Back in the late 80's and early 90's the old Indian dealership in my hometown was still open, by then the old man who owned it and lived across the street didn't really have it open on a daily basis but if someone needed something you could either call him or if you didn't have his phone number you could knock on his door and he'd walk over there and open it up, a friend of mine had a 47 Chief so they knew each other and I'd been in there several times with him. When he was young he raced flat track and hill climbs and while I don't think he was on the factory teams he was affiliated with Indian in some capacity when it came to racing, he had factory race engine's that were still in crates sitting in the place that I'd lay odds are worth a fortune in this day and age, he knew the people that operated Indian well enough that he had one of the bikes that you hear about that were put together after they shut down, read books on Indian or talk to people old enough to know and they'll tell you about bikes that were put together by people who knew management and the owners well enough and were given permission to go into the factory after the production line was shut down and assemble a bike from all the parts sitting around that were there when the line shut down, I guess it was one of those things where after a shift management walked into the place and said "That's it, everyone go home, we're now closed" and as a result the production line was just stopped where it was at and for a while people, guy's like him that had a dealership and a personal relationship with the owners, could go in there and assemble a bike and since the company still existed on paper it'd get a legit title, or manufacturers slip or whatever it took to get your state to title it. In that old dealership was a Chief that was one of those post production bikes that had less than 20 miles on it, I think it was titled as a 53 or 54, I'd heard about this bike for years and the legend around my hometown about it was that it was the very last Indian motorcycle made, well I did find out years later from an Indian collector I was talking to out at Carlisle that probably wasn't true, he said that there's several "last one made" Indians around the country that were actually post production bikes like the one in that old dealership from people like him being allowed to go in the factory and assemble one they could take home, he did say however that even if it's not the very last one made on record it's still worth a mint being a post production bike, especially with it having miles in the teens showing on it. That building that was the dealership was a trip, it was wooden with a wood floor inside and a corrugated tin roof that made it look like a little barn, it was set back off the road a little bit and had the word Indian painted across the roof in the style of the company logo that you could see driving by, I can remember it always being there all the way back to the dawn of my memory circa 68-69, 20 years later in the late 80's when I got my first Harley and got into the biker scene in my area I got to be pals with the guy who had that Chief, the first time he took me there and had the old guy open it up I went inside and couldn't believe some of the things I was looking at, that Chief in pristine condition with an odometer that was in the teens, factory racing engine's in crates and parts hanging on the wall behind the counter like it had been a functional dealership the day before, it was like going back to the early 50's and walking into an Indian dealership. I'd heard in the early 90's that the old guy finally gave up opening the place for people because of his health, he passed away in the late 90's being in his early 90's himself, he'd been racing flat track and hill climbs affiliated with the factory since before the war, I guess his kids inherited the place, lucky them because the biker craze was about at it's height in the late 90's and they probably made a fortune selling off everything that was in it, I'd ask around for a while if anyone knew what happened with that Chief but no one did, probably one of the kids took it home and put it away, there was a few other bikes inside the place when I was in there that belonged to the owner, a V-twin Scout and one of those Triumph imitation B model Scouts that had the 2 cylinder engine made like a Triumph or BSA, but they weren't no miles bikes like that Chief was although they were in nice shape, years back there was a couple of those B models around my hometown that had come from that dealership, there's also a couple Chiefs that were sold out of there that a local guy owned whose kids that were about my age I'd gotten to be friends with, he'd let them take them out occasionally and that's how I met them, those two bikes were actually in a Hollywood movie set in the 40's that was filmed in my area, when the production people were scouting the area they put the word out that they needed vehicles that were 40's and earlier to put on streets for scenes and someone got them hooked up with that guy and both of his wound up in scenes, he's actually in a scene, the clothing people dressed him up in period correct attire and had him ride it past the camera when Robert Mitchum was waiting to cross the road. That old dealership building is still there but to look at it now you'd think it's nothing but an old barn, the word Indian across the roof is long gone, over the year's as I'd drive by it it'd keep fading away little by little, the tin Indian signs that used to be on the front were taken down not long after I heard the guy would never open it again, it's kind of a shame the place didn't get historic landmark status and preserved because walking inside was like walking into 1951 or something.
Thanks, as always, Mark and Kevin. I get so much enjoyment out of these podcasts, and this one is particularly special to me. I remember, when I was a kid, my uncle Tony telling me all about a crazy Honda race bike that had oval pistons (and about the 6 cylinder one that revved to nearly 20 000). We talked about motorcycles every time we got together, and would watch the motorcycle grand prix on a black and white tellie, cheering on Freddie Spencer. He was a maker and tinkerer, and loved motorcycles, and a big influence on me. And just last year I picked up a VFR800, as a talisman to Honda's determination, and my uncle Tony.
Not to mention two-stroke knowledge. Honda/HRC, won the very last 250cc and 500cc two-stroke Grand Prix World Championships before they correctly lobbied the rule makers to ban them.
@@LongWeiner-x9yHonda never will that's the damn problem about it all... They hate 2 strokes... Literally hate two strokes and that's it that's all there is to it...
Another fascinating video. Not only for Kevin's great depth of knowledge but also for his great gift at communicating it in such an articulate fashion. 10/10.
Sigh. The NR bikes will forever be the "best" for me personally, along with Space Shuttles and SR71 Blackbirds. The late 70's and early 80's were my Golden Age of time. Having owned and spent many years and over 100K Km's on my 1982 CX500Turbo, (which alas, was also much maligned by press and public) I absolutely loved the thing. My single favourite motorcycle I've possessed in 50+ years of motorcycling. I am melancholy thinking about how close the NR might have been, with just a little more time. (in addition to the bizarre application of a Turbo to a small push rod valve V-Twin, the CX also had a computer and electronic fuel injection, so for a 1982 release, you know it was being tested for at least a year or two prior, which would have put it right in the NR time period. I always wondered if EFI would have helped with the NR's carb complexity and problems.
~29:20 ; Setting up new Honda CB160s in '65, used a strobe to set the timing. There were several examples that double-imaged the timing marks - there was one set of points and the point cam had two lobes, driven from the camshaft. The point cam wasn't exactly 180 degrees. New phenomenon for this budding Honda mechanic, much like the story he was relating about the Yamaha XS-650 and splitting the difference on setting timing.
Fascinating information. Some of which is over my head, but I did get the general gist of it. I was intrigued at the reality of racing teams sandbagging in order to avoid getting restricted…Another interesting and informative video.Thanks
As izmesamsumg pointed out it was essentially a v8. But, it wasn’t cheating it was trying to build a four stroke that could have the power of a two stroke. The FIM in the late 60’s outlawed anything more than four cylinders for the 500cc class to cut costs to the factories in order to make more manufacturers willing to invest in racing at the top level. It effectively killed the chances of a four stoke engine competing with the multi cylinder two strokes that emerged in the 70’s. Honda wasn’t allowed under the rules to build what was needed to build a competitive V6 or V8 four stroke so they tried to do what they could, it failed, but they tried. Mr Honda hated two stokes.
