the queen the king and there literal castle is in danger because it is invaded by a simple knight. All your soldiers are useless and now your queen's assasination is completed.
@@bubbles_49 nah if you get fools mated then it's completely your fault. It's when white goes f3 and g4, so black queen can just go to h4 and checkmate you.
Black got lucky there was no Qf3 follow up. The wayward queen is a path to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural. Too many people haven't learned the follow up moves that let you repeatedly try for the mate, forcing bad positioning out of black.
I mean even in 1400 elo people still try to 4 move checkmate. I was triggered so much at some point that I decided to memorize 9 move line top computer moves
@@DrDiabolical000 Trust me, its not good for positioning. Its just a trick opening that can be refuted very easily when someone has seen it once or twice already
Lol someone tried to scholar's mate me in the 900's and after I repelled it he just pushed pawns like mad and didn't develop his kingside and I mated in the center of the board. Once you push back their initial attack they just collapse
It really do be like that. The chess merit badge was one of the first ones I got when I was still in the Boy Scouts and I remember winning most of the games we played in order to get it just by using the scholar’s mate. Now I only use it in the first round that I play against friends of mine just so I can troll them.
I'll still try it every game because every once in a while it works, and when it does it's intensely satisfying. It's not about winning the battle, it's about winning the war.
It's a valid opening that leads to many opportunities at a dirty checkmate after turn 4. Just some people haven't developed the play enough yet. I'm surprised white is playing that opening at 1k and they don't know how to develop it better.
It's a valid opening. There's lots of reasons to like the scholar's mate attack. Mostly because black is forced into reacting for the first 15 moves, and it destroys any rational thought except "get the queen". I've beat a lot of better players because they blundered into my version of the wayward queen thinking they had it made. When played properly, there's more than just the turn 4 checkmate. It also leads to a 7 turn and a 9 turn checkmate unless your opponent trades queens or bongclouds the king. It seems like white is doing a bad thing not developing, but black isn't developing either. They're only reacting.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 Well you must be playing in to some bad players because good players ignore the queen first and develop their pieces. You prevent their attempts of Scholar’s mate and while all their pieces are on the first row you have control over the centre.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 your rating is showing. it’s not a good opening, and you’re not going to get better at the game by playing it 24/7 and hoping to go against someone that doesn’t know what to do.
This inspired me to play a game of chess and got the exact same starting moves from my opponent and forked in the same place to then take the queen. Pog.
@@rahulmistry5019 Yeah at that rating they don't understand how much more powerful two active minor pieces can be. Same with giving up two rooks for a queen.
@bindro afi I know exactly what it is. The point is opening edges are more fleeting than people think. Like people see the eval bar and hear a master level player call a position completely lost and they just accept it. If only it was so simple. Still not excuse to play dubious chess people like Hikaru do it because they are entertainers.
@@boceksiadam positional advantages can be subtle and ephemeral - you might have a positional edge for all the opening stage and then make a blunder and lose a piece - and it was worth nothing. But generally speaking, the Wayward Queen attack just a bad idea because when you move the queen out early you just give your opponent opportunities to develop their pieces with tempo. The queen is one of the weakest pieces, in the sense that it almost always HAS to move if it's attacked. By moving it out early, you are essentially giving your opponent free moves and positional edges or not this is just bad chess. Obviously rules are meant to be broken and there are openings like the Scandanavian which is a serious opening and involves an early queen - but you have to know what you are doing
@@boceksiadam Are you joking? Hikaru has lost to people rated 2400 (chesscom rating) with the bongcloud... The opening is a huge huge huge part of chess which is why any GM worth their salt will tell you to study them rigourously
Normally the level of a GM its of a 2300 or 2400+ but with 2100 you are in a FM or IM rank,still quite an impresive elo,congrats,just a low percent of the whole chess players around the world have achieved the 2100 elo 💪💪
I still see people (occasionally) opening with it at the 1700+ level. It's not like it's a completely terrible opening or anything, some people must like the idea that it totally forces black's first few moves
@@johnmatthewcajilis5524 I don't want to say you're bad, because if you're new of course you're not good by most standards. just keep playing and learning and you will improve quick :)
Some people think this is actually just a basic opening and haven't thought about how many times it forces black to play defensively to avoid getting checkmated. There's a ton of permutations that allow for checkmates just a few turns later as well as on turn 4. It's a stronger attack than it appears.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 Its an opening that punishes people who haven't seen it before. Its that simple. You won't catch a player with it more than once (unless they just flat out aren't actually caring enough to try). And everyone's seen it before. Which means that nobody who actually puts in effort into chess will lose to that.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 dunning Kruger effect... The fact that these people think that openings are relevant even at that level is very amusing. The confidence tho lol It's definitely interesting opening
unless you are rated FAR north of 2000, 'theory and deep move strats' is wasting your time - you should be developing tactical ability same as when you were 'rated that low'
@@helvete_ingres4717 thanks for your opinion. "wasting my time" lol, I'll stick to my IM trainer and the books I read. tactics and theory can be applied as early as 1500. I'm 1680 btw.
