Ten or so years ago I bought a 13X40 metal lathe from PM. It was many years later before I ever made a serious effort to thread on it. Threading using the thread dial was impossible. In seeking the cause I found that the gear on the thread dial was not the proper number of teeth. It was a 27 tooth instead of a 32. I contacted Matt and told him what I had found and asked to buy the proper gear. My lathe was no longer offered BUT Matt had a custom gear made to the proper specs and sent it to me for free. Lathe was long out of warranty so he could have just told be tuff, but he didn't. To me honest I should have discovered the issue years earlier but I didn't. In my view Matt and his company are first rate. Absolutely no reason not to recommend PM to anyone looking for machine tools! Thanks Matt!
A rare view of comparison, side by side. this was great, I have been leaning towards the Precision Mathews anyway, but this helps. Grizzly seems a bit cruder.
Good video. I am a professional gunsmith/rifle builder and 1000yd competition benchrest shooter. A lot of friends of mine in the same business as me are running PM mills & lathes and are very happy. I hear customer service from Matt is the very best
I took a trip to Pittsburgh to take a look at some PM machines; arranged ahead of time to look at some of their heavier lathes and was pleasantly surprised at what I found. The owner was a nice guy and seemed like someone I’d like to do business with. As it turned out a used European Made Lathe became available soon after my visit, so I didn’t end up getting a PM, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy something from him in the future.
It would like to know how difficult it is to tram the Precision Matthews compared to the Grizzly. Also,, after use, how well does the Precision Matthews stay in tram compared to the Grizzly.?
My G704 had a gear driven spindle and a soft screw as a key for the R-8 . Needed a spindle disassembly to replace the screw. I replaced drive gears 3 times before I sold the G704.
The mount of the heads, the PM has a pin to hold location, and rotates on the pin. If the Grizzley has a bolt in the center, it will have some slope or unwanted movement that is not repeatable. This is assuming there is a pin in the PM.
I got my PM-25MV about a year ago now and mine came with an R8 drill chuck. Not sure if they changed anything since then, but they came with the machines when i bought them. And I loved this machine, that little brushless motor has a ton of torque.
Not sure if the prices have changed but the site now shows $1,399 for the PM-25MV without stand and $170 for the stand. Add in $150 + $50 for lift gate and we are at $1,770 vs $1,360 which is a $410 difference. I find it really hard to justify the additional money at that point when a much beefier ZX32 is about the same price shipped. I would also be interested in seeing the casting thickness differences between the two. I found that on my PM45M CNC(factory CNC version) the castings were thinner in quite a few places when compared to some other models such as the original RF45, some ZX45s and Enco variations. I really do like this machine and tend to believe the belt drive and possibly spindle may exceed the design of most RF45 clones but the pricing just seems off by about $200 considering the ZX32 is available for $1,650 shipped and weighs 511 lbs vs 265 lbs.
Hi. I'm not extremely familiar with the RF45 machine. I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to do a CNC conversion. The Grizzly G0704 seems to be the baseline for bench top mill CNC conversions. Compared to the G0704, the PM25-MV is a much better. It does cost more money, but the construction is better and the machine is easier to retro-fit into a CNC. The time you save grinding down castings and hardened ball nuts is well worth the difference in price (in my opinion). Another point to consider is the spindle configuration. Most CNC guys need more than 2250 RPM. The belt drive configuration is much easier to upgrade to higher RPM than the geared head. To your point, if I were only interested in manual machining, I'd also check out the geared head machines.
Very good points and review. I was all but convinced of the grizzly but I think I have changed my mind and might be going with the Matthews. Thanks for the video.
I was wondering if you could use the Precision Matthew's to do Maching Chevy small block heads. I'm just Curious if it could be used for that reason like enlarging valve spring sockets.
I watched the whole show waiting for the details. How well do they mill? Can you make a tolerance better with one? It was like reviewing a car without ever driving it.
Wow, this video is FANTASTIC. Exactly what the title says it is, and it is fair, honest, comprehensive, and informative. This vid just ended the agonizing exercise of flipping between web sites and manuals as i fret and ball my fists trying to come to a decision. Information obtained, achievement unlocked, decision made. Thank You!
Nicely done sir! You gave a comparison that was sorely needed. I've owned several grizzly and precision Matthews machines and let me say- hands down PM is the better product on all fronts. Matt and his wife are the best around and their machines prove it in home shops everyday. Grizzly is a good company and I bought my first lathe from them but PM is the next level. I tear down my machines to a pile of parts, inspect, replace(if needed) and improve, then reassemble before it goes online. My PM machines are super nice for what your paying. I work with all types of machines daily and love clausing, SM, Hardinge, Leblond, and the ubiquitous Bridgeport just to name a few but my home shop(with which earns me side money) stocks Precision Matthews. Don't take my word for it, decide for yourself. Free thinking is the spice of life, or something like that. One last thing....the man makes the machine not the other way around. Life is full of contradictions.
Please post your conversion here. I have a PM-25V still in the box in my garage that I am adding some clearpaths servos to. Hoping to get started this summer. Looking forward to see how yours goes.
I want to thank you so much for making this video I have been trying to decide between these 2 machines and I had been leaning heavily toward the PM and now I will be getting my own PM-25MV it may take a few extra months to be able to buy it, but it is better to buy 1 very good machine than buying an ok machine and then buying the better machine latter thus making the total investment larger thanks again Have a great day and a better tomorrow
This is a well-documented comparison. It's not just a talking head video; you actually get to see video of the features being compared. This video preference makes it much easier to understand and relate to.
Nice comparison, sold me on PM and I have been a long time Grizzly/Shopfox guy. I was curious if this was a rebranded Shopfox but they don't seem similar. A minor thing but why they heck cant they bother to paint either of these 1500 dollar tools better than a dollar store patio chair?
Does the cabinet for the Precision Matthews have a way to bolt it to the floor? I saw a square hole on the side and was wondering if it was an inset for a bolt. Great comparison. I have been looking for a bench top mill for a while and this helps a lot.
