PROBLEMS Going 2X
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Some issues and fixes going 2x.
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I'm obsessed with 3x9 . The range I can get is unmatched to any 1x out there, and I also enjoy using friction shifters . That's what's nice about bikes, ride what you like!!
I have a 3x9, but indexed. And it runs prefect as well 22/32/44 with a 11-34🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣44 to 34 I get a little rub, but I'm NOT moving to friction.
@@bindingcurve why don't you try friction out ?
@@mryotahead Be there, done that back in the 90s I still have a vintage road bike with down tube shifters. Never like bar ends.
i'm using 2x9 alivio on my blacksnow dragoon. excellent transition between gears.
You only need a 2 by on large wheels. My Tern Verge X11 runs a 52 to 10--42 rear cassette. There is no hill it cannot climb. And it can kiss 30mph on the flat. So that's what's not spoken about here. It's the overall gear ratios. And the WHEEL SIZE has to be factored into this. 20 inch wheels 406 or 451 like the X11 has don't need 2 by systems.
52--42 on my X11 has never been defeated. And I've been up mountains on that baby. And it floats up them..
Triple is the best and unbeatable option for heavy touring.
Your video from back in the day is why I put a mountain double on a road bike of mine and have been watching since.
Info like this is gold because those who want to ride truly personal bikes at Party Pace, and not just accept the unobtanium the industry shovels on the regular-representation is important-to see it is possible-mechanically, and economically. Russ creates the true groupsets of the people.
The old school set ups are much more versatile and modifiable. With modern ramped and pinned gears they work fine if the rider has a clue how to shift properly. Plan shifts ahead, find 'em, DONT GRIND 'em!
Modern stuff requires more proprietary parts because its all designed to function as a system.
Friction shifting simplifies things in a major way since you can vary the amount of the front derailleur's throw easily with limit screws. Its not dictated by the shifter.
On a double chainring setup there is no need for complex indexing if you understand HOW to shift. Trimming the derailleur to avoid chain rub is far easier and infinitely adjustable.
As far as long distance touring goes, cheap low level parts are much more available and way less proprietary. They can be tuned to work just fine. Just not with proprietary modern 'popular' overpriced junk! They're often much easier to find in a pinch.
A 2000$ heavy bike with outdated components is not the answer
@@rollinrat4850 yeah no, you can find entry level indexed shifters at way cheaper price than the friction ones
@@rollinrat4850 I enjoy my old 3x up front. It gives me plenty of range.
@@mahmam3128 These days, $2000 buys a pretty cheap bike unless you're clever enough and buy used junk or get it free like I often do. Really Good old stuff is out there 'cheap' of free if you look hard enough. They certainly don't make 'em like they used to. Ive witnessed most of the bike industry decline for decades. It started when manufacturers began building things in China. Ive worked as a source inspector. Nobody fools me. There's a reason that happened. It is INDEED cheaper, corners are cut, compromise is made, all in the name of corporate profit.
Haha, all my friction shifters are pretty ancient. They were paid for long ago. Often I get this old used stuff for free. Folks think it's just old junk. But Its like finding treasure for me!
Ever been gold prospecting? Its a real thrill when you find something. REALLY Hard work though.
Modern cheap Chinese junk never lasts even half as long as 'good old junk'. Even high end Sram doesnt last that long. When cheap junk requires frequent replacement and repair, it's not so cheap.
My rides are often long enough and remote enough that my life relies upon my bike's reliability. Walking out is hardly an option. There is no cell signal. Ive got to be able to fix things if they break on my own. I ride in
N Wackofornia's largest state park often enough. 80000 acres. Several hundred miles of trail. Part wilderness, sometimes bikepacking for a week all alone, usually I'll fish out there to eat enough.
The entire bike industry is devolving quality wise. I've tested and repaired most of whats on the market and it's mostly just job security. More service, More sales, more PROFIT.
I'd really like to buy some of those fancy Rivendell friction shifters, but my 'old junk' still works fine. I can't justify the cost nor do I see the point.
I'm a retired machinist, mechanical inspector and a shop mechanic running my own business. I could machine my own shifters if I really wanted to. I can measure and prove quality and I've rebuilt and replaced all sorts of shifters on my customer's bikes. Nobody's fooling me. But to each his own. I have customers who constantly abuse, break and ignore their high end junk, not to even mention the cheap Chinese low end garbage. Its all just more job security.
Modern indexed shifters are complex like clockwork inside. Cheap junk is stamped metal and plastic with cheap weak springs. In other words, you pay for what you get. They've all got a bunch of complicated tiny parts to wear out and get dirty. Its even worse with brifters. This sorta stuff rarely lasts decadeS. Even if you don't use it, it gets worse. Believe it or not. Even the high end junk.
Friction shifters are simple with very few parts to go wrong. The simplicity, long life,
'foolproofness'and reliability makes them an excellent value no matter what they cost. Mine haven't failed to shift yet. When they do, I figure I already got my money's worth 10 years ago.
I use really old Sun Tour ratchets, Dura Ace 8 and 9 speed bar ends, some more than 40 years old. They've all been on several different bikes, toured all over, crashed and raced on a muddy 'cross course, hosed down even. The indexing on all of 'em pretty much wore out a few years ago, then I just switched them to friction, they still work fine. Friction also allows me to use any of my numerous cassettes and wheels, 6 speed thru 10 speed. That's more gears than I'll ever 'need'. I also use some old '80s XC Pro and XT thumb shifters custom machined to fit in the hooks on my dirt drop bars. They used to index as well, still friction shifting just fine. Some still do but I want friction The old Sun Tour XC Pro stuff is as nice as old XTR. Got several for free! This is my 'newest' set up. Its pretty cool because I like riding in the hooks mostly.
