I have to admit this channel has got me back into layout building. There's a lot to be said for getting something up and running, even a simple oval, getting some trains running and having some fun. Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not hard work. For many years I was something of a purist regarding scale, era, period, locale etc. But in all those years I planned more than I built, and started more than I finished, and while I still admire those that can recreate Luton as it was on Tuesday March 23rd 1937 at 3pm (unless it was raining) these days for myself, I usually just want to sip whiskey and watch trains roll. As master track planner John Armstrong once said, "Don't think about your small layout and short trains, and feel bad. Instead, think of how your models aren't sitting on a shelf collecting dust, and feel good!"So get some rolling stock rolling, people. If tight curves offend, learn to disguise them with scenery, or raise the layout height closer to eye level (or sit down to operate it) because tight curves don't look as bad when seen at or near eye level. Once again guys, great channel, great videos, and thanks for the inspiration.
Hi Bryan. I have to say I agree with everything you say 100% its exactly the way I view model railways. I also spent a period planning more than building and gave up and just built something! So pleased we inspired you to get building again and thanks again for your comments.
Thanks Mike, for your kind words. Your efforts have inspired me to not only build again, but share my work with others and launch a youtube channel of my own, called A Fine Scale Madness. I'm hoping people will enjoy my descent into model railways again, and I will be linking across to you guys as my inspiration to having fun with model trains. I've got 3 videos up so far, as I attempt a modest but fun layout with operational potential. Again, thank you for your enthusiasm and all you give back to the hobby! BF
Hi Bryn, we will rush and have a look at your channel, I'm sure it's excellent. Fun, cheap, and simple seems to be where we are all heading in our own ways, but mostly it's about fun.
It's great to know we have converted a couple of people! Fine scale has its time and place, it's just not for me, and it would seem lots of other people as we have 2,300 subscribers. Thanks again for your comments.
I must admit I totally love this channel. And I totally agree with it's message. I too was once a purist and still I admire perfect model railway layouts like for instance the beautyful creations of Gordon and Maggy Gravett. I have tried and tried to make things perfect until some years ago I got an old GDR train set and just put together some old stuff, oil it up and have fun. Suddenly the fun of a hobby was back so I decided to keep things very simple from now on. This channel shows I am not the only one who thinks like this. Thanks for giving us so much inspiration!
Hi guys. I love the fact that just cut your own detail. You railway model for fun. Surely that's all it's about? You've inspired me to scratch build for my impending loft layout. Cheers and keep up the belting work.
Hi Mark, thanks for watching, yes it should be just about fun and what you enjoy, not confirming to others expectations, it's a hobby after all. Plus freelancing helps to keep the cost down
Budget Model Railways awesome work. I've just built a little line side hut out of card and those little wooden coffee stirrers based on the hut you made in the tutorial. If looks great, it's an original and it cost me nowt.
I like to mix up my set track radius track pieces to ease into the curves even when they are in a small space. Normally on tight curves I enter the curve with something like R3 or R4 if allowing and with R2 in the centre at the tightest point then easing back out with R3 or R4. I usually avoid R1 full stop. However, I am building a layout for my kids to use that will fit onto some leftover ply I have which is 2440mm (8ft) x 890mm (3ft). This means I can't fit anything more than R1 in a single track loop. I did have space enough though to ease into it with some R3 at curve entry. I have had good results running most of my locos on Radius 1 like Lima class 50s, Bachmann class 37s and 47s however, though they did slow down somewhat on the Radius 1 curves they never derailed.
This was a huge help, thanks. I have a five loop system but always put my two smallest trains on radius one. These are 0-6-0 shunters and often troublesome and, as a complete novice, I had no idea I could use bigger trains on the smallest dia. loop.
Glad we could help. It doesn't help when books etc tell you they wont go round. Bizarrely I have problems getting my 0-6-0 ,s round curves that 2-6-2 will go round, its all to do with the wheelbase. Older large diesels don't have restricted movement on the bodies so don't have issues on smaller curves, my Lima class 37 will go round even smaller than 1st radius as will Lima and Airfix 2-6-2. Have fun with it
Must say I've just tried using first radius and it really does work. Your absolutely right a small layout is better than no layout. I'm just wandering if a hornby class 60 would be ok
Another great video on a great channel. Every question I have searched one of your videos has popped up and they've all been a great help setting up my layout
The reason why the 9f makes it around the layout is because the first and last wheel of the 5 row of wheels is unflanged, meaning that the wheel can extend off the track
Thanks, I thought that was what it was. It still proves that sometimes you have to ignore the experts. My current layout and videos has an 18in radius curve.
With care I managed to get the Hornby Class 153 and Bachmann Class 220 around 1st Radius curves in June 2009! However the overhang at the front of the Class 220 looked ridiculous and nothing was able to pass it. The Class 153 which states on the box is a 2nd Radius curves minimum model faired better. That was amazing to see the Class 9F in your video running in this compact space: Great work!
