Wow, a d8 at the end of EACH of your turns is powerful. As a perma martial player i really appreciate the love the martials are getting. Keep it up Coach❤. Yesterday i bought the 2 editions of DC20 magazine cuz I cant wait for 0.9 and I needed more content after I made a character for each class to learn the system better.
D6 would have still been crazy this feels a little heavy but we will have to see in practice. He specifically said he’s was scared of giving static bonuses to hit, now this isn’t exactly that but I feel like as a fighter you should just bank everything on one powerful attack every round since you can have such a huge bonus to hit with it. Give advantage power attack spend sp on something and swing at 2d20 + 1d8 every time I possibly could
Does the d8 roll have to be declared before the To Hit roll or at any point? i.e. Can a player wait to find out if the attack hits before declaring the d8 roll?
If he is comparing it to superiority dice from DND then it should be before you roll anything that you declare it. Some fighter maneuvers if I remember correctly in DND allow you to do it after the roll but the default is before. I think it would make sense to do it before. I am still not too sure about a whole ass d8 every turn but we will see. @@el_condoro
I love the class fantasy of the fighter as someone who is all about well, fighting. They are always on the look out for fights, and no matter where they are they are always ready, at any moment, to throw down. Its simple, but it definitely gives the fighter character that it lacks in most other gaming systems. The fighter isnt just the generic class, its the class for characters who give their all to fighting, and the start of combat ability really shows this off. They dont just do their turn like everybody else, they jump head first into it, its like theyre a half step ahead of everyone else. For every other class, combat starts when it starts, but fighters dont see it starting, cause theyre already there, theyve seen the situation through the lens of a fight since the begining, cause thats how they see the world all the time. Fights never come out of the blue for them, because theyre always expecting one.
I feel like having combat readiness again and stamina is good for second wind because it gives that whole feature another use in battle and plays into the theme of a “second wind” like how you might start fresh again with that readiness.
I'm very much a fan of this rework. I like how it gives the Fighter lots of options. Offensive/Defensive, lots of Maneuvers and Techniques. It feels like so much more of what the fantasy of being this type of Fighter should be. I haven't played a straight Fighter since AD&D but I'd be tempted to play this one. But then, I want to build and play most of the classes lol!
Excellent rework. A free extra d8 on each of your turns is too powerful, though. Make it a d4 and perhaps it can scale with level. This feature should make the fighter a tougher opponent, but not invincible.
Yeah, action surge seemed really strong to me especially for Fighters seeing how they regain stanima by performing maneuvers (and not succeeding at them necessarily). So a duel weilder could attack twice doing 2 maneuvers getting 2 stanima and using those for 2 more action
In my playe test i always found it a little underpowered. Yes it can be nice for certain combinations but most of the time you were better of spam your technique wich is balanced to be equally to 2-3 Action points
The thing is that now any nonfighter can grab Master-at-Arms Talent to get imideately 1SP, 3 manneuvres and 2 Techniques. So it`ll become a no-brainer default Martial Multiclass Talent for everybody (just like Attribute Increases in Ancestry system)
That MAY be a problem from a design stand-point, but thematically that makes perfect sense honestly. Someone who has decided to dedicate further time/resources to developing mastery in martial abilities probably would land there after enough time practicing
@@zacharyharwell351 the problem isnt what they get, but that it is all "one" talent/feature. It just needs to be split up a little bit to make it more even with other options.
I kinda feel like the biggest issue with a fighter in any game is the name. "Fighter" has just always sounded like a Mook class name. Something like Warrior, Soldier, Battlemaster, or the like makes it feel more like a specialist and not just a guy that fights
I feel like the word Master gets used too much (might just be my middle school trauma, we where definitely told to not do that... a lot). Maybe change it to Manoeuvre Training and Technique Flow (like you get into the flow of combat and you perform a technique with less effort) or Practised Technique.
A d8 every round seems very powerful. Perhaps I'm just still too new to this system and it's math but (assuming Offence) it's an average of +4.5 to your rolls. Noting that beating the enemy's AC by 5 gets the... heavier hit (I forgot the name) this d8 is on average, doing that heavy lifting alone. If you math out the probability spread, its a pretty large swing
Yeah it seems a bit much, i guess he playtested it to be balanced but to me seems pretty strong. I guess you could say the same for a lot of level 2 features so who knows
I loved the version of the second wind to regain hit points equal to your prime since it follows you for the latter level…but the rest is actually pretty good
I definitely prefer this one over the last one, but I still miss the fighting styles. If I want to do a one handed weapon fighter + free hand, it feels like I'd be handicapping myself.
When I think of what is core to a fighter I think Soldier. A thematic feature for a fighter could be the ability to soldier on. Either occasionally downgrade the severity of a blow a single step or to mitigate exhaustion on long journeys.
Hey Coach, I like what you’re doing here with the Fighter. I do picture them as being resilient highly capable warriors who can do things no one else can. I think it’s important to give them a lot of broad options to show that they are masters of all weapons, but I also think it’s important to show that they are also highly practiced and can do things less trained people cannot. Is there a reason we don’t see fighting styles or specialized bonuses/abilities, or upgrades to maneuvers/techniques that they get, perhaps only to a specific weapon? I understand you want the game to not force you to do one thing so you could let them switch it every long rest, pick every time they roll initiative, or something. I like having lots of maneuvers, but in the end, if I’m a fighter with a maul and the associated maneuver, I’m no better than the barbarian who uses a maul and the same maneuver even though he has fewer options. I feel that the fighter should use weapons best not just have the most options. I understand that they have the stances and adaptive tactics, but those feel more broad and the barbarian also has stuff that gives them advantage and bonuses to damage or options to reduce damage. As a fighter, I want to be able to do something the other martials can’t do, not just roll with advantage and add a d8 bonus. I think that rage, and a monks ki points feel a lot more thematic than stances and a boost die. I think Fighters need their own thing. What excited me the most about Fighters in 5e, was the extra ASIs that allowed me to choose additional feats. I could have more feats and the best feats sooner than any other character and thus I could do things no other martials could do. The fighting style helped to distinguish the Fighter from the Barbarian, Second Wind/Indomitable showed their unique form of resilience which was different from rage/evasion/healing hands, and their multiple attacks they got at later levels enabled them to do more damage with weapons even though they weren’t getting damage boosts from spells/sneak attack/rage. It felt thematic to me and I like stances better for the monk. Maybe keep the boost die and change the stances to something else and allow them to pick more class talents as they level up. I also think they should get to attack again without the attack penalty at later levels and make their mental saving throws.