You can get away with inexpensive derailleurs, gears and chain, but shifting precision is in the shifters. They're worth spending extra on. This is a pro mechanic's tip. Sometimes paying extra gets you a better product. Sometimes not. I understand why and how. Believe it or not. A fancy derailleur will get bent or torn off the frame much like a cheap one in a crash. Ive got a drawer of broken derailleur. Sometimes I'll take several broken derailleurs and built one good out of all the spare parts. I like recycling and repurposing. Cycling was supposed to be a green sport, opposed to cheap junk that quickly ends up in a landfill. You should check out our dumpster! Derailleurs are expendable, ride hard enough and their destruction is inevitable. Cheap indexed junk is simply shoddy, then it dies an early death. But it's your money. Ride what you like.
Modern 'affordable?' 12 speed Sram and Shimano is finicky, imprecise and clunky shifting. I fix this stuff every day. I wouldn't ride it if it was free! But maybe I might if I was sponsored and they actually paid me.
I can actually afford anything I want. Ive been down that 'upgrade' rabbit hole before. Its empty. But I also see no logic in buying poor quality junk. I simply know better.
I build entirely custom bikes, frame up, just the way I want, often with nice old parts. I DIY as much as I find practical. Ive built my own frames, forks, stems, Ive machined cranks, brakes, hubs and lots more. I build custom wheels as a small business. Bicycles are actually extremely simple machines. Ive helped build aircraft, spacecraft and a surgeon's instruments, lots of other expensive stuff too.
Bikes are relatively easy by comparison. I fixed bikes as an 8 year old. I'm a lifelong bike geek. Its a lifelong lifestyle for over 5 decades.
I can get all the newest high end junk I'd want at cost, but why? My 'old junk' still works just fine.
Besides, it's the rider, not the freakin bike. My favorite, most used bike currently is a fixed gear 'cross bike. So shifting is sort of moot. I just push the pedals a bit harder.
But again, ride whatever you like. Its your money. As long as you ride, that's all that matters.
I fall into the “racer” and look at expensive stuff but love your content. I’ve grabbed lots of ideas for my long days to make them much better.
For heavy load bikepacking I run a double Chainring w/ no derailleur or shifter. Just move by hand to the little ring a the bottom of the mountain.
Apparently you can move with your foot.... Russ mentioned that last video.
I do this too when ever I do a 1x conversion I always leave on the small ring
😂🙃😂
Also may work with narrow wide chainrings for avoiding chain drop, but missing the ability of foot derailleur
The small amount of weight saved by removing small chainring and bolts makes little sense.
Ive run the sans derailleur set up quite often as well with a 1X big chainring. It might force you to try harder on the 'big ring' so you don't need to get off to shift.
When I was a kid in the '70s my derailleur broke and I was also broke. So I learned to shift by hand while I was riding. Never tried with my toe. I think some folks are afraid to get their hands dirty! Downshifts are pretty easy if you plan ahead. The up shifts are trickier but possible if you're not pushing the pedals very hard.
I'm glad I kept my old mountain bike!! A custom frame with no shocks. I hand-picked all the best available parts at the time... (Mid 80s). Sugino triple crankset and suntour 6-speed COG, suntour cyclone derailers front and rear. I figured out the gear ratios, handpicked chain ring sizes and even the individual cog gear sizes. It's still running strong and still my favorite bike! I even have a couple spare old cogs laying around for when mine where's out. I feel sorry for you guys having to deal with such overly priced and limited equipment available.
I and several other ex-road racer friends like 2x for our gravel bikes, too. I ride 10-20 miles on paved roads to get to my favorite gravel roads and single track. We ride bikes that use 700c wheelsets for the most part. My 2 x setup is a 50/34 crankset with a 10-speed 11-42 Shimano Deore CS-4100M cassette. This combination gives my bike a 561% range. That provide both a low enough gear to handle the dirt climbs I do on this bike and eliminates spin-out on the road. I do walk-a-bike one some extreme climbs, but those are rare. I use a Shimano XT M771 9 speed SGS (long cage) rear derailleur because it's compatible with my Ultegra 6600 10-speed STI shifters. A Wolftooth Roadlink is used to allow the derailleur to work with the larger cassette. Front derailleur is 6600 Ultegra. When I first built this configuration, I couldn't get the shifting right, no matter what adjustment to the b-screw and shift cable. After a lot of trouble shooting, I found the problem to be grime in my right STI shifter. I partially disassembled it, cleaned it with carb cleaner, lubed it with light machine oil, and it works like a charm now. I'm super happy with this gear range because it allows me to have a great range of road gears and a good-enough range of off-road gears. Thought I'd add to the conversation about home-built 2x gravel drive trains.
The biggest total range I ever got on my touring bike was a triple 22-32-44 crankset paired to a 11-36 9-speed cassette. It was way more than 600%
Going 2x, your best options to keep that lower gear are the following
22/38->11/36 cassette
26/42->11/40 cassette
28/44-> 11/42 cassette
30/46 -> 11/46 cassette
32/48 -> 11/50 cassette
The majority of those combinations require swapping chainrings on a 2x mtb crankset, and deal with front derailleur compatibility as you mentioned.
If you want to go "cheap", use current components, and get out-of-the-box compatibility, the best option is 10-speed GRX400 46/30 crankset and grx400 derailleurs, paired to an HG-500 11-42 cassette. Use tiagra ST4700 levers If you have mechanical disc brakes.
If you want to jump to 11-speed, go for grx600 46/30 crankset and grx800 derailleurs, paired to any 11/42 or 11/46 cassette. Use 105 ST7000 levers If you have mechanical disc brakes. Another nice addition for higher gears is an XD 10-42 cassette. A 46/10 ratio is equivalent to 50/11.
I put on a 40-24 super-compact chainset on my tourer. This was from a 44-32-22 triple. I wasn’t sure what to do regarding the front derailleur. Anyhow I stuck with the Shimano Altus triple front derailleur with Sora triple STI’s that was already on the bike just to see what happened. With only slight adjustments to the limit screws it worked brilliantly! Lots of indexing/trimming available, and I’ve not had the problem of the chain slipping in between the two chainrings. With a friction shifter it would be even better I imagine. The Altus triple derailleur is extremely cheap and has top and bottom swing options. And from my experience works great with a super-compact double.