Thank you so much for this video. I can now build a layout using oo guage , even in a limited space. I like watching all your videos so thanks again Bryan Palmer
PS - 4:20 to 4:25 shows two different length of Mk 3A coach running on this layout. The Hornby lighter grey Intercity liveried Mk 3As are the Short Based non-scale length build versions built by Hornby for the kiddies trade / to run on such tight bends. However the black-grey Intercity coaches are Mk 3A and possibly a Mk 4 scale length build at full scale length built for the more discerning modeller. Worth pointing out thinks me as the models differ quite drastically in length. Scale length Mk 3As first appeared in 1979 as manufactured by Jouef and then by Lima within the next two years. Hornby no longer manufactures the Short Based Mk 3A but they are still widespreadly available. The current Hornby Mk 3As are actually rehashed Lima models with better 'flush' glazing and no window ledges unlike their predecessors!
Love running larger locos on my layout diesel& steam:) got a soft spot for the class 37 as spent a year and half as a driver's assistant on 37 254 at the spa valley railway and it was in the Inter city that yours is in , a great loco and along with the class14/ 25 & 33 my favourite locos from a crew point of view and 37 254 was sold back to a main line freight operator a few years back and can be seen on the national rail network.
Yes love the 37s and got comfortable cab seats, the only thing is there is a bit of a draft in the cabs, more with the Radiator end one , so I used to leave the cab heaters on and pre warm in the winter/ early spring so when I and my driver got in to each cab when on the return journeys both were warm as toast , I do wonder how drivers in Scotland got one with them in their winter season ? I have heard they used bin liners to keep warm ? Lol
I believe most of the locos, with connecting doors had this problem which is why they were welded up or removed, especially as the doors were never used in practice!
@@BudgetModelRailways yes your right , we had a visiting class 26 that still had it's original front connecting doors, and we had one pair open when our chief diesel mechanic had to do some repairs to it , very interesting to see them working still.we also had a class 20 visit and I can now see why crews didn't like working them ' bonnet 1st ' as for me as a driver's assistant I had to look out a very small window or lean my head out to try to see the road ahead and while ok on a class 08/09/10 as going engine 1st on these isn't to bad on a class 20 it's worse and if it's raining well you get wet Lol , this is why I like the type 1 class 17 claton as a centre cab like the class 14 and loads of visablity in both directions .
Reminds me of the Grantham curve back in the 80's, where they had a pair of 20"s on the Burton to Skegness Jolly Fisherman's. Can in ask if a 1Co-Co1 would negotiate these radius layouts ?
I'm assuming with the Evening Star going round 1st Radius that the Scotsman wouldn't have an issue? I'm trying to maximise track within a 7x4 area and thinking of using 2nd and 1st radius for the back of the board in the tunnel/staging area
It will depend on how old the model is. Newer ones are very restricted in track radius usually 2nd or 3rd, older models might be ok. My B13 which is a smaller loco won't go round 1st radius although it's smaller and the same vintage as my evening star. Really the only way to find out is to try out sometimes
You have to build within the limits of your space and budget. Staying true to realism will make this difficult for those of us who do not have a 24 x 50 foot space and a $20,000 budget that allows for wide turns and gradual grades. Just enjoy your (your layout!!!) and model the way you want to. I have a layout that I have 22" radius on the mainline and be it a minimal acceptable radius, I still run larger loco's on it. I model no specific era and I have old steamers and new diesel electrics. I like trains...most all trains...so why should I limit myself to an era? Specific region...nope...again, I built my layout based on what I like to model so the terrain is based on Space available + industries I want to model + town elements = my layout. Its your hobby, so just have fun with it!
My Living room is 12' by 12' I have 5 layouts folded up against the wall, one is a permanent 12' x12' L one is a 6'x4' N guage the other three are 8' x 6' folded against the walls but I do get them out to run they are all dcc , easily moved but 67 locos take time to get out.
You may or may not recall an earlier post, have built a "winter wonderland" around my xmas tree on 80 x 80 cm mdf, using 8 x 1st radius track. Had the "polar express" going round other day with 1 0-6-0 loco (could have been larger) and 2 x light up pullman carriages. Great fun!
Like everything in life, there ARE exceptions... Your 2-10-2 went happily around that radius. I've got a Bachmann 2-10-2 that would do the same (albeit looking funny). However, they do that, because the inner Drivers are either blind (no flanges), or are allowed to float side to side (like Bachmann's). I've got a 4-8-4, that has rigid axles, that will barely go around a 28" Radius! Currently, it's an expensive Display Model, as I'm stuck with 22" minimum Radius. I'm thoroughly enjoying your Videos! Carmine 💥⛽
Good point. I've found that some diesels have a block of plastic moulded on the chassis which restricts bogie movement. Remove it and hey presto around they go.
I've noticed that myself! Athearn Diesels do the same.... but in Metal!! 😱😫 It's not a major deal, just more time and mess, grinding with the Dremel. Sometimes it's added Details - sometimes though, it's just lazy Design!!
I never imagined you could get a class 66 round a first radius. I'd all but ruled that out. I might consider one now. I'd like to know if some the other classic kids loco's will go round radius 1 as well. Flying Scotsman? Eurostar?
It all depends on their age , the newer they are the less likely. The Railroad Range seems ok , I got a new Class59 last year which goes round just fine, but it mostly seems to effect larger steam locos.