Honda's oval piston program reminds me of Lockheed's Skunk Works. When you're doing what's never been done before, you need very innovative engineering to deal with the problems that come up. Just a suggestion; It would be nice to have photo inserts of some of the things you're talking about, because for the life of me, I can't picture an NR750 in my mind.
All you have to do is Google it and hit the word images and you'll see thousands of pictures 750 motor the 500 that they raced all about it.. Mr Honda spent 10 years of his life and 10 million dollars and failed miserably... Honda's idea was to make as much horsepower as a two-stroke of the same displacement.. it's a problem of diminishing returns... Even if you can make the same horsepower, a two-stroke will rev up to the horsepower.in approximately half the time and only half the RPMs ... And Play 2 strokes make power every time the Piston moves down... 4 strokes don't make power until the Piston moves up and down two times .. per RPM 2 strokes make twice as many power strokes in the same amount of time that takes four strokes twice as long to do... Plus there's something that I was told in Honda school by the designer Honda Elsinore Hideo "Pops" Yoshimura that two strokes are self supercharging internally by the operation of the piston
Look around… There are hundreds… if not thousands of images and animation available. You sound like some punk kid that has lived their lives having EVERYTHING handed to them. Just a suggestion; DO SOMETHING…!!!
i bought a $35 helicoil kit today and had to sell the financial commitment to myself. Honda throw $500K at a 'suck it and see' component. Not in the same league, i'll get my coat.
They're excellent investments, keep the drill bit, tap and the insertion tool with the kit then one day when you run out of inserts that's all you need to buy. I've been working on motorcycle's both professionally and on the side for quite a long time and have finally collected pretty much every one you'd ever need including the oddball size stuff like for the timing plug hole in Harley engine case's and their pre 60's stuff that had oddball fasteners like ¼" that has a thread pitch that's in between modern standard course and fine thread, finding taps for those holes is fun to, about the only place left nowadays that uses those is the aircraft industry, I 😮😅really lucked out back in 08 and moved next door to a guy that worked at a place for years and retired from it that's a division of United Aircraft that makes landing gear assemblies for all kinds of aircraft including military, he had a couple boxes of those non SAE standard taps and dies he sold to me for $50. Having a complete set of helicoils for just about any fastner you'll find on motorcycle's is so nice, anytime I need one I've got it handy right there and ready to go, that's why I never minded spending $35 to sometimes $50 for the unusual stuff because I knew sooner or later I'd have enough of them that I'd never have to buy one again, I just reach in that drawer of my tool box and pull out whatever I need, it took years to get all of them but it's been a long time since I've needed something I don't have.
I was able to close my eyes listening to Kevin and having read all of his articles, went back to my days owning and riding Norton Combat Commanders, CB750’s, H1’s, H2’s, then the Z1’s! Wow. I alway felt although the NR750 might not having been the racing success they wanted, it was along with the F1 cars of the era the pinnacle of ICE power. Gotta walk in space before you can walk on the moon. My wonder today is, what would Toyota have done had they chosen to step into the narrow market of motorcycles? Would have been a battle royal with Honda, although Toyota was far too conservative business wise to jump into that genre. Thanks to both of you, takes me back to a life and time well spent.
And just think about it Gentleman, the NR750 pipes were 32 into 16 into 8 into 4 into 2 into 1 then back into 2. Can you embrace the thought of routing that mess out under the seat? Thank you 4 a nother great podcast.
I wonder if this engine design could be successful today being built with super precision machining, superior metallurgy, and all the advantages of the past 30 years.
You know, and I think that I can speak for everyone, when will you have a show on the RD-400 and RZ-350 ? I'm ready to hear more about these Brilliant motorcycles.
Hi, I have heard about the Honda water injection before but I seem to remember reading that the system wasn't very good. Do you happen to know what was the main issue that led to it's ban, I mean was it a rules thing or inadequacy like too much temperature inertia or something else? T.I.A.
It should be remembered that the GP regulations limited everyone to a maximum of 4 cylinders so this more or less forced Honda down the 'siamesed piston v8' route to try and achieve the revs they needed to match the 2 strokes. From a purely engineering point of view this solution was absurd.
@@kiwialfa2083 LOL. You're obviously 30 years too young to have read about the start of the NR500 project - why Honda decided on 4 stroke. It was all about relevance to their large bike market. Large 2 strokes had no relevance whatsoever. After a long streak of on-track early-failures, the NR500 looked like a laughing stock, so Honda rushed to develop the NS500, and proved to the world that they could compete with only 3 cylinders against the opponents' 4. Racing credibility restored.
@johncrowley5612 Correct. The root problem was FIM's lack of insight into why the public wants to watch motorcycle racing. It took another 20+ years for FIM to wake up and create rules that allow larger 4 strokes to compete evenly against the 500cc 2 strokes (with a view to quickly squeezing out the latter). Since the late 1970s, Honda had been big in endurance racing (with large bore derivatives of the CB750), so they weren't starting from scratch when the mixed formula named MotoGP was created.
I was at Silverstone when Mick Grant crashed on the first corner and vividly remember the black smoke. We still purchased Honda as one of the better brands of the time.
I really enjoy listening to this podcast as always. It’s the commercials I can’t stand. Female body wash ads in a podcast about the infamous Honda NR 750 oval piston?!?!
I'd forgotten that some people see adverts. I watch YT videos with Firefox + uBlock Origin. Strangely, when I try to watch a YT video with Waterfox + uBlock Origin, it tells me to disable my ad blocker. Me: No!
Topic suggestion: How on earth did Wayne Rainey and Bob Muzzy compete and beat the Honda V4s with an ancient GPz750 in 1983 to take the Superbike crown?
The same way that Muzzy and Eddie Lawson beat the Honda in-line 1025cc bikes in 1981 and 1982. The Honda's had more horsepower, in '82 particularly, but Eddie and Wayne were just that good. Credit to Muzzy too, but I give the edge to the riders. I knew many of the Honda team mechanics from that period, though that was a few years after. Those guys worked hard and had the biggest budget. A great group of guys, really good at what they did. Yet, that lean, green machine just had the edge on the riding talent. Mike Baldwin came close, but I think he put most of his effort into the Formula 1 class and had a bit less leftover in Superbike. For Lawson it was the other way around.