I really feel dumb for losing in chess, but knowing that I don't die all the time without even knowing anything about basic strategies gives me a sense of superiority
0:26-0:31 I can hear Levy in my head: "Boss what are you doing, you are up a queen and you are not moving it. It's your strongest piece why don't you use it."
you should never resign at this level, I've won a hopelessly lost game recently - my opponent had a forced checkmate in a few moves, but he missed a mate in one and as soon as he played a move that didn't check my king I won. Even Kramnik lost in such a way once, in a game against Deep Fritz in 2006 where he was in a position to at least draw or even win - and he was the reigning world champion.
yup never resign guys although some people argue that it is not good sportsmanship, but u never know when the oppenent can blunder and turnaround the game, but sometimes when i resign when they really deserve the win cuz they played an amazing midgame outsmarting/ outplaying me, then i usually resign when it's a lost position, also it gives the opponent the satisfaction of checkmating
Seriously, I've seen people doing scholar's mate all the time in my class. Those fools think they can outsmart their mentor. _It may sound like I'm a teacher but I'm not, I'm just the president of our chess club_
I was expecting him to lose his queen, tbh. However, I was disappointed after seeing him give you two pieces for the rook. I just can't imagine why anybody thinks that's a good trade.
@@mastery4667 he didn't "blow up" anything - black is in no danger here. white is completely undeveloped. in general, trading two pieces for a rook isn't good. sometimes in specific positions it's the right decision -- definitely isn't the case here. why are you arguing with me on this? are you an internet expert of chess or something?
As a person who has barely ever played chess thats a pretty cool little 4 turn play, can imagine it’s quite easy to beat for a competent player though.
Lv1.Learning to play chess through schools Lv2.Learning to play chess through books Lv3.Learning to play chess through the Internet Lv4.Learning to play chess through your friends Lv5.Learning to play chess alone MAXLEVEL. LEARNING TO PLAY CHESS THROUGH MEMES AND EXE
You don't have premium? Awwww, how embarrassing. You can't even analyse your moves.
@Detective Lunge cause he's embarrassed 😔
Edit: now when i thought about it, this comment doesn't make sense
Even i dont have a premiun bro .....we analyse our game by ourselfs
You pay for premium when lichess is free? Awwww, how embarrassing. You can't even manage your finances.
@@gaston9943 Don’t worry, we're millionaires
You: r/whoosh
Me: I understand the joke. Well made joke.
I love this pin LMAO
Sugar daddy approved!
Everybody gangsta until the horse spoons the entire family
@@eggeb9891 comically large spoon
the queen the king and there literal castle is in danger because it is invaded by a simple knight. All your soldiers are useless and now your queen's assasination is completed.
I’m the 1KLIKES like
And the building
Scholar's maters when you know the oldest trick in the book: 😲
They wont learn
Wait I thought it was fools mate
@@bubbles_49 nah if you get fools mated then it's completely your fault. It's when white goes f3 and g4, so black queen can just go to h4 and checkmate you.
Throbbing mate
Black got lucky there was no Qf3 follow up. The wayward queen is a path to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural. Too many people haven't learned the follow up moves that let you repeatedly try for the mate, forcing bad positioning out of black.
I mean even in 1400 elo people still try to 4 move checkmate. I was triggered so much at some point that I decided to memorize 9 move line top computer moves
Yeah, exactly. It is irritating me so much how someone really thinks that in my (1250) elo this still works. So I did the same :D
It's not about the mate. I just do it to improve my positioning. I know the opponent is not going to fall for that.
