@@JAMSIONLINE SEMA build and PRI built are 2 different things. SEMA builds just have to look good from 50+ feet away. PRI builds actually have to work so if they look good you know it’s a 10/10
My father was in Brazil as a young man from 1924 to 1936 and had a Ford garage. When he returned to Germany, he brought with him various tools for repairing Ford engines, the use of which he explained to me many years later in our new workshop here in Germany. The split valve guides were necessary because of the mushroomed valve stem. This large lower diameter of the valve stem was necessary to dampen valve noise and protect the camshaft along with an oil cushion between the camshaft and valve stem. The valves could not be adjusted by means of set screws but were "adjusted" tighter by grinding on the seat or larger by grinding on the stem The valve spacing was kept quite large from the factory or after a repair since an adjustment could only be accomplished with great effort. For mounting the valve guides there was a special tool with which one could tap the guides in to place. This comment comes from Germany and please excuse my, most likely awkward english.
Good job, your English is pretty much spot on. I’m in machining and engine building, but in college minored in English cause I like to read and writing papers came easy to me. I don’t really see any errors besides what may arguably be called a “run-on” sentence…where you cram too many ideas together and your subjects/verb/direct objects/prepositional phrases start getting all linked together and turn into compound sentences and just become “muddy” and hard for the reader to understand coherently while scanning thru text visually. The key to reading clarity being understanding something the first time, not having to reread something. Like that big ass long sentence I just typed, lol. The way I see it, when we type messages out it’s more of a written representation of verbal communication which not everyone does in the same way as they would, or are capable of if indeed they intended to write something out properly in their native language.
This split valve guide actually allows the valve to "float" a little to enable it to seal on the valve seat. I actually have one of those tools somewhere and my Uncles rebuilt many of those old engines back in the day. This float allowed the seats to be slightly misaligned and for the tooling of the day it definitely sped up building of the engine valve train
Idk for certain, but i'd bet another reason was to save time drilling out the hole for the pushrod. If the halves are cast separately, then they can already have most of the hollow cast in there. The drill then doesn't have to hog out everything, only clean it up. Or you could use a horizontal mill to gang-mill multiple valve guide halves at a time; if it was one piece then you are forced to drill the hole one at a time.
Heehee ,this is also probably part of why our Grandpa used to tell us a valve job would last 30k. I mean it works, but it shows how far we've come. That is ,until the last 10yrs when "they" have gotten stupid and longevity of parts is going backwards. 😄
as time goes on technology gets better sloppy valves and seat are ok in a lov reving engine but the youngster works to a higher spec that modern engines work to because or the higher reves iv straightened valves and groubd them in with engine oil and sand used green hermitite on the head gasket on a Honda gold wing 1100 1980 model you tent to know what you can and cant get away with i run like that for years but when your doing it for a living and telling the world you have to be spot on because theres alway someone winging who dont want to pay and feels that every one in life owes him ...
The first shop I worked at had wood plank floors and opened in 1917. There were several old machines in the back area of the machine shop. The equipment was there for babit bearing pours, piston knurling, ring groove cutters, and I specifically remember a pair of spring pliers that didn't have the ratchet mechanism. The foreman used to use them to see how long he and the rest of us could hold springs in tension. The manuals were one of the more interesting items that were there, plenty of times people doing restorations on stuff from the 20s and 30s would come by just to take pictures of or scan specific portions of the manuals. There was a seat at a small counter that we used to call "the library", there was no way we were going to allow a manual or document to leave the shop. If you wanted to do some research and were a known customer, by all means have at it. That shop is still there and still putting out good work to this day as far as I know. One last thing, flat head engines were still common up until the 80s in industrial equipment. Continental, Massey, etc
I love the old manuals. When I was in the Navy still I spent shore duty in an instrument repair shop. We had a wheel and flap indicator that is still used today that had a manual with the latest revision in 1942. It was probably the best, most descriptive manual I've ever seen in my life. It was clearly made for farm boys who went to war and had no training on repairing delicate instruments, down to pictures of little elves holding north and south poles of a magnet to show how it worked.
Would love to see a contemporary manual. Did they call for..0075" 3x .0025" in shims like factory or the stupid laminated shim packs. Did they scrape, or line bore to a spec based on the crank dia, and spin the crank with a motor and special shims, to burnish the bearings to the crank journals
Hi Jim! I think Milt’s sold in the early 60s, Gould had it as a NAPA store in 1970. I just sold all my grandfathers model A tools last summer he had all the tools to rebabit those engines.
I am 69 years old and have seen lots of different engine design features in that time. This is the first early ford engine I have seen, and your description of these differences and how you will overcome them is what makes the JAMSI channel a true stand out. I cannot wait for the next work on this engine. Enjot SEMA, careful not to spend too much.....
My dad owned an engine shop in Tampa Florida. Even in the 70's there were few that did the Babbitt bearings. I worked for him as a teen and we did a few. He would do the bearings then had a long grinder that he mounted just like a crankshaft so all the bearings were straight, true and the same dimensions.it was amazing the crud that the old oil from decades before could build up.
Ford ran split guides from in the T, A and B fours, the V-8 and V-12s. The tulip on the valve stem saved money and having a machinist and the equipment to do the keeper grooves. No costly valve spring retainer cap either. Ford was frugal but it also helped him to keep the sale price low and still make a profit. Model A transmission crates were cut to be a direct drop in for floor boards after they were unpacked, other wood scraps were made into KingsFORD Charcoal at the Rouge plant
I did auto restoration for several shops, including 1 shop where I was the Model A chassis and driveline specialist. I think there used to be a company if my mind serves me right that used to make insert bearings for the mains and probably for the rods too. We didn't do too many engines in house, but sometimes we would have problems with a vender built piece, so I would be called on to make it right. We had a lot of problems with valve sealing for the same reasons you found. Since I was also the shop machinist I made a pilot that located off of the valve guide bore and locked tightly from the bottom with a bolt. The cutter spun on the pilot. This setup was sturdy enough to hand cut pockets for seat inserts. As for the flared ends on the valves, machining grooves or drilling holes to fit a retainer took at best several seconds. Henry Ford found that if you induction heated the end of the valve and forged the end in a punch press it took less than 2 seconds. The retainers were also hot forged by punch press..
