@@PeyTalksAnime If I recall correctly, classical tragedy was when "hero" of the story had a fate that regardless of what they do they will end up badly. Tragedy comes from there being no hope to change things. Plus usually it was "protag-kun's" own actions that made the outcome inevitable - for this additional knife-twisting.
Agree. When a story turns unhappy, and all hope disappears, then all that is left to you is despair. Stark's brother Stoltz is in his last fight that he knows is the end, but he refuses this despair. He tells little Stark to leave the battlefield which is his final cling to hope, "At least one member of my family will survive". It is difficult in the extreme to spit in the eye of despair when it's in your face!
@@folcwinep.pywackett8517 im german and i dont exactly remember the name of starks brother, but 'stolz' is written without the 't' in it in german. it means proud/pride btw.
Im an ecologist and i see around me how the absence of hope leads to apathy and standstill. When people lose hope, they lose the idea that what they do matters. Frieren shows that we might die, we might suffer and have a very sad life, but what we chose and do has impact, what we choose and do has consequences for others. When we strive for better, we might not see it, but others will. And it can tell this story exactly because it is sad.
The opposite of hope is despair. I remember one line in Violet Evergarden, an accomplished literary author has lost his only daugher so goes the episode and he says at one point:" my audience deserves to be happy". Since loss and pain is an unavoidable part of life, hope is the only way the author can truly make his audience happy
I do like sad stories from time to time. But when it comes to stories that evoke dread and depression, I can only watch them very rarely. The part in Frieren that has it a bit (assuming you can relate to that part in some way) is "Old Man Voll" or "Grandfather Voll" - depending on translation. Yes, there is hope there as well and the fact that this chapter is relatively short helps. It doesn't overwhelm you. But as a person with brain damage and problem with memories that spends his entire life taking care of 2 disabled people - it hits very hard. And I know that even for people who don't have that personal experiences it is a sad chapter. But Frieren doesn't dwell on it. It doesn't try to make you feel despair. It shows you something tragic and moves on. Really beautiful chapter in really beautiful series.
Pey, this more than anything is why I love Frieren. Thank you for addressing the topic! You are not alone in getting very invested in stories, feeling the full weight of the characters' hope/despair. I gave Frieren a shot precisely because I've been examining what draws me to the media that I like, what role it fills for me. I need reminders of hope, or at least fictional pocket universes for my imagination to escape to when the world feels hopeless. I'm struggling to find many stories with both quality and hope, in any form of media.
I dont comment much, but i want to say that im also a sensitive consumer of media, so when you talk about media in your videos, it really hits deep. I personally love this series and i hope to see more.
i agree with you so much! this is the reason I love Freiren so much, it feels real, and not everything is happy but it has hope and that just warms my heart and makes me feel hopeful too
Freiren is this sort of hopeful and tragic, beautiful and melancholy story because of the brilliance of its setup. It opens with the end of Himmel's journey. He's achieved an epic goal and as far as we know lived a life he was satisfied with and which was respected by all. Yet Freiren did not live it with him, because she did not recognize the deep impression their journeys made in her soul and what Himmel's mortality would cost her. That ignorance is the foundational challenge and tragedy of Freiren. And it is brilliant, because every further beautiful and happy recollection is intensified by it and intensifies it. The moments matter more because they remain. The tragedy hits harder because we grow to love Himmel and her party through fond memories. And because Himmel lived a good life, and a full life, and a long life... We do not really hope he can be returned to it. Yet also the story is fundamentally hopeful, because of Stark and Fern and the world itself. The world is still good and full of beauty and vibrant people. The young still have their whole lives ahead of them, and the young and old can both do better this go around. It's gloriously structured to reinforce the best parts the longer it goes on.
100% The world as a whole is better and safer than its ever been. We just have the capacity to pinpoint negative events down to the exact time and location in real time. Something we couldnt even do 30 years ago. We are just more hyper aware of the differences that separate people, be it money, fame, or even family.
Excellent comment which carries much truth! When I was very young, my father took me on a long visit to his hometown where he grew up, and introduced me to one of his friends,, a man born a slave in 1864. That old world of tragedy brought on by other human beings is not that far away. The world in general is a better and safer place today than it has ever been in human history even acknowledging the horrible things that are happening now!
Just to play devil's advocate, sure we're safer than ever, but we're also closer to complete annihilation than ever. In old wars, even if it was a massacre, there would always be a winner. But in modern times, pick your poison; atomic war, bio-weapons, climate change, or any of the other possible things that can wipe out all of humanity if not all life on Earth, which would leave no winners at all.
I'm really glad for you explaining why tragedies exist, their appeal, and advantages. So many people, on both ends of the spectrum, I hear say how there's too much of "this" or "that" type of story, and try to justify their own distastes by pointing out "inherent" flaws in the structure and/or genres. Of course, the reality is that there are enough of almost every type of story, new and old, to satiate us for a lifetime. Unlike you, who even recognizes some stories are great BECAUSE they're tragedies despite not enjoying the storytelling format, so many so-called critics don't know how to separate their own preferences from actual in-depth and critical evaluations. I understand evaluations are in big part subjective in nature, but one also has to recognize that a story trying to achieve something you don't like isn't a bad thing.
I definitely feel the same, I most often prefer very dark or sad media, it can be such a raw and cathartic way to experience those emotions, but I find that the best tragedies do have that sense of hope buried deep within them; it's hard to get invested when you know nothing will ever work out and there's no path to something better. Made in Abyss, Berserk, Bojack Horseman, any Yoko Taro game, Chainsaw Man, there are a ton of great tragedies but there's always a flickering light inside them, driving you forward.
Frieren hit so close to home because I had lost my grandmother a couple months prior, and it helped me reflect on those somber feelings of regret and longing, and remembering the great moments just as Frieren does Himmel.
