Unlocking the Namco N163! The Flaws and How It's Fixed.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2022
- In this video, we discuss the flaws of the Namco N163, how they affect its sound, and ways on how to fix those flaws and improve the sound.
LINKS:
TQ-Jam - Plum Rain
url.kylxbn.com/NacHhr
The Namco N163 chip uses channel multiplexing to output up to 8 channels. Since it does not have a mixer, it gives each channel a round-robin like turn to compute and output its data. This produces an extremely annoying high-pitched noise that is painful to the ear. Implementing a mixer so that all channel data is output together fixes this issue, but the fact that the computation of each channel data still takes place in turns produces aliasing in its audio. This video aims to fix both problems, and see the result after the fix. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![nice_weather.ftm [2A03 + VRC6]](/img/n.gif)
1:21 「時分割多重化」 corresponds to "Serial multiplex mixing" in the English version of NSFPlay. It actually isn't set by default, at least not in NSFPlay 2.4.
Sorry, I had it mixed up a bit!
Yes, it actually isn't enabled by default. Enabling it would make the mixing accurate to the N163 chip, but as stated in the video, enabling it makes the sound quite painful to the ears. Still, for accuracy... one might choose to actually enable it :D
@@KYLXBN Adding to the confusion, the option isn't named very well in English. 「時分割多重化」 more accurately translates to "time-division multiplexing", which is the proper term for what is happening. The word "mixing" probably shouldn't be in there because, as demonstrated in the video, that isn't what is happening.
I pressed the translate button on this comment, and it gave me "Time division multiplexing"
I remember when Famitracker was still in active development, there was a debate among users about N163 implementation and whether accuracy or listenability was more important. There was also an argument about whether the multiplexing noise could be accurately emulated, due to aliasing in modern digital audio
I feel like they should add this guy's fixes in as an option. I like the sound much better "corrected" like this. It still feels videogamey, but released from the limitations of the time.
@@Noisy_Cricket so completely defeating the point of famitracker! :)
@@MauveDashthat was a bit of a leap
@@i_am_kenokeno the point of famitracker is to make NES music, even having a format specifically for the NES. (Including the expansion chips)
It's not a leap, "fixing" those mistakes would make famitracker somewhat pointless
@@MauveDash No it would not lol, you'd still be extremely limited in what you can do compared to something like FL studio, you're still doing chiptune and you still have a limited amount of channels you can experiment with.
All these changes would do is make the audio quality bearable, while still you know- Bending to the will of the N163 expansion chip
DN-Famitracker and Famistudio are examples of this, they both do linear mixing for the chip, the channels don't constantly update though so only one of the fixes is implemented, but it still sounds like the Namco Chip and certainly doesn't make these programs any more useless. You can even toggle the linear mixing on and off.
I don't understand how these features would make Famitracker useless or pointless, especially if you're still limited in what you can do and you can just... toggle the features off lol - its literally a quality of life feature to make the audio quality a little better, nothing more, nothing less
And most importantly... you're still composing NES music
for people wondering the name of each tune here:
0:00 digital devil story megami tensei ii - daedalus;
0:24 digital devil story megami tensei ii - labyrinth;
1:47 tq-jam - plum rain;
3:15 digital devil story megami tensei ii - explorer;
3:58 digital devil story megami tensei ii - dash under the ground.
The VRC7 also does multiplexing, but the mixing rate is high enough for the noise to be minimal. I'm not sure if it applies to other FM chips, though.
Damn, I was thinking of adding that to the video as a side note but forgot XD Thanks for adding it! Hopefully people find your comment.
The OPLL in general does multiplexing and you're right, it's too fast so it isn't audible. However, the other OPL chips actually has a mixer included so it doesn't do multiplexing :)
According to Wikipedia at least the YM2612 (OPN2) uses multiplexing in its built-in DAC.