Indeed! Friction shifting works much better in these situations. Trimming the derailleurs infinitely is possible when cross chaining.
Friction shifting has a bunch of attributes service wise as well as incredible reliability and almost universal compatibility. Most especially on a two ring setup.
Riders NEED to learn to shift properly and become weaned off the clicky bits. Its the RIDER, not the freakin' bike!
I'm an old school shop mechanic. If anything drives me away from the bike industry, its overpriced, overly complex, unreliable proprietary bike junk! It all makes my job way harder than simple machines ought to be! The good part is that it's ALL job security! Fewer and fewer people are mechanical these days.
More complexity, more service, more sales, MORE PROFIT!
@@janeblogs324 the cross chaining shouldn’t be different to any standard double chainset as the distance between the two chainrings is the same, unless you are using unusual chainrings.
My idea with the super-compact was to have it as a 1x plus granny, so that I would use the small chainring very rarely on steep hills when in the larger sprockets. But it actually works well in the smaller sprockets also. Rides really well and the shifting in the front is pretty much on par with standard double. In the ‘large’ chainring it works in the second to largest sprocket just fine. For reference I’m using a 9 speed 11-36 sunrace cassette and the 40-24 chainset is setup from a 110/74 bcd triple and using the inner 2 chainring positions only.
How do you save comments for future working-in-the-garage inspiration?
"Knuckle-dragging rear derailleur". Brilliant. You can see why the marketing guys call it "long-arm".
Pfft. I'm still running 3x. I was seriously considering going to 1x but I've come to appreciate what I've got. Actually I'm thinking about just swapping my crankset to give me some better low gearing. I'm a big ole corn fed country boy, I'll take all the low end I can get.
I've got the SRAM Dual Drive on a recumbent and love it -- a huge range with 3x9. Both controls are indexed and together on the right bar. The hub gear is easily shifted without pedaling (at a stop), and less problematic than a 3X front derailleur. SRAM discontinued the DD last year, I don't know why. Durability has not been a problem, as long as you're not shifting the hub gears under monster mash strain. And it was not that expensive!
I'm still a fan of 2x because it's way cheaper to get huge range to get an old 2x working than some 11-50 cassette.
2x10 Deore M6000 might still be stocked many places, bought mine a year ago. 38-28 crank +12-36 casette. Shifts super smooth 👍🏻 2 by Party 👍🏻
Deore 2x10 with Clutch is impressive.
This is the quickest most sound option going. To those w older cranks, you can make a decent 2x-
Small and middle rings, or large and middle w nice corresponding cassette in back. You do not need to spend a lot of $$$
What? Put on a drivetrain that works instead of cobbling something together, are you nuts?
My immediate thoughts when you professed your perma-move to 2x systems were how many modern BB clusters, geometries, and tire clearances can only exist because they tossed 2x and 3x drivetrain configurations... Especially in regards to fitting bigger tire volumes in frames.
Living in Alaska and being predominantly a bikepacker, tire volume is a chief concern of mine which effectively rules out running multiple front rings, as the chain will rub the tire in its most inward position.
For me, even before I understood what a derailleur was, I wanted to reduce the number of sprockets on my bike. I remember going into bike shops and asking if and how I could put just one chainring up front and literally being laughed at (back when everything, including MTBs, were mostly 3x). One person even told me how I couldn't bike the trails in Alaska seriously if I didn't run a triple. Extremely condescending to someone just trying to learn (nevermind the fact that there were legendary riders at the time circumnavigated the Brooks and Talkeetna Mountain Ranges on singlespeeds for their reliability).
These days I'll go way WAY out of my way to ensure everything I own is setup singlespeed, even for bikepacking... But I think it's great that folks are now 'retro-engineering' kits to meet their specific needs and goals. That sort of process makes us more connected to our ride and better able to make things work in the field if we need to.
Saying "why would you want to go 2/3x" is just as discouraging as those folks who laughed at me for wanting 1x before it was a thing. It's just important for folks to keep in mind going 2/3x has more bike frame geometry hurtles to overcome than going 2/3x to 1x.
Happy trails 🚲
I am also a fan of 1x. I will say, they can certainly still suffer from chain/tire clearance conflicts. The Surly Wednesday (according to Surly) clears a 4.6” tire in the most rear position. We found out the hard way with a Surly Edna 4.3”, that while it clears the frame, it does not clear the stock 1x12 chain line in the largest gears. Surly told me that this figure was indeed a frame cleanance number, yet it ships with the 1x12.
@@ElevationEveryWeekend indeed! Just tossing a 1x on the bike does not compensate for poor frame design, or enable any combination of drivetrain and tire/rim configurations.
It's amazing how many bikes ship with 12spd groups or expanded cassette groups just because it's become "standard" while being completely ok with chainsuck, terrible chainlines, chain loss while backpedaling at steep gearings, and loss of tire clearance.
I have a number of beautiful custom boost spacing bike frames I designed with 40mm rims and 3.8" tires in mind, where I utilized extra wide square taper BBs (you can find some amazing quality, bizarrely wide titanium spindles floating out there on ebay) and Middleburn/White SS Cranksets. Totally outside the realm of normality, and makes for a spectacular backcountry platform.
For folks who prefer more than singlespeed configurations for bikepacking (most people 😂), I've strongly gone back to recommending 1x10 expanded groups as they are less finicky and prone to some of the surprise limitations of 1x11 and 1x12 groupsets... Plus you can get some great 10spd setups at very affordable prices.
I live in an extremely hilly area so it's super important for me to have that granny gear. When I've already been riding hard for 40 miles and then come up to a crazy mile long climb, I thank myself for having a 3x.
