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You can bet the rest of the treasure hunting world has learned the lesson -- keep your head down, vacuum it up fast, leave fast, melt it down, quietly sell to buyers, and to hell with intangible archeology . What a bleeding shame.
I remember a video talking about archeology in Bolivia or Peru. They found little mummies or skeletons and collectors flew in on planes and took em a decade or two ago. If you think about it the Uk was the largest looter of antiquities around the world and promotes it to this day with still having Chinese porcelain being sold in auctions etc or priceless things that’s owned by the government in museums. The U.S. made a law museums must return Native American bodies etc but magically it’s ethical to keep mummies and gold coffins? There’s a ton of hypocrisy right there. But ya treasure hunters will either melt finds down or they’ll try to sell it on the black market which I’m sure happens.
Uh, all that gold + silver was mined by those who lived in the area at the cost of many lives who were enslaved. Beyond that, between epidemics + conquering they killed 90% of the population. Spain deserves none of it.
It’s show that some Spaniards are full of crap to me. Surprise surprise 😅 They’ll say and do anything to get what they want (gold I this case) that they likely stole themselves in a far worst circumstances when they terrorised half of the globe during that era. It’s old gold too, so you have no idea how many ppl suffered or payed the ultimate price for it to come into existence. It’s like money these days, it’s not rly yours to keep. It’s just your turn with it for the time being. Hell, it wouldn’t shock me if this old treasure has several curses attached to it. Just look at the ppl now days getting in involved with it. They all suffered in more ways that ppl could explain.
Trikipum Peru did exist a few years ago when the court case gave it to Spain. Point is if you’re going to promote ethics and morals etc like others say about rule of law then you also must acknowledge Spain destroyed tons of civilizations and kidnapped rulers. Spain literally was a billionaire drug cartel haha in some sense. They did move drugs just like the Uk which is how the Uk got hung kong. But point is Spain used slave labor to get the gold. Does Spain still own the land in Peru today? Obviously is Spain owned Peru still today then there’d be no question of Spain should own it. But since Spain lost their azz and all their form conquests why shouldn’t their prior colonies that they literally raped and pillaged why shouldnt they have a claim to it? In a world with dictatorships and no morals or ethics sure yes Spain 100% used slave labor to get the gold in Peru so they should own it still today, but if you think courts and society are better today you may just consider the land where the mines were or civilization was pillaged maybe they should own it.
I also feel like if Spain actually gave a crap they could have developed and paid for the technological means to locate and find the wreck. Its like someone winning the lottery and suddenly every long lost relative comes for a hand-out.
Uhhhh given the state of the country of spain in the last 300 years I dont think they could have afforded that. Spain can hardly keep herself in one piece.
Nobody asked them to come to our waters and take it out. Of course the government will sue if the treasure is being taken as property to a foreign country.
More like the lost relative gets you drunk and robs you while stiffing the wife (Portugal) and leaving the country with the girlfriend. There should be an automatic minimum bounty on the return of the treasure. The value of an "archeological site" that no one will ever visit is also pretty close to convenient nonsense.
What the fuck? Someone digs up your dead grandpa and steals the rings on his fingers, and get to keep them because the grandchildren didn't choose to do it first? Get fucked. The gold was fine where it was. If it was gonna go anywhere, it's not some fucking American graverobbers
Sadly, as a result of the current policies in respect of recovered treasure, much of archeology will be lost to history. The Spanish would not get off their backsides to recover what they claim to be theirs, yet shout and scream as soon as someone with enterprise and energy does the hard work. There needs to be a revision of the current terms whereby the finder is guaranteed a substantial percentage of the recovered value. The ship, perfectly equipped for the work of recovery is no longer searching for treasure, the additional knowledge we gain from the archeology is wasting away on the sea-bed. The Spanish should be ashamed, they didn't deserve one coin from the find.
Do I hear the spanish compensating all their victims through the inquisition ? Where is their strong sense or justice there ? They were happy to profit and continue to profit from their sins.
Lol "finders keepers" is a concept that belongs on the primary school playground, and nowhere else. In the real world, people are expected to act like actual mature adults and follow basic moral tenets, one example being to recognize that the act of losing a piece of property due to circumstances beyond the owner's control does NOT automatically strip ownership rights from that party. If you lost your wallet out in the world, wouldn't you shout and scream if someone just helped themselves to your cash, your credit, your identity? Or would you be okay with them taking all of those things because you weren't out looking hard enough for it, so therefore "finders keepers"? It's sad that this even needs to be explained, but then there is a shocking number of grown-ass people who mentally seem to have never left the primary school playground.... 🤦🏼♂️
@pizzlerot2730 don't retrieve your shit for decades or hundreds of years? That's on you. Finders keepers makes sense here. An entire national government could easily do it, not doing it is their fault.
The whole idea of finding treasure is to be able to keep it for yourself and get rich. I’m not dedicating my time and energy and money into finding something that will just get taken away for me with out not even a thank you.
It really should be finders keepers. Most of those wrecks were probably paid back by insurance anyways. Hey that could be a good hustle, insure a ship, "sink" said ship, than have the precious cargo recovered, because apparently you still own it after insurance pays you...
What you think happen with the titanic ? The theory is they sunk the twin ship (completely identical) for insurance claims. The actual titanic never actually wrecked (up for speculation) but yea bro. The titanic was one big insurance scam
@@kingscavenger4372 Yeah i heard that it may have been swapped with the sister ship, the Olympic. Very possible. Back then no one would know the difference
@@kingscavenger4372 People still haven't given up on this idiotic theory? If it was an insurance scam it was a pretty terrible one; the Titanic was very underinsured, the White Star Line lost a huge amount of money on the sinking, and that's not even counting that bad PR.
They should have kept it all. The fact that a country can plunder gold from another country and then later claim the shipwreck is theirs is diabolical and has murderous intent. Stupid laws.
plunder gold from another country?. At that point, it was spanish provices.. it was not "another country".. there wasnt even countries there back then.. what the hell are you talking about man?...It is funny, so americans stole another country of everything too?, or how many countries did they stole from? (appart from mexico of course, but that happened basically yesterday...).. tell me more about this logic you apply...
The museum in Cartagena, Spain displays some of the gold and describes it as being stolen from Spain by the treasure hunters. The museum doesn't mention that the gold was stolen from the indigenous people who slaved in the gold mines. Shameless and disgusting.
Yeah, people coming to your shore and sovereign waters to take valuable heritage for then to sell the coins as necklaces is the way to go. As a Spaniard that went to Key West, FL some tears came to my eyes when people were buying necklaces from the Nuestra Señora de Atocha for 25 dollars and the "visionary" that found it was selling a book on getting rich fast. Eiter Spain or the Latin American country where the gold was take from should put the treasure in a museum, not in some billionaires garage.
Because politicians aren't theives and they won't use ownership of the treasure to peddle influence to the highest bidder... the Obama admin tried to sell the owners out to hand deliver someone else's treasure to Spain if their Literal friend could get some painting in return. Remind me Who has destroyed the economies of their people over and over again... Socialists? (Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba, Franco's Spain, Nazi Germany). Which "billionaires" were involved here or in any major treasure hunting find? "Valuable heritage?" The site is at the bottom of the sea... there will be no tours. The intent Was to sell it to museums and collectors and give the country a cut. But certain countries have a reputation of just taking it all. What new wonders could be uncovered by a bunch of gold coins in the dark of the ocean in international waters... Spain going to sell tickets? What value if all salvage companies just take the gold and melt it down because they Know some politician will steal the treasure and sell it for influence.
Yup. Here in South America, we tend to joke about sPAIN giving back the gold that they "stole". (In the 16th century they suffered 5 cycles of inflation for that, hehe) 😂 Good vid m8
I wonder if one of the owners just felt Spain would be way worse than the other countries and figured they wouldn't get anything anyways, so they might as well just try to make a break for it and see what happens. I knew salvage laws could get complicated, but I thought operators were guaranteed a certain percentage no matter what. Maybe their shenanigans defeated this or the archeological value negated it. Maybe countries could offer a certain reward for locating and confirming sites as long searchers adhere to certain rules. I'm not sure how much money countries give to archeologists and historians to conduct expeditions to find such sites, especially if there's not a ton of evidence. Finding some middle ground might be better as more of these sites disappear year by year.