Since yer pushing the merch at the end of the podcast, I'm going to repeat myself by asking for re-issue of the Kevin Cameron t-shirts. Heck, I'll even throw ya a possible new take on it: "Another friend of Kevin C.". Not sure how the folks at AA would feel about it, but I know that Kevin and his teachings (explanations/insights/your-term-here) are important to me.
Mark thank you for archiving Kevin's expertise...In my own opinion the oval piston experiment was flawed by trying to do too much...Chassis, wheels, suspension....If they would have had focus on the oval ONLY...It might have been different.
I believe NR500 tickover was about 12k. Mick Grant said starting it was simple (not easy): put it in 2nd gear, pull in the clutch, run along side it and when you reach 70 miles per hour, jump on and release the clutch. By the by, Niall Mac has an oval piston 750 in his garage
Regarding Honda's spectacular run of "crazy" "out there" technical tour de forces in their motorcycles in the 60's/70's, I remember reading somewhere several decades ago that at Honda at that time they put their new/young Engineers in the motorcycle division and kind of turned them loose. Honda's thinking was that they wanted their most senior and best Engineers building their fledging car industry but thought the motorcycle division was not as important to the company but would be a good training ground for the new Engineers.
Sad thing about the NR750 is it wasn’t a sport bike. It was more of a sport touring bike. Even with the exotic engine tech it would get blown off by much cheaper models from Kawasaki and Suzuki. I saw one on display at the US Grand Prix and it was very pretty but it wasn’t worth the money performance wise.
It wasn't ever meant to be a sports bike. Look at it as more of a proof of concept bike. The NR500 racing bike had already failed miserably and in my opinion the NR750 was just Honda stubbornly plowing on to retro-actively prove that the concept would work. The NR750 simply suffered from the same problem the NR500 did: lack of power. That oval piston idea might have looked good on paper, but in reality it failed to live up to its promise.
@@kiwialfa2083 I don't know about that. Honda back then was always into doing what hadn't been done before, so I still think they really wanted to prove the concept worked. What they forgot was that the far more complex setup added a lot of moving weight and therefore the engine didn't perform as expected. It could also be that in order to even make it work, they went with a really detuned version, as it would have been a disaster if it proved to be unreliable. But it sure looks like Honda bit of more than they could chew with this concept.
@@tjroelsma if it was a viable concept that was the way forward, oval pistons would be everywhere. The fact that they aren't, is proof the concept was a dead-end. Doing something because you can is art, engineering something that doesn't provide the best solution is a fail.
@@kiwialfa2083 Like I said: the concept might have looked viable on paper and Honda's engineers had pulled off quite some feats by then, so they might have been overconfident that they could pull this one off as well. The fact that there are a limited number of bikes out there proves that they DID succeed. In my opinion the added complexity and weight is what killed off this oval piston engine, not that it wasn't a viable concept. The problems they encountered on the way (and that they WERE able to solve), caused the engine to have very specific parts, which meant that the engine couldn't be built in an automated process. It also caused the bikes to be ludicrously expensive to build, as so many of these parts only fit that specific engine, so in an economic sense the concept wasn't viable. From a technical point of view the engine was a modest success: Honda demonstrated that it could be built, but it never came even close to Honda's expectations in performance. The NS500 race bikes kind of told that story: too heavy and underpowered.
One question for Kevin. Was Reading Sportsbike Manual again, and the ONE question that hit me was : How in the HELL did you get access to the Honda 250/6 cylinder block to even photograph it??
I rented a VFR800 on the Big Island of Hawaii. I loved it so much I was tempted to sell my Aprilia. Similar feeling bike, but none of the Italian headaches.
Hi Guys! The NR500 was really a V8... yes, think about it. FIM screwed things up when they had a massive rule change that killed off some really awesome bikes like the 125 5-cylinder, 250 6-cyl Honda road racers, (and Yam square 4 250) FIM said the 500cc is a maximum of 4-cylinders; thus the idea of the NS500
The relative stagnation in motorcycle engine and design exploration is the same thing that's turned the entire automotive world into a crackerbox "me too" inline-4 dominated plaid-fest: BUREAUCRATIC REGULATION.
Hi, Thanks. Yamaha had a saying...We don't win races to build great motorcycles, we build great motorcycle to win races... (I think that is correct) I glad Honda did all that, were all better for it. I have too good of a memory to think highly of Honda!
Hey fellas... Different subject......I'm trying to "envision" the Ducati Twin pulse firing order.... With pistons on the same side sharing a crankpin, and the crankpins offset 70°, then the only way you get 0°-90°-290°-380° , is. that an opposite-side piston (L-side-R-side) follows the first piston's firing...
I’m not knowledgeable on this subject and trying to understand can someone answer my questions like why did Honda do this project if they had the rc30 and the rc 30 and rc 45 didn’t have oval pistons right also why did they try to do the oval pistons to stay 4 stroke if the rc 30 was 4 stroke already and ran well are they for different race types or something someone please educate me so I can understand thanks
Triumph made the 1st oval piston in the early 1900s.......I don't know if this is a fun fact or it proves that smoking joints was a popular past time in the design room
@@svgs650r oh yes I’ve always been a huge fan of this design and engineering Avantgarde thinking by the Honda team really thinking outside the box!! The NR 500 had flat sided pistons whereas the 750 has a gentle curve in there’s evidence I would suggest that Honda did have trouble sealing straight rings early on in testing with the 500 I believe they had some Conrod issues but Honda bring who they r sorted that out
I am curious whether we will be listening to these intriguing and insightful conversations when electric and other "green" alternatives rule the day????
Only the very early ones. 16t front sprocket with old chain technology was what led to the breakages and crank case damage many suffered. Stick to a rivet link chain and a 17t front sprocket problem gone.
@@markpavletich747 If your going to re-gear your bike , 520 conversion chain on my VFR 800 I went up 2 teeth on rear sprocket instead of going down on front like some do.
Correct, 916 designer Massimo Tamburini openly admitted he took inspiration from the Honda NR750. Under seat exhaust, single sided swingarm and similar twin headlights.
Honda ... was I have a feeling why marques and others are fleeing Honda ,,, the factory has its head up its arse I in japan and have dealing with them ( and my missus worked for them )
My recollection of the NR project is not as charitable as Mark's & Kevin's. I believe this endeavor was promulgated by Honda's stubborn arrogance & unwillingness to accept the obvious impossibility of it's success. They are an engineering company & it was plain to anyone that this motor was never going to rev to 22,000, make 130hp & have a usable powerband. To compound their hubris & contradiction of EVERY tenant of successful racing they added to the monumental challenge of developing this (overly) complex engine a ridiculous frame, wheels, tires etc. I doubt rider input was ever considered. This project never was about winning a WC in 3 years, just indulging corporate egos.