For your situation though, a 1x makes perfect sense. You probably need a wider tyre more than anything else. This is why I find it weird that people judge others on their choices. We know what's best for our situation.
I also got weird looks at the store for saying I prefer mechanical brakes over hydro... When will people learn😂
@@Ferrichrome it's great to see a few more quality mechanical brakes hitting the market. Mechanical brakes are a non negotiable for me given my riding desires.
People have literally told me to my face "well I guess you're just not riding very hard stuff" because of my dislike for hydros. Funny how, if I can control a 100lbs bike fully loaded down a black diamond singletrack, I don't have a need for more stopping power 😂.
Paul Klampers are expensive 🫰 but when dialed with 200mm rotors and quality housing, they are very strong. Even BB7s have great stopping power when setup appropriately. I think most folks just don't know how, and don't want to take the time, to dial in their mechanical brakes every so many miles. I have certainly learned that - due to the singlular piston (don't much prefer the spongy feel of dual piston mechanical brakes except for commuting) - mechanicals just need a tiny bit of regular love to maintain optimization.
Cheers 🥂 🚲
@@renaissancecyclist9120 that is very true about making adjustments. I’m personally not great at it. I haven’t ever had hydro brakes (trying it on my next build). I think it’s wild people just anybody’s choice in bikes negatively if it’s what they like and are happy with it. I thought about going square taper too, but I haven’t. Sounds like you have some cool bikes.
You are so on the money , most logical setup for most cycling situations is 2 x . Thanks PLP for this honest take on the conversion .
Good stuff. I love cobbling things like this together.
The slow crawl to triples...
You're doing the lord's work russ. With gravel and bikepacking becoming so popular, we need those extra gears now more than ever
I have definitely been following your progress, or reach back, to twin disc. You explain the universe well.
Really useful content, thanks for sharing. I’m in the process of converting my Cross Check from compact to sub compact 44x28 double and this covered a couple of issues I was anticipating. I notice you didn’t discuss bb spindle length which may help with front derailleur clearance. I will definitely be looking out for mountain front derailleur though so thanks for the tip :)
thanks for your excellent content, Russ. You speak my language as rider of a touring bike. I'm using 2x converted from my 3x Deore crank with Wickwerks chainrings (38-24). Chainrings are mounted on the inner and middle slots with a "spacer" mounted in the space for the outer chainring position. Chainline is good although I have experimented with spacers in the bottom bracket. Front derailleur is XT 2x that is both top/bottom pull compatible. (still available most serious bike parts websites). Rear derailleur is XT m786 10sp with a 11-36 cassette. Gear ratio and inches is excellent for loaded touring and with 93 gear inches for top end (25mph at 90 cadence) I'm well satisfied. I'm 66 years old and don't need (or can't) spin at 25mph for very long without a huge tailwind or decent decent. In either case, I coast :-) I'm using Microshift XLE dropbar 10 speed shifter on the right and a microshift barend friction for the left (front derailleur. I had been using barends on both but "splurged" on the Microshift dropbar shifters and am very happy with them. So, I'm considering going to 1x that would give me same gear range/ratio with an 11-51 cassette and a 38t chainring (Deore 11speed). Do you see any reason not to do this? I would go back to barend shifters for short term, although Microshift does have an 11sp dropbar shifter available (for $200!) Also, would love to hear your opinion on Wickwerks chainrings.
Hello Russ, I am always late watching your videos but I am happy they exist and that your stuff is often different to the other channels. Its strange how similar the topics are often... This film is the best example and very helpful. we do not want to spend loads of Euro on our parts because here in wintertimes they are rubbed down by water and mud, ice and sand. You can almost see them disappear. Especially in winter it does not matter how beautyful the parts are and experimented with different parts. Finding washers was the hardest part or on the other hand shortening chainring bolts.
I love this video, Russ. Your choices are not for me (this guy drank the kool aid on 1x), but I love tinkering on bikes, and I have done plenty of things others would find questionable. I love that we can all make our bikes our own. The most rad bike is the one that's perfect for your preferences!
Thx Russ, for your continued leadership on the next "event horizon" (see "" what I did there?) in gravel/all-roads cycling. I'm building up a VO Polyvalent right now, and I'd also chosen to go with a Riv Silver 42x28 double. I concur with your conclusions!
thanks for sharing all the info on doubles. I'm going back to a 2x setup for the same reasons and am very interested to hear about the state of parts in this era of 1x and limited ranges
This really is great content and something I hope I had found when I was building my Salsa Marrakesh last year.
I had Tiagra brifters laying around and after seeing Salsa had actually specced a few years old Fargo with Deore M6020 front derailleur and Tiagra brifters, I went the same way. It required a very precise trimming to avoid the chain rubbing the derailleur on each end but it now works strong with 38-26 double. 11/36 behind with GRX derailleur.
If I was doing this again and wanted something cheaper, I'd probably go 2x9 with modern Sora brifters and Alivio Derailleurs as 7-9 speed MTB and road shifters work well together with mtb derailleurs.
I love these kind of hack videos.
This video is just what I needed!I’m running a 10spd xt rear derailleur with a goat link and an 11-42 cassette, 1x. With the janky shifting and big Seattle hills, I bent the two granny gears. Because the bike has deore 2x mountain cranks, I figured I could just throw on the second chainring and install the correctly sized cassette for the derailleur and just get more range for less jank.
You don't even need a front derailleur. Use a 1x chainring most of the time, hand shift in or out of the granny gear for the hard hills.
Nice work ,Russ!!
Thanks for addressing a long term bicycle issue and showing what you've tried. That is real world gearing. I recently tried a 1X bike and did not like the clunky slow shifting.
I changed a 52/42 bike in the early 1970s to a 46/36/26 triple using TA rings without a hitch in installation. I used the bikes Shimano friction derailleurs (I still use friction bar ends on a bike). It was so much better with a high around 89 gear inches and a number a low fast spinning gears.