Salvage is one thing when its private. International Maritime laws are not even agreed by all countries. The more a I make these stories the more I realise that maritime expeditions are just not governed by the same rule as land. It really is the wild west and nobody or government agrees. Even when it seems clear that theres foul play, it almost never comes to any prosecution. Maritime Industry is an incredibly fascinating world.
As someone who lives in Spain, I would not be surprised if the undersea exploration company had their lawyers perform due diligence with the Spanish authorities and realised they wouldn't have a ghost of a chance of keeping anything they found. Ask yourselves how much of that wealth subsequently went into the pockets of certain Spanish government officials.
@@h5mind373 Considering the shear magnitude of the find, and the relative fiasco that IS STILL the Spanish Government's budget... for all the obvious profit margin, something's not getting where it should be... ...AND I'll leave it at that. ;o)
@@h5mind373 I would agree. Portugal got strong armed quite quickly... if they could do that to another government, why not take everything from the private salvage company.
Im sorry but no way in hell I would be giving shit back to a govt who didnt do shit for it. I would rather die than give treasure back to a state who stole it in the first place.
If a country does not make any effort to salvage a ship for over 100 years. Any treasure hunters that find it should be able to keep it. Spain and England both can afford to do the same but chose not to. Their loss.
This happens because investors demand a public company must increase profits ad infinitum- an impossibility- which leads to exactly these sorts of desperate and illegal measures.
Because investors want return on their money? Why be an investor at all of you don't want a return? Do you understand how soialism and capitalism work? Check Wikipedia. Start with this: Getting nothing for something only works in the deluded minds of socialism.
No, in this case it had _nothing_ to do with the greed of the salvage company. It was simply bad faith greed on the part of the Spanish government, which is STILL little better than the Franco government.
There shouldn’t be any possible way for a government to take control of lost treasure!! If you didn’t spend the time, money and equipment to locate it, then you shouldn’t be able to get any of it.. If they were that concerned about getting it back then they should’ve been the ones putting in the work to bring it up!! Been at the bottom of the ocean for hundreds of years. But the second someone actually tracks it down, all a sudden they want their cut. If not the whole damn thing.. SMMFH.. Bunch of no good slimeballs if ya ask me!… 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ The reason they tie it up in court is so they can send their own people out to recover it, cutting the real finders completely out of the game.. That’s most likely the reason for not using their location on the ship. Can’t trust anyone, especially not any government!!! I ever find anything like that and Imma melt it all down. Idc about a historical value one bit. If you find something, just keep ya mouth shut or someone gunna relive it from your possession one way or the other most likely unfortunately..
I'm South African. We have, how shall I say, loose morals. I think off keep a treasure and not tell anyone. The trick would be to melt it down and sell it slowly to different people without attracting attention. An ounce here and an ounce there. Probably won't be easy to recover the tens of millions it takes to find it.
@@waterlinestories I got thinking about this last night actually. I’d do it one of two ways. First thing that I’d do after location is go to those who will try taking it away, (AKA the government) and say look, this is what I’ve found, and this is what I want to reveal the said location. Then tell them that if they don’t want to pay. Then I shall go to people on the black market side of things and offer them the same exact deal. But make sure that they are well aware that if I’m forced to go that route, they obviously won’t have any way to recover it down the road. Because that’s exactly what they’d do, melt it all down and enter it into circulation among their various types of ways.. It’s pretty simple. If I go through the trouble of actually tracking down said treasure, then I’m absolutely going to get paid for my time, equipment, knowledge and whatever else all that entails! But one way or another, im fixin to get that bag!! 🤷🏻♂️😁
@@waterlinestories Even if my actions mean that I must go to prison for however long.. Least I know that im set for life once I’m released.. That or my family would be at the very least! 🤷🏻♂️🙌🏼
The problem is, loose lips sink ships. You wouldn't be able to run an operation line this single handed so while you're in prison, sone other schmack is selling your secret. Nope I think you have to extract it abed smelt it down or sell it on the black market.
@@waterlinestories Well yeah, you’d obviously split it up amongst the crew. Then you’d take your cut and stash it away with the only person knowing your hiding spot being a family member. That way if I’m not getting out, they’d be able to retrieve it when they’d need it. But yeah melting it down would likely be the best way to get the most out of what’s been found tho!.
The US Gov would have sided with the Spanish, and after identity was made of the wreck, refusal to pay would have resulted in your company being fined the alleged value of the the treasure or risk arrest and forceful seizure of the value. The US & Spain have an extradition treaty as well.
Great story. This reminds me of when Canada seized the Spanish fishing trawler Estai in 1995 for disobeying international fishing laws close to Canada. There were multiple incidents with this boat, so the Canadian Coast Guard used a machine gun to request their cooperation. Spain sent it's navy to protect their fishermen, 4,000 km from home. Canada lost a lot of fish after that incident.
That treasure is now complete in a museum in Spain for anyone to see. It has not been sold coin by coin and divided only by economic interest and although it has been at the bottom of the sea for 200 years, only through the technology of recent years has it been able to be rescued.
Personally i think it should have been given to the British, since they plundered it and started a war over it, might as well shove it in the british museum.
2:12 just a correction here: deep water wrecks are not targeted because the ocean has been gentler on them, rather because there is FAR less chance it was salvaged. Shallow water wrecks (usually less than 100ft/30m) were often located and salvaged shortly after the wreck occurred by pearl diving slaves (in the Caribbean, anyway). also, the claim of $500m and more is bogus. I doubt any shipwreck has over $100m in bullion aboard. I am beginning to think people don't quite understand just how much $100m in specie really is!
@@Ob1sdarkside there was an alliance between the Spanish and the indigenous tribes who were being subjugated by the Incas. This is how Pizarro conquered the Inca empire. Cortes did the same with the Aztecs. Parts of the Incan nobility were maintained in their positions of privilege, just changing allegiance towards a new king and a new god but being part of the ruling elite in the new power structure. Why change allegiance to a new king? The troops sent by this new king had horses, more powerful weapons and tactics. Why change religion? For the same reason that christianity spread across Europe: it was much more humane than the religions they had and people were easily sold on it. Peru did not exist as a state before the Spanish conquest. The Peruvians of today are the heirs to the new culture that was created by mixing the Spanish and indigenous contributions, genetically and culturally. The way Peru became part of Spain is several light years more civilized than the way North America became part of England and then the US. The indigenous peoples were recognised as members of the Spanish crown, with the obligations of being treated humanely, by decree of queen Isabella, going back to the late 1400s, right after the discoveries of Columbus. Like Rome made Spaniards members of their empire, so did Spain with the people of the Americas. By contrast, in North America, 99% of the indigenous peoples were exterminated and the rest put in reserves. And if anyone is to blame for anything that happened in Peru between then and today, it is not the Spaniards of today, but the ancestors of the PEruvians of today. Having said that, most of the gold and silver of Peru stayed in Peru. It was used to build cathedrals and churches, towns, hospitals, universities (take a look at the old part of their cities, they are still there). Only a fifth was sent back to Spain (this was written in the law, and it had a name, the Quinto Real). The Spanish Americas were always richer, more stable and peaceful than Iberian Spain as they benefited from the imperial trade exchanges that reached as far as the Philipines without having to fight the European wars. It was after the independence that all the current troubles started. After their liberators, all members of the masonry and working for England, decomposed the empire in several small powerless republics. It was these republics that did the damage to the indigenous peoples in the 19th and 20th centuries. But they use hatred of Spain as a way to legitimise their own claim to power.
@RobertoGarcia-hf6bs Yeah, you see this happened in Ireland. The point is, Spain didn't belong in Peru and they took wealth from South America. It's called colonisation
@@Ob1sdarkside well, did Rome belong in Spain? Honestly, I am not sure I really understand the meaning of that question. What I would say is that the Roman empire fell but Rome remains in Spain, through the language, culture, laws, institutions, … Spaniards do not see the Romans as thieves and we do not consider ourselves as thieves with regards to the gold of the Americas… As for the term colonisation: in the sense that it is widely used nowadays, it tends to describe the Anglo Saxon colonisation, which is not in the Roman tradition of conquering and building, but in the tradition of mere pillaging and exploiting, with racial extermination rather than admixture. Sorry, there is a difference between what the English did and what the Spanish crown did. While it was not all perfect, the result is so much more positive. And again, whatever was done in Peru, was done by the grand grand parents of those who now accuse us Spaniards of being criminals and thieves. My ancestors did not move from Europe.