Longitudinal crank shaft motorcycles (Gold Wing, Old BMW, Moto Guzzi) torque must play havoc with the bike stability. Is it wheel inertia that holds the bike up when cranking the throttle? a transverse crank can do wheelies.. why can a Longitudinal crank do a Sideways Slide?
There's no wheel inertia holding it up when you're sitting at a stoplight and you blip the throttle believe me, the first time you do that it's startling, it won't exactly rip one out from underneath you and flop it on it's side but it's definitely something you need to expect to happen when you quickly give it a shot of throttle from an idle, as much as I'd heard BMW and Moto Guzzi riders riders talk about it the first time I went to go for a ride on a BMW a friend of mine had just bought I completely forgot about that and when I smacked it on it's ass before I pulled out when I was still sitting there in neutral I surprised myself pretty good forgetting to expect it, I must have developed quite a look on my face because my buddy was laughing at me pretty good, I'll bet the handles threw to the right 3 or 4 inches when I did it, they weren't ripped out of my hands but I still didn't have my arms braced for it in expectation of it happening, yea if you're not thinking about it the first time you do that on one of those bikes it'll generate a memory you'll never forget.
The goldwing had a counter rotating flywheel/clutch and final drive vs the crankshaft that balanced it out and reduced the driveshaft lift and quirkyness as a bonus that most shaft drive bikes have ... its a brilliant design on hondas part , smooth as silk, and incurs no stability problems to the bike at all ... most people dont know this fact
The Chain Home system was not that effective, advanced or the hero of detecting incoming German planes during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, the real heroes of early detection was the Coast Watcher's and the people in what was called The Filter Room at Bentley Priory, they sorted through all the information that came in from the radar operators and Coast Watcher's and determined what was relevant and what wasn't. Chain Home was so primitive that before the war a German spy dirigible was sent on a cloudy day when they knew it wouldn't be seen on an electronic surveillance mission to investigate the strange towers being built on England's coast, they believed the towers were part of an early warning radar system but wanted to confirm it, one the first day when they detected it's signal it was so weak and poor they initially thought their equipment was defective or they were catching radio waves that were bouncing off clouds or something was giving them interference, they spent some time checking everything out about their equipment, after thoroughly checking it and finally accepting that their equipment was fine they accepted that the signal was indeed from the towers and pending it being defective doubted it was part of an early warning system because of it's extremely low quality, their findings led them to believe it wasn't a part of an early warning system and most likely was part of a weather forecasting system, that was the limit for the intelligence they could gather on it because the next day the system was switched off, they presumed that was because the British collected enough information for an extended weather forecast, in reality it was switched off because it was broken and technicians were trying to fix it, after that the weather cleared up and they didn't have the necessary cover to fly another electronic surveillance mission, meanwhile the Germans had been building far more advanced radar systems even before the war, namely Freda and Wurtzburg (I'm sure i spelled them wrong, don't really care), and no, contrary to the popular belief with some people those weren't systems based on captured Britain equipment in France after Dunkirk, they were developed entirely by them, what the British did that was right was using radar as an early warning system albeit that their Chain Home system wasn't that good they saw the importance of an early warning system, the Germans being slow to warm up to that concept developed their systems for offensive uses, gun ranging and guiding aircraft like bombers to their destination and even tell them when to release their bombs, technically they were the first to "radar bomb" but their way of doing it was vastly inferior to the later developed British bombing radar that was actually inside a bomber scanning the ground looking for a large return that would indicate being over the bomb release point, once adapted to early warning the German systems performed much better than Chain Home and is why later on they could have 250+ fighter's in the air from different locations all in the same place at once and at altitude and in front of them to intercept Allied bombers that were inbound, even after having been driven inland from the French coast where they could visually see Allied bombers forming up like the English Coast Watcher's could watch them forming up over their air bases in France near it's coast when they were launching raids against England early on. For a good read about the truth of Chain Home, the German spy mission to investigate the strange towers being built on the English coast, the Germans development of radar and both their uses in the war Google and download the pdf titled "Deflating The Myth of British RADAR Superiority and Chain Home During WW2" that's not the exact title but it'll get you there, it was a paper written by a Major for the US War College, it's very interesting and insightful.
Here we go again: NO, it was NOT a V4, it was a V8!!! This was done to increase the revs hence to increase the output, and to circumvent the rulebook they 'interconnected' the pistons so as to create four cylinders, albeit oval in shape. What's so difficult to understand???? It was cheating, a thing Honda is well known for..... sure, technically nice but cheating nonetheless!
The depth of Kevin's knowledge is just astonishing.
😅 artificial intelligence sucks... I 🤖Guarantee it
I've been a fan forever.
A dealer here in Denver ( Fay Myers) has a zero miles NR 750 and a new Rc213 also zero miles . Just standing and looking them over is a great time.
Back in the late 80's and early 90's the old Indian dealership in my hometown was still open, by then the old man who owned it and lived across the street didn't really have it open on a daily basis but if someone needed something you could either call him or if you didn't have his phone number you could knock on his door and he'd walk over there and open it up, a friend of mine had a 47 Chief so they knew each other and I'd been in there several times with him.
When he was young he raced flat track and hill climbs and while I don't think he was on the factory teams he was affiliated with Indian in some capacity when it came to racing, he had factory race engine's that were still in crates sitting in the place that I'd lay odds are worth a fortune in this day and age, he knew the people that operated Indian well enough that he had one of the bikes that you hear about that were put together after they shut down, read books on Indian or talk to people old enough to know and they'll tell you about bikes that were put together by people who knew management and the owners well enough and were given permission to go into the factory after the production line was shut down and assemble a bike from all the parts sitting around that were there when the line shut down, I guess it was one of those things where after a shift management walked into the place and said "That's it, everyone go home, we're now closed" and as a result the production line was just stopped where it was at and for a while people, guy's like him that had a dealership and a personal relationship with the owners, could go in there and assemble a bike and since the company still existed on paper it'd get a legit title, or manufacturers slip or whatever it took to get your state to title it.
In that old dealership was a Chief that was one of those post production bikes that had less than 20 miles on it, I think it was titled as a 53 or 54, I'd heard about this bike for years and the legend around my hometown about it was that it was the very last Indian motorcycle made, well I did find out years later from an Indian collector I was talking to out at Carlisle that probably wasn't true, he said that there's several "last one made" Indians around the country that were actually post production bikes like the one in that old dealership from people like him being allowed to go in the factory and assemble one they could take home, he did say however that even if it's not the very last one made on record it's still worth a mint being a post production bike, especially with it having miles in the teens showing on it.
