This episode was recorded on 07/09/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-6v6-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a
6 v 6 but 1 tank , 3 DPS , 2 Support or , 1 tank , 4 dps 1 support make it an actual FPS game. No one ever mentions this didnt need to be just 2 tanks 2 dps 2 aupport. Overwatch could have changed it to something like that but imo too lazy so just removed player hero so 5 v 5 now
@@ZacharyTech7 In one of his final forum posts before leaving the company, Jeff K. said that they had tested single-support as a possible alternative to 1-2-2, but they said that it made too many games completely revolve around who killed the one support first. Tanks were more manageable in this regard because they were harder to kill in general, whereas if a fight starts with your Support being in the wrong place at the wrong time as a Hanzo arrow flies by, then that fight's basically lost already.
I don't mean this as a slight to your past content put this debate was the best one. A lot of good points on both sides that i didn't consider and well moderated, keep it up.
Nah dude. If you had a tank counterpart who wasn't great, you could sweat and make up the work and still pull a win. And those games were the MOST fun games, where you sweat and make up for your other tank.. And those were what, every 3-4 games?. Some games you didnt have to sweat, some games you both had to sweat. All 2 tank games were FUN. It is NOT fun when you have to sweat like that EVERY SINGLE GAME. With 6 v 6 you could subconsciously count and be aware of enemy cooldowns and make plays by just playing the game. In 5 v 5 on tank you have to be switched on and consciously counting cooldowns 100% of the time. It's NOT AS FUN FOR TANK! IT'S F'CKING MENTALLY DRAINING AF!!!! 5 v 5 SUCKS FOR TANK PLAYERS!!!! BRING BACK 6 v 6 PLEASE!!! Sincerely, Gold/plat player, PS: I loved tank in OW1. It was equally my main role to Support. Now in OW Too 5 v 5, my main role is DPS and Support. Tank is UNPLAYABLE! DPS in 6 v 6 was amazing. You were a LION. Waiting to pounce and make your plays, and when you did the dopmamine hit was BIG! In 5 v 5 DPS play like Chimpanzee's (CoD games) and your plays feel meh. Dopamine hit is meh. A 5K in 5 v 5 feels about as good as a 2k in 6 v 6. Brain chemistry folks. 6 v 6 was better for the dopamine, risk vs reward plays. Now in 5 v 5 its cortisol drips with a tiny wee little puny wee dopamine. If there were 15 tanks to choose from in OW1, ALL OF THE ISSUE WITH 6 v 6 WOULD BE LESSENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Game released with 5 tanks and 14 DPS. Of course DPS queue would be 10000x heavier than any other role. You can't get bored on DPS with VARIETY OF HERO CHOICE!!!!!!!!! Not to mention, in OW1, devs realeased LESS TANKS THAN DPS AND SUPPORT!!!! THERE WAS 3 NEW TANKS AND 4 NEW SUPPORTS AND DPS!! OF COURSE TANK HAS LESS PLAY!!! THEY NEEDED TO NOT RELEASER ANY DPS HEROES AT ALL AND CATCH UP TANK AND SUPPORT ROLES TO 15 HEROES TO MATCH DPSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been playing tank in gold-masters (my main peak is masters in the current season Diamond 1 average) as well as support. I feel like I have 0 agency in the game whatsoever unless I play doomfist or zarya. Orissa just doesn't die, Rein just falls over, ball just melts, hog's useless, sig is okay, dva just gets rolled by zarya, and monkey melts. THe most unfun thing about tank is the wet noodle you hit everyone with because of how much healing there is in the game. I'll run through two clips, melees, jumps, on monkey to kill someone because of how much fucking healing is in the game. Couple this with enemy dps' ability to just lock hanzo/bastion/reaper/sym, it starts to severely limit what tanks you're able to play without just getting melted
@@noahodum9737 I don’t follow the wet noodle view of tanks. I can top elims and damage as Sigma, Orisa, Zarya, Ramattra, occasionally Hog. They are good at duelling supports and punishing them specifically, not just chipping away endlessly at the enemy tank. Damage heroes don’t have the survivability to dive a backline and kill through the support power. But the tank problem is the need to make space and coordinate with teamplay which hinges on what the supports choose to do. A lot of the time they retreat and don’t prioritise healing well. Goes for damage and support, but they don’t play corners well and get ganked from afar.
