How One Player Swept Every Record in Tetris By Inventing a New Technique
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
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Tetris has been around for decades, and it's been ran as a serious esport for the last 12 years, but nothing has set world records or high scores as prominent as the new rolling technique, blowing everything else out of the water.
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Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:45 - Sponsor
02:28 - Technical Analysis
05:44 - Record Types
07:09 - High Score Records
13:16 - Competitive Performance
14:43 - The Future
GameVentures offers crowd funded bounties for achievements in video games, anyone is free to post a bounty and then other people can donate to the payout. It's where I posted the initial Tetris bounty, and you can find it here: gameventures.org/bounty/01FNA...
Correction: I got the date of Cheez's World First Level 44 wrong, it should be August 30, 2021, not August 30, 2020.
Music by Novadrome:
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Intro Art by:
www.artstation.com/jvsantovito
Intro Animation by:
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Footage Featured:
Cheez
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/ @cheeztetris
Huffulufugus
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/ huffulufugus
HydrantDude
/ about
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Classic Tetris
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congrats, you joined the prestigious sellout club
Fuckin ACTUAL congrats get paid dude
Honestly proud of you and this. Get that bag man, you deserve it for all the good content
I won't, but I respect the hustle.
Thank goodness you use chapters
*This video omits the most important piece of information - how rolling is performed.* What's said in the intro equates to "they do unknown magic with their fingers to force the d-pad into thumb"
that “unknown magic” is called pushing i’m pretty sure
"this is just natural for me" i mean, at that level of sheer speed and reflexes you kinda need to zone out and focus purely on it to a degree. That level of gameplay is pure instinct, no real thought behind anything just action.
They really mastered the Ultra Instinct IRL, huh.
@@JadeJuno if it wasnt for my roommate watching DBSuper i'd have no idea what you were talking about lol...
But yeah, basically. Ive met a couple people that play tetris not quite to this level but pretty dang high up there and once they get to a certain point they completely zone out. Its kinda funny tbh lol
@@vineheart01 exactly, much like in a rhythm game there’s a point at which our brain can’t process the movements consciously and you have to rely entirely on muscle memory and reflexes. It’s fascinating but as someone who’s suffered from an RSI before it pains me just to think about doing it lol
Shout out to Rob Scallon, a guitarist and drummer on TH-cam, for talking to Jonas and birthing this style
Bro I remember when the bass/guitar guy Rob stumbled onto the tech and it was speculated that rolling could be changed slightly to be viable. It was insane to see the growth of this tech from a collab video with the world's best.
Ah, this helps explain (at least partially) why a more obvious center gap isn't used more often at the higher speeds.
you also have the advantage where going to the edge can take any number of presses above 4, you don't have to be nearly so exact at high speeds. i think if there was a true center gap people would still go for the left or the right, it would just be up to preference.
Considering the number of NES Tetris tournaments run outside of the CTWC, I'd wait for the hypothetical issues with not having a line cap to actually materialize before implementing the line cap.
Even framewalking, a somewhat analogous controversial technique from the SM64 community, was in circulation and present in actual WRs before being restricted by the community.
The difference is that frame walking can’t realistically ( or formerly couldnt) be done on official hardware. This isn’t being banned because it isn’t doable to the general public without specialized 3rd party hardware. It’s talked about being banned cause it’s just too good. They’re fundamentally different conversations
@@Ashragi That is a technical difference between these two situations, yes, but I'd argue the fundamental question is the same: Is a technique or strategy so good that special measures need to be taken to limit or mitigate their effectiveness?
I guess, if you want a better analogue, you could compare this to something like wobbling in Melee, and in that case the technique was allowed for years and years before it was eventually banned.
I'm just saying the NES Tetris Community might do well to wait for more data before making these kinds of...heavy handed approaches to limiting a technique's effectiveness.
Personally i wish you had included Fractal’s absolutely incredible push with rolling on PAL 19, at least as a footnote, whether or not you’ll make a video about it when he actually reaches colors
There is likely going to be a full video going over the true kill screen in the future :)
@@Abyssoft we just have to wait until fractal does the POGGERZ game of his life
9:05 That graph says it all. 2021 was insane.
10:27 The record by Cheez was HISTORIC. I still get goosebumps just thinking about it.
My thought on changes to competitive play --
One of the big challenges, from a competitive standpoint, is that every speed bump requires a shift in strategy. You can't play level 18 the same way you play 19, and you definitely can't play 28 the way you play 29.
I see this as an evolution of that dynamic. Tetrises at level 18 are worth far more than even a triple at level 29 (22,800 vs 9000). It's not until you get to level 40+ where you're near equivalent to a tetris at 18.