I used to work at a small engine repair shop in SC (Battery Electric Co) in the late 2000s that also did some carburator and machining work. The machinist (Lewis) was in his late 70s and he poured babbitt bearings, ground crankshafts, and stitched cracks in cast iron blocks (in addition to the more standard stuff). We had a pretty steady stream of model-A & model-T blocks and cranks in the shop from all up and down the east coast. Pretty cool.
a bit of a heads up from what I can see there's still a lot of life in the babbitt in that block and the rods. If there where still more then 2 or 3 shims in the mains and connecting rods they still are in usable range. the way to adjust a babbitt crank is to remove shims as needed to tighten the crank and rods to fit for proper running so if they still had a stack of shims it's still fine
Looking forward to seeing you guys work more on this engine. I'm currently in the process of semi-restoring a 31 Model A for my neighbor. Had a local blowhard trying to convince my neighbor that he just needs to slap a new set of bearings in and she'll be good to go. I spent the next 30 minutes trying to explain what babbitt bearings were and that you don't just order them from a catlog
There are a lot of theories, but I'm of the belief that the valves were made like that to cut down on complex machining procedures. With a modern type valve arrangement, the valves have to be pretty darn close to spec for the retainers to slide in at all, whereas with the bell ended valves, it could be pretty well wrong, and still work as intended. Likely made the assembly process more efficient too (looser tolerances = less parts rejected for quality issues/ less waste) I have seen the wrong vales, way out of spec "small" ends, bent valves, and even one engine come in with eight different length valve springs- all with the customers saying that they "ran good, just using a bit more oil". It never ceased to amaze me the condition that the valvetrain, pistons, etc could be in, and the old flathead still runs about as good as it ever did. The biggest issue we ever had was tearing then down and finding cracks everywhere (of course the model a engines were over 70yrs old when I was working on them, so I'm sure that had something to do with the conditions I saw)
yup.... any engine that you can think of that is known for reliability is kinda the same...... AKA.... under-stressed . because everything is just a big "bigger" than needed...... their is a lot of "room" for imperfections and wear . . while a modern 1000CC 3 cylinder that makes 600HP AKA HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY stressed...... if one cylinder is down 3% on compression.... it just refuses to run at all . . . ill take my 190HP jeep 4.0 that will THRIVE on abuse and neglect over a more fuel efficient engine that makes 400HP . (PS...a HeeP "grand native american" is still a brick.... so i might go from 20 MPG with the 4.0..... to 25 with a modern engine thats lasts 1/4 as much......... not worth it to me)
I'll continue to watch and learn about this engine. I have a 1929 model A coupe I've been restoring for the last 15 years. Maybe I'll have it done by it's 100th anniversary.. 😁
It's good to see someone taking so much pride in their work. Doing it as it should be not just doing it as everyone else has because "that's how we've always done it". Keep up the good work!
If he doesn’t redo the Babbitt bearings he might as well reassemble it as is and send it back; it’s like taking a shower then putting on drawers with raving stripes…
I really appreciate the fact that y’all are willing to work on everything that comes through the door. I have a much newer classic than this one (65 T-bird) and I’ve been flat out turned down by 2 transmission shops and supposedly the best upholstery shop in town. They have plenty of work and they don’t want to fool with my old car!
Well done and very interesting. I've owned my 1931 Model A for 55 years; had the engine rebuilt at a machine shop in Escalon California in 1979 and installed it in 1992 - have 23000 miles on it and it runs like new - stock as a rock. Can't wait to see what else you do to that old block. Killer machine shop tag on the side!
I wish all machinist , mechanics took as much pride in their work as you do ! That "it's good enough" attitude is why Everything is crap and falls apart so fast! Your intellectual curiosity about the engine is refreshing I wish more young people had it! Keep up the good work 👍 Ps.that second patent date 7-10-23 was the day my Dad was born.
I have to say that I've been binging your videos and although I'm a software engineer I want to work in a machine shop to do this kind of quality work. nice job! if I lived anywhere near you I would not take my engine anywhere else.
Babbitt is interesting stuff, it's not as common today in car or truck engines. Though there are still some Machined that use it for high load bearings or the need for precision tolerance. That aside, for a lot of babbitt bearings, if they're not loose or have chunks missing, deep gouging, embedded contamination (shards of metal, dirt, corrosion, etc) it's often best to leave it alone. But if you are resizing, the heat it with a torch to melt it off/out. Fit your cores and measure for oil holes. Fit your mould walls, soot up anything you don't want it to stick to, pour the bearing. Check the work after the first pour cools. Check it, place to paper or gasket material shims to give room for the crank dimensions, ad the second pour mould then your core, pour again. Check for adhesion, bore to size, drill oil holes if needed, carve channels for the oil, chamfer the edges smooth, deburr remaining edges. Make a sacrifice to the pagan gods. Hope you don't have to do it again because it's not correct.
From what I've heard from folks ,there can't be more than a few handful of folks still doing babbit bearings. Unless some kids have picked it up since,idk. Back 20 yrs ago my dad's buddy had a heck of a time finding someone to redo his model A bearings.
@@MrTheHillfolk I only know about it from helping a machinist that probably had to tell Jesus how to properly drive a nail. But even that was some fifteen years ago now and he's long gone.i did leave out that whatever the bearing is being poured into has to be hot enough to not be able to hold your hand on for more than a second or two. Else it'll flash 'freeze' before it properly fills the bearing area. But, that said. Keep the oil or grease in it and a babbitt bearings should be good for decades of use.
@@MrTheHillfolk Keith Rucker pours Babbitt bearings on his channel. He just finished pouring and fittings half Babbitt bearings on a large cane grinding mill that he restored.
Really cool to see how different the designs were in the old days to accommodate their tooling, capability, and assembly and such. Have fun at sema! Some of the other guys on youtube put an indycar engine in a pickup truck to show off there. Would love to see that myself.
It’s an old 4 cyl Briggs and Stratton. I’ve set up a few ford flatheads. The adjustable lifters make it easier. The old style are a pain if your not set up to grind to fit. Replace the worn guides. It’s worth it.
Thank you JAMSI for sharing this great automotive technology of Henry Ford. Greetings from Borneo Island! Your "cleaning guy" need more screen time to share his automotive story back in the day😁😁😁
I had one of those valve spring compressing tools that we found in our barn/garage when we moved into our house in 1973, I kind of knew what it was for but never what application.