Agree! Tank players get blamed for everything. It so demotivation to play tanks in the lower ranks. Plus your tram never push with you yet you get blame for not cap the piint/payload
@@queenpen1398 Yes they have so much tunnel vision and aren't patient. Whole team can push with tank and sweep the fight, but all four of his teammates run away from a single enemy or won't push past lone enemy tank, leaving their tank to die, which they then call 'feeding' and the tank not playing with the team. Bros, just walk forward past the non-threat, to your tank that can help you, not backwards past three corners.
@@queenpen1398 Or OR just get better and learn the game. Who cares what your teammates think. Be the better player and you won’t get blamed. Focus on what YOU can do better instead of blaming your teammates.
if someone told me that samito will eventually be the most hinged guest on this pod like 3 years ago, i would've called that person a liar but here we are
How is he the most hinged lmao, you are just an NPC who is wowed by seeing someone who set the bar extremely low, improve themselves. AVRL has consistently been more level headed, Jake is a more rare guest but also comes across as more fair and relaxed, and SVB is just doing his best to stay neutral as much as possible. I didn't hate Samito here, he did a good job, but come on dude. He just set the bar extremely low.
I appreciate Sam raising his hand and not interrupting. It's a little annoying how much other people are talking over each other and interrupting before someone even finishes their point
Yea radnoms always give Sam crap but he's one of the most respectful creators out there when it comes to actually having a mature discussion, and showing interest in other people getting their points across in a fair manner.
FOR REAL JAKE AND AVRL HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT WAS, I was literally hardstuck bronze til the end of ow1 on dps, and I liked 6v6 10000x more, I AM that casual average (or below average lmfao) player (I'm plat now but still 6v6 is just better for overwatch)
Im a 5v5 guy but the 6v6 clearly easily won the debate without any question, the fact that avril and jake are so impatience and unpolite is mind blowing , the facts that the want to monopolise the discussion without bring out good point is ridiculous and quite annoying!
yeah even as someone who didnt like watching him because of the more toxic environment its actually so refreshing to see him be so polite. my respect for him has gone up massively.
it's like you can just tell samito's break from OW has done him a lot of good, he's definitely still passionate but he's also able to stay more objective in a lot of stances which i appreciate. glad to have him on the debate, and SVB was showing particularly excellent debate administration skills this time more than others in a lot of senses.
Only 2h into the video but I think something that isn't getting talked about here, a blind spot if you will, is what feels better to LOSE at. The 6v6 guys don't like being a solo tank, the 5v5 guys don't like anti-synergy tank duos, but which feels worse to lose at? I think Hawk expresses that frustration best -- being a tank main and not favored by flavor of the month SUCKS more than being stuck with a hog or ball otp as your off-tank where you can still try to make plays with them. 6v6 was more fun to lose at, as well as fun to win. 5v5 being more stompy isn't as fun as that.
I don't think AVRL or Jake talked about the "fun" aspect of the game. Sure, they can think the game is more balanced or whatever. But I would rather have fun on the game. OW isn't fun to me anymore, especially this season 6. This season was supposed to be the best, but I find myself playing it the least. I didn't quit playing the game, the devs made me quit. All of my friends quit. I don't know anyone who plays this game lately unless they are in college esports.
@@Mr_BucketHat as they said like 40 times, talking about very subjective topics like having fun is useless. They don't have the opinions of every player nor even the majority. What everyone can look (if Blizzard wants) is the data, something objective that everyone can agree on
@@LuigixD you are right. In my opinion, OW1 was more fun than OW2. I had a whole lot of fun initially, but the game has really died for me. There is a lot that I think needs to change, and they are certainly not going to be able to do it in one update, so I am not sure how long it will be until I finally enjoy it again.
@@chpgmr1372 nope, I enjoyed sweating tf out of comp all the way through "dead" ow1, it was not anywhere near as bad as people were making it out to be, I thought they were all complaining too much (I had a feeling we were going to lose something very special over it, and I was unfortunately right..)
