Thank you Alec, great video as usual and of course everything boils down to money. Plastic is cheaper than brass and chrome, but personally my Scubapro MK25/S600 and USD Conshelf 14 are forever.
Back in my day we whittled 'em out of wood. A little wax before and after the dive and you're good to go. Seriously though, thanks again for another great video Alec!
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Luxury, sheer luxuray, I dreamed of woven grass and straw hoses. When I were a boy, we used the rejected haggis bags which leaked for our scuba cylinders.
I'm sure it's only a matter of minutes before the comments start flowing from owners of thirty and forty year-old metal second stages that look almost new. I think the biggest differences between metal and plastic second stages are price (metal usually costs more, titanium definitely costs much more) and weight (in one's mouth metal are usually noticeably heavier, including underwater). Thank you Alec for all of your videos!
I've got a health ways single stage that looks like brand new... made around 1958...... lol I got a bunch of 1970s andv80s chrome ones that look new and one that got turquoise green powder like growth on it... it would make a great aquarium piece.. lol.
Titanium is only in new regs, vintage chrome were brass with chrome plating. If you scratched the chrome and the brass showed, then saltwater would get inside and start to bubble the chrome. Using a good cleaner and wax helped keep them working and looking great. A
@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter kewl it looks like new right now... I purchased it from a guy the refurbished them.... I always wanted to dive one but now I need a steel 72 tank, with the valve that has a reserve and the rod and a back pack.. just like the olden days.. lol
metal have an advantage over plastic, you can wear the chrome to base metal but a metal is always repairable that is not the case of plastic that lost its plastifiants, it breaks like glass and there is nothing you can do against that. I have both style of regulators and to me , metal construction is always one step forward for global quality and ease of maintenance. I've seen many replacement housings to sell on the internet, this can mean that this type of construction is problematic to a certain point. very good topic excellent video
Metal has one big advantage - it conducts heat better than plastic and won't freeze as easily (I mean the internal parts, external does not make that much of a difference). We had one Scubapro 2nd stage, all plastic, nobody wanted to dive it in cold water because there have been a few cases of freezing. If you dive cold waters make sure the guts are metal, there's a reason Aqualung Glacia has a radiator on the hose.
The Sherwood Blizzard was "designed" for cold water with fins just inside the mouthpiece to collect moisture and prevent freezing. Any reg and freeze and free flow, just watch my videos on them to see how free flows start and how easy it is to prevent it. A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter lucky me with our Poseidon seven's group ,a bunch of good dude diving; instead of the mass on scuba diving on sharm or any famous location without any preparation and experience ;-)
I'm glad you demonstrated a new 1st stage - my personal opinion is that the manufacturer should stop putting ABS plastic over the chrome. It becomes a salt / sand magnet and reduces the life of the 1st stage. Make it functional without the plastic 'housing' around the outside. It's the same with "Hose Protectors" on Miflex hoses - total waste of time and promotes corrosion of crimp points.
I have been diving SCUBAPRO 109 second stages since 1981 and haven't found a need to switch. You can still get parts for them. You can't say that about a lot of regulators much newer than the 109.
Steer clear of soft/rubber purge buttons/covers. They are more easily damaged, wear through, dry rot away, suffer plasticizer migration or rubber reversion, and just don't have the longevity of hard purge buttons. The purge button on the vintage Scubapro is most likely a fabricated replacement, made of modern material (or never dived/looks NIB).
I have that Zeagle regulator. Today it failed due to the star shaped chromed ring about the purge button popping out due to corrosion (it looks like it’s chrome plated zinc or zamac?). So yeah, I prefer plastic to metal……
I maintain the onyx zeagle regulator It's very easy and hard work spacial in red sea 🌊 only some time the plastic cover is scratch And my own regulator is cyklon 5000 from poseidon this is the best underwater
It is interesting that, to the modern diver, the old chrome plated 2nd stages are akin to a work of art, the equivalent of a 1957 Chevy Belair, '77 chevelle, or 65 mustang fastback. Beautiful and functional to be sure, but not nearly as efficient or low maintenance as a modern Honda accord.
