New secret tape reveals top Post Office lawyer was warned of 'wrongful' convictions decade ago
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 เม.ย. 2024
- A secret recording obtained by ITV News reveals the Post Office’s most senior lawyer was warned by independent investigators more than a decade ago that it may have misled the courts and pressured sub-postmasters into “wrongful and unsafe” guilty pleas.
The recording was of a meeting held between the Post Office’s former General Counsel Chris Aujard and Second Sight forensic accountants Ian Henderson and Ron Warmington in December 2013.
It shows the two men presented a damning assessment of the Post Office’s conduct in its investigations and prosecutions of sub-postmasters, who they found were denied the right to defend themselves and forced into “courtroom step deals” with little choice but to plead guilty.
Read more here: www.itv.com/news/2024-04-03/s...
• Subscribe to ITV News on TH-cam: bit.ly/2lOHmNj
• Get breaking news and more stories at www.itv.com/news
Follow ITV News on Facebook: / itvnews
Follow ITV News on Twitter: / itvnews
Follow ITV News on Instagram: / itvnews
Vennells and Aujard to prison.
They all need to get prison sentences. They have destroyed people.
Chris Aujard needs to answer to a court for his role in this travesty of justice.
All involved need to be made an example of = Prison
but the lawyers of these people are just so guilty for allowing them to plead guilty without any evidence, this is why i say everyday--show me an honest lawyer
@@LeeOwens-gi1kt Exactly. This is absolutely disgusting, an epic cover up which the dreadful Chris Aujard should be held accountable for.
His replies are so pathetic..."I'm narrowly focused on this one issue. It's someone else's issue". He was the General Counsel, for God's sake.
@@eisbeinGermany
Ignorant comment.
Why isn't there a criminal investigation of the Post Office and it's senior management.
If you walk out of Tesco with unpaid shopping - you can't say, 'Oh let's have a public inquiry'. So why can the 'Post Office' steal, libel and commit perjury and then cover up'
and say 'lets have an expensive public inquiry'.
All the sub-postmasters should sue the Post Office in a class action for billions of £s compensation and demand that their legal fees are paid in advance by demanding that the Govt force the Post Office to pay.
It’s call the corporate veil…criminals making laws!!
Agreed! Well said 👏🏻
Well said, I agree with everything you said.
tory midling to proffit off normaly means in 10 years time with countless things in present to be angry about and no
wrong doing will be found and millions taken from the tax payer .
@@andydudley1775 Yes, instead of prosecutions of Post Office and Fujitsu ececutives - tax payers money being wasted on a public enquiry.
The "investigators" who didn't investigate, but threatened and bullied their way to convictions are as much part of the problem as the hierarchy. The prosecutions were largely based on their 'findings'. From top to bottom all were complicit through gross incompetence, criminal negligence and coverups. Despicable behavior from all concerned.
All of these management went on to earn high salaries whilst the innocent postmaster have had their lives ruined and are only being offered a pittance in return.
It is Paula Vennels, her CBE and role in the CoE that gauls me. She's allowed folks to be bankrupted and/or imprisoned (inc. suicides), deliberately lying to Parliment and she sees no issues in her preaching in a church ffs!!
The police should be investigating this, not an inquiry. No point in saying any more as we all think alike.
... and they're still low-balling the victims offering them 10-20% of their claim. This is a appalling story!
Fingers crossed Ms Hall can find some peace as I'm quite sure no amount of money could truly compensate her for what she has been wrongly put through
Nothing will happen to the upperclass lawyer's that's how this clown country operates
They’re going to be sued, & possibly prosecuted.
@@meganm1074 Whats that though, no jail
The barrister should be jailed too
Vennells should be in custody for what she has done but also for her own personal safety, she could be a flight or suicide risk!
I spent many years as a software development project manager. There is no f'ing way that the Fujitsu software devs and management didn't know about this. They had access to the source code and all the transactions and they must have lied. The only other possible explanation is they didn't have an f'ing clue how their software worked.
How about the very simple point that there was no trace of monies into their accounts or the accounts of friends or families ?
That is the only evidence that is admissable .
What was happening were accusations standing as facts and the defence lawyer, prosecution lawyer and importantly , the bloody judge would know there was NO EVIDENCE.
@@zerotoleranceforsataniceli4794 thats my question,what happened to that money, must of gone into someones bank account,
yes i agree, many companies who have brought in new software program have had years of problems as many of these software programs are not compatible with the old system and causes a meltdown of the new system, my sister worked for a gold mine company in South Africa and the company installed a new computer system,cant remember the name now--and when it was implemented with the old program the computer system basically shut down, she worked in the accounts department, it took about a year of working overtime, weekends to take all the old accounts and bring it into the new system, they were told it will be compatible with the new program which it was not, they had to manually take every old account from old system and transfer it into the new program,
Horizon was compiled with Visual Basic which is in no way a commercial software program, it was designed for home use by MS
I work in IS alongside software developers and project managers. I can tell you with my hand o my heart that’s it’s almost certainly the latter - they hadn’t got a clue what the systems were doing - which makes it worse that they stuck to their lies in their ignorance.