Okay so as a related question. When the atomic era began alot of steel and other metalic materials have slowly become contaminated with small amounts of radioactive impurities. These impurities prevent its use in ultra precise scientific equipment which require low background steel, IE steel with no contamination. One source of low background steel was pre wwii naval shipwrecks. Is there any evidence that vessels have been torn apart and re melted down to obtain this low background steel? Although nowadays its no longer an issue due to refined steel producing methods. But at one point it was a problem. Even a few hundred tons of steel like from a small vessel would suffice for thousands of instruments like Geiger counters.
Oh its a massive problem, most pre-atomic WWII ships are at risk of being ripped apart by Chinese mega $$ salvages, entire war graves decimated (HMAS Perth for example, Im Aussie). Tbh i don't really know why older sailing ships (with treasure) aren't seen in the same light, they should be left alone if you ask me. Let them rest, poor souls. Profiting off their graves will just encourage profiteering, risk taking and these already incredibly wealthy rich men grabbing & destroying our graves. Who cares about treasure when men & women have drowned..?
ONE MILLION shipwrecks unaccounted for, you say? Anyone fancy an adventure?? I'm serious. By the way, it's yet another highly evocative, well-researched, superbly written, brilliantly presented upload that you've graced us with. Thanks for sharing your endeavours. 👍
It’s logical countrires still have the complete rights to their ships, even after hundreds of years. Eventually we’ll probably have the technology to easily find and salvage most of the wrecks.
So if the descendant of the Neanderthal Ug of tribe Izzu claims rights to South Dakota... cool and fair... after the 93 other tribes that "claimed" ownership in the interim. There needs to be a time limit or it might become a feeding frenzy for lawyers and treasure hunters that destroy the artifacts for metal value as certain countries have a reputation of laying claim and taking all the proceeds.
When I worked at Borders I wrote chit-chat with customers if they bought an interesting book. Some guy bought one about shipwrecks, or something specific like first hand accounts of shipwrecks or their manifests or something, and I made a comment or asked some questions and he said he worked for a company or group looking to salvage treasure and artifacts. I stupidly asked where, which of course he didn't answer. But then he didn't answer any other questions at all. I didn't even know that was still a thing and I just wanted to know what that was like and it still pisses me off to this day. If you need to be that secret, don't admit to what you do. I forget why I thought he was legitimate and not putting me on, there was something we talked about beforehand, because Borders was probably not a go to vendor for such books. But dammit, don't bring up something interesting and then immediately clam up about it. Just say you're a historian or whatever.
Dude was full of sh*t... I've catered a quite a bit through treasure hunters. They ARE a secretive bunch, but in idle chat, it's WAY TOO EASY as a "pick-up tool" for girls to keep their mouths 100% shut... SO when you ask "Yeah? Whereabouts?" Then the correct answer is something more like "Oh... right now we're in the Mediterranean"... or "El Caribe... The Spanish Main... You know, Pirates and Buccaneers and tropical breezes off the Florida coast..."... and the like... Maybe the Arctic, or North Atlantic... etc... They won't get more specific OBVIOUSLY... AND will even caution you. "Look, if you're thinkin' of gettin' into the business, you gotta learn that loose lips sink ships, and forfeit gold you ain't found yet. SO we got us a theory about a few possible sites in the area. This is gonna detail a few things we can check against for a better shot at registering the right papers the first time. Nothing like a paperwork f*ck-up to put the whole operation in the sh*tter... so you want to have your eye's dotted and your tee's crossed before you get lawyers involved." AND then they'll probably change the subject... something about gear, or adventurous explorations... something anecdotal about diving with noob's or fishing to pass time... who knows... Life at sea is full of crazy sh*t! BUT just as the story in the vid' proved, the international "rules" aren't even really rules, because governments get into disagreements all the time, even MORE confounding anytime words like "Gold" or "Silver" or "Treasure" are involved. Wars have been started over less... accounting for thousands of lives destroyed. If you think your rinky-dinky little life is worth more for some reason, get over yourself. It's very easy to go broke for finding a VERY large amount of precious metal. ;o)
Especially if I put millions down and years into it. Only to have all these governments who never cared and I never entered the country… I’d rather drop it back into the ocean or give it to Mexico who they stole from. Like if you wanna play stolen property game I’m ready for bankruptcy and giving laundering it by giving all away coin by coin
Not if you're a married man, you own nothing even your childhood teddy bear as many men simply went home and barred from entering and become homeless and cash or cardless in one swoop by the divorce judges.
If you see a sinking ship, you go to help, your allowed to keep some of the cargo as a form of payment for the rescue attempt -basically- Theres some caveats and such
Actually no. The ship has to be abandoned or you have no right to salvage... and of course, good luck with the country abiding by anything legal or fair.
I think you asked the big question. I don't think for a second that the returned every coin, since there is no way to verify how much they actually recovered. I think they knew they wouldn't get to keep it, so they did it secretly and took as much as they could get away with
Pretty impressed if they got the ship for just 5mill. A lot of older AIS only has a reach of about 5-10kms as well, just enough to let another ship know before they hit you. Mining might be a good cover for treasure hunting. Explains why you're down there and scraping up the seabed. Interesting the majority of the expected treasure was never found... Another great video.
and that is why south america is full of native people, with all kinds of native languages, have universities that are even older tha USA itself... because they butchered them right... that is why USA has the natives in human zoos called reserves while south american countries have millions and millions of natives... Do you even use your braincells before talking? lmao.. that logic...
Spain was not being cooperative. They probably got pressured by an investment bank and their own lawyers gave them bad advice. Then, they gambled as you say. It was likely a combination of things.
There's a lot of people saying "finders, keepers" but I don't think the same attitude would be applied to land-based archeological digs. That is to say, treating it as "treasure" (that should be treated as a commodity) rather than "historical good" (that should be treated as a public good). I think it's interesting that they're treated like property. I guess I assumed that ownership was essentially null once a ship's been sunken for a few hundred years, but I guess that shows you what I know about international maritime law.
They should have kept their mouths shut and stayed off social media. A little work with a propane torch (OK a lot of work with many propane torches) could have turned that in to ingots, nuggets or whatever. Hell you could have made shot from it and sold the world's most expensive shot gun shells. If you are going to blab about it, and it is owned by a country, cut them in on it ahead of time.
Tragic beyond all circumstances..the price for black magic.When those contaminated relics are karmically returned to the thieves; expect the unexpected..history only repeats itself..
How much money do these countries give to archeologists and historians to go start expeditions and find these sites? I would rather someone find them than no one, especially if they could be severely encouraged to do so responsibly.
I am the same, I actually feel these guys should of made some profit as nobody cared until they put millions of dollars and years into searching.. it’s some dead kings money lost in war in another country ….. dude YOUR SPAIN YOU STOLE SO MUCH you shouldn’t wanna play “” stolen property”” with countries
Mining undersea minerals would entail locating and extracting precious metal deposits from the sea bed, sounds a lot like treasure hunting but without the complications of a previous owners legacy saying it's theirs.
@@waterlinestories Right on. Things much better than last time! Groceries, good tires and tons of snow these days and waiting for spring planting. Doubt I'd come BACK if I could walk thru to South Africa via Stargate. Hell, maybe NORTH A by this point! Cheers.
Yeah I'm back in Germany and counting the days to spring. But at least we don't have much snow right now where I am. If it weren't for my German wife I think I'd just stay in South Africa. I'll just keep working on that Stargate😳 Glad all is well your end
UK : We sank it and killed everyone onboard, its ours The courts : Good point, good point ... Spain : We stole it from natives, its ours The courts : Good point, good point ... Peru : It ours, they stole it from us The courts : LOL !!!! Worst argument ever.
Finders keepers, losers weepers! That's what I say, when it comes to sunken "stuff" thats been laying on the bottom of whatever body of water for X amount of years, then I say who ever gets it, should be able to keep it. Spain, if it was so important to them, then they could have done everything themselves, because for one reason, they have deeper pockets, resources, not to mention a NAVY, I mean c'mon this wasn't a 3rd world country or something, like take us for instance (🇺🇲) our Navy or other gov. agency, has every ability to retrieve something if they wanted or needed to. So what I'm getting at is nobody else cares enough, and doesn't even "try" to recover something, then someone comes along and does, well I believe it should be theirs! Anyone agree? If not what's your opinion? Be Blessed.