@@DrDiabolical000 terrible position
@@DrDiabolical000 yeah but you don't improve your position if you move the queen 3 times before developing other pieces
@@DrDiabolical000 Trust me, its not good for positioning. Its just a trick opening that can be refuted very easily when someone has seen it once or twice already
It's never too late to learn chess, dear scholar's maters.
Lol someone tried to scholar's mate me in the 900's and after I repelled it he just pushed pawns like mad and didn't develop his kingside and I mated in the center of the board. Once you push back their initial attack they just collapse
It really do be like that. The chess merit badge was one of the first ones I got when I was still in the Boy Scouts and I remember winning most of the games we played in order to get it just by using the scholar’s mate. Now I only use it in the first round that I play against friends of mine just so I can troll them.
@@domesticdingo1417 You got lucky they didn't just try to mate you again. Wayward queen can control the first half of the game.
I'll still try it every game because every once in a while it works, and when it does it's intensely satisfying. It's not about winning the battle, it's about winning the war.
@@mayebeline1149 you are the cancer killing chess
I just watched Hikaru's video once and now I have the entire universe of chess in my recommendations.
Same
Samee
Lmaooo
yep, sounds like youtube algorithm
I like it tho
i died... the ncs song at the end xd... dead body reported
Reminds me of Ping! by .... oh look who it is
What’s the name of the song?
@@skyrocket1315 candyland
@@d1rect thank you!!!
I like your music.
Guy: plays Qh5
Me: *and I took that personally*
It's a valid opening that leads to many opportunities at a dirty checkmate after turn 4. Just some people haven't developed the play enough yet. I'm surprised white is playing that opening at 1k and they don't know how to develop it better.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 it is not a valid opening it’s just hoping that your opponent blunders
@@luketufts6827 i mean, the engine does say its a book move sooooo
@@williamnapitupulu5775 haha so is damiano’s defense
@@luketufts6827 hey anything thats theory by the engine, means it can be used somehow
That ain’t a fork, that’s a whole spoonful
“Yo can I get your king?” “Only a spoonful” *pulls out comically large knight*
@@peepeepoopoo3614 LMAO not that king bach vine
@@rugma1696 a man of culture, i see
@@peepeepoopoo3614 lmao
trident
i always feel so insulted when someone tries to do this to me, and then they blunder a rook or queen right after so I feel fine lmao
They either blunder their queen and resign or they don't know what to do after and resign XD
It's a valid opening. There's lots of reasons to like the scholar's mate attack. Mostly because black is forced into reacting for the first 15 moves, and it destroys any rational thought except "get the queen". I've beat a lot of better players because they blundered into my version of the wayward queen thinking they had it made. When played properly, there's more than just the turn 4 checkmate. It also leads to a 7 turn and a 9 turn checkmate unless your opponent trades queens or bongclouds the king. It seems like white is doing a bad thing not developing, but black isn't developing either. They're only reacting.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 Well you must be playing in to some bad players because good players ignore the queen first and develop their pieces. You prevent their attempts of Scholar’s mate and while all their pieces are on the first row you have control over the centre.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 your rating is showing. it’s not a good opening, and you’re not going to get better at the game by playing it 24/7 and hoping to go against someone that doesn’t know what to do.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 "black isnt developing...they are just reacting" do you know what developing a piece is?
Me: Watches a single chess video
TH-cam: Here's all of them
Omg so relatable.
I once searched for good openings now my recommendations are full of,well, chess
Ur officially a nerd lol 1 is all it takes no shame tho
This inspired me to play a game of chess and got the exact same starting moves from my opponent and forked in the same place to then take the queen. Pog.
I'm just impressed you remembered that entire move sequence lol
white queen move to e3 is a big question
I just love punishing player that play that opening, got a feeling of revenge for it
yeah lol such a cheap trick it is, like they're just hoping we won't notice two strong pieces out in first 4 moves lmao
same
I love punishing players who think I'm actually trying for the 4 turn mate and not just messing with their development.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 I can have great development against that too so...
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 You're just losing tempo when your opponent keeps kicking the queen around.