Never worked on a Mode A engine but worked on a my granddad’s Ford 8n quite a bit which has a lot of the same peculiar things going on. I see there are 1 piece valve guide kits out there. Another consideration just popped in mind. You aren’t worried so much I would thing about how much play is in the guide, but how close can you match the existing lifter/tappet. On every other type of engine you have pushrods or followers that allow some take up of tolerance whereas here the tappet is right on the valve. I would think a template lifter sized for your machine plus the appropriate guides would true this up nicely.
Thanks for posting this video. I've never seen an engine that old torn down and found it very interesting to see and understand the differences from then to now.
I love it and realized I had one of those valve seat tools in my old tools stuff (mostly from my Dads we salvaged). I went right to it and got it out and now I know what it was for and at least used on Jeeps and maybe others in the 46 to 64 period before he died in a boat wreck.
I noticed that Eckler's makes a conversion kit to modern one piece valve guides and modern valves. Maybe installing that kit means machining valve seats will be easier, too. Also, I noticed that they sell things to convert to insert bearings, but it says certain machining procedures are needed. I'm not sure if those are procedures you are equipped to do.
As always, impressive standards and quality. Reminds me of a talk I attended of a NASA engineer. He said there’s artistry in the work of the best engineers. I would revise to “best engineers and machinists”. Thanks for the great content!
I inherited 3 model A's from my grandpa and a whole box of tools like that. I'm looking at my valve spring compressor now and they definitely look similar but different than yours. U.S. patent # 2,119,128
Valve stems were designed that way for a couple reasons. One is because the stems ride directly against the cam with the guide so far away that there was the risk of bending valve stems from deflection. With a wider tip it spreads the load and helps reduce deflection. I think Briggs took note of this phenomenon and is probably why you will see tappets that sit in a guide bore with the valve stem tip in many of their flathead engines.
The valve stem doesn't ride on the cam, it is pushed by the cam follower. If you look at the video about 11:40 the hollow mount the spring is sitting on is where the cam follower comes through. The hole you can see on the front of the block is the front camshaft bearing which runs under the cam follower bores.
In my machine shop days (early 70’s) I went a few times out to a customer site with, from what I remember, a Kwik way piece of equipment which bolted to the top of a flat head block. These were old WWll search lights and they needed new valve seats. Because they had a few valve jobs before, I would have to cut a pocket with the Kwik way and install new Stelite seats. Then grind them with the white stones from Goodson. I actually might still have the kit?
With babit you usually pour the babit around the part with dams then machine an oil grove. You use the soot from an acetylene torch on the shaft to keep it from sticking. no line boring.
I am an "old" restorer of Model A's, have never heard of Milts, but the go to parts (new and used originals) is Bert's Model A in Colorado. I believe, they are still in business, I bought a used Model B motor from them for my latest restoration, it is similar to the Model A block but with bigger mains and rods journals and partially pressurized oil system which most restorers these days convert to full main/rod/cam pressurization. All the original rod/main bearings were poured babbit bearings, not commonly done today, so most new rebuilds get converted to modern shell bearings. There is a new block being made by Terry Burtz that has 5 mains and full oil pressure system, he also has a new 5-main crank available as well as rods and lightened flywheels for long-type clutches.
@@Mrcaffinebean I did get a lot of looks and comments. All I drive are old cars and daily driver duty is split between a '50 Dodge, '56 Plymouth and'48 DeSoto.
I'm very excited to see the work done on this engine. Older engines have always fascinated me, especially flatheads. I'm also hoping to see y'all work on a 7.3L Powerstroke if one ever comes in.
Me Too I have a 2001 7.3 Diesel in my F-250 just a little shy of break-in Milage of 250,000 miles. I plan on keeping it going for quite some time... so I’m expecting 500-750 K miles out of the Engine. Before anything major needs work, I’ll be just a happy camper till then waking up to the smell of Diesel in the Morning 😊 what more could an old Army Construction Equipment Repaired ask for ? More Coffee 😂 of course!
As somebody else mentioned, the Ford 9N tractor, introduced in 1939, used the mushroom head valves and split guides. Sometime in the production run (I forget when) of the 9N, 2N and 8N variants they switched over to one piece guides and split keepers. It’s standard during overhaul to go to the one piece guides and split keepers. Finding an engine with mushroom valves is unusual. Before anyone gets the idea that there is any parts interchangeability between the Model A and the tractor (common misperception) there isn’t. The four cylinder engine used in the tractor is half of a flathead Ford V8. At every tractor show somebody comes up to me and pronounces that the engine must be an upgraded Model A. Wrong. The only thing shared is a single electrical part, the cutoff.
There is something beautiful about the engineering of this engine. I'm about your age so for me the easy seems like how it's setup today with the valves in the head, but I forget the casting and technology of the time. It's a pretty elegant solution to their limitations.
My grandpa said he machined temporary bronze guide that he could pop in and cut the seats then pop back out to install the split guides afterwards, may he rest in peace, but i asked the very same question about runout when i was 16, good lord that seems like yesterday but I'm 36 now lol
That's amazing. My yt recommendations came up with an original video of building model A engines last night and I thought that it would be good to have a closer look at one. Now this video is released
@@MrTheHillfolk This was a Ford factory video and they had clouds of volcanic casting sand dust and clouds of fumes when they were pouring the block and no ones was wearing a mask and they were covered in black dirt.
There is a guide that you take the guide out and put it in the parent bore of the guide !!!! I have some for flat head engine's!!! Came with my soix seat grinder 😊👍👍👍👍
Looking forward to the Model A rebuild, and the work on the Jag too! Hey, I've got that K-D spring compressor tool so I'm in good company. Used it on my flathead International Green Diamond engine. Also, the old, old family heirloom toolbox is a nice touch.
My '41 Ford 9N tractor has those style of valve guides. It has clips that hold the split guides into the block. I'm pretty sure that they offer one piece guides for replacements.
Funny how I did a tune up at work the other day on a model A and now you guys are machining an engine for one. I'm the resident Ford fanatic at the shop I work at and between my boss and coworker, I'm the only one that knows how to operate a model A... "Hey, show us how this thing works!" Guess I was just the guy for the job because I've owned a '29 myself. The customers issue ended up being in the distributor. Several years ago he had it serviced. Someone put a whole new swashplate (I think that's what you'd call it) in it and didn't lube the lobe and sweeper for the points and so the point gap closed up on it.