My dad and I also spend a lot of time consuming media together. I’ve been telling him about some of my favorite shows recently and he constantly asks why I would watch such sad stories. You hit the nail on the head for me. I love hopeful stories, ones that acknowledge sorrow and trials but point me towards something more. I can’t wait to yap to him about this video later. Thank you for your amazing videos and thoughts! I always look forward to them! 😊
I appreciate you work. There was this slight variation to the inflection on the delivery of “you” at the very end, and I found myself bracing. So often have I been conditioned by media that intensively genuine moments of positivity like that get undercut by bathos or lampshading that my unconscious looking for any clue as to when the script would flip. And this is what I find myself so valuing about your work; it is unflinchingly sincere. It’s grounded in a real care and a real insight and a real diligent craftsmanship. Thank you for making art.
I watched a video essay that hit on similar notes to this one a few months ago and it really helped clarify what it was about a lot of recent fantasy that didn’t hit for me, so when I saw you also talking about it, it’s helped me realize how much people need hopeful stories and hopeful fantasy to return
As someone whose body has been destroyed by severe covid early in 2020, thanks for this video. But it's really hard to be optimistic when you're just 30 and you have a dead left lung and a swollen heart. I try, but it's just not the same as before
This video got me thinking. I think a share the same feeling as you, I just didn't know what it was. Sometimes it's really hard to put into words why we like certain shows/movies and why we dislike others. Thank you for the great video! 💛💛
I agree with you a lot, and it is something that I'm trying to convey in my own writing. The world might be filled with loss and suffering, but we can get better, and hope is the last thing we should lose.
I completely relate to this!!!! This helped me understand how to put my likes and dislikes into words. I've always loved sad stories but hated sad people
I greatly appreciate optimism in stories too. However, it is easy for the writers themselves to not even know how important it is; if a character gives up, sometimes that is enough to end the story and that is not what writers want, unless they have finished telling the story they want to tell and the end of the story is the end of the character. I think the truest of tragedies is when a writer has the makings of a great story but fails in its execution because they didn't understand what about it was most important, and sometimes I feel like often that is optimism.
I heavily agree with this, and I've been able to identify it for a long time, but I really appreciate your breakdown of the source of this want for hope and optimism. Love the videos!
Ah, so you too got that dead inside feeling after finishing cyberpunk edge runners. I'm never watching it again. There are no happy endings in night city.
I love Edgerunners- but what sucks so much is how it feels like there is hope in that show until those last few episodes throw you for a total loop. It teases you with a bit of hope and then slams you with overwhelming despair. I don’t regret watching that show due to the catharsis it gave me (sometimes you just need a good cry from a show…), however I definitely don’t think I could watch it again.
Hi Pey, I just wanted to congratulate you. I started watching your exploring Frieren series from the 3rd video and i haven't stopped watching them since. recently i looked at your channel for the first time in a while and the difference in views has gone up like crazy. keep up the good work man. i will continue watching all your vids every time you release them.
I had a similar conversation with my mom a while ago. I said I only consume "happy" stories, but what I meant i that I allways needed to be some hope to hang on to, otherwise I tend to just tune out and stop engaging a self defense mechanis. But lately my life has gotten a lot better, so I probably could take a lot more tragedy, since I can allways come back to my current life, and before I never wanted to.
I've watched every single one of these and I haven't commented on any of them. But I think this is one of your best videos yet in the Frieren series. Your description of being emotionally invested in shows and clinging on to a hope was so well illustrated because I do the same but never was able to put it into words. Awesome stuff bro
This almost perfectly describes my taste in media and why I love Frieren so much (it’s my favorite anime). I never really had the words for it before, so I just would say I liked “happy” media even though I knew that wasn’t quite right. The more things I found that didn’t fit that idea, the less I could put my finger on what I liked about them. NieR Automata is a good example of this; I adore that game and its story, but it’s hardly happy. This video put what I like about games like automata and shows like frieren into words in a way I wa never able to before. Loving the series!!!
I love Joel Haver's vids and style! The deadpan humor with Trent Lenkarsky is so fantastic, and his retro animation videos from years back are still great. Nice to see another link. Keep up the great work, Pey.
In my mind, the key to making any tragic story work is its ability to evoke catharsis. You have to be able to have moments of emotional release in a tragedy that feel earned and appropriate. I think the reason why something like Cyberpunk: Edgerunners, which is a technically proficient show, is consistent with its genre, and is thematically poignant most of the time doesn't always click with people is that some feel the story doesn't have an appropriate level of catharsis to balance out all the bad hands the characters are dealt. The emotional release one gets from watching the show is measurably small in comparison to the amount of suffering and loss experienced by the main characters to the point where to some, it doesn't matter if the characters accept their lots in life and make peace with the tragedy of it all, the person watching it all unfold can't make peace with how rigged life seems against the characters.
Pey, i really like your videos. I think I'm also a sensitive consumer of media, and due to tragic past events i hold on to a string of hope. As a writer, i really love watching your videos as it mirrors my own feelings about media and brings me new ideas on how to stop, take a breath, and make my fantasy worlds just a little bit kinder.
Edgerunners makes me feel terrible, but that's what makes it good. It isn't trying to impart lessons the audience should aspire towards. It is a classic Cautionary Tale, a warning for us and future generations. We're meant to hate what happens, because this is a fate best avoided. If Frieren was a story of the adventurer's party, and ended with Frieren filled with regret, having lost the chance to connect with people who cared for her, Frieren would have also been a Cautionary Tale. While I'm glad Frieren isn't a Cautionary Tale, Edgerunners is all the better for being one.
for me, personally, tragedy is the best genre, because I seek emotions from the story and the harderst emotion to evoke in daily life is the exaggerated amout of sympathy that you can only release with tears. However, I get your point of unreasonable suffering being too much. There are several shows with to much pain and shows with hopeless endings. Seeing them is painful, but pain is what helps us feel alive.
this really made me reanalyze why my favorite anime, assassination classroom, is my favorite anime. the story is rooted in a tragedy either koro sensei or the world are doomed. you know from the first episode that one of those will die by the end of the anime. but it doesn't matter because of the hope and joy and happiness shared throughout the story. even when the class is going through some horrible event they're doing it together and that's how they get through it, including having to assassinate their teacher even if he's the only person that believes in them. it has so much hope and yet so much tragedy and i love it so much
I see the best tragic stories as being built upon an incredibly important absence, and I find the pursuit far more meaningful than any sense of satisfaction or empowerment. Most of my favorite stories that aren't tragedies only differentiate themselves in the sense that they are able to give voice to that absence, normally right at the end.