That building that was the dealership was a trip, it was wooden with a wood floor inside and a corrugated tin roof that made it look like a little barn, it was set back off the road a little bit and had the word Indian painted across the roof in the style of the company logo that you could see driving by, I can remember it always being there all the way back to the dawn of my memory circa 68-69, 20 years later in the late 80's when I got my first Harley and got into the biker scene in my area I got to be pals with the guy who had that Chief, the first time he took me there and had the old guy open it up I went inside and couldn't believe some of the things I was looking at, that Chief in pristine condition with an odometer that was in the teens, factory racing engine's in crates and parts hanging on the wall behind the counter like it had been a functional dealership the day before, it was like going back to the early 50's and walking into an Indian dealership.
I'd heard in the early 90's that the old guy finally gave up opening the place for people because of his health, he passed away in the late 90's being in his early 90's himself, he'd been racing flat track and hill climbs affiliated with the factory since before the war, I guess his kids inherited the place, lucky them because the biker craze was about at it's height in the late 90's and they probably made a fortune selling off everything that was in it, I'd ask around for a while if anyone knew what happened with that Chief but no one did, probably one of the kids took it home and put it away, there was a few other bikes inside the place when I was in there that belonged to the owner, a V-twin Scout and one of those Triumph imitation B model Scouts that had the 2 cylinder engine made like a Triumph or BSA, but they weren't no miles bikes like that Chief was although they were in nice shape, years back there was a couple of those B models around my hometown that had come from that dealership, there's also a couple Chiefs that were sold out of there that a local guy owned whose kids that were about my age I'd gotten to be friends with, he'd let them take them out occasionally and that's how I met them, those two bikes were actually in a Hollywood movie set in the 40's that was filmed in my area, when the production people were scouting the area they put the word out that they needed vehicles that were 40's and earlier to put on streets for scenes and someone got them hooked up with that guy and both of his wound up in scenes, he's actually in a scene, the clothing people dressed him up in period correct attire and had him ride it past the camera when Robert Mitchum was waiting to cross the road.
That old dealership building is still there but to look at it now you'd think it's nothing but an old barn, the word Indian across the roof is long gone, over the year's as I'd drive by it it'd keep fading away little by little, the tin Indian signs that used to be on the front were taken down not long after I heard the guy would never open it again, it's kind of a shame the place didn't get historic landmark status and preserved because walking inside was like walking into 1951 or something.
Guess I'll head down there
I might have a business trip this fall that will have me passing through Denver. Might have to pay that dealer a visit. Thanks for posting that.
If I win Powerball, that dealer will be one of my first stops 😊
Thanks, as always, Mark and Kevin. I get so much enjoyment out of these podcasts, and this one is particularly special to me. I remember, when I was a kid, my uncle Tony telling me all about a crazy Honda race bike that had oval pistons (and about the 6 cylinder one that revved to nearly 20 000). We talked about motorcycles every time we got together, and would watch the motorcycle grand prix on a black and white tellie, cheering on Freddie Spencer. He was a maker and tinkerer, and loved motorcycles, and a big influence on me. And just last year I picked up a VFR800, as a talisman to Honda's determination, and my uncle Tony.
I have a little bit of NR750 with me when I go for a ride. The NR and Blackbird share the same mirrors 😎😆.
Honda has forgotten more 4-stroke technology the most companies have learned.
😂 isn't it crazy that Honda decided.... it had done enough ass whipping in formula 1, to move along...🏁
Not to mention two-stroke knowledge.
Honda/HRC, won the very last 250cc and 500cc two-stroke Grand Prix World Championships before they correctly lobbied the rule makers to ban them.
@@YouCantSawSawdust not correctly
Eco tards suck
They should try remembering some of it
@@LongWeiner-x9yHonda never will that's the damn problem about it all... They hate 2 strokes... Literally hate two strokes and that's it that's all there is to it...
Another fascinating video. Not only for Kevin's great depth of knowledge but also for his great gift at communicating it in such an articulate fashion. 10/10.
Sigh. The NR bikes will forever be the "best" for me personally, along with Space Shuttles and SR71 Blackbirds. The late 70's and early 80's were my Golden Age of time. Having owned and spent many years and over 100K Km's on my 1982 CX500Turbo, (which alas, was also much maligned by press and public) I absolutely loved the thing. My single favourite motorcycle I've possessed in 50+ years of motorcycling. I am melancholy thinking about how close the NR might have been, with just a little more time. (in addition to the bizarre application of a Turbo to a small push rod valve V-Twin, the CX also had a computer and electronic fuel injection, so for a 1982 release, you know it was being tested for at least a year or two prior, which would have put it right in the NR time period. I always wondered if EFI would have helped with the NR's carb complexity and problems.
These 'discussions' are like a glass of fine wine to any dedicated petrol head. Here's to any more. THX.
~29:20 ; Setting up new Honda CB160s in '65, used a strobe to set the timing. There were several examples that double-imaged the timing marks - there was one set of points and the point cam had two lobes, driven from the camshaft. The point cam wasn't exactly 180 degrees. New phenomenon for this budding Honda mechanic, much like the story he was relating about the Yamaha XS-650 and splitting the difference on setting timing.
I started riding in 1970 , on honda z50 ..... Been riding honda ever since , 54yrs ....not one year without a motorcycle or three 👍
Fascinating information. Some of which is over my head, but I did get the general gist of it. I was intrigued at the reality of racing teams sandbagging in order to avoid getting restricted…Another interesting and informative video.Thanks
Thanks, remembering is living guys, cheers.
Thanks again guys for the Fantastic video you guys are great and I love listening to you keep up the good work
As izmesamsumg pointed out it was essentially a v8. But, it wasn’t cheating it was trying to build a four stroke that could have the power of a two stroke. The FIM in the late 60’s outlawed anything more than four cylinders for the 500cc class to cut costs to the factories in order to make more manufacturers willing to invest in racing at the top level. It effectively killed the chances of a four stoke engine competing with the multi cylinder two strokes that emerged in the 70’s. Honda wasn’t allowed under the rules to build what was needed to build a competitive V6 or V8 four stroke so they tried to do what they could, it failed, but they tried. Mr Honda hated two stokes.
Honda's oval piston program reminds me of Lockheed's Skunk Works. When you're doing what's never been done before, you need very innovative engineering to deal with the problems that come up.
Just a suggestion; It would be nice to have photo inserts of some of the things you're talking about, because for the life of me, I can't picture an NR750 in my mind.