I miss 6v6. Tank is miserable right now, I win or lose, doesn't matter... All the CC goes to you, it is always your fault, and at certain ELO, Diamond and above if your team doesn't play around you , you HAVE to counter swap or play the META. At least in 6v6 as pointed out, your other tank could fill the weaknesses or even work with the synergy, etc, more variety.
Samito bringing up DLC creep was the most understated argument the constant evolution of the game will leave older heroes in the past until they are changed.
This needs to be discussed more in the community. I’m sick of new characters having bloated kits that can do numerous roles. These dps supports have to go. Ironically, lifeweaver felt like a normal support and people hated him for that
it's not really "DLC creep", it's more like support creep. Holy shit. Who thought that making all the supports busted overpowered was a good idea? Support is literally the easiest role in the game and the one with the most no-skill heroes like Mercy. Really sad to see that Blizzard caters to all the girls that buy skins
@@johnsonspark171 is there really as much support creep as people are saying? I get that they are strong now, but I think it has peaked, as you can see with the fact that they nerfed the support passive, and several of the individually strong supports have been nerfed Ana has been nerfed a few times, they just nerfed Bap, Kiriko has stayed pretty steady since they nerfed her months back, Mercy got nerfed, even Zen (who tank players really hate, which is funny because I barely saw him when I was diamond, and I see him even less now that I'm in high masters) was nerfed slightly, (and by that point he had already slipped in the support totem pole from his S3-S4 peak, due largely to the Ana nade nerf). Illari of course is strong, but she was only recently released and has already been nerfed once (and I predict another one relatively soon), but even with how strong she is, it's not as oppressive as Sojourn was last year. If anything, we are beginning to see creep with some tanks, e.g., rather than substantially nerfing Orisa who is too strong (and we talk about too much sustain, it wasn't nearly as much of a problem until they buffed Orisa), they buff her counter.
I think one thing they overlooked a bit too much is when they talked about tanks being strong or playable when the average tank player just wants the role to be fun again. Playing tank sucks and feels significantly more stressful to play than the other roles now.
Bro in top 100 console it’s sooo boring. You legit can’t push in unless you’re team dose something. You almost can’t make space alone and you only play super defensive to punish mistakes. So boring Zzz Zzz
i think the point is that it also sucked in 6v6, but the two tanks were more oppressive to all the other roles (which i think is a fair argument). Personally i don't like the rock paper scissors of playing tank. But i also didn't enjoy tank in 6v6 lol
I kinda feel the complet oposite! I came back recently to overwatch and climbed to diamond 1 (2 games to masters) simply because tanks can do A L0T!! I can counter their snipers with dva and ball, i can counter their orisa with zarya, i can counter their reaper with dva and zarya... Most people i see playing tanks are just locking on 1 tank and complaining that the team isint helping
Coming back to this video after the season 11 patch notes and listening to the 5v5 arguments is so frustrating. "Tanks can be balanced for 5v5", "If you didn't pick synergistic tanks in OW1 you lose, it's unfun". "Tanks can be balanced for 5v5". No, they can't. It's been almost two years, tank is still the most underplayed, unfun, and most stressful role in the game and it's not even close. No matter how many buffs they've stacked on tank, be it knockback resistance, headshot resistance, more health, more whatever, it doesn't matter. No amount of buffs stacked on a single role will ever fix the core issues of it. For example, if you were running Hog Winston into Rein Zarya, and the Winston was getting too much value, the Rein might swap to Hog to counter. Sure the Winston might get pressured more, but the loss of frontline presence meant his Hog would have more space and be able to walk in and get more value. THE GAME HAD DEPTH. Now in OW2, it would be like instead of playing Hog Winston into Hog Zarya, it's more like playing Hog Winston into Hog D.Va. Because now in OW2, on tank you effectively get countered twice as hard. Since so much power has been shifted into a single role, you're forced to play 'Counterwatch' at EVERY level of play, no matter what. I played tank with my friends for four hours today, you wanna know how many games the enemy tank counter-picked? Every. Single. One. The tank problem in 5v5 is not a balance issue, it's baked right into the game design. Oh