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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ธ.ค. 2021
- An interview with Mary Winkler, who killed her husband for his abuse. Watch more full episodes of "The Oprah Winfrey Show": bit.ly/towsepisodes
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UNLOCKED FULL EPISODE: "Wife Who Killed Pastor Husband " | The Oprah Winfrey Show
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I really felt the pain of Mary's father when describing her bruises. My daughter was married 15 months before I realized there was a problem in her marriage. We were shopping for new clothes to wear to a friends wedding, and I accidentally walked in on her in the changingroom, I actually cried out when I saw her body, and bruises. She admitted to me right there that her husband had been beating her. She was ashamed, and wondered if she was the problem. We totally loved her husband, and we were shocked to say the least! She had dated him for 2 years, but never lived with him before the marriage. She said he had never hit her before marriage. Our proudest moment of our daughter's life came when she left the marriage. It took therapy for her to realize it was not her fault, and he would never stop. Thankfully, there were no children.
Desertwind, I can't describe my emotions reading your post and about your proudest moment of your daughter's life. Good to know that she is safe now and that she has the support of her loving family. I feel for all of you for having experienced such horror. There is nothing worse for a parent than knowing that this is happening to one's child.
So happy for your daughter and y'all as a family. So many women don't get out of this cycle of abuse.
Thank God!!!
No children with him. Amen!!!!
I'm so glad that your daughter got out of that marriage!
Her attorney who got her her kids back after the trial is a badass
No civilian lawyer has lost against CPS/DFCS!!!
@@conniemoore4801 What? Maybe in this case, it is different, but I’ve seen people try to “fight” cps. If a a lawyer was called about a cps case they would say that you just have to do what they say. And the lawyer they appoint you with is just there to advocate for you, but they can’t help you if you don’t help yourself by failing to participate in the services or make the changes asked of you.
But again I’m not sure if that is what you are talking about.
Yes indeed
@@corettaevans3970 do you think she shouldn’t have her children back I do there is something off about this women see my comment above
YES! Thank you so much for this! 😀🙏💜
A battered woman can only take so much. Mary Winkler is not evil, she just snapped.
Betty Broderick snapped too, and her story was unbelievable. She even gave birth to still born child while Dan partied up with friends in the ski slopes, she sacrificed everything for him only to be replaced by a younger model. She is serving life without parole. Mary has little to nothing about her hubby's abuse. And she is walking free. I don't understand the judicial system in the states not one bit
My heart aches to see her still afraid if he is coming back to hurt her.
@@elixkhan3561 but it's other people hurting her in his place, so it's on going. His family should be ashamed of what he did to her
@@estellewadsworth4187 That's because you can't kill your husband because he's mean to you, even if he cheats and says and does awful things, that's grounds to leave them, not kill them and their girlfriend in cold blood.
@@estellewadsworth4187 Betty Broderick was definitely abused by her husband for sure but she committed her crime in an big city in California. I believe the she needs to be released from prison but it's California and she probably will never be released. Mary is still being victimized by her in-laws, the community etc. His parents are so WRONG and they should be ashamed of themselves. Those kids need their mother now more than ever, give her the children ASAP!!!
This lady is a classic example of battered, tortured woman...has gotten so used to abuse, she seems to often feel guilty and not able to put things in perspective
Psychopathic killer. Simple really.
I agree Akbar, there are men who suffer horrible abuse of every form from their wives also.
Her emotional thinking becomes so high because of the abuse. She married a narcissist.
My thoughts exactly Cheryl! If you’ve ever suffered from narcissistic abuse you’ll recognize it within the first 2 min of her speaking. She’s absolutely right you can’t remember what caused every fight because any conversation about anything could potentially end in a fight. They are ticking time bombs. Narcissists attract kind humans because they want to see themselves in them. I was ready to check myself into a psych ward when I left my ex. Luckily I had enough foresight to know if I didn’t leave, one of us would end up dead.
But if the husband would have shot and killed her because she was the abuser, it still would have been his fault, right?
This woman's nuts - YOU CAN'T SEE THAT? She's a murderer. Her life was not threatened. How stupid can some of you be?
She not only comes off as traumatized but maybe also medicated or dissociating, I feel for her 💔
I do too. When dating my ex he never hit me till we got married.
I think he hit her a lot more than she realizes. She said he didn't hit her often but in her mind, "often" probably meant multiple beatings a day. I'll bet he did hit her often
@@GameChanger597 I agree! Definitely,look how shameful at court with the shoe & wig! She couldn't do anything but keep her head down!
These folks come from the Bible Belt states where their church is law and unfortunately, she snapped because the man she married was a cruel psychotic and even though she finally allowed the truth of this matter in her marriage to come out…… some people couldn’t accept this horrible truth about their Pastor because they felt betrayed and fooled by him and therefore, some folks turned their backs on her. The truth is that this is her life and she wanted to protect her children and continue to be the best mother for her three children after she dealt with a monster she was apprehensive about being killed by him! He had threatened her life before she ended his life!
I was saying the same thing to myself. It’s like she’s disconnected from this. This situation broke her, for sure.
I have gone through a marriage like this with my first husband. I escaped, but it was hard. Watching her still not be able to talk about things unless prompted just slays me.
My heart breaks for her
I feel for her so much.
Same… still traumatised 30 years later
Ya and oprah gives her such evil looks at times...
@@teeniequeenie8369 because she’s lying
I’m so glad the jury believed her. So sad about the children
You'll never understand why or how someone could do this until you've been in their place.
JUSTICE SERVED IN MY BOOK BECAUSE YOU CAN TAKE ONLY SOOOOOOOO MUCH AND THEN YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE IT FOR REAL TIME
@@wendycarstens9970 Very,very.well said wendy.l agree with you.
Very true
You can imagine, that's why signs are present. You grow up with morals and values to help guide your decisions. So you don't really have to touch the stove if you've seen the red/orange flames and know it's hot.
Absolutely
A woman may endure the "unendurable" from a man, but when the life of her child is threatened by that man, an unprecedented power is unleashed in her that nobody messes with.