Ive watched your videos for months and i love your videos and and happy to see you gain a larger following. I just checked out you music and it’s amazing keep up the great work
It's very interesting to hear your perspective on this. Especially because I love tragedies in all of their forms and a lot of the shows, movies or other art that I find truly beautiful are very tragic and feeling "devastated", to some extent, is a large part of what makes them resonate with me. Sometimes the feeling of having your hopes and dreams crushed is exactly what I want from art.
I am the same way when it comes to consuming media. I find I am a deeply emotional person, even during conversations if I know I put a lot of thought into what to say because the conversation is extremely important I begin to tear up.
Oddly, I find myself to be similar! I do enjoy both hopeful and tragic media, and tragic media does hit hard and resonate with me when I see it… but I don’t try to seek it out. I’m surrounded in depressing stuff and I want to find hope and good things to look forward to.
This is probably my favorite video of the series I relate soo much to what you said I loved frieren , ascendance of a bookworm they are very chill and hopeful But there are shows that i think i will love like monster and AOT but i just don't not because they are bad I genuinely think they are great I liked them just not as much I expected and I thought about why I didn't like them and this video just came at the perfect time I love this series keep it up ❤
I love both edgerunners and frieren, I hold them closely to my heart. Yet, I feel they work together so well in the messages that they speak. Time will pass and it will feel you haven't made a significant change to the world even if it cost you your life. A tragedy in itself for so many BUT you will have always left an impact on the people you have met throughout your life. Cherish them. Don't strive for an empty dream when you can be with the ones you love.
One of the best things frieren does to stand out from other shows in a positive way, is that the protagonist is overpowered without that being the whole point of the story, and the story have dark,sad and tragic moments that also aren't the whole point of the story
It been a hard day for me on youtube today. First Zoe Bee about Media Literacy. Then LegalKimchi on Video Essays Jared Bauer on Inside Out and our inner life and now pey on hopeful media I will probably end the day rewatching a frieren episode. But right now I am thinking of Clint Smith. [When people say, “we have made it through worse before” all I hear is the wind slapping against the gravestones of those who did not make it]. I don't feel hopeful. I like all quiet on the western front much more than edge runners. all quiet on the western front shows a world that is much closer to the one I see. Where peach is made on a train with good food and is affected at a convenient time while people a dying in the mud. Movies are mad by "winners" they make movies about movies, about drama and prestige, about people that a destined to glory. Not so many movies about the people dying in the mud. Most happy people find happiness where they are, not because they furfilled there destiny or are winners. It did not have to be magic. 🙏
This entire video essay was so true to my own experience, it actually feels like something I would have written haha I had a pretty similar experience with edgrunners. I really wanted to like it too because I love the game. Now they I think about it though, the reason I like the game is you've got this very bleak and tragic world full of suffering but that same world also creates a very interesting environment to explore certain types of characters. My favorites are characters that are just trying to do their best in a this tragic dystopian city. Any time someone does something kind or genuine it feels like its highlighted by the fact those acts of kindness are so rare and the impact has on the world around them. Also although johnny is a VERY pessimistic character he's super interesting. I'd love to see a deep dive into his character at some point 👍
Idk why but I seem to be drawn to the exact opposite type of story; those of despair and tragedy. Stories like AoT, Psycho Pass, and Berserk are some of my favorites. There’s a sort of catharsis from the relatability of the sour grapes reality that these stories present I think. There’s not always something to be happy about that allows me to relate to happy stories, but there’s always a feeling of solidarity with the characters to be gained from sad stories; sort of a “hey look, they’ve got it worse than I do so what am I feeling sorry for?” Edit: I also just love stories that make me cry or feel bad, idk why
Your analysis of Frieren is very interesting. I learned a lot following it through. However I cannot get one thing out of my head - if you need to deconstruct a story to such a basic building blocks in an attempt do demonstrate its superiorness, it is not a good story. Let me present Haibane Renmei as a counter example. Totally unplanned, springing up from depths of subconciousness, from a guy who was graphic designer at that time and not a story teller. Yet it's one of the most amazing experiences in the media of moving pictures (be it anime or movies). It's more than just a story, it's a life changing experience. Give it a try, I'm sure you'll like it.
A few days ago me and my friend were in a discord call just talking and he put on 'Grave of the Fireflies', because I had never actually watched, but the WHOLE time I felt a constant sense of hopelessness because I knew what the movie was about, and I just could not get into it, idk how he does it but I've felt less and less like watching something about despair and the human nature and the horrors we inflicted upon ourselves, maybe because I don't want to see it but definitely because I already know it all, and I need the truly fantastical to be the least amount possible about real world issues, which is why I've always avoided Edgerunners, why I'm so scared of what's to come in Frieren's manga(don't worry Anime only people, the second season is probably not gonna get to it yet) why I'm putting off so many other mangas that even remotely resemble things like Houseki no Kuni or Blame!, I really just need that fantasy that makes me forget the world I live in, truly stuck in denial I suppose
Good video! I would say if you haven’t seen it already, you should give Gurren Lagann a try. It is one of my favorite stories that through out has a hopeful message. It can be goofy at times, but some how lands some of the most killer lines I’ve ever heard that stick with me today.
Have you watched Vinland Saga? Watching it, I found myself getting emotional for Thorfinn. As a father seeing how far he strays from his father's plan to keep him from experiencing war and senseless violence kept resonating in me. Do I want my children to follow the same paths in life I did? Regardless of how honorable they seemed at that time?
Wow I’m early! Just wanted to say that I love your exploring frieren videos, they’re actually part of why I ended up watching it and I’m so glad I did. It’s come to be my favourite anime so thanks for bring it to my attention through your content :)
It's pretty interesting to note from the three main character it's just Fern that we didn't get to see the full story of how tragic her early life was, the only we know was just her first meeting with Heiter
In other stories, Himmel the Hero would've died gloriously in his prime doing some incredibly heroic act. Here, he lived to a ripe old age and was living his best life up to the very end. The only regrets in his passing are that he's gone and that he never got with Frieren. And he died happy, knowing his time was almost up. While it hurts and is sad, it's not tragic. It's healthy grieving.