Watch Paul Shinn’s channel for expert advice and servicing of Ford Model A’s. The distribution is different from most flatheads and actually needs to be greased. Timing these engines with the spark control set correctly is very important to prevent “kickback” when starting.
My strategy here would be to machine a little brass or bronze bushing on a lathe that would fit the valve guide hole fairly tightly and then use that to guide the regular valve pilot for the seat cutter. However, that's coming from an engineer and we all know that us engineers aren't held in high regard by machinists.
My dad poured his own babbits for a stationary Sears economy hit and miss, when I was a kid, I know he used wood forms / molds he hand cut, and copper tubing.
If you opt for the bushing, build it with a larger diameter 'stop' shoulder at the top. The extra radial surface will steady it against the block. The interference fit won't need to be as tight, if you want to put expansion stress on the cast iron guide bores.
An old timer once told me (in 1972ish) that when he was a kid in the 30’s that they would replace the Babbitt bearings with a leather belt section. It would last a weekend for partying purposes before it would knock a bit. Then they’d do it again for the next weekend! I don’t know if he told me the truth but he sure could spin a great story.
Find “secrets of speed” or “scalded dog” racing the guy to talk to is Charles Yapp. There’s a whole following of horse power guys with those 201cc bangers. The Babbitt can be replaced with insert bearings
send the Pistons to Line2Line coatings and have the skirts built up with thete abradable coating. that'll fix your clearance wear issues. pouring babbit bearings is easy. however, iirc, there's a company that makes insert bearings fpr those engine's, I'm fuzzy on the details but guys hace been converting those blocks forever
That split valve guide system and extra wide tolerances is for assembly ease/speed. Look for a book called "Ford Methods and Ford Shops" it shows all the manufacturing advancements used in those factories and you'll see how all of the part designs and process methods were to continuously improve manufacturing efficiency. There's a photo in there of a single drill machine creating around 48 simultaneous holes in those engine blocks. The book is more on Model T than Model A but it's impressive history. I believe my 1953 Allis Chalmers WD engine which I recently got, that has a side plate valve cover like you have there, has similar mechanisms -- so maybe hunt up a few tractor engines.
Love your videos Man! You seem like a great guy. Totally appreciate your work ethic and focus on quality! Your attention to detail and clear explanation of your project and what you plan to do and the follow through is always impressive! Haven't watched all your vids yet but I'm working on it. Keep up the great work brother. I'll be watching for the next one.
This is like Bill Nye the science Guy to a 3-year-old but, it's still very intriguing and I love to watch lol. You have a great channel and I love watching machinist work ✌️🇺🇲🥂
Those were the days the valve seats were cut with a stone.There was a certain mount of skill require to get the seat right, I still have a complete setup. Did my first valve grinding 66 years a go. I was12. My father was mechanic who used to race model Ts.
Love the content, I'm not really a car guy or even a machinery person, but I find this stuff really interesting to watch for some reason 🤣 it's probably because I know almost nothing about the topic, but it's just interesting to learn new stuff everytime you upload.
Awesome! Amazing what these guys did with the tooling available. Look at those castings for the water jackets. Eh, water can get through there were good! 😂 Keep up the good work! Excited to see the rest of this series as well as finishing up the Jag.
That's just the way they went together...as you grind and cut the valve and seat, the dimensions are going to change for tappet clearance. No adjustable lifter. I build A and B engines...one on the stand now. AER has modern guides, that press in, and valves with straight stems and two piece keepers. Then all your seat grinding problems go away. Install new adjustable tappets. Contact me for a discussion
It is so much fun watching you learn... Props to your father for teaching you that hard work is a good thing instead of sitting in front of a computer all day or getting a underwater basket weaving degree...
If you see me at SEMA this week, stop me and say hello! Maybe I'll give you a free sticker... :)
I’ve seen that Hagerty video. It’s a great video. I enjoy their Timelapse videos as well.
Look for rob dahm, he has a white rx7 fd with wide bodykit
Won't you feel sick at sema with all the sewage and fakery builds present?
I mainly go for the trade show aspect to network & make connections. The builds are just a bonus, but some are definitely not my style 😂
@@JAMSIONLINE SEMA build and PRI built are 2 different things. SEMA builds just have to look good from 50+ feet away. PRI builds actually have to work so if they look good you know it’s a 10/10
My father was in Brazil as a young man from 1924 to 1936 and had a Ford garage.
When he returned to Germany, he brought with him various tools for repairing Ford engines, the use of which he explained to me many years later in our new workshop here in Germany.
The split valve guides were necessary because of the mushroomed valve stem. This large lower diameter of the valve stem was necessary to dampen valve noise and protect the camshaft along with an oil cushion between the camshaft and valve stem. The valves could not be adjusted by means of set screws but were "adjusted" tighter by grinding on the seat or larger by grinding on the stem The valve spacing was kept quite large from the factory or after a repair since an adjustment could only be accomplished with great effort.
For mounting the valve guides there was a special tool with which one could tap the guides in to place.
This comment comes from Germany and please excuse my, most likely awkward english.
Great information
Your english is better than many natives.
Only a German would apologize for their perfect English.
Good job, your English is pretty much spot on. I’m in machining and engine building, but in college minored in English cause I like to read and writing papers came easy to me. I don’t really see any errors besides what may arguably be called a “run-on” sentence…where you cram too many ideas together and your subjects/verb/direct objects/prepositional phrases start getting all linked together and turn into compound sentences and just become “muddy” and hard for the reader to understand coherently while scanning thru text visually. The key to reading clarity being understanding something the first time, not having to reread something. Like that big ass long sentence I just typed, lol. The way I see it, when we type messages out it’s more of a written representation of verbal communication which not everyone does in the same way as they would, or are capable of if indeed they intended to write something out properly in their native language.
@@robertmason8341 I was going to say -- are you trying to demonstrate a run on? 😉
This split valve guide actually allows the valve to "float" a little to enable it to seal on the valve seat. I actually have one of those tools somewhere and my Uncles rebuilt many of those old engines back in the day. This float allowed the seats to be slightly misaligned and for the tooling of the day it definitely sped up building of the engine valve train
Idk for certain, but i'd bet another reason was to save time drilling out the hole for the pushrod. If the halves are cast separately, then they can already have most of the hollow cast in there. The drill then doesn't have to hog out everything, only clean it up. Or you could use a horizontal mill to gang-mill multiple valve guide halves at a time; if it was one piece then you are forced to drill the hole one at a time.
