I discovered your channel a few days ago and it has been really valuable for me. I have been trying to restructure my vault based on the information you are providing. The logic behind tagging/linking wasn't clicking in my head, this makes more sense. All your videos so far are really resonating with me and my ADHD brain! Thank you.
This video is very precious. I've already developed this mindset on my own (the main difference is that I don't use folgezettel), your explanation wil be useful for many others
In the transcript and the abstract the zettel is misspeled foge- or foglezettel. It should be folgezettel.: ich folge dich/dir = i follow you. Search versus note-sequencing. You can get lost in the development of thinking paths and the next step will be using the search-tool. In the meantime your memory improves during this journey. Liberian Pascal Martinolli teaches his students to keep a log in order to manage the mismatches in their searching-process! Liberians use classification-systems, like the Dewey Decimal Classification, in order to overlook millions of books. The Zettelkasten is faceted classification.of objects. You can not use it as an alfabetical system, that explains why you need concept notes or atomic notes to make it possible to establish a folgezettel. The search in your Zettelkasten can be elaborated and improved by using the LATCH-system (only) in your tag-system. You can search in a matrix manner, which enhances your chances of serendipity and emergence. Good video. Your methodology of the Zettelkasten seems to be a grounded theory (timestamp 12:58)!
Well thought-out. Thanks for sharing. For me, Luhmann’s numbering scheme was a record of his original line of thinking about a topic, as well as a method to uniquely identify notes for cross-reference purposes. You have extended that idea in very interesting ways.
Yea you nailed it. Thank you. I hope I was able to communicate this concept effectively, I understand it can be confusing at first. It took me a while to wrap my head around it myself and it didnt really click until I forced myself to do it with an analog zk
I liked the idea proposed here. The way you explain makes sense and that's definitely something that was lost with the digital transition Also the whole context you show here made me think about the possibility of adding a property to the note with the parent note (and maybe the last note in sequence) this combined with the numbering would allow you to follow your line of thought. And if another idea relates with a previous one (like 5.d related with 1.a.2.b), you would be able to see it visually in the graph.
I understand what you're getting at, but the indexing/numbering is what made never gel with zettle. I on the other hand have a metadata that points to what the note is part of
Hi @TonyRamella, I appreciate your thoughtful approach to Zettelkasten. Dropping in to point out that your description contains a dead link pointing to Flow Vault Pro (the URL slug has a typo; it's missing the 's' in 'zettelkasten.')
First there was a folder, then better tagging, then better MOC, then better ZK. Like the idea to use simbol for MOC and not write them in names. How did u get that horisontal devider line with icon, is it part of snipet or theme? BTW: just info if u are academic u can marge your ZK links in one file with easy bake plugin.
Ok, a few days later. I tried doing this and I love it. The "forcing you to think where each idea belongs" is a great exercise that is helping me a lot. The trails are starting to be a bit too long (is there a solution for that?) but seeing everything ordered that way is so clear! The real insights were "this is not outline" and "it's not a taxonomy". There are still a few hang outs to overcome and a few things to wrap my head around, but I am very hopeful. Thanks a lot!
Thank you for covering this topic. In the video, you talked about an intersection of two different sequences (Zettelkasten and Working Memory), and I didn't get a sense of how you handle that with the numbering. Do you create a new note talking about the intersection, and number it separately? Or, do you treat that connection as ephemeral, related to a single writing project, and don't have a note detailing your insights about the intersection?
I'm working with a similar idea, but not as locked in. My single notes are disconnected (they only link to older or newer versions of that note). But when I create the note, it starts as part of an index/outline. While I do have section numbers, they only manage general categories. The note names don't lock them to a single index. They could change locations in the index or could appear in other indexes. The number only categorizes the note's starting point: 316 Computer-Python-Structure. A file manager listing will sort it to that general location with other related notes. Only the indexes lock it to a given thought stream sequence.
Unless this could be automated somehow, sequencing notes in the way you show in this video wouldn’t work for me. This indexing system adds executive load to the Zettelkasten system. My ADHD and autistic brain produces thousands of thoughts an hour. I started using Obsidian to remove the executive load of managing the large quantity of notes that such an amount of thoughts produce. If anyone knows a way to make note sequencing automatic, I’d love to hear it.
