zelda is worse because ganon was mid tier in melee while zelda was never above low tier
If it weren't for the higher-resolution image at 0:33, my brain would continue to insist there is a dragon-frog hybrid adorned his chest armour for generations.
Brawl Ganondorf makes me sad
It's sad that even his best iteration, Melee, he's an unviable mid-tier, only getting to that status cuz he has the moveset of another high tier
The closest he’s ever been to high tier not counting modded games is early Melee
Ganondorf will always be the character who was done the dirtiest in Smash
Remember when people thought Ganondorf was gonna be good in Ultimate lmao
As a melee ganon main I think something a lot of people dont talk about is just how good his mobility and platform play is. Once you get your perfect wavedash and wavelands down he's honestly not that slow/limited movement wise. As for platform play he has a perfect up throw for setting up platform tech chasing/sharking with his aerials (especially upair). Once you condition people to shield on platforms you can mixup with up b which can be a win condition at high percentages. Also side b is unironically really good and can lead to kill confirms and tech chases. HIs reverse upair is a ridiculous edge guarding tool. People are conditioned to watch for ganon crouching in corners cause it projects a down b so you can just crouch in a corner and a lot of times people back off. Grounded down b is a really good tool to catch people off gaurd in neutral, this can lead to really cheesy kills. His recovery is solid but predictable, better than it has any right to be in terms of sheer vertical and horizontal distance. Since he is heavy and lasts a long time you are more likely to be sent off stage at a higher angle which gives you the ability to jump reset with down b. I think people don't really rock with him cause "ganon is bad" is kinda a meme, also people don't like being combo food. 7-10 hits from a better character is equal to 3-5 hits from ganon. Whats the point of the crazy 10 hit combos if you are just gonna kill by edge guarding with a shine spike (something you can do at 0 percent). People just don't like the playstyle. But I will say that the feeling of being in flow state as ganon is better than any other character i've played. Ganon is a character that works best with patient players. Also has the sauciest shmovement imo.
Damn you brought up great points and yes patience is key with Ganondorf and heavies in general
I would have rather waited for him to come in Brawl. He's been stuck like this for *20 years.*
He needs a rework badly its depressing
Basically he is bottom tier in brawl and onwards because his mobility was nerfed and the changes with the games’ mechanics! But I still believe that Ganon is better than Little Mac!
Yeah atleast Ganondorf can fight in the air
Ganon is easily the most disrespected character in the smash bros series. Does he really have to be bad in every game he’s in?
I've no idea how through 4 games they never gave Ganon his own lore-based B moves.
All 4 of his moves should have changed when going from Melee to Brawl.
Like from the OoT fight, he could have a reflect ability with his cape, he can levitate, he can create and throw a electric ball, and he can slam the ground and create a shock wave. Make those his 4 special moves and you have a way better character.
They claim lack of resources and time, but I think they just don't give a shit
@ParaplegicKeanuReeves that may make sense as an excuse for brawl, but for ultimate they did rework Ganon, just not the B moves.
20:00 I would not say ultimates competitive environment is very fast at all, they have top 8’s that last 5-6 hours.
Ganondorf really had it rough.
Why everyone loves ganondorf
1: he is a clone of captain falcon
2: he’s been the most improved character since 4
3: DORIYAH
2 is blatantly wrong. You've got characters like Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Palutena, Pac-Man, and Shulk who have all been massively buffed from 4, way more than Ganondorf
Lifelong Bowser and Ganondorf main here. We have to work for it, but there's scarcely anything more satisfying in Smash than absolutely demolishing someone with a side smash or a Warlock Punch.
Ganondorf will never make it out of the trenches
Something interesting about Sm4sh Ganondorf is that I don't think Bowser can escape side-b. Regardless of whether Bowser techs or not or which direction he techs, Ganondorf should always be able to follow up with a down-tilt because Bowser's tech frame data was bad and didn't give enough intangibility or speed to avoid a Ganon down-tilt. I remember there was a time when Bowser was super popular to play as, and Ganondorf had a weirdly decent matchup against him. I'm not sure if any balance patches ended up changing this, as it was fairly early in the life-span of Sm4sh when I found this out.