Could i ask....Are Triang Super 4 Radius 1 curves....the same as more modern hornby Rad 1...I am guessing the dimensions did not change with time ?? .I think this layout will be minimum i can go...Using Super 4 Rad 1 Curves..if they are the same.This size layout will be ideal....thanks..Ade....What Size board please...just for main board.
that`s great...Thank you..Just need to get a bit of board now and get started....The Tighter curved layout i was looking at....On your channel last night, i would not be able to manage as all my track is Super 4 set track....Thanks again..Ade
That's about a 15" radius for us 'mericans, I often mix them in when space is tight using the larger radius at the entrance and exits of a 90 degree curve. eg 18-15-18
That’s actually similar to reality where you start a curve with a ‘transition curve’ to ease trains into a curve rather than have them suddenly veer off - it’s also where the camber (tilt) of the track builds up for the curve. Oops sorry...getting a bit too technical now!
Can you please tell me what size this layout is. I only have a space 34 inches by 41 inches, which will accomodate 1st radius curves on the 34 inch side, but leaves only about a 9 or 10 inches run of straight track on the 41 inch side.
Sorry but I no longer have it, it was about 48in. You have two other options, use old Jouef 13in radius track or flexitrack. Either will restrict what locos you can run. I would stick with a 10in straight, it's long enough for a station or some points and sidings. Happy Christmas
@@BudgetModelRailways thanks buddy. Looking at making a second layout on a very cheap door as. Base board.. they're about 2.5ft wide and just under 7ft long. Really easy to move about because it's just a door.. I'd probably need Flexi track to get a loop in then...
Ive used doors they make great baseboard. One idea I have used is to run a piece of timber batten along the edge which might give you the room you need for first radius. Jouef made a set track curve only 26in across which I have used. I used fkexitrack to make my market town layout which was only 18in wide but it does limit what locos and rolling stock you can use.
Nice thing about the 9f is that just like the real thing the models have the flange missing from the centre axle which is a bit of a sneaky cheat to make it work. You might struggle with something like an LMS duchess!
Hi appreciate this is a old video but could you give me any tips on what coaches to go for on 1st radius or what to look out for? My son has just got a set mounted on a board and we bought some old airfix lms coaches but they just don't manage it 😔
Its tricky, I run old Triangle early Hornby MK1 coaches OK, and most Lima ones will be OK. You might find that under the bogies is a lump of plastic which restricts movement, cut this away and you should be OK? Most older Hornby and Lima coaches will be OK, but try not to pay too much, prices are silly at the moment.
Standard tanks, Fairburns and the like are the least likely to negotiate first radius curves in my experience. Mine struggle to go round any setrack curves without dragging. As a rule older models do better on sharp curves than newer ones.
Probably not? Newer locos seem to be restricted to 2nd or even 3rd radius, its a real shame. If you check the Hornby website I believe they state what the min radius is for each loco
As this one will probably attract people interested in small layouts... here are a few tips based on experience All measurements are metric by the way, and only DC R250: Smallest one made by Fleischmann. Works only with NEM style and old Fleischmann couplers. Light wagons will derail in corners at speed R360 (360mm, Fleischmann R1): Most of the older Fleischmann stuff will work, even a large BR50 2-10-0. Cues are the big rivets on the connecting rods, and if fitted with original couplers the square decoupler pins. Minimum radius for close couplers. R380 (380mm, Piko R1): Anything Piko made in the DDR age will work, even their huge 01.5's, as this minimum radius was legally mandated. R420: The absolute minimum for new production steam locomotives. If it has a long wheelbase and no minimum radius is mentioned, assume that you can't drive on anything smaller than this. Things to look for when buying second hand locomotives: If you are allowed to take the locomotive out of its package, check the underside. There were multiple solutions in the past for making locomotives capable of driving on small radiuses. The systems that i have seen are the following: - Lots of sideways play in the outermost coupled wheels (Fleischmann) - Flangeless wheels (Hornby) - Wide flanges (Piko Br 55) - Multi part frames (Piko) - Lots of bogie movement (Lima, Fleischmann). If you can't move the bogies from stop to stop, you should check the wiring. Wagon tips and warnings - Use the older stuff from the 70's and 80's on small radius layouts, these were designed for that. - Use NEM style or the old Fleischmann couplers in close coupling shafts, these can move even when the shaft is at maximum deflection (but a warning, Fleischmann makes two types of their old coupler for NEM shafts, always use the one with the slim sides, as the one with the fat sides is not as flexible) - Watch out with Lima stuff. Some wagons were made in 3 length scales and you have to guess which one it is. If it has bags of separate details, it is probably too long. - Old Piko wheels may need replacement, the alloy sometimes falls apart. - Plastic wheels need more cleaning and are often really dirty Recommendations (my opinion of course..) Fleischmann tinplate: Short, light and loud (with the original wheels). Can be hard to find good ones as they are quite often rusty or bent. Fleischmann Junior: The old starter set ones, came with plastic wheels. You even have a functioning crane car. Piko DDR age goods wagons: Check the bottom for the return springs, the couplers will drop down when the spring is missing. Piko post-Wende production goods wagons from the 'Hobby' range. These often use the DDR age body on a new chassis with NEM shafts. The Fleischmann 4201 is near indestructible, and a good runner. And a few general tips For model train shows: Usually the expensive stuff is on the tables and in view... but often there are more boxes under the table with cheaper stuff. For the seasonal buyer: Check the prices for the train sets from Piko that are sold at garden centers around Christmas. They might be cheaper than the official model train shop
Hi Mike, i guess its flexi track for anything narrower, my layout needs a return loop but i only have a max width of 30 inches ? Your thoughts please sir. Great vid again -
Hi. Yes 30 in is the minimum for current set track at 1st radius. If you can find the old Jouef track then they produced a 26 in radius. If you take a look at our latest vids then we have got down to 18in with flexitrack but that's very restricted on locos and rolling stock. Hope this helps
1st Radius curves were supplied as standard during the 1970s by Triang and Hornby in their train sets. From the introduction of the Inter-City 125 train set 2nd Radius curves came in as standard to allow faster running by inexperienced users!