Wow... seeing the back and forth comparison between the two, the precision matthews looks like a much better machine. The fit and finish is significantly better, but big things like the column mounting, base casting, and precision ground dovetails really make me want to save the extra money and buy the matthews as my first mill. Thanks for posting.
It looked like the lead screw on the grizzly was 1/10 pitch and the matthews was 1/20. (guess from the video picture) I wonder if the screws are both hardened. This has a LOT to do with how long backlash adjustments will be satisfactory.
Hi. You can cut nearly anything on either machine as long as you work within the limits of the machine. In steel, I'd say you need to keep the drill under 3/4". When milling, you can put a fairly large mill in the machine but you won't be able to take a very aggressive cut. I mill a lot of aluminum and I use 3/8" and 1/4" cutters pretty aggressively.
I have a PM 10/22 lathe and am very happy with it. This mill will replace my "other" bench mill! But if I had the $ I would get an old Bridgeport with a MILLPOWER CNC conversion!
Couldn't bring myself to watch the full video. I skipped to the end after 8-10 minutes of price and appearance. It ended on paint-jobs and point-tally, so I'm not sure if it ever got around to how well they work. It could've been a 3-minute video with "this is a widget made on the Grizzly, and this is a widget made on the PM."
Agreed. He said that he hadn't used the PM, yet, so what's the point, really? I suppose at least he's got both machines, but this comparison could have been done with the spec sheets on hand for all we know.
You should add the chuck cost to the PM unit (or at least mention it) since it is included on the G0704. The PM looks to be better in a lot of important ways but good to know the full $ difference. looks like PM has 4 chucks available which range 70-130$. Any idea which one would compare to the one shipped on the G0704?
The spindle speed pickup is in the head. There is a small opening where debris can get in but very unlikely. Can easily be blocked off. Thanks for the vid and I'm glad I spent the few extra $ for the PM. Matt and Greg were very responsive to all my questions even pre-sales. They also referred me to where to get CNC conversion kit. The extra care in details are very appreciated !
All I can say is THANK YOU. I am in the market for a small mill and was considering Just these two. Having looked at the field, these Harbor Freight Jet.... and I had almost decided on PM. You clinched it...
@@FrancoCNC I bought the PM. and... You are right. I previously had a surplus industrial Jet 16 Mill/drill I somewhat "restored". Weighs a TON has backlash that is unbelievable, cannot cut straight to save my soul, and I would love to drop the damn thing in a lake. By Comparison, the PM is smaller, precise, a dream to work with.. Again, Thank You
Wish we could get these here in the UK. I ended up getting a G0704 clone (AMA25LV) im happy with it as a manual mill really, its nice and rigid and cuts well, but doing a CNC conversion is going to be a pain in the bum. Thankfully I can just mock up some parts with a 3D printer before committing to machining them.
For the record on the head mount for the PM if the center is actually an alignment pin that would be a better design. Bolts dont align things precisely, but pins do. Besides you should get more than enough clamping forde outta the 3 quality bolts. Thank you for this video! I know it may be a few years old, but still useful!
6 years later, both products remain relatively unchanged, but the price has increased significantly. as of 2023, PM-25mv is $2400, and the G0700 is $1900, both before shipping.
ditto on that, here it is the start of 2024: Grizzly: $1,050 P M : $2,400 The PM is definitely a better machine, but not that much better,. It also looks like they changed the column mount for the worse, it now only has 3 bolts. Its sort of inside the column rather than a flange to the outside with 4 bolts which was probably more stable.
I owned a G704 and it was nothing but trouble. 2 Motors (one under warranty). Gears were terrible. Also parts are not always in stock. I had to wait 8 weeks for a replacement montor. I finally converted it to a treadmill motor, and then sold it. Matt at PM is great to deal with. I have a PM1236 lathe and I love it!
looks like the base of the precicion is twice as thick too , looks like its the newer type , they sell here from hbm and the old style sells as the 25 and the newer sells like the 30
A few things: The PM is now 1699 + 169 shipping + 49 lift gate +169 stand. The DRO model is 600 extra. The Grizzly is 1495 (1350 on sale) stand included + 115 freight + about 50 lift gate. That difference is now a lot more than 200! I look at the PM and I recognize quiet a few Chinese parts. It may be assembled in the US. But I suspect it is also made in China. A lot of the pluses awarded to the PM are taste preferences or just plain quirks. Who cares about the clearance for CNC conversion. You only have to pass cables once. Precision ground is not necessarily better than machined if the machining is done right. Oh! I also think the base on the PM looks better. But that doesn't mean it is better. It's a casting. The top surface is not required to be flat. In fact, the top of most cast parts is usually made non-flat intentionally. The attachment of the column to the base also looks better on the PM. But again, the Grizzly attachment is just as good, if not as pretty. As you can guess, I have a 704. I do like a few things about the PM better. But none of those things, except maybe for the Z travel make it a better mill IMHO. So then, I would be happy with either one. But the price means everything!
Nice review! I will say that ground ways are not necessarily better than machined. I have machined ways on a Bridgeport before and they are as accurate as a ground way. The surface finish too, if you use a sharp dovetail cutter and slow speed, is also excellent. One 4140HT part I even fly cut and the opposite faces were parallel within 0.0002” across 4”. And the surface finish was spectacular.
I like your video a lot. A bit lengthy but not boring and it really couldn't be any shorter without eliminating crucial information. The best informative I've seen yet.
Hi. I've converted it to CNC so most of my videos are oriented towards that and not so much manual use. But, I can say that I really like the machine and I'm glad I purchased it.
Excellent. I wish there were more comparisons of machines from different companies. I do want to add a note about Grizzly. I have a G0463 Grizzly mill. When I set it up and followed the direction for running it during the break-in period, it would not run. I tried everything 3 times. It didn't run. I contacted Grizzly and they sent me a new part. It still didn't run. They sent me another new and different part. Still no luck. Then I stumbled onto the problem. The order in which one activated the On/Off switch, the direction control, and the speed control is important. The manual had the order incorrect. I contacted Grizzly about the error. So far after over 3 years, they have not corrected the PDF file of their manual. I don't understand. That's a 10 minute, or less, operation.
