Dinosaurs at Crystal Palace: Welcome to Victorian Park
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It’s these odd explorations that are so delightful, and set Jago apart as not just a train nerd but a social historian.
All this is just down the road from me. Crystal Palace Park has been a part of my life for so many years. My nan used to tell me about how she saw the sky glowing when the palace burnt down from her back garden in Peckham. My mum and dad used to go there when they were courting and, after they got married, they took me there when I was little. There I would climb and sit on the Guy the Gorilla statue, visit the zoo and, of course, stare at the dinosaurs around the lake. Then, about 30 years later, I did the same with my daughter, though the Zoo was no longer there. Funny how life moves in cycles like this.
Oh, and you can tell Richard Owen is a wrong 'un just be looking at his photo. Shifty looking bugger.
Fun fact: The ducks and other birds at the park are technically also Crystal Palace Dinosaurs, just more accurate ones.
I absolutely loved this, My dad was an eminent palaeontologist and an Hon assoc curator of Oxford Uni museum of natural history. (and an expert on Mantell Darwin and Lyell.) We used to go here a lot when we were just tiny. Richard Owen is a pantomime baddie to me He is the Yerkes of paleontology and hogged all the credit
Richard Owen can’t have been a bad guy coz he didn’t have a moustache whereas Yerkes did.
@@KevinTheCaravanner He wore his on the inside... extra sneaky
The parallel to Yerkes seems good. But like Yerkes, Owen also got things done and was good at popularisation (or marketing). He was instrumental in the founding of the Natural History Museum, an interesting parallel to the Yerkes Observatory.
My best friends grandfather, a Victor Martin after WW2 would go and work on these for free if he had building supplies left over from his job as they were damaged during the war and no money to keep them repaired. Vic was one of them larger than life characters, great man to know and he didn't have a bad bone in his body and even when he went blind he still wiled his hours away making silk poppies out of silk and copper wire to be sold for charity. He hailed from Crystal Palace and was quite a well known chap back in the day.
Thank you Mr Hazzard, there is a special place in my heart for Crystal Palace. I spent most of 1970 living with my Grandmother in a place I think was called Annerly, and spent many weekends and holidays playing in the park with my Cousins, definately the happiest days of my life.
Anerley. It's just down the road from Crystal Palace park.
In _A Short History of Nearly Everything,_ Bill Bryson noted a grisly postscript to the Mantell-Owen rivalry: after Mantell's death from a probably-intentional laudanum overdose, after years of chronic pain from injuries suffered in a carriage accident, his misshapen spinal column was placed in the museum of the Royal College of Surgeons... which was directed by Richard Owen at the time. As Bryson wrote of Owen, "He was the only person Charles Darwin was ever known to hate."
To be fair, the little animatronic duck sculptures look very realistic.😁
My dad (a mosaic and tile expert!) worked on the restoration of the Crystal Palace dinosaurs in about the year 2000. He got me an illustrated book about the life of Waterhouse Hawkins which became my favourite book. He also brought back a few lumps of fossilised wood which decorate the dinosaur enclosure.
Another splendid departure. More please.
I remember seeing these sculptures from the "Making of Walking with Dinosaurs" back from the late 90s. So when I visited with my brother 20 years later, we went there on purpose and knew what to look for. Thanks for the reminder and the fascinating backstory! 🙂
In his avatar Jago looks like Richard Attenborough in Jurassic Park.
In the 1960s Crystal Palace Park was a favourite destination for days out with my parents. On one junior school trip we went to the park and on to the Natural History Museum to study dinosaurs. Back then the amount that was known about the creatures was miniscule compared to today.
My specialist subject! There are two iguanodons at Crystal Palace. One based on Owen's suggested anatomy and posture and the other according to Mantell's. Guess which iguanodon cast they had the dinner in? That dinner was held on New Year's Eve 1853. Must have been a bit parky. They got to and from it by travelling on the newly constructed but not yet opened WELCPR - the park and everything in it were the brainchild of Leo Schuster, railwayman, who was also present in the dinosaur cast alongside the newspapermen and geologists. Amazing PR..