Hi mate, what size board is that main oval on please. I dont have a lot of width to play with but I do have 10ft in length but as yet I have not started laying the track.
I know this is random but I was on a my way back from a school trip and the was a 08 shunter , it was my first time seeing one for myself and , and ... just so happy 😆😆😆😆 And I never thought evening star would go around a FIRST RADIUS CURVE 😱😱😱so Theres more hope for me
I was at Bluebell or work a couple of weeks ago and they had their immaculate green 08 with black and yellow wasp ends, shunting in the yard. It looked and sounded epic!
Budget Model Railways This video was very useful as I wanted to get four lines going into a station which would mean I need to use first radius and I wanted to at least run some class 31s around it. Now the layouts all steam ahead, thanks 😂
I have to admit this channel has got me back into layout building. There's a lot to be said for getting something up and running, even a simple oval, getting some trains running and having some fun. Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not hard work. For many years I was something of a purist regarding scale, era, period, locale etc. But in all those years I planned more than I built, and started more than I finished, and while I still admire those that can recreate Luton as it was on Tuesday March 23rd 1937 at 3pm (unless it was raining) these days for myself, I usually just want to sip whiskey and watch trains roll. As master track planner John Armstrong once said, "Don't think about your small layout and short trains, and feel bad. Instead, think of how your models aren't sitting on a shelf collecting dust, and feel good!"So get some rolling stock rolling, people. If tight curves offend, learn to disguise them with scenery, or raise the layout height closer to eye level (or sit down to operate it) because tight curves don't look as bad when seen at or near eye level. Once again guys, great channel, great videos, and thanks for the inspiration.
Hi Bryan. I have to say I agree with everything you say 100% its exactly the way I view model railways. I also spent a period planning more than building and gave up and just built something! So pleased we inspired you to get building again and thanks again for your comments.
welcome back, Alex. I too was lost in the mire of scale/age purity.
Thanks Mike, for your kind words. Your efforts have inspired me to not only build again, but share my work with others and launch a youtube channel of my own, called A Fine Scale Madness. I'm hoping people will enjoy my descent into model railways again, and I will be linking across to you guys as my inspiration to having fun with model trains. I've got 3 videos up so far, as I attempt a modest but fun layout with operational potential.
Again, thank you for your enthusiasm and all you give back to the hobby!
BF
Hi Bryn, we will rush and have a look at your channel, I'm sure it's excellent. Fun, cheap, and simple seems to be where we are all heading in our own ways, but mostly it's about fun.
It's great to know we have converted a couple of people! Fine scale has its time and place, it's just not for me, and it would seem lots of other people as we have 2,300 subscribers. Thanks again for your comments.
I must admit I totally love this channel. And I totally agree with it's message. I too was once a purist and still I admire perfect model railway layouts like for instance the beautyful creations of Gordon and Maggy Gravett. I have tried and tried to make things perfect until some years ago I got an old GDR train set and just put together some old stuff, oil it up and have fun. Suddenly the fun of a hobby was back so I decided to keep things very simple from now on. This channel shows I am not the only one who thinks like this. Thanks for giving us so much inspiration!
Hi guys. I love the fact that just cut your own detail. You railway model for fun. Surely that's all it's about? You've inspired me to scratch build for my impending loft layout. Cheers and keep up the belting work.
Hi Mark, thanks for watching, yes it should be just about fun and what you enjoy, not confirming to others expectations, it's a hobby after all. Plus freelancing helps to keep the cost down
Budget Model Railways awesome work. I've just built a little line side hut out of card and those little wooden coffee stirrers based on the hut you made in the tutorial. If looks great, it's an original and it cost me nowt.
Sounds great
I like to mix up my set track radius track pieces to ease into the curves even when they are in a small space. Normally on tight curves I enter the curve with something like R3 or R4 if allowing and with R2 in the centre at the tightest point then easing back out with R3 or R4. I usually avoid R1 full stop. However, I am building a layout for my kids to use that will fit onto some leftover ply I have which is 2440mm (8ft) x 890mm (3ft). This means I can't fit anything more than R1 in a single track loop. I did have space enough though to ease into it with some R3 at curve entry. I have had good results running most of my locos on Radius 1 like Lima class 50s, Bachmann class 37s and 47s however, though they did slow down somewhat on the Radius 1 curves they never derailed.