Yes maybe. I think when it comes to things like this it's very complicated. I think they found it so they deserve their spoils. Spain, I'm not so sure about. They took that from Peru, probably using slave labor. I don't think they really deserve to keep any of it. But I do think Peru should get at least some of it's treasure back. But the law use what it is. Having said that, not all countries prescribe to the same maritime law.
@@waterlinestories My opinion on who should be legally entitled to this find would be Peru. Considering it was more or less stolen by Spain, and as you mentioned, mined using more than likely slave labor. So I guess Spain got the gold, odyssey may have profited in their market value (smart on their part) and Peru got shafted! Spain announcing publicly a 50/50 split with Peru, then closing the door in their face, really is disgraceful and very selfish for a country that's an opposite of its former self, along with its fairly strict neutrality. Anyhow, the party that could of benefited the most lost out, so much for the little guy. Hard to imagine the riches that flowed out from the Americas, and what awaits discovery under our oceans. Thank you for replying, I enjoy the videos, keep 'em coming, be blessed!
If I was the explorers (who have taken ALL the risk/liability) and I was ordered to “return” the treasure to any entity not directly involved in any way in its recovery, I would load up the treasure, turn off the GPS, dump it back into the ocean somewhere, and offer to sell the coordinates to the claiming country for 99% of the value of the treasure. You want your treasure back? Go get it yourself. Oh and we’ve already done the legwork but it’ll cost you. And guard those coordinates like the formula for Coke. I would even consider not having them written down anywhere. Memorize them, write them down on my deathbed, and have my heirs memorize and then destroy them.
@@waterlinestories yeah mate like you say it can be complicated and you could argue different points for who owns it but for sure if someone is gonna go to all that trouble and effort to recover something then they should definitely have a right to benefit from it. It's definitely a bit of a shitty move for a government with plenty of money and abilities to just try and claim everything.
I definitely wouldn't be trusting that company with transparency after that debacle, seeing the effort they went though to hide their misbegotten haul (not to say it wasn't Spain's misbegotten haul either); shows they're not above obscuring the facts to achieve their own means. This feels like it was just a test to see how easy it is for them to skirt around the logistics/rules or something.
Kind of sad how this went done. It seems like the company would have continued to do responsible archeological work if it was easier for them to keep enough of the treasure to keep things going. I think Spain should have paid them a percentage nonetheless and they should have given the rest back to Peru
The law needs to be that ANYTHING lost more than 10 years has NO owner. This would not include stolen items, those should be declared to have NO owner after 100 years.
Oh I bet they're mining for minerals near where shipwrecks are claimed to be. Co-incidently ya know? I also bet they kept a few of those coins lol probably melted a bucket down and made some gold bars.
Well I expect nothing less from Spain. Their track record is horrible and i do mean in the worst way possible. I don't understand why people think Spain will be nice about it and the US seems to take others favor when it comes to money. What kind of people takes Spain's side.
Mining undersea minerals: Into the melting pot it goes... Still $60k/kg and untraceable, especially if alloyed with other gold, so no isotope analysis possible ;-)
Ha ha. Thanks. I really do appreciate that. Im still learning. Ive had some videos pop and this one, I worked on for almost two months, has not. I think this one is different from the topics Ive covered before and so it hasnt found its audience. Maybe my thumbnails arent attracting attention. Who knows. I was also away for over a month visiting family in South Africa and didnt publish so I lost some momentum. I think in the end the channel will get there.
@@waterlinestories Well for whatever it’s worth, you make good content at least! It’s gotta be slightly discouraging to put 2 months into anything and not see some kinda return on it in some way.. But hang in there. Hopefully it’ll pick up more soon for ya!.. 🤞🏼🤞🏼 It’s certainly not for a lack of effort anyways and it shows too!! 🫡
Thanks. Yeah, I just take it as 'I have stuff to learn'. It sucks sometimes but I know Im on the right track when I get comments like this. Over time things will fall into place. I think there is about to be an explosion of terrible AI generated content and so people will naturally gravitate to quality content. Ill just keep trying to improve and things will fall into place. Thanks for watching.
I mean, I can't blame them. And I agree they knew what they were doing, they didn't put up TOO much of a fight when ordered to just hand over the coins. Also, I'm guessing a quite a few, I know I would...
I think the Spanish have as much right to the treasure as they're willing to pay reparations to all of the people who are descendants of they raped and murdered.
Where are the Native Americans today, in the territories that were English and later American or in the Spanish territories? Who really killed the natives? Who built cities, hospitals and universities for the natives and who put them on reservations? You just have to look a little to discover the truth
Thanks for watching.
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You can bet the rest of the treasure hunting world has learned the lesson -- keep your head down, vacuum it up fast, leave fast, melt it down, quietly sell to buyers, and to hell with intangible archeology . What a bleeding shame.
That sounds pretty accurate
Yep, if you’re gonna be sneaky you gotta go all the way. Never shoulda taken pictures and shoulda melted it down.
I remember a video talking about archeology in Bolivia or Peru. They found little mummies or skeletons and collectors flew in on planes and took em a decade or two ago.
If you think about it the Uk was the largest looter of antiquities around the world and promotes it to this day with still having Chinese porcelain being sold in auctions etc or priceless things that’s owned by the government in museums.
The U.S. made a law museums must return Native American bodies etc but magically it’s ethical to keep mummies and gold coffins? There’s a ton of hypocrisy right there.
But ya treasure hunters will either melt finds down or they’ll try to sell it on the black market which I’m sure happens.
Spain not giving Peru shit is very spanish of them. Thievery is legal if countries do it.
dude, it is not just "a shit ton of gold", pero did not even exist back then.. what the hell are oyu talking about...
Uh, all that gold + silver was mined by those who lived in the area at the cost of many lives who were enslaved. Beyond that, between epidemics + conquering they killed 90% of the population. Spain deserves none of it.
It’s show that some Spaniards are full of crap to me. Surprise surprise 😅
They’ll say and do anything to get what they want (gold I this case) that they likely stole themselves in a far worst circumstances when they terrorised half of the globe during that era.
It’s old gold too, so you have no idea how many ppl suffered or payed the ultimate price for it to come into existence.
It’s like money these days, it’s not rly yours to keep. It’s just your turn with it for the time being.
Hell, it wouldn’t shock me if this old treasure has several curses attached to it.
Just look at the ppl now days getting in involved with it. They all suffered in more ways that ppl could explain.
Trikipum
Peru did exist a few years ago when the court case gave it to Spain.
Point is if you’re going to promote ethics and morals etc like others say about rule of law then you also must acknowledge Spain destroyed tons of civilizations and kidnapped rulers. Spain literally was a billionaire drug cartel haha in some sense. They did move drugs just like the Uk which is how the Uk got hung kong.
But point is Spain used slave labor to get the gold. Does Spain still own the land in Peru today? Obviously is Spain owned Peru still today then there’d be no question of Spain should own it. But since Spain lost their azz and all their form conquests why shouldn’t their prior colonies that they literally raped and pillaged why shouldnt they have a claim to it? In a world with dictatorships and no morals or ethics sure yes Spain 100% used slave labor to get the gold in Peru so they should own it still today, but if you think courts and society are better today you may just consider the land where the mines were or civilization was pillaged maybe they should own it.
Typical of EU countries. They ignore the rules and promises and to hell with any fines. Only the UK was stupid enough to obey everything
I have been binging your videos over the last 3 days. Your story telling is captivating and I think you’re going places! Keep it up!
Thanks, I really appreciate that
I second this, stumbled across the channel and I love listening to the stories told here!
As a retired diver, I can tell you, it’s cheaper to steal shit.
thats a fact
Lmao
Any stories you can share cryptically? 😉
YES !-AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT !!
Damn
I also feel like if Spain actually gave a crap they could have developed and paid for the technological means to locate and find the wreck. Its like someone winning the lottery and suddenly every long lost relative comes for a hand-out.
Uhhhh given the state of the country of spain in the last 300 years I dont think they could have afforded that. Spain can hardly keep herself in one piece.
Nobody asked them to come to our waters and take it out. Of course the government will sue if the treasure is being taken as property to a foreign country.
@@helloMRdj1cope harder, third world ass country lmao
More like the lost relative gets you drunk and robs you while stiffing the wife (Portugal) and leaving the country with the girlfriend.
There should be an automatic minimum bounty on the return of the treasure.
The value of an "archeological site" that no one will ever visit is also pretty close to convenient nonsense.
What the fuck? Someone digs up your dead grandpa and steals the rings on his fingers, and get to keep them because the grandchildren didn't choose to do it first?
