I just now got to watching this (was busy with the kids the last couple of days) but thank you so much for doing this review. I know I have a long way to go in getting better at AN and to have something like this is super valuable. I definitely spaced on the initial enclosure placement. Though the timing of getting the rep didn't cost me, I missed out on the line where I could at least delay upgrading build because of it and I was just not thinking about any of that in-game. at 1:07:45 I spend an X to snap the Tamarin. I was definitely focused on getting that Americas tag for myself because I felt like the race to Americas 5 was still something I could contest. Obviously that move didn't work out for me but I left that situation thinking maybe it was right to be really aggressive about that. Looking at your analysis you immediately question it like you at least thought I had time to build first. You mention that he build size2+size3 with his last build, was there anything else about that situation that caused you to have a different read there, like did you have some other reason to think he had enough Americas tags? Just trying to get some more wisdom here. Overall with these two exceptions it was nice to know that the rest of your commentary about my plays was so much in line with what I was thinking during the game, even down to other lines you consider that I didn't take but I was also considering. The difference between a ~600 elo player and higher really comes down to these small decisions that are easy to miss but have a big impact. Again, thank you for doing this. Something like this is hard to find and its value is not lost on me.
Re: Tamarin it was a combination of a couple of things. Building the size 2+3 is part of it. It at least suggests they have 2 animals to play before they are thinking about the Tamarin. Given we know that, it's probably not an urgent snap for them - i.e. they should not spend an x-token themselves to snap it up. If they do I think you just have to live with it. Second part of it is I think Dugong is scarier for them to have. It's a Herbivore for the project, but more importantly the double water icons for their Aquarium. Given there are 2 pretty decent cards in the display you can build first knowing you will at least get one of them (if they spend an x-token to snap). Dugong is nice for you as you already have Aus partner zoo. Third part of it is it's only the 4th Americas tag for you. If it was the 5th you have a much stronger case for snapping it. Fourth part is spending x-tokens is a bad habit (one that I'm still trying to kick), especially on actions like cards or build it can really hurt your tempo.
@@NoWondersTV Two things I think I missed there, but the biggest thing in-game I just wasn't thinking about was the value of the two water tags for my opponent. I think if I had thought about that, I would have realized the value of Dugong and at least not spent the X for cards there. It's interesting to me what you say about spending X tokens though. That's not something I think I have a "bad habit" of but I'll be a bit more mindful of spending them.
I think the placement and missing out in the early 1 rep costed you a lot. The 1 worker CP bonus I was not a fan of. If you had the 1 rep and the earlier upgrade from 5 rep you could have just gotten a worker from the CP track and have snapping instead. Then you have muskox right away plus you have the tempo to get America's partner zoo that round and play muskox or deer (to avoid discard) and snapping would have given you the dugong. In general I think worker at 2 CP such an undervalued move while worker from CP bonus is very overrated. I'd say that most times snapping or 5 money gives more benefit than the card upgrade you get here. Yes it does mean you'll stay on 3 upgrades the whole game but that's hardly an issue if you have no upgraded sponsors to play. Especially with breeding project openings worker from CP track is good because you'll get your 5 rep upgrade and 2nd partner zoo upgrades fast anyway.
@@markvanderwerf8592 I do think the worker at 2CP is probably taken less than it should be, but this map is one of the hardest to do that with, because you're turning down 2CP by not upgrading association. It's a lot of why I wanted to turn down the upgraded sponsors in the opening, because I wanted to upgrade association. Are you saying that even in this game, you would have taken worker at 2CP? Obviously I should have placed the initial enclosure over the rep spot, but I'm saying it didn't cost me that much because Animals was upgraded right before, giving me the 5th rep without any real loss in between. In other cases it could have cost me so it was a clear mistake to me, but if I'm taking the worker on 2CP, what is the other card I'm not upgrading besides Sponsors? Is it Animals? That seems crazy because by that point I'm holding an eagle. Is it association?
@@AdamHorton01 you are missing out the option to get 2CP from partner zoos yes. But really even if you upgrade association you rarely get that, 4 partner zoos is just too time consuming typically to do unless you upgrade association and get a lot of X tokens somehow. I definitely think worker from CP track was the way to go there, you had 2 upgrades coming in fast anyway, did you really need a 3rd upgrade fast? I just don't see the need why you would ever need to get a 3rd partner zoo this game and snapping looked very useful at that point.