I'm confused on how we would go about branching and continuing a line of though that involves another note. For example, how do give a continuation to a thought 1.1a, but the continuation itself is 3.2a out of insight, having the line 1.1a -> 3.2a1, if it ended there it is fine, but now from that I want to continue the thread with a new note this time, what would its number be? And another question, about changing the id, doesn't it 'break' every line of thought that we could previously trace by following the sequence?
i'm asking myself now why you change the id of a note. I think that you dont have to. Because you can always make a new Folgezettel and continue or correct your old thought. I would say its better to see the process no matter if is right or wrong. In fact if its wrong you can understand it now and in the futer better, when you also see the thoughts who became wrong or false. And if you need the Zettel in an other place you just ca link it. I'm curious tho her your thought about this.
Thats right. You shouldn't have to because as long as you are indexing the note and it has a unique ID, it won't matter what sequence it belongs to. My point about re-naming the unique ID is not that you should do it, just that if you accidentally make a duplicate ID or want to place it in a different sequence for some reason, you could do it much easier than with an analog zettelkasten. Although you shouldn't make a habit of this. Trust your instincts and keep your notes in the initial sequence you filed them in.
hi there, thank for this video now im getting it a bit more (the structure and so) if im right you mean with fogelzettel a zettel that follows another, i mean it comes direct behind another as a following thougt or so and then you would spell it like Folgezettel i speak german and didnt understand it until minute 11:00 or so, and i just want it to be correct🙃 thanks man and keep doing, i like your thougts, content and stuff👌
I don’t understand the need for numeric ids in this video? Doesn’t the use of bullets and indentation serve the same purpose (eg showing branches and continuation of conversation)?
@@cgrinaldi No, the bullets and indentations are just stylistic and not necessary. Normally an index won’t even display the IDs in sequential order, nor does it have to. It’s not an outline and purely navigational. The IDs themselves are how you file notes in a zettelkasten. You index the top level ID and it will lead you to all the related notes in sequential order of how those ideas were developed. Using an only wiki links robs you of the value in having your notes filled by their parent/child relationships to other notes in the sequences those ideas developed. This is a core feature of zettelkasten and not optional in the analog system.
Why not to use Obsidian link alternative title? Like [[Note title|1.1 Note title]]? This way the ids are only visible in indeces and are not assigned globally to the indexed notes. Not sure, maybe I don't get it
Because the point is to file the notes themselves in sequential order. Think of the rigid structure of a physical slipbox, you have to slot each card in sequential order. This means the files themselves are located with their relatives. It brings context to Ahren’s concept of a “permanent note” being the notes’ position in the slip box. You could always use aliases to link your notes globally without the showing the unique ID in the file name. But the more you see a notes’ ID the better you remember where to find it by memory. Think outside of Obsidian, if you were to take your digital notes to another software or just use plaintext, entire thought sequences are filed in logical order forever. That is truly future proofing your knowledge!
@@TonyRamella I'd add that this method of sorting on file system level works nicely when spaces or dashes are used as separators, not so much with underscores (due to order of chacters in ASCII table)
That will happen, and often more than just 2 sequences. The answer is it doesn’t matter. You file it where it seems most related and use the index to locate it. Look at Luhmann’s index notes he had IDs and sequences that were all over the place. Indexes bring order to the structured chaos.
You can see me deal with this at 12:32 where I filed a note about zettelkasten in relation to notes about forcing functions instead of filing it with my zettelkasten notes.
@@TonyRamella Let me see if I understand. You file the note where "it seems to fit" and deal with any other possible connection on the note itself, linking it to other notes. Correct?
@@chaosordeal294 you’re missing the point. It’s not that search is inefficient. It’s that it’s robbing you of the serendipity and maintenance rehearsal of recalling the sequences of ideas you develop which improves memory. This is a core feature of a true zettelkasten that gets lost in a digital system.
Would like to have learned more, but way to “nerd” if I may…Only those with the background of the references you make will get the most out of this video… maybe that’s your goal..?