Get fucked. The gold was fine where it was. If it was gonna go anywhere, it's not some fucking American graverobbers
Sadly, as a result of the current policies in respect of recovered treasure, much of archeology will be lost to history. The Spanish would not get off their backsides to recover what they claim to be theirs, yet shout and scream as soon as someone with enterprise and energy does the hard work. There needs to be a revision of the current terms whereby the finder is guaranteed a substantial percentage of the recovered value. The ship, perfectly equipped for the work of recovery is no longer searching for treasure, the additional knowledge we gain from the archeology is wasting away on the sea-bed. The Spanish should be ashamed, they didn't deserve one coin from the find.
finders keepers
Do I hear the spanish compensating all their victims through the inquisition ? Where is their strong sense or justice there ? They were happy to profit and continue to profit from their sins.
Not a one.
Lol "finders keepers" is a concept that belongs on the primary school playground, and nowhere else. In the real world, people are expected to act like actual mature adults and follow basic moral tenets, one example being to recognize that the act of losing a piece of property due to circumstances beyond the owner's control does NOT automatically strip ownership rights from that party. If you lost your wallet out in the world, wouldn't you shout and scream if someone just helped themselves to your cash, your credit, your identity? Or would you be okay with them taking all of those things because you weren't out looking hard enough for it, so therefore "finders keepers"?
It's sad that this even needs to be explained, but then there is a shocking number of grown-ass people who mentally seem to have never left the primary school playground.... 🤦🏼♂️
@pizzlerot2730 don't retrieve your shit for decades or hundreds of years? That's on you. Finders keepers makes sense here. An entire national government could easily do it, not doing it is their fault.
Spain 🇪🇸 said we’d share it with Peru 🇵🇪
Then said nah
Half a billion will do that to you.
Spoken like a true colonizer. @@waterlinestories
I'm South African. We were colonised. Not the coloniser.
@@tolufapohunda3420 Better to colonize than be colonized
Tbf the treasure was stolen from Peru in the first place. Britain has as much of a claim as Spain.
The whole idea of finding treasure is to be able to keep it for yourself and get rich. I’m not dedicating my time and energy and money into finding something that will just get taken away for me with out not even a thank you.
It really should be finders keepers. Most of those wrecks were probably paid back by insurance anyways. Hey that could be a good hustle, insure a ship, "sink" said ship, than have the precious cargo recovered, because apparently you still own it after insurance pays you...
What you think happen with the titanic ? The theory is they sunk the twin ship (completely identical) for insurance claims. The actual titanic never actually wrecked (up for speculation) but yea bro. The titanic was one big insurance scam
@@kingscavenger4372 Yeah i heard that it may have been swapped with the sister ship, the Olympic. Very possible. Back then no one would know the difference
@@kingscavenger4372 People still haven't given up on this idiotic theory? If it was an insurance scam it was a pretty terrible one; the Titanic was very underinsured, the White Star Line lost a huge amount of money on the sinking, and that's not even counting that bad PR.
If insurance company pays out, they are considered the "owners" after that.
Government ships were almost never privately insured.
They should have kept it all. The fact that a country can plunder gold from another country and then later claim the shipwreck is theirs is diabolical and has murderous intent. Stupid laws.
plunder gold from another country?. At that point, it was spanish provices.. it was not "another country".. there wasnt even countries there back then.. what the hell are you talking about man?...It is funny, so americans stole another country of everything too?, or how many countries did they stole from? (appart from mexico of course, but that happened basically yesterday...).. tell me more about this logic you apply...
The museum in Cartagena, Spain displays some of the gold and describes it as being stolen from Spain by the treasure hunters. The museum doesn't mention that the gold was stolen from the indigenous people who slaved in the gold mines. Shameless and disgusting.
You speak very well, sir! It's a pleasure listening to your stories!!
Thanks
Yeah, people coming to your shore and sovereign waters to take valuable heritage for then to sell the coins as necklaces is the way to go. As a Spaniard that went to Key West, FL some tears came to my eyes when people were buying necklaces from the Nuestra Señora de Atocha for 25 dollars and the "visionary" that found it was selling a book on getting rich fast. Eiter Spain or the Latin American country where the gold was take from should put the treasure in a museum, not in some billionaires garage.
Because politicians aren't theives and they won't use ownership of the treasure to peddle influence to the highest bidder... the Obama admin tried to sell the owners out to hand deliver someone else's treasure to Spain if their Literal friend could get some painting in return.
Remind me Who has destroyed the economies of their people over and over again... Socialists? (Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba, Franco's Spain, Nazi Germany). Which "billionaires" were involved here or in any major treasure hunting find?
"Valuable heritage?" The site is at the bottom of the sea... there will be no tours.
The intent Was to sell it to museums and collectors and give the country a cut. But certain countries have a reputation of just taking it all.
What new wonders could be uncovered by a bunch of gold coins in the dark of the ocean in international waters... Spain going to sell tickets?
What value if all salvage companies just take the gold and melt it down because they Know some politician will steal the treasure and sell it for influence.
Nothing real from that ship is being sold for $25. 🤦♂️
canta y no llores
Cool story but I don't think any of us will ever know really how many coins they kept. Really nice haul though!!
😂 I definitely would have kept a bucket full
@@waterlinestories Or 2 or 3....
🤫
I would have kept most and claims finding such amount and see what the greedy politics say. A metal melter should be on ship
Yup. Here in South America, we tend to joke about sPAIN giving back the gold that they "stole". (In the 16th century they suffered 5 cycles of inflation for that, hehe) 😂
Good vid m8
I wonder if one of the owners just felt Spain would be way worse than the other countries and figured they wouldn't get anything anyways, so they might as well just try to make a break for it and see what happens.
I knew salvage laws could get complicated, but I thought operators were guaranteed a certain percentage no matter what. Maybe their shenanigans defeated this or the archeological value negated it.
Maybe countries could offer a certain reward for locating and confirming sites as long searchers adhere to certain rules. I'm not sure how much money countries give to archeologists and historians to conduct expeditions to find such sites, especially if there's not a ton of evidence. Finding some middle ground might be better as more of these sites disappear year by year.
Salvage is one thing when its private. International Maritime laws are not even agreed by all countries.
The more a I make these stories the more I realise that maritime expeditions are just not governed by the same rule as land. It really is the wild west and nobody or government agrees.
Even when it seems clear that theres foul play, it almost never comes to any prosecution. Maritime Industry is an incredibly fascinating world.
As someone who lives in Spain, I would not be surprised if the undersea exploration company had their lawyers perform due diligence with the Spanish authorities and realised they wouldn't have a ghost of a chance of keeping anything they found. Ask yourselves how much of that wealth subsequently went into the pockets of certain Spanish government officials.
@@h5mind373 Considering the shear magnitude of the find, and the relative fiasco that IS STILL the Spanish Government's budget... for all the obvious profit margin, something's not getting where it should be...
...AND I'll leave it at that. ;o)
I have a deep suspicion a couple tons of gold coins disappeared here or there on the way to Florida :D
@@h5mind373 I would agree. Portugal got strong armed quite quickly... if they could do that to another government, why not take everything from the private salvage company.
All im certain of is Spain did not deserve a single artifact from that ship. It wasnt theirs when it went down and it surely isnt now.
Im sorry but no way in hell I would be giving shit back to a govt who didnt do shit for it. I would rather die than give treasure back to a state who stole it in the first place.
I think I'd just keep it's secret and slowly sell it into the black market.
I agree 100%. I would have taken 85% of the buckets full of gold and said the remaining 15% was all we extracted if I was feeling friendly.
@@waterlinestories I bet they kept a couple handfuls and sold a couple coins for a pretty penny.
@SonicPhonic I’m sure it was a few buckets of coins 🤣
If a country does not make any effort to salvage a ship for over 100 years. Any treasure hunters that find it should be able to keep it. Spain and England both can afford to do the same but chose not to. Their loss.
Spain couldn't. It doesn't even begin to compare to the UK.
I think it would be totally moral of them if they gave Spain 1% and hid the rest. I hope they kept most of it.
Right? I am sure the Spanish Empire acquired all that gold and silver entirely morally
Plundered gold from another country is kept by Spain - he he -
You have a great narration voice, thanks for the stories
It sounds like they were the only one willing and or capable in reaching & recovering the gold.
Finders keepers. They should have got 50% at least.