This was a huge help, thanks.
I have a five loop system but always put my two smallest trains on radius one. These are 0-6-0 shunters and often troublesome and, as a complete novice, I had no idea I could use bigger trains on the smallest dia. loop.
Glad we could help. It doesn't help when books etc tell you they wont go round. Bizarrely I have problems getting my 0-6-0 ,s round curves that 2-6-2 will go round, its all to do with the wheelbase. Older large diesels don't have restricted movement on the bodies so don't have issues on smaller curves, my Lima class 37 will go round even smaller than 1st radius as will Lima and Airfix 2-6-2. Have fun with it
Just what I needed to know, thank you!
Must say I've just tried using first radius and it really does work. Your absolutely right a small layout is better than no layout. I'm just wandering if a hornby class 60 would be ok
Another great video on a great channel. Every question I have searched one of your videos has popped up and they've all been a great help setting up my layout
Thanks happy to help
The reason why the 9f makes it around the layout is because the first and last wheel of the 5 row of wheels is unflanged, meaning that the wheel can extend off the track
Thanks, I thought that was what it was. It still proves that sometimes you have to ignore the experts. My current layout and videos has an 18in radius curve.
Ah, that's what it was. I was puzzled and now I know -thanks.
With care I managed to get the Hornby Class 153 and Bachmann Class 220 around 1st Radius curves in June 2009! However the overhang at the front of the Class 220 looked ridiculous and nothing was able to pass it. The Class 153 which states on the box is a 2nd Radius curves minimum model faired better. That was amazing to see the Class 9F in your video running in this compact space: Great work!
Thanks
i’m working on a small layout for my shelf and would love an oval, this really helped! thanks!
If you use flexi track and don't mind running smaller locos it's possible to go down to 18-24in diameter
@@BudgetModelRailways thanks! Also, I love your videos, keep up the good work.
Thanks for watching
I love your loco collection, man. Lots of my personal favourites. :)
Brilliant Mike it's what you have room for not always about realism. Keep up the excellent work
Almost all locos will go round 1st radius curves as long as the track is flat and pinned down firmly to the baseboard
Thank you so much for this video. I can now build a layout using oo guage , even in a limited space. I like watching all your videos so thanks again Bryan Palmer
Thanks for watching glad we could help
My great uncle drove the evening star. in the 60s
How fantastic, our evening star loco was the third we bought as I remember my dad having the model when I was young
I only had 4 or 6 wheeled locos as a child because my Dad didn’t think big ones would work... I’ll have to show him this :D
It's always great to be able to tell your dad he was wrong, Douglas takes great pleasure in it! Certainly the older locos would cope with this.
PS - 4:20 to 4:25 shows two different length of Mk 3A coach running on this layout. The Hornby lighter grey Intercity liveried Mk 3As are the Short Based non-scale length build versions built by Hornby for the kiddies trade / to run on such tight bends. However the black-grey Intercity coaches are Mk 3A and possibly a Mk 4 scale length build at full scale length built for the more discerning modeller. Worth pointing out thinks me as the models differ quite drastically in length. Scale length Mk 3As first appeared in 1979 as manufactured by Jouef and then by Lima within the next two years. Hornby no longer manufactures the Short Based Mk 3A but they are still widespreadly available. The current Hornby Mk 3As are actually rehashed Lima models with better 'flush' glazing and no window ledges unlike their predecessors!
Thanks for the info, very helpful
What a great channel! You make very reassuring, understandable and really helpful videos that inspire novices like me. Thank you for the helpful work.
Thanks for your support, glad you enjoy them
Thank you for yhis video. Needed this to begin my track.
Glad it was helpful!
Just Watched the series of videos on this layout....In a word...Wonderful !!!
Very kind thanks, I'm hoping to complete it soon
Love running larger locos on my layout diesel& steam:) got a soft spot for the class 37 as spent a year and half as a driver's assistant on 37 254 at the spa valley railway and it was in the Inter city that yours is in , a great loco and along with the class14/ 25 & 33 my favourite locos from a crew point of view and 37 254 was sold back to a main line freight operator a few years back and can be seen on the national rail network.
Sounds epic, I love 37's
Yes love the 37s and got comfortable cab seats, the only thing is there is a bit of a draft in the cabs, more with the Radiator end one , so I used to leave the cab heaters on and pre warm in the winter/ early spring so when I and my driver got in to each cab when on the return journeys both were warm as toast , I do wonder how drivers in Scotland got one with them in their winter season ? I have heard they used bin liners to keep warm ? Lol
I believe most of the locos, with connecting doors had this problem which is why they were welded up or removed, especially as the doors were never used in practice!