I think you have taken over well for Frank Berto who long ago advocated for low gears and fatter tires and demonstrated the advantages through scientific trials.
Keep up the good work.
Excellent video packed with great information
1X for the win since I built my first gravel bike. I have a 2X on my other bike and I still haven't figured out how to fix the front derailleur...so annoying! XD
Fantastic video! So useful. Thank you
Great video with lots of practical solutions. It's hands down and shows the pitfalls you may fall into and potential workarounds. And it leaves me in disbelief that some frame manufacturers not even prepare for a later 2x setup. This is clearly a no-go criteria for me when choosing a frame. One thing I might add: Easy to find used front derailleurs for small money and since this is such a simple constructions they won't wear or tear.
@Telegram @path less pedaled what? This is some scam, is it?
its a scam.
@@PathLessPedaledTV yes, and I reported it as such.
Useful info as usual 👍 little things your don’t think about on a build until you start
Awesome addressing two often confusing and problematic issues with drive trains, and nailing the solutions perfectly. Yet more exceptionally good content. Thx.
2x and 3x chainrings have little knobs on the inner sides of the ring that catch the chain and prevent it from falling in between+ help you shift
Thanks! Dealing with this now!
My 2X-XC hardtail mountain bike has to do triple duty: mountain biking, bikepacking, and grav grav riding. Only when mountainbiking do I kinda wish I had 1X. She who must be obeyed allowed me two wheelsets so I have a mountain biking wheelset and a bikepack/grav grav wheelset. I know the right number of bikes is N+1, but she who must be obeyed and my wallet says 1 is the right number of bikes.
Spacer for two piece door hinges work good as chain ring spacers.
They can be purchased with an inner diameter of M8 and also have a relatively small outer diameter, so they dont interfere with the chainring and chain.
I guess they are a bit cheaper than designated chain ring spacers and are also more widely available.
Although I have to say, that I don't know anything about US door hinges or door hinges in general lol
Exactly what I was thinking of doing on my next build: switch from 3x to 2x. Thanks for sharing your experience.
But 3x will be the next big thing!
Wow. You’ve encountered many of the same issues I have faced in building triple cranksets from bare cranks and bike swap chainrings/derailleurs including chainring spacers to keep the chain from jamming into the space between chainrings or riding the tops of the teeth. Most of my cranksets are 110/74 bcd with 48-38-24 or 46-36-24 chainrings. To avoid an occasional dropped chain when shifting to the granny gear I install a Deda dog fang chain deflector next to the granny gear. These work great.
That sounds absolutely great, could you please elaborate?
Does it work well?
Are you index shifting?
Have you considered adapting a MTB triple chainrings before building iit from scratch?
What are the requirements for it to work?
From which manufacturer do the parts come?
How does it compare to a modern 2x10 setup in terms of shifting?
And finally, are you satisfied and if not, what's there to improve?
Love this one.
Loving the 105 gcn reference, spot on
DIY 2 x-. This is the cave of GOOD ideas!!!
This video perfectly outlines why I switched to 1x, all the fiddling and chain run and so on, it was always more trouble than it was worth for me
I made several videos about 1x mullet builds and at the end of it, couldn't get the range I wanted without spending stupid money.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Why stupid money? The Deore 11 speed 11-51 is what I run on my flat bar, and I'm a tight wad. (I do run 7020 105 on my drop bar)
@@bindingcurve the bikes all had drop bars and to get it to work on drop bar bikes you either have to go electronic or other shenanigans.
@@PathLessPedaledTV or just use those friction shifters you have on your bar ends.
OMG, my family has to deal with my face making mouth sounds all day too 😂🤣
I love 58/94 bcd 5 arm cranksets and they're easy to find at bike co-ops (Sugino, Race Face Turbine). 30/44 (w/ 11-36 or 12-36 cassette) is a perfect double and I never need a gear I don't have, nor have any I seldom use, and all the cogs are small, evenly spaced jumps. Every few years manufactures continue make new rings for them. Soon the 1x fad will be over and 94 bcd cranks will be the next big thing again. 😏
You can get a packaged assortment of spacers for chainrings. Makes for easy dialing of random chainrings on double/triple cranksets
You actually do it. And! Jumped the obstacles. The non ramped chainring shifts just fine. How dare you have success! A little finesse is needed maybe... I have mentioned in another comment that narrow wide shifts too, but some hacks are needed. So many nay sayers that don't ACTUALLY try. Love your work.
Roy
I'm running a 22 granny with a 38 narrow wide on my monster cross without a front derailleur. I just keep pushing the 'big ring' until I can't, then get off shift and catch my breath. Sometimes I can shift by hand without getting off. I've been doing that since the '70s.
Lately my old back's hurting and I'm thinking about a front shifter.
What do you hack to shift on the 1X ring?
I have only one bike (93' Trek 520), and I run 2x8, with friction bar end shifters... 42/28 in front, with 11-28 in the back. My "double" is simply a triple with the big outer ring left off. I have zero problems with shifting, or derailer setup or any of that. It works flawlessly. I also do not use ramped/pinned chain rings... just a simple Surly 42 t steel ring for the big. The shifting is fine (I don't race, so I can deal with a slightly less efficient shift than someone in a racing context). I wonder if I would have more problems if I ran 9+ speeds in the back. But I like 8 speed... the parts are super cheap and robust, and everything just works. If I knew for sure that 9 speed would work just as well, I'd probably go for that, adding a 32 on the rear cassette. But as it is, my setup gets the job done, and gets it done well!
I’m all about the 2x and even 3x. Im glad I can point to your super popular channel so I don’t have to feel like an outcast anymore. Granted my favorite bike is a 2014 Tamland and is the newest bike I own. 🤓
Origin8 makes spacers too. I used them to adjust a campy 11 crank to 10 speed.