Heehee ,this is also probably part of why our Grandpa used to tell us a valve job would last 30k.
I mean it works, but it shows how far we've come.
That is ,until the last 10yrs when "they" have gotten stupid and longevity of parts is going backwards. 😄
@@superdupergrover9857 pushrod…on a flathead? You sure about that? Did you intend to say valve stem? LOL!
@@chucksgarage7165 Forde called lifters "pushrods"!
as time goes on technology gets better sloppy valves and seat are ok in a lov reving engine but the youngster works to a higher spec that modern engines work to because or the higher reves iv straightened valves and groubd them in with engine oil and sand used green hermitite on the head gasket on a Honda gold wing 1100 1980 model you tent to know what you can and cant get away with i run like that for years but when your doing it for a living and telling the world you have to be spot on because theres alway someone winging who dont want to pay and feels that every one in life owes him ...
The first shop I worked at had wood plank floors and opened in 1917. There were several old machines in the back area of the machine shop. The equipment was there for babit bearing pours, piston knurling, ring groove cutters, and I specifically remember a pair of spring pliers that didn't have the ratchet mechanism. The foreman used to use them to see how long he and the rest of us could hold springs in tension. The manuals were one of the more interesting items that were there, plenty of times people doing restorations on stuff from the 20s and 30s would come by just to take pictures of or scan specific portions of the manuals. There was a seat at a small counter that we used to call "the library", there was no way we were going to allow a manual or document to leave the shop. If you wanted to do some research and were a known customer, by all means have at it. That shop is still there and still putting out good work to this day as far as I know.
One last thing, flat head engines were still common up until the 80s in industrial equipment. Continental, Massey, etc
I love the old manuals. When I was in the Navy still I spent shore duty in an instrument repair shop. We had a wheel and flap indicator that is still used today that had a manual with the latest revision in 1942. It was probably the best, most descriptive manual I've ever seen in my life. It was clearly made for farm boys who went to war and had no training on repairing delicate instruments, down to pictures of little elves holding north and south poles of a magnet to show how it worked.
Would love to see a contemporary manual. Did they call for..0075" 3x .0025" in shims like factory or the stupid laminated shim packs. Did they scrape, or line bore to a spec based on the crank dia, and spin the crank with a motor and special shims, to burnish the bearings to the crank journals
Did you know Henry Ford or Walter Chrysler?
Hi Jim! I think Milt’s sold in the early 60s, Gould had it as a NAPA store in 1970. I just sold all my grandfathers model A tools last summer he had all the tools to rebabit those engines.
I am 69 years old and have seen lots of different engine design features in that time. This is the first early ford engine I have seen, and your description of these differences and how you will overcome them is what makes the JAMSI channel a true stand out. I cannot wait for the next work on this engine. Enjot SEMA, careful not to spend too much.....
My dad owned an engine shop in Tampa Florida. Even in the 70's there were few that did the Babbitt bearings. I worked for him as a teen and we did a few. He would do the bearings then had a long grinder that he mounted just like a crankshaft so all the bearings were straight, true and the same dimensions.it was amazing the crud that the old oil from decades before could build up.
Ford ran split guides from in the T, A and B fours, the V-8 and V-12s. The tulip on the valve stem saved money and having a machinist and the equipment to do the keeper grooves. No costly valve spring retainer cap either. Ford was frugal but it also helped him to keep the sale price low and still make a profit.
Model A transmission crates were cut to be a direct drop in for floor boards after they were unpacked, other wood scraps were made into KingsFORD Charcoal at the Rouge plant
You and the new guy going into grandpa's old toolbox got me right in the feels.
Best part of this video, and thats saying something
I did auto restoration for several shops, including 1 shop where I was the Model A chassis and driveline specialist. I think there used to be a company if my mind serves me right that used to make insert bearings for the mains and probably for the rods too. We didn't do too many engines in house, but sometimes we would have problems with a vender built piece, so I would be called on to make it right. We had a lot of problems with valve sealing for the same reasons you found. Since I was also the shop machinist I made a pilot that located off of the valve guide bore and locked tightly from the bottom with a bolt. The cutter spun on the pilot. This setup was sturdy enough to hand cut pockets for seat inserts. As for the flared ends on the valves, machining grooves or drilling holes to fit a retainer took at best several seconds. Henry Ford found that if you induction heated the end of the valve and forged the end in a punch press it took less than 2 seconds. The retainers were also hot forged by punch press..
my father has been an automotive machinist for 45+ yrs he used to do babbit bearings. definitely a lost art
I used to work at a small engine repair shop in SC (Battery Electric Co) in the late 2000s that also did some carburator and machining work. The machinist (Lewis) was in his late 70s and he poured babbitt bearings, ground crankshafts, and stitched cracks in cast iron blocks (in addition to the more standard stuff). We had a pretty steady stream of model-A & model-T blocks and cranks in the shop from all up and down the east coast. Pretty cool.
In our shop we also had a knurled for the skirts of pistons to reduce clearance in a worn bore and worn skirt. Thanks for the memories!!
Your videos are getting better everytime we all enjoy them.
a bit of a heads up from what I can see there's still a lot of life in the babbitt in that block and the rods. If there where still more then 2 or 3 shims in the mains and connecting rods they still are in usable range. the way to adjust a babbitt crank is to remove shims as needed to tighten the crank and rods to fit for proper running so if they still had a stack of shims it's still fine
Looking forward to seeing you guys work more on this engine. I'm currently in the process of semi-restoring a 31 Model A for my neighbor. Had a local blowhard trying to convince my neighbor that he just needs to slap a new set of bearings in and she'll be good to go.
I spent the next 30 minutes trying to explain what babbitt bearings were and that you don't just order them from a catlog
There are a lot of theories, but I'm of the belief that the valves were made like that to cut down on complex machining procedures. With a modern type valve arrangement, the valves have to be pretty darn close to spec for the retainers to slide in at all, whereas with the bell ended valves, it could be pretty well wrong, and still work as intended. Likely made the assembly process more efficient too (looser tolerances = less parts rejected for quality issues/ less waste)
I have seen the wrong vales, way out of spec "small" ends, bent valves, and even one engine come in with eight different length valve springs- all with the customers saying that they "ran good, just using a bit more oil". It never ceased to amaze me the condition that the valvetrain, pistons, etc could be in, and the old flathead still runs about as good as it ever did.