A SCUBA regulator is not a car. In SCUBA we still have the three basic types of first stages that we had at the end of the 1960's (Flow by Piston, Balanced Piston and Balanced Diaphragm). The last major improvement in second stages came with the balanced Second stage in the early 1980's. And as long as your First Stage is Balanced you don't really need a balanced second stage. Chrome 2nd stages are less likely to freeze in cold water than the plastic second stages. However, there has been some major reduction in weight. Plastic for second stages and Titanium for first stages. To me the cost of Titanium isn't worth it. It usually doubles the cost of the regulator.
Just recently the plastic mesh holdig my regulator's purge button deteriorated and broke down. No replacement part available... So much for the longevity of plastic regulators 😢 Otherwise the thing still works fine.
There should be a replacement purge cover, if the maker is in business or a 3rd party product. The outside cover is just a waterproof cover so there may be another brand that fits it. If interested, post your problem on www.scubaboard.com with all the details. Someone in the scuba community may have a solution. A
The only reason that regulator producers phased over to plastic is because of manufacturing cost savings, not because of any superficial, or perceived structural advantages of plastic over metal.
Well, not the only reason, but certainly the primary. Drop that beautiful Scubapro Balanced Adjustable Alec has and you may dent the faceplate or body, but a plastic second may only suffer minor scuffing.
Like a lot of gear from the early decades, better materials: stronger, lighter, no corrosion etc, replaced brass and chrome. Today's regs are much better for safety, breathing effort and comfort, just us old guys looking back on our first regs weighting 5 pounds! A
AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter: The reason new plastic regulators generally perform better than the old chrome regulators is because of the evolving engineering advancements over the years to the mechanical designs of regulators, not because of any transition to plastic as a construction material.
@@menemshaoneninesixeight2487 There has been very little change to 2nd stage regulators in the last 40 years and 50 years for the first stages.. You are buying into the manufacter hype.
@@eclockwork It all depends on your philosophy of damage thresholds and repair vs replacement. Drop the same regulators harder, and the 109 will still only be dented while the plastic shatters. Pound out the dents and the chrome keeps on ticking, despite looking like the surface of the moon.
I love my chrome, but my plastic seems to clean up easier... of course, I still have my pacer X ... and a few Chinese plastic ones... and my U.S. DIVERS lime green one I bought from a estate sell after the previous owner no longer needed it... I went to clean it up and found out that it was brand new just the guys kids did not dive and tossed it in a box labeled swimming stuff. I tried to pay them more then they were asking because I felt I was taking advantage of their lack of knowledge... but they only want $3.00 for the entire box.. including US Divers swime fins, dive flag, parts of a tow motor, 3 U.S. Divers masks gloves a cold water thick hood, buckles and belts 6 L.P. hoses, two sets of gages with consoles, 4 H.P. hoses. And a flashlight. Sofar I have not had any issues with my plastic regulators but I did get some corrosion on one of my old shiny metal ones.... but it was made in the early 1970s. Lol
That sounds like a fantastic find. Watch my video on cleaning chrome regs to get it in display condition. Wish I could come across a find like that today. A
To me the biggest reason to buy a new regulator has to do with cylinder pressure. Many of the older first stages weren't designed for the higher pressure. If I am going to use a 3442 psi or higher cylinder pressure. I want a DIN regulator.
I would think the weight savings gained with a modern ‘plastic’ second-stage would possibly reduce jaw fatigue caused by having a heavy chunk of metal in your mouth… Any comments, Alec?
Yes. Brass 2nd stages won't dry your mouth/throat, because of the way metal interacts with moisture in the air you breathe. These are metal conductivity and condensation effect.
Absolutely true. I own both a plastic second stage set for my rec setup, and a metal set (same brand) for my tec setup. In cold water this makes a big big difference for that "dry-cough-feeling" half way into the dive. I wouldn't know the difference in warm waters though, so in tropical regions plastic would be the best option, because metals have cons too.
It's a personal view. Metal parts collect moisture from your breathing so a little more moisture than tank air is inhaled. There were regs from Sherwood, the Blizzard, with "fins" in the mouthpiece to collect moisture from your breath but how much water you get, not much over a dive. A
I was told that the reason you should use black plastic instead of shiny chromey metal regulators is because Barracuda aim for the chromey ones. Guys, you only have one set of lips! A Barracuda bite to the kisser is no laughing matter.🙊 And for you lake divers, never heard of Pike?