This happens because investors demand a public company must increase profits ad infinitum- an impossibility- which leads to exactly these sorts of desperate and illegal measures.
Because investors want return on their money?
Why be an investor at all of you don't want a return?
Do you understand how soialism and capitalism work?
Check Wikipedia.
Start with this: Getting nothing for something only works in the deluded minds of socialism.
No, in this case it had _nothing_ to do with the greed of the salvage company. It was simply bad faith greed on the part of the Spanish government, which is STILL little better than the Franco government.
There shouldn’t be any possible way for a government to take control of lost treasure!! If you didn’t spend the time, money and equipment to locate it, then you shouldn’t be able to get any of it.. If they were that concerned about getting it back then they should’ve been the ones putting in the work to bring it up!! Been at the bottom of the ocean for hundreds of years. But the second someone actually tracks it down, all a sudden they want their cut. If not the whole damn thing.. SMMFH.. Bunch of no good slimeballs if ya ask me!… 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️
The reason they tie it up in court is so they can send their own people out to recover it, cutting the real finders completely out of the game.. That’s most likely the reason for not using their location on the ship. Can’t trust anyone, especially not any government!!! I ever find anything like that and Imma melt it all down. Idc about a historical value one bit. If you find something, just keep ya mouth shut or someone gunna relive it from your possession one way or the other most likely unfortunately..
I'm South African. We have, how shall I say, loose morals. I think off keep a treasure and not tell anyone. The trick would be to melt it down and sell it slowly to different people without attracting attention. An ounce here and an ounce there.
Probably won't be easy to recover the tens of millions it takes to find it.
@@waterlinestories I got thinking about this last night actually. I’d do it one of two ways. First thing that I’d do after location is go to those who will try taking it away, (AKA the government) and say look, this is what I’ve found, and this is what I want to reveal the said location. Then tell them that if they don’t want to pay. Then I shall go to people on the black market side of things and offer them the same exact deal. But make sure that they are well aware that if I’m forced to go that route, they obviously won’t have any way to recover it down the road. Because that’s exactly what they’d do, melt it all down and enter it into circulation among their various types of ways.. It’s pretty simple. If I go through the trouble of actually tracking down said treasure, then I’m absolutely going to get paid for my time, equipment, knowledge and whatever else all that entails! But one way or another, im fixin to get that bag!! 🤷🏻♂️😁
@@waterlinestories Even if my actions mean that I must go to prison for however long.. Least I know that im set for life once I’m released.. That or my family would be at the very least! 🤷🏻♂️🙌🏼
The problem is, loose lips sink ships.
You wouldn't be able to run an operation line this single handed so while you're in prison, sone other schmack is selling your secret.
Nope I think you have to extract it abed smelt it down or sell it on the black market.
@@waterlinestories Well yeah, you’d obviously split it up amongst the crew. Then you’d take your cut and stash it away with the only person knowing your hiding spot being a family member. That way if I’m not getting out, they’d be able to retrieve it when they’d need it. But yeah melting it down would likely be the best way to get the most out of what’s been found tho!.
If I found that treasure I would refer Spain to the international maritime law of FINDERS VS. KEEPERS.
The US Gov would have sided with the Spanish, and after identity was made of the wreck, refusal to pay would have resulted in your company being fined the alleged value of the the treasure or risk arrest and forceful seizure of the value. The US & Spain have an extradition treaty as well.
Great story. This reminds me of when Canada seized the Spanish fishing trawler Estai in 1995 for disobeying international fishing laws close to Canada. There were multiple incidents with this boat, so the Canadian Coast Guard used a machine gun to request their cooperation. Spain sent it's navy to protect their fishermen, 4,000 km from home. Canada lost a lot of fish after that incident.
By jove! How bloody interesting.
Yeah it’s one of the more interesting ones I think.
@@waterlinestories Most definitely. Brand new insight into something I knew absolutely nothing about. Brilliant.
That treasure is now complete in a museum in Spain for anyone to see. It has not been sold coin by coin and divided only by economic interest and although it has been at the bottom of the sea for 200 years, only through the technology of recent years has it been able to be rescued.
What a story! ( international greed) so very well researched & delivered!
Thanks. It’s one of those stories that has so many interesting aspects. I really enjoyed researching it.
I wonder how many items went for a "walk" while it was at florida?
Personally i think it should have been given to the British, since they plundered it and started a war over it, might as well shove it in the british museum.
2:12 just a correction here: deep water wrecks are not targeted because the ocean has been gentler on them, rather because there is FAR less chance it was salvaged. Shallow water wrecks (usually less than 100ft/30m) were often located and salvaged shortly after the wreck occurred by pearl diving slaves (in the Caribbean, anyway). also, the claim of $500m and more is bogus. I doubt any shipwreck has over $100m in bullion aboard. I am beginning to think people don't quite understand just how much $100m in specie really is!
13:02 bet they were fed up and under 360 deg pressure
Yep. I mean inside waiting six years And having the distinct feeling another country will put a spanner in the works.
Top notch piracy! Peru is the country that was hard done by. As for the lads, they're in it for the money
Peru was part of Spain at the time. They emancipated later. When you leave your parents' house you don't get to take away their possessions.
@RobertoGarcia-hf6bs and how did Peru become "part" of Spain?
@@Ob1sdarkside there was an alliance between the Spanish and the indigenous tribes who were being subjugated by the Incas. This is how Pizarro conquered the Inca empire. Cortes did the same with the Aztecs. Parts of the Incan nobility were maintained in their positions of privilege, just changing allegiance towards a new king and a new god but being part of the ruling elite in the new power structure. Why change allegiance to a new king? The troops sent by this new king had horses, more powerful weapons and tactics. Why change religion? For the same reason that christianity spread across Europe: it was much more humane than the religions they had and people were easily sold on it. Peru did not exist as a state before the Spanish conquest. The Peruvians of today are the heirs to the new culture that was created by mixing the Spanish and indigenous contributions, genetically and culturally. The way Peru became part of Spain is several light years more civilized than the way North America became part of England and then the US. The indigenous peoples were recognised as members of the Spanish crown, with the obligations of being treated humanely, by decree of queen Isabella, going back to the late 1400s, right after the discoveries of Columbus. Like Rome made Spaniards members of their empire, so did Spain with the people of the Americas. By contrast, in North America, 99% of the indigenous peoples were exterminated and the rest put in reserves. And if anyone is to blame for anything that happened in Peru between then and today, it is not the Spaniards of today, but the ancestors of the PEruvians of today. Having said that, most of the gold and silver of Peru stayed in Peru. It was used to build cathedrals and churches, towns, hospitals, universities (take a look at the old part of their cities, they are still there). Only a fifth was sent back to Spain (this was written in the law, and it had a name, the Quinto Real). The Spanish Americas were always richer, more stable and peaceful than Iberian Spain as they benefited from the imperial trade exchanges that reached as far as the Philipines without having to fight the European wars. It was after the independence that all the current troubles started. After their liberators, all members of the masonry and working for England, decomposed the empire in several small powerless republics. It was these republics that did the damage to the indigenous peoples in the 19th and 20th centuries. But they use hatred of Spain as a way to legitimise their own claim to power.
@RobertoGarcia-hf6bs Yeah, you see this happened in Ireland. The point is, Spain didn't belong in Peru and they took wealth from South America. It's called colonisation
@@Ob1sdarkside well, did Rome belong in Spain? Honestly, I am not sure I really understand the meaning of that question. What I would say is that the Roman empire fell but Rome remains in Spain, through the language, culture, laws, institutions, … Spaniards do not see the Romans as thieves and we do not consider ourselves as thieves with regards to the gold of the Americas… As for the term colonisation: in the sense that it is widely used nowadays, it tends to describe the Anglo Saxon colonisation, which is not in the Roman tradition of conquering and building, but in the tradition of mere pillaging and exploiting, with racial extermination rather than admixture. Sorry, there is a difference between what the English did and what the Spanish crown did. While it was not all perfect, the result is so much more positive. And again, whatever was done in Peru, was done by the grand grand parents of those who now accuse us Spaniards of being criminals and thieves. My ancestors did not move from Europe.
Okay so as a related question. When the atomic era began alot of steel and other metalic materials have slowly become contaminated with small amounts of radioactive impurities. These impurities prevent its use in ultra precise scientific equipment which require low background steel, IE steel with no contamination. One source of low background steel was pre wwii naval shipwrecks.