Mantell by that point was dead, buried in West Norwood cemetery, just over a mile away, over Gypsy Hill. Mantelll had scoliosis and died of a self-administered opium overdose because the pain was too great. Owen kept Mantell's twisted spine, removed at his post-mortem, preserved in formaldehyde at the Hunterian museum. He toasted Mantell at the dinner, while seated at the head of his own iguanodon model.
When you do the Crystal Palace video are you going to cover the atmospheric railway and the buried ghost train urban legend?
A trip to West Norwood cemetery is always worth it. So many interesting people interred there.
I had heard about the dinner party held inside it, must have been an interesting evening!
Thanks for the further info
Thanks again Jago for memories. After graduating from in 1972 I returned to London to work. I rented a bed-sit close to the Park and regularly walked around looking at the dinosaurs and at that time there was also a flock of flamingos. During my stay there were plans to close/remove the Dinosaurs and I joined in a group protesting to save them which lead to their proper recognition and now restoration. I often recommend a trip to see them to visitors to London as a get away from the tourist spots in W1 and EC1.
As a child I had this vague memory of seeing dinosaurs in a park. I sort of remembered what they looked like, but wasn't sure if I'd dreamt the experience. Some time later I discovered they did exist and it wasn't a dream after all. They are great.
I always wanted a movie or mini series based on all this, the discovery of dinosaurs, just imagining what it would be like to not only discover long lost creatures, but to then try and convince everyone that they're real and going against the church at a time were most people sided with the church and completely believed them, probably best as a mini series so we could jump from one age to another making new discoveries and correcting old ideas.
I expect you have already covered the now lost underground railway from Crystal Palace that worked on atmospheric pressure or something. It didn't last long because rats kept chewing through the leather vacuum seals. At least that is what I was told.
Thought I would mention it in case you hadn't heard of it.
What a fab departure from the usual theme. Loved it!
I remember Max Miller from ‘Tasting History’ who had a whole episode on the Dinosaur Craze in Victorian England and the banquet ( 7:01 ) held in the replica of a dinosaur.
Yes, and not very long ago, either.
I saw that episode too. It was very interesting!
That confused me enormously until I realised I was thinking of the wrong Max Miller. I couldn’t quite come to terms with a bloke in silk plus fours and a white hat going “‘Ere, ‘ere” whilst pointing at dinosaurs.
Ah yes Dinosaurs, they predate my time by a few years.
Thanks for this, loved your commercial!
My first ever school trip was to Crystal Palace Park. Saw the dinosaurs, rode on a donkey. Day ended dramatically when a boy fell and cut his knee open on a piece of glass hidden in the grass. Had to go by ambulance to hospital to get it stitched while the rest of us got the 12A bus back to school..
Crystal Palace Park is a fascinating place..
I have put together a talk about the history of the Crystal Palace, a few months ago someone at the talk who grew up in the area told me that many shards of glass from the palace remained embedded in the ground and it was an extreemly hazardous patch of land!
Grew up round there and glad to know they are still around!
As a scientist I must remember your quote "scientific progress means getting someone’s elbow in your soup"!
A childhood family walk in Maidstone passed Benstead's or iguanadon quarry where Mantell investigated bones found by the owner which comprised a more complete iguanadon skeleton in 1834. Mantell purchased the skeleton for £25 for the natural history museum. A consequence is that Maidstone now has an iguanadon as a supporter to its coat of arms.
Is this connected to why there's a dinosaur in Cobtree Manor Park?
Back in the 1980s, I used to come here occasionally with my daughter, and the dinosaurs were much more freely accessible than they are now - you could pat them, or even climb on them if you were so minded. Bringing her sons here, several decades later, was almost disappointing, although I am glad that they are so well looked after.
I visited the dinosaurs a few years ago with some old college friends, one of whom had qualified in Geology. On the way home, we got lost amongst the Victorian terraced streets nearby. My friend remarked: "I've just noticed something: all the streets around here are named after famous geologists".
More than usually splendid! Will you be doing Crystal Palace Stadium's history? It hosted the FA Cup final from 1895 to 1914. Teams that won the Cup there include Bury, so extinction could be a linking thread to this videos.
