How To Build And Equalise A Trad Climbing Anchor | Climbing Daily Ep.1174
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- During the recent Arc'teryx Big Mountain Weekend we had a masterclass from Mountain Guide Adrian Nelhams on anchor building. On todays show we look at the specifics of building an anchor and how to equalise it using the rope.
More information on Adrian's guiding: bit.ly/2KOoN66
Amazing deals on Trad gear: goo.gl/mSDQqA
Information on the Arc'teryx Lakeland Revival: arcteryxlakelandrevival.com/
How To Build And Equalise A Trad Climbing Anchor | Climbing Daily Ep.1174 - กีฬา
Lots of people are ready to dismiss this way of doing it and I'd like to add some defence to this method.
1. This method is great in CERTAIN situations (not all), for example when belaying from marginal gear or in poor rock like we often have in the uk especially in winter climbing.
2. This method of tying in can actually be faster than equalising and tying on with slings if the gear is spaced out and you are swing leading.
3. Tying in with the rope is much more dynamic which is always better for the belay. Tying is with a sling and belaying of a guide plate is simply much less dynamic, putting more stress on the belay.
4. It uses less slings so they can be used for runners on the pitches or you can carry less of them.
5. Yes it is more difficult to escape the system however there is a way to do it you just need someone to show you how it is done. ;-)
6. There is also a easy way to set up a haul with this system to, again you just need to know it.
7. Two well placed large wires in good solid rock should be plenty for any belay situation, but obviously more is better.
8. Belaying directly off the waist rather than in "guide mode" is more dynamic and puts less stress on the anchor, again better when using wires/cams/pitions/natural rock spikes to belay.
Learn something from it or dismiss it, as you want. However don't disregard it as unsafe practice! British Mountain guides are part of the IFMGA just as the french, american, german, swiss etc are. We test and improve the way we do things constantly and this method has stood the test of time and works well in a lot of trad climbing situations.
Have Fun!
Exactly speaking he didn't belay off the waist even though he himself was tied to the rope/master point, he belayed off the master point and that is why if the climber falls, the weight would be on the anchor instead of on him, and which wouldn't reduce the stress on the anchor
Good point, I suppose it gives you the option to try to absorb some of the force with your legs if you really want to though.
Nailed it!
Could you do exactly what is shown here but setup the belay device in guide mode?
@@lalibertenordsud IN the first configuration, you could leave a lot of slack between the two anchor points and then once you are backed up, tie a master point in the slack between the anchors. Then you could place your belay device on that master point in guidemode. This method has the advantage that it is MUCH easier to escape belay and that should one of the anchor pieces blow out, both you and the climber are still redundant on the other piece.
I always see a lot of negative comments for this anchor. The smart Trad climber should be happy to add another technique to his arsenal. Are all the naysayers so arrogant as to believe to believe their current preferred method is the only way? The best way? That they know everything about Trad climbing? I have been climbing Trad for 14 years; I constantly study, not just new things, but also the basics I learnt on day 1. Always keep learning, it will keep you breathing one day.
chris jokinen great points mate always learning. Sadly some people can't adapt
you know, how they say there are only two tipes of climbers. alive one, and ....
THis is NOT new it is POOR knowledge. This is VERY POOR invormation. DONT MAKE EXCUSE.
I watch this over and over again. It's so well presented and articulated, it's like being out on the crag with him. Thanks for showing this 🗻👍
The way I do it is this:
1. If I'm close the the wall I use an equalised sling with 2-3 anchors.
2. If I'm far from the wall I use the rope and tie-in in the same way.
3. I don't have a belay device capable of guide mode, so I never belay like that from the anchor.
4. 80% of the time I just use 2 anchors and have never had a major issue after 14 years of alpine, ice and trad climbing. But if I feel one of them is not solid, I place a third.
Great vid thanks :)
nice video! very helpful. his instructions were very clear!
Cool stuff, as a saffer we got all our techniques from the poms, from milky tea to abbing off a tuft of grass. Two pieces are plenty my bru! Liked the vid, technique worked fine for many a climb. Having moved to Europe, I now drink coffee off course. I still use a similar technique using the main rope on all my trad and sport climbs, except I equalise between the two pieces and use this as a master point from which to belay the second using e.g. an ATC Guide, so I can have my coffee whilst I'm at it. On bomber pro, I'll simply join the pieces. I am tied to the lower pro myself (longer or shorter depending on the stance), backed up to the higher one. Once brought up, I transfer the second onto my harness as they lead on (there's a quick, safe technique for this). Before unclipping from the stance they clip the higher anchor to avoid the dreaded factor 2 fall. Advantages: rope management is a breeze, I can have a sandwich while bringing up my partner and I can get out the system if need be. Disadvantages: you are not always 100% equalised, so use with discretion.Thanks for the vid, enough typing, I'm heading for the hills!
Very well explained. Thank you.
What a great trainer! Thanks for the vid 🤙
very well produced, thank you very much.
I love how all the keyboard warriors are bashing someones techniques that teaches IFMGA qualified guides . Maybe if you all got off your arses and did some leading you would understand this is common practice and part of a system of techniques used in different situations. Using the rope to create the anchor may use alot of rope and might be a bit of a faff but its common practice and it has its place . Aswell as only using 2 pieces of gear for the anchor itself , if those pieces are 10/10 bomber placements and im climbing a V Diff with someone that will cruise a 6c sport route why would i worry ?
Might be different to what you use or have been taught but knowing as many rope tricks as possible will only make you a more effective climber .
great technique! thanx!
Great tips, thanx !