I like your thesis a lot, because it connected the dots for me on why I disliked Amazon's the Boys but really like Dorohedoro. They're both really violent with dark humor and mean spirited characters, but Dorohedoro came off as a lot more charming and, as you stated, hopeful, despite both settings being inhabited by nigh unstoppable monsters.
Your explanation of the distinction between a piece of media's tone ant its soul describes pretty nicely how I feel about RWBY; it's a hopeful tragedy with an optimistic tone.
Are you sure you’re not just another version of me? Lol I’ve actually had similar thoughts about the music I listen to. I’ve said that I’ve started listening to more “happy” music, but that word never sounded right, especially since I still listen to “sad” music. I also haven’t been able to finish Edgerunners, I couldn’t handle watching the vulgar and reckless violence, with people constantly dying. But I don’t think it was the death that I didn’t like, because I played Red Dead Redemption 2 recently, a game about a gang falling apart and dying, a game that kept killing my favorite characters, and man I got emotional. RDR2 is a tragedy in the classical sense, but it’s not dreadful. There’s hope, there’s love, there’s change. Hopeful. It’s such a simple word, why didn’t I think of it?
I’ve recently discovered this abt myself as well. The thing I’ll tell people is this- I will dislike watching a show if even the protagonist(s) give up on their story. Because if even them, the reason why this story is occurring, is in such a hopeless position, I too will become hopeless and give up along with them (on watching the show itself)… I am a very emotional person who reacts pretty extremely to the attitudes of the protagonists of the shows I watch. I can watch just about anything on one condition: the main characters & ending have a sense of hope to them.
I like Black Clover Particularly the manga stuff When the characters we know are being hurt I feel despair but the main character arrives and I'm filled with hope
Personally the term i like to stick with and watch is bittersweet. My favorite feeling. A feeling that makes me question my feelings. Hopeful is great too tho.
There's an interesting dichotomy between David and Frieren. David could only find motivation through others dream and that doomed him. Yet, Frieren found purpose through the connections with others and breathed life into her.
It might be worth comparing or contrasting Frieren with ACCA 13, another Madhouse anime. In that show there's no tragedy, everyone is doing just fine and any conflict doesn't result in pain or suffering. As we learn more about the world and the past of the main character there's an unnerving sense that a potentially tragic conflict is coming up. In the end it resolves in a satisfying yet very atypical way for a fictional story.
I play a lot of games and playing "multiple choice impacting the story" type of games show how much people dont really want pure madge and sadge even if it has no real life consequences. I like quantic dreams for this, especially Detroit become human. But of course most recent example is BG3. A lot of people on their first playthrough choose to be good, or choose the morally right options, the one that will give us that "feel good" moment at the end. You CAN choose to be evil and power hungry, but most of the stories then will tend to leave you with a feeling of unease. People do like a little sad, like I play also FFXIV and I can tell you, in SHB to EW, you have a lot of heavy moments that make you go "depresso" , but at the end it give you the hope that is needed. There are 2 very iconic "walk" scenes ( one is a cutscene one is an actual walk you do) in the game. Each are before a boss fight. They both are difficult to go through without crying if you did the story without skips but both give the player a boost instead of just leaving you in sadland. Because its not the end, because you are about to do a fight, because you are about to break this sad feeling yourself.
I think tragic stories do have an important place in media and often represent warnings of possible futures is certain paths are taken. But I think positive/hopeful stories are just as important if not more so because they show possible paths humanity can work towards. It's one of the reasons I think think there should be more media depicting things like solar punk futures rather than just cyberpunuk, which to me is this worst case scenario future.
Maybe it's just the discussion about tragedies, but I was reminded of Houseki no Kuni (Last of the Lustrous) as a story that is almost feels like it gets to what you like about Frieren but from opposite axes. It's a tragic story that doesn't (by the end at least) feel hopeless or despairing. Certainly there are very low points, but since a central theme of the story is about change, well, things change to move on from despair. If anime is your preference, unfortunately it only covers a small portion of the total story, but the manga recently finished and is a top recommendation.
I like this introspective question "why consume media?" I was thinking and im back to this video again... For frieren i got interest in because of the te concept "time moves on", i notice that stories that have this, generally stick more to me not sure yet why Also this "time moves on" is one of the few thing both a pessimistic and positive people can agree even though having different views on the meaning (I'm a pessimist btw, the environment i was raised in was full of positive people, but the experiences i had crushed this views making me this way)
i wouldnt say the opposite of hope is tragedy and rather it being despair. great video, keep it up.
yeah! Totally agree. In my mind tragedy is closer to sad, true tragedy gets into the range of despair.
@@PeyTalksAnime If I recall correctly, classical tragedy was when "hero" of the story had a fate that regardless of what they do they will end up badly. Tragedy comes from there being no hope to change things. Plus usually it was "protag-kun's" own actions that made the outcome inevitable - for this additional knife-twisting.
Agree. When a story turns unhappy, and all hope disappears, then all that is left to you is despair. Stark's brother Stoltz is in his last fight that he knows is the end, but he refuses this despair. He tells little Stark to leave the battlefield which is his final cling to hope, "At least one member of my family will survive". It is difficult in the extreme to spit in the eye of despair when it's in your face!
I always viewed tragedy as a sort of "fall from grace". Someone told me that is a Shakespearean version, but I can't really see it in any other way.
@@folcwinep.pywackett8517 im german and i dont exactly remember the name of starks brother, but 'stolz' is written without the 't' in it in german. it means proud/pride btw.
I commend Stories like Frieren that are bittersweet but aren’t overly tragic. It’s that Hopeful message that keeps me engaged in the story
Im an ecologist and i see around me how the absence of hope leads to apathy and standstill. When people lose hope, they lose the idea that what they do matters. Frieren shows that we might die, we might suffer and have a very sad life, but what we chose and do has impact, what we choose and do has consequences for others. When we strive for better, we might not see it, but others will. And it can tell this story exactly because it is sad.
In the words of the great uncle Iroh "In our darkest times hope is something we give ourselves. That is the meaning of inner strength!"