@@BudgetModelRailways yes your right , we had a visiting class 26 that still had it's original front connecting doors, and we had one pair open when our chief diesel mechanic had to do some repairs to it , very interesting to see them working still.we also had a class 20 visit and I can now see why crews didn't like working them ' bonnet 1st ' as for me as a driver's assistant I had to look out a very small window or lean my head out to try to see the road ahead and while ok on a class 08/09/10 as going engine 1st on these isn't to bad on a class 20 it's worse and if it's raining well you get wet Lol , this is why I like the type 1 class 17 claton as a centre cab like the class 14 and loads of visablity in both directions .
Now this is a great and usefull video, makes me pick up the hobby right up again! Thanks! Great channel too!
Many thanks for your support
Reminds me of the Grantham curve back in the 80's, where they had a pair of 20"s on the Burton to Skegness Jolly Fisherman's. Can in ask if a 1Co-Co1 would negotiate these radius layouts ?
I did get a Class 31 round it but it wasn't happy!
I'm assuming with the Evening Star going round 1st Radius that the Scotsman wouldn't have an issue? I'm trying to maximise track within a 7x4 area and thinking of using 2nd and 1st radius for the back of the board in the tunnel/staging area
It will depend on how old the model is. Newer ones are very restricted in track radius usually 2nd or 3rd, older models might be ok. My B13 which is a smaller loco won't go round 1st radius although it's smaller and the same vintage as my evening star. Really the only way to find out is to try out sometimes
Should be mentioned that 9F steamers have "blind" (flangeless) driving wheels in the center precisely so they can go round sharper curves like this.
Thanks, I have a 2-8-0 that I want to run on a small second and first radius layout but don’t want to risk damaging the loco.
Should be ok on 2nd , it's unlikely to damage it, it just won't run but better safe than sorry
You have to build within the limits of your space and budget. Staying true to realism will make this difficult for those of us who do not have a 24 x 50 foot space and a $20,000 budget that allows for wide turns and gradual grades. Just enjoy your (your layout!!!) and model the way you want to. I have a layout that I have 22" radius on the mainline and be it a minimal acceptable radius, I still run larger loco's on it. I model no specific era and I have old steamers and new diesel electrics. I like trains...most all trains...so why should I limit myself to an era? Specific region...nope...again, I built my layout based on what I like to model so the terrain is based on Space available + industries I want to model + town elements = my layout. Its your hobby, so just have fun with it!
That's exactly the way we see it
My Living room is 12' by 12' I have 5 layouts folded up against the wall, one is a permanent 12' x12' L one is a 6'x4' N guage the other three are 8' x 6' folded against the walls but I do get them out to run they are all dcc , easily moved but 67 locos take time to get out.
Very helpful. Thanks.
Great channel
Thanks
You may or may not recall an earlier post, have built a "winter wonderland" around my xmas tree on 80 x 80 cm mdf, using 8 x 1st radius track. Had the "polar express" going round other day with 1 0-6-0 loco (could have been larger) and 2 x light up pullman carriages. Great fun!
I well remember the post, it sounds fantastic now, as you say great fun which is what it should all be about
If I could add a pic on here I would!
Like everything in life, there ARE exceptions...
Your 2-10-2 went happily around that radius. I've got a Bachmann 2-10-2 that would do the same (albeit looking funny).
However, they do that, because the inner Drivers are either blind (no flanges), or are allowed to float side to side (like Bachmann's).
I've got a 4-8-4, that has rigid axles, that will barely go around a 28" Radius! Currently, it's an expensive Display Model, as I'm stuck with 22" minimum Radius.
I'm thoroughly enjoying your Videos!
Carmine 💥⛽
Good point. I've found that some diesels have a block of plastic moulded on the chassis which restricts bogie movement. Remove it and hey presto around they go.
I've noticed that myself! Athearn Diesels do the same.... but in Metal!! 😱😫
It's not a major deal, just more time and mess, grinding with the Dremel. Sometimes it's added Details - sometimes though, it's just lazy Design!!
I never imagined you could get a class 66 round a first radius. I'd all but ruled that out. I might consider one now. I'd like to know if some the other classic kids loco's will go round radius 1 as well. Flying Scotsman? Eurostar?
It all depends on their age , the newer they are the less likely. The Railroad Range seems ok , I got a new Class59 last year which goes round just fine, but it mostly seems to effect larger steam locos.
Would the new hornby Captain Tom Moore 66 go round 1st radius? Its ex Lima tooling with a new chassis
Depends on the chassis
Could i ask....Are Triang Super 4 Radius 1 curves....the same as more modern hornby Rad 1...I am guessing the dimensions did not change with time ?? .I think this layout will be minimum i can go...Using Super 4 Rad 1 Curves..if they are the same.This size layout will be ideal....thanks..Ade....What Size board please...just for main board.
18in by 54in . I'm not sure about radius but I would assume so
Sorry was looking at wrong layout. Dimensions were approx 33in by 50in, I've dismantled it now so can't check, sorry
that`s great...Thank you..Just need to get a bit of board now and get started....The Tighter curved layout i was looking at....On your channel last night, i would not be able to manage as all my track is Super 4 set track....Thanks again..Ade
ok...thank you....will check my space...