What this means is that during level 18 (130 lines), you have to focus on efficiency. A good transition is around 500k, and theoretical max is 720k+.
During level 19-28, a very strong game will bring you to that 1.2-1.3M range, with a theoretical max of about 1.5M. For this section, you still need to balance efficiency against survival. You'll see a lot less stacking above the halfway point, meaning that getting two long bars in quick succession will have much lower scoring potential, and the cost of a prolonged dig will both put you at higher risk of topping out and lower your scoring potential more dramatically than it does at level 18. (The difference between 4 singles and a tetris at 18 is 19,760; the difference between 4 singles and a tetris at 28 is 30,160).
At level 29, the potential gain by a tetris continues to grow, but the risk associated with stacking for a tetris grows well beyond a tolerable amount for a competitive environment. There are too many things that can go wrong and cascade into a topout to risk it when you have to make 3 out of 5 chances. Survival - burning singles and doubles to keep the stack low - is prioritized by far over efficiency.
What this all means is that there's roughly equal scoring potential in a competitive setting between level 18 speed, 19 speed, and 29 speed. And this is regardless of skill level -- the rng component is still the great equalizer because it's going to force players into mitigating risk when they're ahead and taking their chances when they fall behind. You simply can't rely on long bars to drop often enough to justify trying to stick to only tetrises. That's true at level 18 too, especially during a drought, even considering that you'll tolerate a higher stack than you do at higher speeds.
During DAS days, a game (in competition) of 400k@18 + 300k@19 was considered strong. With hyper tapping, those thresholds moved to around 500k@18 + 400k@19, plus 3000-5000 after kill screen as needed to close any remIning gap. With the addition of rolling, those thresholds are higher still - I would not be surprised if the meta for competitive play shifted to needing 500k@18 + 500k@19 + 250k@29 to be considered a "very good tournament game", with the very best games reaching into the 600+600+400 range.
There's no need for a change in rules, because if a player hasn't mastered the different skills needed for each stage, they simply won't have a chance. If you're efficient but can't play at 29, you're done. If you're fast but inefficient, you're done. This shift in the meta means that you truly have to master speed and efficiency, while before, players could get away with mastery of one and an ok grasp on the other. (That's why the legendary Jonas vs JD match was so riveting -- Jonas was a master of efficiency but struggled as the speed increased; and JD was less efficient but maintained his pace even as the speed increased.)
I think the resistance to change comes from a mentality that efficiency is the only skill that matters for competition. That was true in the DAS days, but as techniques have evolved, that's simply not the case anymore. Even without level 29 speed, if two players play at equal efficiency but one can access more of the board, they will have more options and inevitably be the stronger player. This is just an evolution of the same idea. Dog won the most CTWC not because he can tap faster, but because he is extraordinarily efficient and can keep up at level 19 speeds. If we see a player as adept at rolling as Cheez, Huff, or any of the others, *and* as efficient as Dog, they will rise to the top instantly.
You put my thoughts into words far better than I could. I would just like to add that rolling seems like it would be an equalizer more than anything. I physically cannot tap buttons as fast as hypertappers and I'm a generally healthy human being, I just can't figure out how to tap buttons that fast. Rolling seems, although it would take more practice, way easier physically on the body and far more accessible of a skill than hypertapping.
500k post and pre is commonly done by hypertappers or even dassers in comp
Also dog is rolling now gege
This still doesn't address the issue of time management in tournaments. We can't have players playing on forever lol
@@isaacowusu4336 'forever'? Cheez's 2.3M was 8 minutes at 29 speed. That feels pretty unlikely to be a common occurrence, even if kill screen survival becomes the new meta for minimum skill needed.
I first started following the CTWC when I saw the video where Joseph Saelee won his first championship and dethroned 7 time winner Joseph Neubauer.
And I've been hooked since then. Its been fun watching the evolution of tetris and seeing the rise of talented players who infused youth into the tetris scene. It was exciting to see players I was familiar with.
My first instinct about the killscreen cap suggestion:
- Make different categories for each
Test some tournaments with the cap, keep others without, and see what the players enjoy more, and see what the viewers enjoy more. Basically, I feel like both variations can be great to play and/or watch, I don't really see a reason why there could be only one or the other (well.... aside from the organizational side of things.. I suppose organizing extra tournaments would be exhausting, so that's kind of a huge drawback)
This is my thought. Make a category for allowing rolling and one that doesn't. Like how the BLJ completely revolutionized SM64, and 70 star bans it for the category, whereas lower star amounts allow it. Making a separate category just makes sense.