Just DMd the one shot with my group for the first time yesterday! We had a lot of fun. Not the video topic for it, but we definitely feel like the beastkin are overtuned with no real reason to not play them if youre minmaxing, outside of RP. One of my players made a flying squirrel with free move and jump minor actions and man was he MOVIN. Cant wait for more updates!
I love the rework, and I'm a big fan. One minor point: Deflect is a defensive action that becomes important on the enemy's turn, not the player's turn. The way it is written is a bit confusing, since it assumes it is relevant on the player's turn. Similarly, with Brace, the player doesn't need the Dodge Action on their turn, but it should last until the start of their next turn, since that's when the enemy will try to hit them. Keep up the great work.
I have an idea of how action surgre can work in DC20 Were D&D action surge doubles your action roll for that turn (like if can attack 3x in your action, surge will make it 6) For DC20 action surge is for a speed figther subclass were it just gives you only a +1 attack roll for that turn (+2 in higher levels)
One thought for that weapon-swap subclass, if you eventually work on that, is that you could combine it with the more general scrappy, improvised fighter archetype. In the fight scenes in most Hollywood movies, the combatants are constantly using their surroundings in the course of the fight (think pirates of the Caribbean or the more recent DND movie). It would be cool to have a subclass that generally benefits from swapping/improvising weapons that could replicate that feel.
Really like the rework My only thought was to see if Second Wind might work better as a pool of resources that you can draw from instead of a once-per-combat effect. The pool would refill at the start of combat. Pro: more versatility without a bump in strength. Con: slightly more complicated.
I feel like you should get the benefit of the dodge action when you roll initiative, rather than the start of your first turn. There would be those times a monster would go before you, attack, then on your turn you take the free dodge action. It doesnt seem like they were ready to me.
Hey! I lile my sticker slap on hoodie XD seriously will be keeping that hoodie and shirts I have in pristine condition! Course I'm in the the waiting list for the hoodie version of said upgrade XD
I love that a offensive or defensive Fighter is completely viable in DC20. One of my favourite characters I have made in DC20 is named Fank Tighter. I think you can guess what his build is 😅
Seems weird that you made the first level features start of turn and the 2nd level features end of turn. Felt like you were making start of turn refresh the fighter thing, but changed your mind halfway thru
Really looking forward to the final product! A D8 to PD or Attack roll is a little over tuned in my opinion. Maybe a number of times equal to your prime mod or even a D4
hello, does the d8 bonus to pd last till start of next turn or only for one attack ? looks good so far - had a oneshot a week ago and the martials were very pleased with the action system far more group synergy - sorry if english is bad - i'm from germany
Love the changes. My only suggestion is to evaluate if a single use feature shouldn't scale with level somehow. Maybe second wind should be half your level of uses? Might be too OP. Maybe after the first of the combat it requires an action point? Not sure. Anyways, keep up the great work.
Just have the Fighter’s Lv1 technique and extra maneuvers as well as the Sorcerer’s extra mana on their class table. It’s a class table not a Martial/Spellcaster table.
Defiantly agree, make sure all that stuff is in one location so it doesn't get confusing. You can still mention it in the feature just add wordage that says "as displayed in class table".
@@chacha4343 then just say you get the highest number from each chart If everything else would be the same and like the other guy said you can still have the feature and just end it with “As shown on the Fighter/Sorcerer Class table.
I really like the idea of Action Surge, but maybe it's unnecessary in DC20. With the much lower HP and everything, I don't think it's necessary to be able to make like 6 attacks in a normal turn lol. MAYBE it could become a high level ability instead? I wouldn't mind like "Overwhelming Flurry - you can make up to 6 attacks without the normal multi-attack penalty" (Obviously something like a spell imposing Disadvantage would still do so) and that could just be like a max level feature. I don't remember if your system also goes to level 20 or not... but having this somewhere between 17-20 or the equivalent as a "capstone feature" might be cool. Maybe just for a specific subclass? Maybe for the whole Class. Idk. I don't have a group to playtest with to check the balance but I think it seems cool in theory, at least.
I love most of those changes, but I am still worried about the oversaturation of maneuvers (mans). If I fighter went straight fighter all the way to level 10, that would be 12 mans if I calculated that right. 12 out of the 19 total. Now, having all of the save mans is great as that is just versatility, but not everyone wants the grapple mans, and not all the defense mans work with every build. You may want to consider a boost to already chosen mans instead of an increase to total mans. Otherwise I am loving that new fighter
I love all of the changes with only one caveat. In regards to the Fighter's - Fighting Spirit - Combat Readiness - Brace option: Why is Brace all Saves and not just Physical Saves? In light of it's alternative Advance which gives ADV on only Physical Checks (MIG, AGI & Martial Checks). Brace seems over powered in comparison to it's alternative Advance, to the point that people playing Fighters would only ever choose Brace at this option point. Can you please reply as to how this is an actual comparative decision point between the two Brace or Advance, when the weight of Brace is obviously superior being that it is ADV on all Saves?
Because ADV on a Physical Save could be applied to your first Attack Check. (Attack Checks count as Physical Checks, and Spell Checks count as Mental Checks.) That alone would entice people to pick Advance.
In my experience running DC20, Physical Checks are not only useful for attack rolls and skill checks, but also for Grappling, Disarming, Shoving, and Tackling, both offensively and defensively as the rules are check vs check instead of check vs save. This is especially useful if you want to use a grapple maneuver and must stick the grappled condition first. This can also affect your taunt maneuver as you can choose an attack check and therefore gain the benefits of that ADV.