Well I think that’s what we like to think but it’s not always true. I know it is for me but that seems to have missed my mother
@@Lisa-yv2hd I think it was somewhat harder for our parents to leave abusive marriages. I know for my mother there was very little social support for single mothers at that time. You can also be worn down mentally after years and years of abuse. Let’s hope those days can come to an end in the near future. But, definitely there are also some mothers who just didnt get that maternal gene that enables you to protect your kids at any cost. Kids need at least one parent there for them unconditionally.
well.. i like your metaphor.. whatever you call that.. ur speech..
inceed - the mama bear came out!
Exactly!
She still looked stoic, she still has most of the blank look still on her face, at the time of this interview. 16 years later.... I do hope she is completely healed.
Lots of love any woman reading this, and in a similar situation.... please find the strength to leave. You are so much better than what is happening to you. You dont deserve any of this.
Oprah's lawyer in the audience clearly believes the same as Oprah.
What’s curious to me is that she asked for the chance to tell Oprah her story, and yet it was like trying to roll a boulder up a mountain getting her to spill. Oprah is a master of both patience and savvy. Great interviewer.
My ex husband abused me for 12 years and even though Mary is odd and hard to understand in this interview I believe her because I am sure I sounded odd and hard to understand once finally came out of my closet about the abuse. It’s difficult once you finally feel safe and confident to tell your story and I’d be lying if I said I never thought of killing my husband. I never had a plan to kill him because I am not a killer and I’d never kill my childrens father, I’d like to think that would never kill anyone especially someone I loved but I think God everyday that he did leave me for another woman he met at work because now that I am thinking more clear headed and free I know myself and him are lucky that he is still alive today. What I am saying is that now I realize how mentally unstable being in a abusive relationship can be, I was so emotionally and physically worn out that I wouldn’t put it past myself that at that time I could’ve easily killed him. There were days that I was exhausted and extremely dazed and confused I could’ve killed him and not know what I was doing or even remembered what I had done after the fact. I feel bad for people who have lost their lives and their families but I also feel bad for people in prison who took the life of an abusive spouse because the human mind and body can only take so much abuse and stress before they snap and it’s fight or flight. What tugs at my heart the most is that their are probably so many black woman in prison for killing their abusers who will never get the chance to have a con considerate jury like Mary got given. God be with those who are imprisoned today for defending themselves against their abusers and wonder, should I have laid down let them kill me and I’d be free or dead right now? If you’re in an abusive relationship tell somebody, write it down, take pictures and videos keep track of every instant so you will have proof one day because it may be yours or someone else’s last day. If we have the strength to stand up against abuse maybe they’ll think twice before disrespecting a human that way! I still have ptsd and nightmares from the years with my abusers.
I AGREE 👍 100 % SOMETIMES NOT ALWAYS AS EASY AS IT SEEMS , I ONLY STAYED LONG ENOUGH TO GET OUT AND GET MY OWN PLACE FOR ME AND MY OWN KIDS BUT IT STILL CONTINUES WITH STALKING AND OTHER STUFF , SCARY AS HELL
@@wendycarstens9970 Ohh, please be careful. Never ever meet him anywhere alone. Equip yourself with a taser, spray, a knuckle ring, a loud whistle. I hope you get through this safely.
I’m so very sorry for all that you went through and unfortunately, so many others. 🥀
It's not about having a considerate jury. If you have money for a lawyer you can get off. If you take the free lawyer they will make u take a really bad plea deal.
I lived with that for 7 years and it made me feel like I wasn't good enough for any man. He broke my nose 2 times and he finally beat me so bad I had to leave for my kids hewas just like her husband. That's not a husband just a monster.
She says ‘yes but’ a lot and then proceeds to still,be trying to explain his behavior. This is very clearly abuse. I’ve done the same thing in an abusive relationship and afterwards. It takes a long time to heal and change those behaviors.
My husband never hit or threatened me, but he was very domineering, derisive and critical. I can certainly relate to her constant efforts to try to figure out how to please him. It is impossible. These types cannot be pleased. They do not even want to be happy.
Amen
Well, this story is actually how religion keeps battered and abused women in abusive relationships because they're afraid of divorce and how they will look to the public. Just like she said, she was only worried about what the neighbors would think. Sad.
@@jenniferlawrence9473 the devil himself was probably using her conscience to torment her. She was very likely trapped by the conviction that she had to do the right thing. I knew a lady who was badly physically abused for years because she was convinced that divorce was a greater sin than her husband’s beatings. When she became afraid he would kill one of the children that was the last straw, but it got to the point that his abuse of one child made the news. The boy had wet the bed so the man tied him to bed springs and forced him to stay that way for the rest of the night. The boy very likely suffered brain damage at the hands of this man because he had lifelong mental problems.
I live with one. My husband can never have a conversation or ever 😃 smile. Nothing is enjoyable to him. He is always miserable.
@@jamiepan7650 Please make a plan to get away from him & don't tell him! You deserve so much better! ❤️
This poor lady is extremely traumatized. In this interview, she showed more compassion for her abuser than she did for herself- a husband who
beat her, sexually abused her, raged at her, abused her daughters, and verbally abused her- all while PRETENDING to love Jesus as a local pastor 🤮.
I think a lot of her comments ring true of someone in an abusive relationship. You are never allowed to speak freely, make decisions, and live walking on egg shells. Her vagueness could relate to lapses in memory because of the trauma she was living in, and not always having a reasonable explanation for everything. Honestly unless you have lived in this hostile environment it is hard to relate to what truly happens to people living in this amount of toxicity
I agree with everything you said. Not only is the spouse affected as described, so are the children. And, it follows them into adulthood. I’d like to know why Mary was so quiet? What kind of home was she raised in? Why was her husband abusive? What kind of home did he come from? I’m familiar with abusive situations. Even if there is no abuse happening at the moment, it’s always expected at any moment.
And it can take decades to look back and see the whole picture
@@elsajones6325 Amen
True but she could have gotten a divorce v killing her spoUSE. The WAR of the. HE-ROSES is today 's. divorce process where the winner gets to live.