Is there any evidence that vessels have been torn apart and re melted down to obtain this low background steel? Although nowadays its no longer an issue due to refined steel producing methods. But at one point it was a problem. Even a few hundred tons of steel like from a small vessel would suffice for thousands of instruments like Geiger counters.
Oh its a massive problem, most pre-atomic WWII ships are at risk of being ripped apart by Chinese mega $$ salvages, entire war graves decimated (HMAS Perth for example, Im Aussie). Tbh i don't really know why older sailing ships (with treasure) aren't seen in the same light, they should be left alone if you ask me. Let them rest, poor souls. Profiting off their graves will just encourage profiteering, risk taking and these already incredibly wealthy rich men grabbing & destroying our graves. Who cares about treasure when men & women have drowned..?
Greed is something that affects all aspects of this world.
ONE MILLION shipwrecks unaccounted for, you say? Anyone fancy an adventure?? I'm serious.
By the way, it's yet another highly evocative, well-researched, superbly written, brilliantly presented upload that you've graced us with. Thanks for sharing your endeavours. 👍
Yeah when I was researching ships and their cost I thought I’d love to have $10 mil lying around so I can go search for shipwrecks
Im in .just say when
Ok the crew is starting to take shape. Just need a ship
It's a fantastic dream. If I had money I would join up.
@@waterlinestories what about the calypso?
When a choice is completely failing or getting sued corporations will always choose being sued. 👩🔧
It’s logical countrires still have the complete rights to their ships, even after hundreds of years. Eventually we’ll probably have the technology to easily find and salvage most of the wrecks.
So if the descendant of the Neanderthal Ug of tribe Izzu claims rights to South Dakota... cool and fair... after the 93 other tribes that "claimed" ownership in the interim.
There needs to be a time limit or it might become a feeding frenzy for lawyers and treasure hunters that destroy the artifacts for metal value as certain countries have a reputation of laying claim and taking all the proceeds.
I like the chalkboard raised up like that a few inches higher makes a big difference :)
He who plunders first maintains all future rights, duh.
When I worked at Borders I wrote chit-chat with customers if they bought an interesting book. Some guy bought one about shipwrecks, or something specific like first hand accounts of shipwrecks or their manifests or something, and I made a comment or asked some questions and he said he worked for a company or group looking to salvage treasure and artifacts. I stupidly asked where, which of course he didn't answer. But then he didn't answer any other questions at all. I didn't even know that was still a thing and I just wanted to know what that was like and it still pisses me off to this day. If you need to be that secret, don't admit to what you do. I forget why I thought he was legitimate and not putting me on, there was something we talked about beforehand, because Borders was probably not a go to vendor for such books. But dammit, don't bring up something interesting and then immediately clam up about it. Just say you're a historian or whatever.
I think he was probably excited to talk about it and as oo as he opened his mouth he remembered his boss telling him to say nothing. Funny exchange.
Dude was full of sh*t... I've catered a quite a bit through treasure hunters. They ARE a secretive bunch, but in idle chat, it's WAY TOO EASY as a "pick-up tool" for girls to keep their mouths 100% shut...
SO when you ask "Yeah? Whereabouts?" Then the correct answer is something more like "Oh... right now we're in the Mediterranean"... or "El Caribe... The Spanish Main... You know, Pirates and Buccaneers and tropical breezes off the Florida coast..."... and the like... Maybe the Arctic, or North Atlantic... etc...
They won't get more specific OBVIOUSLY... AND will even caution you. "Look, if you're thinkin' of gettin' into the business, you gotta learn that loose lips sink ships, and forfeit gold you ain't found yet. SO we got us a theory about a few possible sites in the area. This is gonna detail a few things we can check against for a better shot at registering the right papers the first time. Nothing like a paperwork f*ck-up to put the whole operation in the sh*tter... so you want to have your eye's dotted and your tee's crossed before you get lawyers involved."
AND then they'll probably change the subject... something about gear, or adventurous explorations... something anecdotal about diving with noob's or fishing to pass time... who knows... Life at sea is full of crazy sh*t! BUT just as the story in the vid' proved, the international "rules" aren't even really rules, because governments get into disagreements all the time, even MORE confounding anytime words like "Gold" or "Silver" or "Treasure" are involved. Wars have been started over less... accounting for thousands of lives destroyed.
If you think your rinky-dinky little life is worth more for some reason, get over yourself. It's very easy to go broke for finding a VERY large amount of precious metal. ;o)
If I find it I'm keeping it not saying a word lol
Especially if I put millions down and years into it. Only to have all these governments who never cared and I never entered the country… I’d rather drop it back into the ocean or give it to Mexico who they stole from. Like if you wanna play stolen property game I’m ready for bankruptcy and giving laundering it by giving all away coin by coin
60 years ago my dad told me -Possession is nine tenths of the law. Secure their treasure & let the lawyers fight it out.
Not if you're a married man, you own nothing even your childhood teddy bear as many men simply went home and barred from entering and become homeless and cash or cardless in one swoop by the divorce judges.
Well, that seems that’s exactly what they did, they secured the treasure then their lawyers lost and they had to give up the treasure.
They were wrong it was not there's, greed again, it Temps man.
Should have followed the charter.
That's what it's there for. Thanks for watching
I’m sure Odyssey Marine was certainly looking for archeological items... for a price... likely hefty.
If you see a sinking ship, you go to help, your allowed to keep some of the cargo as a form of payment for the rescue attempt
-basically- Theres some caveats and such
Yep
Oh, forgot a "Sinking ship" means one that has been in the bottom of the ocean for 200 years
Actually no. The ship has to be abandoned or you have no right to salvage... and of course, good luck with the country abiding by anything legal or fair.
You could find a ship on the moon and Spain would say it was theirs.
It's a second-world country. Their money has to come from somewhere.
aww yeh time for snacks and some waterline stories my tuesday just got goood
Now Im thinking about Popcorn...
I think you asked the big question. I don't think for a second that the returned every coin, since there is no way to verify how much they actually recovered. I think they knew they wouldn't get to keep it, so they did it secretly and took as much as they could get away with
Pretty impressed if they got the ship for just 5mill. A lot of older AIS only has a reach of about 5-10kms as well, just enough to let another ship know before they hit you.
Mining might be a good cover for treasure hunting. Explains why you're down there and scraping up the seabed.
Interesting the majority of the expected treasure was never found...
Another great video.
find a bunch of cannons..."yeah you can have them."
find 1 gold ding-bat...everybody is gonna sue everybody to get it.
I don't blame oydessy. Spain butchered South America.
and that is why south america is full of native people, with all kinds of native languages, have universities that are even older tha USA itself... because they butchered them right... that is why USA has the natives in human zoos called reserves while south american countries have millions and millions of natives... Do you even use your braincells before talking? lmao.. that logic...
Another great video! Cheers🎉
Thanks
Spain was not being cooperative. They probably got pressured by an investment bank and their own lawyers gave them bad advice. Then, they gambled as you say. It was likely a combination of things.
So taking stuff from someone's property is not stealing, but demanding the return of said property is stealing? WTF?!?!
Good video , shame about click bait title though
There's a lot of people saying "finders, keepers" but I don't think the same attitude would be applied to land-based archeological digs. That is to say, treating it as "treasure" (that should be treated as a commodity) rather than "historical good" (that should be treated as a public good). I think it's interesting that they're treated like property. I guess I assumed that ownership was essentially null once a ship's been sunken for a few hundred years, but I guess that shows you what I know about international maritime law.
Your narratives are perfectly "digested"--they are substantive AND "go down well"!
Thanks I appreciate that
They should have kept their mouths shut and stayed off social media.
A little work with a propane torch (OK a lot of work with many propane torches) could have turned that in to ingots, nuggets or whatever.
Hell you could have made shot from it and sold the world's most expensive shot gun shells.
If you are going to blab about it, and it is owned by a country, cut them in on it ahead of time.
You make very interesting videos. I enjoy them a lot.
Thanks for saying so I really appreciate that
They tried to pull what I call the "go on take the money and run".
I can tell you if I was anywhere near that operation I'd have a gold coin of two
Did you say a bucket or two?
Tragic beyond all circumstances..the price for black magic.When those contaminated relics are karmically returned to the thieves; expect the unexpected..history only repeats itself..
How much money do these countries give to archeologists and historians to go start expeditions and find these sites? I would rather someone find them than no one, especially if they could be severely encouraged to do so responsibly.