Awesome English trad toolboxes! "Protect thine anchor first" methodology. I learnt this way when I was 12. I still go back to this technique with the rope because you never know ... mostly I do a lot of guiding and tend to lead climbs a lot so I do rely heavily on US methods of building equalised anchors for clients to safely belay from. You just have to take some factors into account and rate your prefered anchoring method with abbreviations such as S.E.R.E.N.E. or what ever works best for you.
This was how I was taught years ago, but these days typically only will use it mountaineering. It's a fast, efficient method to extend the anchor to the edge from far back, so great on ledgy multi-pitches. 2 piece anchors are out of fashion, but when the weather turns and speed is a a factor of safety, techniques like this might help you get up and off faster.
A modification is to use the 2 carabiners as a shelf. Once the anchor is set and connected to your belay loop, add clove hitches to the gear ends. Connect your PAS to the 2 carabiners (they become the shelf) and unclip them from your belay loop. You never leave the system, but are not no longer directly involved in the falling forces. You can either use the 2 carabiners as the master point, or add a third to join them into a single point (or just use one HMS in the first place). You have the option of adding a sliding X if you feel self equalization is required.
This could be built with as little as 2 bits of gear and 3 locking biners (2 D, 1 HMS). A useful technique to keep in mind when you've finished a long pitch and run out of other gear/slings to build your anchor, or dropped your cordelette swapping leads etc.
If I have 2 bomber pieces in and 10 feet of dynamic doubled rope connecting me to them, there a large factor of safety. But if you want more anchor points you can add an independent anchor, like a 2 (or 3 or 4) point quad, that joins the system at the master point. If you ever need 6 pieces at your anchor, that's some shitty rock! Good luck. lol.
Just learned something new!
This is very different than the way we do it in north america.
From what I have seen, use, and have been taught, we use three point anchors on gear unless both pieces are super bomber or are bolts. Generally, we also bring up the second directly off the anchor and not off the harness which changes the setup quite a lot.
Still cloves into the pieces, but brought together to a master point where the device is placed.
I do like this style, it seems to use less rope and it faster to setup, but I don't see how you can make this style of anchor self equalizing or easily escape it if something goes wrong.
I was thinking along similar lines (also from NA).
I have a feeling he's got more of an alpine approach to this, whereas in NA the "default" techniques we use are more geared towards climbing say technical trad multipitches. Also we have more bolts as anchors in a lot of location for multipitches and that probably influences how we tend to teach techniques.
I agree what he's doing is actually pretty quick - I would consider something like that for good belay ledges on easier climbs. He doesn't show it but it seems like it would be ridiculously fast to take out if you switch leads (as he mentions). Plus you need very little gear. Fast & light.
However like you said I also prefer not to be part of the belay myself, just in case. However the interesting thing is that in case of a higher fall factor (say you switch leads, and your partners falls before he puts protection in) I bet this system would actually fare better because the belayer would move around & dissipate lots of energy which wouldn't have to go to the anchor, or to the falling climber...
I think your last point is one of the most important. You can use the rope and still build a master point to belay off of that you aren’t inherently tied into. It seems to me that escaping this system would either be extremely contrived or would involve transferring the load to a single piece of pro. KISS
Ammoniummetavanadate my thoughts exactly I was always taught to have 3 pieces in to build an anchor and to belay 2nd climber from anchor not yourself so the load is on the anchor not the person. Must be taught differently there.
The idea for this one is that you will be sat/stood in one place loading the anchors constantly and not moving so no need to be self equalizing and the initial set up is via the clove hitches (in reach at the anchor out of reach at the belay loop).
It is easier to escape the system than you first think. Granted more difficult than if you have set up in guide mode or a sling focal point but perfectly easy none the less.
like most things a little bit of practice now and again and you can do it quite quickly - we got timed on one of my courses years ago!! Thankfully never had to escape the system for anything yet.
Just another method for the tool bag ;)
I liked your video but I’m curious as to why you attached your belay device to the fig 8 knot loop on your harness, I’m just curious because wouldn’t that mean that if the climber were to fall you wouldn’t be able escape from the system? If you tied another fig 8 knot as an isolation and clipped it to your harness before you made the system you could then belay off that loop instead and if the climber were to fall you wouldn’t be stuck tied into the system, and it wouldn’t use much more rope if that was a concern.
In that situation you have to rebuild the anchor. Given how rare it is for you to need to escape the system, I think it's a fair tradeoff for the advantages a rope anchor has
This is what I was going to say. Though I'd also like to add that even if he doesn't need to escape the system, he's got everything on that fig 8 not with zero redundancy.
I'm curious isn't the vector angle more than 60 degrees? Is that what we always try to accomplish? Just asking not criticism
Is there any reason using the rope loop that attached to the harness as the master's point? A slightly modification will make escaping the system much easier, e.g. tie another loop and attach it to the harness with a carabiner, and use this separated loop to belay. One can easily escape from the system.
th-cam.com/video/xB5SzGWN-rs/w-d-xo.html
I've seen something like this, but that's when you still have another reachable master point.
Hi Adrian thanks for the video! Most people are taking issue with using the rope in the anchor which has it's pros and cons as you acknowledged but I have a different question.
If your second leads the next pitch and takes a big fall after already placing a piece or two with these two nuts (or any passive gear) as your only anchor points they may pull out because of the upward pull introduced if you the belayer get pulled above the pieces. That will leave the leader's one or two pieces placed as the only points of attachment for both of you to the wall, and they are less likely to be as solid as anchor pieces you've had more time and possibly a ledge to place at.