@@nettejohnson7492 and it's usually the spouse who gets to live because by percentages, males are more agressive than women. And when a woman snaps, she is judged by women. "She could have gotten a divorce". .... That is such a silly comment considering her state of mind after YEARS of torture
I filed for divorce after trying to push my husband down the stairs. I knew I was very close to killing him after years of mental abuse. The last straw was when he came home and said hello to one child but not the other one because he thought that child was my favorite. That son busted out crying, I knew then I had to get us out of it. In my mind, fine abuse me but not my children. I believe her because I have made the same comments "I failed him", again putting the guilt on yourself for their issues.
i was in abusive relationship, and have talked with other women about theirs.... we take so so much, and then its usually the smallest thing that makes us say enough is enough. mine was also when my ex mistreated one of our children bc he thought i favored him. when its focused on our children, that turns us into a different beast.
I so identify with this precious lady. I was courted by a saint; I married the devil. I divorced and left.
me too!
Thank God you were able to get out!
Im getting married soon...these type of stories scare me 😭😭😭
and you did not decide to murder him. that is the point. She could have left anytime, but she chose murder.
Same here
She still looks terrified. Praying she gets the help that she needs
WOULDN'T YOU BE , I'M STILL IN THE SAME PREDICTMENT AND I THINK ALOT OF US ARE HONESTLY , BECAUSE THEY HIDE RAGE POWER CONTROL NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITIES DISORDERS AND WITHOUT HELP THE REST OF THE FAMILY 👪 ESPECIALLY KIDS SUFFER HELL FOR YEAR'S AND YEAR'S SAD SPEAKING 🔊 FROM ONE WHO STILL SUFFERS FROM IT
@@wendycarstens9970
Hi Wendy. I am in the same situation. 21 years married to a cruel narcissistic. I blamed myself for everything all the time. Now I opened my eyes and see clear now. He is mad because I am not the same anymore.
Exactly and Oprah must have harmed her more!!!
I was married to a monster just like him. I completely understand her pain. It's very sad. I finally got out, thank God!
So glad you got out.
Same and I left him in public but he still attempted to kill me. The cop and my family arrived at once. My husband now protects me in every way he can. I am so blessed now.
well done from linda in scotland
It took me 26 years but I also got out. God bless you for doing the same
@@denisesalmon4496 mine was about as long as yours to my kids dad… he was so controlling ( as well as no access to money even though he made good money) I finally got out made 2 more bad choices thank God I’m single now… there are so many like them out there… and they don’t show that side until you’re married quite often…
She did get custody of all three kids. Good for her!
Weird interview, I'm sorry for the kids who has to grow up wt her, I don't believe her, bcs Opera had to refer to what she have told earlier ‼️
It's hard for her to maintain eye contact with Oprah. She's not being totally honest about some things. However I do believe she was abused & battered in many ways. Poor kids, so very sad all the way around 😢😢😢😢
@@tovenrvik6336 I don’t believe her either, I’m the last person to defend any man who hits a woman (I’ve lived with an abuser) but some of the things don’t add up
@POWERDIRECTOR CLIPS ok hun, whatever you say but I’ll say one thing, there is no God 😊
@POWERDIRECTOR CLIPS when I saw her bow her head (when the wig and shoes were shown) I thought she was a really bad actor
I was born and raised here in McNairy County. I now advocate for ALL Crimes Against Children, Domestic Abuse, Exploitation, Trafficking, Missing, and Constitutional and Civil Rights. I was present during the trial. Mary is one of the many reasons why I do what I do.
God bless you!
You are a true blessing
All my kids were born in Selmer. During the time that this happened. Alot of people were against her saying she was guilty. I was working at the prison in Clifton. Some of them there mostly the women were saying she was guilty. Looking back I would never want a people like that who are quick to just make up there minds with no evidence. Sit in that box of 12. You would never stand a chance. I'm surprised she didn't get convicted. With out hearing any evidence they had made up there minds.
Thank God for you!
Mary represents just one woman, but there are many like her even in 2022. I went to a couple of churches that provided the perfect breeding ground for my abusive husband of 25 years to thrive. Many people misuse the word of God to perfect the art of narcissistic behavior. The lack of discernment and compassion in even well meaning folks can be harmful to vulnerable people, particularly women with children.
If you bully, molest, beat, mentally and physically abuse somebody long enough, they will strike back at some point. This woman had no other option than to free herself from the torture and humiliation inflicted by her husband. I am glad that her sentence was light. Lesson to all wife, child and animal abusers and beaters out there.....
It is called reactive abuse and is very real but can happen in varying degrees..in her case it was extreme, but nevertheless reactive abuse.
Charlie Barrow.Very well said indeed.l so much agree with you.👍
Yes, as what happened with the brothers who killed their rich abusive parents. I feel so sorry for those boys who knew the only way they could be free from the abuse was to kill their parents. Now they are serving a prison sentence all over again
Agreed. I truly have a problem with mean people and bullies. I hate that he died and didn’t get the help he needed- but he ultimately got what he asked for.
@@blondegiraffe2023 that was the Menendez brothers, I believe. I agree with you! I knew when I first heard about it that there had to have been abuse and those two boys were tried before sexual abuse by a parent was taken into consideration. Since then the laws have changed, and I’ve wished someone would pick up their case again and declare time served. Heck, time was already served by the years of abuse they had to endure. I can’t stand mean people - especially those who take advantage of others who can’t do anything about their situation.
My heart breaks for Mary.
Yes, some of her answers are vague, but that is due to multiple things. She's clearly mentally traumatized by Years of mental and physical abuse from her husband, the shame and guilt she was still feeling, and the stigma of being a Christian woman in the south.
I live near selmer, so I'm very familiar with the Christian upbringing around here. A lot of things are just supposed to remain unspoken. If it's unpleasant, you don't speak of it to others. It's the woman's place to hold it all together and make it look perfect. It's unhealthy but that's how it is, especially 15-20 years ago when this happened.
This is a woman who still is making excuses for her abusive husband. I hope that she has been able to get help since this happened and is leaving a peaceful happy life somewhere.
There is something else wrong with this woman.