Why isn’t Fujitsu being sued right now!?
The answer to that is the key to all of this. The government still has 3.4 billion of active contracts with Fujitsu, all of which were created after the horizon scandal emerged. Absolutely mind blowing.
just been given more billions of our money just weeks before the programe was shown .they been well rewarded by people who already been well rewarded for fail with a pay rise for 14 years.
@@tjfSIM The software programs have been deliberately designed to gaslight, defraud and steal and pin it on the innocent!
WHEN WILL THOSE WHO ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN BE PROSECUTED
NEVER and never will.
That's the question the whole country wants answered and yet the silence from the PM and Starmer is deafening, what has happened to this country?
Prison for those individuals responsible, massive fines to Fujitsu to give proper compensation to those affected, free from legal fees. This should not be complicated.
So, in view of this revelation. Will all those who knew these sub-postmasters were innocent and didn't come forward, will they be charged and sentenced? ALL THOSE RESPONSIBLE must be criminally charged, convicted (obviously by a court) then sentenced. This is corruption at every turn!
HOLD TO ACCOUNT........The Post Office CEO and others who knew, the Post Office lawyer, the Fujitsu software employees involved, the Govt ministers who knew !!
They cannot be allowed to get away with this.
have you seen any of the interviews these high paid people pillors of the comunity and such with honors and titeles and porsitions in parliment .not got a clue all of a suddon the lot involved.and we told it ok to be stupid fail and get paid .so many of us worked too the bone ,taken jobs outside of careers just to avoid a sanction and still get one.
Fujitsu need to be removed from Government contracts immediately
15,000 didn’t go missing. Why didn’t this report say 15,000 appeared to go missing?
Oh we have a lot of lawyers who should lose their license to practice…and some who should go behind bars for wrongful conviction and destruction of reputation.
Chris Aujard needs to be prosecuted.
Yes he damn well does.
Conspiracy charges need bringing against them ALL
Prison time.
but the lawyers of these people are just so guilty for allowing them to plead guilty without any evidence, this is why i say everyday--show me an honest lawyer
Nice to know the inquiry is working around the clock to get to the truth then......it starts again next week apparently.What's wrong in getting it started again this week and getting a judgment quicker? It's not as if this inquiry hasn't already gone on for an interminable period.This country is pathetic.
Both sets of KCs & Solicitors, are working both at the Covid & Horizon Inquiries, the Gravy Train in all its Glory.
They're figuring-out who's disposable.
And horizon may or will be used for digital id I've heard, according to gb news.
Sounds like s bloody good idea, I don't think.
The post office broke the law and basically committed fraud on these poor postmasters. Forcing them to lie to the court of law. Horrible, horrible Royal Mail..... Why havent the real criminals been dealt with? Disgusting bullies! I hope they get their Karma!👀
Alison Hall is one of the hundreds of "lions who have been led by donkeys" in this scandal (like Vennels) in this seedy and shabby mess. I hope someone, somewhere in the system helps her to find well deserved peace. She has more than earned it. As for Ms Vennels, the threat that she will be admonished before parliament that I have heard about is only good enough if it is the start of actions against her.
The perpetrators of all this should be in prison!
Has anybody noticed how the members of the post office board are quietly evading scrutiny for their role in this
Appalling tragedy
Paula vennells reported to the
Post Office board
The board had a reporting relationship to the UK govt
Wonder if Chris Aujard left with a very nice pension and severance package?
Don't know about that but he is currently residing in NZ - no idea who would have let him in. We don't need people like that here, we already have enough of our own! This is his current CV: Chris Aujard joined FNZ in August 2018 as Group General Counsel (GC). He is responsible for overseeing all legal and corporate governance matters across the group.
Chris has over 30 years’ experience in financial services, having served as the GC and company secretary at companies such as Royal London (the UK’s largest life and pensions mutual), Singer & Friedlander (acquired by Kaupthing), National Australia Bank, as well as in the corporate development team at Lloyd’s of London.
Immediately prior to joining FNZ, Chris held a number of senior GC positions at both the Co-op group (non-food division, including general insurance) and a major UK institution, where, in addition to running the legal function, he had responsibility for the internal audit, risk, compliance and security functions.
He started his career in the UK in the corporate finance team at Norton Rose, a job which took him to parts of central and eastern Europe working on various M&A deals.