The biggest issue we ever had was tearing then down and finding cracks everywhere (of course the model a engines were over 70yrs old when I was working on them, so I'm sure that had something to do with the conditions I saw)
yup.... any engine that you can think of that is known for reliability is kinda the same......
AKA.... under-stressed
.
because everything is just a big "bigger" than needed...... their is a lot of "room" for imperfections and wear
.
.
while a modern 1000CC 3 cylinder that makes 600HP
AKA HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY stressed...... if one cylinder is down 3% on compression.... it just refuses to run at all
.
.
.
ill take my 190HP jeep 4.0 that will THRIVE on abuse and neglect
over a more fuel efficient engine that makes 400HP
.
(PS...a HeeP "grand native american" is still a brick.... so i might go from 20 MPG with the 4.0..... to 25 with a modern engine thats lasts 1/4 as much......... not worth it to me)
I'll continue to watch and learn about this engine. I have a 1929 model A coupe I've been restoring for the last 15 years. Maybe I'll have it done by it's 100th anniversary.. 😁
Keith Rucker from Vintage Machinery has a great video on pouring babbit bearings
It's good to see someone taking so much pride in their work. Doing it as it should be not just doing it as everyone else has because "that's how we've always done it". Keep up the good work!
If he doesn’t redo the Babbitt bearings he might as well reassemble it as is and send it back; it’s like taking a shower then putting on drawers with raving stripes…
I really appreciate the fact that y’all are willing to work on everything that comes through the door. I have a much newer classic than this one (65 T-bird) and I’ve been flat out turned down by 2 transmission shops and supposedly the best upholstery shop in town. They have plenty of work and they don’t want to fool with my old car!
Aye. It's a bit more interesting than seeing someone only working on high-end performance engines.
this why you need a small manual lathe, turn some custom bushings to get this type of work done
Well done and very interesting. I've owned my 1931 Model A for 55 years; had the engine rebuilt at a machine shop in Escalon California in 1979 and installed it in 1992 - have 23000 miles on it and it runs like new - stock as a rock. Can't wait to see what else you do to that old block. Killer machine shop tag on the side!
I own a 31 Ford. Watching and learning. Thanks.
I have one of those valve spring compressors. I had no idea what it was. That's awesome to finally know what I have and what it turned out to be.
I wish all machinist , mechanics took as much pride in their work as you do ! That "it's good enough" attitude is why Everything is crap and falls apart so fast! Your intellectual curiosity about the engine is refreshing I wish more young people had it! Keep up the good work 👍
Ps.that second patent date 7-10-23 was the day my Dad was born.
I have to say that I've been binging your videos and although I'm a software engineer I want to work in a machine shop to do this kind of quality work. nice job!
if I lived anywhere near you I would not take my engine anywhere else.
I tell you what, that cleaning guy is coming along pretty well.... But seriously, great video. Nice work.
That's really awesome that you get to use your grandfather's old valve spring compressor on an engine of similar vintage 🤘
It’s hard to find good cleaning guys like that anymore. 👍
Thanks to your videos I've finally found my calling. Unfortunately I retired after 44 years as a truck fleet mechanic. Really enjoy. Keep em comming.
Babbitt is interesting stuff, it's not as common today in car or truck engines. Though there are still some Machined that use it for high load bearings or the need for precision tolerance. That aside, for a lot of babbitt bearings, if they're not loose or have chunks missing, deep gouging, embedded contamination (shards of metal, dirt, corrosion, etc) it's often best to leave it alone. But if you are resizing, the heat it with a torch to melt it off/out. Fit your cores and measure for oil holes. Fit your mould walls, soot up anything you don't want it to stick to, pour the bearing. Check the work after the first pour cools. Check it, place to paper or gasket material shims to give room for the crank dimensions, ad the second pour mould then your core, pour again. Check for adhesion, bore to size, drill oil holes if needed, carve channels for the oil, chamfer the edges smooth, deburr remaining edges. Make a sacrifice to the pagan gods. Hope you don't have to do it again because it's not correct.
From what I've heard from folks ,there can't be more than a few handful of folks still doing babbit bearings.
Unless some kids have picked it up since,idk.
Back 20 yrs ago my dad's buddy had a heck of a time finding someone to redo his model A bearings.
@@MrTheHillfolk I only know about it from helping a machinist that probably had to tell Jesus how to properly drive a nail. But even that was some fifteen years ago now and he's long gone.i did leave out that whatever the bearing is being poured into has to be hot enough to not be able to hold your hand on for more than a second or two. Else it'll flash 'freeze' before it properly fills the bearing area. But, that said. Keep the oil or grease in it and a babbitt bearings should be good for decades of use.
@@MrTheHillfolk Keith Rucker pours Babbitt bearings on his channel. He just finished pouring and fittings half Babbitt bearings on a large cane grinding mill that he restored.
Wish these guys were out my way. The skill and sincerity makes a difference.
Love the cleaning guy his full of knowledge
Really cool to see how different the designs were in the old days to accommodate their tooling, capability, and assembly and such. Have fun at sema! Some of the other guys on youtube put an indycar engine in a pickup truck to show off there. Would love to see that myself.
It’s an old 4 cyl Briggs and Stratton.
I’ve set up a few ford flatheads. The adjustable lifters make it easier. The old style are a pain if your not set up to grind to fit. Replace the worn guides. It’s worth it.
Thank you JAMSI for sharing this great automotive technology of Henry Ford. Greetings from Borneo Island! Your "cleaning guy" need more screen time to share his automotive story back in the day😁😁😁
I had one of those valve spring compressing tools that we found in our barn/garage when we moved into our house in 1973, I kind of knew what it was for but never what application.
Between the Jamsi and I DO CARS uploads, I am a happy man. Great video once again.
this is a great relaxing channel. always interesting. i'll check out I DO CARS
@@jeffhopper3526 I Do Cars is the exact opposite lol. They tear down motors while Jamsi builds them
Make custom Press fit valve guides, and flanges for spring from bottom of valve
With nice guides without any play, you can cut precisious valve seat
Never worked on a Mode A engine but worked on a my granddad’s Ford 8n quite a bit which has a lot of the same peculiar things going on. I see there are 1 piece valve guide kits out there.