@@cherolpoole7286 like asbergers or autism? Perhaps, but it doesn't diminish the effects of abuse, only the conveyance of the Information requested of her
He tried so hard to break her. He almost won
The entire courtroom gasping when the defense showed the wig and shoes he made her wear was all you needed to know about the community she was brought up and lived. To them, that was more shocking than the actual shooting or abuse.
I grew up in a very abusive home in which all forms of abuse took place. Both of my parents were raised in the south and they both were raised Christian. My mother is 86 and if my father was alive he would be 88 years old. They are also people of color. They were very much of the mindset that what happens in the home stays in the home. There is something else wrong with this woman.
I feel so bad that she thought that she could inform her husband how worn out she was. He wouldn't have cared. He wouldn't be bothered... abusers abuse because they don't care about you
I remember this when I was younger. This shook west TN. No one should ever have to endure this. Bless her.
Middle Tennessee. I worked with a girl at the time that went to their church.
My heart breaks for her. She was pushed way beyond her limits
@@bronwyntanner4501 Absolutely !! I have been abused myself but I could express myself I If you have never been abused, you don't realize the trap you are in, and it is a gradual thing. I usually just put on a smile next day simply because I could not open up anything, I just wanted peace. However, the last time I was abused my sister found out about it and the day after she called the sheriff office and reported it, unbeknownst to me. Well, a deputy was sent out to check on me, then some other people that works in the abuse entity came and talked with me, and my husband. They wanted to take him straight to jail and I ask them not to. I promised I would contact them if anything happened again. That got my husband's attention. my husband's rage issues are not the some total of him. I won't bore you all with anything more. It has been about 9 mos ago, no incidence since then. That call to the sheriff's office was the best thing that could have possibly happen.
@@urhairstylist18 I’m from West Tennessee,too. I know that traumatized her. Smh
@@larayav1839 it’s never okay to kill, but I’ve been in an abusive relationship and found myself in a very bad situation one day that could have been deadly. You never know what could happen until you’re mentally in that moment. Thank God for turning it around.
We are looking at temporary insanity here. In a case like this everything becomes a blur from yrs of abuse, and I think the fact that he had demonstrated that he could actually smother their child is what just pushed her over the edge. A person who is shy and does not verbally express how they are suffering is a prime candidate for them to flip out. And being a preachers wife, puts them under extreme pressure, of many kinds, on the wife.
Well Stated Amberlilly
Ok
@@Vbluevital I agree.
Agree.. VICTIM of abuse
From a legal standpoint it’s amazing she got off as easily as she did. There’s lots of women in prison for killing husbands that are looking at this going huh?
Right
She also committed fraud lol
I think she got off easy. And it's bizarre.
I agree, just look at Betty Broderick and not even a chance at getting out! I'm psychic to a degree and I'm getting vibes from her body language that she's not being truthful; maybe I'm wrong, but she looks away quite a bit during this interview instead of making eye contact and she also flutters her eyelids; this is very common in Liars and Master Manipulators!
@@toni3270 l
@@toni3270 I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! I'm getting the same vibes.
I am fully sympathetic to Matthew's parents/mother for losing their child. However, when she told Mary that she never apologized for killing their son or the girl's their dad, I thought--If Mary's dad saw she was a "very abused wife", did Mathew's mother not see it also? Surely, they saw tons of red flags and signs. Did Matthew's parents apologize to Mary for what their son did to her? Or aologize to the girls for how their son abused their mother? Those girls saw more than the night Mary killed Matthew. Children of domestic violence suffer a great deal. Matthew's parents knew their son and they knew what he was capable of. Other people were aware of his raging temper. One of the reasons domestic violence is so very difficult and the abuser lacks accountability and the person abused feels they have no one to turn to, is very sadly due to in some situations, the family members excuse the abusive behavior and look the other way. I am very happy to hear Mary regained custody of her children! I pray life is good to them going forward from all of this. My opinion, I do think Mary had planned to kill him. She may have felt that was the only way she could protect herself and her girls. She appears very abused and tramatized. Matthew may have threatened if she leaves him he will find her and kill her and the girls as well as anyone who helps her. Sounds far fetched however, that kind of threat is thrown about by many abusers and the victim truly believes it. Very tragically those kind of things have indeed occurred.
Remember the burning bed and she was found innocent
Maybe he was abused by his father. I'm not saying it justifies anything but the parents might not care
You are exactly right! I know!
@Satya Persaud, my same thoughts!
@@korneliav.414 Exactly! 💫. Fortunately, there is more support and awareness for domestic abuse victims but still not enough however it is still improving at least. All the best!🌹
Being a Pastor couldn't be an assurance that he is not evil. Hahaha. I believe Mary!
Exactly
Mostly
Mary is not a bad mother, she protect her kids to that evil man.
I have been in this situation before and I had no support or help. I didn't know who to turn to and I was afraid no one would believe me. I suffered terrible anxiety and depression and I finally got away, but I can definitely understand how women could be brought to this. It's terribly underinvestigated and this kind of abuse needs to be taken seriously and investigated more. There are far too many people in relationships who are abused and scared because they have nowhere to go!
so true and the predators isolate their victims so they have no place to run to. Insidious and evil they are.
Me too honey
You are so right!
wish you health, strength and powers. good for you.
She needed to stand up for herself and her daughter. She knew in her gut after he smothered the baby.
The man was a monster. If it wasn't him it would have been her and the kids.
I think Mary knew someday the scumbag would kill her & the baby, I’m glad she got a light sentence & got her kids back, no one deserves to be abused, mentally or physically
Mary wasn’t very explicit in her trying to describe all what happened! I think she just absolutely blanked out because of her fear and weariness!
Classic communal narcissist and narcissistic abuse. My heart goes out to her and the family. Killing still not justified. Thank you for sharing this.
It’s so hard for her to live this again and relive the abuse
As a pastor he should never abuse . He should be kind and love his wife.
Pastors/evangelists are demons!
You mean: as a HUMAN BEING you should never abuse. Pastors get away with a lot.
@@lizzymelinda3450 just gonna say the same!!!!
Sadly, many so-called pastors, especially of those small, unsupervised churches, are drawn the job because they crave control and the adulation of the women in their congregation.