you thought an un-synergistic tank duo in OW1 was bad? In OW2, if you have a Winston and the enemy team has a Mauga, it feels exactly like you have Junkrat Sym against a Pharah-Mercy. Un-synergistic tanks duos were not a problem for the average level of play. I used to play all kinds of bad duos with my friends, and STILL had fun: Orisa Rein, Hog Ball, Winston Sig, Hog Sig, Orisa Winston. Even if we got rolled, at least we got rolled TOGETHER, and could still try to work together to win. Now, tank just feels empty and lonely, no one works with you and no one tries to help you. Best you can hope for is some heals or a nano so you can soak up more damage and more cooldowns for five more seconds, it's BORING. I don't even feel like I'm working with my team on tank anymore, they've turned the role into more of a meat-shield than it ever was in 6v6. Also, I just don't understand the whole "tank synergies are oppressive" argument. The same argument can apply to literally every other role. Fuck I have Hog Ball and the enemy has Orisa Sig, we can't win! Tank synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW2 everyone let's remove a tank and move to 5v5. Fuck I have Mercy Brig and the enemy has Lucio Kiri, we can't win! Support synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW3 everyone let's remove a support and move to 4v4. Fuck I have Widow Reaper and the enemy has Genji Tracer, we can't win! DPS synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW4 everyone let's remove a DPS and move to 3v3. Fuck I have Sig Sym Mercy and the enemy has Winston Tracer Kiri, we can't win! Team synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW5 everyone let's remove all roles and just make the game Widow headshot only free for all. To touch on playstyles a bit, they're basically non-existent, every tank is just dive or brawl. There's no peel-focused D.Va, tank-enabling Zarya, flanking Hog, or disrupting Ball. If you enjoyed those playstyles as a tank in OW1, people arguing in favour of 5v5 basically just say to you: "Fuck you, go sit on the frontline and take damage for me". All the tanks have been so watered down and homogenized that you could cut out half the roster and the game would basically feel the same. Orisa, Ram, Queen, Rein, Sig, Zarya, Hog, Mauga: Low mobility brawlers. D.Va, Winston, Doom, Ball: High mobility dive heroes. Congratulations, we now have two types of tank to choose from, with a choice of slightly different flavours. 6v6 was like chess, and we traded it for rock paper scissors. For background I started playing Overwatch a lot around 2020, one of the worst spots the game has had in its history. I was a high diamond Winston main/one trick who occasionally played Rein or Sigma. You'd think I had a horrible time playing main tank, and yeah sure sometimes it sucked, but it pales in comparison to the absolute joke of a state the role is in currently. Since Overwatch 2 came out I grinded to masters, then GM, then hit T500 playing only Winston, now I don't even want to play tank anymore, it's lonely and miserable. So thanks Blizzard for ruining my favourite role in my favourite FPS game, but hey, with the way they've treated the tank role, they clearly don't give a shit or are desperately trying to slap band-aid fix after band-aid fix over an unfixable problem. Anyway, rant over.
I remember playing 5v5 beta and being really bored and going back to 6v6. 6v6 synergies is what gave me the most dopamine when we were working as a team. Now it’s a chaotic death brawl there’s no teamwork synergies to be found. Genuinely what made 6v6 so disliked was the frequency of patches. And I guarantee you 5v5 was created to add reasoning for the cash shop.
@@jordanstarr2992it cant be “factually wrong” if I and a LOT of others feel the same. Tank diffs dictate games, more than other roles because there’s only one.
@@noahodum9737that’s more thank likely biased because tank diff is the most apparent. Because dps/support diff to most people is just who has higher number. Tank is expected to have the highest number, peel for the support, protect the dps, take/make space, deny enemy cool downs and so on. Tank just has the most jobs so when your tanks getting beaten in them it’s super obvious.
I come from the future, every point that the team 5v5 said aged like milk, "We need to rework old tanks" yeah, we reworked Hog and now he has no weakness and hard meta, Ball is still ass to play, Mauga is either broken or dogshit. They gigabuffed all tanks, reworked the pasives and they still feel like shit to play. You cant make this up LMAO 💀
Especially now that the devs have even released a blog post talking about this very topic. The devs even admit that there’s really serious challenges with solving the tank problem in 5v5 so the “easier to balance” claim clearly holds no water whatsoever.