I remember my instructor saying to hid your rings or the 'cuda will bite you. Not in all my decades have I seen or know anyone who was bite by a 'cuda. Know lots who ran out of air begging for mine! A
I have on old circa 80s chrome scubapro reg pre adjustment knob. It hangs on the wall in the living room. They are a work of Art for sure.
The Scubapro S109 I'm holding is actually Kevin's. It's not for diving but for showing what the insides look like.
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Thank you Alec, great video as usual and of course everything boils down to money. Plastic is cheaper than brass and chrome, but personally my Scubapro MK25/S600 and USD Conshelf 14 are forever.
Keep the Conshelf safe, its a great reg.
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Hi Alec, great topic again.
I dove with my MK5 I got new in 73’ up until 2021 then replaced it.
They’re bulletproof regs!
Right on.
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though chrome looks more elegant, but I prefer the plastic ones and I do use them. ... thanks for the special video "as usual "
Thanks for watching!
Back in my day we whittled 'em out of wood.
A little wax before and after the dive and you're good to go.
Seriously though, thanks again for another great video Alec!
You're lucky! I used to have to weave grass around a straw to make my reg hoses!!! Thanks for watching.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Luxury, sheer luxuray, I dreamed of woven grass and straw hoses. When I were a boy, we used the rejected haggis bags which leaked for our scuba cylinders.
I'm sure it's only a matter of minutes before the comments start flowing from owners of thirty and forty year-old metal second stages that look almost new. I think the biggest differences between metal and plastic second stages are price (metal usually costs more, titanium definitely costs much more) and weight (in one's mouth metal are usually noticeably heavier, including underwater). Thank you Alec for all of your videos!
I've got a health ways single stage that looks like brand new... made around 1958...... lol
I got a bunch of 1970s andv80s chrome ones that look new and one that got turquoise green powder like growth on it... it would make a great aquarium piece.. lol.
I did a video on cleaning chrome regs, search for that if you want it cleaned up for display or diving.
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Titanium is only in new regs, vintage chrome were brass with chrome plating. If you scratched the chrome and the brass showed, then saltwater would get inside and start to bubble the chrome. Using a good cleaner and wax helped keep them working and looking great.
A
@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter kewl it looks like new right now... I purchased it from a guy the refurbished them.... I always wanted to dive one but now I need a steel 72 tank, with the valve that has a reserve and the rod and a back pack.. just like the olden days.. lol
Hi Alec, Paul about the voit tanks sizes etc.
Videos are great by the way
You are the best !!
Thank you for the feedback. I'm showing my wife this.
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metal have an advantage over plastic, you can wear the chrome to base metal but a metal is always repairable that is not the case of plastic that lost its plastifiants, it breaks like glass and there is nothing you can do against that.
I have both style of regulators and to me , metal construction is always one step forward for global quality and ease of maintenance.
I've seen many replacement housings to sell on the internet, this can mean that this type of construction is problematic to a certain point.
very good topic
excellent video
Hi Jacques, right you are. I thought afterwards of saying if your head high, get an old chrome reg to add 4-6 pounds up high!!
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Metal has one big advantage - it conducts heat better than plastic and won't freeze as easily (I mean the internal parts, external does not make that much of a difference). We had one Scubapro 2nd stage, all plastic, nobody wanted to dive it in cold water because there have been a few cases of freezing. If you dive cold waters make sure the guts are metal, there's a reason Aqualung Glacia has a radiator on the hose.
The Sherwood Blizzard was "designed" for cold water with fins just inside the mouthpiece to collect moisture and prevent freezing. Any reg and freeze and free flow, just watch my videos on them to see how free flows start and how easy it is to prevent it.
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feel more with Brass to plastic second stage but shyne chrome plated parts give a aestethic touch too
You definitely stand out on a dive boat of new/young divers with an old Scubapro 109.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter lucky me with our Poseidon seven's group ,a bunch of good dude diving; instead of the mass on scuba diving on sharm or any famous location without any preparation and experience ;-)
I'm glad you demonstrated a new 1st stage - my personal opinion is that the manufacturer should stop putting ABS plastic over the chrome. It becomes a salt / sand magnet and reduces the life of the 1st stage. Make it functional without the plastic 'housing' around the outside. It's the same with "Hose Protectors" on Miflex hoses - total waste of time and promotes corrosion of crimp points.