I remember when this happened when I was young. I always felt so bad for this woman. Mary had to go thru so much and for so long in silence. People from where I’m from, think just because your a pastor, you do no wrong. I hope she was able to build a life for herself and her kids.
She said she went thru so much ... Mary Winkler should be in jail for life what if she gets upset with her kids is she going to shoot them
@@misstbull nope her kids weren’t abusing her like like that bible thumping husband.
13th 7
@@misstbull He was suffocating her baby.
@@misstbull you obviously have no idea about abuse in a relationship
You can tell it's hard for her to talk about, because she's such a soft spoken laid back woman
She reached her pain threshold, grabbed the gun so he would listen and take her seriously… What’s bad is that he would never do so, so she probably thought this was her only option when he threatened her… and the baby… Women will lose their total $h*t if someone were to threaten the life of their child!
You are exactly right!
This is what disassociating looks like when you have PTSD.
I always feel that women are womens worst enemies. We have gone thru a lot of abuse from husbande, family, so called friends, supeervisors at work, etc, etc. Only the person that endures the abuse knows what is like on a daily basis. If I was to talk about my ordeals no one would believe me because I dealt with it and never told anyone. The thought of killing someone that abuses you crosses everybodys mind when you find yourself alone and powerless against the stronger one. Lets stop the hipocresy and pretending we are better than her. Church men and women are human beings w the same passions and feelings as non church goers. Thats why we see child molesters ,(pastors, priests) wife batters, etc. Dont cast the first stone , it might ricochet bk to you. Lord have mercy.
Very well said!!! 👏🏾👍🏾👏🏾
I feel like she is lieing.
You literally are the only person on here that has a brain and a heart to tell the TRUTH. Well said !
If you have not woke up, hoping that you can have a peaceful day. Hoping not to piss your mate off, but the rules keep changing, so you are nervous every waking moment. And despite your wishes, you know most likely, something will set the person off that you share a space with every day and night. you might not get the state of mind this lady found herself in.
AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH EVER SPOKEN AND IVE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN
I love these classic episodes.
Same!
@@jaskayy6590 Ditto!
Me too...unlock some more!!
So do I their my favorite
Why do you love seeing and listening to someone's pain and suffering? The only feeling it should evoke is sadness.
Nobody can understand what she was talking about when she talked about breaking that visor in her car and being terrified unless you have lived with a monster! I have done that! I grew up like that! It is horrifying and you are never the same! That attorney/media person obviously NEVER HAS!!!
The fear blocks out rational thought
Some pastors abuse their spouses physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually and financially and no one in their church believes them or tells them for forgive, have patience or love them harder and they will be rewarded .
I've seen my own father put his hand over my baby nephew's mouth & pinch his nose in a fit of rage for waking my dad up with his crying. It looked to me like he was trying to suffocate him or at least teach him not to cry or else. I know I was afraid my dad would kill him in a fit of rage and had to run out of the room calling for my youngest sister who took the baby into her bed. Likely this woman felt the same way which pushed her over the edge. The baby's mother was in Hawaii on her honeymoon & my mom was in a mental institution having electroshock treatments. It affected me so much that I could never stay at the family home ever again!
How dreadful and your poor mum in an institution too..no wonder you didn't want to stay in the family home again..poor little nephew what a horrible experience.
Its more than thirty years since I divorced my husband.I still have to have therapy for a few months at a time because my personality is so shaped by that life.
She's so damaged she can't even make eye contact. Heartbreaking
She shot him BECAUSE SHE FEARED FOR HER CHILD'S LIFE!!! A mother's instinct to guard her child is REAL!
Bingo. If it is as she says, him trying to smother the baby I'd black out in a rage too and it isn't that hard to pick up a gun or weapon if you are in that type of rage.
Yea..
Nope ... she admitted it in the beginning. It was about image. If it had been about her children, she would have taken them immediately out of there and gone to a shelter or to the police OR TO HER DAD'S (WHO SUPPOSEDLY TRIED REACHING OUT TO HER) while he was sleeping instead of getting the shot gun out of the closet and shooting him in the back ... WITH HER CHILDREN IN THE SAME HOME.
Wtf is wrong with you ppl?
Women have been through what she supposedly went through and more .... should we all get a free pass when our man is sleeping to shoot him in the back??????
@@Katrielible He wasn't asleep. And it's called Battered Women Syndrome. Many many abused women have successfully proven they had no other options. He threatened to kill her, he said he'd chop her up, he was a pastor do you think the cops would believe her or him? How nice it must be to pass judgement when you probably never were controlled and mentally or emotionally abused like this woman was.
@@oc2538 i do not have to believe either one of them. In fact, you and i do not even get to hear his side to say that we believe in him cuz she shot him.
And have you looked into the case? He WAS asleep and she shot him in the back after getting the coffee started. He was not threatening her in any way when she shot him, wiped his mouth, cut the phone line and ran off with her children while he was still alive. The account she gives here is not the full account and she leaves out the fact that one of the daughter's walked in on him asking for help.... he was not dead when she left and she cut the lines.
And she says her husband fell for a scam when it was really her. It was actually more than 1, i think 2. It was the scam where Nigerians look for desperate women generally but sometimes men online and strike up a relationship based on lies that the person is really american and rich but all his money is tied up and if she can just transfer some money he will give it all back when he returns to the state to marry her. Dr phil has episodes on it.
Mary screwed up and shot the father of her children. . .. IN THE BACK WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING.
I do not know that he was any more or less abusive than her. I know that it benefitted her greatly that believed her account .... so, it is not like she did not have anything to gain by saying he abused her. But it is difficult for me to tell .... she shows no remorse and even the toughest of ppl testify to the trauma of killing a human being (very few ppl, especially women in Mary's alleged position .... women that kill from abuse have shown great emotion when recounting their stories, especially if their children are near by ...
This woman has the shadow of contempt when she is speaking about an otherwise traumatic event.
One thing is ..... she did not kill him for her children, otherwise she def would have been more direct about it.