I built up a gravel frame recently and initially tried to set it up 2x. Frame was new, but I picked up old shifters, cranks and deraillleurs from someone's broken bike on gumtree. 2x didn't work. My problem was that the small chainring rubbed on the chainstays when the cranks were fully tightened. I tried using a couple of spacers to push the chainrings out, but that didn't work with the cranks, they just jammed tight and wouldn't spin with the spacers. I gave up and set the bike up 1x instead, and now I love it and don't think I'd change. (I think I needed a MTB crankset rather than a road bike one, to get the extra axle width). I've got another road-ish bike with classic road bike 2x gearing though, and the extra range is a treat when I ride it. - ps, the 1x is with old 9 speed shifters, using a 9-speed 11-40 cassette from aliexpress (ztto), works perfectly, and the steps between gears are absolutely fine
I recently bought a restored bike with a triple. It comes with a very basic 7 speed freewheel but I think once I put a wheel on it that will fit a 11-34 cassette I'm just gonna stick with it. Really enjoying thumby friction shifting the triple a heck of a lot more than when I was a kid
My old bike came with 5 speed cassette indexed and double chaining friction. Changed that about 20 years ago to triple 28-38-48, works great with just a bit adjustment. And never drops the chain like my newer 1 x bike does.
I knew! I swapped out my Apex crank & chainring to a NX and needed spacers (eBay) to maintain the correct chain alignment to the cassette
I use an Ultegra crankset with 26-42t chainrings, and a chainguard in the outer position, shifter and derailleur are 105 - 5703 10 speed triple and works great
What chainrings that small work with an Ultegra crankset?? Would love a setup like that
@@peterwills735 Ultegra 6603 triple crankset
Outer two positions are 130bcd so minimum is 38T inner is 74bcd so you can go down to 24 teeth
I have run 30-46, 26-39-46 but currently 26-42 - very flexible with the right shifter and mech
Ive found that friction shifters and mtb 2x derailleurs work best and easiest to tune with these wide ratio chainring set ups.
I did not know there was an Ultegra triple with a 74mm bcd. Interesting! I'm using an older Sun Tour XC Pro.
Lots of Retrogrouch vibes and bike tinkering advice here. 👍🚴
Great vid, Russ! A front derailleur doesn’t actually require a cable stop. Until top-pull FDs came along, the vast majority of bottom-pull FDs just had a cable guide under or over the bottom bracket. Even a short section of cable housing can be used as a guide. Just think of the grams you could save, Russ!
Not all frames have cable stops. Some frames don’t have a single cable stop anywhere on the frame. Thus even if the cable is run under the downtube (assuming that the frame even has a downtube) won’t allow you to run a front derailleur without modifications or a special clamp such as what he showed in the video. I will also add that many frames don’t have a single round tube to allow a normal round clamp. Thus requiring a band type clamp, proprietary clamp custom made for that frame or drilling holes in the frame (or welding/brazing cable stops) - this is a common dilemma with mountain bikes and carbon fiber. Most modern carbon fiber mountain bikes don’t allow front derailleur’s to be mounted. Some front derailleurs have an integrated cable stop but they are rare.
There are several front derailleurs available at Universal Cycles. This one will fit most folks' needs that are trying to accomplish what you did: SunRace FD-M300 Front Derailleur - 7/8 Speed. Cheers.
I have 2x 42-22t 11-36 10 speed cassette Scott Sub Cross Tour with 9 speed xt derailleur with tiagra 10 speed shifters, tiagra 2x with 3x whatever front derailleur. Shifts great.
Shimano still makes 2x and 3x in the alivio range with a few ring configurations for MTB but more important, a trekking set with larger rings. They also happen to make those sets in square, octalink and hollow tech. Not the lightest but well priced, built and available. They also still seem to have some Deore floating around but fewer configurations. Shimano considers these in between gear ranges for trekking and places the trekking gear at the mid range of their MTB gear. You can find it in the Alivio and Deore range with a T on the end or beginning of the part number.
I'm seriously considering going back to friction shifting. You set the limit screws and you're basically done with gear adjustments for years. And front derailleur shifting is actually vastly superior with friction compared to indexed gearing; I've never met an indexed front derailleur that doesn't annoy me.
I’ll stick with my single speeds 🤣
If anyone needs some of those chainring spacers and has an old Shimano triple mountain bike crankset in the parts bin, many of them used those spacers. If you have access to a bike co-op, they will have some of those spacers lying around or a cheap vintage triple you can salvage them from. Every set of biopace cranks I’ve taken rings off has these between the large and middle rings.
Love the quirky content, this channel is so refreshing in todays bicycle environment.
Do you have videos dealing specifically with chain-line on 2x?
I still have three 2x bikes, they all work really well as-is. That said, I do like my 1x bikes and would not covert them to 2x. I do look forward to functionally competent 1x making it to the lowest end bikes, as new and casual riders, even some who have ridden bikes for many years, can still struggle with the concept of shifting a 2x (or 3x) drivetrain. Explaining cross chaining and the inverse nature of gear size front to back to perceived effort, can be a challenge.
If you replace the chain you may find that it's not quite long enough . I've done this and come up about 4 links short . {Obviously dependent on your outer ring choice}
Seriously, I agree with that sneaky comment about the “group set of the people”, I cannot stand how out of control pricing is for biking, hence why I went the vintage steel route. BUT the State 4130 all road is the only new bike I have but still isn’t a “down payment on a car” price
I went for a used 2021 trek fx2, ended up being a cheap price for a decent quality new bike. It's a good all-rounder type bike. but yeah you're right pricing is fucking insane for the better stuff
Since I don't own a car I saved the down payment so my expensive bike came about for free.
If one is patient and actually looks around, there are perfectly good, barely used old bikes to be had for cheap or even free. I've been procuring such bikes for decades.
I restore or build em up, ride the hell out of 'em, break 'em or grow bored and give them away.