Game 1- Europe partner zoo instead of Asia maybe because no other Europes had been seen, increasing chance of future reveals? Keeping bird release because so many high value releasable birds (not ostrich IMO given its cost) Never discount the danger of science tags! Was waiting for the library to hit…
Game 2-Really don’t like keeping Koala leading to opening with Australia partner. I’d prefer no Koala at all, especially with pouching hard to use early game to the max. Instead I’d go Reindeer + Am partner. Aus partner doesn’t contribute to base and Aus animals weaker + 6 fewer of them than America, while Am zoo blocks oppo (granted they went first round uni).
I really like the Koala as a first animal. In a vacuum Australia is the weakest continent, but it's not /that/ bad. Koala is enough of a reason to start Australian partner zoo and not feel bad about it. It's just so efficient. I find pouching easier in the first round because of your small hand size. You will often have excess cards that you can't hold anyway. 12 appeal is a huge huge income boost compared to the 5 that Reindeer by itself gives. Plus as I touched on, building over the 1 rep spot, getting 1 rep from Koala and 2 from the Breeding Program gives you that 2nd upgrade at the start of round 2 which is great. The issue with Reindeer by itself is due to how the animals are balanced. If you play Reindeer directly into a size 3 enclosure it is inefficient because you are paying for a Flock ability that you're not using. The Koala makes the Reindeer more efficient, as well as both of them contributing to the Herbivores project. Re: blocking - there would be an argument for just Reindeer if the Americas project was open at 2. Given that it's only open at 4/5 blocking is not really a thing to be concerned about. Neither player is getting 4 or 5 icons before round 2.
Hmm, possibly. Contesting the donations would make it harder for the opponent, but at the same time, Tsong Chen did get good value from the cards upgrade. Cards is the safer option for me, and when you have a massive income lead like that, I think safe is the right way to play.
Thanks for covering this game (game 2). Adam and I debated this hand a lot, and I was the one who encouraged him to send it to you for review. I was on the ‘strong sponsors’ side. You also didn’t mention species in the 3/4 a lot and koala plays well into that. (Edit: mentioned later)
It got quite the mixed reaction in the top secret discord server. Some even saying keep all 4 sponsors! For me I think you have to keep Koala/Deer/Breeding Program at least. It's a very safe opening and there's not much that can go wrong. Starting 3 or 4 sponsors can run into problems if the opponent starts aggressively breaking on you. Very fun game though, thanks for pushing Adam to send it in!
Pretty meh first moves in the first few minutes of the video I think. The rhino snap was a bit weird since it pushes the break when they want a long round (since they have several sponsors to play, and round 1 project with potential worker reward), and it's not like rhino is THAT good at this point of the game. Also puts spokesperson in range for an opponent that just took 2rep1science uni. Then I feel like taking 5 money with the ambition to get both animals out is greedy, especially when you already did Cards to push to break 2 (though they didn't end up getting punished so I guess it works). Besides taking 5 money income at all on Park Restaurant feels wasteful unless it's really necessary. And then Ostrich release was looking good, since you can put rhino (or something else you find) in the enclosure after release.
Sure, I think the only issue with the Rhino snap is that tactically it put Spokesperson in range for the opponent. But it's interesting, right. Tsong Chen has had sustained success valuing Rhinos that highly. Everyone knows they are good of course, but even I wouldn't have snapped a Rhino in that spot either. Maybe this game it didn't work out, but it's a mental note for me to value them higher than I currently am. I think the 5 money reward also relates to the Rhino. It makes both animals playable first round but then also sets you up to play the expensive Rhino later. If his hand was only cheap animals he probably takes worker or snapping instead.
Hmm, maybe! Knowing how the game turned out, that Eagle came in very clutch at the end of the game. Plus the 1 extra money from x-ing cards and breaking 5 becomes relevant later!
I definitely needed to draw something good there. Rhino wasn't my only out (a smaller herbivore or any flocker maybe would have been enough) but yeah I felt behind that whole game.
Wow that second game. I kept changing my mind on who I thought would take it.
Up until the Macaque play I was thinking there was no way. I even knew the result and didn't see how it was possible!
I just now got to watching this (was busy with the kids the last couple of days) but thank you so much for doing this review. I know I have a long way to go in getting better at AN and to have something like this is super valuable.
I definitely spaced on the initial enclosure placement. Though the timing of getting the rep didn't cost me, I missed out on the line where I could at least delay upgrading build because of it and I was just not thinking about any of that in-game.
at 1:07:45 I spend an X to snap the Tamarin. I was definitely focused on getting that Americas tag for myself because I felt like the race to Americas 5 was still something I could contest. Obviously that move didn't work out for me but I left that situation thinking maybe it was right to be really aggressive about that. Looking at your analysis you immediately question it like you at least thought I had time to build first. You mention that he build size2+size3 with his last build, was there anything else about that situation that caused you to have a different read there, like did you have some other reason to think he had enough Americas tags? Just trying to get some more wisdom here.