The opposite of hope is despair. I remember one line in Violet Evergarden, an accomplished literary author has lost his only daugher so goes the episode and he says at one point:" my audience deserves to be happy". Since loss and pain is an unavoidable part of life, hope is the only way the author can truly make his audience happy
You have put in such a eloquent way exactly my feelings on media. That one line "I'll hold on with white knuckles to hope" really resonated with me
I do like sad stories from time to time. But when it comes to stories that evoke dread and depression, I can only watch them very rarely.
The part in Frieren that has it a bit (assuming you can relate to that part in some way) is "Old Man Voll" or "Grandfather Voll" - depending on translation. Yes, there is hope there as well and the fact that this chapter is relatively short helps. It doesn't overwhelm you. But as a person with brain damage and problem with memories that spends his entire life taking care of 2 disabled people - it hits very hard. And I know that even for people who don't have that personal experiences it is a sad chapter. But Frieren doesn't dwell on it. It doesn't try to make you feel despair. It shows you something tragic and moves on. Really beautiful chapter in really beautiful series.
Some evoke feelings, while others can drain you.
Your Lie in April is one of my favorite shows but I don't think I could watch it again.
Pey, this more than anything is why I love Frieren. Thank you for addressing the topic! You are not alone in getting very invested in stories, feeling the full weight of the characters' hope/despair. I gave Frieren a shot precisely because I've been examining what draws me to the media that I like, what role it fills for me. I need reminders of hope, or at least fictional pocket universes for my imagination to escape to when the world feels hopeless. I'm struggling to find many stories with both quality and hope, in any form of media.
I dont comment much, but i want to say that im also a sensitive consumer of media, so when you talk about media in your videos, it really hits deep. I personally love this series and i hope to see more.
thanks for the comment!
i agree with you so much! this is the reason I love Freiren so much, it feels real, and not everything is happy but it has hope and that just warms my heart and makes me feel hopeful too
Freiren is this sort of hopeful and tragic, beautiful and melancholy story because of the brilliance of its setup.
It opens with the end of Himmel's journey. He's achieved an epic goal and as far as we know lived a life he was satisfied with and which was respected by all. Yet Freiren did not live it with him, because she did not recognize the deep impression their journeys made in her soul and what Himmel's mortality would cost her. That ignorance is the foundational challenge and tragedy of Freiren.
And it is brilliant, because every further beautiful and happy recollection is intensified by it and intensifies it. The moments matter more because they remain. The tragedy hits harder because we grow to love Himmel and her party through fond memories. And because Himmel lived a good life, and a full life, and a long life... We do not really hope he can be returned to it.
Yet also the story is fundamentally hopeful, because of Stark and Fern and the world itself. The world is still good and full of beauty and vibrant people. The young still have their whole lives ahead of them, and the young and old can both do better this go around.
It's gloriously structured to reinforce the best parts the longer it goes on.
100% The world as a whole is better and safer than its ever been. We just have the capacity to pinpoint negative events down to the exact time and location in real time. Something we couldnt even do 30 years ago.
We are just more hyper aware of the differences that separate people, be it money, fame, or even family.
Excellent comment which carries much truth! When I was very young, my father took me on a long visit to his hometown where he grew up, and introduced me to one of his friends,, a man born a slave in 1864. That old world of tragedy brought on by other human beings is not that far away. The world in general is a better and safer place today than it has ever been in human history even acknowledging the horrible things that are happening now!
Just to play devil's advocate, sure we're safer than ever, but we're also closer to complete annihilation than ever. In old wars, even if it was a massacre, there would always be a winner. But in modern times, pick your poison; atomic war, bio-weapons, climate change, or any of the other possible things that can wipe out all of humanity if not all life on Earth, which would leave no winners at all.
Thank you for putting into words the same reason why I don't care to watch some great stories again.
I'm really glad for you explaining why tragedies exist, their appeal, and advantages. So many people, on both ends of the spectrum, I hear say how there's too much of "this" or "that" type of story, and try to justify their own distastes by pointing out "inherent" flaws in the structure and/or genres. Of course, the reality is that there are enough of almost every type of story, new and old, to satiate us for a lifetime. Unlike you, who even recognizes some stories are great BECAUSE they're tragedies despite not enjoying the storytelling format, so many so-called critics don't know how to separate their own preferences from actual in-depth and critical evaluations. I understand evaluations are in big part subjective in nature, but one also has to recognize that a story trying to achieve something you don't like isn't a bad thing.
I definitely feel the same, I most often prefer very dark or sad media, it can be such a raw and cathartic way to experience those emotions, but I find that the best tragedies do have that sense of hope buried deep within them; it's hard to get invested when you know nothing will ever work out and there's no path to something better.
Made in Abyss, Berserk, Bojack Horseman, any Yoko Taro game, Chainsaw Man, there are a ton of great tragedies but there's always a flickering light inside them, driving you forward.
Frieren hit so close to home because I had lost my grandmother a couple months prior, and it helped me reflect on those somber feelings of regret and longing, and remembering the great moments just as Frieren does Himmel.
My dad and I also spend a lot of time consuming media together. I’ve been telling him about some of my favorite shows recently and he constantly asks why I would watch such sad stories. You hit the nail on the head for me. I love hopeful stories, ones that acknowledge sorrow and trials but point me towards something more. I can’t wait to yap to him about this video later. Thank you for your amazing videos and thoughts! I always look forward to them! 😊
I appreciate you work. There was this slight variation to the inflection on the delivery of “you” at the very end, and I found myself bracing. So often have I been conditioned by media that intensively genuine moments of positivity like that get undercut by bathos or lampshading that my unconscious looking for any clue as to when the script would flip. And this is what I find myself so valuing about your work; it is unflinchingly sincere. It’s grounded in a real care and a real insight and a real diligent craftsmanship. Thank you for making art.
I watched a video essay that hit on similar notes to this one a few months ago and it really helped clarify what it was about a lot of recent fantasy that didn’t hit for me, so when I saw you also talking about it, it’s helped me realize how much people need hopeful stories and hopeful fantasy to return
As someone whose body has been destroyed by severe covid early in 2020, thanks for this video. But it's really hard to be optimistic when you're just 30 and you have a dead left lung and a swollen heart. I try, but it's just not the same as before
Babe wake up, new Pey Explores Frieren vid just dropped
This video got me thinking. I think a share the same feeling as you, I just didn't know what it was.