All you have to do is Google it and hit the word images and you'll see thousands of pictures 750 motor the 500 that they raced all about it.. Mr Honda spent 10 years of his life and 10 million dollars and failed miserably... Honda's idea was to make as much horsepower as a two-stroke of the same displacement.. it's a problem of diminishing returns... Even if you can make the same horsepower, a two-stroke will rev up to the horsepower.in approximately half the time and only half the RPMs ... And Play 2 strokes make power every time the Piston moves down... 4 strokes don't make power until the Piston moves up and down two times .. per RPM 2 strokes make twice as many power strokes in the same amount of time that takes four strokes twice as long to do... Plus there's something that I was told in Honda school by the designer Honda Elsinore Hideo "Pops" Yoshimura that two strokes are self supercharging internally by the operation of the piston
Look around… There are hundreds… if not thousands of images and animation available. You sound like some punk kid that has lived their lives having EVERYTHING handed to them. Just a suggestion; DO SOMETHING…!!!
It was red and had a titanium sputtered iridescent windscreen .
i bought a $35 helicoil kit today and had to sell the financial commitment to myself. Honda throw $500K at a 'suck it and see' component.
Not in the same league, i'll get my coat.
They're excellent investments, keep the drill bit, tap and the insertion tool with the kit then one day when you run out of inserts that's all you need to buy.
I've been working on motorcycle's both professionally and on the side for quite a long time and have finally collected pretty much every one you'd ever need including the oddball size stuff like for the timing plug hole in Harley engine case's and their pre 60's stuff that had oddball fasteners like ¼" that has a thread pitch that's in between modern standard course and fine thread, finding taps for those holes is fun to, about the only place left nowadays that uses those is the aircraft industry, I 😮😅really lucked out back in 08 and moved next door to a guy that worked at a place for years and retired from it that's a division of United Aircraft that makes landing gear assemblies for all kinds of aircraft including military, he had a couple boxes of those non SAE standard taps and dies he sold to me for $50.
Having a complete set of helicoils for just about any fastner you'll find on motorcycle's is so nice, anytime I need one I've got it handy right there and ready to go, that's why I never minded spending $35 to sometimes $50 for the unusual stuff because I knew sooner or later I'd have enough of them that I'd never have to buy one again, I just reach in that drawer of my tool box and pull out whatever I need, it took years to get all of them but it's been a long time since I've needed something I don't have.
I was able to close my eyes listening to Kevin and having read all of his articles, went back to my days owning and riding Norton Combat Commanders, CB750’s, H1’s, H2’s, then the Z1’s! Wow. I alway felt although the NR750 might not having been the racing success they wanted, it was along with the F1 cars of
the era the pinnacle of ICE power. Gotta walk in space before you can walk on the moon. My wonder today is, what would Toyota have done had they chosen to step into the narrow market of motorcycles? Would have been a battle royal with Honda, although Toyota was far too conservative business wise to jump into that genre. Thanks to both of you, takes me back to a life and time well spent.
And just think about it Gentleman, the NR750 pipes were 32 into 16 into 8 into 4 into 2 into 1 then back into 2. Can you embrace the thought of routing that mess out under the seat? Thank you 4 a nother great podcast.
Amazing and entertaining - keep up the good work
Great video !!!!! "Rules" stifle innovation ................................
Always enjoy listening to you Muppets.😊
Such a crazy idea for a mass production bike
@@duster34075 at 300 units, reputedly hand assembled by the race technicians at HRC, may be "mass-produced" is a bit of a stretch.
No, that was the Rune.
I wonder if this engine design could be successful today being built with super precision machining, superior metallurgy, and all the advantages of the past 30 years.
40 years, actually. 😅 After a certain age, it's difficult to count the decades.
@@brianvogt8125 Still, do you think the design could be made to successfully run in 2024?
You know, and I think that I can speak for everyone, when will you have a show on the RD-400 and RZ-350 ? I'm ready to hear more about these Brilliant motorcycles.
Hi, I have heard about the Honda water injection before but I seem to remember reading that the system wasn't very good. Do you happen to know what was the main issue that led to it's ban, I mean was it a rules thing or inadequacy like too much temperature inertia or something else? T.I.A.
It should be remembered that the GP regulations limited everyone to a maximum of 4 cylinders so this more or less forced Honda down the 'siamesed piston v8' route to try and achieve the revs they needed to match the 2 strokes. From a purely engineering point of view this solution was absurd.
Well, no it didn't. They could have built a 4-cylinder two-stroke and won... Oh wait
Yeah , but would they have bothered if they had pneumatic valve springs ,,, ?
Absurd and genius at the same time.
@@kiwialfa2083 LOL. You're obviously 30 years too young to have read about the start of the NR500 project - why Honda decided on 4 stroke. It was all about relevance to their large bike market. Large 2 strokes had no relevance whatsoever. After a long streak of on-track early-failures, the NR500 looked like a laughing stock, so Honda rushed to develop the NS500, and proved to the world that they could compete with only 3 cylinders against the opponents' 4. Racing credibility restored.
@johncrowley5612 Correct. The root problem was FIM's lack of insight into why the public wants to watch motorcycle racing. It took another 20+ years for FIM to wake up and create rules that allow larger 4 strokes to compete evenly against the 500cc 2 strokes (with a view to quickly squeezing out the latter). Since the late 1970s, Honda had been big in endurance racing (with large bore derivatives of the CB750), so they weren't starting from scratch when the mixed formula named MotoGP was created.
I have loved my Honda V4s that I have owned, V65 Magna, VFR800fi 5th gen, currently CTX1300.
I was at Silverstone when Mick Grant crashed on the first corner and vividly remember the black smoke. We still purchased Honda as one of the better brands of the time.
Please do one on the "Sound of Engines" like y'all pontificated upon at the very end.
Holy crap my recent customer has one of these in his collection. Hello Mr Belkin!
I really enjoy listening to this podcast as always. It’s the commercials I can’t stand. Female body wash ads in a podcast about the infamous Honda NR 750 oval piston?!?!
I’ve not seen a single ad yet. Not one.
I'd forgotten that some people see adverts. I watch YT videos with Firefox + uBlock Origin.
Strangely, when I try to watch a YT video with Waterfox + uBlock Origin, it tells me to disable my ad blocker. Me: No!
Topic suggestion:
How on earth did Wayne Rainey and Bob Muzzy compete and beat the Honda V4s with an ancient GPz750 in 1983 to take the Superbike crown?
The same way that Muzzy and Eddie Lawson beat the Honda in-line 1025cc bikes in 1981 and 1982. The Honda's had more horsepower, in '82 particularly, but Eddie and Wayne were just that good. Credit to Muzzy too, but I give the edge to the riders. I knew many of the Honda team mechanics from that period, though that was a few years after. Those guys worked hard and had the biggest budget. A great group of guys, really good at what they did. Yet, that lean, green machine just had the edge on the riding talent. Mike Baldwin came close, but I think he put most of his effort into the Formula 1 class and had a bit less leftover in Superbike. For Lawson it was the other way around.