Don't forget the almost intact race circuit too, abolished when moody Bromley council took over and said nyetski to anything like having fun.
@@dodgydruid Do you mean motor racing? The National Sports Centre's still there.
@@dodgydruid There is also a 1/6th scale remote control car race circuit just behind the swimming pool.
@@glynwelshkarelian3489 Yes he means motor racing! There was regular proper motor racing in a circuit around the where the stadium and sports centre are now. The turnstiles near the bridge over to the sports centre from the south of the park are where you would enter to watch the cars. Most of the circuit is still there as paths to meander along.
Disappointed. I was expecting the dinosaurs to be on rails. 😂😂
😂 😂 😂 😂 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
Standard or Broad Gauge?
@@brettpalfrey4665 Narrow. The dinosaurs hadn't yet invented horses, so had nothing to base the gauge on. ;)
Another well done video. You had a beautiful day for your recording.
I always love the ad reads Mr Hazzard produces.
"... they teach us that science is forever moving forward, and also that it can be made to serve an agenda"
Wise words, Jago, and something that is becoming ever more apparent these days. Really looking forward to your feature on the Palace, proper.
A pleasant change. Thank you.
As a child I had a "Book of Monsters" that had all the details of these, probably still have the book. When I was working in London (without mentioning details of the hosp... employer), I had an arsehole boss who sent me down near Crystal Palace without a taxi voucher. Needless to say, i spent some time visiting my childhood heroes and blamed the tube for my extended absence!
Prehistoric life in Jagoland.
Quote of the Day: “Scientific Progress means getting someone’s elbow in your soup.”
Nan lived in penge so visited the park often and also enjoyed a few classical concerts at the rusty laptop stage but not been there since she passed
"The Current head is a replica and the original displayed quite prominently nearby" Have you been round my flat again Jago ?
I trust you will be covering the Television museum at Crystal Palace (and coverage of the markets around Westow Hill will be rewarding too). Going somewhere to the north westish of Crystal Palace Parade etc down the hill toward Dulwich , or indeed the glorious Horniman Museum and park gives lots of interesting stuff south of the river , you know they even build railways to enable easier access to get here (but life has never been the same since the trolleybuses were withdrawn)
I lived in a flat near there, ages ago. In the age of slam-door commuting. (Train reference)
The 'dinosaur' sculptures - which were a lot raggier in those days - were indeed hilarious.
There was a little petting zoo as well; I got bit by a horse,
Next to the cavalry horses in Whitehall there is a warning sign saying they may kick or bite. That's all I know about horses and it's all anyone needs to know.
There is a Brett Anderson song called To The Winter where he mentions siting in Crystal Palace with the plastic dinosaurs
Hail, Hail Mantle. Boo to Owen. Well done Jago.
I seem to remember a giant Sloth climbing a tree, its pose was suggestive. It has now disappeared. The tree that was holding the sloth up was going to fall down. 😊
It’s back, but it’s not easy to see. I think it’s in a couple of shots.
Love Crystal Palace and travelling there from home as a kid on the endlessly seeming 122 bus
A bit different but I really enjoyed this one. I also found myself agreeing with most of your general comments and takes
I wish I could eat inside the Diner-saur
Fun Dino fact, in the early days of palaeontology there were two broad classifications of dinosaur - Lizard Hipped and Bird Hipped, the Bird Hipped became extinct and the Lizard Hipped evolved into birds 🤦♂️
There are some very interesting, hidden places in London
It's not that hidden - it's just not Central London! But very easily accessible from there, though.
That the Crystal Palace “dinosaurs” are on a par with the Palace of Westminster sounds about right to me.
About 50 years ago at primary school we were taught about the iguanadon confusion. They never mentioned the intercostal clavicle though.
Just as I comment on an old Streets of London video that Jago should go off the rails a bit and revisit some of these gems, this appears. Brilliant!
Never knew I wanted to go and visit Crystal Palace Park until now. Can't see the link to CP Dinosaurs promised at 9:10 though? The news of the Palaeotherium replica is bang up to date as apparently it was only unveiled on 2 July 2023, less than 3 weeks before this video appeared.