POV: you are trying out the throbber's mate but you are not charlie.
I'm calling it that now.
The only POV i understand:
this video be having 250 views and looking like it has millions
yes
Your comment has 16 likes and look like it has thousands
It will
It has 5k
It all Just Getting started
The fact that immediately after he lost his queen he gave up two minor pieces for a rook and a pawn kills me
He really thought he did something there
people at 900 rating still go for this and i basically invite them to do so.
@@rahulmistry5019 Yeah at that rating they don't understand how much more powerful two active minor pieces can be. Same with giving up two rooks for a queen.
My father taught me this opening and said "You should always start with this." Yeah father, thanks.
I have been scholars mated twice in my life. A third time will not be forgiven.
Same here
Me rated 800: Wait you guys refute this?
Not at all. Hikaru plays this and beats GMs with it(it's much better than bongcloud).
@bindro afi I know exactly what it is. The point is opening edges are more fleeting than people think. Like people see the eval bar and hear a master level player call a position completely lost and they just accept it. If only it was so simple. Still not excuse to play dubious chess people like Hikaru do it because they are entertainers.
@@boceksiadam positional advantages can be subtle and ephemeral - you might have a positional edge for all the opening stage and then make a blunder and lose a piece - and it was worth nothing. But generally speaking, the Wayward Queen attack just a bad idea because when you move the queen out early you just give your opponent opportunities to develop their pieces with tempo.
The queen is one of the weakest pieces, in the sense that it almost always HAS to move if it's attacked. By moving it out early, you are essentially giving your opponent free moves and positional edges or not this is just bad chess. Obviously rules are meant to be broken and there are openings like the Scandanavian which is a serious opening and involves an early queen - but you have to know what you are doing
A C C U R A T E
@@boceksiadam Are you joking? Hikaru has lost to people rated 2400 (chesscom rating) with the bongcloud... The opening is a huge huge huge part of chess which is why any GM worth their salt will tell you to study them rigourously
Can totally relate, people really think that this works 100% of the time.
Even when I was 1400 - 1500 someone did this to me.
@Patrick Höing i feel like i have power of 2100(GM) but only in mobile chess cus I don't have pc, but those are same platforms isn't it?
Normally the level of a GM its of a 2300 or 2400+ but with 2100 you are in a FM or IM rank,still quite an impresive elo,congrats,just a low percent of the whole chess players around the world have achieved the 2100 elo 💪💪
I still see people (occasionally) opening with it at the 1700+ level. It's not like it's a completely terrible opening or anything, some people must like the idea that it totally forces black's first few moves
the knight after seeing the attempt
“And i took that personally”
Me who doesn’t even play chess: hmm yes interesting
0:05 -the sudden Megalo after all the JoJo and Baka Mitai-
If you want to see more of this don't worry, I will soon make more ;)
1000 Subs and I'll try to win with the most st00pid opening
??
*Intellec*
Play me
2. Ke2!!
bongcloud incoming
"You lose your queen, you resign."
Not at 1000 elo. Every other move is a blunder.
@dobe Its a quote :)
@@dobeeeeval you must be fun at parties
@@megadeth101 You probably aren't.
"couple of boring moves later"
*plays a whole ass game of chess*
He was so busy trying to execute his strategy that he did not see that his own ship has set sail.
We have no time for proverbs
@@wwellthemage8426 it's no proverb
@@Murcielag0scuro maybe it should be a proverb
This is not the time for your stupid proverbs, Uncle Iroh.
Imagine leaving your queen and getting forked very early
-Nelson
0:27 "couple of boring moves later," gives off the same vibe as "two shots of vodka," only here you can actually count that it's way more than two.
This is one of the most common "NO FUCK YOU" moves in my short time playing chess and its still funny every time.
He didn't resign after losing queen, I'll give my respect for that xd he doesn't give up
I'm new to chess and I have 440 elo is it good?
@@johnmatthewcajilis5524 get magnus trainer
@@johnmatthewcajilis5524 nope, but if you know chess fundamentals, you can easily get to 800
@@johnmatthewcajilis5524 I don't want to say you're bad, because if you're new of course you're not good by most standards. just keep playing and learning and you will improve quick :)
@@johnmatthewcajilis5524 if you're new it's fine. Anything below 1k is shitty. I'm below 1k by the way.