Of course you can mitigate this risk by extending the anchor like you did in the second half of the video, because you'd have to go flying what looks like 5m+ up before you'd be pulling up on the pieces, but you'd still be pulling outward on the pieces before then. Or you could place a multi-directional piece, such as a cam in a horizontal crack, as part of the anchor as that would hold upward pull. Alternatively, you could place a piece that specifically protects against an upward pull like in this video: th-cam.com/video/1_6AcbwV2ac/w-d-xo.html
Is there any reason you don't mention this or opt for one of those strategies? Most multipitch trad anchor instructional videos seem not to acknowledge that risk but maybe there is a reason.
If the leader has placed good gear then it may well be as well placed as the gear for the belay.
This is just part of lead climbing on multi pitch routes.
It's all about making the decisions dependent on the climb. If you think that due to a run out and sketchy gear on the pitch or that the belayer is far lighter than the leader then it might be a good idea to place some gear to hold them down. More often however is that you will have built a belay for the second coming up the way and then the next pitch is a traverse so before the leader sets of you would need to add an anchor to take a sideways pull rather than just a downwards pull.
It is all about the dynamic risk assessment you do in your head really.
Ref the cam point - you should still place cams with the direction of pull.
I suppose this is just a summary video and doesn't go over those points.
Yeah they did a few vids in this series but they need to be short simple and cover the main points. I have never been pulled up that drastically so far :P
I'm just quite heavy and climb with mostly smaller partners so it's something I need to be aware of.
It would have to be a massive fall to be fair. I have taken and held some massive falls indoors and neither I or my climbing partner have never been lifted that far off the ground apart from when I have jumped slightly to give a nice soft catch.
Honestly It would have to be a massive fall with a huge weight disparity. Even when jumping to give a soft catch on sports routes I have never got to the first clip; ever.
i like how he's talking to the crack and not the camera.
Great video and some ideal tips and tricks.
My only big issue is the anchor is not easily escaped by the belayer as you are tied in. It's much more practical to build the system then clip in, not be a part of the system.
A number of comments are rather critical of this - I suspect people from North America, where this approach isn't too common. I would invite those who feel inclined to dismiss this approach to try to find reasons/situation where you actually would be better off (or have no choices) with his approach. Let's see:
- For some reason (accident, dropped stuff etc.) you are midway up a multipitch and all you have to build anchors are a couple biners, nuts/cams & the the rope. You may have dropped stuff, or it stayed with the 2nd at the last transition or whatever. You would certainly be glad to be able to build an anchor with just the rope then. On top of that, you would certainly be glad you practiced it in a relatively safe/controlled climb rather than with a couple more pitches to go, then a few rappels to get back down & the sun quickly fading below the horizon....
- Marginal gear/placements/rock at the anchor. It seems to be that having the belayer directly in the system, with significant length of dynamic rope included & clove hitches (which are going to slip/shift somewhat and thus take force out of any dynamic load) is a pretty good thing to do in that circumstance.
- Widely spaced placements - let's say you're at the belay ledge, and you have very few placements options that are somewhat far appart. If you're going to use cords, then you may not have much choice to have a dangerously wide angle built into the anchor. Chances are using rope you can always extend the anchor more and thus make the angle less of a problem.
Will I start doing that every pitch? Certainly not, but I think I will definitely try it out to get the hang of it. Mostly for the reasons mentioned above - when poop hits the fan hard, the more tools you have at your disposal, the better are your odds....
Francis Vachon Happy to chat and explain the many reasons and situations where you are better off if you like.? Here’s just one of many: 1) long pitches often are rope stretchers so there’s no rope left over to build a rope belay..2)...3)...4)
Well, my point is this just a method. Comments saying "but slings..." aren't very relevant.
If you don't have the right size of cam at your disposal, obviously you're not going to build your anchor using cams. However this doesn't make poor or somewhat invalid building an anchor using cams.
If you don't have a lot of rope, well obviously you're not going to build the anchor with the rope. As with the cams, it doesn't invalidate that strategy.
His method seems good to use in the circumstances in which it is appropriate. Just like opposing quickdraws are fine for most sport routes, but not for multi-pitches.
You laid out a very easily met challenge of “try and find a reason” so I did, their are many more. However, as for the general methodology he follows, it is a very suitable tool in the right circumstances but those circumstances are rare. I am in fact from the UK and after travelling extensively almost never use these techniques as they are slow, cumbersome, limiting and hinder advanced system and techniques that might be added on as a climber encounters more advanced climbing problems. There is nothing wrong per say with what he showed but i don’t use a rotary phone anymore either.
Let me ask you what he would do if the 2nd fell and needed assistance? In his set up you have to escape from the belay plus the other end of the rope is also not available? What would he do if wanted to block lead pitches? The uk set up is best for 2 main reasons. 1) it can protect bad pieces by adding your body into a system or 2) if you need to use the rope to extend as the anchor pieces/tree/ gear is far away from the edge. Other than those i have only found negatives to using this system.
I use the rope building an anchor, I just don't put myself into the system. I use a master point and belay the second off of that.
Now, this method is super quick and efficient with rope so from that aspect I like it, but it also makes escaping the belay almost impossible and forces you to stand in a single position to weight the anchor.
Hello, can I have a questions? What you will do if your partner will fall in overhang? And why are you not using the belay device like in multipitch climb for second climber? Thanks for answer. Daniel
This device (the DMM Pivot) is being used in the standard belaying method so there would be no problem if the second falls. I take it you are asking why he isn't using it in the autoblock guide mode? you could do but this works fine too.