I hear you, the plastic is a bit of a pain.
I have been diving SCUBAPRO 109 second stages since 1981 and haven't found a need to switch. You can still get parts for them. You can't say that about a lot of regulators much newer than the 109.
The S109 in this video is Kevin's teaching reg. Easy to disassemble to show new OW divers how the purge button moves the 2nd stage seat.
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Steer clear of soft/rubber purge buttons/covers. They are more easily damaged, wear through, dry rot away, suffer plasticizer migration or rubber reversion, and just don't have the longevity of hard purge buttons.
The purge button on the vintage Scubapro is most likely a fabricated replacement, made of modern material (or never dived/looks NIB).
The Scubapro S109 is Kevin's display and teaching reg. Easy to take apart to show new divers how the 2nd stage works.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Beautifully shiny! Is that the original purge cover?
I had an Octo Fall apart during AOW. Plastic Housing. I'm thinking the Metal is Better. As the Purge Button hold down can be tightened
Hope your buddy was around to help out. Not something your training prepared you for.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter My PADI OW Instructor trained for Out of Air and Free Flow. Not a Reg Purge Button coming apart.
I have that Zeagle regulator. Today it failed due to the star shaped chromed ring about the purge button popping out due to corrosion (it looks like it’s chrome plated zinc or zamac?).
So yeah, I prefer plastic to metal……
That must have been a shock.
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@ luckily was topside. Might put my gear out of action for a while as I’m not sure where I can get a replacement that won’t take weeks
I maintain the onyx zeagle regulator
It's very easy and hard work spacial in red sea 🌊 only some time the plastic cover is scratch
And my own regulator is cyklon 5000 from poseidon this is the best underwater
Both are good regs to dive with.
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@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter yes sir that's true 👌
It is interesting that, to the modern diver, the old chrome plated 2nd stages are akin to a work of art, the equivalent of a 1957 Chevy Belair, '77 chevelle, or 65 mustang fastback. Beautiful and functional to be sure, but not nearly as efficient or low maintenance as a modern Honda accord.
Just like cars, we look back to our first car/scuba reg with fond memories that it couldn't get any better than this (but it did).
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@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter lol, how true. Happy Thanksgiving, Alec, from North Carolina!
A SCUBA regulator is not a car.
In SCUBA we still have the three basic types of first stages that we had at the end of the 1960's (Flow by Piston, Balanced Piston and Balanced Diaphragm). The last major improvement in second stages came with the balanced Second stage in the early 1980's. And as long as your First Stage is Balanced you don't really need a balanced second stage. Chrome 2nd stages are less likely to freeze in cold water than the plastic second stages. However, there has been some major reduction in weight. Plastic for second stages and Titanium for first stages. To me the cost of Titanium isn't worth it. It usually doubles the cost of the regulator.
Just recently the plastic mesh holdig my regulator's purge button deteriorated and broke down. No replacement part available... So much for the longevity of plastic regulators 😢
Otherwise the thing still works fine.
There should be a replacement purge cover, if the maker is in business or a 3rd party product. The outside cover is just a waterproof cover so there may be another brand that fits it. If interested, post your problem on www.scubaboard.com with all the details. Someone in the scuba community may have a solution.
A
The only reason that regulator producers phased over to plastic is because of manufacturing cost savings, not because of any superficial, or perceived structural advantages of plastic over metal.
Well, not the only reason, but certainly the primary. Drop that beautiful Scubapro Balanced Adjustable Alec has and you may dent the faceplate or body, but a plastic second may only suffer minor scuffing.
Like a lot of gear from the early decades, better materials: stronger, lighter, no corrosion etc, replaced brass and chrome. Today's regs are much better for safety, breathing effort and comfort, just us old guys looking back on our first regs weighting 5 pounds!
A
AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter: The reason new plastic regulators generally perform better than the old chrome regulators is because of the evolving engineering advancements over the years to the mechanical designs of regulators, not because of any transition to plastic as a construction material.