"It's not about the position. It's about the message."
That one kid be like:
I thought 4 moves always worked!
Me: "I must be a real fun person now that I've started playing chess."
Me: "WAIT THERE'S MEMES TOO?"
POV: You laughed at a chess meme
Damn you really blowing up. Congrats you're living every youtubers dream of getting one that blows up and making a channel out of it. Bravo!!
I don’t know why TH-cam’s algorithms recommend me this but I’m all for it at this point
That horsec2 is the most satisfying move in chess existence
It's from Gotham chess, he taught how to punish scholar's mate with this move
You know it can be independent of that
@@accidentallyaj5138 it can be, but unlikely for 1000 rated player
@@iceseic I knew how to counter it from 1000
Fair play to gotham chess for inventing the refutation to scholars mate, dunno how people managed before he made this line
@@OM-yn8pt not really, its a book move. I'm 1600 but people started using the counter has been booming after the video
some people would rather learn some of the most basic and cheesiest opening to be stuck at 1000 rather than actually try to improve
Some people think this is actually just a basic opening and haven't thought about how many times it forces black to play defensively to avoid getting checkmated. There's a ton of permutations that allow for checkmates just a few turns later as well as on turn 4. It's a stronger attack than it appears.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 yeah it allows for a few more attacks but those attacks are just as weak as the one in the video
@@Ap0Kal1ps3
And lets your queen get chased around the board by anyone who hasn't just started playing
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 Its an opening that punishes people who haven't seen it before. Its that simple. You won't catch a player with it more than once (unless they just flat out aren't actually caring enough to try). And everyone's seen it before. Which means that nobody who actually puts in effort into chess will lose to that.
@@Ap0Kal1ps3 dunning Kruger effect... The fact that these people think that openings are relevant even at that level is very amusing. The confidence tho lol
It's definitely interesting opening
Dude I had that EXACT game except my opponent resigned when I forked the queen
we all had. search the db for the position.
Koriell: makes chess memes
Also koriell: calls most of the game boring
I miss being rated that low. That was a fun time. Now it's all theory and deep move strats.
unless you are rated FAR north of 2000, 'theory and deep move strats' is wasting your time - you should be developing tactical ability same as when you were 'rated that low'
@@helvete_ingres4717 thanks for your opinion. "wasting my time" lol, I'll stick to my IM trainer and the books I read. tactics and theory can be applied as early as 1500. I'm 1680 btw.
To be honest, not being able to scholar's mate your opponent is just as traumatic as being scholar's mated
We evolved as humanity as we have memes about chess.
I really feel dumb for losing in chess, but knowing that I don't die all the time without even knowing anything about basic strategies gives me a sense of superiority
"Gee, go learn Sicilian or something."
0:26-0:31
I can hear Levy in my head: "Boss what are you doing, you are up a queen and you are not moving it. It's your strongest piece why don't you use it."
That blunder queen move was hard to look at.
Qf3 ffs....
Opponent recognises cholar mate
800: surprised pikachu face
The guys profile picture is the “Outstanding Move” meme😂
Someone calls you a bot:😭
But your playing chess:😈
This edit is so perfect i cant stop watching it
When it’s not worthy enough to use Baka mitai
Don't you just hate those people who do not resign when all hope is lost so you start promoting all of your pawns
I like when people don't resign because then I can checkmate them and that's a more fun way of winning.
you should never resign at this level, I've won a hopelessly lost game recently - my opponent had a forced checkmate in a few moves, but he missed a mate in one and as soon as he played a move that didn't check my king I won.
Even Kramnik lost in such a way once, in a game against Deep Fritz in 2006 where he was in a position to at least draw or even win - and he was the reigning world champion.
yeah, then you have 4 queens and stalemate them
yup never resign guys although some people argue that it is not good sportsmanship, but u never know when the oppenent can blunder and turnaround the game, but sometimes when i resign when they really deserve the win cuz they played an amazing midgame outsmarting/ outplaying me, then i usually resign when it's a lost position, also it gives the opponent the satisfaction of checkmating
it works... when your rating is 200
It's a normal day for Knight, and the whole gang is screaming.
I feel like everyone below 1000 only know early queen attacks. I felt like that is 90% of what I face
Lol I’ve played this line before. I won’t say which side I was.