Every TH-cam video shows a different approach. As I am new to both Obsidian and Zettelkasten, I’m looking for a method of note taking which I won’t have to change after a couple of months because I can’t find things and, above all, is simple to use. Not one of the videos I have seen so far does this. Your video I’m afraid just muddies the waters for me. If I’m spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about how I’m numbering and structuring the notes then it’s a waste of time. Sorry !
@@peterbond12 That's because this video is not about Obsidian, it's about Zettelkasten. It was implemented in Obsidian. I do the same as Tony Ramella, except that I use pen and paper. Since you are in the beginning, I recommend that you just take notes, give them a title and when taking a note, think about related notes that you may have and reference them by using a "see also" followed by the link to other notes. Later, after you get used to taking notes, you adapt your method to suit your needs. Don't bother with finding the perfect system.
@@peterbond12 As @douglaskayama suggested, start with notes and link them as you see fit. And I would also suggest installing an extension called "Smart Connections". It will embed your notes, and the side panel will automatically display notes similar to your current note (it also has some other AI features).
@@peterbond12 might I suggest you stop watching videos in search of the perfect workflow. This is something you develop on your own by just writing notes. Once you establish some foundational principles you won’t even have to waste time watching videos in search of new methods. Have a goal for using Obsidian in the first place and start building your workflow with the goal in mind.
![Am I overcomplicating zettelkasten? [Reddit reaction]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uwzOo2UfuQQ/mqdefault.jpg)
This really proved to me the importance of pictorial indexes thank you
I discovered your channel a few days ago and it has been really valuable for me. I have been trying to restructure my vault based on the information you are providing. The logic behind tagging/linking wasn't clicking in my head, this makes more sense. All your videos so far are really resonating with me and my ADHD brain! Thank you.
@@evelien1343 this brings me much joy. Thank you for sharing, I’m thrilled I’ve been able to help in any way.
This video is very precious. I've already developed this mindset on my own (the main difference is that I don't use folgezettel), your explanation wil be useful for many others
In the transcript and the abstract the zettel is misspeled foge- or foglezettel. It should be folgezettel.: ich folge dich/dir = i follow you.
Search versus note-sequencing. You can get lost in the development of thinking paths and the next step will be using the search-tool. In the meantime your memory improves during this journey. Liberian Pascal Martinolli teaches his students to keep a log in order to manage the mismatches in their searching-process!
Liberians use classification-systems, like the Dewey Decimal Classification, in order to overlook millions of books. The Zettelkasten is faceted classification.of objects. You can not use it as an alfabetical system, that explains why you need concept notes or atomic notes to make it possible to establish a folgezettel. The search in your Zettelkasten can be elaborated and improved by using the LATCH-system (only) in your tag-system. You can search in a matrix manner, which enhances your chances of serendipity and emergence.
Good video. Your methodology of the Zettelkasten seems to be a grounded theory (timestamp 12:58)!
Well thought-out. Thanks for sharing. For me, Luhmann’s numbering scheme was a record of his original line of thinking about a topic, as well as a method to uniquely identify notes for cross-reference purposes. You have extended that idea in very interesting ways.
Yea you nailed it. Thank you. I hope I was able to communicate this concept effectively, I understand it can be confusing at first. It took me a while to wrap my head around it myself and it didnt really click until I forced myself to do it with an analog zk
I liked the idea proposed here. The way you explain makes sense and that's definitely something that was lost with the digital transition
Also the whole context you show here made me think about the possibility of adding a property to the note with the parent note (and maybe the last note in sequence) this combined with the numbering would allow you to follow your line of thought. And if another idea relates with a previous one (like 5.d related with 1.a.2.b), you would be able to see it visually in the graph.
Intriguing idea to add a level of what note came first second, etc. regarding a specific topic.
I understand what you're getting at, but the indexing/numbering is what made never gel with zettle.
I on the other hand have a metadata that points to what the note is part of
Hi @TonyRamella, I appreciate your thoughtful approach to Zettelkasten. Dropping in to point out that your description contains a dead link pointing to Flow Vault Pro (the URL slug has a typo; it's missing the 's' in 'zettelkasten.')
Thanks for the heads up! It’s fixed now. Sorry about that!
@@TonyRamella Glad to be of service. 😸 It might be the first time ever. If TH-cam gave out badges, I'd rank the "first-time helper" badge.🏅
Cheers.
