Counterbored Surplus Rifle Barrels
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- What are they and why were they counterbored?
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Get your own Teslong Rifle borescope here: amzn.to/3XmK3Is
Pacific Tool & Gauge makes custom barrel counter bore tool bits. No need to set up a jig.
The muzzle rifling in many WWII Eastern Front Mosin and Mauser rifles were eroded by muzzles being exposed to the elements as well as steel cleaning rods being used without a muzzle protector. Usually the lands are damaged about an inch or so down the barrel. The gases escaping unevenly in this area throws the bullet in odd directions. Counter-boring was a common fix by Germany and the Soviets during WWII when every rifle was needed. Counter-boring not only creates crisp grooves and lands at the end of the counter-bore section but also concentrically evens out the section of smooth bore at the end of the barrel so the gas escapes evenly around the projectile as it exits. Counter-bored rifles can be as accurate as a non counter-bored rifle if performed correctly.
Counterboring had its place. Between corrosive ammo and aggressive cleaning with metal cleaning rods (those little guide caps were easily lost) the rifling at the muzzle gets really torn up. Nowadays, the smartest thing for any Mosin owner to do is just use a boresnake from the breech end. I'll also add a tip: don't use bore foam on pitted barrels! Pitting in a bore can, over time, be partially filled in with fouling that is not removed with a normal cleaning routine due to patches and brushes simply not going that deep. People who have deep-cleaned their pitted barrels have sometimes reported loss of accuracy. The best way to clean these barrels is with conventional methods.
Never enough education. Thank You Sir.
I learned a lot today. Thanks.
Muzzles on old rifles (pre-non-corrosive primers) are often eroded (more) at each end of a barrel. To improve (not cure) the accuracy problem, counter-boring the muzzle and running a bore reamer past the chamber can help. My old .30 Gov't. Krag-Jorgensen needed a replacement barrel from primer/powder erosion. I found one dirt-cheap (used) and so it was worth it to me.
Superbly informative stuff man, Ioved seeing the bore camera view too
I'm an East Tennessee hillbilly. I understood what you said with ease.
I figured you'd have no problem.
@@deuceandguns I speak fluent banjo, because I attempt to play one. I'm so used to it, I translated when we went on a school trip to New Orleans and took a tour of the bayou. Apparently, listening to drink toothless hillbillies works well for understanding maybe drunk toothless Cajuns speaking English.
I’m from south east Kentucky so that sounded normal to me. We really do have our own language but I’m proud of my home.
I'm from Tidewater Virginia.
Is there supposed to be something difficult to understand here?
BrotherMan!❤
I’m Western NC Hillbilly I got it! I’ve had Mosins for 25 years and NEVER knew that was a bore protector!! Thanks
Loved and enjoyed all of it and learned something too.
I have a 1898 dated 1891mosin with finnish stock and FA stamp. it's counter bored. shoots well. my first mosin purchased through sportsman's guide many years ago. shipped right to my door since it's an antique.
Your Mosin sounds awesome. It's amazing that you can run down to an Academy Sports and buy new ammo for your 126 year old rifle, then probably ring steel at 100 yards with it. Surplus firearms sure make for a great hobby.
I had a short Mosen counterbored when I got it , it shot well , quite accurate .
Most don't remember soap and water in a brush for corrosive ammunition. Works. Then dry the bore with patches and oil squeezed. It works.
Corrosive ammo is alkaline. Vinegar will neutralize it, though it will also take off bluing if you're not careful.
@@WardenWolf Neutralizing water-soluble salts? Really? Where did you get your chemistry "degree"? Ever gotten table salt on your hands? Did you wash your hands with water or soak them in acid to "neutralize" salt? Honestly, it's potassium and sodium salts - plain hot water (no soap) is all you need.
Good info Deuce!!
Hey from Australia. My boys looked over my shoulder and were stoked to see all those Mosins. I only have Enfields here hah
As someone who has examples of both the Enfield is the superior rifle in all ways except for the price of ammo.