Do we have an estimated date for the full version? I'm a Kickstarter, but not for the beta versions (I'm afraid I would get all confused among the different rules and versions, so I'm waiting for the final).
Its mostly fine ad least alone. I playd a bard last one shot. I used the help action every time for our frontline Spellblade for there attacks and it didn’t break the encounter. Yes its a little better action economy wise but that doesn’t change to much. But a Bard and Fight together could be problematic.
@@Umbra_Canine The more I think about it, even with reducing the die to a 1d6 this is broken to have every round. In 2024 DND there is a level 19 epic boon to turn a miss into a hit once per round. This class feature is even more powerful than that epic boon due to the nature of how attack rolls function in dc20. Yes, it is possible to roll a 1 or a 2 and not get any real benefit. However, the average roll is 4.5 which is more than likely enough to turn a hit into a critical hit or a critical hit into a brutal hit EVERY round for no real recourse cost. You can keep it at 1d8, but this should be once per combat with the ability to use 1 SP to do it again in the same combat.
@@TheJayTeeGeeThere was a old weapon maneuver that give a attack a d8. There is a class the recover Stamina with help action with the commander wich encourages a player to help every round wich can gives a attack a d8. There is the guidance spell with give a d8. This d8 is backed in the general balance of the game. Yes this feature is strong because it gives this bonus for better action economy. But in a 4 Player Party. You can have a other martial the get the help from a other player every round. But this increases the AP economy from 15 to 16 its not that big of a deal. And this d8 will function like every other Attaks Bonus in the game. You have to choose this bonus before rolling. So it doesn’t turn a miss in a hit. And there is a feature from the Sorcerer that give all Spell a +5 for Spell Attacks or Spell Save even with a chance to get some temporary exhaustion. So there are features that can be Argumente to be stronger.
I haven't played the system yet but a d8 per every turn at level two sounds broken/OP as hell. Seeing as talents let you take class features, this would be a obvious pick for every martial class to take from. Even spellcasters would find this useful to debuff any martial attacker.
This...makes me so glad I didn't back the kickstarter. The version of DC20 that those people get looks like it'll be vastly different than the version they liked and paid for. I Defiantly made the right decision to wait til the retail version drops and then check it out to see if the final version is still something I'd like to spend my money on.
I don’t feel the game has changed at its core and I’m not worried at all that I somehow will wind up having paid for something I don’t want. We’re still play-testing and now is the time to try new mechanics and see if we like them. The final game that gets released is going to be a good one because the foundation has already been laid and I think it is quite sound.
Glad to see Action Surge rested in peace. It didn't match class flavor at all, so that's a good point. But at the same time it feels like Fighter is just a regular Martial with extra Maneuvers. 1 Technique doesn't feel unique enough to fill the class-specific ability. Also, the Combat Readiness at least for me feels too specific, and it's only available at the first turn. However, Adaptive Tactics is really cool, I like it as a Class Feature! (Nature's Rest is crying at the corner)
The Fighting Spirit is weak because it's only once per combat. It would better if all martial could get 4 maneuvers, but the fighter can get all, or more than 5.
I like it, the fighter in 0.8 looked like a good character, but very bland. This has more of an identity. It feels very heroic, like fighting it out against all odds.
I agree, I feel like less classes (with more subclasses per class) might be better. More like what old school dnd was. Warrior, Magic User and Rogue then use the “multiclassing”, feats and subclasses to differentiate them. Especially since the system already has the prime modifier concept (cleric and wizard are not that different and could be subclasses since they can have the same prime modifier).
These features look cool. Two notes though. 1) Second Wind and Combat Readiness don't feel like they belong in the same ability. Feels a bit tacked on imho. 2) I think Second wind should trigger if combat ends and you still have it and are bloodied. It would be a real downer to try and use it tactically and then be punished when the combat ends before your next turn.
For me a fighter will always be like Link, they use a lot of extra items they find throughout their journey to keep up with their allies I would love to see adaptive arsenal allow you to just freely swap whats in your hand like quick draw in 3.5 kinda does, as even in OSR I will always be loading my fighter up with random things I can find like alchemists fire, or a flute that if you learn how to play it activates a shatter spell, ect. It's also why in dnd i've always wanted a decent str/dex combo despite most going for one or the other + con cause I like to be an archer one minute and a melee the next. Fighters are natural with weapons/armor and to me have always been about upgrading their arsenal with weapon, armor, and item alike, it's a shame more games don't actually give fighters proper item features. I think giving fighters an ability to augment their own equipment taking the load of the GM would be the superior choice, a class who's unique abilities are to take a magic sword or armor and improve upon it's design for their own uses would be great and fit much better as fighter fantasy imo as what you describe as taking hits is more barbarian fantasy (it's why they get the shiny d12 instead of d10 in 5e as in theory your supposed to AVOID getting hit as a fighter) Personally the issue I find fighter suffers from is many people mix the barbarian fantasy with the fighter fantasy. I feel like the guy who gets hit and gets back up with no "I didn't hear no bell" is often in reality the barbarian fantasy, when the reality is fighters are adaptable people who bring the right tool for the job or put all their eggs into one weapon and enhance their bodies with alchemy, armor, or other items/enhancements they find as they are by all means a common warrior gifted with exceptional training likely from a young age like knights or a warrior of circumstance thrown into a chaotic life due to w/e circumstances. Other fighters instead might incorporate charisma to be warlords and help lead a battlefield with tatical knowledge and support perhaps carrying horns to give signals or other abilities to enhance their party (which ttrpgs could do with more of). While some other fighters use a combination of their wits or innate luck mixed with their weapons of choice. It's not to say a fighter can't take a hit but they definitely rely more heavily on getting the job done with weapons not actively wanting to get hit and hoping w/e armor they brought doesn't give out or that they can parry or deflect blows with their weapon/shield. To me notable fighters are, Brian Unglaus, Link, Monster Hunter series