So he's doing OK, I think! Though he doesn't seem to want to name the "major UK institution", which is weird :/
They knew, they lied to cover it up all the while collecting their salaries, bonuses and whatever else came along with it. Perhaps those who lost out should be able to use the same kangaroo courts that the PO used to get their convictions and start chucking a few of these people into jail. Perhaps Fujitsu could pay for it with the money that went “missing”, surely they should know where it went…..
When I worked for Royal Mail I was told their internal investigations unit had more power than the MI's (5 & 6), 'because they have 'Royal' in the title'. The notion that 'clandestine cell system' compartmentalises roles & responsibilities doesn't wash. This cover-up goes high, like tainted blood. Their delivery of actual justice is to require them to take a trip to Beachy Head, voluntarily: not going to happen, just a tickle 'round the edge, & a few sacrificials.
It is incredible these forensic accountants have had to sit there for so long and wait for the truth to come out….
Just goes to prove how messed up and corrupt the system is, the bigger you are and the more money you have can make anyone guilty. Little people have no say and don’t matter. But we have strength in numbers, just remember that.
how are fujitsu getting away with this so far? For information of all, Fujitsu are major IT /network management contractors of the houses of Oirectas.
These people should receive substantial compensation as these years are years they cannot get back. And all those involved in prosecuting should be sent to jail.
Those responsible should be fully prosecuted with out any taxpayer funded lawyers
LETS WAIT AN SEE IF ANY ONE IS HELD ACOUNTABLE I BET NOT THEY SHOULD GET 11Y THE WAIT FOR HER 2 BE CLEARED
Call The Cops!✌️😎
Why? Are they interested in enforcing the law for innocent people.
The people who knew about this need to be charged and locked up, it's clear that the post office knew that these people were innocent, but they pursued the subpostmasters ruthlessly, all so they could cover it up, and keep the post office's reputation and to keep their own, out of court. What they have done is the most horrible thing that they could do to someone.
Second Sight had a Legal & Moral duty to Disclose all of its Information to both the Defence & Prosecution, using a Non Disclosure agreement in Criminal cases does not Wash, it is full Disclosure to all
This is first class information for Alison xx
Tell me everything about your elites, wow, people's lives
Why oh why 😢
I shudder to think what has happened. I would never imagine this could occur repeatedly in Britain. Our country is almost gone anyway.
When are those at the Post Office from the investigators to the board, the lawyers and more going to be arrested?
Why are the police sitting on their fat paws?
I hate them all…..but they’ll get away with it…….
All the directors and top management at the Post Office needs to be held fully accountable and prosecuted and if found guilty imprisoned. The credibility of the English legal system is on trial and the country deserves a full investigation and prosecution of those who fell very short of their responsibilities. The idea that a large group of people within The Post Office did not know what was going on is simply unbelievable. In any company there is information you are supposed to know and then what you do know, which is much greater. Everyone knows in such cases who are the over promoted people, who are the intelligent people. Who is having an affair with who the list is huge and there is no way these people could not have known more than they are confessing to. As for software the idea that software and hardware cannot go wrong is simply beyond belief. Anyone in IT would know that a huge system like Horizon working over such a large network would be inevitably going to have bugs and glitches causing errors. Databases, people can always go in to the backend of a database, the only issue is who would have the login permissions to do so.
I think it fair, if now you now someones in jail, and you new, that wrong, just for starter you should, doing rest of jail time, with no prole, depending how back it was re-starting time a fresh, just for starters
No ITV, £15000 DID NOT go missing from her account. £15000 was lost from her account due to the Post office and its poor systems, and their subsequent cover up. Please get it right.
2:42 How did Chris Aujard get to ‘individual distress’ from auditors saying the conviction is unsafe? Was he referring to the investigators individual distress? Was Chris suggesting that ‘individual distress’ was less important than the reputation of the POL? I think he was.
What an outrageous response from Chris let alone a General Council!
He and his team misled the courts and I hope he feels the full force of the law for doing so.
Corruption at a high level , they couldn't careless what they put all those postmasters and their families, it's unacceptable.
Andrew Bridgen raised this with Tony Blair years ago. Government both Labour and Conservative have permitted this to continue and neither should be returned to power ever again..
Why are these people not in prison??
Sue him.
My big questions is what happened to and exactly how much money was miss managed and will all of the people who benefited from this will return the money back how come no one’s even saying this it kind of like the FBX thing the money stolen is never mentioned or returned
It’s my question too. I think I heard that it landed up in a suspense account that was never cleared! and included in profit reporting. Even the accounting practices need investigation
This is the country we live in and how ordinary people are treated. And this is just a tiny part of the tip of the iceberg.
Shame! 😢
Vennels, her board and Fujitsu for prison. Now.