Have you done the 3Ph motor upgrade to the PM-25MV yet? I'm interested in if you still have the original BLDC motor and controller available? I have a Sieg X3 I'd like to convert to a 1HP direct belt drive. Would be you be interested in parting with it original motor if available?
thx for the video, will be looking forward to your CNC a conversation, I think both the machines are running DC spindle motors. we just made a little driver card for a client in USA to run the dc spindle directly from MASSO
That's awesome! You know what - I'm sitting here this morning wrestling with Mach 4 and a motion control board software/plugin/interface problem. Now that you've implemented canned cycles, I'm a second away from buying a MASSO. A few questions: (1) Do you handle backlash compensation? (2) Does your trajectory planning account for the compensation and synchronize all the axis while the compensation is being applied? (3) Can you handle threading for lathe applications? Thanks.
I can buy a GO704 from an individual who because of his business move is selling all his stuff. The mill and a cnc conversion kit is 950 today. With that in mind would you go with the Grizzly if could only buy a brand new PM? Thanks
Just ordered one, thanks for the review. The websites dimensions on the stand differ from what you showed. I would like to be able to make a little dolly for the stand before this machine comes to my house but I can't count on the dimensions that were shown on the website. Would it be possible for you to take the bottom Dimensions length and width exactly and post it or email me with it and then I can get ahead of the game and get this thing made up so I can roll it around when it comes. From your video it looks as though the bottom of the stand is completely flat although I can't quite see what the purpose of that space is underneath or if anything I could do that would get in the way of a flat dolly thank you
Yes, thx. New to milling, also got x axis auto feed. Sure seems pretty heavy to hang off the bed. Certainly will at the very least impact the tram imo. Waiting to ck that.
You stated you ordered a 3hp 3 phase ac motor with vfd - any details on this as i want to do the same - if you can let me know the motor type that would be great
A standard 3 phase motor is just too big (in my opinion) for these machines. I ordered one and then sent it back. However, here is a much better option: cnc4pc.com/motion-control/spindle-speed-control/cnc-milling-spindle-1100w-1-5hp-max-6000rpm-brushless-motor-and-driver.html
One very important point you did not have on your list that I think should have been near the top of the list is a comparison of backlash. I am looking at either of these machines right now. It seems the Grizz has alot of backlash on the Z, so say many of the reviews Ive read. Hows the PM's backlash? Good vid otherwise. tyvm
Hi Frank... I just happen to re-visit this video again tonight (Sept.10th, 2018) and noticed that you had replied to my coment and question (6 months ago, and directly below this comment / reply) in regards to your suggestion for a mill... so, Very sorry for not responding much sooner to your reply, and in which I thank you for your input, insight and suggestion. Just so you know, I did follow-up on your suggestion on the Grizzly 0704... and I've now had it for nearly 3 months and love it. Other than my own "learning curve" and a few minor foul ups of my own doing, the machine is great and have had No "issues" with it whatsoever... well worth the $1,725. I paid for it... and for my needs, that's for sure. So, Thank You again for your reply and input, much appreciated.
If the three bolt system uses a dowel pin instead of a bolt it’ll make serviceability easier while still maintaining its”home” position versus a bolt that is not a slip fit
Hi Joe - I still like the PM over the Grizzly. Although, I must say there is nothing wrong with the Grizzly, I just believe the PM is better, especially for converting to CNC. The PM is WAY quieter running thanks to the belt drive.
@@FrancoCNC We have a G0704 in our R&D lab and now that I've used it a little bit, it's not a bad little machine. I wouldn't expect high precision out of it, but for the general hobbyist, I think it'll be more than adequate. That said, when I get around to buying a bigger machine (currently have a Taig and Sherline mills at home), I'm definitely going to pay the extra and get a PM mill. Not sure if it'll be the PM-25MV or not though. I like the increased robustness of the 727V, but if money is a concern, I think the 25MV will be fine. Thanks for the review...
Very nice video! Thank you! You put a lot of time and effort into showing us the common details that we need to make a decision on not only Grizzly and Precision Matthews but also the details that helps us look at the other manufacture's quality, features, etc in order to determine if their milling machines are just more made in commi china (the world's capital of half-azz products) or if those commi china castings were then taken by the middle-man manufacture to be given the added quality that we would expect for getting what we should which is at least good precision for the parts we make, and in some cases even the very good precision in the parts we make on those machines
Informative video. I am (or was) interested in buying a mini mill for my fab business. After watching a few videos about the idiosyncrasies of the import machines, it seems my best course of action is, for now, to keep outsourcing machine work until I can swing a full size mill. Total cost-out for an import machine big enough to actually do something is only slightly cheaper than a used older US made machine. Tooling is about the same. Hard to find a full size machine that runs on 240 single phase but they are out there. Thanks again.
Thank you for doing this video. I had already made up my mind about getting a Matthews before I watched this video and really only was checking it out to see someone talk about the machine in general. Now after watching this video I am now more convinced about getting a Matthews. Though I plan on getting a PM727. I was wondering do you have any advice on a 6" vise and what collet set to get? I was looking at PM's Ultra Precision collet set. Do you have any input on those? Thanks again for taking the time to do videos like these. I know that they can take a lot of time to do just to help out people like me so I appreciate you taking the time.
Hi. I'm glad you find the videos helpful. I've purchased the "cheap" grey vises from PM and they have been pretty good. I'm sure the blue ones are better but I haven't used one of them. I also used the 4" version of the vise because I felt if fit on the table perfectly - but I'm sure the 6" vise with also work just fine on the PM727. If you are going to use the machine to do manual milling then it's worth the money to just buy the more expensive set that increments in 1/64". There are a few sizes that you'll use often and the others will spend most of their life in the rack. But, when you need to work you won't have to worry about having the right size collet - it will just be there waiting for you.