player characters, Theo Cornaro, Boromir, Luke Skywalker (though more an eld knight due to jedi, if you watch how he fights vadar it's not about tanking hits it's about using his surroundings and still being outclassed by a superior foe), Ash Williams, Trevor Belmont, Isaac Clarke, Samus Aran, Kiryu as a brawler type of fighter as he uses anything he can pick up as a weapon, Sokka, ect (surprisingly a lot of fighters in media haha). The key component to improving fighter I feel is to improve on their defense issue, the issue fighters have in other rpgs is they often get a bunch of AC only to have problems the moment they need to dodge something (ya know the thing they should equally be good at) as they only seem to get good saves against poisons, diseases, and such. They also suffer from a weak will which is odd as a fighter's will should be quite strong in most cases. Ultimately fighters should be an adaptable force on the battle field using weapons and items in tow, with baked in class features to take the load off allowing fighters to tinker with their equipment or gain access to interesting utility items such as "create a hookshoot" or a boomerang that functions like a stunning strike manuever or maybe they enhance themself with a potion for a combat, or they learn lesser magics that require a weapon to function like a fire arrow or learn to make a more advanced weapon or limb that allows them to augment themself further ect. They should have a stalwart defense making it hard to land hits on them, and have features that aid them by spending stamina to push past charm or other will effects, and allow them to prevent taking full damage from pesky dex saves. This may require rebalancing the fighter to a d8 hit die though a d10 should still suffice but would fit heavily more into what a fighter is, they don't want to get hit they wear all that armor so they DONT get hit otherwise they'd be a barbarian in hide armor or w/e haha. It's this adaptable nature and stalwart defense that is supposed to allow them to excel next to their caster buddies, and in OSR they generally did cause they had the best atk bonus outshining clerics chance to hit and access to the heaviest armor making hitting them difficult. The issue was as new classes got added to the fold fighter needed an identity badly and WOTC and many other rpg designers just never bothered often making them "diet barbarian" and so far it seems dc20 is going the same direction. PF2e took a different stance by making barbarian less tanky and letting fighter take the tank roll, an interesting choice though I find many now don't enjoy the barbarian in pf2e as a big part of the barbarian fantasy was their tanky ragey nature. The other big issue fighter suffers from is no other class gets looked at harsher by "realism" players than fighter meanwhile every other class is freely allowed to dance in fantasy land letting their features get more and more crazy while fighter gets screwed in this "grounded" approach. Fighter is an interesting beast, one that I feel needs completely overhauled but I doubt i'll see such a thing in the ttrpg world.
So the changes boil down to you do the basic martial stuff better then everyone else, and you get a bump at the start of combat. Level two is i have bigger numbers then you. I will would have to playtest to see how these feel, are they equivalent to other class features. My initial concern is that a boost at the beginning of combat is the only thing that truly transforms how you play. Monk stances, barb rage, druid domains, warlord aura change how you play the game dramatically, does a few more maneuvers, a boost at the start of combat, and bigger numbers do the same? They very well could I would just need to see it in playtest. An idea for you that might take fighter to the next level: When a fighter uses a maneuver they also get 1 space of movement or can move the enemy 1 space (maybe both depending on how strong you think it is, maybe you pick one and don't give the choice to keep it simple). This means that the fighter doesn't just know more maneuverers then the other classes, they preform them at one step above everyone else. It isn't bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers, it adds a lot of character to how they fight, and it allows them to always be the tactician on the battlefield, making the small moves that turn into big changes on the battlefield. Just an idea for you, take it or leave it. Love what you do coach.
Hurts to say, but you missed the mark here. Not only feels uninspired but also underpowered. You should try to come back to fighters after finishing the techniques.
Looks good. Please fix Sorcerer, Warlock, and Barbarian, all increasing/reducing the value of some primes next. And please make the rouges talent Evasion. Cheap shot seems alot more twards the class fantasy than Evasion, and I'd hate to see it be the other way around.
This class still doesn't feel anywhere as exciting as the other classes. I don't think the features capture much fighter energy, they feel like just about any other martial class. _and I still don't like how you can't seem to move 5 feet in your videos without trying to sell me your game. Again. I'm watching this video. I'm already invested._
The Fighting Spirit is weak because it's only once per combat. It would better if all martial could get 4 maneuvers, but the fighter can get all, or more than 5.
![⭐️( ลอยกระทง 2024 ) Ver. แดนซ์ Remix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rMWOLhgXUHc/mqdefault.jpg)
Wow, a d8 at the end of EACH of your turns is powerful. As a perma martial player i really appreciate the love the martials are getting. Keep it up Coach❤. Yesterday i bought the 2 editions of DC20 magazine cuz I cant wait for 0.9 and I needed more content after I made a character for each class to learn the system better.
D6 would have still been crazy this feels a little heavy but we will have to see in practice. He specifically said he’s was scared of giving static bonuses to hit, now this isn’t exactly that but I feel like as a fighter you should just bank everything on one powerful attack every round since you can have such a huge bonus to hit with it. Give advantage power attack spend sp on something and swing at 2d20 + 1d8 every time I possibly could
I've played DnD since the 80s. DC20 is the FIRST time I've ever been excited about playing a Ranger.
Does the d8 roll have to be declared before the To Hit roll or at any point? i.e. Can a player wait to find out if the attack hits before declaring the d8 roll?
If he is comparing it to superiority dice from DND then it should be before you roll anything that you declare it. Some fighter maneuvers if I remember correctly in DND allow you to do it after the roll but the default is before. I think it would make sense to do it before. I am still not too sure about a whole ass d8 every turn but we will see. @@el_condoro
I'm glad you guys are freeing yourselves from 5e and the features classes had in that system.
I love the class fantasy of the fighter as someone who is all about well, fighting.
They are always on the look out for fights, and no matter where they are they are always ready, at any moment, to throw down.
Its simple, but it definitely gives the fighter character that it lacks in most other gaming systems.