First there was a folder, then better tagging, then better MOC, then better ZK. Like the idea to use simbol for MOC and not write them in names. How did u get that horisontal devider line with icon, is it part of snipet or theme?
BTW: just info if u are academic u can marge your ZK links in one file with easy bake plugin.
Ok, a few days later. I tried doing this and I love it. The "forcing you to think where each idea belongs" is a great exercise that is helping me a lot. The trails are starting to be a bit too long (is there a solution for that?) but seeing everything ordered that way is so clear! The real insights were "this is not outline" and "it's not a taxonomy". There are still a few hang outs to overcome and a few things to wrap my head around, but I am very hopeful. Thanks a lot!
I love to hear that it’s been working well for you! You’ll get the hang of it quickly. Keep at it!
@@TonyRamella Now I need a video explaining how to use all that to outline an essay. That would be great!
Thank you for covering this topic. In the video, you talked about an intersection of two different sequences (Zettelkasten and Working Memory), and I didn't get a sense of how you handle that with the numbering. Do you create a new note talking about the intersection, and number it separately? Or, do you treat that connection as ephemeral, related to a single writing project, and don't have a note detailing your insights about the intersection?
I'm working with a similar idea, but not as locked in. My single notes are disconnected (they only link to older or newer versions of that note). But when I create the note, it starts as part of an index/outline. While I do have section numbers, they only manage general categories. The note names don't lock them to a single index. They could change locations in the index or could appear in other indexes. The number only categorizes the note's starting point: 316 Computer-Python-Structure. A file manager listing will sort it to that general location with other related notes. Only the indexes lock it to a given thought stream sequence.
Unless this could be automated somehow, sequencing notes in the way you show in this video wouldn’t work for me. This indexing system adds executive load to the Zettelkasten system. My ADHD and autistic brain produces thousands of thoughts an hour. I started using Obsidian to remove the executive load of managing the large quantity of notes that such an amount of thoughts produce. If anyone knows a way to make note sequencing automatic, I’d love to hear it.
In which case should I use an ID like 1.1b.1 (with a second point)? I've noticed Luhmann did this, but can't understand why.
Interesting! Do you use MoCs in addition to indexes, or do your indexes already encompass that?
I'm confused on how we would go about branching and continuing a line of though that involves another note. For example, how do give a continuation to a thought 1.1a, but the continuation itself is 3.2a out of insight, having the line 1.1a -> 3.2a1, if it ended there it is fine, but now from that I want to continue the thread with a new note this time, what would its number be? And another question, about changing the id, doesn't it 'break' every line of thought that we could previously trace by following the sequence?
i'm asking myself now why you change the id of a note. I think that you dont have to. Because you can always make a new Folgezettel and continue or correct your old thought. I would say its better to see the process no matter if is right or wrong. In fact if its wrong you can understand it now and in the futer better, when you also see the thoughts who became wrong or false.
And if you need the Zettel in an other place you just ca link it.
I'm curious tho her your thought about this.
Thats right. You shouldn't have to because as long as you are indexing the note and it has a unique ID, it won't matter what sequence it belongs to. My point about re-naming the unique ID is not that you should do it, just that if you accidentally make a duplicate ID or want to place it in a different sequence for some reason, you could do it much easier than with an analog zettelkasten. Although you shouldn't make a habit of this. Trust your instincts and keep your notes in the initial sequence you filed them in.
Hi, what is the theme you are using?
hi there, thank for this video
now im getting it a bit more (the structure and so)
if im right you mean with fogelzettel a zettel that follows another, i mean it comes direct behind another as a following thougt or so
and then you would spell it like Folgezettel
i speak german and didnt understand it until minute 11:00 or so, and i just want it to be correct🙃
thanks man and keep doing, i like your thougts, content and stuff👌
Yes that is correct! Thank you for the kind words. I apologize for my poor German pronunciation haha
I don’t understand the need for numeric ids in this video? Doesn’t the use of bullets and indentation serve the same purpose (eg showing branches and continuation of conversation)?
@@cgrinaldi No, the bullets and indentations are just stylistic and not necessary. Normally an index won’t even display the IDs in sequential order, nor does it have to. It’s not an outline and purely navigational.