Sometimes it's really hard to put into words why we like certain shows/movies and why we dislike others.
Thank you for the great video! 💛💛
Man, this did make me tear up. You're right. The secret ingredient is Hope.
I agree with you a lot, and it is something that I'm trying to convey in my own writing. The world might be filled with loss and suffering, but we can get better, and hope is the last thing we should lose.
I completely relate to this!!!! This helped me understand how to put my likes and dislikes into words. I've always loved sad stories but hated sad people
I greatly appreciate optimism in stories too. However, it is easy for the writers themselves to not even know how important it is; if a character gives up, sometimes that is enough to end the story and that is not what writers want, unless they have finished telling the story they want to tell and the end of the story is the end of the character. I think the truest of tragedies is when a writer has the makings of a great story but fails in its execution because they didn't understand what about it was most important, and sometimes I feel like often that is optimism.
I heavily agree with this, and I've been able to identify it for a long time, but I really appreciate your breakdown of the source of this want for hope and optimism. Love the videos!
Ah, so you too got that dead inside feeling after finishing cyberpunk edge runners. I'm never watching it again. There are no happy endings in night city.
I love Edgerunners- but what sucks so much is how it feels like there is hope in that show until those last few episodes throw you for a total loop. It teases you with a bit of hope and then slams you with overwhelming despair. I don’t regret watching that show due to the catharsis it gave me (sometimes you just need a good cry from a show…), however I definitely don’t think I could watch it again.
Hi Pey, I just wanted to congratulate you. I started watching your exploring Frieren series from the 3rd video and i haven't stopped watching them since. recently i looked at your channel for the first time in a while and the difference in views has gone up like crazy. keep up the good work man. i will continue watching all your vids every time you release them.
I had a similar conversation with my mom a while ago. I said I only consume "happy" stories, but what I meant i that I allways needed to be some hope to hang on to, otherwise I tend to just tune out and stop engaging a self defense mechanis. But lately my life has gotten a lot better, so I probably could take a lot more tragedy, since I can allways come back to my current life, and before I never wanted to.
I've watched every single one of these and I haven't commented on any of them. But I think this is one of your best videos yet in the Frieren series. Your description of being emotionally invested in shows and clinging on to a hope was so well illustrated because I do the same but never was able to put it into words. Awesome stuff bro
This almost perfectly describes my taste in media and why I love Frieren so much (it’s my favorite anime).
I never really had the words for it before, so I just would say I liked “happy” media even though I knew that wasn’t quite right. The more things I found that didn’t fit that idea, the less I could put my finger on what I liked about them.
NieR Automata is a good example of this; I adore that game and its story, but it’s hardly happy.
This video put what I like about games like automata and shows like frieren into words in a way I wa never able to before. Loving the series!!!
I love Joel Haver's vids and style! The deadpan humor with Trent Lenkarsky is so fantastic, and his retro animation videos from years back are still great. Nice to see another link. Keep up the great work, Pey.
In my mind, the key to making any tragic story work is its ability to evoke catharsis. You have to be able to have moments of emotional release in a tragedy that feel earned and appropriate.
I think the reason why something like Cyberpunk: Edgerunners, which is a technically proficient show, is consistent with its genre, and is thematically poignant most of the time doesn't always click with people is that some feel the story doesn't have an appropriate level of catharsis to balance out all the bad hands the characters are dealt. The emotional release one gets from watching the show is measurably small in comparison to the amount of suffering and loss experienced by the main characters to the point where to some, it doesn't matter if the characters accept their lots in life and make peace with the tragedy of it all, the person watching it all unfold can't make peace with how rigged life seems against the characters.
Perfectly sums up my feelings on edgerunners. Well said
Pey, i really like your videos. I think I'm also a sensitive consumer of media, and due to tragic past events i hold on to a string of hope. As a writer, i really love watching your videos as it mirrors my own feelings about media and brings me new ideas on how to stop, take a breath, and make my fantasy worlds just a little bit kinder.
I love how you're still doing Frieren videos. :D Glad you loved the series so much.
Reminds me of this quote I've heard long time ago about how being alone is not the same as lonely
Edgerunners makes me feel terrible, but that's what makes it good. It isn't trying to impart lessons the audience should aspire towards. It is a classic Cautionary Tale, a warning for us and future generations. We're meant to hate what happens, because this is a fate best avoided. If Frieren was a story of the adventurer's party, and ended with Frieren filled with regret, having lost the chance to connect with people who cared for her, Frieren would have also been a Cautionary Tale.
While I'm glad Frieren isn't a Cautionary Tale, Edgerunners is all the better for being one.
for me, personally, tragedy is the best genre, because I seek emotions from the story and the harderst emotion to evoke in daily life is the exaggerated amout of sympathy that you can only release with tears. However, I get your point of unreasonable suffering being too much. There are several shows with to much pain and shows with hopeless endings. Seeing them is painful, but pain is what helps us feel alive.
I respect that. For me personally, I see so much tragedy IRL that I need some escapism to stories with hopeful themes.
@@Grimblade2401 I'm stuck with reality and lost any belief in happy outcome and just. I'm really glad that hopeful stories help you escape the dark.
@@wanyagog6540 That sounds kinda dark sir/madame. I hope that life treats you at least a little better.
this really made me reanalyze why my favorite anime, assassination classroom, is my favorite anime. the story is rooted in a tragedy either koro sensei or the world are doomed. you know from the first episode that one of those will die by the end of the anime. but it doesn't matter because of the hope and joy and happiness shared throughout the story. even when the class is going through some horrible event they're doing it together and that's how they get through it, including having to assassinate their teacher even if he's the only person that believes in them. it has so much hope and yet so much tragedy and i love it so much
I cry a lot, like you, and my wife almost never cries. But she gets it which is sweet.
Dude, now i can finally put this into words. Thank you so much : )
I see the best tragic stories as being built upon an incredibly important absence, and I find the pursuit far more meaningful than any sense of satisfaction or empowerment. Most of my favorite stories that aren't tragedies only differentiate themselves in the sense that they are able to give voice to that absence, normally right at the end.
another banger vid!
your videos have very much taught me about story writing, character writing, etc.
keep it up my guy!🤜
Dude your channel is amazing I love all your videos. Keep up the work!