I totally understand her......it resonates....had similar. I can tell that Oprah clearly doesn't understand what these crazy dynamics feel like. its absolute craziness. There are no logical conversations to be had when these dynamics exist. They have NO desire to interact or resolve anything.....they only want power and control
Narcissists want's to control, destroy and dim another humans light ‼️
NARCISSISTIC PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUS CREEPS 😳 😐 WATCH OUT
TRUE FACT 👍
Agree Melinda, Assuming he choose his job as a pastor because of the power and control that comes with the job. I have been watching similar shows of Oprah with cheating husbands, and I think many are narcs. Exhibit similar behaviour eg. control, need for fuel. they deny, deflect and then blame their partner for their behaviour. Narc don't feel empathy or love.
Yes you can tell she’s been abused badly! She can’t even see her husband covering the nose & mouth of her baby ... was him trying to kill the baby or maybe she was so used to it she knew he was trying to shock her.....
there’s nothing she could of said to him that would of changed anything.
Shame on the Winklers for raising such a narcissistic sociopath. They are enabling him after his death. This is perfect example of how abuse victims go on to be traumatized.
Totally agree with you. By the way his mother was talking to Mary, sounds like she might have a little narcissism going on herself.
Stephanie, the idea that the abused continues to be abused is so right. I was abused for years and finally got out of it after 30 years living with abuse. I had anxiety, depression problems. I had a lot of PTSD . People shamed me and I continued to be abused by others. People do not really understand. After living in fear for 30 years, you can not expect to come out of it without problems, but people just do not get it.
Exactly!
The way I understood it, the Winklers could do no wrong and that was the case for generations.
Yep
Came here after watching the Lifetime movie, "The Pastor's Wife". Rose McGowan really nailed the accent. Such a tragic case. 💔
Agreed! I've watched it a few times on my phone. Poor woman😭.
This interview is so frustrating. The description of that day as well as her experience of abuse with him is so vague.
Exactly. It’s like she didn’t want to talk.
Also feel as if she is lying 🤥
@@LoveDemi.XO_ yeah I think she's lying too. A lot!
I think she had a custody case open so limited what she said..I dont know that she was lying as she was holding back...so much it was a non enlightening interview
OMG! This is why I came to the comments, I thought it was just me. I admire Oprah’s patience. Could she possibly be suffering with PTSD or still on medications from the psychiatric hospital? She seems very detached… I agree that as interviews go, it’s unbearably frustrating.
I hope she receives the healing she needs for herself and her children to stop this cycle of abuse. He targeted her children and we do not know the limits of his deviancy, sexually, physically, and emotionally. Her husbands abuse was familiar to her.
You women taking up for a Murderer. Her Husband can't talk. She is crazy as a loon.
Other people had to recognize if he had problems, especially his Parent's & the congregation of people in his Church. She should never have custody of her Children. A Narcissistic wife can get away with Murder.
@@pattygroschke4865 Okay, Karen..
Since he left the gun in the closet in that condition, he was clearly a threat to his family. He was obviously a threat to his children. Who the hell suffocates their baby out, to get them back to sleep? That is insane and murderous. He threatened her, with "accidentally" shooting her, he was abusive to her, if she picked the gun up, in that condition, he was setting her up and she's lucky that she got to it first. She may have gotten away with involuntary manslaughter, not murder. Hope she got her kids back. Not cool for the grand kids to be raised by the parents who created her narcissistic, psychopathic husband.
A Narcissist can suffocate a baby, so he can go back to sleep, there are no empathy in them‼️They don't connect and do love, the kids are only seen as an extension of themselvs ‼️
That last part, about her children makes me puke
Blaming his parents is going too far. They’ve lost their son, don’t judge and belittle people you don’t know.
@@bluetopaz1226 what I do know is that most people don't turn out rotten without a history of abuse. The vast majority of people with a history of abuse do not turn out rotten. But when someone's a psychopath and a narcissist that didn't just start with them. Speaking from experience of personality disordered people in my life. Some of that stuff comes from at least one parent.
This poor woman is still so traumatised at the time of this interview.
The sexual humiliation can really mess you up to where you donr know who you are anymore and trying to please someone you love and that you think loves you with things that discusts you is traumatic . I see her desperation if what she says us true. It's usually a narcisist that pushes your limits . He sounds like a narcicist if this is all true.
Yes, I agree he is a narcissist. He is a "Malignant Narcissist." Malignant Narcissists are the most dangerous on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder spectrum. They are deadly and capeable of murder. I believe he is a malignant narcissist, because he was trying to suffocate his baby daughter.
Il
As someone who has been in an abusive relationship many moons ago from the ages of 16 to 23 I can absolutely relate to this woman. You are backed into a corner, it wears you down and removes every ounce of self you have. Sometimes you just get pushed that far you snap - luckily when I snapped it wasn't a gun and I escaped with just a few good bruises.
I've been a fan of Oprah since the beginning but in the first half she almost seems to have a smile behind her eyes? Is it just me?
My heart goes to the wife.
I’ve been very involved in a church before and I’ve also been in abusive relationships and this is sounding very familiar. In both incidences, you do try very hard to ‘look’ like a perfect family and you do hide things from others because of embarrassment and shame.
Anyone that hides abuse only ends up hurting themselves. I am a long time abuse survivor but at the hands of my own mother. I wish I know how to respond wisely then but at 53 the penny has dropped and I have zero contact with her which means I can now afford to heal.
Narcissistic abuse is hard to explain.
It is so clear unless you've been in a relationship with this type of person you could never understand the torment and cruelty on all levels that these victims go through. A deeper dive needs to go into that to solve the mystery. I believe she did kill him but self defense (the straw that broke the camels back) Its sad it gets to this extreme level. What else is a person to do when their soul is being removed? Spiritual warfare at work
I totally agree with you.
It’s so hard for women to prove self defense with long term abuse. We now definitely know of battered woman syndrome but most prosecutors want a win instead of getting justice.
I TOTALLY AGREE 👍 100 % AND MORE
i know somebody who's lived this way.. i don't really know if things have changed..
i know somebody who's lived this way.. i don't really know if things have changed..