Lived 300 yards from there for 10 years until the early noughties so, close to my heart. There seem to be a couple of new things and also the area seems to be be more luxuriantly foliaged which makes it look more wild and prehistoric. I mostly remember obnoxious crowds with prams and dogs.
Today (20th July, the day after this video was posted) is the 219th anniversary of Richard Owen's birth. I suspect that only Jago's weekly schedule prevented it being posted today.
Owen was the founding director of the Natural History Museum but thankfully his statue there is now in a suitably gloomy side alcove.
The way you said "Incogni!" to silence the dinosaurs for some reason reminded me of J.K. Rowling's "expelliamus!" It seems to me that they serve similar but unrelated purposes. If nothing else, though, I've proved I was listening ....
we took our dog round Crystal Palace park & he kept barking furiously at the dinosaurs - it was so sweet
Excellent! I really enjoyed that. I knew absolutely nothing about any of this! A trip to Crystal Palace Park is obviously required...
My local friends :-) I love the park and dinos especially. Saying hello from Forest Hill to my favourite youtuber!
Not been there since 1969. Thank you, wonderful insight!
Other interesting thing about Crystal Palace is definitely the race track. Racing sim RFactor2 has an amazing version of it, if you want to go back in time in VR (the film Rush also refers to it).
I remember going there quite often in the very early 70's when I was a kid and seeing these. I also remember going to the motor racing circuit which was also at Crystal Palace.
I recently visited the exhibit on a trip to the UK. The park is lovely, and the “dinosaurs” interested me ever since reading about them as a child. Well worth a visit!
It is all part of the grand history of Palaeontology and the evolution of Palaeoart. It all has it's place.
I’ve spotted a dinosaur on my bookshelf…it’s a thesaurus 🦖
Sir Richard has a very striking demeanour.
Or is that nightmarish?
Who is the real terrifying lizard?
Bit left field for you mate , excellently narrated as usual , them dinosaurs scared the poop out of me when my parents took me there as a toddler in the early 60s .
Thank you for bringing back my 50/60s childhood, I and my siblings were brought up in Selhurst and the park was regularly visited.
As much as I enjoy your train and tube based content, I think your 'weird stuff in London' videos may be even better! (Sacrilege!)
I'd certainly like to see more of them, pre-pandemic I spent many long days walking the streets to find interesting stories, and there are so many out there! Always well researched and presented too. Thank you Mr Hazzard.
That was fascinating, I was born in London, lived here all my life and did not know Crystal Palace was first erected in Hyde Park then moved to where it is associated with now.
When I was a small boy you were allowed to sit on them and play. I remember them as moving, though.... It WAS a long time ago.
I left a like and subscribed for more. A pleasant surprise.
Cheers.
I remember visitng these on a school trip in the late 70's, it's good to hear that they're still around and being looked after.
I looked at video title. No train. Click anyway. Good video. Good bad dinos. Bad Sir Richard Owen.
Thanks Jago. A good diversion for you. I shall try to give the dinosaurs a visit soon. I'm in north London but can get to Crystal Palace easily - one stop on the Tube then the Overground (what a wonderoud thing the Overground is).
London Zoo has replica of dinosaurs dotted all over the zoo. Perhaps that park should be made into a zoo just like at London Zoo in Camden, North London. Fascinating to see how dinosaurs were around millions of years ago before us humans ever existed and changed the whole landscape that we should look after it. And not destroying it with new homes being built on green belt.
Hi Jago from a rather warm Spain (currently 38°.) 'Verrrry interrrresting' as a certain Scotsman used to say in Dad's Army. Some of those sculptures remind me somewhat of some of the old dinosaurs we had as teachers after WWII - too old to go and fight but not too old to confound youngsters with their antiquated ideas.
I grew up near Crystal Palace and spent many happy hours in the park looking at the dinosaurs. Thank you for posting this so I can introduce friends to my childhood.
Both my parents used to live in the area, and tell me that around the time of the 2nd world war they used to sneak inside the larger dinosaurs with friends to have picnics, etc.