Wherever you go you find good and bad. Except, seemingly, at the PO at board level. Soulless, self-serving, odious, amoral, and I think I might go so far as to say evil ………. this is the proverbial car crash which I have been glued to for over a decade now, painfully so. Credit to ITV for finally championing the cause, albeit 11 years after I, a lowly Private Eye reader, first learned of it. No credit to all the other channels who did sod all.
Why is Paula Vennells not in jail?
Heartbreaking.
She needs fully compensated and her business reopened
the people that covered this up should go to jail for that total time of all the convicted people
It’s not just that the post office knowing about the accounts being alterable and the convictions being unsafe.
We also need to look if Fujitsu staff altered those accounts.
The SPMs should take a civil action against senior PO management and Fujitsu.
What about the role Ed Davey had, is it to be ignored ??
Unbelievable and I wonder if that lawyer is still in practice?
The more we hear about this scandal the worse the case against the PO top brass gets.
I'll never use the post office again
Top lawyer top crook/criminal is a better description.
Absolutely unbelievable in the UK and the police really need to take over this 😢
They should get together and take a private prosecution against all involved.
All these people should sue for wrongful convictions plus wrongful imprisonment!
Strip them of their ill-gotten wealth - then jail them.
Omg! I really feel Alison's pain.
People keep mentioning compensation. There are three elements. Firstly, being reimbursed for the monies these sub-postmasters/mistresses had to find to make up for these 'apparent' losses. Secondly, to then seek compensation for the false imprisonment, stress, ill-health etc. etc. that all this has caused to the individual AND their families. Thirdly a trial, and hopefully conviction of all those any way involved in all this. Their defence not paid for by the Post Office, Union... would be utopia.
No-one's asking where these tapes come from - is it more of the "tampon" king (of Charles saying he wanted to be Camilla's-)? Maybe someone from the saturation surveillance state is passing the buck, or settling scores, or - & god forbid this, that they have a sense of right & wrong....
the post office's lawyer should be sent behind bars
These people like this lawyer and Paul’s Vennels should be in PRISON
The criminal justice system itself is substantially to blame as well: it's well known that barristers, faced with a case that's going to be hard to defend, will advise clients to plead guilty, because this dramatically reduces their chance of being sent to prison: to plead not guilty and try to fight your way through a difficult case can lead the court to suppose that you've deliberately wasted time and public money, which they will punish accordingly.
The defendant being assumed innocent until being proved guilty is a complete fiction.
tq..real need answer/asset on actually are all in..tq..appeiciate each serius law had in..thank you
What the Flip were the defence lawyers doing? Obviously not looking at the evidence. Prosecute them too.
I think this will be a good test of the UK justice system.
I want real justice for post office scandal victims now
Chris Aujard APPEARS to be guilty of silo mentality. "Not my problem, mate."
Sinful and CRIMINAL
The post office was a criminal organisation, under criminal management they ignored the law, tried to silence MPs, lied to parliament under oath,sacked financial auditors to stop an investigation, stole from postmasters while accusing them of criminality while letting them go to jail,commit suicide while stealing their personal savings for themselves. All the management of the post office since the mid 90s need to be investigated, assets seized and sent to trial, if found guilty they should then receive appropriate and long jail sentences with their assets given to their victims. This country is not putins Russia. Their actions were long term and deliberate. It’s disgusting and evil. The post office is run by evil and deliberate criminals. Being middle class and white does not excuse a thing.
I see a Class Action developing against their lawyers
Here in the US we have to plea out too even if we innocent. 97% of cases end in pleas. Truth and justice my balls
What is still not known is exactly what the Horizon system's faults were, and how and why they happened. The can of worms keeps slowly opening.
So unprofessional and evil
Please prosecute Chris Aujurd. This is the most obscene corruption I’ve ever seen
Raise up mighty Senegal... Rise up mighty Africa
I knew the POL rep would NOT be from England. He was Australian. (Chris Aujurd).
This is a clear caee of the ultimate in selfish interest !! The old saying Much wants More.
At this rate we’ll have to build HMP post office horizon. As it seems so many people are corrupted by this.
Greed and corruption what poor human beings they are.
This lawyer should be locked up on bread & water FOR GOOD, & family deported
The lawyer’s actions are complicit and not his family - you being rac1st is also a problem.
but the lawyers of these people are just so guilty for allowing them to plead guilty without any evidence, this is why i say everyday--show me an honest lawyer
@@lloydbrowne6042 guilty by association. You would not marry one, and neither would I
@@eisbeinGermany impossible
@@guff9567 dear good god, presumably you understand how the law works and why we need the law and lawyers. Or do you think unicorns are real.
Love must reign
What about the guy who killed his wife as a postmaster because of the financial stress it caused him.
yes you knew that
“Seems to be the definition of a coverup.” What a jerk; a politician who stands in pouring rain and says “Seems I am getting wet.”