@@rollinrat4850 Oh yea I agree. I do the same to be honest. Like only $100 buck builds or if you're feeling real fancy, a $200 build XD I just wanted the State Bicycle to review it on my channel since it was getting popular
105 "5800" 11-speed rim-brake mechanical used to be sub $500. It was the "group set of the people". But the new 105 12-speed disc & Di2 is priced out of control! $1886.87? Feh? That's more than I paid for my complete Giant TCR w/105-5800 new.
Russ your over thinking the 2X front, the mid to late 90s Deore triple stuff has super low climbing gears and a great front triple derailleur that works great as a double. With turning the the low screw in so you don't drop the chain inside. There are tons of Shimano Mt triple crankset on ebay
Exactly! The least effort, cheapest and best working method and approach!!!
I don't know whats so confusing here. I had a triple for years and barely used the big ring. Its just optimizing for the gears I used most.
I just rode all the way across BC as offroad as possible on a 28t ring and 51t cassette, about 85 lbs of bike and gear with plus tires. I never really wished that I had faster gearing.
I'm going 2x also, but the opposite direction, taking my 3x MTB and making the large chainring into a bash guard
I have done this repeatedly, fastest cheap accurate method. And for those who move faster, then large middle rings. No reason to reinvent the wheel.
@@Llamabanger Haha, there's a reason alright. But I'm not buying it. Its not what I 'need'. I know better! I boycott what I don't need or don't like. Too bad so many people pay attention to marketing BS.
There's lots of better and logical alternatives.
1x is best used for the gravity-centric riding and cyclocross racing.
I did indeed learn something today...I learned the phrase "knuckle dragging rear derailleur".
I use older mountain group sets on newer frames and they work great especially when I'm working on low end hybirds to bring them back to life and better then stock ...Also with everyone going 1x used front derailers and shifters are not that hard to find
I strongly recommend chainrings by Spécialités T.A. from France. Put together a 38/24 from them. The bigger (they sell it as an intermediate for 3x) has shifting ramps. The 105 derailleur is still on the job. I don't feel any difference to my stock 50/34 in shifting performance.
TA and Stronglight are both old French manufacturers. They both make really nice products. They also both make chainrings to fit lots of BCDs.
They're not cheap, but it excellent quality, long lasting stuff. The silver TAs are very nicely polished!
Sugino is another older manufacturer from Japan. They make really nice cranks and chainrings as well.
Thinking of trying 3x->2x to add a rock ring. Not sure I'd want to run it like that all the time though, guess it depends on how long it takes to swap back and forth.
Great stuff, Russ! As a fellow retro grouch who has made this conversion on half a dozen bikes, I can also add: Peter White sells nice TA Specialities chainrings in virtually every tooth size in the universe, which come with ramps/pins to aid shifting. And Riv sells a 'road' version of the front derailer you got, made by IRD, that is optimized for road chain lines
TA makes great rings! So does another old French company, Stronglight. They all shift great too! They both make chainrings for a whole bunch of BCDs!
I bought one of those TA chainrings. It was expensive. It’s also the nicest chainring that I’ve ever seen.
Peter White is the only shop I know of in the US that imports them.
@@rollinrat4850 Ditto. You can occasionally find them on eBay! Thankfully they tend to last longer than most - I've also had good experience w/ the similar but cheaper Stronglight rings which some sellers sell on eBay and import from the UK.
@@mattdrange4219 Ive got some ancient Stronglight model 93 star Cranks, Coolest looking cranks ever IMO. They're on an old Motobecane Grand Record from the '70s. Bernard Thevenet won the TDF on those cranks! I Don't ride it anymore, I just like looking at the cranks. Check 'em out.
I've also got several Stronglight roller bearing headsets. Awesome headsets that can solve fork shimmy problems. They've lasted as long as my Chris King headset from the '80s. These I do still use on a regular basis. I don't overhaul them often either. All are on the same sets of bearings just like my Chris King stuff too. I dig the good 'old junk'!
For Aussie folk, Ram Cycle Parts have a good selection of chainrings, bolts and spacers. They might ship internationally too, not sure.
it’s possible to hack some road brifters to shift a mtb front derailleur perfectly - at least I have a 105 5600 brifter working fine on a deore front triple . I mounted the cable on the other side of the front derailleur screw, and used a larger washer that I ground a corner into so it rests on the original cable support on the intended side
Some cheap MTBs still run triples I still have a triple on my triban 5 road bike the 30 granny ring is so good I do miss it when on my bling carbon fiber 105 (groupset of the people 🤣🤣) 52 36. My triban is Sora 9 speed and work really well.
Chainring spacers! So much fun lol. Not only do they exist but I just discovered that you also need to get your chainring the right way around (depending on brand) so that they are not recessed and push the ring far enough away. Much blessings to the bike industry 😂
Even if they didn't exist. You need to use a bit of initiative sometimes. I have a Trek FX3. And I put a 1 by system on it. 44 on the front to 11 to 36 on the back 1X9. The problem was I was getting alot of chain drops. It become so annoying. And at times dangerous. It happened to me one time on the Caterham Bypass in London. And thats not a place you ever want to be stuck on a bike you can't pedal. I was lucky I was near my exit when it happened.
So I got washers and using the 5 double ring bolts Started to play around with the positioning of the single front 44 chainring.
I centered it more by about 4mm from where it was SUPPOSED to be. And bingo I've never had a single chain drop since going from 11 to 36.
Sometimes you've got to use your own initiative to get what you want. It's often personal to your particular bike..Just like the right saddle for the individual is..