That's about a 15" radius for us 'mericans,
I often mix them in when space is tight using the larger radius at the entrance and exits of a 90 degree curve. eg 18-15-18
That’s actually similar to reality where you start a curve with a ‘transition curve’ to ease trains into a curve rather than have them suddenly veer off - it’s also where the camber (tilt) of the track builds up for the curve. Oops sorry...getting a bit too technical now!
Could you get a Beyer Garratt round there?
New to G scale trains, are the radius tracks R1 being used in this video? Thanks
This is OO/HO not G, but yes they are OO/HO R1
Can you please tell me what size this layout is. I only have a space 34 inches by 41 inches, which will accomodate 1st radius curves on the 34 inch side, but leaves only about a 9 or 10 inches run of straight track on the 41 inch side.
Sorry but I no longer have it, it was about 48in. You have two other options, use old Jouef 13in radius track or flexitrack. Either will restrict what locos you can run. I would stick with a 10in straight, it's long enough for a station or some points and sidings. Happy Christmas
Maybe I missed this but, is this Hornby first raidus? And how wide is the baseboard please? Thanks chaps!
Yes, Hornby first radius is the same as everyone's first radius. The layout is long gone but it would have been about 33in as first radius is 30in.
@@BudgetModelRailways thanks buddy.
Looking at making a second layout on a very cheap door as. Base board.. they're about 2.5ft wide and just under 7ft long. Really easy to move about because it's just a door..
I'd probably need Flexi track to get a loop in then...
Ive used doors they make great baseboard. One idea I have used is to run a piece of timber batten along the edge which might give you the room you need for first radius. Jouef made a set track curve only 26in across which I have used. I used fkexitrack to make my market town layout which was only 18in wide but it does limit what locos and rolling stock you can use.
@@BudgetModelRailways yeah the door is exactly 30" wide.. so maybe an inch thick Batton as you say will help get that loop on. Thanks again!
Nice thing about the 9f is that just like the real thing the models have the flange missing from the centre axle which is a bit of a sneaky cheat to make it work. You might struggle with something like an LMS duchess!
Agreed, don't think I will get a 9f round my new 7.5in radius layout though!
Hi appreciate this is a old video but could you give me any tips on what coaches to go for on 1st radius or what to look out for? My son has just got a set mounted on a board and we bought some old airfix lms coaches but they just don't manage it 😔
Its tricky, I run old Triangle early Hornby MK1 coaches OK, and most Lima ones will be OK. You might find that under the bogies is a lump of plastic which restricts movement, cut this away and you should be OK? Most older Hornby and Lima coaches will be OK, but try not to pay too much, prices are silly at the moment.
This video very useful
We can even get 9F and Deltic locos round a 13in radius curve , so 4in less than this!
Standard tanks, Fairburns and the like are the least likely to negotiate first radius curves in my experience. Mine struggle to go round any setrack curves without dragging. As a rule older models do better on sharp curves than newer ones.
Will you please tell me the size of this board thanks
Hi , sorry but it's long gone. I do mention it in one of the videos. It would have been about 33in by 4-5ft?
do you think that a modern hornby class 153,20,92 and 37 could go round 1st radius
Probably not? Newer locos seem to be restricted to 2nd or even 3rd radius, its a real shame. If you check the Hornby website I believe they state what the min radius is for each loco
As this one will probably attract people interested in small layouts... here are a few tips based on experience
All measurements are metric by the way, and only DC
R250: Smallest one made by Fleischmann. Works only with NEM style and old Fleischmann couplers. Light wagons will derail in corners at speed
R360 (360mm, Fleischmann R1): Most of the older Fleischmann stuff will work, even a large BR50 2-10-0. Cues are the big rivets on the connecting rods, and if fitted with original couplers the square decoupler pins. Minimum radius for close couplers.
R380 (380mm, Piko R1): Anything Piko made in the DDR age will work, even their huge 01.5's, as this minimum radius was legally mandated.
R420: The absolute minimum for new production steam locomotives. If it has a long wheelbase and no minimum radius is mentioned, assume that you can't drive on anything smaller than this.
Things to look for when buying second hand locomotives:
If you are allowed to take the locomotive out of its package, check the underside. There were multiple solutions in the past for making locomotives capable of driving on small radiuses. The systems that i have seen are the following:
- Lots of sideways play in the outermost coupled wheels (Fleischmann)
- Flangeless wheels (Hornby)
- Wide flanges (Piko Br 55)
- Multi part frames (Piko)
- Lots of bogie movement (Lima, Fleischmann). If you can't move the bogies from stop to stop, you should check the wiring.
Wagon tips and warnings
- Use the older stuff from the 70's and 80's on small radius layouts, these were designed for that.
- Use NEM style or the old Fleischmann couplers in close coupling shafts, these can move even when the shaft is at maximum deflection (but a warning, Fleischmann makes two types of their old coupler for NEM shafts, always use the one with the slim sides, as the one with the fat sides is not as flexible)
- Watch out with Lima stuff. Some wagons were made in 3 length scales and you have to guess which one it is. If it has bags of separate details, it is probably too long.
- Old Piko wheels may need replacement, the alloy sometimes falls apart.
- Plastic wheels need more cleaning and are often really dirty
Recommendations (my opinion of course..)