I hop[e that answers your question.
dmmclimbing.com/dmm-pivot-belay-device/
th-cam.com/video/XqG94vAGuIQ/w-d-xo.html
Before people gob off on this take a look at what you need in your logbook to go for the BMG scheme
I'm not saying this guy isn't a good alpinist but the anchor is still reckless.
How and where would you create your masterpoint if you wanted to use the ATC's auto-locking mode? Would you tie a figure 8 or overhand in the slack of rope between the two clove-hitches?
one of very rare videos where climber is attached/secured to the anchor whole time. Thanks.
thanks Conan O'Brien!
isn't there too many carabiners on a main rope loop? the one that goes through your harness?
@filimonchik If you're referring to the two clove hitched 'biners in the anchor system, there aren't actually too many on the rope loop per se. In this configuration the 'biners are linking the anchor legs to the loop serving as the main/master/power point of the anchor. Independent of other factors, this is fine. HOWEVER, there are a few things I don't like [and I think you’re onto something once we add the 3rd ‘biner]…
_Note: these points of contention are things that can be overcome. As such, please keep in mind, these are according to MY preferences. There's more than one way to skin a cat. YMMV._
1. That 3rd ‘biner with the belay device is also clipped into the same loop [i.e. directly onto anchor]. => No real dynamic belay or force absorption from the belayer, which would be nice, having only 2 pieces in this anchor with one tucked behind a flake. This is one of the primary advantages of using an indirect belay negated => IMO better to set up so belayer isn’t part of the master point [see point #2&3].
2. The loop serving as the master point is also his direct tie-in connection between rope and harness. => If his climbing partner is injured such that he needs to escape the belay, it’s gonna be rough [i.e. extra work].
3. Unless I overlooked something, if there’s any need to escape the belay, there are some sizable hurdles to overcome solely due to the anchor construction [leaving aside concern over his personal tie-in]. These include: load transfer of anchor legs off of tie-in loop using some friction hitch artistry; transfer of climber’s weight off the tie-in loop to anchor [couple knots and more friction hitches]; and then getting himself disconnected from the system. Keep in mind all this has to be done while weighted. No thanks. :)
4. This last criticism is really moot compared to the above, but worth consideration. If I had two screw-locking ‘biners next to each other like he does, I would ideally prefer two different types, or _asymmetrical_ D’s and reversed. The reasoning is based on an unpleasant surprise I got at the anchor of a top-rope route many years ago. I had the rope running through two LOCKED symmetric D ‘biners [opposite and opposed, as one does], which were connected to a quad anchor. When I climbed to the anchor, I saw that the two lockers-due to movement back and forth on anchor-had rubbed the screw-locks loose and aligned such that they were holding both gates partially OPEN [spine of one pushing on the screw-lock barrel on the gate of the other]. Yikes! I haven’t paired 2 lockers on a TR anchor since. If I hadn’t seen it myself, I wouldn’t believe it. So, even if you’re skeptical, please just keep stashed somewhere in your memory that some dude said that it’s possible for 2 of the same screw-lockers to hold themselves open. This is not nearly as significant in this application, since they're always visible, and possibly separated by cloves, but it's extra safety that doesn't even take an extra second.
Assuming we’re using the rope for anchor, I think I would prefer to…
1. Keep belayer’s personal tie-in to rope OUT of master point [clove hitch to anchor a bit above tie-in fig-8 works].
2. Connect legs to a single master point that's part of anchor. To do so, leave everything in series as-is, but use a knot in the central bight instead of clove hitch [fig-8 or alpine butterfly would work well]. DON'T try to tie all legs into one master point like a cordalette :) heh.
With those two changes, now he can belay off harness, or direct, or redirect as he chooses, but still is very simply/easily able to escape belay, set up 3:1 haul/pulley, move around, etc. etc.
Here’s a simple version in my crappy diagram below: clip ‘biners of C1 & C2 to the bight of 8 [now you have a master point independent of the belayer], adjust C1/C2 for anchor leg equalization, clip BD to belayer or to master point [your choice], pull up slack & thread BD for belay of second climber, done!
If belayer wants more mobility, then start with more slack on belayer’s side and insert C0 [clip C0 to master point and adjust length as desired].
The nice thing about simple rope anchors [in addition to being SERENE and no extra weight] is that they can be iterative -> can add in another 8, C3, C4, etc. …but be reasonable-no rats’ nests :).
N1 N2
/ \ / \
/ \ / \
C1 8 C2 _ / \ _ = rope
_/ _/ N1/2 = nut/chock #1/#2
(C0) _/ _/ C1/2 = clove hitch to ‘biner #1/#2
/ / 8 = figure-8 on a bight
belayer BD BD = belay device
\
\
climber
_edit to insert note_
why not clove hitch the loose loop to carabiner ?.... it will surely make your anchors more robust
I am wondering why he didn't use ATC's auto locking function to belay, worrying about the 2nd climber couldn't climb up?
i agree. it seems awkward using the atc like this here because you have to pull up on the break hand to catch the second's fall. granted its not a lead fall but would get tiring to repeatedly belay like this for a multi-pitch trad route.
👌🏻
Curious how to adapt this to 3 pieces in the wall
For both you would attach to a third piece of protection by repeating the method used to attach to the second piece in the out of reach example. By clipping the rope through a carabiner on the piece of protection and then attaching it to yourself with clovehitch
I've always wondered; If there are no rap bolts, how do you get down with your gear on a trad climb?
Joe L from my not very extensive experience, that doesnt often happen if it's a well established trad crag.
If theres no rap points, there's usually a walk off, worst case scenario some scrambling.