1. Who's Children's Link ?
2. The reason why Ganondorf was nerfed in the PAL version of Melee is because he was ranked 12th on the very first tier list.
> Who's Children's Link ?
As the pools for new characters were voted back then in Japan, the tables listed here are translations from Japanese to English.
So in this case Children's Link seems like a weird translation of こどもリンク (Kodomo Link) or Child Link. So basically it is Young Link, that was indeed added to Melee later.
@@haitike Thank you.
he was probably nerfed because he was killing new players super easily
One of the main reasons he got needed in Brawl was because Sakuirai mained him in melee, but since he was so good at the game he could not play with his friends, so then he nerfed him
Crazy to think about how every Zelda character voted for on the Smash 2 Poll made it into Melee except for Darunia.
the only thing that can save ganondorf now is a full on overhaul hopefully in giving him a reflect like mario's cape
I just realized they put link in 64 and going into Melee, no doubt in part due to popular demand, added 3 (technically 4 now) Zelda reps to melee on top of Link.
It's like how people look at the Fire Emblem representation in modern Smash but Legend of Zelda also happens to be arguably the GOAT of gaming so we're okay with it.
Yeah and then they proceeded to never add a real legend of zelda character into smash bros again. Sure there's Toon Link but he's a clone. And two of the Newcomers in Melee were clones as well. I think myself and other Zelda fans who play smash bros would've rather had only 2 new unique Zelda reps in Brawl, and gotten new unique zelda characters in brawl and smash 4 instead of getting a bunch of clones in the beginning and never getting anymore characters after that.
Wow, I didn't know the model for him was from the same commercial thing as the sword!
It's probably not the *exact* same model. Just used the same design
@@iponce2 Yeah that
aerial side-b is the suicide-b
ayo i see you with the movement in g major footage
I'm sorry, but Ult Ganondorf is an unquestionable downgrade from S4. Nearly his entire moveset was either unchanged or nerfed for Ultimate, and his speed boosts don't matter due to everyone else also getting faster. He also has an even worse matchup spread and less notable results, despite the fact that Ultimate has now surpassed Smash 4's competitive lifespan. Still way better than Brawl Ganon, but he falls short of his 4 incarnation in nearly every way.
Wish I could swap Wario with Ganondorf in the timeline where Wario is kinda a clone of Mario but gets changes each game and Ganondorf is unique from Brawl
His biggest problem is he's way too slow and having that same crap recovery doesn't help. Neither does him being in the same weight class as Bowser and Donkey Kong. How he didn't get that jump activated float like Peach is beyond me........
Nice video 🔥
16:44 one of the most (___) ass changes?
You could probably make a better version of ganon just using other characters moves
Ganon shouldve had mewtwos moves
Awesome Smash video!
I’d have to Say, next to the Echo Fighters (with the Exception Ken and Richter), Bowser, Sonic and Donkey Kong, Ganondorf is one of the top Most poorly executed playable fighters.
Put blue pig Ganon with his trident in Smash! If Sakurai isn’t going to give Dorf his own moveset 😒.
Super armor on everything
Dorf
I feel like at this point, I’m 50/50 to Ganon having a fully original move set. On one side, yes, it’s long overdue and there’s so much material they could use. On the other hand, Ganon’s clone moveset has become so iconic that I feel like it’ll be difficult to change since it’s so tied to his smash identity. Warlock Punch is such a meme move that’s fun when you pull it off. Flamechoke is honestly cool as hell. And his Dair is just chefs kiss. Idk, this is a tough call lmao
Why does he have so many little strange editing mistakes?
Poor Ganon can't escape mid.
He isn’t even good enough to be considered mid, he’s just that bad
I wish he could at least reach mid.
He's only mid in Melee because of L canceling, the falcon kick/wizkick double jump restoration bug and because he's the closest to Falcon he's ever been lmao.
Ironically the further he strayed from Falcon's moveset, the further down the tier list he fell.