Another consideration just popped in mind. You aren’t worried so much I would thing about how much play is in the guide, but how close can you match the existing lifter/tappet. On every other type of engine you have pushrods or followers that allow some take up of tolerance whereas here the tappet is right on the valve.
I would think a template lifter sized for your machine plus the appropriate guides would true this up nicely.
This is way more interesting than watching someone tweak an engine computer or do another dang LS swap.
A combined engineering and history lesson. 👍
I agree. Ls swaps were getting really uninteresting 10 years ago nowadays its just a complete snooze
Thanks for posting this video. I've never seen an engine that old torn down and found it very interesting to see and understand the differences from then to now.
I love it and realized I had one of those valve seat tools in my old tools stuff (mostly from my Dads we salvaged). I went right to it and got it out and now I know what it was for and at least used on Jeeps and maybe others in the 46 to 64 period before he died in a boat wreck.
I noticed that Eckler's makes a conversion kit to modern one piece valve guides and modern valves. Maybe installing that kit means machining valve seats will be easier, too. Also, I noticed that they sell things to convert to insert bearings, but it says certain machining procedures are needed. I'm not sure if those are procedures you are equipped to do.
As always, impressive standards and quality. Reminds me of a talk I attended of a NASA engineer. He said there’s artistry in the work of the best engineers. I would revise to “best engineers and machinists”. Thanks for the great content!
Did quite a few flatheads back in the day. Learned how to pour and fit babbitt bearings to the crankshaft .I think I still have the tooling
I inherited 3 model A's from my grandpa and a whole box of tools like that. I'm looking at my valve spring compressor now and they definitely look similar but different than yours. U.S. patent # 2,119,128
Valve stems were designed that way for a couple reasons. One is because the stems ride directly against the cam with the guide so far away that there was the risk of bending valve stems from deflection. With a wider tip it spreads the load and helps reduce deflection. I think Briggs took note of this phenomenon and is probably why you will see tappets that sit in a guide bore with the valve stem tip in many of their flathead engines.
The valve stem doesn't ride on the cam, it is pushed by the cam follower. If you look at the video about 11:40 the hollow mount the spring is sitting on is where the cam follower comes through. The hole you can see on the front of the block is the front camshaft bearing which runs under the cam follower bores.
In my machine shop days (early 70’s) I went a few times out to a customer site with, from what I remember, a Kwik way piece of equipment which bolted to the top of a flat head block. These were old WWll search lights and they needed new valve seats. Because they had a few valve jobs before, I would have to cut a pocket with the Kwik way and install new Stelite seats. Then grind them with the white stones from Goodson. I actually might still have the kit?
I grew up working on these, cool to see one on TH-cam.
With babit you usually pour the babit around the part with dams then machine an oil grove. You use the soot from an acetylene torch on the shaft to keep it from sticking. no line boring.
I am an "old" restorer of Model A's, have never heard of Milts, but the go to parts (new and used originals) is Bert's Model A in Colorado. I believe, they are still in business, I bought a used Model B motor from them for my latest restoration, it is similar to the Model A block but with bigger mains and rods journals and partially pressurized oil system which most restorers these days convert to full main/rod/cam pressurization. All the original rod/main bearings were poured babbit bearings, not commonly done today, so most new rebuilds get converted to modern shell bearings. There is a new block being made by Terry Burtz that has 5 mains and full oil pressure system, he also has a new 5-main crank available as well as rods and lightened flywheels for long-type clutches.
Looking forward to more info on this block! I have a '28 block, a lathe, a mill and an urge to give it a go. 😄
I put a lot of miles on a Model A in the early 2000's. Used it as a daily driver. Never had to get into the engine. Excellent little car.
what is the fuel efficiency for your model A?
@@lordjaashin If I remember correctly it was in the mid teens.
I bet you got a lot of fun comments for people amazed to see it as a daily driver.
@@Mrcaffinebean I did get a lot of looks and comments. All I drive are old cars and daily driver duty is split between a '50 Dodge, '56 Plymouth and'48 DeSoto.
@@72polara that's awesome man! The way cars are going these days I think classics are a better value.
Best video yet. Love the technical side, but the local history side is so interesting
Keith Rucker of vintage machinery demonstrates regularly how Babbitt is poured and what that material it is
I was thinking the same thing
Me 2. The babbitt process is easy but hard.
Keith Fenner too.
We did it a lot when I was in the Navy. Really cool how it’s done.
Hand Tool Rescue has done it a few times. The old steam engine he restored had a few.
A grand video. Love seeing the old stuff. I would think machining a sleeve would be the quickest/easiest way to go.
I'm very excited to see the work done on this engine. Older engines have always fascinated me, especially flatheads. I'm also hoping to see y'all work on a 7.3L Powerstroke if one ever comes in.
Me Too I have a 2001 7.3 Diesel in my F-250 just a little shy of break-in Milage of 250,000 miles. I plan on keeping it going for quite some time... so I’m expecting 500-750 K miles out of the Engine. Before anything major needs work, I’ll be just a happy camper till then waking up to the smell of Diesel in the Morning 😊 what more could an old Army Construction Equipment Repaired ask for ?
More Coffee 😂 of course!
Keith Rucker makes pouring bearings not to bad, so long as you have the proper shaft
As somebody else mentioned, the Ford 9N tractor, introduced in 1939, used the mushroom head valves and split guides. Sometime in the production run (I forget when) of the 9N, 2N and 8N variants they switched over to one piece guides and split keepers.
It’s standard during overhaul to go to the one piece guides and split keepers. Finding an engine with mushroom valves is unusual.
Before anyone gets the idea that there is any parts interchangeability between the Model A and the tractor (common misperception) there isn’t. The four cylinder engine used in the tractor is half of a flathead Ford V8. At every tractor show somebody comes up to me and pronounces that the engine must be an upgraded Model A.
Wrong. The only thing shared is a single electrical part, the cutoff.
There is something beautiful about the engineering of this engine. I'm about your age so for me the easy seems like how it's setup today with the valves in the head, but I forget the casting and technology of the time. It's a pretty elegant solution to their limitations.
Absolutely loved seeing this engine block! Everything is similar to today's engines but the differences are fascinating! Thank you!!!
My grandpa said he machined temporary bronze guide that he could pop in and cut the seats then pop back out to install the split guides afterwards, may he rest in peace, but i asked the very same question about runout when i was 16, good lord that seems like yesterday but I'm 36 now lol
That's amazing. My yt recommendations came up with an original video of building model A engines last night and I thought that it would be good to have a closer look at one. Now this video is released
Yeah I saw a babbitt pour a few weeks back,pretty neat.