I bought a PM1440HD lathe last fall and their customer support has been very good. Nice machine also. They replaced the Chinese motor before shipping with a Polish made one. Don't know if that was due to my ordering 3 phase or no faith in Chinese motors. It took many months to get the machine so there was plenty of time to get 3 phase from China.
just looking at the two it appears the Precision Mathews looks like better quality. Thanks for the in depth review. really great side by side comparison
You are welcome. I'd say the PM is better than the Grizzly. I just took the PM spindle apart and found it to have German made bearings - the Grizzly had Chinese bearings. The Grizzly is OK and a great value, but I think the PM machines are slightly better in nearly all aspects (except for the paint job).
I wish you had mentioned that in order to change from low speed to high speed on the PM you're forced to tear open the head of the mill VS the Grizzly where you only have to turn a lever. Also the Z axis lock downs are on the wrong side on the PM. I am familiar with both machines since I have the Grizzly at work and own the PM myself. I get that you're doing this video as a comparison with your own interests in mind (for CNC), but a lot of other people watch this too with their own money in mind. I chose the PM (with DRO) after watching this video and I still think it was the right choice. That said, you're review is pretty one-sided. If you're buying a mill for manual use, the Grizzly is way better in terms of "controls being where you want them". Knowing what I know now I probable still would have gotten a PM but I am disappointed with how you have portrayed the differences. Both mills have major flaws. You only showed the ones with the Grizzly.
Did you actually listen to what he said in the video? Words like, "I would say it`s a point to PM, I do not know if other would rate it like that" and the list goes on - it`s his personal opinion comparing a Mill he has used, and alredy converted to CNC with a new - unused one... Wow! Make a video and warn others or share your expirience instead of blaming others for sharing what they THINK.
They must have jacked up their prices since this video. You’re looking at about 1900 for the PM by the time you add in the stand and shipping. At that price you could get the g0705 and have a much bigger machine.
Nice comparison and I'll share it with a couple of people I know who are currently shopping. You brought up the column difference (7:20). Let us know later if this makes a difference, perhaps in ease of tramming or rigidity. The column attachment method is the reason I selected the PM25
Nice review ! In the market for one of these and you convinced me on the Precision Matthews ! I have been researching Grizzly and have found some issues , not major but enough to check out their competitors ! Thanks
They are both good machines for the money, but I think the PM is a better machine - especially if you are going to do a CNC conversion. And, the belt drive on the PM is really quiet compared to the Grizzly. Have Fun!
There is no comparison between the beefiness of the 2 machine machines the PM wins handles down. I've been looking at picking up a bench top mill and this had a lot of useful information.
Ten or so years ago I bought a 13X40 metal lathe from PM. It was many years later before I ever made a serious effort to thread on it. Threading using the thread dial was impossible. In seeking the cause I found that the gear on the thread dial was not the proper number of teeth. It was a 27 tooth instead of a 32. I contacted Matt and told him what I had found and asked to buy the proper gear. My lathe was no longer offered BUT Matt had a custom gear made to the proper specs and sent it to me for free. Lathe was long out of warranty so he could have just told be tuff, but he didn't. To me honest I should have discovered the issue years earlier but I didn't. In my view Matt and his company are first rate. Absolutely no reason not to recommend PM to anyone looking for machine tools! Thanks Matt!
Yeah, they are good people.
Wow, excellent to know! Thank you.
I watched this a few times and decided on the PM30. This video has been great. Thanks for the review
A rare view of comparison, side by side. this was great, I have been leaning towards the Precision Mathews anyway, but this helps. Grizzly seems a bit cruder.
Awesome video. Precision Matthew's needs to put you on payroll.
I'll say....
I just ordered one of these. Although I did order it after watching this video.
instaBlaster
Surprised to see you here. But also very fitting of you lmao
This is has been the most helpful video I have seen in a while
Good video. I am a professional gunsmith/rifle builder and 1000yd competition benchrest shooter. A lot of friends of mine in the same business as me are running PM mills & lathes and are very happy. I hear customer service from Matt is the very best
I took a trip to Pittsburgh to take a look at some PM machines; arranged ahead of time to look at some of their heavier lathes and was pleasantly surprised at what I found. The owner was a nice guy and seemed like someone I’d like to do business with. As it turned out a used European Made Lathe became available soon after my visit, so I didn’t end up getting a PM, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy something from him in the future.
Nowhere on the PM website product description does it say the slideways are ground.
I have a PM on the way. This video helped me decide. Thank you.
The price has changed DRASTICALLY over the last 5 years, that same PM mill is $3100 Dollars now.
It would like to know how difficult it is to tram the Precision Matthews compared to the Grizzly. Also,, after use, how well does the Precision Matthews stay in tram compared to the Grizzly.?
My G704 had a gear driven spindle and a soft screw as a key for the R-8 . Needed a spindle disassembly to replace the screw. I replaced drive gears 3 times before I sold the G704.
The mount of the heads, the PM has a pin to hold location, and rotates on the pin. If the Grizzley has a bolt in the center, it will have some slope or unwanted movement that is not repeatable. This is assuming there is a pin in the PM.
I got my PM-25MV about a year ago now and mine came with an R8 drill chuck. Not sure if they changed anything since then, but they came with the machines when i bought them. And I loved this machine, that little brushless motor has a ton of torque.
Not sure if the prices have changed but the site now shows $1,399 for the PM-25MV without stand and $170 for the stand. Add in $150 + $50 for lift gate and we are at $1,770 vs $1,360 which is a $410 difference. I find it really hard to justify the additional money at that point when a much beefier ZX32 is about the same price shipped.
I would also be interested in seeing the casting thickness differences between the two. I found that on my PM45M CNC(factory CNC version) the castings were thinner in quite a few places when compared to some other models such as the original RF45, some ZX45s and Enco variations. I really do like this machine and tend to believe the belt drive and possibly spindle may exceed the design of most RF45 clones but the pricing just seems off by about $200 considering the ZX32 is available for $1,650 shipped and weighs 511 lbs vs 265 lbs.