The fighter isnt just the generic class, its the class for characters who give their all to fighting, and the start of combat ability really shows this off. They dont just do their turn like everybody else, they jump head first into it, its like theyre a half step ahead of everyone else. For every other class, combat starts when it starts, but fighters dont see it starting, cause theyre already there, theyve seen the situation through the lens of a fight since the begining, cause thats how they see the world all the time. Fights never come out of the blue for them, because theyre always expecting one.
I like this rework, although it feels weird that Second wind doesnt have the option of refreshing combat readiness instead of giving stamina.
I feel like having combat readiness again and stamina is good for second wind because it gives that whole feature another use in battle and plays into the theme of a “second wind” like how you might start fresh again with that readiness.
Start of combat refreshes skills because adrenaline, and second wind is an adrenaline rush
I could see that being higher level ability, remember, still only level 2 haha
I said it in the Patreon livestream this came from, but I LOVE the fighter rework, feels much more like a fighter!
I'm very much a fan of this rework. I like how it gives the Fighter lots of options. Offensive/Defensive, lots of Maneuvers and Techniques. It feels like so much more of what the fantasy of being this type of Fighter should be. I haven't played a straight Fighter since AD&D but I'd be tempted to play this one. But then, I want to build and play most of the classes lol!
Still hoping for a DC20 hat! I want a flat brim with them embossed logo dragon popping out!
Excellent rework. A free extra d8 on each of your turns is too powerful, though. Make it a d4 and perhaps it can scale with level. This feature should make the fighter a tougher opponent, but not invincible.
Yeah, action surge seemed really strong to me especially for Fighters seeing how they regain stanima by performing maneuvers (and not succeeding at them necessarily). So a duel weilder could attack twice doing 2 maneuvers getting 2 stanima and using those for 2 more action
In my playe test i always found it a little underpowered. Yes it can be nice for certain combinations but most of the time you were better of spam your technique wich is balanced to be equally to 2-3 Action points
@@Umbra_Canine Fair, though those new action points you can use your techniques with.
The thing is that now any nonfighter can grab Master-at-Arms Talent to get imideately 1SP, 3 manneuvres and 2 Techniques.
So it`ll become a no-brainer default Martial Multiclass Talent for everybody (just like Attribute Increases in Ancestry system)
That MAY be a problem from a design stand-point, but thematically that makes perfect sense honestly. Someone who has decided to dedicate further time/resources to developing mastery in martial abilities probably would land there after enough time practicing
@@zacharyharwell351 the problem isnt what they get, but that it is all "one" talent/feature. It just needs to be split up a little bit to make it more even with other options.
My dad is playing a dwarf fighter in our upcoming DC20 campaign.
I kinda feel like the biggest issue with a fighter in any game is the name. "Fighter" has just always sounded like a Mook class name. Something like Warrior, Soldier, Battlemaster, or the like makes it feel more like a specialist and not just a guy that fights
Kind of yes. Everybody fights. Everyone else is about how they fight. Fighter is just about that they do.
If a normie saw someone in full plate armour they would call them a knight.
I feel like the word Master gets used too much (might just be my middle school trauma, we where definitely told to not do that... a lot).
Maybe change it to Manoeuvre Training and Technique Flow (like you get into the flow of combat and you perform a technique with less effort) or Practised Technique.
I really hope coach see this comment. It’s a small thing but i really like this as a general improvement.
A d8 every round seems very powerful. Perhaps I'm just still too new to this system and it's math but (assuming Offence) it's an average of +4.5 to your rolls. Noting that beating the enemy's AC by 5 gets the... heavier hit (I forgot the name) this d8 is on average, doing that heavy lifting alone. If you math out the probability spread, its a pretty large swing
Yeah it seems a bit much, i guess he playtested it to be balanced but to me seems pretty strong.
I guess you could say the same for a lot of level 2 features so who knows
I loved the version of the second wind to regain hit points equal to your prime since it follows you for the latter level…but the rest is actually pretty good
As always, thank you for keeping us posted on DC20. :)
I definitely prefer this one over the last one, but I still miss the fighting styles. If I want to do a one handed weapon fighter + free hand, it feels like I'd be handicapping myself.
Great rework. Makes the fighter seem better at, well, fighting
When I think of what is core to a fighter I think Soldier. A thematic feature for a fighter could be the ability to soldier on. Either occasionally downgrade the severity of a blow a single step or to mitigate exhaustion on long journeys.
Hey Coach, I like what you’re doing here with the Fighter. I do picture them as being resilient highly capable warriors who can do things no one else can. I think it’s important to give them a lot of broad options to show that they are masters of all weapons, but I also think it’s important to show that they are also highly practiced and can do things less trained people cannot. Is there a reason we don’t see fighting styles or specialized bonuses/abilities, or upgrades to maneuvers/techniques that they get, perhaps only to a specific weapon? I understand you want the game to not force you to do one thing so you could let them switch it every long rest, pick every time they roll initiative, or something. I like having lots of maneuvers, but in the end, if I’m a fighter with a maul and the associated maneuver, I’m no better than the barbarian who uses a maul and the same maneuver even though he has fewer options. I feel that the fighter should use weapons best not just have the most options. I understand that they have the stances and adaptive tactics, but those feel more broad and the barbarian also has stuff that gives them advantage and bonuses to damage or options to reduce damage. As a fighter, I want to be able to do something the other martials can’t do, not just roll with advantage and add a d8 bonus. I think that rage, and a monks ki points feel a lot more thematic than stances and a boost die. I think Fighters need their own thing. What excited me the most about Fighters in 5e, was the extra ASIs that allowed me to choose additional feats. I could have more feats and the best feats sooner than any other character and thus I could do things no other martials could do. The fighting style helped to distinguish the Fighter from the Barbarian, Second Wind/Indomitable showed their unique form of resilience which was different from rage/evasion/healing hands, and their multiple attacks they got at later levels enabled them to do more damage with weapons even though they weren’t getting damage boosts from spells/sneak attack/rage. It felt thematic to me and I like stances better for the monk. Maybe keep the boost die and change the stances to something else and allow them to pick more class talents as they level up. I also think they should get to attack again without the attack penalty at later levels and make their mental saving throws.