I am happy whenever Tetris stuff gets introduced to different audiences but I am pretty sad the PAL version of the game is forgotten so goddamn often. It's like people forget that PAL even exists.
Cries in europe :(
Nobody plays pal versions
@@Blernster fractal
Witch doctor
Given how fractal helped you with the video, I am genuinely surprised that you didn't even mention how rolling completely broke the pal versions
Waiting for him to achieve colors, then I'm likely doing a video about the kill screen.
Amazing video! Forgot to mention most of these dudes, Huff, Cheez, and many more, are playing Goofy Foot. GOOF TROOP dominating those WRs!!! Mad Props TROOP!!!
It's worth letting a few CTMs or a CTWC go through in 2022 with more Rollers than without to see both how they fare in tournament play while more consistently playing other rollers, and to see if they can push killscreen play as far as, say, level 35 or even 40.
Still, I think that there may have to be a cap at -some- point. Watching two rollers do killscreen play could be fun, but there's still a tournament to run at the end of the day. If any two players are able to replicate Cheez's 2.3M run at a tournament with any consistency, there may have to be some kind of upper limit just to make sure things can wrap up on time. As with the first paragraph's comments, they might have to use CTM or something as test tourneys for such limits, whether they're line limits, level limits, or time limits (say, 10 minutes of killscreen play).
"They see me rolling~"
YYOOOOOOO a new Abyssoft video!!!!
Thank you so much for all of the entertainment you provide to this community!!!
I think that tournament and record setting should be separated. You can learn 2 different techniques. One for tournament and one for record setting. It could also be the first to reach X amount wins. First to reach 1.5 million wins, unless a winner has already been found. 1.5 million makes it not impossible for the hyper tapers to put pressure on the rollers. But they are most likely not going to reach that.
As much as I enjoyed this video, I am a bit irked that Rob Scallion was never mentioned in this video. Cheez might have "developed" rolling and made it an actual style, but Rob Scallion birthed the concept and was its creator, at least in my eyes. Without Rob, none of this would have happened.
I can't remember where I saw it, but somebody else did a video on rolling a while back and mentioned him.
Keep on making these vids, YOU'RE *** killing it!
*You're.
@@TheT0nedude THanks BRObeans
This is high quality and informative content, definitely deserves more subs and views.
I really love your videos. Also your transition to your sponsor was funny lol
That was fun to watch, well done
The amount of research and nuance in this video is undeniable. Great job
I remember when Joseph beat Jonas in the Classic Tetris World Championship a couple years ago and it really felt like the death knell for DAS. It's wild how fast rolling seems to be doing the same to hyper tapping. It's a good thing if you ask me though. It's still very much an incredibly difficult skill to master but doesn't have the accompanying crazy high physical demands and strain that hyper tapping does.
I loved it! I had no idea this world of competitive tetris existed! I find it fascinating :D
TLDR: Don't fix what ain't broken.
I don't the rules need to be changed until the problem actually presents itself. Changing the rules preemptively would likely actually just hurt the Tetris community as a whole, because less people would adapt the rolling strategy, which would also slow the climb of the world record. And for all we know another new method may come out that starts to eclipse rolling.
Impressive work sir 👏
11:10 The Third Variant (gd level) has 18 frame perfects on 360 fps
They shouldn't change any rules for competitive Tetris. The best part of any game is watching someone play 29+ and see how far they can get, and it is still really hard for rollers to play
Did they change the rules when Hyper came along and pushed out DAS? How about instead of disadvantaging Rollers for taking the game to new heights we move the skill ceiling up to match the higher level of play. No line cap start games at top level of play at 29. If most of the test of a players skill is being tested at 29+ then play needs to mostly take place at 29+. When a person out of nowhere revolutionized the High Jump by turning his back and arching over the pole they did not change the rules. The other competitors learned the new technique and the skill level of the event rose to new heights. Stifling that rise for non competitive reasons will just mean that every time a player loses to the cap limit the question will be could that have won without it? Was the player robbed of a fair game? If a rule change is so drastic as to change the way the match ends entirely by disadvantaging the players who are by all other standards the best at the game and would have been by the old standard here then the motivations for that change are not in the interest of the players or the community. If you think people will not watch two players duke it out into the 40s+ you have not been paying attention. People watch streamers for hours every day they watch 5+ hour speed runs where there are multiple players switching out because the game is so long. People want to know who the best of the best is we will never know that if you change a fundamental aspect of the competition itself.