Fleischmann tinplate: Short, light and loud (with the original wheels). Can be hard to find good ones as they are quite often rusty or bent.
Fleischmann Junior: The old starter set ones, came with plastic wheels. You even have a functioning crane car.
Piko DDR age goods wagons: Check the bottom for the return springs, the couplers will drop down when the spring is missing.
Piko post-Wende production goods wagons from the 'Hobby' range. These often use the DDR age body on a new chassis with NEM shafts.
The Fleischmann 4201 is near indestructible, and a good runner.
And a few general tips
For model train shows: Usually the expensive stuff is on the tables and in view... but often there are more boxes under the table with cheaper stuff.
For the seasonal buyer: Check the prices for the train sets from Piko that are sold at garden centers around Christmas. They might be cheaper than the official model train shop
Thanks for the info, sadly piko and fleishman stuff is pretty rare in the uk
Hi Mike, i guess its flexi track for anything narrower, my layout needs a return loop but i only have a max width of 30 inches ? Your thoughts please sir. Great vid again -
Hi. Yes 30 in is the minimum for current set track at 1st radius. If you can find the old Jouef track then they produced a 26 in radius. If you take a look at our latest vids then we have got down to 18in with flexitrack but that's very restricted on locos and rolling stock. Hope this helps
Hi Mike, it does, thanks a lot :)
Love this channel
Many thanks for your support.
Very helpful thanks!
Glad we could help
I believe all Triang Hornby pattern models will do first radius as there were compromises made to allow them to do so
Hi Steve, I suspect you are right, I assume the same must be true if the Lima as even the Class47 will go round. Thanks
1st Radius curves were supplied as standard during the 1970s by Triang and Hornby in their train sets. From the introduction of the Inter-City 125 train set 2nd Radius curves came in as standard to allow faster running by inexperienced users!
This is brilliant!
How much larger would 2nd and 3rd radius be ?
Each adds about 3inches
You could Google it for a more accurate answer
@@BudgetModelRailways Thanks....
Hi mate, what size board is that main oval on please. I dont have a lot of width to play with but I do have 10ft in length but as yet I have not started laying the track.
You need 2.5 feet or 3ft if possible
If you haven’t got much room but prefer to run realistic radius curves there’s always N gauge!
From the Great White North, what is a a first radius? 15 inches?
Exactly that's right
How big is the main board layout? Thinking of using the design as it looks small and compact many thanks Sean.
Hi, it's 4ft by 32in and uses first radius set track, it's probably about as small as you can get and still be able to run the larger locos on.
great video
Hello! Good video, it was very helpful! One question, was that class 66 by bachmann or hornby?
Hi thanks. Neither it's the Lima one
Very helpful
What size is baseboard please
Hi I mention it in one of the videos, I'm afraid the layout is long gone so I can't measure it
Can u do a track cleaning video
I know this is random but I was on a my way back from a school trip and the was a 08 shunter , it was my first time seeing one for myself and , and ... just so happy 😆😆😆😆
And I never thought evening star would go around a FIRST RADIUS CURVE 😱😱😱so Theres more hope for me
I was at Bluebell or work a couple of weeks ago and they had their immaculate green 08 with black and yellow wasp ends, shunting in the yard. It looked and sounded epic!
Budget Model Railways arr wow 😮
Need a Garret as well 😋
How big is the layout?
Approx 33in by 4ft, it's a first radius loop with a short straight each side.
I also have a round and round layout 18in by 4ft, there are a couple of videos of it
Budget Model Railways thank you
Hi guys I was wondering how much your class 66 was because I’m thinking of buying one
I paid £40 for it which is a bit higher than I usually spend but a lot less than the £100+ for a new one
Nice layout how did you make that Poundland I guess!
Yes most things come from poundland!
are they 00 guage...
Hi, yes OO
great information thanks but th 9f is a 2-10-0
Thanks for clarifying
Budget Model Railways This video was very useful as I wanted to get four lines going into a station which would mean I need to use first radius and I wanted to at least run some class 31s around it. Now the layouts all steam ahead, thanks 😂
You are welcome , glad we could help. I've even had a class66 round it!
The engine you said was an ivatt was actually a standard 5 class
Thanks, I'm not very up to speed on my steam Locos being a diesel man
Oh okay then.
But the evening star isn’t the class name either it called the standard 9F.
Just a tip!
Well to be fair it is the evening star regardless of what class it is
Ha ha, 3:12 intro video😀
I got a p2 round 1st radius
Excellent, we have managed a 9F, although can't say it was over happy!
Try to buy an ESU66 (smoke, red lights when braking and great sounds.)
2. 10. 0 not 2. 5 .0
Was about to put the same thing!
I stand corrected, it's a pretty big loco going round a small track whatever it's called!
Looked 0 guage from first clip
The purists were annoyed with you running a deltic with grey intercity coaches.
We live to annoy the rivet counters, we even bought a loco once especially to run on our exhibition layout so it would annoy them
@@BudgetModelRailways The mehano one.
That's the one! We also ran the Mehano HO TGV on it as well! Wrong scale, wrong country , wrong period , surprised no one had a heart attack!