As someone who grew up with 3x drivetrains, I can understand the 1x craze only in terms of saving weight and greater ground clearance for off-road riding. But 1x generally sucks for low gearing. I mean, there's a good reason why true touring bikes (the kind with chromoly framsets, including chromoly forks) still have 3x drivetrains. As for 2x, it seems a lot has been forgotten or overlooked regarding 3x. I will soon be experimenting with a 2x10 MTB drivetrain (38/24 + 11-36) for winter pedaling in northern New England. In my neck of the woods there are several long, steep hills I wouldn't want to pedal standing up, especially with groceries, books, camping supplies, etc. A part of me still believes in 3x as being just as good as it ever was 🚴♂️
Soma new albion 46×30 compact crankset with 12×30 cassette gives plenty enough low gearing and works flawlessly with the campagnolo record 2× front mech. Works great almost everywhere but could see peeps maybe needing lower gearing for fully loaded touring or mtb-ing. So to all u allroaders out there, your oem front mech will most likely work fine when going to smaller compact chainrings
I still use my original 2008 48/38/28 front chainring in combination with the XT 11-34 rear cassette and Deore derailleur and shifters. It works wonderful with the Marin geometry and I rarely have to come out of the 48 unless I am climbing something really steep. However, I am looking at what happens on my next upgrade and am considering the 46/30 chainring with the 11-36 or 11-40/42 rear cassette. Thinking of comfort and aging going 10 years forward the 46/30 may be a good idea. I see it available with Easton and Shimano.
If ageing is in mind then stick with the 3x
@@mmmbass6068 Its an idea. PS: I see what you meant now. Upgrading to a climbing 3x would do the job in all aspects without adding anything new. As I mature am more concerned with utility, comfort/pleasure, and health.
i hope I live long enough to see the Classified reduction hub become a universal widespread affordable idea that can come on most decent bikes to replace the front derailleur in the future. it's such a cool idea that got me excited to discoverer it as a derailleur replacement that it gives me the urge to learn engineering in order to work on new gearbox designs
I think it is novel but too complex and expensive for mass adoption.
Man you're going retro 60-70s cool. The prehistoric methods for moving the chain in the front is a gas.
I also want to 2x right now I am running a 38-26 x 11-42 I like it so far 👍🤘
I have the same combo on my Fargo. Love it!
Were you using a 1x?
0:41 oooooh shots fired
Back in the 1990s, the bike companies were telling us we needed 3x drive trains. Now they want us to buy 1x drive trains. They talk about 1x gearing covering the gear ratio needed for steep uphills, but the gear ratio for downhills on smooth roads isn't there.
Yes. Even with a 46t cassette, it's not the same range as you have to sacrifice on one end or the other. It's interesting seeing 2x finding utility again.
With a 1x, EVERYDAY typical bike users (who are actually fit) will always be limited by the gearing. You must choose between too low or too high gears.
If I want to be in the wrong gear all the time, I ride one of my singlespeeds!
I love riding mostly dirt in big mountains, but I hate wasting time , gas and loading my car to waste even more time driving to a trail. I'd much rather spend my time pedaling more. I'm fortunate that I live not far from decent trails. Reasonably spaced gears, front derailleurs and friction shifting has never caused me many issues. But I learned how to shift in the '60s!
I have been considering this change. Thanks for explaining the "obstacles"...I'm going to have to use a lever style front derailleur shifter and I wonder which ones are better/more compatible?
I predict in a year you will be converting all your bikes to 3x, where will this insanity end. :-)
Ha! I leave 3x on bikes I don't want stolen, but don't mind that badly if they are.
Ive got 3x on three bikes used hard offroad. I very rarely drop chains and I know how to shift. Rather than 1X, if I want to be in the wrong gear all the time, I ride one of my singlespeeds!
If you only want one gear up front - don't shift! Don't waste your time and leave your poor drivetrain alone you'll miss those gears when their gone. Long live the front derailleur!
As a home mechanic I find this interesting, but as a rider I am not shure I understand your point
An mtb double derailleur can work well. I still haven't tried a Shimano CX 70 set up. The cage on the mtb double is shorter allowing you to get the cage properly close to the large chainring and not touch the chainstays. I've had good luck with Shimano Deore M616.
I've gotten this to shift very well on 24/38-42 chainrings on old school square taper mtb triple cranks. Probably the trickiest part is finding the right width BB spindle to get everything just so. Friction shifters help lots of weird mixed up set ups work well with non standard parts.
I have no idea what works on modern frames with thru axles and wide OLDs. My bikes are very old school. 126-135mm hubs. 10 speed is more than enough gears.
My next experiment will be to try a 20/36 or 38 combo with this derailleur. Then I can use smaller cassettes with closer spacing. I'm Not a fan of wide range 1x cassettes at all.
it's so interesting to watch this when i have the exact opposite mentality. i almost never use the front shifter on my 3x commuter, and i've been riding my 1x mtb so much that when i ride my dads 2x gravel bike, the 2x shifting almost annoys me
For commuting most of us will never be challenged. You will typically get some hills 10 to 20 grade. A couple of hundred metres long at most. And we are cruising up them with our 5 to 10lb rucksacks on. The quads face no real challenge.
If you are bike packing. And moving a total weight in excess of 250lbs. That's when the 2 or 3 by systems come into play. And have their merits. It's horses for courses literally..
I managed to fix the 3x conversion problem by putting a cable tie between a couple of struts on the big chainring, stopping the chain from sitting in-between the chainrings. It shifted pretty good but how long it will last is another question 😂
Would bike upgrades be any fun if we didn't have at least 5 to 10 issues before we finally got it working right?
For me it would! :D
Hardware stores rarely carry spacers made to the machined tolerances found in specialty cycling components. It's worth mentioning, since your chainline would be thrown off by inconsistent spacing, and as you mentioned, the bore will be sized to crank bolt dimensions. 🤓
Clearly. But someone will always say, why did you buy such expensive bike parts when u can buy something that works at Ace.
If you have a problem with the chainline using a MTB mech with a road chainset ... I have had some success using an eccentric shim to offset the front derailer inboard a few millimetres.
Where do you buy them?
@@lastfm4477 SJS cycles in the UK. I think JTEK fabricate them.