That's what I'm talking about!!!
Yes! Coach, I Love These short Update Videos! Thank you 🎉
Just DMd the one shot with my group for the first time yesterday! We had a lot of fun.
Not the video topic for it, but we definitely feel like the beastkin are overtuned with no real reason to not play them if youre minmaxing, outside of RP. One of my players made a flying squirrel with free move and jump minor actions and man was he MOVIN.
Cant wait for more updates!
There's a saying where I came from : a man who doesn't make mistakes, doesn't make anything. Keep going Coach.
I love the rework, and I'm a big fan. One minor point: Deflect is a defensive action that becomes important on the enemy's turn, not the player's turn. The way it is written is a bit confusing, since it assumes it is relevant on the player's turn. Similarly, with Brace, the player doesn't need the Dodge Action on their turn, but it should last until the start of their next turn, since that's when the enemy will try to hit them.
Keep up the great work.
I have an idea of how action surgre can work in DC20
Were D&D action surge doubles your action roll for that turn (like if can attack 3x in your action, surge will make it 6)
For DC20 action surge is for a speed figther subclass were it just gives you only a +1 attack roll for that turn (+2 in higher levels)
One thought for that weapon-swap subclass, if you eventually work on that, is that you could combine it with the more general scrappy, improvised fighter archetype. In the fight scenes in most Hollywood movies, the combatants are constantly using their surroundings in the course of the fight (think pirates of the Caribbean or the more recent DND movie). It would be cool to have a subclass that generally benefits from swapping/improvising weapons that could replicate that feel.
The Fighter is sounding fairly interesting. Keep up the great work!
Really like the rework
My only thought was to see if Second Wind might work better as a pool of resources that you can draw from instead of a once-per-combat effect. The pool would refill at the start of combat. Pro: more versatility without a bump in strength. Con: slightly more complicated.
I feel like you should get the benefit of the dodge action when you roll initiative, rather than the start of your first turn. There would be those times a monster would go before you, attack, then on your turn you take the free dodge action. It doesnt seem like they were ready to me.
ROUND 20...... FIGHT!!!!
Hey! I lile my sticker slap on hoodie XD seriously will be keeping that hoodie and shirts I have in pristine condition!
Course I'm in the the waiting list for the hoodie version of said upgrade XD
I love that a offensive or defensive Fighter is completely viable in DC20. One of my favourite characters I have made in DC20 is named Fank Tighter. I think you can guess what his build is 😅
Seems weird that you made the first level features start of turn and the 2nd level features end of turn. Felt like you were making start of turn refresh the fighter thing, but changed your mind halfway thru
Really looking forward to the final product!
A D8 to PD or Attack roll is a little over tuned in my opinion. Maybe a number of times equal to your prime mod or even a D4
You're doing great design work
I really hope the Commander gets a similar rework.
Great rework! But i will always be in the scrap fighter camp. Just a hold over from early dnd.
I would love to see a “Cursed One” sorcerer subclass, that’d be cool.
hello, does the d8 bonus to pd last till start of next turn or only for one attack ? looks good so far - had a oneshot a week ago and the martials were very pleased with the action system far more group synergy - sorry if english is bad - i'm from germany
Love it!
TL;DR
He attac
He protec
But most importantly
He rad as heck
I am so excited for this!!!!!!!!! Is it going to be available on Greece;;;
Love the changes. My only suggestion is to evaluate if a single use feature shouldn't scale with level somehow. Maybe second wind should be half your level of uses? Might be too OP. Maybe after the first of the combat it requires an action point? Not sure. Anyways, keep up the great work.
He already stated in some streams that most lv 5 class features will scales the lv 1&2 class features up.
Just have the Fighter’s Lv1 technique and extra maneuvers as well as the Sorcerer’s extra mana on their class table. It’s a class table not a Martial/Spellcaster table.
Defiantly agree, make sure all that stuff is in one location so it doesn't get confusing. You can still mention it in the feature just add wordage that says "as displayed in class table".
The reason behind that is so if you want to multiclass, you can pick up those features
@@chacha4343 then just say you get the highest number from each chart If everything else would be the same and like the other guy said you can still have the feature and just end it with “As shown on the Fighter/Sorcerer Class table.
I really like the idea of Action Surge, but maybe it's unnecessary in DC20. With the much lower HP and everything, I don't think it's necessary to be able to make like 6 attacks in a normal turn lol. MAYBE it could become a high level ability instead? I wouldn't mind like "Overwhelming Flurry - you can make up to 6 attacks without the normal multi-attack penalty" (Obviously something like a spell imposing Disadvantage would still do so) and that could just be like a max level feature. I don't remember if your system also goes to level 20 or not... but having this somewhere between 17-20 or the equivalent as a "capstone feature" might be cool. Maybe just for a specific subclass? Maybe for the whole Class. Idk. I don't have a group to playtest with to check the balance but I think it seems cool in theory, at least.
Looks good, when is estimated that 0.9 DC20 arrives? Thank you!
Really just want levels fleshed out past 3rd. Got 7 more levels to go
Let's Go!
I love most of those changes, but I am still worried about the oversaturation of maneuvers (mans). If I fighter went straight fighter all the way to level 10, that would be 12 mans if I calculated that right. 12 out of the 19 total. Now, having all of the save mans is great as that is just versatility, but not everyone wants the grapple mans, and not all the defense mans work with every build. You may want to consider a boost to already chosen mans instead of an increase to total mans. Otherwise I am loving that new fighter
I would love to get the shirt, but I'm simply not gonna be able to deal with that plus shipping plus customs here... shame.
Please give us the Rune Knight
Would Spell Blade not be sufficient for this concept though?
@@k.hibiki2175 your thinking of the Eldritch Knight, the Rune knight is giant themed and can become Large
$30 For shipping to Canada for a single shirt?
D8 for defence is bizzare and broken cant belive it its too strong !!
Brrrrrrring it!