*NO LINE CAP!!!!*
I think in person tournaments will be really different from what we've seen these past 2 years, the crowd pressure and the lights really do take a toll on players. We may get lower scores and surprise comebacks from players we thought were forgotten
nes tetris is such a spectacular game considering it’s so old. speedrun communities are brilliant
TH-cam didn't notify me of this video, so that's cool. Good thing i was waiting for it
glad to hear you're full time now. good luck brother
Kill screen has now been reached by multiple players.
But before we do...
Those four words will haunt my soul forever
Have you seen the records now?..it's absolutely insane the level of improvement that occurred
When it comes to tournaments I understand the caution of the new techniques. I just hope it just more entertaining to watch.
dude the abyssoft SHOUTOUT
Keep rollin rollin rollin ah keep rollin rollin rollin
Better explanation of what it is they're doing. Heard all about this rolling being great for 17:34.
stacking out
Honestly one of the most impressive accomplishments you've ever had on the channel. So many records depend largely on rng. Tetris is almost all skill.
That raid ad-read. Prestige indeed.
i didn't know you love raid so much.
Wait there's a true kill screen? Dang, I never knew. I'm excited to learn about this!
wow this is amazing
I’m so furious that you haven’t gone viral yet!!!!
I say that there should be line cap, but I believe it should be super high. Like 500. That way rollers still win since tappers can't reach 500, but it doesn't become a marathon fest.
Correction. NES ntsc runs are 60hz.
For Pal (over half the world) it runs at 50hz.
I think that if a line cap is added it would need to count as a draw for both players. It could encourage players to take risks to secure a win
Never did think about playing this way.... Meanwhile I'm struggling to complete Tetris 999 mode. Shits insane. And that guy started on level 29 in the original? Even more insane
Would have also liked an explanation on how they do rolling. :)
th-cam.com/video/n-BZ5-Q48lE/w-d-xo.html
Just cause you figure out a faster way doesn't mean you instantly drop every block flawlessly like this guy. How does he decide where to drop them so quickly? He's a genius? What's going on here?
Calling him a genius discredits the amount of effort this person put into the game
Cheese and many other people have put in years to get to that level of play.
feels weird being this early to a channel of this quality
idk how long it will take, but keep improving and churning out the quality content and you'll be rivaling the likes of karl jobst and summoning salt one day!
Rolling can put DAS players on the same playing field as hypertappers. If Jonas were still alive he might have gotten another championship.
Isn't surviving the kill screen really interesting? Like it's crazy cool to watch peices fall that fast and you are standing rock solid.
I used to do some kind of rolling like 20 years ago, but it wasn't sophisticated. I was more or less vibrating my leg with the controller on it.
damn thats crazy!
In the high scre section starting at around 7 minutes, almost all the dates are listed as 2020, when they should say 2021
when i was a kid rolling was a whole different thing
Can someone explain to me the different between competitive and high score between 2 people?
Competitive Tetris needs to do something to prevent endless kill screen play. Eventually everyone will be rolling and the games will start on 29. At that point it's a totally different game then we have come to know. Perhaps a mod that drops pieces 2 tiles per frame at level 39.
Frankly, I think we need to adjust competitive play in response to this new technique which is going to change the face of competition anyways.
Face it. Things are gonna be different now. May as well adjust the rules to compensate.
that first german name totally caight me off-guard. i was not expecting "Mark"
7:11 he gets 4 I pieces in quick succession, actually he even gets 4 of them back to back.
I thought you always have to see all 7 of them as if you draw them from a deck, making the maximum "back to back" be 2
That is true in modern Tetris but is not true in NES Tetris. I would say that all pieces in NES Tetris are “truly random”, but the truth is that randomization algorithm has quirks. But you can definitely have bursts of several of the same piece in a row for any shape, and runs of several dozen pieces where some shape never appears. The difference in randomization, rotation rules, scoring, and how quick a dropped piece locks into place make NES Tetris a very different game from modern Tetrises.
To jump on what Keith is mentioning here, not getting pieces happens quite often. Not getting an "I" piece for more than 13 pieces is known as a drought. I believe the current world record is a drought of over 80 pieces. That is a lot of line clears you have to do to stay alive (but probably lose because you were not getting Testrises). This is one of the biggest reasons NES Tetris is so much harder than modern Tetris. You always have to balance not knowing if you are going to hit a drought.
Joseph was practicing rolling, but didn't master it in time for Catch 2021. He SHOULD have it ready in 2022 though...
What version of tetris is that with the 8bit lake in the bg? the one huff plays....
I can't help but feel like this is a game-breaking scenario for tournament play. If both players can go on forever, where's the fun? Line limits, time limits, whatever they come up with, are just going to be unfair no matter how you swing it. Things are going to have to change pretty drastically
Both players cannot go on forever(even in the 6million wr,eric topped out)..it's will never happen..even now with most people using rolling,players make mistakes and top out early.