I am the same, I actually feel these guys should of made some profit as nobody cared until they put millions of dollars and years into searching.. it’s some dead kings money lost in war in another country ….. dude YOUR SPAIN YOU STOLE SO MUCH you shouldn’t wanna play “” stolen property”” with countries
Treasure hunters with an archeological degree.
Another quality video 😊
Thanks
Cool, so if I find a shipwreck with nothing of value from X, Y or Z country they'll come clean it up.
Mining undersea minerals would entail locating and extracting precious metal deposits from the sea bed, sounds a lot like treasure hunting but without the complications of a previous owners legacy saying it's theirs.
Yep. I did see they've already been involved in litigation over something. I haven't read up on it just yet.
Well done. Really weaved a tapestry from ... uh, a few threads from this end if that can even rate. Agree completely w/motivation theory.
Hey Vince. Oh yeah I had plenty of great research to stue on. And way too much time in South Africa to mull over it.
How are you getting on?
@@waterlinestories Right on. Things much better than last time! Groceries, good tires and tons of snow these days and waiting for spring planting. Doubt I'd come BACK if I could walk thru to South Africa via Stargate. Hell, maybe NORTH A by this point! Cheers.
Yeah I'm back in Germany and counting the days to spring. But at least we don't have much snow right now where I am.
If it weren't for my German wife I think I'd just stay in South Africa. I'll just keep working on that Stargate😳
Glad all is well your end
UK : We sank it and killed everyone onboard, its ours
The courts : Good point, good point ...
Spain : We stole it from natives, its ours
The courts : Good point, good point ...
Peru : It ours, they stole it from us
The courts : LOL !!!! Worst argument ever.
Just raise the Jolly Roger and head down to the West Indies.
Finders keepers, losers weepers! That's what I say, when it comes to sunken "stuff" thats been laying on the bottom of whatever body of water for X amount of years, then I say who ever gets it, should be able to keep it. Spain, if it was so important to them, then they could have done everything themselves, because for one reason, they have deeper pockets, resources, not to mention a NAVY, I mean c'mon this wasn't a 3rd world country or something, like take us for instance (🇺🇲) our Navy or other gov. agency, has every ability to retrieve something if they wanted or needed to. So what I'm getting at is nobody else cares enough, and doesn't even "try" to recover something, then someone comes along and does, well I believe it should be theirs! Anyone agree? If not what's your opinion? Be Blessed.
Yes maybe. I think when it comes to things like this it's very complicated. I think they found it so they deserve their spoils. Spain, I'm not so sure about. They took that from Peru, probably using slave labor. I don't think they really deserve to keep any of it. But I do think Peru should get at least some of it's treasure back.
But the law use what it is. Having said that, not all countries prescribe to the same maritime law.
@@waterlinestories My opinion on who should be legally entitled to this find would be Peru. Considering it was more or less stolen by Spain, and as you mentioned, mined using more than likely slave labor. So I guess Spain got the gold, odyssey may have profited in their market value (smart on their part) and Peru got shafted! Spain announcing publicly a 50/50 split with Peru, then closing the door in their face, really is disgraceful and very selfish for a country that's an opposite of its former self, along with its fairly strict neutrality. Anyhow, the party that could of benefited the most lost out, so much for the little guy. Hard to imagine the riches that flowed out from the Americas, and what awaits discovery under our oceans.
Thank you for replying, I enjoy the videos, keep 'em coming, be blessed!
If I was the explorers (who have taken ALL the risk/liability) and I was ordered to “return” the treasure to any entity not directly involved in any way in its recovery, I would load up the treasure, turn off the GPS, dump it back into the ocean somewhere, and offer to sell the coordinates to the claiming country for 99% of the value of the treasure. You want your treasure back? Go get it yourself. Oh and we’ve already done the legwork but it’ll cost you. And guard those coordinates like the formula for Coke. I would even consider not having them written down anywhere. Memorize them, write them down on my deathbed, and have my heirs memorize and then destroy them.
@@waterlinestories yeah mate like you say it can be complicated and you could argue different points for who owns it but for sure if someone is gonna go to all that trouble and effort to recover something then they should definitely have a right to benefit from it. It's definitely a bit of a shitty move for a government with plenty of money and abilities to just try and claim everything.
I definitely wouldn't be trusting that company with transparency after that debacle, seeing the effort they went though to hide their misbegotten haul (not to say it wasn't Spain's misbegotten haul either); shows they're not above obscuring the facts to achieve their own means. This feels like it was just a test to see how easy it is for them to skirt around the logistics/rules or something.
They only work about 4 hours a day. They have to steal somehow somewhere. If anything the finding company should at very least get half.
Kind of sad how this went done. It seems like the company would have continued to do responsible archeological work if it was easier for them to keep enough of the treasure to keep things going. I think Spain should have paid them a percentage nonetheless and they should have given the rest back to Peru
If people could share, and be honest, it would work. But...
Sounds like a pyramid scheme.
Might as well be
They're probably "mining" treasure right now 🤔
That time Odyssey became pirates 😂
Anglo Saxon piracy ... TWICE
The real treasure is the friends we made along the way.... or something
The law needs to be that ANYTHING lost more than 10 years has NO owner. This would not include stolen items, those should be declared to have NO owner after 100 years.
Once something is written off as a total loss, it should be "finders keepers." Ownership should have a statute of limitations on it, yes.
@@snuurferalangur4357 Name a museum that does NOT claim lost things from around the world.
Oh I bet they're mining for minerals near where shipwrecks are claimed to be. Co-incidently ya know?
I also bet they kept a few of those coins lol probably melted a bucket down and made some gold bars.
I would have. 😇
Lol yeah mate it wouldn't be surprising would it.
I'd say they kept enough to pay that million dollar fine.
Well I expect nothing less from Spain. Their track record is horrible and i do mean in the worst way possible.
I don't understand why people think Spain will be nice about it and the US seems to take others favor when it comes to money. What kind of people takes Spain's side.
Mining undersea minerals: Into the melting pot it goes...
Still $60k/kg and untraceable, especially if alloyed with other gold, so no isotope analysis possible ;-)
I feel like this channel is super underrated.. Almost 11K in subs, 934 views buy yet I’m only the 69th 👍🏼 somehow.. 🤔🤷🏻♂️
Ha ha. Thanks. I really do appreciate that. Im still learning. Ive had some videos pop and this one, I worked on for almost two months, has not. I think this one is different from the topics Ive covered before and so it hasnt found its audience. Maybe my thumbnails arent attracting attention. Who knows. I was also away for over a month visiting family in South Africa and didnt publish so I lost some momentum. I think in the end the channel will get there.
@@waterlinestories Well for whatever it’s worth, you make good content at least! It’s gotta be slightly discouraging to put 2 months into anything and not see some kinda return on it in some way.. But hang in there. Hopefully it’ll pick up more soon for ya!.. 🤞🏼🤞🏼 It’s certainly not for a lack of effort anyways and it shows too!! 🫡
Thanks. Yeah, I just take it as 'I have stuff to learn'. It sucks sometimes but I know Im on the right track when I get comments like this. Over time things will fall into place. I think there is about to be an explosion of terrible AI generated content and so people will naturally gravitate to quality content. Ill just keep trying to improve and things will fall into place. Thanks for watching.
@@waterlinestories Yessir! We’ll keep up the great work man! I’ll definitely keep watching!! 🙌🏼👍🏼
ok THIS is fascinating
Spain stole this treasure: twice from peruvians
Lekker to see some quality content from a South African, cheers!
🤣 Thanks. Good to see a Saffa watching.
Since the courts have ruled in favor of Spain, why the headline of "Spain stoles twice..." that's not fair, dont you think so?
Deal with it, Spaniard!
I mean, I can't blame them. And I agree they knew what they were doing, they didn't put up TOO much of a fight when ordered to just hand over the coins. Also, I'm guessing a quite a few, I know I would...
Yes they did. Took it to the US Supreme Court, but they refused to hear it.
It's not Treasure if you can't steal it.
I think the Spanish have as much right to the treasure as they're willing to pay reparations to all of the people who are descendants of they raped and murdered.
Where are the Native Americans today, in the territories that were English and later American or in the Spanish territories? Who really killed the natives? Who built cities, hospitals and universities for the natives and who put them on reservations? You just have to look a little to discover the truth
I’m sure they’ll give 😉 everything back 😂
So what happend with HMS Sussex wreck?