Thank you for the lesson
Great video thanks for sharing
Man, those barrels looked like the surface of the moon through that borescope.
Thank you for the education.
Nice work.
So there's actually a chance I can get a functional Mosin for under a bill? Neat.
Yes
3:45 $30??!!….I hate you 😂
I used to buy WWII military rifles for about $50 each. Another $20 for a 95% inletted training stock by Fajen or Bishop, a few hours tuning the rifle and finishing the stock produces beautiful, accurate scoped sporting rifles for under $200.
You had me messed up 😂 at the beginning
Interesting information
I read an article in Polish firearms magazine, that in garrisons Mosins had been cleaned all at once, one after another, while being placed in a vice and always from the front. Of course, soldiers in the field cleaned their rifles individually. Claening rods ware just bare steel, so crown damage occured quite often.
Meanwhile Mauser rifles had only a section of cleaning rod attached. Three of these had been screwed together to clean a rifle's bore, two sections for a carbine. That was enough at garrisons, but in the field it was huge pain it the a**. To counter this issue, Germans issued their soldiers individual cleaning kits with "bore snakes" - aluminium lined piece of chain, that looked quite like rosary beads. Probably this is why Mauser rifles ware counter bored much less often, and especially captured ones, that ware picked up without it's cleaning kit. Soldiers had them stored in separate belt pouch.
Interesting video and JUST WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR!!!! A few years ago I acquired a old interesting commercial Mauser made by a gunsmithing guild associated with Krupp, it had a BEAUTIFULLY MACHINED BARREL!! The barrel was octagon shape where it screwed into the receiver then about a third of the way down the barrel it was round. It had a raised rib that ran the whole length of the barrel, it was MACHINED that way with express rear sight was dovetailed to the barrel and the front sight was a small continuous raise of the barrel rib with it slotted for interchangeable front sight posts. The bolt was of the spoon or butter knife handle style bolt handle with a little engraving on it as well as all over the rifle, the engraving was subtle. It has gold plated twin set triggers. There are serial numbers on most of the larger parts: barrel, receiver, bolt, gas shield, magazine well and the trigger assembly and they ALL MATCH. What makes it MORE SPECIAL it's in 7mm Mauser and proof marking date it PREWWII (crown over N). It's a NEAT rifle but someone screwed up the first inch or so inside the end of the barrel. It made me think that someone used the end of the barrel to POKE the dangerous animal he just shot and cleaned the outside of the barrel and NOT INSIDE, CLEANED at a much later date allowing TERRIBLE RUST TO SET IN. I had heard about the COUNTERBORING but not much about it!!! Do you think it should work for ME and my problem?!!! I hope so it would be SHAME to let all this TLC and OLD WORLD CRAFTSMANSHIP go to WASTE.!!!😮😢
Sounds like one we had in the shop about 18 years ago.
Counterboring would probably help, but the problem is nobody i really does it anymore and I don't know of anyone in the US who does. You might be able to find some grizzled old gunsmith somewhere who can do it, though. I'd suggest having it relined (existing rifling drilled out and a sleeve inserted with new rifling) instead, but I'm not sure if anyone makes 7mm liners. The most ridiculous Mauser I've ever seen was a Mauser 98 rebarreled for 22-250. It was a heavy-barrel bench gun, in a benchrest stock. It was just ridiculous. I mean, of all the calibers to convert a Mauser to, why that?
@@WardenWolf Thank you for your input. Because of the exterior shape of the barrel I wonder if it would fit in the lathe, it's not ROUND well only part of it. What about the full length rib on top wouldn't that cause a problem?!! I guess rechambering it for 6.5 Swedish wouldn't be bad if there are liners in that caliber?! No real hurry, I had a few more TOYS to work on and play with!!!!😁👍
Good video
Thanks for the video deuce i have an old 9130 i bought years ago and it has a counterbore barrel, i was kinda upset when i first saw it then i did some research and saw the counterbore comment its a Finnish capture it has the metal sling swivels took me a while to figure that one out too thanks for the video👍
You've got an interesting rifle there.