Here is the new format. Everyone should start on level 29
with the rule at the end. just have it apply when a roller plays against a roller not that difficult
How about timing the players after the kill screen level 29 change. So that once you transition into kill screen, you may let's say have like 10minutes or something to play. With that you may be forced to be aggressive and get more tetrises if you are behind in score. I think a line cap may be to much restrictive.
Or you could do it like Connected does. Once your opponent tops you have 3 minutes to overtake their score or they win.
@@Kalosianfire what if the average player improves so much that they are able to play long into the kill screen. Then it will become an endurance race.
They have implemented a mod where after a certain level it's impossible for a human to react,even the best rollers can't do anything.
Raid??? HELL YEAH get that bag, Abyss. I'm happy for you.
true.
Raid is dope, I sold my wife and cat and kids to level up
People on online games use "go play Tetris" as an insult. Boy, I'd like to see them try
I always thought that this Tetris tournament was about setting a new speed run record for first to one million
Or is it only about high score until kill screen?
Nope it's two people going against each other,the one with the higher score wins..play generally goes beyond the traditional kill screen.
So let's say one player tops out at 1million and then the other player has a score of above 1million, then player 2 wins
"Prestigious set of youtubers."
11:11 👏👏👏
RIP Jonas Neubauer ... he'd be proud
7.37-7.30 ish...good song, where is it from??
What’s the song that plays when cheese goes on a roll?
We legit called that one Rock Montage, it's a song from before we started giving them actual names
@@Abyssoft do you have somewhere where the songs you use are posted?
@@jahblu3144 nova doesn't always post what he makes for me, best bet is to look at his channel linked in the description
about the line cap thing... i think it must be more thought out.
because sure, it's kinda bullshit for the person behind, but it's also unfair for the person in front.
IMO and i'm not a tetris player.
there should be a rule, like in smash, which prevents stalling for excessive ammounts of time, for example if the person reaches the kill screen and doesn't build up at least 4 lines to set up for a tetris, that person will have a limit on how many lines they can clear before having to top out... but again i'm not a tetris player so feel free to ignore me~
To be fair rob scallon invented this technique
Just starting this video. But rob scallion tried to learn how to play tetris at a high level from.... a youtuber(I hate I dont know who rob did the video with), but robs first instinct, as a musician, was to roll his fingers on the d par rather than rapid tapping because it was not ergonomic and hurt after a while.
That was a video by GameScout
@@Abyssoft check out robscallion2 tetris featuring jonas neurbauer.
That was the first place I've seen the beginnings of the rolling technique.
Can you imagine playing tetris 99 with these guys man fuck that im out.
Dog should change his name to pup
so basically tetris players discovered drag clilking on nes
As much as I love this video, I am irked by it being sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends.
It seems to me that, if people want tournament tetris in the future to resemble its current self, line caps are needed. Up till now the killscreen functioned almost as such, and this made going for tetrises optimal. If people get good enough (and I've no doubt they will) playing the killscreen safe indefinitely is an unbeatable (and frankly boring imo) strat that makes tetrises irrelevant.
It should definitely cap quite a ways into the kill screen so that good kill screen play is still valuable. Maybe 100 lines into kill screen so that level 30 is basically the second transition.
This may be stupid but what if the only points post kill screen that count are the ones from Tetrises
Should be called the Cheez Roll
I disagree with the idea of a line cap. If the issue is that games could go on for too long, make it so that if two players are on level 29 and beyond it starts a time limit. I think lv 29+ id already a "sudden death" mode, and having a ticking clock would just add to that while preventing the "endless match" problem.
There is a system in place,after a certain point(after a certain level)where the pieces fall so fast that humans can't react(its been implemented into the game as of recently),even with rolling,there is nothing that players can do.
Cool
Jonas made this all happen. RIP
I don't think that killscreen play is nearly as consistent as some seem to think. Sure, it looks consistent when you watch Cheez play to 2.6M, but there are still tons of games that top out early. Rollers still want a big lead going into the killscreen so they don't have to play deep into it. I don't think it will become boring.
In any case, rolling wasn't mature yet during last year's CTWC. We should see what this year's CTWC looks like before implementing any rule changes.
I still don’t understand how rolling works, I just see guys turning their controllers upside down
I could have spent another paragraph explaining it, but near the beginning I say that they roll their fingers over the back to push the controller into the thumb of their other hand.
Rofl s1mple hero that's amazing
holy shit O_O
2:30