I think we all are, 5v5ers are huffing a lot of copium. It’s almost like they didn’t play Overwatch before Brig&Sig with the Devs not being able to balance their overpowered heroes.
2:24:59 the problem is that jake isn't the only cringe tank player, it's like 90% of tank players at ALL elos. I've had people counterpicking me on tank from plat 5 all the way to gm1. When from the tank v tank matchup alone only 1/10 matches will be fun, lowered even further to like 1/20 by all the supps and DPS counterpicking you, it's just sucky. That's a fundamental 5v5 issue.
Its not just tanks counterpicking you either lol, its more like all 5 people on their team are sweaty enough to counter pick you, and your one trick moira genji and mercy start complaining about how you cant do shit against 5 people countering anything you decide to play. Tank is unplayable these days unless youre a virgin yourself spamming whatever broken ass tank they decided to buff for the current patch. Tank gameplay puts me to sleep and I used to love queueing flex, shame how miserable tank is these days
@@ironman1458 While there were many elements I liked about 6v6, and why I stuck with the game through all the dark years, the fact is that they couldn't get people interested enough in tank.
@@wandregisel6385 I mean did they even try though?? Lmfao they only added 2 new tanks in THE ENTIRETY OF OW1, 6 YEARS, 3 of those being completely AFK from adding content lmfao, now we're actually getting cool fun tanks, but 5v5 sucks balls, we wanna play JQ dva, idk random stuff like that, so JQ can actually ult without being slept/hindered and instantly rolled
I think both sides make great arguments, but I just have to say huge props to Samito. He takes into account others' position and concedes on points when appropriate. Everyone on the podcast has strong feelings but it all stems from the love of the game and I think that's great. Very interesting watch and I hope any developers watching can take some meaningful information away from this.
@@Kanggaxx My apologies for the confusion. I meant that he was willing to concede on points that he thinks is right. He's not arguing just to win if that makes sense. Samito is open to the opposition's point of view and makes his own judgements after the fact, not beforehand.
@@Kanggaxxwell he did win eitherway, 5v5 is 6v6’s problems but worse. “Flank the orsia” LOL like does jake even play the game? Yea like flank into 3 kids looking at you with 1000 immortal abilities while the orsia infinitely stalls point until you you die from the 3 people looking at you and then your tank has 5 people shooting him and he dies gg. Either that or you sit there shooting a unkillable tank forever til someone makes a mistake and you kill them or until they win. 5v5 is double shield in a different way where as 6v6 would be fixed right now with all the new changes.
The defence for 5v5 just sounds like there's literally no reason to play OW anymore because its all about deathmatching rather than the team fight aspect. Overwatch has lost any identity.
When I bought overwatch back in 2017 I knew what kind of game I was getting into and I adjusted. When it was 6v6 it felt more like a moba then a traditional fps and I had no problem with that.