I've heard about rapping off of trees but that's not good for the tree and very risky for you.
Some rock features may allow you to tap off it too though (like a closed off pillar in a cave where the rope cant be removed by upward force).
Wires and biners can be considerably cheap if an emergency arises I suppose
Bring extra webbing and a quick link! Just sling a good tree or rock and rappel. Sacrificing a sling and quick link are much less expensive than gear. Plus, maybe it'll help the next group of climbers!
On a multi pitch climb you would have to leave gear. So yeah, not something you would do if not absolutely necessary...
I don't quite understand where a second should clip into when they arrive. Walk to the pieces while still being on a belay, clip into one of those and wait until you adjust the whole thing again to be close to the rock and clip into your rope loop???
That's a great way to get a backache
But how do you retrieve all the gear you left at the top for your anchor ?
I get it if there’s a way to walk off, but if there isn’t?
Find a good tree to rap off
Gotta love all the know-it-all chuffers straight out of their Learn To Lead class commenting on every Brit anchor video about how sketchy and unsafe their methods are.
There are some differences in climbing regions that might be over looked in the comments and video. I'm based in Squamish, Canada and there are tons of cracks everywhere, like super solid parallel cracks. I hardly bring wires and nuts with me at all, it's all cams. Hexes are a comedy routine. The thought of making a belay anchor with 2 nuts in a multi-pitch is really outlandish.
The video has some great info for the mountains and cliffs of this region I would guess, but if a professional guide did that while multi-pitching here in Squamish, they would be fired.
Aren't you supposed to belay from the anchor and with your Reverso in guide mode? There doesn't seem to be much braking with this let alone auto locking...
You can use the DMM Pivot (that is the one he has in this video) in guide mode but in this instance he is just using it in the normal belay fashion. It works perfectly well in the way and has plenty of braking force this way. It's not really a supposed to or not; you can use it in either way. DMM have some good videos and how to's on their website for it.
Sorry, but a big leader fall will pull the belayer upwards and pull out the anchor. This happened many times in Yosemite valley on multi-pitch climbs. People go 600' or more to the ground. I was on Middle Cathedral DNB when this happened to a pair climbing East Buttress around the corner.
Man I would never use just two nuts as an anchor... Always at least three, preferably at least one being a solid cam.
Cams are a last resort in building anchors as they are so prone to walking with a constant tension, which could result in a loss of equilisation
I'm pretty sure it is impossible for a fully-weighted cam to walk. The pressure exerted on the lobes will keep it in place. If placed correctly, a cam is the optimal piece for an anchor.
Should have an American teach this
This is great, but my leader better have 3 anchiors if he's setting up a belay station on gear.
Shouldn't you use the belay device in "Guide Mode"? I think that in this way it's not effective at all!
This way is actually very effective and safe. Use of belay device in so called guide mode is a relatively new thing, and I always prefer it myself if possible, but used this technique for some years before the Reverso/Guide system kind of revolutionized things a little. If the anchor points are far apart, something not uncommon in the mountains, this method is still relevant.
I don't understand how it is related the use of this method to the fact that the anchor points are far apart. I don't think that it's effective because to brake properly the rope shouldn't enter and exit from the device along the same direction but, as I know, in opposite direction and it's not safe because it's not aulo blocking at all and if by mistake you let the rope your partner can fall. Finally, before the "new thing" of the so called guide mode it was used something like the GiGi from Kong or, even before, the munter hitch that are both, in my opinion, safer than that.
You see the use of this method every day, in every gym all over, just with the belayer standing on the ground. Same principle, same rule - never let go of the brake rope. Since the introduction of the Sticht plate some 50 yrs ago this method has been common, at least in Europe, with minor variations. Pretty comfortable, I've climbed quite a few walls and pitches over the years this way. Nowadays I of course prefer Guide-mode, it is more convenient in most situations, and for sport climbing I've only used the GriGri for the past 20 years, but still in some situations I build an anchor with the rope and (more seldom) use the method shown in this video. It is bomber.
Yes but the working principle is completely different when used in a gym for belaying the person who climb (lead or moulinette) from the ground because the angle of the rope that you keep in your hand is intuitively correct while to belay a person from the top you must make sure that the rope forms an angle of 180° making it more difficult because you should keep the end of the rope not beside your leg as you normally do but instead in an upper position (sorry for my bad explanation but I hope it's somehow clear because it can be very dangerous!)
This is a proven method over many years by climbers and professional guides alike, I did use it myself for 10+ years, also teaching beginners without any incidents whatsoever. Quite the opposite; it's quick to learn and as easy to perform safely as belaying on toprope in the gym, not more or less dangerous than most other methods I would say. It even has its advantages to the guide mode, especially in case one has to lower the second, something that can be a bit awkward with a Reverso/Guide device in guide mode. You're describing something that is not based on your own experience, as far as i understand it (rspct, peace and love!). Everyone is of course free to have any opinion they like in this matter and I'm not the one to tell you that you're wrong, yet here I am, telling you that you're wrong :)
I might not be a guide,but I'm a very experienced alpinist with extensive experience in west alp routes, physicist on top. This is madness. Objective risks in big climbs are a fact of life, hail mary climbing anchors are not. Im apalled you keep the video up out of some misguided pride or whatever
Lol I bet the amga guides who watch this r go man be butthurt at the two prices for an anchor
No way to easily escape your anchor if you need to perform a rescue or leave the belay for other reasons. Also, no dynamic equalization like offered with other systems. I remember reading somewhere that the amount of dynamic stretch in an anchor like this is entirely negligible compared to the climbing end stretch due to the short lengths and fact that the load is split between two strands.