@@menemshaoneninesixeight2487 There has been very little change to 2nd stage regulators in the last 40 years and 50 years for the first stages.. You are buying into the manufacter hype.
@@eclockwork It all depends on your philosophy of damage thresholds and repair vs replacement.
Drop the same regulators harder, and the 109 will still only be dented while the plastic shatters. Pound out the dents and the chrome keeps on ticking, despite looking like the surface of the moon.
I love my chrome, but my plastic seems to clean up easier... of course, I still have my pacer X ... and a few Chinese plastic ones... and my U.S. DIVERS lime green one I bought from a estate sell after the previous owner no longer needed it... I went to clean it up and found out that it was brand new just the guys kids did not dive and tossed it in a box labeled swimming stuff. I tried to pay them more then they were asking because I felt I was taking advantage of their lack of knowledge... but they only want $3.00 for the entire box.. including US Divers swime fins, dive flag, parts of a tow motor, 3 U.S. Divers masks gloves a cold water thick hood, buckles and belts 6 L.P. hoses, two sets of gages with consoles, 4 H.P. hoses. And a flashlight. Sofar I have not had any issues with my plastic regulators but I did get some corrosion on one of my old shiny metal ones.... but it was made in the early 1970s. Lol
That sounds like a fantastic find. Watch my video on cleaning chrome regs to get it in display condition. Wish I could come across a find like that today.
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To me the biggest reason to buy a new regulator has to do with cylinder pressure. Many of the older first stages weren't designed for the higher pressure. If I am going to use a 3442 psi or higher cylinder pressure. I want a DIN regulator.
Any tank over 3443 psi MUST use DIN so enjoy the longer bottom time.
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I would think the weight savings gained with a modern ‘plastic’ second-stage would possibly reduce jaw fatigue caused by having a heavy chunk of metal in your mouth… Any comments, Alec?
There is a little weight difference between them but with a swivel and slightly longer hose, the old ones are almost as easy to move and use.
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I dive both and haven't noticed much of a difference. Most jaw fatigue comes from divers biting the mouth piece to hard.
I’d have thought plastic second stages would also be lighter.
They are a little lighter. Old regs were all metal parts but thin metal.
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Is it true or noticeable that chrome regs don't "dry" your mouth during the dive?
Yes. Brass 2nd stages won't dry your mouth/throat, because of the way metal interacts with moisture in the air you breathe. These are metal conductivity and condensation effect.
Absolutely true. I own both a plastic second stage set for my rec setup, and a metal set (same brand) for my tec setup. In cold water this makes a big big difference for that "dry-cough-feeling" half way into the dive.
I wouldn't know the difference in warm waters though, so in tropical regions plastic would be the best option, because metals have cons too.
Great. Ao that's a nice advantage for the metal regs
It's a personal view. Metal parts collect moisture from your breathing so a little more moisture than tank air is inhaled. There were regs from Sherwood, the Blizzard, with "fins" in the mouthpiece to collect moisture from your breath but how much water you get, not much over a dive.
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It is about manufacturing cost. Do not kid yourself it is anything but. Profits.
Sadly its likely the real reason these days but also for ease of maintenance and weight.
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...mmm BUT it is much easier to see a Chrome one , when you are diving and your foolish dive buddy ran out of air again and needs your Octo !
What, share my lovely chrome reg with my buddy, he better be a fast swimmer to catch up to me.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter and that is Why I dive SOLO 99% of the time !
I was told that the reason you should use black plastic instead of shiny chromey metal regulators is because Barracuda aim for the chromey ones. Guys, you only have one set of lips! A Barracuda bite to the kisser is no laughing matter.🙊 And for you lake divers, never heard of Pike?
I remember my instructor saying to hid your rings or the 'cuda will bite you. Not in all my decades have I seen or know anyone who was bite by a 'cuda. Know lots who ran out of air begging for mine!
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter What is the word for legends like that,I wonder? Not Urban legends. Aquatic legends,perhaps? ´Cuda lore?
No Plastic, Delrin whatever will just desenigrate
There are a few common plastics used in today's scuba gear and each year makers fins a newer, maybe better, product to make gear with.
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