Hi. I'm not extremely familiar with the RF45 machine. I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to do a CNC conversion. The Grizzly G0704 seems to be the baseline for bench top mill CNC conversions. Compared to the G0704, the PM25-MV is a much better. It does cost more money, but the construction is better and the machine is easier to retro-fit into a CNC. The time you save grinding down castings and hardened ball nuts is well worth the difference in price (in my opinion). Another point to consider is the spindle configuration. Most CNC guys need more than 2250 RPM. The belt drive configuration is much easier to upgrade to higher RPM than the geared head. To your point, if I were only interested in manual machining, I'd also check out the geared head machines.
Very good points and review. I was all but convinced of the grizzly but I think I have changed my mind and might be going with the Matthews. Thanks for the video.
I was wondering if you could use the Precision Matthew's to do Maching Chevy small block heads. I'm just Curious if it could be used for that reason like enlarging valve spring sockets.
I watched the whole show waiting for the details. How well do they mill? Can you make a tolerance better with one? It was like reviewing a car without ever driving it.
Wow, this video is FANTASTIC. Exactly what the title says it is, and it is fair, honest, comprehensive, and informative. This vid just ended the agonizing exercise of flipping between web sites and manuals as i fret and ball my fists trying to come to a decision. Information obtained, achievement unlocked, decision made. Thank You!
You do a review of the pros and cons, but you never mentioned the things that really matter like backlash and runout.
That's what I was waiting for.
Or the fact that he hasn’t taken a chip with the Mathews
You are right, but, he does say let you decide. It's not an all loss vijeo, it's relitive.
I like the spanner the best. A lot more robust the wrench type.
If your converting the mill to CNC the backlash and runout gets changed according to how good of a build you do.
Nicely done sir! You gave a comparison that was sorely needed. I've owned several grizzly and precision Matthews machines and let me say- hands down PM is the better product on all fronts. Matt and his wife are the best around and their machines prove it in home shops everyday. Grizzly is a good company and I bought my first lathe from them but PM is the next level. I tear down my machines to a pile of parts, inspect, replace(if needed) and improve, then reassemble before it goes online. My PM machines are super nice for what your paying. I work with all types of machines daily and love clausing, SM, Hardinge, Leblond, and the ubiquitous Bridgeport just to name a few but my home shop(with which earns me side money) stocks Precision Matthews. Don't take my word for it, decide for yourself. Free thinking is the spice of life, or something like that. One last thing....the man makes the machine not the other way around. Life is full of contradictions.
Please post your conversion here. I have a PM-25V still in the box in my garage that I am adding some clearpaths servos to. Hoping to get started this summer. Looking forward to see how yours goes.
Cool. I'll make sure I post some videos once I get started.
I want to thank you so much for making this video I have been trying to decide between these 2 machines and I had been leaning heavily toward the PM and now I will be getting my own PM-25MV it may take a few extra months to be able to buy it, but it is better to buy 1 very good machine than buying an ok machine and then buying the better machine latter thus making the total investment larger thanks again
Have a great day and a better tomorrow
Awesome! I'm glad you found this to be helpful.
How about the backlash? adjustment? and smoothness of cranking? thank you
This is a well-documented comparison. It's not just a talking head video; you actually get to see video of the features being compared. This video preference makes it much easier to understand and relate to.
Nice comparison, sold me on PM and I have been a long time Grizzly/Shopfox guy. I was curious if this was a rebranded Shopfox but they don't seem similar. A minor thing but why they heck cant they bother to paint either of these 1500 dollar tools better than a dollar store patio chair?
Does the cabinet for the Precision Matthews have a way to bolt it to the floor? I saw a square hole on the side and was wondering if it was an inset for a bolt.
Great comparison. I have been looking for a bench top mill for a while and this helps a lot.
Hi Robert. Yes it does. There are two slots (one on each side) where you can bolt it to the floor. Thanks for watching.
Wow... seeing the back and forth comparison between the two, the precision matthews looks like a much better machine. The fit and finish is significantly better, but big things like the column mounting, base casting, and precision ground dovetails really make me want to save the extra money and buy the matthews as my first mill. Thanks for posting.
Learning the Hard Way I'm glad you liked the video. The Grizzly is good but the PM25MV is better. The table is also beefier than the Grizzly.
It looked like the lead screw on the grizzly was 1/10 pitch and the matthews was 1/20. (guess from the video picture) I wonder if the screws are both hardened. This has a LOT to do with how long backlash adjustments will be satisfactory.
How is the rigidity on the PM? How deep can you cut steel without chatter with say a 1/4 end mill?
Thank you! I had decided on Grizzly but your video has me rethinking my decision.
Grizzly G0704 Mill vs Precision Matthews PM-25MV Mill
So, what can they each cut....wood, aluminum, steel, stainless steel, carbon steel? How deep and wide on each pass?
Hi. You can cut nearly anything on either machine as long as you work within the limits of the machine. In steel, I'd say you need to keep the drill under 3/4". When milling, you can put a fairly large mill in the machine but you won't be able to take a very aggressive cut. I mill a lot of aluminum and I use 3/8" and 1/4" cutters pretty aggressively.
I have a PM 10/22 lathe and am very happy with it. This mill will replace my "other" bench mill! But if I had the $ I would get an old Bridgeport with a MILLPOWER CNC conversion!
Couldn't bring myself to watch the full video. I skipped to the end after 8-10 minutes of price and appearance. It ended on paint-jobs and point-tally, so I'm not sure if it ever got around to how well they work. It could've been a 3-minute video with "this is a widget made on the Grizzly, and this is a widget made on the PM."
Agreed. He said that he hadn't used the PM, yet, so what's the point, really? I suppose at least he's got both machines, but this comparison could have been done with the spec sheets on hand for all we know.
As of July 2019, cost (company website) with shipping: G0740 = $1,638., PM-25 = $2,119. Difference =$481. +30%. Worth it?