The man that said she took his life… he took her life with the abuse and belittlement. She deserves her kids but I’m sure his parents have brainwashed them a bit. There is a lot of recovering there.
Yes, I agree. That’s why she and the children all need to continue in counseling- and stay away from his mother for sure. She has a little narcissistic thing going on herself. Probably why her son was like he was.
I am ten minutes into it and I can relate...She is so sweet and soft spoken I like how Oprah does not seem to 'judge her' we never know what goes on behind closed doors.
I fully believe her. I’m not saying he deserved it, but he definitely got what was coming to him.
DAMN RIGHT HE DID AND I WOULD OF DONE THE SAME THING WITH OUT HESITATION AND THAT'S JUSTIFICATION IN MY BOOK BECAUSE BY THE TIME YOU TRY & CONTACT POLICE IT'S WAY TOO LATE , SO BE IT AND IF YOU HAVE KIDS INVOLVED YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT THEM AS WELL AS YOURSELF BECAUSE NARCS LIKE TIGERS 🐅 NEVER CHANGE THEIR STRIPES
she couldve saved another woman by doing that...
We really appreciate all these unlocked episodes thank you
Apperantly Oprah doesn't now how abusive spouses are
I understand this woman completely. It’s hard for people to understand how these abusers can’t be reasoned with. I can feel her pain and I think she genuinely wanted to reason with him. It’s a very hard concept to understand unless you’ve had similar situations.
There is a difference between battered woman and forgetting those occasions? NO way! I remember every thing that my ex said to me and if I had shot him, I'd remember that too - being in a messed up marriage myself for over 14 years I can attest to that fact - 1.) you do not ever forget and 2.) it doesn't make you confused. You only forget and are confused when you lie about it.
Good for you for being able to remember, but it’s a fact that victims of extreme abuse can not often remember a lot of things that happen. I myself struggle to come up with answers like she does. My friends and family remember things that I do not. It’s called abuse amnesia, dissociation.
@@stephanied9629 That is not a fact - that is your assertion. Only those with brain damage resulting from the abuse would experience that - and there is no record of her having brain injury.
@@4everfaithful32 that’s not necessarily. I came out of an abusive situation and have ptsd. I have forgotten things and then remembered them again. Have you ever blacked out without passing out? I have. Everyone is different and some people are stronger than others. Mary seems to me to possibly be on the spectrum somewhere. I’m no doctor, but I’ve heard her other times and I read about the trial. I’ve also known several people with autism or Aspergers.
@@4everfaithful32 not necessarily. Everyone is different. This guy was a monster and she is a very simple - easy to be picked on and bullied girl.
I understand Oprah has a job to do, and obviously she knew she would have to answer some harder questions that make her uncomfortable but you can see the pain. She’s a very dignified person
shes so vague so so vague I understand pushing
These men look so good in public. My Dad was terribly verbally cruel to my mother, but NOBODY outside our immediate family ever saw it or knew about it. I loved my Dad, but I suffered terribly watching and hearing my Mom verbally beaten down do much. At 63 years of age I'm still struggling with the damage.
Sooooo everyone is complicit
Poor woman. Genuinely lovely. And you just know she’s 💯 telling the truth.
No one really knows if she's telling the truth.
Watching this years later I am shocked by the lack of any compassion or understanding of what kind of human this poor mother is. She is obviously not one to speak up, everyone says she submitted to him and thought this was her role as a mother. For all these women to judge her is appalling. The town was right. They knew him and they were part of his church community/
They knew his anger. They knew she would never stand up or try to shine. So these women believe she knew how to handle him or what to do. She told you and showed you who she is when she says it mattered what others thought and look what happened ..all the christians who judge little bitty her over the dominant male with a temper and obvious need to power.
Good lord we know men do this often in families yet women still judge her. disgusting. So glad the community knew what was right and his parents should be ashamed of themselves for damaging the children bc they did nothing to help their son and his family. Shame caused this and is what everyone is putting on her. Always the weakest link.
It's likely she was ill treated, humiliated and abused for a long time before she snapped.
At the time of this interview, she doesn't appear all there.
Chances are she has deadened her feelings and some of the memories as a defence mechanism.
So many women battered and shattered continue to remain in frightening marriages that erode them each day, wear down their confidence and kill their souls.
Sad...
I remember watching her trial and how embarrassed she was when describing how he wanted her to accommodate him in bedroom.She never seemed like she was being dishonest at all.I hope that her and her children find peace in her life.
Smothering the baby appears to have snapped her repressed fears into extreme reaction. I believe her. It's ashame she doesn't seem to function properly with cognitive processes which would lead a person to leave. Dependent and controlled I believe it never occurred to her to leave. Dead or not he likely greatly contributed to this extreme outcome. I'm also wondering how her husband's parents parented.
She is making this up as she goes
She just knew she couldn't go through anymore... She knew he had screwed her head up..... I blame the ABUSER
I can understand temporary insanity from years of abuse and I truly believe her. But damn woman divorce is a far better option than killing your husband.
This had to have been one of Oprah’s hardest interviews. She definitely was using her reporting skills.
Yes it’s a very hard interview- the answers are extremely vague and confusing- I’m guessing it’s because she’s been so traumatized? Strange interview
I would never have gone on there tbh jury made the right decision OW doesn’t need to be involved
She said i held the gun in the heart of the moment, but he was asleep. There is something fishy about her
I had an abusive partner for a few years, he was and still is so nice to people that it's hard for them to believe he is abusive even after separating. I have to deal with him and I have gone through so many similar events like that ones Mary went through, they are so good at making people believe that they would not do something like this.
it's very difficult for her to repeat all the terrible things she went through with her husband,so that makes her silent a lot and answer as if she made up a lie.
she's not lying but she telling the truth
I believe she is speaking the truth. Like her I got married after 3months and my husband would easily become enraged 😡 and hit me also
Right! Her body language tells you when it’s coming from memory and that’s 90
Percent of the story ! She was battered, poor woman! glad she got her kids back and was able to recover - as much as possible!
This woman is definitely still traumatised because she’s can’t fully put into words what he did to her, because he did so much to her very soul.