Not true - the difference between nylon (somewhat stretchy) and dyneema (not strechy at all) is enough to make a difference in controlled tests by DMM ("DMM Technical video on slings at anchor" on youtube). They also do testing with the rope and it performs very well on factor 2 falls. Cloves hitches also make it better (though you can certainly include cloves with slings/cords as well).
The need to escape the belay, as you pointed out, is a very valid concern. However it has to be weighted against other pros & cons and doesn't in itself make this approach a no-go.
Dynamic equalization - if you use slings with knots, you don't have that any more or less than with this. If you use the sliding X, then that's actually been rather discredited as an approach in most cases because even though you do get equalization, if a piece fails you then shock load your anchor onto the other piece. So essentially dynamic equalization may make it less likely that a piece will fail, but puts you in bigger trouble if one does. In fact, I would argue that since the belayer is in the system, this contributes to make it more equalize - the belayer as some margin to built the anchor so that it is equalized in a direction in which he would be belaying (and then since he would stay in that general area, the anchor is equalized given his position).
Francis, the DMM test is dropping a static load directly on the anchors. In this case, you are correct. I referred to a situation where a portion of dynamic rope existed between the anchor and climber. In this case, the single dynamic length will absorb the most significant portion of shock, and the relatively short, doubled section of the anchor takes up comparitively little. The only case where this wouldn't be true is when immediately starting a lead where a high factor fall is a potential. Yes, there are measurable differences in an engineered scenario like DMM, but I would question that holding true under most realistic scenarios. Not saying other rope systems aren't good, they are awesome. But the one used on this video is less so IMO. The biggest reason being lack of equalization, second being not being able to escape.
Well, of course once the climber is dozens of feet & a couple protection/bolts above the anchor, the anchor itself doesn't matter much, regardless of how you built it. From that perspective, it is somewhat pointless to talk about anchor configuration since it'll play little to no part in the equation, except perhaps keeping the belayer close to the anchor after he is yanked off his stance by the falling climber. But the anchor shouldn't be build for the eventuality of a fall with significant lengths of rope which guarantees a low fall factor: it should be built keeping in mind what happens in case of a high fall factor, especially if there are reasons to suspect challenging moves immediately after leaving the anchor and if there are doubts about the capacity of that anchor (or the rock) to sustain a high fall factor without breaking.
So the DMM test is very relevant in the sense that this is the worst-case scenario and worst-case scenarios should be taken into account. It does show that nylon as better shock absorbing properties in cases of high fall factor, but less so than the rope itself and that clove hitches also help reducing the shock on the system. I'm not sure I get your point - when you say "but I would question that holding true under most realistic scenario". Their conclusion actually fit rather well with what we already know about the properties of the material & configurations they used - yet you would dismiss the result because (for some not really specified reason) they may not hold true in practice? This seems closer to beliefs than to a fact-based assessment.
I am not sure I understand your views about equalization. The sliding X is more and more questioned because if any piece fails, you're shock-loading whatever remains of your anchor which isn't good. If you're not talking about the sliding X, then you're still making an anchor with a knot & a focal point, which wouldn't be better or worst in terms of being equalized since in both cases you still need to define a general direction of pull for which your anchor will be equalized.
As mentioned in my other post, this doesn't mean I would use his system all the time - it would be pretty silly IMO if you've got 2 shiny new bolts next to one another as an anchor. The main criticism I would have with regards to the video is that he doesn't really highlight in which cases he would take this approach, as opposed to just a sling & locking biners...
WoT, much.
You don't need "dozens of feet & a couple protection/bolts above the anchor" to mitigate a high factor fall, you are shaky on your physics there. You can begin mitigating that as soon as you leave the anchor with a properly placed piece of pro.
I never said anything about sliding X, they are terrible. You can build a variety of anchors which allow you to move, adjust position, and escape belays when needed, including ones using your rope, slings, or cord. This particular one doesn't
The point about materials is entirely debatable, but from the test I have seen, it's entirely mitigated again by just being smart placing protection. I have rarely ever seen a scenario where you would have to leave a belay without being able to mitigate a high factor fall, although I agree it can happen.
Oh boy this is a super English way of doing things. There are simpler and more effective systems out there.
This can literally be the simplest method of all especially when on half ropes; two bits of gear in then clove hitch each rope to one bit of gear each.....done....simple.
why not put the belay device in guide? the way he put it on make me think if the climber falls it would be hard to cam the atc. FYI, im not experienced which is why im asking
this seems like a really weird and convoluted way to build a trad anchor. Just use slings and cords. Easier, faster, allows for you to lead the next pitch, and gives a shelf to belay off of.
Slings and cords don't stretch as much as the rope. If you load the anchor directly and are only tied in with slings, you have a high chance or breaking the sling or ripping the anchors.
Pro. Tips. USE SILINGS
Why not just use what you have?
Sercan Dönmez what
What if the gear is too far apart to equalise using a sling? Say you only have two pieces of gear 3+ metres from each other, a sling isn't going to be able to equalise the two without creating an obtuse angle. I think that a rope is perhaps more effective in this situation.
Martin Giblin u can carry extra rope like 5-6 mm on your harness as like that situation
Martin Giblin its a bad position when you need escape the belay , you will have disturb the anchor
Don’t like it. I prefer an equalized sling. And a central carabiner. Even if you move left-right it’s always having the same tension on both anchors.
It's good to have multiple techniques in the tool box. you never know, you might have used all your slings up. also the fewer items in the safety chain the better.