You should get paid by PM, I had a grizzly mill in my cart at the beginning of this video. I just purchased the PM-727V.
You should add the chuck cost to the PM unit (or at least mention it) since it is included on the G0704. The PM looks to be better in a lot of important ways but good to know the full $ difference. looks like PM has 4 chucks available which range 70-130$. Any idea which one would compare to the one shipped on the G0704?
The spindle speed pickup is in the head. There is a small opening where debris can get in but very unlikely. Can easily be blocked off. Thanks for the vid and I'm glad I spent the few extra $ for the PM. Matt and Greg were very responsive to all my questions even pre-sales. They also referred me to where to get CNC conversion kit. The extra care in details are very appreciated !
Jim C Which conversion kit did they recommend?
Take a look at Arizonavideo99 for PM25 and PM30 CNC conversion kits. Reply to Dave via FB.
What kind of CNC molds can you do the Precision. Wondering if you can do a CNC mold as per say worm molds
All I can say is THANK YOU. I am in the market for a small mill and was considering Just these two. Having looked at the field, these Harbor Freight Jet.... and I had almost decided on PM. You clinched it...
When you are looking at machines in this price range, it's hard to beat the PM.
@@FrancoCNC I bought the PM. and... You are right. I previously had a surplus industrial Jet 16 Mill/drill I somewhat "restored". Weighs a TON has backlash that is unbelievable, cannot cut straight to save my soul, and I would love to drop the damn thing in a lake. By Comparison, the PM is smaller, precise, a dream to work with..
Again, Thank You
@@pilgrimm23 You are welcome. I'm happy I could help.
Wish we could get these here in the UK. I ended up getting a G0704 clone (AMA25LV) im happy with it as a manual mill really, its nice and rigid and cuts well, but doing a CNC conversion is going to be a pain in the bum. Thankfully I can just mock up some parts with a 3D printer before committing to machining them.
Column mounting alone is shockingly suspect on the grizzly.
The Grizzly G0759 I received today looks to have ground ways, but the head tilt area looks hand scraped.
all you had to say was there is no plastic gears on the PM-25MV. its a clear winner with just that aspect.
For the record on the head mount for the PM if the center is actually an alignment pin that would be a better design. Bolts dont align things precisely, but pins do. Besides you should get more than enough clamping forde outta the 3 quality bolts. Thank you for this video! I know it may be a few years old, but still useful!
6 years later, both products remain relatively unchanged, but the price has increased significantly.
as of 2023, PM-25mv is $2400, and the G0700 is $1900, both before shipping.
ditto on that, here it is the start of 2024:
Grizzly: $1,050
P M : $2,400
The PM is definitely a better machine, but not that much better,. It also looks like they changed the column mount for the worse, it now only has 3 bolts. Its sort of inside the column rather than a flange to the outside with 4 bolts which was probably more stable.
I owned a G704 and it was nothing but trouble. 2 Motors (one under warranty). Gears were terrible. Also parts are not always in stock. I had to wait 8 weeks for a replacement montor. I finally converted it to a treadmill motor, and then sold it. Matt at PM is great to deal with. I have a PM1236 lathe and I love it!
My Grizzly stuff has been OK but I do like the PM machines better. Also, a much smaller company - you actually get to interact with the owner at PM.
Nice comparison. Does either machine come standard with a vise and, if so, how do the vises compare?
Neither come with a vise included. 4" vises are available from both companies. I like the PM vise more than the Grizzly version.
What a wonderful DOWN TO EARTH review!! Thank you very much Sir.
Art from Ohio
looks like the base of the precicion is twice as thick too , looks like its the newer type , they sell here from hbm and the old style sells as the 25 and the newer sells like the 30
Damn... did the price really jump almost $1000 for the PM? I wish I would have bought one back a few years ago!
Right😂
A few things:
The PM is now 1699 + 169 shipping + 49 lift gate +169 stand. The DRO model is 600 extra.
The Grizzly is 1495 (1350 on sale) stand included + 115 freight + about 50 lift gate.
That difference is now a lot more than 200!
I look at the PM and I recognize quiet a few Chinese parts. It may be assembled in the US. But I suspect it is also made in China.
A lot of the pluses awarded to the PM are taste preferences or just plain quirks. Who cares about the clearance for CNC conversion. You only have to pass cables once. Precision ground is not necessarily better than machined if the machining is done right. Oh! I also think the base on the PM looks better. But that doesn't mean it is better. It's a casting. The top surface is not required to be flat. In fact, the top of most cast parts is usually made non-flat intentionally. The attachment of the column to the base also looks better on the PM. But again, the Grizzly attachment is just as good, if not as pretty.
As you can guess, I have a 704. I do like a few things about the PM better. But none of those things, except maybe for the Z travel make it a better mill IMHO.
So then, I would be happy with either one. But the price means everything!
Nice review! I will say that ground ways are not necessarily better than machined. I have machined ways on a Bridgeport before and they are as accurate as a ground way. The surface finish too, if you use a sharp dovetail cutter and slow speed, is also excellent. One 4140HT part I even fly cut and the opposite faces were parallel within 0.0002” across 4”. And the surface finish was spectacular.
I like your video a lot. A bit lengthy but not boring and it really couldn't be any shorter without eliminating crucial information. The best informative I've seen yet.
Billy Kranston I would nix "according to". Just make a blanket statement, that all specs shared are per the manufacturer.
Billy Kranston Thanks.
I'm willing to bet if he didn't begin and end every sentence with Precision Matthews he could cut 5 minutes from the video
In the end it boils down to how tight is it?
Now that you've had some time with the new machine, are you going to do a more in depth review of operations?
Hi. I've converted it to CNC so most of my videos are oriented towards that and not so much manual use. But, I can say that I really like the machine and I'm glad I purchased it.
The thing missing from that was how well do they machine.
Good unbiased review.
An important video for would be buyers and even window shoppers!
Thanks for the video!