Hi Jago, I have some old Kodak transparencies of these creatures from way back and preserved for posterity on a CD.
Ironically Kodak transparencies last longer than CDs. I've got some of my grandad's from the early 50s and they are perfect, no fading or discolouring.
Brilliant video, thank you. It's still on my list to visit in London.
I think this video is an excuse put forward by Jago to go on holiday and possibly visit the Jurassic coast and Lyme Regis with the mention of Mary Anning
I'm going to Lyme Regis on Tuesday- if Mr. Hazzard's also there I'd gladly buy him a pint.
I loved The final twist in the tale was (chef’s kiss) ❤
This is one of few landmarks in London I've still got on my list of places to go see.
And while I wouldn't want them changed, I would like to see full-scale reconstructions that fully reflect what the experts now think they all looked like. Maybe something for another park? All the same species, plus a few select more, and make them full colour with feathers and all.
If you want to know how horrible Richard Owen really was, read ‘ The Dinosaur Hunters’ by Deborah Cadbury. Wonderful book!
Don't know what happened to my comment but YT does strange things.
Just here to say i spent many a happy hour as a kid in the '60s around these sculpture's along with the statue of "Guy the Gorilla" at the park entrance.
I do have a shot of Guy. I should do something with it.
@jago this is the first video I've seen which I'd rewatch just for the sponsorship message. Masterful - You should win an award!
An interesting insight on how our ancestors developed their theories. As you said, science marches on - well not in those words, exactly. You weren't feeding those dratted pigeons, were you?
9:44 idk why, but this ending shot really gives me Tales of the Riverbank vibes
The conversation with the dinosaur felt very real 😅
Great video, I do hope you've got plans to cover some of the railways that were in the park over the years, like the one installed for the Festival of Empire, or the earlier pneumatic railway, which is where the trapped victorian train carriage in a tunnel ghost story seems to originate from.
There's the remnants (no track I don't think) of a railway that ran down the side of Horniman's Museum and Gardens. I wonder if it connected to Crystal Palace?
@@hatjodelka That's from the route of the the high level station, I think the part in the Horniman gardens would be between Lordship Lane and Honor Oak stations.
What I was referring to was railways that were within the actual park, the pneumatic railway was thought to run along the north side of the park connecting the higher terrace levels with the lower boating lake near the dinosaurs, there was an archeological dig in the 70s and 80s to try and find it and they found sleepers but the tunnels seem to have been demolished.
@@TheWho87 Ah, thanks, I understand.
Wow!! Sir Richard Owen sounds like another rogue in the mould of a certain American Entrepreneur who features a lot on this channel!! Nice vid ,Jago! looking forward to the video on Crystal Palace...
Yeah, he was not at all a nice man.
@@bentilbury2002 I actually think he gets a rather unfair vilification these days.
''If only the Geologists would let me alone, I could do very well, but those dreadful Hammers! I hear the clink of them at the end of every cadence of the Bible verses''.
John Ruskin
Must have been a terrible shock to those brought up on the Bible being literally 'The Gospel Truth'.
hi jago. quite a stray from the tube by a few billion years . but since you brought up this particular topic i remember watching a news clip (could be on the ITV) back in the sixties.
Great video, thanks. Owen did at least one good deed - he helped establish The Natural History Museum in London. Bill Bryson tells the entertainingly shocking story of Mantell Vs Owen in some more detail in his book 'A short History of Nearly Everything'.
Would be kind of funny if someone built a big statue of Godzilla there.
I remember taking the kids there in the late 80s when I lived in Blackheath. Even my kids, though young, could see that the similarity of some of them to actual dinosaurs was rather distant. but they loved them nonetheless.
What a fantastic and balanced conclusion you draw 👏
I grew up in Croydon and used to go to this park all the time as a kid, I loved seeing the dinosaurs. Its such a shame they're not better looked after
I know another guy of current fame that has decades of taking credit for other's work. Claimed he graduated with three degrees at the top of his class, turns out he didn't. Back in prehistoric times when the media brought that to light. The prebidenasourous period if I remember correctly. About 2.8 gabillion tears ago.
The soul group?