Finale: Rings of Power Season 2 Ep. 08 'Shadow and Flame' with Philip 'Nemesis' Chase
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ต.ค. 2024
- @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy (the nefarious Dr. Fantasy himself... or is he Sauron?) and I continue our spoiler discussions about Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Season Two.
This time we are discussing the eighth and final episode of Season Two, Episode Eight 'Shadow and Flame'. Delightfully I had just had some wisdom teeth removed the day before, so that was giving me a bit of trouble speaking.
Previous Rings of Power Chats:
S1 E1 • Discussion of Rings of...
S1 E2 - • Rings of Power Ep. 02 ...
S1 E3 - • Discussion of Rings of...
S1 E4 - • Rings of Power Ep. 04 ...
S1 E5 - • Discussion of Rings of...
S1 E6 - • Rings of Power Ep. 06 ...
S1 E7 - • Discussion of Rings of...
S1 E8 - • Rings of Power Ep. 08 ...
S2 E1 - • Discussion with A Crit...
S2E2 - • Rings of Power Season ...
S2 E3 - • Discussion with A Crit...
S2 E4 - • Rings of Power Season ...
S2 E5 - • Discussion with A Crit...
S2 E6 - • Rings of Power Season ...
S2 E7 - • Discussion with A Crit...
S2 E8 -
If you would like to buy me a coffee or a book, Support me on Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/crit...
Intro and Music by Professor Trip.
#RoP #lotrrop #lotr
Watching you guys has also greatly enhanced my enjoyment and understanding of the series as well, so thank you!
I love this episode so much!
Thank you both for doing this, it's been a pleasure to listen to a discussion free of all the bs surrounding this show
You are very welcome; thank you for watching. It is really nice to know that at least some people enjoyed our discussions.
Thanks for the discussion, here and Rings&Realms have been my Shire in which I could have a sane discussion and some fun while the rest of the world is burning.
You are very welcome. I am looking forward to watching Rings and Realms when I get a chance. I greatly enjoy their analysis. Thanks for watching our chats, I am really pleased that you enjoyed them.
Thanks again for doing this. I enjoyed both seasons and found this season to be a big improvement (same for WoT). Between your recaps and House of R it lets me live in the world a little longer and gain a deeper understanding of all things fantasy!
@nickdeboer4182 thank you very much, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussions.
Thanks for the lovely commentsry you guys do on the show! Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts.
I have a different opinion on the mystery box element, especially with Halbrand in season 1. I thought it was very clever what they did, because the viewer is being deceived alongside Galadriel. There are so many signals that Halbrand is Sauron, but I chose to ignore them first time around because I liked Halbrand and didnt want him to be evil (reminiscent of what Celebrimbor said). Then on the rewatch you can really see the darkness simmering below the surface of the character and I was captivated by Halbrand almost every scene he was in.
@hundop9195 thanks for watching. I can't help it; I genuinely loathe mystery box storytelling. I enjoyed the Sauron / Celebrimbor thread so much more because the story didn't hide Annatar's true character from the viewer. That level of dramatic irony appeals to me a lot more.
However, I am really happy you enjoy it. Life would be dull if we all liked exactly the same things.
I've thoroughly enjoyed your insightful discussions on the Rings of Power. Its been so refreshing listening to a discussion about the show that doesn't fall into hateful discourse - there is far to much of that.
On the mystery box topic, i enjoy it when it is executed well and the mystery is well laid down in the narrative. I think how Wheel of Time and this show has done it has been flawed and at times lazy writing and hasn't really worked, but apart from that, I really enjoy Rings of Power. The Annatar/Celebrimbor stuff has been quality drama.
I am not sure that our discussions rose to the level of insightful, but I will gratefully take the compliment. Thank you for watching.
I think WoT's 'who is the dragon?' mystery box worked slightly better than RoP's season one, but I still think it is the 'wrong' focus and detracts from the other threads.
My major issue is that the mystery box always seems to end up a primary focus rather than be a piece of background mystery that is slowly resolved. It can steal focus from the events in each episode until it is resolved.
Then again, I am not a fan of the technique.
Thank you guys so much for all your commentary.
I've enjoyed this season quite a bit even though I thought the pace was uneven in places.
The Harfoot/Stranger story mostly bored me this season, although they were 3 of my favorite characters last season.
The other story lines did not disappoint despite some nitpicks. For example, I could not care less about the Isildur love triangle.
Here's looking forward to the next season!
@andreamiller3578 thank you very much for watching along with us. I hope that Philip and I will be commenting on season 3 when it rolls around.
Fun and enlightening discussion as always! I'm always so delighted that y'all are amongst the rare voices that recognize that criticism starts with analysis, not just with like/dislike.
I was curious though: maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, but you seemed to think that Sauron killing Glug was reducible to the "villainous tyrant callously kills the messenger when the news is bad" trope. But I didn't think that was all there was to it - indeed I kinda didn't read that in there at all. To me, it was something very different, and much more thematically resonant: I think Sauron was making an example of someone who dared imply that the welfare of the Uruk was of any significance, that the Uruk were anything but slaves to Sauron's will to dominate (and perhaps even nipping an insurrectionary tendency in the bud).
To put it differently (and return directly to the text): Sauron patiently listens to the report as Glug says, "We are overwhelmed, Lord Sauron. The Dwarves have secured the Elves' retreat." It is only when he begins the next statement - "If we pursue, many Uruks - " that he even begins to turn towards him, and then shanks him as soon as he's about to say out loud that Uruks will suffer even greater losses. So, I don't think Sauron kills him for delivering the news that this isn't a complete strategic win (because, after all, it already has been mostly a win for him anyway). Rather, he kills him for daring to suggest that the suffering of the Uruks is a valid reason not to pursue - indeed, for even putting the following of an order to pursue into the conditional form at all.