The IDs themselves are how you file notes in a zettelkasten. You index the top level ID and it will lead you to all the related notes in sequential order of how those ideas were developed.
Using an only wiki links robs you of the value in having your notes filled by their parent/child relationships to other notes in the sequences those ideas developed. This is a core feature of zettelkasten and not optional in the analog system.
@@TonyRamella I don't get it as well :) It seems that IDs are only helpful to see the structure in the filesystem.
So basically nest notes inside notes as you explore a topic? 😅
Something similar to how Logseq does it, “bullet journaling.”
Why not to use Obsidian link alternative title? Like [[Note title|1.1 Note title]]? This way the ids are only visible in indeces and are not assigned globally to the indexed notes. Not sure, maybe I don't get it
Because the point is to file the notes themselves in sequential order. Think of the rigid structure of a physical slipbox, you have to slot each card in sequential order. This means the files themselves are located with their relatives. It brings context to Ahren’s concept of a “permanent note” being the notes’ position in the slip box.
You could always use aliases to link your notes globally without the showing the unique ID in the file name. But the more you see a notes’ ID the better you remember where to find it by memory.
Think outside of Obsidian, if you were to take your digital notes to another software or just use plaintext, entire thought sequences are filed in logical order forever. That is truly future proofing your knowledge!
@@TonyRamella I was asking myself the same question - now that was a revelation!
@@TonyRamella I'd add that this method of sorting on file system level works nicely when spaces or dashes are used as separators, not so much with underscores (due to order of chacters in ASCII table)
Maybe I don't get it but, what happens if a note belongs to two different sequences?
That will happen, and often more than just 2 sequences. The answer is it doesn’t matter. You file it where it seems most related and use the index to locate it. Look at Luhmann’s index notes he had IDs and sequences that were all over the place. Indexes bring order to the structured chaos.
You can see me deal with this at 12:32 where I filed a note about zettelkasten in relation to notes about forcing functions instead of filing it with my zettelkasten notes.
@@TonyRamella Let me see if I understand. You file the note where "it seems to fit" and deal with any other possible connection on the note itself, linking it to other notes. Correct?
@@pjorge Essentially, yes. It can be indexed with related notes and sequences regardless of its unique ID.
@@TonyRamella Thanks! That was very helpful
Kill organization maintenance with Search
Zero time, zero maintenance, never stale, never misleading, never inaccurate -- Search
@@chaosordeal294 you’re missing the point. It’s not that search is inefficient. It’s that it’s robbing you of the serendipity and maintenance rehearsal of recalling the sequences of ideas you develop which improves memory. This is a core feature of a true zettelkasten that gets lost in a digital system.
The graph view is virtually useless once your vault is big
search isnt working for me, ive tried a million thigns
Would like to have learned more, but way to “nerd” if I may…Only those with the background of the references you make will get the most out of this video… maybe that’s your goal..?
Another confusing Obsidian video.
Can you explain what is confusing so I can improve?
Every TH-cam video shows a different approach. As I am new to both Obsidian and Zettelkasten, I’m looking for a method of note taking which I won’t have to change after a couple of months because I can’t find things and, above all, is simple to use. Not one of the videos I have seen so far does this. Your video I’m afraid just muddies the waters for me. If I’m spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about how I’m numbering and structuring the notes then it’s a waste of time. Sorry !
@@peterbond12 That's because this video is not about Obsidian, it's about Zettelkasten. It was implemented in Obsidian. I do the same as Tony Ramella, except that I use pen and paper. Since you are in the beginning, I recommend that you just take notes, give them a title and when taking a note, think about related notes that you may have and reference them by using a "see also" followed by the link to other notes. Later, after you get used to taking notes, you adapt your method to suit your needs. Don't bother with finding the perfect system.
@@peterbond12 As @douglaskayama suggested, start with notes and link them as you see fit. And I would also suggest installing an extension called "Smart Connections". It will embed your notes, and the side panel will automatically display notes similar to your current note (it also has some other AI features).
@@peterbond12 might I suggest you stop watching videos in search of the perfect workflow. This is something you develop on your own by just writing notes. Once you establish some foundational principles you won’t even have to waste time watching videos in search of new methods. Have a goal for using Obsidian in the first place and start building your workflow with the goal in mind.