@@lukeaustin4465 EXACTLY DUDE, I miss it not being just another shooter, the "it's an fps" argument for hitscan to be strong and against other cool unique characters (doom, venture) is the most BRAINDEAD thing I have ever seen in my life WE HAVE REINHARDT
Jakes point of being forced to pick a synergy hero may sound smart until you realise in 5v5 you are forced to play meta which actually reduces the probability of you being able to play your main
Lmao yeah and jake and AVRL saying tanks were too strong together: yes teamwork is strong, it will always BE STRONG, so what??? 'Teamwork is very strong vs non teamwork' like no shit?? Lmfao
Overwatch 1 tank main with over 1000 hrs on tank role playing in bronze through mid diamond playing all tanks. I loved tanking in O1 recently uninstalled O2. Samito hit the nail on the head for me at 1:48:00. The flexibility and the playstyles that you had to express yourself at lower levels of play were much higher, whereas in Overwatch 2 i feel funneled to play a specific playstyle that is not fun to me. For example, I used to play Reinhart (with another main tank) like an off tank, either super aggro, or sneaking around, taking highground, getting behind the team and shattering. I made it to diamond with that playstyle and it was so much fun. I'm not going to be the best in the world with that but now I don't have the option to try. Even if I had a hog on my team in O1 (which happened in a lot of games) I felt as if I had much more agency to play around the hog even if the other team had perfect tank synergy, through slower gameplay. It felt like when the conversation was shifted to the average player's perspective/experience, Samito was the only one that really seemed to understand what it was like, especially when referring specifically to the tank mains perspective. Also, how are we going to talk about tank queue times without mentioning they went from needing two tanks on a team, to one. Something else to add is that AVRL really overestimates how well people used tank synergy, even in diamond. You could literally play whatever tank you preferred at that level. At least in my experience. As long as you could deny their wincons
Right, the meta synergies and combos is stuff most of us don’t even pay attention to, we play who’s fun or who we’re good at. But it’s very easy to tell if you’re just getting counter picked in OW2 as a tank and I’m not even a tank main but I feel like I’m forced to switch sometimes, I’d rather just see 2 tanks. Taking over a game with orisa or ramattra is very fun to me ngl but when you’re on the other end of that it feels completely hopeless and snowballs hard. Having several duo options as tank (synergy or not) sounds more fun to me than being 1v1 counterpicked. And from a casual perspective 1 more player on both teams is just cool
Yea they don’t really seem to understand how lower ranks work. Sure you get the people that play meta. But you also get people that are gonna play doom fist into an orisa. Way more common to see weird stuff in lower leagues.
@@michaelsnyder8243 Yup most of us who don’t live and breathe OW don’t know wth the meta is currently. I just switch characters based on how good/bad we’re doing, i unfortunately know meta without trying in this game because solo tank makes it to where I’m seeing 80% of the same tank depending on the latest patch
@2:31:00 AVRL has no idea what he's talking about. Low ranked players would love for the game to be catered towards higher skill ceiling heroes. Even in low ranks the most popular heroes are Genji, Tracer, Hanzo, etc. And the most hated hero for years has been Moira because she makes it harder for them to enjoy the higher skill ceiling heroes. Heroes like Sym, Moira, Brig, etc have been the most hated in low ranks forever.
Lmfao for real dude, dps doom in ow1 being (technically) bad, and now venture being hard gutted because of lower ranks AND GENJI BY THE WAY, is so dumb and we like those characters they're fun af They literally just have no idea about low rank/average players, WHY are they even talking about them as if they know??
I love that 6v6 is being discussed more, for me that was real Overwatch and OW2 has yet to live up to even a fraction of Fun 6v6 brought me personally. I am a tank main, but i also play a lot of Supp and DPS and to be honest i dont find DPS and Supp more fun but i find Tank 100x less fun in 5v5. I noticed they couldnt really agree on a casual players perspective, which is the majority of the playerbase, in my opinion casuals dont care about balance, they just want to have fun, which was more easily achiveable on tank in 6v6. Qing with my OW noob friends, duoing tank with them and teaching the role is some of the best moments i had in gaming, making tank Solo, completly ruins it from a Social standpoint, since casuals cant play together as 2 tanks and you dont have this feeling of "We outplayed them together" which was just always so hype, i mean we notice it in OW2s voice chat, nobody talks, seems like everyone just lost their will to win. Balance is also debateable, but i think, if RoleQ got more than 6 months worth of patches, it would have been great, like sam said, the only real issue people had was 2x Shield, every other meta wasnt complained about if we are being honest. Id love for Blizzard to try 6v6 with less CC, less Shields and overall less of the AoE Heal/Immortality abilities which make gamepla feel cheap, if we get that i think OW would be at its peak, similar to 2016 - 2018.