@@davidcross30 Damn. Too bad there's not a way for me to add a ton of thumbs-ups/likes to a comment.These two simple yet absolutely critical statements alone deserve a bunch:
"It's good to have multiple techniques in the tool box."
"the fewer items in the safety chain the better."
Are you referring to a sliding x? That anchor is really dangerous...
Credibility to the guide and the video would be greater if he had tied in with a dressed figure 8 knot.
only one rope!!!!
not good.....
Duuuude for ffs stop putting things into your ropeloop!!!!!!!!!! NEVER use your ropeloop -.-
And also, LOL to the people saying they would never belay off only 2 pieces XD go climb real stuff ^^
duuuuude. Use the rope loop man it's fine and transfers the load to the anchor directly. literally 100s of thousands of people do it this way; it's how they IFMGA guides do it so if it's good for them it's good for all.
@@davidcross30 Dunno that I entirely agree with this statement. For self-rescue situations, having the tie-in loop in the master point is just one extra thing to deal with. I have no doubts that it's "good enough" for guides-and me-but a very minor modification makes "good enough" into "better" by taking the belayer's tie-in loop out of the system, using no extra gear. Simply replace the central clove with a fig-8 on a bight, and use that bight for the master point. Technically, the central clove is bumped to the anchor's leftmost strand and the fig-8 is replacing the belayer's tie-in, but you get the idea [or if not, see the bottom of my reply to filmonchik]..
@@chilli8364 100% get what you are saying. That is another way to do it too. I have never had to do any real rescues that have required me to escape the system, hauled clients past a tricky bit or lowered them to rest on a ledge etc a few times. If I thought that I might have to then I would think about doing it like you have said. Preventing the situations is the key (clearly rock fall or other crazy things aside but again I don't go out of my way to put myself in those situations.
A semi-direct belay (belaying from the tie in loop) is common when building your anchor with the rope, rather than slings, Also I have found means that the anchor is constantly loaded better than if I direct or indirect belay; this is important as dynema slings are not great with shock loading (see DMM's video on testing slings th-cam.com/video/iJ5dN0ZSv7w/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/w-d-xo.html) and it means that gear placements in the anchor are less likely to move/un-seat (particularly cams walking).
Like I said in one of my other post; have all the tools and know the pros and cons for them, then employ them in the right scenario and it's all gravy.
This is one of the reasons I love climbing; the many different ways to do stuff and things. Stay safe out there bud. :)
@@davidcross30 That's great info regarding relatively more consistent/constant loading with semi-direct vs others. Appreciated! Is that anecdotal or is there data that you're referencing?
Definitely makes sense compared to direct, and _maybe_ to indirect ...I could see that going both ways, depending on particulars of loading. I'm going to give semi-direct more serious consideration and examination next time I'm out.
Ah yes, I love a good drop test. And DMM rocks! ...at least I find myself drooling over their gear a lot. I have no idea whether it's the groove, or if they got the curve just right, or what, but Wallnuts slot easier/better than any others I've used. :)
Thanks again
_edit: typo_
@@chilli8364 I guess no one has (or is willing) paid anyone to get any data for how much trad gear moves when it is weighted-unweighted; so yeah just from use and courses and chatting with other peeps. I'm sure you have had a time when you have put some gear in and thought hmmmm it is in that slot but it will lift out quite easily? This is where keeping an anchor loaded would prevent that and yeah cams definitely walk when they wiggle, that is why we extend runners clipped to them. But yeah I do tend to in-direct if I'm using the ropes to build the anchor and this is usually when my partner is leading through or when I'm teaching a client to build an anchor at a stance using just the rope; I usually choose somewhere with loads of gear placement possibilities and I use the random more difficult ones leaving them with a nice easy set up.
DMM kit does indeed rock (pun intended ;@) I love their offset nuts, they are awesome and NEVER leave my rack. Check out their sister company Helix tactical too - not really climbing per say but the kit is awesome. helixtactical.com/Products.
P.S. I have liked this nice constructive chat we have had.
aaaaand the next crazy, tutorial videos done by british mountain guides... why do you always upload videos which are totally against the instruction manual of the manufactors. do you think those manufactors are stupid?
quick question:
1) limited breaking force (no plate mode)
2) if something happens you are tight in and need to build something to transfer the load. by doing so, you are constantly loaded by the weight of the second climber and your movement is limited...
3) what do you do if the second climber becomes the first? do you continue using your reverso that way? so in case of a fall the climber will fall next to you and probably under you and there will be no breaking at all...
summing up: complicated, not flexible, you can do it way better using ropes... dont listen to british mountain guides... I really need to start checking their stats on accidents. I wouldnt wonder if those are way higher than in the rest of the world...
1) This is the normal way to belay with the DMM pivot when not using it in the guide mode - plenty of braking force. It is in DMMs manual for this device I agree they aren't stupid and say that the device can be used in the the way he has in this video and in guide mode. It is called a semi-direct belay as opposed to guide mode or an Italian hitch straight to the anchor which is a direct belay method. Have you ever lowered someone with a device in guide mode?
2) Sure. But it is perfectly possible to escape this system if needs be (it's easier than you think). How many times have you had to escape the system? I have only had to do it whilst under training.
3) If the second is going to lead through, they get to the stance clip in (even just to one of the ropes is fine) to make themselves safe and you turn the belay plate 180 so that the dead rope is at the bottom (like when you normally lead belay), transfer the lead kit (have a cup of tea), then the second leads on. No idea how many times I (and 100's of thousands of other people) have done this without a problem.