I believe her. I feel like Oprah is being…very… rude idk how to explain it
Oprah deliberately tries to intimidate and at times mock people
She doesn't try those tactics with famous stars.
Oprah is a renowned tv anchor..
But a person who sadly lacks empathy in certain matters such aa issue like marriages or children - things she hasn't experienced herself.
@@radhasen.animalwelfare.5644 lol....if Oprah was a white woman y'all would describe her a pioneer woman right? The woman is doing her job, a job she clearly is good at. You wanted her to question her like they are friends?
I think people tend to forget that as a reporter or interviewer it helps everyone to be objective. I believe Oprah is trying to keeps her emotions and feelings from coming through when she is interviewing her.
No, Oprah is asking for the woman to tell her story. This woman is lying. So much deception in her behaviour.
Oprah is rude and condescending. Oprah is not a Christian.
I understand, it’s terrible to be an abused woman but if your going to do an interview with Oprah to explain yourself, i think it would be best if you make sense about the whole event
Yeah she isn't painting the picture like I would've hoped. She is very vague but then I could've sworn jus now when Oprah asked if he hit her often she said "No not really. I would jus focus on making him happy" but then she said he threatened her wit a shotgun many times. That's a huge progression in my humble opinion. It seems like after she killed him they jus threw a bunch of things in the pot & I'm not saying he didn't abuse her but maybe not to the degree she tryna say! 🤦🏾♂️
Even in the very beginning describing the early relationship, like dating, she skimmed right over it. I’m like geeze speak woman. Very frustrating listening to this.
Think that he would have also made her think that anything she said was not worth listening to. He probably interrupted her so much just to let her know what she had to say meant nothing, but I bet she would just learn to put her emotions and thoughts out of her mind just to keep him happy. So, it would be very hard for her to actually hold a two-sided conversation, especially about her thoughts and feelings.
Dont think Oprah is too impressed with Mrs. Winkler.
Agreed she seems condescending
I think she’s asking questions a lot of people have and some are just uncomfortable and not polite.
@@shereekern6801 I actually dont understand the whole point of killing this gentleman in the first place. She seems not to have any solid reason why she did it unless they have her slightly sedated.
I believe her too. People didn't lived with them. When he hurt the baby she snapped.
Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄 love all of you
This doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
So sad I can relate to this situation.
She is lucky to be alive.
I absolutely feel Mary’s pain as a Childhood Sexual abuse/Physical abuse survivor I can totally relate… Ppl really do SNAP. It’s only so much abuse a person can take . It took years of Therapy & God that helped saved my life. I was angry as hell & even acted out in my teens & 20s
When I was arrested and charged, I was denied bail and told by my lawyers that if I did not plead guilty I could be sitting in jail waiting longer for a trial date than the amount of time that they were seeking and that I could be given twice the amount of time or more for not taking "responsibility " if found guilty at trial.
So due to those circumstances, I pled guilty knowing that I was innocent, because I didn't want to sit in jail waiting longer for a trial date than the time they were seeking, especially when prison Conditions can be cruel and unusual and trial dates can be unreasonably delayed and convictions can be wrongful and appeals can be often denied.
I pled guilty knowing I was innocent because I did not want to deal with the stress, fear, frustration, malice, or the confusion caused by systemic racism.
I pled guilty knowing that Elizabeth May Terry (lizzie terry) made false allegations in order to steal twenty-three thousand dollars of furniture and electronics from me in retaliation for cheating with her sister
As a victim of systemic racism you do not committ crimes, you just suffer the consequences of crimes like an innocent bystander.
Systemic racism made me the victim look like the criminal and the actual criminal look like the victim. Even when you tell the truth they will make you out to to be the liar and then make the actual liar out to be the one telling the truth.
They will pick sides without knowing the truth or without seeking the truth, and then concoct or make whatever side they think they can make look like the truth.
I do not need anyone to tell me that I'm innocent when I know that I am innocent. The video proves I'm innocent. The same video that the judge refused to watch.
I pled guilty knowing that I did not committ any offense, just to get out of jail.
That's your fault, innocent people don't plead guilty under any circumstance. Sorry, but that's the truth.
@@vitamine2833 wrong! Innocent people believe what their lawyers advice and follow it and die regretting it
I believed her when I followed the case but this interview makes me rethink, her account is not making sense and Oprah is saying somethings she should be explaining without being asked for details
Oprah is a horrible person! Period! She never showed a moment of empathy to invite this woman to open up. As a victim of abuse herself she does a horrible job. Not the first time she’s come across cold and uncaring.
I have always liked Oprah who she is and what she has always been about but it is clear that she has no understanding about domestic abuse or domestic violence. The true lack of empathy or compassion is obvious. It reminded me of a prosecutor interviewing a witness on the stand rather than a woman to woman trying to understand what happened. A counselor once said we victimized the victim by saying I would never allow someone to verbally or physically abuse me thereby implying something is wrong with the victim rather than it is never ok for someone to verbally abuse or hit someone. That made an impact on my way of thinking because how many times do we hear that from other women. The psychological manipulation and brainwashing grooming prior to the abuse is such a precursor to the abuse so by the time the abuse starts the victim blames themselves and believe that it's their fault and their actions caused the abuser to lash out. We as a sisterhood need to educate ourselves and others to recognize this to help ourselves and others. To be able to have grace and compassion in these circumstances which is what is needed.
Agreed
Absolutely agree
If you've experienced life with a narcissist then you would totally understand! So many relatable points.
I believe everything Mary says and I really feel for her situation. I think Justice was served in her minimal sentence and I'm so glad she got her kids back! No good could come of putting her kids in foster care and her not seeing them again. Best of luck in the future Mary hope you're doing well:-)
Sounds a lot like my ex. There was never a clear reason. Just would fly into a rage for days without a second thought. The only sure thing was that it was ALWAYS my fault.
This lady is well reserved and decent 👌 she must have been pushed to the wall before she took the decision to eliminate her husband.
My first husband was very sick and twisted too. I stayed in a women’s shelter to get away from him. He’s now homeless. His whole family turned their backs on him. I am remarried to a Choctaw king. God is good.
Good job Mary !!