Since yer pushing the merch at the end of the podcast, I'm going to repeat myself by asking for re-issue of the Kevin Cameron t-shirts. Heck, I'll even throw ya a possible new take on it: "Another friend of Kevin C.". Not sure how the folks at AA would feel about it, but I know that Kevin and his teachings (explanations/insights/your-term-here) are important to me.
Always entertaining.
Mark thank you for archiving Kevin's expertise...In my own opinion the oval piston experiment was flawed by trying to do too much...Chassis, wheels, suspension....If they would have had focus on the oval ONLY...It might have been different.
This man knows all. ALL!!!
I believe NR500 tickover was about 12k. Mick Grant said starting it was simple (not easy): put it in 2nd gear, pull in the clutch, run along side it and when you reach 70 miles per hour, jump on and release the clutch. By the by, Niall Mac has an oval piston 750 in his garage
guys,do you think pmeumatic valves could they "fix" the NR 500?
Regarding Honda's spectacular run of "crazy" "out there" technical tour de forces in their motorcycles in the 60's/70's, I remember reading somewhere several decades ago that at Honda at that time they put their new/young Engineers in the motorcycle division and kind of turned them loose. Honda's thinking was that they wanted their most senior and best Engineers building their fledging car industry but thought the motorcycle division was not as important to the company but would be a good training ground for the new Engineers.
The only 2 fast v4 750 Hondas was Wayne and Fred’s factory bikes if memory serves me right😮
Sad thing about the NR750 is it wasn’t a sport bike. It was more of a sport touring bike. Even with the exotic engine tech it would get blown off by much cheaper models from Kawasaki and Suzuki. I saw one on display at the US Grand Prix and it was very pretty but it wasn’t worth the money performance wise.
It wasn't ever meant to be a sports bike. Look at it as more of a proof of concept bike.
The NR500 racing bike had already failed miserably and in my opinion the NR750 was just Honda stubbornly plowing on to retro-actively prove that the concept would work. The NR750 simply suffered from the same problem the NR500 did: lack of power. That oval piston idea might have looked good on paper, but in reality it failed to live up to its promise.
@@tjroelsma I'd call it more of a face saving exercise than a proof of concept....
@@kiwialfa2083 I don't know about that. Honda back then was always into doing what hadn't been done before, so I still think they really wanted to prove the concept worked. What they forgot was that the far more complex setup added a lot of moving weight and therefore the engine didn't perform as expected. It could also be that in order to even make it work, they went with a really detuned version, as it would have been a disaster if it proved to be unreliable.
But it sure looks like Honda bit of more than they could chew with this concept.
@@tjroelsma if it was a viable concept that was the way forward, oval pistons would be everywhere. The fact that they aren't, is proof the concept was a dead-end. Doing something because you can is art, engineering something that doesn't provide the best solution is a fail.
@@kiwialfa2083 Like I said: the concept might have looked viable on paper and Honda's engineers had pulled off quite some feats by then, so they might have been overconfident that they could pull this one off as well. The fact that there are a limited number of bikes out there proves that they DID succeed.
In my opinion the added complexity and weight is what killed off this oval piston engine, not that it wasn't a viable concept. The problems they encountered on the way (and that they WERE able to solve), caused the engine to have very specific parts, which meant that the engine couldn't be built in an automated process. It also caused the bikes to be ludicrously expensive to build, as so many of these parts only fit that specific engine, so in an economic sense the concept wasn't viable. From a technical point of view the engine was a modest success: Honda demonstrated that it could be built, but it never came even close to Honda's expectations in performance. The NS500 race bikes kind of told that story: too heavy and underpowered.
have a 92 nr 750 and zero failures yet. not daily rider but 18,000 on it
One question for Kevin. Was Reading Sportsbike Manual again, and the ONE question that hit me was : How in the HELL did you get access to the Honda 250/6 cylinder block to even photograph it??
VFR!!
I rented a VFR800 on the Big Island of Hawaii. I loved it so much I was tempted to sell my Aprilia. Similar feeling bike, but none of the Italian headaches.
Depends what country.. here in NZ.. vf##r
Do you think if Honda allowed to build a V8 it should have been faster I mean with round pistons .amazing video so interesting .thanks
Yes
I had a picture of Soichiro Honda on my garage door. why him my friends would ask. I said, if not for him, we would be riding sportsters in the woods.
Hi Guys! The NR500 was really a V8... yes, think about it. FIM screwed things up when they had a massive rule change that killed off some really awesome bikes like the 125 5-cylinder, 250 6-cyl Honda road racers, (and Yam square 4 250) FIM said the 500cc is a maximum of 4-cylinders; thus the idea of the NS500
Bell labs did not get the transistor that way. look up Lt Colonel Corsa and the day after Roswell
what 3 bikes in your stable must have ? keepers ? must know!
The relative stagnation in motorcycle engine and design exploration is the same thing that's turned the entire automotive world into a crackerbox "me too" inline-4 dominated plaid-fest: BUREAUCRATIC REGULATION.
Hi, Thanks. Yamaha had a saying...We don't win races to build great motorcycles, we build great motorcycle to win races... (I think that is correct) I glad Honda did all that, were all better for it. I have too good of a memory to think highly of Honda!
Hey fellas...
Different subject......I'm trying to "envision" the Ducati Twin pulse firing order....
With pistons on the same side sharing a crankpin, and the crankpins offset 70°, then the only way you get 0°-90°-290°-380° , is. that an opposite-side piston (L-side-R-side) follows the first piston's firing...
Please… Sit back down. We’ll call on you when we get to the end… given time.
I’m not knowledgeable on this subject and trying to understand can someone answer my questions like why did Honda do this project if they had the rc30 and the rc 30 and rc 45 didn’t have oval pistons right also why did they try to do the oval pistons to stay 4 stroke if the rc 30 was 4 stroke already and ran well are they for different race types or something someone please educate me so I can understand thanks
Triumph made the 1st oval piston in the early 1900s.......I don't know if this is a fun fact or it proves that smoking joints was a popular past time in the design room
I'd buy that Never Ready for a dollar, if only ;-)
Those "rings" Goddamn!
Spam cans 😂
@@karlvanboxel561 Try engineering masterpieces!
Anyone can machine an oval piston, the rings...yeah, not so much!
@@svgs650r oh yes I’ve always been a huge fan of this design and engineering Avantgarde thinking by the Honda team really thinking outside the box!! The NR 500 had flat sided pistons whereas the 750 has a gentle curve in there’s evidence I would suggest that Honda did have trouble sealing straight rings early on in testing with the 500 I believe they had some Conrod issues but Honda bring who they r sorted that out
I am curious whether we will be listening to these intriguing and insightful conversations when electric and other "green" alternatives rule the day????
Since were talking about Honda's, why are SOHC CB750's notorious for breaking chains??