Edit to add: I think there's even a reading of this scene where we can connect it to the S2 prologue. Sauron may well remember that it was the Lord Farquad-esque "some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make" part of his speech that was the last straw in the original Uruk coup. Perhaps now, he has learned his lesson and is extra sensitive to even allowing an Uruk to say out loud that his orders will result in their death. There are no Uruk casualties in Ba Sing Sauron.
Very interesting interpretation. I hadn't considered that. I think that can run concurrently with the villain trope I mentioned. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive.
Both interpretations have merit, and neither one cancels out the other. I don't think it is only or just one, it can be both.
The suggestion that someone would question or defy his orders, I believe, is something that Sauron will not countenance; not because it could raise potential unrest, but because he believes his authority is absolute. He does not care about the orcs, he doesn't value their lives, and it is not a consideration that merits discussion or time for him. He then demonstrates this by killing one of his own soldiers for having the temerity to speak out of place and to possibly question his orders.
Great discussion. I think Kemen could be the first leader of the black numenorean, the ancestor of the mouth of Sauron. And I though the valley at the end could be Lothlórien, because Elrond speak about the place being protect by the Ring. But probably I'm wrong in both cases.
Interesting theories... we will have to see who ends up being right 😁 but as long as Philip is always wrong, I will be happy. 😎
This season looked excellent, the acting was spot on, I enjoyed it for what they could show me, but given the constraints on what they could or couldn't do I don't understand why they chose to cover as many story lines as they did. I personally would have concentrated solely on the elves, dwarves, orcs and sauron.
Also most people don't have the inclination or time to reflect on a show and be nuanced in their praise or criticism hence the amount of "it was amazing" or "it was bad writing I hate it" types of reaction.
As ever it was great to listen to you and philip chat.
This show has been some of the most fun I’ve been able to have with my family in a while. Sitting down and enjoying the impressive visuals, acting, and certain aspects of the storytelling while also enjoying the goofier stuff and aspects we disagree about accuracy on has led me to looking for videos to hear other people’s thoughts on it. These videos have been great for that, really enjoyed hearing both of your thoughts on the show this season. Thank you for discussing it honestly acknowledging good and bad aspects while also not trying to say it should be enjoyed or hated. It’s really refreshing.
I am really pleased that you have enjoyed our discussions.
People will always have individual tastes and preferences, but there is a lot going on in the show and we thought it was worth discussing.
Though I feel a bit out my depth in providing a comment on this video, seeing that it is between two incredible scholars of fantasy and literature, I have found a unique joy in watching the first two seasons of ROP. As a lifelong devotee to the universe Tolkien has created, I have been watching this show through the eyes of my wife, a person who gives short shrift to my fascination with Middle-Earth. With that being said, this series is one of her favorites. Certainly there are times when I want to shake my head at the way the lore is presented, but I find myself sitting in utter joy watching someone who is unfamiliar with the grander mythos of the saga slowly come to fall in love with this story. Quibbles aside, to hear the name Manwe spoken aloud on a legitimate television show and to see Tom Bombadil brought to life forces me to smile. If anything, I hope Season 2 is an auspicious entry in the seasons to come. Cheers to both A.P. and Dr. Chase. You have both provided me with hours of education as well as entertainment. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
It is really wonderful that your wife is enjoying the show and it is now something that you can share. All the very best to you.
I love the Gandalf/Harfoots story! I also enjoyed the mystery surrounding the stranger.
That is great to hear.
I am glad that someone enjoyed them. Unfortunately, they are just not to my taste, but then again, if the show delivered exactly what I wanted, then maybe you wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. Thanks for watching.
I will be sad when they will not renew for a third season
There seems to be some indication that they are renewing for season 3, and have hired an almost entirely new writers' room.
So I am hopeful.
The series has spent 2 seasons on the Hobbit and Gandalf story and I cannot bring myself to care. I love every other storyline in this season (even Arondir and Isildur who were pretty neglected) but I am bored by this one. I don't see how the Hobbits can contribute to the greater story from now on and I hope they are left alone for a while, and I am even less interested in the Gandalf story without them. Is the entirety of the next season going to be Gandalf training to defeat the Blue Wizard? I don't see how he can beat the Blue Wizard AND link up with the rest of the story in a single season at the pace they have been taking his plot.
They have a five season arc, so it will be interesting to see what they do to pull things together over that time frame. But I have enjoyed the majority of the other arcs, so I am willing to extend patience to wait and see. We will have the full picture once the entire show is done.
Thanks for watching.
I have come to the conclusion that the writing is bad because of the hackneyed dialog, the numerous internal inconsistencies and plot holes, the countless callbacks to the movie trilogies, and the failure of any of the numerous plot lines to engage or entertain over two entire seasons. We regularly rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogies, but just as we haven't rewatched season 1, we won't ever be revisiting season 2 either.
@janatman as is your right.
Although it is worth pointing out that Jackson also included hackneyed dialogue, plot holes, and inconsistencies, and made a number of callbacks to the Bakshi animated film. It becomes a question of balance, and it is clear that the balance in RoP is not one that you enjoy.
But if you are not enjoying it, then not watching it seems the best course of action.
Life is too short to spend time watching a show that isn't entertaining you.
I hope you enjoyed our discussions at least.
@@ACriticalDragon Very much, so many thanks to you both for sharing your reflections. Just as with season 1, I've enjoyed the discussions about the show more than actual show itself and appreciate the opportunity to learn about the original lore which I haven't read.
@janatman thanks for watching. I am glad that you enjoyed that at least. 😀