Excellent. I wish there were more comparisons of machines from different companies. I do want to add a note about Grizzly. I have a G0463 Grizzly mill. When I set it up and followed the direction for running it during the break-in period, it would not run. I tried everything 3 times. It didn't run. I contacted Grizzly and they sent me a new part. It still didn't run. They sent me another new and different part. Still no luck. Then I stumbled onto the problem. The order in which one activated the On/Off switch, the direction control, and the speed control is important. The manual had the order incorrect. I contacted Grizzly about the error. So far after over 3 years, they have not corrected the PDF file of their manual. I don't understand. That's a 10 minute, or less, operation.
Where are lift points for a hoist, for example, to place either on its stand?
The manual will show you pictures of how how to sling the mill and lift it with an engine hoist.
Have you done the 3Ph motor upgrade to the PM-25MV yet? I'm interested in if you still have the original BLDC motor and controller available? I have a Sieg X3 I'd like to convert to a 1HP direct belt drive. Would be you be interested in parting with it original motor if available?
at 7:28 the Grizzly started weeping uncontrollably and I couldn't watch anymore...
thx for the video, will be looking forward to your CNC a conversation, I think both the machines are running DC spindle motors. we just made a little driver card for a client in USA to run the dc spindle directly from MASSO
That's awesome! You know what - I'm sitting here this morning wrestling with Mach 4 and a motion control board software/plugin/interface problem. Now that you've implemented canned cycles, I'm a second away from buying a MASSO. A few questions: (1) Do you handle backlash compensation? (2) Does your trajectory planning account for the compensation and synchronize all the axis while the compensation is being applied? (3) Can you handle threading for lathe applications? Thanks.
Masso CNC Controllers Hi. do you have an updated list of supported M and G codes for the MASSO?
I can buy a GO704 from an individual who because of his business move is selling all his stuff. The mill and a cnc conversion kit is 950 today. With that in mind would you go with the Grizzly if could only buy a brand new PM? Thanks
A G0704 that has already been converted to CNC with a "good" conversion kit for $950 is a great deal. Buy it.
Thanks.
Just ordered one, thanks for the review. The websites dimensions on the stand differ from what you showed. I would like to be able to make a little dolly for the stand before this machine comes to my house but I can't count on the dimensions that were shown on the website. Would it be possible for you to take the bottom Dimensions length and width exactly and post it or email me with it and then I can get ahead of the game and get this thing made up so I can roll it around when it comes. From your video it looks as though the bottom of the stand is completely flat although I can't quite see what the purpose of that space is underneath or if anything I could do that would get in the way of a flat dolly thank you
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Did you get your dolly built?
Yes, thx. New to milling, also got x axis auto feed. Sure seems pretty heavy to hang off the bed. Certainly will at the very least impact the tram imo. Waiting to ck that.
Wow! Such detail...
Really great info for someone(me) considering purchasing a Benchtop Mill..
Thank you 😊🏁
What does it cost to convert one to cnc as he did the grizzly?
th-cam.com/video/dvbsIgrwl1U/w-d-xo.html
@@FrancoCNC thanks. I'll check it out.
Good vid. Looking for a mill this size. May have swayed me toward the PM. Why didn't you buy the PM in the 1st place? Looks like a good machine.
Hi. The grizzly is a good machine, but I like the PM better. I purchased the Grizzly before I knew about Precision Matthews. Thanks.
nice video....but a pity that you did not show the milling-results of both machines....
No value in that. He exchanged the lead screw of the grizzly for a ball screw, so that heavily impacts performance
Thanks Frank. I know It's been a while but anybody knows which of these mills the SX2.7 SIEG could be compared to?
Hearing the prices in the beginning of this video is painful. But great video and made my comparison shopping easy
PM appears to have a much bigger diameter lead screw on the table, with perhaps better machining.
Ball oilers belt drive and the vertical column attach method. That alone is worth the difference and more.
You stated you ordered a 3hp 3 phase ac motor with vfd - any details on this as i want to do the same - if you can let me know the motor type that would be great
A standard 3 phase motor is just too big (in my opinion) for these machines. I ordered one and then sent it back. However, here is a much better option:
cnc4pc.com/motion-control/spindle-speed-control/cnc-milling-spindle-1100w-1-5hp-max-6000rpm-brushless-motor-and-driver.html
One very important point you did not have on your list that I think should have been near the top of the list is a comparison of backlash. I am looking at either of these machines right now. It seems the Grizz has alot of backlash on the Z, so say many of the reviews Ive read. Hows the PM's backlash? Good vid otherwise. tyvm
Hi Frank... I just happen to re-visit this video again tonight (Sept.10th, 2018) and noticed that you had replied to my coment and question (6 months ago, and directly below this comment / reply) in regards to your suggestion for a mill... so, Very sorry for not responding much sooner to your reply, and in which I thank you for your input, insight and suggestion.
Just so you know, I did follow-up on your suggestion on the Grizzly 0704... and I've now had it for nearly 3 months and love it. Other than my own "learning curve" and a few minor foul ups of my own doing, the machine is great and have had No "issues" with it whatsoever... well worth the $1,725. I paid for it... and for my needs, that's for sure. So, Thank You again for your reply and input,
much appreciated.
How do you lift those suckers?
What will the cost to convert to CNC comparison be? Is a CNC conversion available from Precision Mathews?
This guy may be able to help you out: th-cam.com/users/ArizonaVideo99
Very helpful. As a whole the PM completely outclasses the Grizzly.
PM machines are also available with factory installed DRO and other probably higher quality options.
If the three bolt system uses a dowel pin instead of a bolt it’ll make serviceability easier while still maintaining its”home” position versus a bolt that is not a slip fit
Only a machinists' precision can make a comparison as well as this! Thanks a lot!
You are welcome. Thanks for watching.
Any updates ???? I'm thinking about a PM mill around $2k. To buy or not to buy ...
Hi Joe - I still like the PM over the Grizzly. Although, I must say there is nothing wrong with the Grizzly, I just believe the PM is better, especially for converting to CNC. The PM is WAY quieter running thanks to the belt drive.