I get what you are saying in that using a sling or two to build a belay is great as you might be able to use the belay plate in guide mode and it can be easier to escape the system. There are many ways to skin a cat and knowing that you can do it this way when you've used all your slings up, they won't reach from the gear to where you need to belay from or you know the second will just swing leads this is a quick easy way to do it.
If I am leading all pitches with students I'll try to use slings as it does make life easier unless I am getting them to start to build belays; but then that is a teaching thing rather than for speed or ease.
Bottom line really is everything he has done is safe, taught in in the books and on courses, is in the manuals for the equipment and is just another way to build an anchor. Different techniques for different scenarios.
@@davidcross30 sorry but I cannot see the method in the instruction manual dmmclimbing.com/DMMWales/Media/ProductInstructions/braking-devices-en-fr-de-it-es-pt-nl.pdf
Ape man is a good name.
1) How is the breaking force in ANY way limited here? If you've locked off the rope away from the climber they are NOT going to fall.
2) You CAN escape the belay. It's a tad harder, but not much.
3) This is a fair point, change arounds are harder, again not impossible though but this is a factor you should build into your assessment of HOW you're going to build your belay.
Flexibility in how you choose to build your belay is an important skill.
This method is ideal for building belays on gritstone edges. Short climb = lots of rope left over. Gear at the top of the edge is often quite far apart and often is much further away than a my biggest sling/cord could cope with.
This method is less ideal on long multi pitches where you can't afford to lose precious meters of rope and where gear placements for a belay are in easy reach.
@@apeman2601 FYI the instruction manuals are often written by the marketing department rather than the engineers, something to consider
@@benschuster9792 you are kidding me, right? Maybe mkting suggests a last wording review before publishing but there’s got to be some engineering behind the manuals of all climbing equipment
This was how I was taught years ago, but these days typically only will use it mountaineering. It's a fast, efficient method to extend the anchor to the edge from far back, so great on ledgy multi-pitches. 2 piece anchors are out of fashion, but when the weather turns and speed is a a factor of safety, techniques like this might help you get up and off faster.
A modification is to use the 2 carabiners as a shelf. Once the anchor is set and connected to your belay loop, add clove hitches to the gear ends. Connect your PAS to the 2 carabiners (they become the shelf) and unclip them from your belay loop. You never leave the system, but are not no longer directly involved in the falling forces. You can either use the 2 carabiners as the master point, or add a third to join them into a single point (or just use one HMS in the first place). You have the option of adding a sliding X if you feel self equalization is required.
This could be built with as little as 2 bits of gear and 3 locking biners (2 D, 1 HMS). A useful technique to keep in mind when you've finished a long pitch and run out of other gear/slings to build your anchor, or dropped your cordelette swapping leads etc.
If I have 2 bomber pieces in and 10 feet of dynamic doubled rope connecting me to them, there a large factor of safety. But if you want more anchor points you can add an independent anchor, like a 2 (or 3 or 4) point quad, that joins the system at the master point. If you ever need 6 pieces at your anchor, that's some shitty rock! Good luck. lol.
This was how I was taught years ago, but these days typically only will use it mountaineering. It's a fast, efficient method to extend the anchor to the edge from far back, so great on ledgy multi-pitches. 2 piece anchors are out of fashion, but when the weather turns and speed is a a factor of safety, techniques like this might help you get up and off faster.
A modification is to use the 2 carabiners as a shelf. Once the anchor is set and connected to your belay loop, add clove hitches to the gear ends. Connect your PAS to the 2 carabiners (they become the shelf) and unclip them from your belay loop. You never leave the system, but are not no longer directly involved in the falling forces. You can either use the 2 carabiners as the master point, or add a third to join them into a single point (or just use one HMS in the first place). You have the option of adding a sliding X if you feel self equalization is required.
This could be built with as little as 2 bits of gear and 3 locking biners (2 D, 1 HMS). A useful technique to keep in mind when you've finished a long pitch and run out of other gear/slings to build your anchor, or dropped your cordelette swapping leads etc.
If I have 2 bomber pieces in and 10 feet of dynamic doubled rope connecting me to them, there a large factor of safety. But if you want more anchor points you can add an independent anchor, like a 2 (or 3 or 4) point quad, that joins the system at the master point. If you ever need 6 pieces at your anchor, that's some shitty rock! Good luck. lol.
This was how I was taught years ago, but these days typically only will use it mountaineering. It's a fast, efficient method to extend the anchor to the edge from far back, so great on ledgy multi-pitches. 2 piece anchors are out of fashion, but when the weather turns and speed is a a factor of safety, techniques like this might help you get up and off faster.
A modification is to use the 2 carabiners as a shelf. Once the anchor is set and connected to your belay loop, add clove hitches to the gear ends. Connect your PAS to the 2 carabiners (they become the shelf) and unclip them from your belay loop. You never leave the system, but are not no longer directly involved in the falling forces. You can either use the 2 carabiners as the master point, or add a third to join them into a single point (or just use one HMS in the first place). You have the option of adding a sliding X if you feel self equalization is required.
This could be built with as little as 2 bits of gear and 3 locking biners (2 D, 1 HMS). A useful technique to keep in mind when you've finished a long pitch and run out of other gear/slings to build your anchor, or dropped your cordelette swapping leads etc.
If I have 2 bomber pieces in and 10 feet of dynamic doubled rope connecting me to them, there a large factor of safety. But if you want more anchor points you can add an independent anchor, like a 2 (or 3 or 4) point quad, that joins the system at the master point. If you ever need 6 pieces at your anchor, that's some shitty rock! Good luck. lol.
kin-ell dude ,I heard you the first time :-}