Overall with these two exceptions it was nice to know that the rest of your commentary about my plays was so much in line with what I was thinking during the game, even down to other lines you consider that I didn't take but I was also considering. The difference between a ~600 elo player and higher really comes down to these small decisions that are easy to miss but have a big impact.
Again, thank you for doing this. Something like this is hard to find and its value is not lost on me.
Re: Tamarin it was a combination of a couple of things. Building the size 2+3 is part of it. It at least suggests they have 2 animals to play before they are thinking about the Tamarin. Given we know that, it's probably not an urgent snap for them - i.e. they should not spend an x-token themselves to snap it up. If they do I think you just have to live with it.
Second part of it is I think Dugong is scarier for them to have. It's a Herbivore for the project, but more importantly the double water icons for their Aquarium. Given there are 2 pretty decent cards in the display you can build first knowing you will at least get one of them (if they spend an x-token to snap). Dugong is nice for you as you already have Aus partner zoo.
Third part of it is it's only the 4th Americas tag for you. If it was the 5th you have a much stronger case for snapping it.
Fourth part is spending x-tokens is a bad habit (one that I'm still trying to kick), especially on actions like cards or build it can really hurt your tempo.
@@NoWondersTV Two things I think I missed there, but the biggest thing in-game I just wasn't thinking about was the value of the two water tags for my opponent. I think if I had thought about that, I would have realized the value of Dugong and at least not spent the X for cards there.
It's interesting to me what you say about spending X tokens though. That's not something I think I have a "bad habit" of but I'll be a bit more mindful of spending them.
I think the placement and missing out in the early 1 rep costed you a lot.
The 1 worker CP bonus I was not a fan of. If you had the 1 rep and the earlier upgrade from 5 rep you could have just gotten a worker from the CP track and have snapping instead. Then you have muskox right away plus you have the tempo to get America's partner zoo that round and play muskox or deer (to avoid discard) and snapping would have given you the dugong.
In general I think worker at 2 CP such an undervalued move while worker from CP bonus is very overrated. I'd say that most times snapping or 5 money gives more benefit than the card upgrade you get here. Yes it does mean you'll stay on 3 upgrades the whole game but that's hardly an issue if you have no upgraded sponsors to play. Especially with breeding project openings worker from CP track is good because you'll get your 5 rep upgrade and 2nd partner zoo upgrades fast anyway.
@@markvanderwerf8592 I do think the worker at 2CP is probably taken less than it should be, but this map is one of the hardest to do that with, because you're turning down 2CP by not upgrading association. It's a lot of why I wanted to turn down the upgraded sponsors in the opening, because I wanted to upgrade association. Are you saying that even in this game, you would have taken worker at 2CP?
Obviously I should have placed the initial enclosure over the rep spot, but I'm saying it didn't cost me that much because Animals was upgraded right before, giving me the 5th rep without any real loss in between. In other cases it could have cost me so it was a clear mistake to me, but if I'm taking the worker on 2CP, what is the other card I'm not upgrading besides Sponsors? Is it Animals? That seems crazy because by that point I'm holding an eagle. Is it association?
@@AdamHorton01 you are missing out the option to get 2CP from partner zoos yes. But really even if you upgrade association you rarely get that, 4 partner zoos is just too time consuming typically to do unless you upgrade association and get a lot of X tokens somehow.
I definitely think worker from CP track was the way to go there, you had 2 upgrades coming in fast anyway, did you really need a 3rd upgrade fast?
I just don't see the need why you would ever need to get a 3rd partner zoo this game and snapping looked very useful at that point.
Game 1- Europe partner zoo instead of Asia maybe because no other Europes had been seen, increasing chance of future reveals?
Keeping bird release because so many high value releasable birds (not ostrich IMO given its cost)
Never discount the danger of science tags! Was waiting for the library to hit…
Science Library would have been killer
So i've been wondering a while now but did BGA take a random asian person's photo and photoshop it into victory column or is that actually tsong chen
😂
It's him - the publisher reaches out to each winner and gets them to send in a photo.
Game 2-Really don’t like keeping Koala leading to opening with Australia partner. I’d prefer no Koala at all, especially with pouching hard to use early game to the max. Instead I’d go Reindeer + Am partner. Aus partner doesn’t contribute to base and Aus animals weaker + 6 fewer of them than America, while Am zoo blocks oppo (granted they went first round uni).