The crown was damaged once in a while by impact but the thing that damaged the end of the rifling the most was cleaning with a steel rod that wore away the first inch and a half to 2 inches of rifling.
I have a hard time believing that, barrels are pretty hard steel, cleaning rods will be much softer, it would take the American doctrine to wear a barrel out lol
fuddlore
Both my M44 and M91/30 have next to perfect bores and crowns, neither apparently never saw much use. I know there are counter bored versions out there, but I've personally never seen one.
I had a counterbored Mosin 91/30 that was very accurate. It was counterbored about 2 1/2”
Nice MN91/30 sniper on the wall. Was that pointer a 182gr AP Heavy ball?
I bought two m44 at the retaliative same time. On counter bored, one not. Sold the Counter bored one. Both in good shape from a visual. But think I did the right thing.
I bought an M38 from a gun store about five years ago that nobody bought it because they thought the barrel was worn out and it was counter bored.
Thy deuce. Where did you find those orange plastic holder.
When it comes to muzzle testing rifles, I have learned long ago not to trust that result solely. I have a Savage Sporter in 25-20. The rifle shoots 1 inch groups at 75 yards, but the muzzle eats the bullet. Same with my Savage 340, same with my Marlin Camp Carbine
I have Savage 24c (22-20) and I love that thing. I also have a Marlin 44mag, the 100th anniversary edition, and it shoots tight groups. Great guns.
I have an old Chinesearmy surplus FN Mauser that has been counterbored half the barrel length.
It isn't just Mosens that were counter bored, it was common practice with most adults surplus. I personally go with the theory that it's an attempt to counter damage caused by the metal cleaning rods included with the rifles.
The cleaning rods don't damage the bore or crown.....it's damn near impossible to do that kind of damage
Actually informative where I was afraid the whole barrel was counter bored.
I owned a counter- bored Mosin rifle. It shot fine, it was just unnerving to look at the end of the barrel.
What we call coning on a muzzle loader, does away with the need for a short starter.
They sell tools to cone the muzzle loader by hand
My dad had a uruguayan contract k98k that was counter bored, interesting
Bought my Mosin's years ago and have never checked for that.
Without going to the safe I know I have both lengths of that rifle.
Questions
With accuracy aside are they safe to shoot ?
Will a new crown on the muzzle fix this issue ?
How many rounds will it take to do more damage than already there ?
Having a damaged crown won't impact the safety unless it's so damaged it's obstructing the bore. It would take a few hundred rounds to notice an additional crown damage but it would be slow.
@@deuceandguns Thank you very much :-))
Her: "It's my first time"
Also her: 2:20
Ha! I almost made a joke about that but I'm already on TH-cam's naughty list so I try to keep it family friendly.
Why didn't they just recrown the rifles? Is the counterboring done to make sort of a recessed target crown? If so, why not have this type of crown to start with?
I assume to keep labor and cost as low as possible they applied a one size fits all approach. Any rifle with a damaged crown got put in a pile to be counterbored. Otherwise, a standard crown was sufficient.
Does a properly counter bored rifle still shoot well ?
Yep, once counterbored it should be as accurate as it was when new...As long as the rest of the barrel was in good shape.
Almost seems like counter bored would be better than even a recessed crown for protecting it
This certainly would be the cheapest way for a quick fix.. Is there not a process of chrome electroplating the bore then resurfacing or re-rifling the inside?? I would think that most crown damage would be from corrosive ammo and the end of that barrel cooling the fastest and drawing moisture to it so corrosion of the metal starts there first..
my father used a string with a patch tied in the middle
Is there any spare new unused barrel to have it rebarreled
I'm not sure about new surplus barrels but there are a few companies that make brand new barrels for the Mosin Nagant.