I love all of the changes with only one caveat. In regards to the Fighter's - Fighting Spirit - Combat Readiness - Brace option: Why is Brace all Saves and not just Physical Saves? In light of it's alternative Advance which gives ADV on only Physical Checks (MIG, AGI & Martial Checks). Brace seems over powered in comparison to it's alternative Advance, to the point that people playing Fighters would only ever choose Brace at this option point. Can you please reply as to how this is an actual comparative decision point between the two Brace or Advance, when the weight of Brace is obviously superior being that it is ADV on all Saves?
Because ADV on a Physical Save could be applied to your first Attack Check. (Attack Checks count as Physical Checks, and Spell Checks count as Mental Checks.) That alone would entice people to pick Advance.
In my experience running DC20, Physical Checks are not only useful for attack rolls and skill checks, but also for Grappling, Disarming, Shoving, and Tackling, both offensively and defensively as the rules are check vs check instead of check vs save. This is especially useful if you want to use a grapple maneuver and must stick the grappled condition first. This can also affect your taunt maneuver as you can choose an attack check and therefore gain the benefits of that ADV.
ALGORITHM!!!
💜🐲💜🐧💜🐲💜
For whatever reason, I read this as Al Gore Rythm.
@@IrNaLann just for you:
c.tenor.com/5AIBZCac7LIAAAAM/al-gore-democratic-party.gif
Do we have an estimated date for the full version? I'm a Kickstarter, but not for the beta versions (I'm afraid I would get all confused among the different rules and versions, so I'm waiting for the final).
I am worried that Adaptive Tactics is too strong. Maybe it should be 1d6 instead of 1d8 to one attack or defense.
Its mostly fine ad least alone. I playd a bard last one shot. I used the help action every time for our frontline Spellblade for there attacks and it didn’t break the encounter. Yes its a little better action economy wise but that doesn’t change to much.
But a Bard and Fight together could be problematic.
@@Umbra_Canine The more I think about it, even with reducing the die to a 1d6 this is broken to have every round. In 2024 DND there is a level 19 epic boon to turn a miss into a hit once per round. This class feature is even more powerful than that epic boon due to the nature of how attack rolls function in dc20. Yes, it is possible to roll a 1 or a 2 and not get any real benefit. However, the average roll is 4.5 which is more than likely enough to turn a hit into a critical hit or a critical hit into a brutal hit EVERY round for no real recourse cost. You can keep it at 1d8, but this should be once per combat with the ability to use 1 SP to do it again in the same combat.
@@TheJayTeeGeeThere was a old weapon maneuver that give a attack a d8. There is a class the recover Stamina with help action with the commander wich encourages a player to help every round wich can gives a attack a d8. There is the guidance spell with give a d8. This d8 is backed in the general balance of the game.
Yes this feature is strong because it gives this bonus for better action economy.
But in a 4 Player Party. You can have a other martial the get the help from a other player every round. But this increases the AP economy from 15 to 16 its not that big of a deal.
And this d8 will function like every other Attaks Bonus in the game. You have to choose this bonus before rolling. So it doesn’t turn a miss in a hit.
And there is a feature from the Sorcerer that give all Spell a +5 for Spell Attacks or Spell Save even with a chance to get some temporary exhaustion. So there are features that can be Argumente to be stronger.
I haven't played the system yet but a d8 per every turn at level two sounds broken/OP as hell. Seeing as talents let you take class features, this would be a obvious pick for every martial class to take from. Even spellcasters would find this useful to debuff any martial attacker.
Must. Not. Do. The knuckle bit.
This...makes me so glad I didn't back the kickstarter. The version of DC20 that those people get looks like it'll be vastly different than the version they liked and paid for. I Defiantly made the right decision to wait til the retail version drops and then check it out to see if the final version is still something I'd like to spend my money on.
I don’t feel the game has changed at its core and I’m not worried at all that I somehow will wind up having paid for something I don’t want.
We’re still play-testing and now is the time to try new mechanics and see if we like them. The final game that gets released is going to be a good one because the foundation has already been laid and I think it is quite sound.
Glad to see Action Surge rested in peace. It didn't match class flavor at all, so that's a good point.
But at the same time it feels like Fighter is just a regular Martial with extra Maneuvers. 1 Technique doesn't feel unique enough to fill the class-specific ability. Also, the Combat Readiness at least for me feels too specific, and it's only available at the first turn.
However, Adaptive Tactics is really cool, I like it as a Class Feature! (Nature's Rest is crying at the corner)
GIVE ME MORE!
The Fighting Spirit is weak because it's only once per combat.
It would better if all martial could get 4 maneuvers, but the fighter can get all, or more than 5.
I like it, the fighter in 0.8 looked like a good character, but very bland. This has more of an identity. It feels very heroic, like fighting it out against all odds.
🙂👍🏻
10
Play Mythras.
People don’t want to memorize d100 tables.
@@brilobox2 This person has never read Mythras.
*cracks Knuckles*
Honestly, why do fighters need to exist? Do what WOW did and make Fighter and Barbarian a single thing in Warrior.
I agree, I feel like less classes (with more subclasses per class) might be better. More like what old school dnd was. Warrior, Magic User and Rogue then use the “multiclassing”, feats and subclasses to differentiate them. Especially since the system already has the prime modifier concept (cleric and wizard are not that different and could be subclasses since they can have the same prime modifier).
These features look cool. Two notes though. 1) Second Wind and Combat Readiness don't feel like they belong in the same ability. Feels a bit tacked on imho. 2) I think Second wind should trigger if combat ends and you still have it and are bloodied. It would be a real downer to try and use it tactically and then be punished when the combat ends before your next turn.