I really like the Koala as a first animal. In a vacuum Australia is the weakest continent, but it's not /that/ bad. Koala is enough of a reason to start Australian partner zoo and not feel bad about it. It's just so efficient. I find pouching easier in the first round because of your small hand size. You will often have excess cards that you can't hold anyway. 12 appeal is a huge huge income boost compared to the 5 that Reindeer by itself gives. Plus as I touched on, building over the 1 rep spot, getting 1 rep from Koala and 2 from the Breeding Program gives you that 2nd upgrade at the start of round 2 which is great.
The issue with Reindeer by itself is due to how the animals are balanced. If you play Reindeer directly into a size 3 enclosure it is inefficient because you are paying for a Flock ability that you're not using. The Koala makes the Reindeer more efficient, as well as both of them contributing to the Herbivores project.
Re: blocking - there would be an argument for just Reindeer if the Americas project was open at 2. Given that it's only open at 4/5 blocking is not really a thing to be concerned about. Neither player is getting 4 or 5 icons before round 2.
If TS has such a massive eco advantage, would it make sense to upgrade association over cards, and push the game forwards via donations?
Hmm, possibly. Contesting the donations would make it harder for the opponent, but at the same time, Tsong Chen did get good value from the cards upgrade. Cards is the safer option for me, and when you have a massive income lead like that, I think safe is the right way to play.
Thanks for covering this game (game 2). Adam and I debated this hand a lot, and I was the one who encouraged him to send it to you for review. I was on the ‘strong sponsors’ side.
You also didn’t mention species in the 3/4 a lot and koala plays well into that. (Edit: mentioned later)
It got quite the mixed reaction in the top secret discord server. Some even saying keep all 4 sponsors! For me I think you have to keep Koala/Deer/Breeding Program at least. It's a very safe opening and there's not much that can go wrong. Starting 3 or 4 sponsors can run into problems if the opponent starts aggressively breaking on you. Very fun game though, thanks for pushing Adam to send it in!
Yeah sometimes if you don't play well you lose. Pretty fair
Happens to all of us. We all make mistakes, higher elo just means they happen less frequently.
tsong chen throwing away that ostrich is a really bad move imo, but his start was op so it really shouldn’t matter
edit: LMAO it mattered
Really bad might be an overstatement, I think unlucky to not find a nice releasable bird sooner! But as they say, a bird in the hand...
Pretty meh first moves in the first few minutes of the video I think. The rhino snap was a bit weird since it pushes the break when they want a long round (since they have several sponsors to play, and round 1 project with potential worker reward), and it's not like rhino is THAT good at this point of the game. Also puts spokesperson in range for an opponent that just took 2rep1science uni. Then I feel like taking 5 money with the ambition to get both animals out is greedy, especially when you already did Cards to push to break 2 (though they didn't end up getting punished so I guess it works). Besides taking 5 money income at all on Park Restaurant feels wasteful unless it's really necessary. And then Ostrich release was looking good, since you can put rhino (or something else you find) in the enclosure after release.
Sure, I think the only issue with the Rhino snap is that tactically it put Spokesperson in range for the opponent. But it's interesting, right. Tsong Chen has had sustained success valuing Rhinos that highly. Everyone knows they are good of course, but even I wouldn't have snapped a Rhino in that spot either. Maybe this game it didn't work out, but it's a mental note for me to value them higher than I currently am.
I think the 5 money reward also relates to the Rhino. It makes both animals playable first round but then also sets you up to play the expensive Rhino later. If his hand was only cheap animals he probably takes worker or snapping instead.
At 58:20 you said nothing is better to draw except the other eagle. Imagine you draw the llama, would you keep it other the eagle in this case?
Hmm, maybe! Knowing how the game turned out, that Eagle came in very clutch at the end of the game. Plus the 1 extra money from x-ing cards and breaking 5 becomes relevant later!
I dont think adam would've won if he did not draw the rhino last round
This is true, and you can probably say the same about half the games I review. Ark Nova is a game full of ifs!
I definitely needed to draw something good there. Rhino wasn't my only out (a smaller herbivore or any flocker maybe would have been enough) but yeah I felt behind that whole game.
I am beyond impressed that you had another replay window queued up to get past the replay bug. You are the best!!
Haha, I just wish they would fix them up. Last few weeks have all had bugs
That first round by Tsong Chen is a thing of beauty
The Capuchin draw, the primate pilfer. You could not ask for a better start!