Only the very early ones. 16t front sprocket with old chain technology was what led to the breakages and crank case damage many suffered. Stick to a rivet link chain and a 17t front sprocket problem gone.
@markpavletich747 The 16 tooth sprocket was too small and the chain flew off breaking the engine case?
@@markpavletich747 If your going to re-gear your bike , 520 conversion chain on my VFR 800 I went up 2 teeth on rear sprocket instead of going down on front like some do.
Manual chain tensioner not adjusted regularly or adjusted improperly
@@joelbrittenour8197he"s talking about the cam chain
Honda pockets are deep!
💡All DNF's are "ignition troubles."💡 If the connecting rod snaps and flies through the cases, the engine DOES stop making spark, so.... 😂
Ducati's nightmare :"The beautyfullIest bike in the world" was copied off the NR750
Correct, 916 designer Massimo Tamburini openly admitted he took inspiration from the Honda NR750. Under seat exhaust, single sided swingarm and similar twin headlights.
Honda’s moon shot, indeed
It is "the temple of speed "
What is…?
@@macmclemore Monza
C B argh argh argh matey!!
Honda ... was I have a feeling why marques and others are fleeing Honda ,,, the factory has its head up its arse I in japan and have dealing with them ( and my missus worked for them )
Nice paperweights
😂 I'm going to go to my Honda dealer to order a oval piston for my desktop...
They have been NLA, sold out, for decades.
My recollection of the NR project is not as charitable as Mark's & Kevin's. I believe this endeavor was promulgated by Honda's stubborn arrogance & unwillingness to accept the obvious impossibility of it's success.
They are an engineering company & it was plain to anyone that this motor was never going to rev to 22,000, make 130hp & have a usable powerband.
To compound their hubris & contradiction of EVERY tenant of successful racing they added to the monumental challenge of developing this (overly) complex engine a ridiculous frame, wheels, tires etc. I doubt rider input was ever considered.
This project never was about winning a WC in 3 years, just indulging corporate egos.
Longitudinal crank shaft motorcycles (Gold Wing, Old BMW, Moto Guzzi) torque must play havoc with the bike stability. Is it wheel inertia that holds the bike up when cranking the throttle? a transverse crank can do wheelies.. why can a Longitudinal crank do a Sideways Slide?
There's no wheel inertia holding it up when you're sitting at a stoplight and you blip the throttle believe me, the first time you do that it's startling, it won't exactly rip one out from underneath you and flop it on it's side but it's definitely something you need to expect to happen when you quickly give it a shot of throttle from an idle, as much as I'd heard BMW and Moto Guzzi riders riders talk about it the first time I went to go for a ride on a BMW a friend of mine had just bought I completely forgot about that and when I smacked it on it's ass before I pulled out when I was still sitting there in neutral I surprised myself pretty good forgetting to expect it, I must have developed quite a look on my face because my buddy was laughing at me pretty good, I'll bet the handles threw to the right 3 or 4 inches when I did it, they weren't ripped out of my hands but I still didn't have my arms braced for it in expectation of it happening, yea if you're not thinking about it the first time you do that on one of those bikes it'll generate a memory you'll never forget.
The goldwing had a counter rotating flywheel/clutch and final drive vs the crankshaft that balanced it out and reduced the driveshaft lift and quirkyness as a bonus that most shaft drive bikes have ... its a brilliant design on hondas part , smooth as silk, and incurs no stability problems to the bike at all ... most people dont know this fact
The Chain Home system was not that effective, advanced or the hero of detecting incoming German planes during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, the real heroes of early detection was the Coast Watcher's and the people in what was called The Filter Room at Bentley Priory, they sorted through all the information that came in from the radar operators and Coast Watcher's and determined what was relevant and what wasn't.
Chain Home was so primitive that before the war a German spy dirigible was sent on a cloudy day when they knew it wouldn't be seen on an electronic surveillance mission to investigate the strange towers being built on England's coast, they believed the towers were part of an early warning radar system but wanted to confirm it, one the first day when they detected it's signal it was so weak and poor they initially thought their equipment was defective or they were catching radio waves that were bouncing off clouds or something was giving them interference, they spent some time checking everything out about their equipment, after thoroughly checking it and finally accepting that their equipment was fine they accepted that the signal was indeed from the towers and pending it being defective doubted it was part of an early warning system because of it's extremely low quality, their findings led them to believe it wasn't a part of an early warning system and most likely was part of a weather forecasting system, that was the limit for the intelligence they could gather on it because the next day the system was switched off, they presumed that was because the British collected enough information for an extended weather forecast, in reality it was switched off because it was broken and technicians were trying to fix it, after that the weather cleared up and they didn't have the necessary cover to fly another electronic surveillance mission, meanwhile the Germans had been building far more advanced radar systems even before the war, namely Freda and Wurtzburg (I'm sure i spelled them wrong, don't really care), and no, contrary to the popular belief with some people those weren't systems based on captured Britain equipment in France after Dunkirk, they were developed entirely by them, what the British did that was right was using radar as an early warning system albeit that their Chain Home system wasn't that good they saw the importance of an early warning system, the Germans being slow to warm up to that concept developed their systems for offensive uses, gun ranging and guiding aircraft like bombers to their destination and even tell them when to release their bombs, technically they were the first to "radar bomb" but their way of doing it was vastly inferior to the later developed British bombing radar that was actually inside a bomber scanning the ground looking for a large return that would indicate being over the bomb release point, once adapted to early warning the German systems performed much better than Chain Home and is why later on they could have 250+ fighter's in the air from different locations all in the same place at once and at altitude and in front of them to intercept Allied bombers that were inbound, even after having been driven inland from the French coast where they could visually see Allied bombers forming up like the English Coast Watcher's could watch them forming up over their air bases in France near it's coast when they were launching raids against England early on.
For a good read about the truth of Chain Home, the German spy mission to investigate the strange towers being built on the English coast, the Germans development of radar and both their uses in the war Google and download the pdf titled "Deflating The Myth of British RADAR Superiority and Chain Home During WW2" that's not the exact title but it'll get you there, it was a paper written by a Major for the US War College, it's very interesting and insightful.
A little off topic.. My first bike was a 2004 CBR 600RR
I had a 929RR Erion Racing Edition, which was just a sticker package but boy did it look cool.
Mythical means that it doesn't exist except in dreams. I think you meant magical
Here we go again: NO, it was NOT a V4, it was a V8!!!
This was done to increase the revs hence to increase the output, and to circumvent the rulebook they 'interconnected' the pistons so as to create four cylinders, albeit oval in shape.
What's so difficult to understand????
It was cheating, a thing Honda is well known for..... sure, technically nice but cheating nonetheless!