For me a fighter will always be like Link, they use a lot of extra items they find throughout their journey to keep up with their allies I would love to see adaptive arsenal allow you to just freely swap whats in your hand like quick draw in 3.5 kinda does, as even in OSR I will always be loading my fighter up with random things I can find like alchemists fire, or a flute that if you learn how to play it activates a shatter spell, ect. It's also why in dnd i've always wanted a decent str/dex combo despite most going for one or the other + con cause I like to be an archer one minute and a melee the next. Fighters are natural with weapons/armor and to me have always been about upgrading their arsenal with weapon, armor, and item alike, it's a shame more games don't actually give fighters proper item features. I think giving fighters an ability to augment their own equipment taking the load of the GM would be the superior choice, a class who's unique abilities are to take a magic sword or armor and improve upon it's design for their own uses would be great and fit much better as fighter fantasy imo as what you describe as taking hits is more barbarian fantasy (it's why they get the shiny d12 instead of d10 in 5e as in theory your supposed to AVOID getting hit as a fighter)
Personally the issue I find fighter suffers from is many people mix the barbarian fantasy with the fighter fantasy. I feel like the guy who gets hit and gets back up with no "I didn't hear no bell" is often in reality the barbarian fantasy, when the reality is fighters are adaptable people who bring the right tool for the job or put all their eggs into one weapon and enhance their bodies with alchemy, armor, or other items/enhancements they find as they are by all means a common warrior gifted with exceptional training likely from a young age like knights or a warrior of circumstance thrown into a chaotic life due to w/e circumstances. Other fighters instead might incorporate charisma to be warlords and help lead a battlefield with tatical knowledge and support perhaps carrying horns to give signals or other abilities to enhance their party (which ttrpgs could do with more of). While some other fighters use a combination of their wits or innate luck mixed with their weapons of choice. It's not to say a fighter can't take a hit but they definitely rely more heavily on getting the job done with weapons not actively wanting to get hit and hoping w/e armor they brought doesn't give out or that they can parry or deflect blows with their weapon/shield.
To me notable fighters are, Brian Unglaus, Link, Monster Hunter series player characters, Theo Cornaro, Boromir, Luke Skywalker (though more an eld knight due to jedi, if you watch how he fights vadar it's not about tanking hits it's about using his surroundings and still being outclassed by a superior foe), Ash Williams, Trevor Belmont, Isaac Clarke, Samus Aran, Kiryu as a brawler type of fighter as he uses anything he can pick up as a weapon, Sokka, ect (surprisingly a lot of fighters in media haha).
The key component to improving fighter I feel is to improve on their defense issue, the issue fighters have in other rpgs is they often get a bunch of AC only to have problems the moment they need to dodge something (ya know the thing they should equally be good at) as they only seem to get good saves against poisons, diseases, and such. They also suffer from a weak will which is odd as a fighter's will should be quite strong in most cases. Ultimately fighters should be an adaptable force on the battle field using weapons and items in tow, with baked in class features to take the load off allowing fighters to tinker with their equipment or gain access to interesting utility items such as "create a hookshoot" or a boomerang that functions like a stunning strike manuever or maybe they enhance themself with a potion for a combat, or they learn lesser magics that require a weapon to function like a fire arrow or learn to make a more advanced weapon or limb that allows them to augment themself further ect. They should have a stalwart defense making it hard to land hits on them, and have features that aid them by spending stamina to push past charm or other will effects, and allow them to prevent taking full damage from pesky dex saves. This may require rebalancing the fighter to a d8 hit die though a d10 should still suffice but would fit heavily more into what a fighter is, they don't want to get hit they wear all that armor so they DONT get hit otherwise they'd be a barbarian in hide armor or w/e haha.
It's this adaptable nature and stalwart defense that is supposed to allow them to excel next to their caster buddies, and in OSR they generally did cause they had the best atk bonus outshining clerics chance to hit and access to the heaviest armor making hitting them difficult. The issue was as new classes got added to the fold fighter needed an identity badly and WOTC and many other rpg designers just never bothered often making them "diet barbarian" and so far it seems dc20 is going the same direction. PF2e took a different stance by making barbarian less tanky and letting fighter take the tank roll, an interesting choice though I find many now don't enjoy the barbarian in pf2e as a big part of the barbarian fantasy was their tanky ragey nature. The other big issue fighter suffers from is no other class gets looked at harsher by "realism" players than fighter meanwhile every other class is freely allowed to dance in fantasy land letting their features get more and more crazy while fighter gets screwed in this "grounded" approach. Fighter is an interesting beast, one that I feel needs completely overhauled but I doubt i'll see such a thing in the ttrpg world.
So the changes boil down to you do the basic martial stuff better then everyone else, and you get a bump at the start of combat. Level two is i have bigger numbers then you. I will would have to playtest to see how these feel, are they equivalent to other class features. My initial concern is that a boost at the beginning of combat is the only thing that truly transforms how you play. Monk stances, barb rage, druid domains, warlord aura change how you play the game dramatically, does a few more maneuvers, a boost at the start of combat, and bigger numbers do the same? They very well could I would just need to see it in playtest.
An idea for you that might take fighter to the next level: When a fighter uses a maneuver they also get 1 space of movement or can move the enemy 1 space (maybe both depending on how strong you think it is, maybe you pick one and don't give the choice to keep it simple). This means that the fighter doesn't just know more maneuverers then the other classes, they preform them at one step above everyone else. It isn't bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers, it adds a lot of character to how they fight, and it allows them to always be the tactician on the battlefield, making the small moves that turn into big changes on the battlefield. Just an idea for you, take it or leave it. Love what you do coach.
Hurts to say, but you missed the mark here. Not only feels uninspired but also underpowered.
You should try to come back to fighters after finishing the techniques.
Looks good. Please fix Sorcerer, Warlock, and Barbarian, all increasing/reducing the value of some primes next.
And please make the rouges talent Evasion. Cheap shot seems alot more twards the class fantasy than Evasion, and I'd hate to see it be the other way around.
This class still doesn't feel anywhere as exciting as the other classes. I don't think the features capture much fighter energy, they feel like just about any other martial class.
_and I still don't like how you can't seem to move 5 feet in your videos without trying to sell me your game. Again. I'm watching this video. I'm already invested._
14:01 this one here would be better if it was a d4 and you could spend stamina to get it.
The Fighting Spirit is weak because it's only once per combat.
It would better if all martial could get 4 maneuvers, but the fighter can get all, or more than 5.
🙂👍🏻