@@UnseenMenace Oh, thanks for the correction-I recall reading somewhere that the channels are added in floating point before being sent to the DAC but maybe it was the OPL3... Or maybe it was a wrong memory...
The Sega Genesis has a multiplexed data/instruction bus.
Nah dude the quantization noise gotta come
A fix that might've worked better for them at the time would have been to just run it faster, at maybe 1MHz, out of audio range, and pop a simple lowpass filter on the end - that was the original idea they were going to go with for the MOS6581 (SID). But I suppose they couldn't have much headroom in either clocking or gates back then, and they've got deadlines. Namco chose to try the technique anyway, despite its harsh noise, and the SID of course kept the 'mixer' and took one voice and literally copy-pasted it 3 times in the room they had.
I wonder what a SID would have sounded like with something like its original design?
Minimum mixing rate should be [2 x Sum of (Max rate for each channels)]
The idea was that the RF demodulator in most TVs would act as a low-pass filter and get rid of the horrible noise for the most part.
@@rashidisw The technical reason behind that is because of the Nyquist Frequency: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency
TL;DR: In order to prevent aliasing you need to sample at twice the maximum frequency of the source signal (or viewed from the other direction the maximum frequency you can accurately sample is half your sample rate).
So you basically turned the N163 into the Namco arcade WSG chip, used in some of its most iconic early titles. (well aside from the specific way it handles volume levels, which seems interesting)
That left me think: some compositors use the flaws of their chips to produce nifty effects. Your videos inspire to make an FPGA rendition to those soundchips!
Make a single soundchip that combines every NES/Famicom soundchip into one, (plus the FDS sound chip and the GameBoy’s sound chip). Then I can stick use that sound chip in a fan-made “Vectrex 2”.
Vectrex 2? I'm in, specially if it shows RGB colors.
You’ve turned the Famicom into a pc engine! This actually rocks!
What is pc engine
@@HeroOfTheTree PC Engine or TurboGrafx-16 in the west, is a console made by NEC in collaboration with Hudson Soft (known for creating the Bomberman series) and released as part of the 16-bit generation of gaming. The console was successful in Japan as PC Engine but failed in the western market as TurboGrafx-16.
@@JemZard what can it do?
@@HeroOfTheTree run games
@@groovingood not what I mean
I wonder how actual games that used the chip would sound with these corrections, like Megami Tensei II.
I believe the best playlist on yt rn of the game has these correction plus some effects
Megami Tensei 2 wasn't plagued by these effects too much because it only enables 4 channels. So the multiplexing noise is too high to be heard and the aliasing isn't as bad as it could be.
Like pc engine games
Don't forget about Mappy Kids as well
Man, a synth engine that replicated all of these fixes and their varies stages (ie being able to blend the original and fixed sounds) would be chiptunes' final form
I think you're now my hero. There was an old Touhou-style original song made using 8 or 6-N163 that obviously suffered from horrible noise. It's unfortunately probably unlisted if not deleted from TH-cam now...I'd have so loved to hear it fixed..!
At any rate, thanks again for your wonderful work ! ❤️
Hey!, I literally just watched your Perfect NES Sound chip vid yesterday and I did not expect a follow up to it today!
Keep up the awesome work!
yea these vids are awesome
I don't know how you do it, but I like hearing original audio vs how it sounds when it's "fixed", and how you point out all the flaws and how to hear them. Keep up the great work!
I'm very curious about the implementation side of all these "fixes", how exactly did you accomplish all of this cool stuff? Did you edit the code of NES emulators, or perhaps of a standalone tracker like NSFPlay? I'd love to get access to this, so that I can play arbitrary music on these altered sound signatures to hear how some of my favorite tracks behave!
he modified nsfplay, which by the way, ain't a tracker. he also posted a link to his github repository, but later on deleted for some reason.
im loving the new form of content you're making! super cool to learn about this stuff, i always wondered why the n163 sounded different to other wavetable chips, but trying to read up about it was very confusing, so this is super well explained! :)
Been a huge TQ-Jam fan for years and just recently found your channel, it's super refreshing to see some recognition there, and I love the work you're doing too. Keep it up!
i find these videos so fascinating. i know very little about the technical side of synth sound chips. but i love learning. thanks for upload as always
Very interesting, lots of this went over my head but hearing the differences side by side was super cool. Plum Rain is sick, i'm really into the tune. Thanks for showing us TQ-Jam, will definitely check more of their music out!