Ive watched your videos for months and i love your videos and and happy to see you gain a larger following. I just checked out you music and it’s amazing keep up the great work
It's very interesting to hear your perspective on this. Especially because I love tragedies in all of their forms and a lot of the shows, movies or other art that I find truly beautiful are very tragic and feeling "devastated", to some extent, is a large part of what makes them resonate with me. Sometimes the feeling of having your hopes and dreams crushed is exactly what I want from art.
I am the same way when it comes to consuming media. I find I am a deeply emotional person, even during conversations if I know I put a lot of thought into what to say because the conversation is extremely important I begin to tear up.
Oddly, I find myself to be similar! I do enjoy both hopeful and tragic media, and tragic media does hit hard and resonate with me when I see it… but I don’t try to seek it out. I’m surrounded in depressing stuff and I want to find hope and good things to look forward to.
This is probably my favorite video of the series
I relate soo much to what you said
I loved frieren , ascendance of a bookworm they are very chill and hopeful
But there are shows that i think i will love like monster and AOT but i just don't not because they are bad I genuinely think they are great I liked them just not as much I expected
and I thought about why I didn't like them and this video just came at the perfect time
I love this series keep it up ❤
you just encapsulated my entire taste in consuming media in this video ty goddamn. gave me an insight into myself lol
I love both edgerunners and frieren, I hold them closely to my heart. Yet, I feel they work together so well in the messages that they speak. Time will pass and it will feel you haven't made a significant change to the world even if it cost you your life. A tragedy in itself for so many BUT you will have always left an impact on the people you have met throughout your life. Cherish them. Don't strive for an empty dream when you can be with the ones you love.
Early to a Pey? Blessed
🙏 🏄
One of the best things frieren does to stand out from other shows in a positive way, is that the protagonist is overpowered without that being the whole point of the story, and the story have dark,sad and tragic moments that also aren't the whole point of the story
When you watch the whole playlist in one night and get spoiled with one more before bed ❤
It been a hard day for me on youtube today.
First Zoe Bee about Media Literacy.
Then LegalKimchi on Video Essays
Jared Bauer on Inside Out and our inner life
and now pey on hopeful media
I will probably end the day rewatching a frieren episode.
But right now I am thinking of Clint Smith. [When people say, “we have made it through worse before” all I hear is the wind slapping against the gravestones of those who did not make it].
I don't feel hopeful. I like all quiet on the western front much more than edge runners. all quiet on the western front shows a world that is much closer to the one I see. Where peach is made on a train with good food and is affected at a convenient time while people a dying in the mud.
Movies are mad by "winners" they make movies about movies, about drama and prestige, about people that a destined to glory. Not so many movies about the people dying in the mud.
Most happy people find happiness where they are, not because they furfilled there destiny or are winners. It did not have to be magic. 🙏
This entire video essay was so true to my own experience, it actually feels like something I would have written haha
I had a pretty similar experience with edgrunners. I really wanted to like it too because I love the game. Now they I think about it though, the reason I like the game is you've got this very bleak and tragic world full of suffering but that same world also creates a very interesting environment to explore certain types of characters. My favorites are characters that are just trying to do their best in a this tragic dystopian city. Any time someone does something kind or genuine it feels like its highlighted by the fact those acts of kindness are so rare and the impact has on the world around them.
Also although johnny is a VERY pessimistic character he's super interesting. I'd love to see a deep dive into his character at some point 👍
Idk why but I seem to be drawn to the exact opposite type of story; those of despair and tragedy. Stories like AoT, Psycho Pass, and Berserk are some of my favorites. There’s a sort of catharsis from the relatability of the sour grapes reality that these stories present I think. There’s not always something to be happy about that allows me to relate to happy stories, but there’s always a feeling of solidarity with the characters to be gained from sad stories; sort of a “hey look, they’ve got it worse than I do so what am I feeling sorry for?”
Edit: I also just love stories that make me cry or feel bad, idk why
Your analysis of Frieren is very interesting. I learned a lot following it through. However I cannot get one thing out of my head - if you need to deconstruct a story to such a basic building blocks in an attempt do demonstrate its superiorness, it is not a good story.
Let me present Haibane Renmei as a counter example. Totally unplanned, springing up from depths of subconciousness, from a guy who was graphic designer at that time and not a story teller. Yet it's one of the most amazing experiences in the media of moving pictures (be it anime or movies). It's more than just a story, it's a life changing experience. Give it a try, I'm sure you'll like it.
May the algorithm bless you, my friend.
These videos are like therapy for me atp
Thank you! I wish I had a friend like you 🙂
The word you are looking for is despair, and the whole hope vs despair underlining theme is part of why I love The lord of the Rings books
Babe wake up Pey dropped another Frieren video
I'm a simple man. Kinda, but I genuinely want to study these things, and I love your presentation. Thank you
A few days ago me and my friend were in a discord call just talking and he put on 'Grave of the Fireflies', because I had never actually watched, but the WHOLE time I felt a constant sense of hopelessness because I knew what the movie was about, and I just could not get into it, idk how he does it but I've felt less and less like watching something about despair and the human nature and the horrors we inflicted upon ourselves, maybe because I don't want to see it but definitely because I already know it all, and I need the truly fantastical to be the least amount possible about real world issues, which is why I've always avoided Edgerunners, why I'm so scared of what's to come in Frieren's manga(don't worry Anime only people, the second season is probably not gonna get to it yet) why I'm putting off so many other mangas that even remotely resemble things like Houseki no Kuni or Blame!, I really just need that fantasy that makes me forget the world I live in, truly stuck in denial I suppose
Good video! I would say if you haven’t seen it already, you should give Gurren Lagann a try. It is one of my favorite stories that through out has a hopeful message. It can be goofy at times, but some how lands some of the most killer lines I’ve ever heard that stick with me today.