@@FrancoCNC We have a G0704 in our R&D lab and now that I've used it a little bit, it's not a bad little machine. I wouldn't expect high precision out of it, but for the general hobbyist, I think it'll be more than adequate. That said, when I get around to buying a bigger machine (currently have a Taig and Sherline mills at home), I'm definitely going to pay the extra and get a PM mill. Not sure if it'll be the PM-25MV or not though. I like the increased robustness of the 727V, but if money is a concern, I think the 25MV will be fine.
Thanks for the review...
@@WHJeffB I'm glad you liked it. My suggestion would be to buy the biggest/best machine you can afford. You'll never regret it!
Very nice video! Thank you!
You put a lot of time and effort into showing us the common details that we need to make a decision on not only Grizzly and Precision Matthews but also the details that helps us look at the other manufacture's quality, features, etc in order to determine if their milling machines are just more made in commi china (the world's capital of half-azz products) or if those commi china castings were then taken by the middle-man manufacture to be given the added quality that we would expect for getting what we should which is at least good precision for the parts we make, and in some cases even the very good precision in the parts we make on those machines
Informative video. I am (or was) interested in buying a mini mill for my fab business. After watching a few videos about the idiosyncrasies of the import machines, it seems my best course of action is, for now, to keep outsourcing machine work until I can swing a full size mill. Total cost-out for an import machine big enough to actually do something is only slightly cheaper than a used older US made machine. Tooling is about the same. Hard to find a full size machine that runs on 240 single phase but they are out there. Thanks again.
Isn't the PrecisionMathews just made by Sumore?
Thank you for doing this video. I had already made up my mind about getting a Matthews before I watched this video and really only was checking it out to see someone talk about the machine in general. Now after watching this video I am now more convinced about getting a Matthews. Though I plan on getting a PM727. I was wondering do you have any advice on a 6" vise and what collet set to get? I was looking at PM's Ultra Precision collet set. Do you have any input on those? Thanks again for taking the time to do videos like these. I know that they can take a lot of time to do just to help out people like me so I appreciate you taking the time.
Hi. I'm glad you find the videos helpful. I've purchased the "cheap" grey vises from PM and they have been pretty good. I'm sure the blue ones are better but I haven't used one of them. I also used the 4" version of the vise because I felt if fit on the table perfectly - but I'm sure the 6" vise with also work just fine on the PM727. If you are going to use the machine to do manual milling then it's worth the money to just buy the more expensive set that increments in 1/64". There are a few sizes that you'll use often and the others will spend most of their life in the rack. But, when you need to work you won't have to worry about having the right size collet - it will just be there waiting for you.
I bought a PM1440HD lathe last fall and their customer support has been very good. Nice machine also. They replaced the Chinese motor before shipping with a Polish made one. Don't know if that was due to my ordering 3 phase or no faith in Chinese motors. It took many months to get the machine so there was plenty of time to get 3 phase from China.
just looking at the two it appears the Precision Mathews looks like better quality. Thanks for the in depth review. really great side by side comparison
You are welcome. I'd say the PM is better than the Grizzly. I just took the PM spindle apart and found it to have German made bearings - the Grizzly had Chinese bearings. The Grizzly is OK and a great value, but I think the PM machines are slightly better in nearly all aspects (except for the paint job).
I wish you had mentioned that in order to change from low speed to high speed on the PM you're forced to tear open the head of the mill VS the Grizzly where you only have to turn a lever. Also the Z axis lock downs are on the wrong side on the PM. I am familiar with both machines since I have the Grizzly at work and own the PM myself. I get that you're doing this video as a comparison with your own interests in mind (for CNC), but a lot of other people watch this too with their own money in mind. I chose the PM (with DRO) after watching this video and I still think it was the right choice. That said, you're review is pretty one-sided. If you're buying a mill for manual use, the Grizzly is way better in terms of "controls being where you want them". Knowing what I know now I probable still would have gotten a PM but I am disappointed with how you have portrayed the differences. Both mills have major flaws. You only showed the ones with the Grizzly.
Did you actually listen to what he said in the video? Words like, "I would say it`s a point to PM, I do not know if other would rate it like that" and the list goes on - it`s his personal opinion comparing a Mill he has used, and alredy converted to CNC with a new - unused one... Wow! Make a video and warn others or share your expirience instead of blaming others for sharing what they THINK.
They must have jacked up their prices since this video. You’re looking at about 1900 for the PM by the time you add in the stand and shipping. At that price you could get the g0705 and have a much bigger machine.
HAAS does, as do a few others. but do you want to spend that much to save a little time?
There is a Tariff on Chinese crap now thats why its more money!
These machines should be under 1000 bucks.
The 3 bolt system is better, because the pivot pin is way more accurate than a pivot bolt
Nice comparison and I'll share it with a couple of people I know who are currently shopping. You brought up the column difference (7:20). Let us know later if this makes a difference, perhaps in ease of tramming or rigidity. The column attachment method is the reason I selected the PM25
the comparison SUCKS... if he just had some knowledge before .. I would have my sure thing Respect.
Why they so expensive now?
A comparison is really only valid by machining the same parts on both mills. Then measuring the results. That is the actual comparison
Machined or scraped
Nice review ! In the market for one of these and you convinced me on the Precision Matthews ! I have been researching Grizzly and have found some issues , not major but enough to check out their competitors ! Thanks
They are both good machines for the money, but I think the PM is a better machine - especially if you are going to do a CNC conversion. And, the belt drive on the PM is really quiet compared to the Grizzly. Have Fun!
I will ! This has been a long research for me and you sealed the deal ! Again kudos again to you Franco ! Thanks ! Robert
(1). A Green Laser Pointer works nicely for pointing out what you're talking about.
There is no comparison between the beefiness of the 2 machine machines the PM wins handles down.
I've been looking at picking up a bench top mill and this had a lot of useful information.
Similar weight for both, so where's the beef?