Seriously, I've seen people doing scholar's mate all the time in my class. Those fools think they can outsmart their mentor.
_It may sound like I'm a teacher but I'm not, I'm just the president of our chess club_
This hurt my soul watching him lose his queen like that
He deserved it
people who try this and then completely fall apart when it's defended are the same guys who canon rush in starcraft
POV: You're actually the other guy
You know what I hate the most? When you beat your opponent, get asked for a rematch, conceed, and the opponent go for this. Its so annoying.
I was expecting him to lose his queen, tbh. However, I was disappointed after seeing him give you two pieces for the rook.
I just can't imagine why anybody thinks that's a good trade.
@@mastery4667 he didn't "blow up" anything - black is in no danger here. white is completely undeveloped. in general, trading two pieces for a rook isn't good. sometimes in specific positions it's the right decision -- definitely isn't the case here.
why are you arguing with me on this? are you an internet expert of chess or something?
POV: you don't understand chess and are just watching the pieces move around in confused interest
0:00 Yoshi's island music
0:24 Mario sunshine music?
Yoshi's island music 0:00 but 0:26 is Pina Colada - Silent partner
I love how this ancient game has finally caught up with all the memes. Big respect
I'm just proud that I am so early for a video that's going to blow up
2.7k views 350 likes
Truly disgusting, that some “people” would do this horrible thing
this exact thing happened to me. I was offended they tried to scholars mate like I was blind, and I got them into this EXACT fork lol
Fork never gets old!
commenting incase this blows up and i can flex on completely useless things
395 views
7 comments
38 likes
123
What was the fourth number?
@@sierich6070 he is flexing how high he can count on the fourth number.
It never ceases to amaze me that players who use the scholars mate have no idea how to play chess
Nobody is doing this at 200 rating ima try to checkmate them noobs
0:15 the move sync so well with the Yoshi Island music that made me laugh pretty loud
"à la prophétie, c'est la prophétie, c'est la prophétie qui s'accomplit" - Sardoche
Ok that ending was perfect this video will be remembered by future generations
In 1200, scholar mate is so uncommon. But blackburne gambit and englund gambit user increased drastically.
Scholar’s mate triggered the hell out of me for so long that I just learned how to deal with it.
Nothing better than punishing the attempted Scholar's Mate.
THE OPENING WAS SOOO TRUEEEE, like idk what they think when they play that, like are we blind or something that we wont see it
I legitimately feel insulted when some tries to 4 move me. I makes me want to beat them even harder.
Me who has no idea how to play chess but this is on my recommended : ok
As a person who has barely ever played chess thats a pretty cool little 4 turn play, can imagine it’s quite easy to beat for a competent player though.
I mean, at least they know the first step of escaping the failed scholar's mate. That's better than most people who use that opening.
The horse is the most treacherous piece in chess
Those moves weren't boring at all
at the 1000+ level, people going for the fried liver is my new pain in the behind.
Lv1.Learning to play chess through schools
Lv2.Learning to play chess through books
Lv3.Learning to play chess through the Internet
Lv4.Learning to play chess through your friends
Lv5.Learning to play chess alone
MAXLEVEL. LEARNING TO PLAY CHESS THROUGH MEMES AND EXE
Pov: You are 250 rated and your openent does a modified 4 moves and then expects it to work the next 3 rematches
As a kid, I used 4 moves mate to beat some Flash chess games on 'Hard' difficulty. Felt so smart at that time lol.
POV: You're lost throught the video and can't follow the logic of their movements fast enough even 'though you know how chess works
No one:
Black Side: *I am ten universes ahead of you*
I may not understand chess, but I did understand how utterly outplayed this man was
Chess is very popular now not going to lie
In all fairness the queen would probably take the pawn on e5 and immediately take your rook.
Isn’t the pawn on e5 protected by the Knight on c6?
This is litterally every 1200 bullet game I've ever played
This video felt like an AI trying to imitate humor
POV: you’re a 1200 rated player and Hikaru did a Bongcloud speedrun
0:14 that fork is the reason I always go Qc3 to avoide Nc2 double fork on the king and rook
e4 is hanging
And Bishop f4 is a pain in the ass to deal with