@@MrTheHillfolk This was a Ford factory video and they had clouds of volcanic casting sand dust and clouds of fumes when they were pouring the block and no ones was wearing a mask and they were covered in black dirt.
There is a guide that you take the guide out and put it in the parent bore of the guide !!!! I have some for flat head engine's!!! Came with my soix seat grinder 😊👍👍👍👍
Great video! Create an insert on the lathe to use as a guide for your seat cutter.
check out kieth Rucker vintage machinery kieth does alot of babbitt pours and does a good job explaining them
Looking forward to the Model A rebuild, and the work on the Jag too! Hey, I've got that K-D spring compressor tool so I'm in good company. Used it on my flathead International Green Diamond engine.
Also, the old, old family heirloom toolbox is a nice touch.
These old machines are an important part of our history. Those engines made America!
Kieth Rucker has great videos on the Babbitt bearing process
You are correct in your pursuit. Henry’s block drawings are to .0005. Some assume there was no such precision 100 yrs ago. Just not true. Great work!
I bet whoever owns that shop is a happy guy. Great explanation.
My '41 Ford 9N tractor has those style of valve guides. It has clips that hold the split guides into the block. I'm pretty sure that they offer one piece guides for replacements.
that would be a horse shoe clip
Funny how I did a tune up at work the other day on a model A and now you guys are machining an engine for one. I'm the resident Ford fanatic at the shop I work at and between my boss and coworker, I'm the only one that knows how to operate a model A... "Hey, show us how this thing works!" Guess I was just the guy for the job because I've owned a '29 myself. The customers issue ended up being in the distributor. Several years ago he had it serviced. Someone put a whole new swashplate (I think that's what you'd call it) in it and didn't lube the lobe and sweeper for the points and so the point gap closed up on it.
Watch Paul Shinn’s channel for expert advice and servicing of Ford Model A’s. The distribution is different from most flatheads and actually needs to be greased. Timing these engines with the spark control set correctly is very important to prevent “kickback” when starting.
Hats off to MILTS, they used a quality tag to mark their work, the good old days.. not a writable sticker that lasts 2 years...
My strategy here would be to machine a little brass or bronze bushing on a lathe that would fit the valve guide hole fairly tightly and then use that to guide the regular valve pilot for the seat cutter. However, that's coming from an engineer and we all know that us engineers aren't held in high regard by machinists.
My dad poured his own babbits for a stationary Sears economy hit and miss, when I was a kid, I know he used wood forms / molds he hand cut, and copper tubing.
I Really enjoyed the video, especially seeing grandpas old tools!
These men know what they`re doing. Great !
Looking forward to seeing the solution you come up with!
We had spring compressors like that in shop class to work on small engines
If you opt for the bushing, build it with a larger diameter 'stop' shoulder at the top. The extra radial surface will steady it against the block. The interference fit won't need to be as tight, if you want to put expansion stress on the cast iron guide bores.
An old timer once told me (in 1972ish) that when he was a kid in the 30’s that they would replace the Babbitt bearings with a leather belt section. It would last a weekend for partying purposes before it would knock a bit. Then they’d do it again for the next weekend!
I don’t know if he told me the truth but he sure could spin a great story.
Find “secrets of speed” or “scalded dog” racing the guy to talk to is Charles Yapp. There’s a whole following of horse power guys with those 201cc bangers. The Babbitt can be replaced with insert bearings
send the Pistons to Line2Line coatings and have the skirts built up with thete abradable coating. that'll fix your clearance wear issues. pouring babbit bearings is easy.
however, iirc, there's a company that makes insert bearings fpr those engine's, I'm fuzzy on the details but guys hace been converting those blocks forever
It’s good to see kids that give care to previous generations tools and skill.
That split valve guide system and extra wide tolerances is for assembly ease/speed. Look for a book called "Ford Methods and Ford Shops" it shows all the manufacturing advancements used in those factories and you'll see how all of the part designs and process methods were to continuously improve manufacturing efficiency. There's a photo in there of a single drill machine creating around 48 simultaneous holes in those engine blocks. The book is more on Model T than Model A but it's impressive history. I believe my 1953 Allis Chalmers WD engine which I recently got, that has a side plate valve cover like you have there, has similar mechanisms -- so maybe hunt up a few tractor engines.
Love your videos Man! You seem like a great guy. Totally appreciate your work ethic and focus on quality! Your attention to detail and clear explanation of your project and what you plan to do and the follow through is always impressive! Haven't watched all your vids yet but I'm working on it. Keep up the great work brother. I'll be watching for the next one.
This is like Bill Nye the science Guy to a 3-year-old but, it's still very intriguing and I love to watch lol. You have a great channel and I love watching machinist work ✌️🇺🇲🥂
I saw the beginning of this video on TikTok. I'm so glad I found this video.
Those were the days the valve seats were cut with a stone.There was a certain mount of skill require to get the seat right, I still have a complete setup. Did my first valve grinding 66 years a go. I was12. My father was mechanic who used to race model Ts.
Love the content, I'm not really a car guy or even a machinery person, but I find this stuff really interesting to watch for some reason 🤣 it's probably because I know almost nothing about the topic, but it's just interesting to learn new stuff everytime you upload.
Awesome! Amazing what these guys did with the tooling available. Look at those castings for the water jackets. Eh, water can get through there were good! 😂 Keep up the good work! Excited to see the rest of this series as well as finishing up the Jag.
I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of this machine work!
The last Automotive flat head engine used in the USA was the 195.6 Nash/AMC. It was used through the 1965 model year in the Rambler American model.
Always enjoy the content, fascinating how far we have come with the internal combustion engine!
That's just the way they went together...as you grind and cut the valve and seat, the dimensions are going to change for tappet clearance. No adjustable lifter. I build A and B engines...one on the stand now. AER has modern guides, that press in, and valves with straight stems and two piece keepers. Then all your seat grinding problems go away. Install new adjustable tappets. Contact me for a discussion
It is so much fun watching you learn... Props to your father for teaching you that hard work is a good thing instead of sitting in front of a computer all day or getting a underwater basket weaving degree...
I have that tool somewhere in my shed.. I remember being told it was a valve spring tool, but it never made sense to me how it could be until now.