Thank you for sharing 😊
Have you watched Vinland Saga? Watching it, I found myself getting emotional for Thorfinn. As a father seeing how far he strays from his father's plan to keep him from experiencing war and senseless violence kept resonating in me. Do I want my children to follow the same paths in life I did? Regardless of how honorable they seemed at that time?
another really good video from pey as always
Wow I’m early! Just wanted to say that I love your exploring frieren videos, they’re actually part of why I ended up watching it and I’m so glad I did. It’s come to be my favourite anime so thanks for bring it to my attention through your content :)
glad you like the videos and the show! Dope
New Pey video?
*Let's Fcking GOOO!*
"What's the opposite of hope?"
Me, a Danganronpa fan, trying to not say despair:
great video, I'm loving exploring frieren
It's pretty interesting to note from the three main character it's just Fern that we didn't get to see the full story of how tragic her early life was, the only we know was just her first meeting with Heiter
I love this video! It really sums up my own reasons for liking shows I think! Hopeful, not happy (and filled with magic but that's besides the point).
Swear almost all of this guys videos make me cry
In other stories, Himmel the Hero would've died gloriously in his prime doing some incredibly heroic act. Here, he lived to a ripe old age and was living his best life up to the very end. The only regrets in his passing are that he's gone and that he never got with Frieren. And he died happy, knowing his time was almost up. While it hurts and is sad, it's not tragic. It's healthy grieving.
I like your thesis a lot, because it connected the dots for me on why I disliked Amazon's the Boys but really like Dorohedoro. They're both really violent with dark humor and mean spirited characters, but Dorohedoro came off as a lot more charming and, as you stated, hopeful, despite both settings being inhabited by nigh unstoppable monsters.
Your explanation of the distinction between a piece of media's tone ant its soul describes pretty nicely how I feel about RWBY; it's a hopeful tragedy with an optimistic tone.
Are you sure you’re not just another version of me? Lol
I’ve actually had similar thoughts about the music I listen to. I’ve said that I’ve started listening to more “happy” music, but that word never sounded right, especially since I still listen to “sad” music.
I also haven’t been able to finish Edgerunners, I couldn’t handle watching the vulgar and reckless violence, with people constantly dying. But I don’t think it was the death that I didn’t like, because I played Red Dead Redemption 2 recently, a game about a gang falling apart and dying, a game that kept killing my favorite characters, and man I got emotional. RDR2 is a tragedy in the classical sense, but it’s not dreadful. There’s hope, there’s love, there’s change.
Hopeful. It’s such a simple word, why didn’t I think of it?
I’ve recently discovered this abt myself as well. The thing I’ll tell people is this- I will dislike watching a show if even the protagonist(s) give up on their story. Because if even them, the reason why this story is occurring, is in such a hopeless position, I too will become hopeless and give up along with them (on watching the show itself)… I am a very emotional person who reacts pretty extremely to the attitudes of the protagonists of the shows I watch. I can watch just about anything on one condition: the main characters & ending have a sense of hope to them.
new vid from the freiren glaze channel 🥳
I like Black Clover
Particularly the manga stuff
When the characters we know are being hurt I feel despair but the main character arrives and I'm filled with hope
Oh nice I just subscribed and already got this video under another one
Personally the term i like to stick with and watch is bittersweet. My favorite feeling. A feeling that makes me question my feelings. Hopeful is great too tho.
Thank you.
This idea explains why I both love, and was crushed by, FFX. I beat that game in 2002 and I STILL ugly cry at the ending.
There's an interesting dichotomy between David and Frieren. David could only find motivation through others dream and that doomed him. Yet, Frieren found purpose through the connections with others and breathed life into her.
Yet another masterpiece
Despair is the opposite of hope. Tragedy is, at least in the literary/theatric sense, the opposite of comedy.
your videos make me feel
It might be worth comparing or contrasting Frieren with ACCA 13, another Madhouse anime.
In that show there's no tragedy, everyone is doing just fine and any conflict doesn't result in pain or suffering. As we learn more about the world and the past of the main character there's an unnerving sense that a potentially tragic conflict is coming up. In the end it resolves in a satisfying yet very atypical way for a fictional story.
I play a lot of games and playing "multiple choice impacting the story" type of games show how much people dont really want pure madge and sadge even if it has no real life consequences. I like quantic dreams for this, especially Detroit become human. But of course most recent example is BG3. A lot of people on their first playthrough choose to be good, or choose the morally right options, the one that will give us that "feel good" moment at the end. You CAN choose to be evil and power hungry, but most of the stories then will tend to leave you with a feeling of unease. People do like a little sad, like I play also FFXIV and I can tell you, in SHB to EW, you have a lot of heavy moments that make you go "depresso" , but at the end it give you the hope that is needed. There are 2 very iconic "walk" scenes ( one is a cutscene one is an actual walk you do) in the game. Each are before a boss fight. They both are difficult to go through without crying if you did the story without skips but both give the player a boost instead of just leaving you in sadland. Because its not the end, because you are about to do a fight, because you are about to break this sad feeling yourself.
I think tragic stories do have an important place in media and often represent warnings of possible futures is certain paths are taken. But I think positive/hopeful stories are just as important if not more so because they show possible paths humanity can work towards. It's one of the reasons I think think there should be more media depicting things like solar punk futures rather than just cyberpunuk, which to me is this worst case scenario future.
Thank you
This video has now showed in my feed 3 separate times, 3 of which had a different graphic and now a different title 😂
Maybe it's just the discussion about tragedies, but I was reminded of Houseki no Kuni (Last of the Lustrous) as a story that is almost feels like it gets to what you like about Frieren but from opposite axes. It's a tragic story that doesn't (by the end at least) feel hopeless or despairing. Certainly there are very low points, but since a central theme of the story is about change, well, things change to move on from despair. If anime is your preference, unfortunately it only covers a small portion of the total story, but the manga recently finished and is a top recommendation.
I like this introspective question "why consume media?" I was thinking and im back to this video again... For frieren i got interest in because of the te concept "time moves on", i notice that stories that have this, generally stick more to me not sure yet why
Also this "time moves on" is one of the few thing both a pessimistic and positive people can agree even though having different views on the meaning (I'm a pessimist btw, the environment i was raised in was full of positive people, but the experiences i had crushed this views making me this way)