Nice work. I watched a few of your older videos, I enjoy the format of text and audio that you have chosen. You earned my subscription :)
Super niche topic but i'm glad i watched it. I find more primitive synthesis kinda interesting, especially hearing about the odd compromises and things that have to be made while new technologies are being developed, and the interesting ways those limitations can be used.
Ive discovered this channel by ytb's recommendations and i'm glad it recommended the video about the nes chip, and now i'm even more glad to be here
Ahhhh, the N163 is one of my favorites! The sounds are so unique and atmospheric. What an interesting comparison, and I really like how you demonstrate how these chips work to an extent as well. Another like well earned!
Now that I've found your channel, I gotta go watch and like all your videos 😁😁😁. I love the background music so much!
Linear interpolation actually sounds pretty good! Adds some polish to the roughness.
I am really impressed by you. I find this so interesting but also very complex. love your videos . thankyou
Well the N163 chip did rely on the lowpass filter inside tv’s trough rf input to eliminate noise and aliasing (asuming you play on a original famicom and not the av famicom)
So instead of putting a lowpass filter inside that chip, namco did asume that tv’s with rf input will contain a lowpass filter and rely on that instead just to save a few pennies,
Likely modern tv’s do contain a lowpass and highpass filter to let you decide how much noise to eliminate whether trough rf or av out from you console😁👍🙏
Fantastic work yet again :)
Wow, that sounds unquestionably better, very cool.
So happy to find a fellow Fearofdark fan! That guy's a genius!
Improving the sound chip for Megami Tensei, oh boy do you have my interest.
Great channel and hope to see more great videos!
Your channel is gonna turn big quickly
I love love love these kinds of videos thank you
I love these videos
This is all very interesting. I'm wondering if you have any plans for any kind of "fixing" for Gameboy audio like smoothing out the wavetable channel or attempting to fix linear interpolation on frequencies like you've shown here. Would be pretty cool to see
Keep doing what you love.
Just saw this, good upload! Regarding the N163, I just read from VGMPF that Tsukasa Masuko apparently used all the eight channels, which is not surprising given that he's a pretty good composer. Though, I always wondered about the music and sound chips in mobile cellphones, which is a niche that always intruiged me.
Good job!
I suggest uploading X's Tunnel Scene VinylCheese cover with this chip to check if it sounds better with this fixes. That is my favorite cover of that tune
It would be really cool to be able to have these fixes as toggles in NSFPlay. Really cool stuff.
Sounds awesome 👍
Changing the 2A03 triangle to me didn't seem like a fix at all, just robbing it of all its character. This on the other hand I think is a welcome change, especially the mixing part. Back when the original Famitracker introduced compatibility for this chip there were very heated debates on how it should be optional to have the multiplexing noise and not enforced because most likely the original 8-channel N163 soundtracks weren't composed while being subjected to that noise the entire time.
こういう「ハイファイチップチューン」がいつか1ジャンル、あるいはサブジャンルとして確立しますように…
These videos remind me of of explod2A03 videos on NES music hardware from back in the day. So keep it up.
Neat work!
My favorite expansion audio chip 😍 i love the music in megami tensei II so much
so beautiful
What is the first song that plays? Really neat channel by the way, I love hearing the comparisons and the display of the wave forms is very cool.
amazing!!!
Any chance we could get videos on the GBA and SNES sound synthesizer chips? Love the videos, keep up the great work!