Yeah no probably not...but you can have a brand new barrel made and installed on it..some people think that putting a new barrel on a mosin will destroy its collector value but I doubt it as many are not considered collector pieces due to the amount made and that they were rushed production during war to quickly arm soldiers so the quality varies sometimes...but if you want a marksmanship grouping then the best bet would be a new modern made barrel for your mosin
The most damaging thing too the mosys was there were issued a rough string
With a brush screwed on the end. Pulling this was like a saw it bit into the crown
! On one side caueing uneven gases. Making the bullet fly off target
If done right it realy does work never saw a mauser done maybe captured
I have sen french mas if you want a nice gun. Take the butt plate off the stock serial number is penciled on it and the butt cap. Is all your numbers macth you probally bought a great gun
It's cheaper to counterbore a barrel than to replace it. And considering how many Mosins the USSR made, it only makes sense, especially during a war.
They’d be more likely to use a reamer with a well fitted pilot to do this. The end-mill is unlikely to do this accurately. Probably much of the damage is caused by cleaning rods.
Weird. Seems like on the arsenal refurbs itd be cheaper n quicker to recrown vrs counter.
The bayonet wouldn't fit correctly if the barrel was shortened with a recrown.
You skipped over re-lining barrels or over-boring them to different "wildcat" calibers. Re-linering barrels is usually too expensive for surplus rifles, but it is POSSIBLE. Very common is to rebore say the 7x57mm Mauser with a "shot-out" or other-wise damaged barrel to 7.62x57 or the .30x57. The 8x57 Mauser is often rebored and re-chambered to the ".35 Whelen" or .35/.06. The "Mauser" is really a Mannlicher action, but quite robust and lends itself to accurate rifles for not a ton of money. The steel in Russian, Japanese, and Eastern European rifles usually isn't as high a quality as German, Austrian, Polish, Czech, or Slovakian barrels. Consult a GOOD RELIABLE gunsmith before opening your wallet!
The muzzle isn't the first part of the barrel to wear out, the throat is. If the muzzle is worn to the point that a bullet will slide in easily, that weapon is way past useless and I would question the action and bolt face.
Guns period wear end to end. Chamber side then barrel end in. So basically outside in to middle. The rifling will always wear at both ends first then work way in.
Evaporust the barrel.
Man we need to buy you a chalkboard. Lol. Wouldnt the notch in a muzzle as a bullet exits cause it to become destabilized in flight, asking for a friend. Not really, asking for myself truthfully. Now I'm going to have to go check my mossie, as I don't know if its counterbored or not, but its a pie plate shooter @ 100 yds, so not the best. But it has extremely clean rifleing in the bore, but I pull the bolt an clean it from the rear anyway with aftermarket rod an cleaning supplys. Thx for the vid an the knowledge. P.S. It was our standby deer rifle at camp, good enough for camp meat tho.
I guess if the crown were damaged enough, it could destabilize the round vs. simply knock it off course. Also, I've got more than one old Mosin wirh a bore so bad a pie plate shot at 100yards would be pure luck, so yours is probably average for surplus Mosin Nagant.
Just love the way you and the commenters oog and aah over these junk Mosins. For what they sale for you can (and should) buy American. I just purchased a Remington 700 low serial # at the gun show for $325.00 with a Red field scope that will out shoot these Mosin junkers. Do you realize importers pay around $3.00 each for Mosins and about 15.00 each import tax? What a markup!!!! But to each his own.
It has been illegal to import these into the US for about 10 years now and that's the reason they cost so much. FYI, I stopped buying them once they hit the $100 mark.
30 buck.... God bless.
I guess I missed the part as to WHY the weapon is counter bored in the first place?????
It has a damaged crown and this is how they decided to repair it.
After years of firing steel bullets down a steel barrel doesn't help either. Thanks for the come back.
В России есть переточенные винтовки Мосина в 410 калибр!!!
I understood and iam not even American
Why is he pronouncing it Mohz-ni? The "n" is on the end. Mow-zeen. If you are including the Nagant part, the "t" is siilent. Nuh-gahn.
Couldn't they just recrown it?
They totally could in all but the most severe cases. I assume they just set up a counterbore jig and any rifle that need a touch-up just got the full send vs. a more specialized treatment. It's probably part of that old Soviet simplicity.
The problem is sometimes the damage goes deeper than the crown, necessitating a counterbore.