Didn't expect to hear Daedalus when I clicked on this video but I was not disappointed.
new era of chiptune starts here
Incroyable.
you know its gonna be a banger if it starts with megami tensei ost
New sub, really enjoying the fixed chips videos! Have you done the PC Engine yet? HuC6280, I think. It's a neat chip, despite its flaws.
Another great video! Can you do a modded version of Jump Up or Hallucinations from Megami Tensei II?
idk why but 5:58 made me feel things that in my 10 years as almost a musician I have never felt before
One thing I've been wondering. I absolutely love these sound chips' sounds, and may eventually use them in my own songs in the future... but, I have no way of doing so since I don't use a tracker program. So, is there some kinda plugin or vst that allows me to use emulation chips in my own songs? and if so, what kind of files are they stored in? Do people alter or make custom chips?? I must know this stuff.
Tracker is not really hard to use
AFAIK Famitracker is the only way to make authentic music for this expansion chip, but the program is really not all that hard to learn. Once you're used to it you can input music much more quickly and fluently than a typical DAW interface allows (unless you're recording from a MIDI controller, which Famitracker also allows). Importing samples to N163 is a massive pain though lol.
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot Famistudio was a thing.
Famistudio, it's basically famitracker but it's a piano roll
fantastic choice of example song. Have you shown this to him?
With your perfect chips, you could fix Famitracker!
BTW, have you tested them on multichips?
This is great! But can you do a video on the sid chip from the c64?
Interesting sound. A bit of the SID-sounds as well as others that I haven't heard on that chip-
Sid is more droning and the synth is continuous psg evolves with the song
I have seen two “how to” videos from you, but still I have not found anything in your videos that show/tell *how* you have done it. Only how it could be done if you could change the chip. :)
So, How *do* you add separate channel output and a mixer in this chip?
Kinda wonder if putting a comb/delay filter to specifically target the switching frequency could get rid of the high pitch noise while still making it sound interesting. For example if it switchs at 2khz , mix it with a delay of 0.25ms (which is 120 samples on 48kHz sample rate or about 8.5 cm of speaker distance).
SOUNDS AMAZING, I HOPE YOU CAN DO THE SAME WITH SEGA GENESIS/MEGADRIVE, LIKE, A DEFINITIVE VERSION OF THE YM2612 CHIP WITH THE PSG CHIP.
Someone timestamp linked the song at the end to me. Very nice song. Didn't know chiptune could sound this relaxing.
very cool stuff !! are these mods or their source code available anywhere?
Unlike the N163 chip which uses multiplexing, its rival Konami SCC (MSX) uses direct mixing, where the channels update and output at the same time, so that's why the SCC chip sounded better than the N163. The HuC6280 works like that too.
That is interesting to know, I did not know that!
@@KYLXBN So that's why the SCC is my comfort soundchip! I listen to Konami SCC songs everyday lol
Didn't the Msx have midi and Fm Synth/wave capabilities?
@@KogetsuKuzunoha It does!
I actually like the linear filtering, but it's understandable to leave it out if you want a proper retro sound :)
Where can I listen just to the final Tune? Its a wonderful music
Did you code the visualizer you're using yourself? If so, which libraries (if any) and languages did you use?
Also, have you thought about making audio plugins for video game console emulators? I don't know whether it would end up being more general code with just a tiny bit of sound chip expertise sprinkled in, but I know you could do it.
簡単な英語しか読めないから 主に映像と音楽を聞くだけだけど…
スゲー 視聴者さん めっちゃ増えてるじゃん
(≧∇≦)b✨
Could you please add a full list of songs to this and the previous chip video? TH-cam tried to figure out some of them, but it's not correct. Would love to know what all of them are!
Hope to hear more songs done with the modified chips.maybe an actual game utilizing them
Sounds great! Can I download these modded chips for use in an emulator or NSF player?
I kind of wish electronics peaked around here: slightly better than the NES. :-P I guess that won't be a popular desire.
I've been learning about midi in my IT class
the fix really makes a massive difference for this chip :o
what music did you use through the video? I personally don't know any N163 games outside of Pac-Man Championship Edition >_>
speaking of, I'm curious to see what that game sounds like with the fix, is there any chance you could upload the Normal Mode theme from that? thanks a lot in advance, and I look forward to your next videos!
He used music from Megami Tensei 2.
This game has a really amazing soundtrack that still sounds great to this very day. You should check it out.
Is there a FLAC file of the fixed Plum Rain song you demoed in the video? I absolutely love how it sounds and I'd appreciate if there such a download available. Thanks!
FUJITSU :O Sorry, can't help it.
Not NES-related, but the 315-5218 "SegaPCM" works in a similar way internally except it accumulates all channels outputs.
Can imagine Namco going for this solution to keep the cost down, and also maybe because there isn't a high enough clock frequency available from the cart edge.
How was the visualization made? The font and triggering look like corrscope (incidentally I recently released 0.8.0 which should mis-trigger and drift less), but the top-left box looks misaligned (from a video editor program?), the volume and pitch displays look new.
Hi, nyanpasu!
It is indeed corrsope. Thanks for making it!
The top-left box is from video editing 😅 Hard to work on low-resolution monitors...
I added the volume and pitch meters myself, in an extremely hack-ish way... github.com/kylxbn/corrscope
The sound which makes your NES sound like a pc Engine that psg just makes those drums sound amazing
Where is the cover of Labyrinth from Shin Megami Tensei uploaded? The one used throughout the video? I really like it
Didn't know I want to know that... :D that was interesting. Maybe SID versions comparison and fixing their problems if they have any? :) that must be interesting :) greetings from Poland :)
as far as i know, the newer mos 8580 sid chip plays samples worse than the original mos 6581, on the other hand though, the 3 psg channels from the 8580 are a bit cleaner than the ones in the 6581.
Ah yes, the Megami Tensei 2 OST, what a masterpiece that was
I actually like the interpolated version
i know the NES also tended to make alot of high pitch noises in some konami music, the thing is though the speakers in alot of TV's and arcade cabnets used throughout the 80s just didn't/couldn't output those frequencies. i bet most of the composers just never realized.
they did realize that, and took advantage of the overtones a bit. the jaggedness of the nes triangle wave actually even helped it sound a bit louder than a smooth triangle wave, due to the overtone.
Ooh. What was that song at the end?
wavetable synthesis is like you simply draw a shape for the waveform, similar to a waveshaper, right?
Yes! You draw the shape, and the chip plays that shape on repeat.
I wanna know if the Sega chip sets are any good. I would appreciate that knowledge and would interest me how I can learn this myself
You can learn about the inner workings of sound chips from various websites, Wikipedia being one of them! For example, the Sega Genesis has a YM2612 sound chip--you can find resources about it in many places :D
Do you use programmable chips or just use emulation for all of that?
And now I understand why 8 Bit remixes in Rayman Legends sounded like, well, 8 Bit music. But they also had something else, I knew that the sound was cleaner, but I didn't know exactly why.
Hmmm, nice
What is the piece at 0:24.
Why do you remove linear interpolation with a n163 mod? i wanna know.
What is the song at the start ?
How did you actually implement the fix?
Did you make a new chip (CPLD, ASIC, FPGA or similar)
Did you alter the code in an emulator?
(I genuinely don't know, but am interested)
Prepare for "Namco C163" corrections.
MY GOD, This is it. Anyway to modify this chip on a new board for play? USB to PC?
That song at 3:20 onwards isnt "helpless romantic" as you stated... It was "explorer".
I hope chiptune music becomes popular again :(
by the way, where was this chip used?
Technically wavetable, yes, but since the waves are looped 32-sample waveforms, it's probably not fair to make comparisons between that and the essentially unlimited sample playback of the Amiga. You won't be getting anything somebody would recognize as a "digital sample" from the N163.