Ok your points are good but I have have two big counters that are just dealbreakers for me. One idk wtf hawk is talking about but my que times in gold in 2022 overwatch 1 at dps were always 15-20 minutes and now they are 1-5 mins even at 4am at diamond. So que times massively benefited me and I assume the whole player base as obviously most players played dps and tank has always been the most un fun and unpopular role. Two is that having two less giant players on the screen makes the game feel so much more spacious as well as things are just much easier to see now. Like adding two mare tanks to every game and plus with fucking tree and flowers everywhere now I think the game would look so much worse than it does now. I agree tank sucks, but it always has. So shut up and swap to sigma so you win your games since in most cases winning is more important than playing fun heroes. Nah fr idk if 6v6 would be better or worse overall but as lower rank dps player I think it would be worse for me so no. Another factor to consider is that companies hate reverting big changes bc it makes them look stupid and wrong. And that might honestly be the biggest hurdle even if this was a much bigger issue I still think developers would be like “no, the majority of players don’t support that” even tho the majority prolly don’t even know about this issue.
@@Johnsmith36346 Qtimes i can understand, they are better, but you dont honestly think thats only because of 5v5 right? We are Comparing 2022 OW1, which got 0 Updates and no new content since 3 years, was stuck on a shit meta and with the promise that "OW2 will be better" and still cost 20€ / $ Compared to OW2 which got new maps, modes, heroes, patch notes, collaborations, Battle pass, shop and even PVE if we count that. The game is just in general healthier because it gets patched and the meta changes so more people come back. But the biggest thing for Qtimes, is that the game is F2P, it wouldnt have mattered if we stay 6v6, all the new content, patches every month and most importantly F2P would give the game enough players Game is after 1 year right now falling off though, obviously some shit decisions have been made but 5v5 just restricts casuals too much so they quit, thats my opinion on it I mean, in 6v6 you could always play rein in low elo and make it work, now you walk into Orisa/Bastion and cant, its miserable so people who love rein drop the game Or when youre playing against a Widow or a Pharah, back then another tank could help casuals deal with them, now i just get 1 Hog or even Mauga and widow / pharah just blast us down Imo, 2 more targets on the map is good, maps feel so empty nowdays I dont buy they wanted to remove "Visual Clutter" by removing 2 Tanks, because right after thst they give us Kiriko Ult, Ram Ult, Weaver ult, Illari Ult and now Maugs ult who are all as worse as sym ult in terms of clutter Its not a 5v5 or 6v6 issue, its them designing heroes that way Sorry for the long comment, but im so passionate about old OW, i get a bit depressed playing OW2, tank sucks way to much there
@@heiko2255 nah I usually have way longer comments. So 1 these debates are so frustrating bc I just don’t know how many people play certain hero’s and pay money to those hero’s and if people played hog, doom, rein, etc quit after they were nerfed. Personally for me as a dps genji and tracer are very frustrating to lose on but extremely satisfying to win with bc I feel like those are characters based around skills. Idk if you feel that same in comparing tanks like that? I totally agree that the visual clutter was more by accident (other than reduced shields) but point still stands that on maps like kings row, first and third point dorado, third point Havana, third point Route 66, third point blizzard world, most if not all maps in control I think the experience would be far worse. I agree that ow 2 is much more popular and I actually might be more optimistic about player number staying high or growing. Obviously tho I have no clue if players are leaving or why. I’m a lot less hard on devs about players bc I feel like a lot of the new players will always get bored and move on to a new game and there is no way for ow to out compete all new games coming out every year. Idk what the way generate hype and buzz is, but personally I want a ow arcane. Any ideas?
@@Johnsmith36346 The thing is, im not that Optimistic they make it as big as it once was again. 2016 - 2017 OW was the Game for Competitive Multiplayer Then they kinda just let their Game of the year die by putting to much into the OWL and making OW2 instead of making OW1 F2P and live service, they wasted all the OW1 Hype because they didnt want to hire more devs back in 2017 OW2 was their 2nd Chance, a few million people watched the beta on Twitch, it was big again but only for a Month If they instantly added 10 Heroes, 2 Modes, 15 Maps, Tournaments, Clans, etc. then maybe it would have made a bigger Impact But we just got 3 Heroes, 5 Maps, a worse Ranked System, No way to level your Account, F2P players cant get a lot of things, etc. OW2 on release was honestly horrible, the OW 1.1 meme was real Dont know how they can recover, id say 1. Give players atleast 500 Coins in the BP, you should get back some of the coins you bought the BP with 2. Add back some kind of Acc Levels where you get rewards (Hero Mastery Level is cool and all, but i dont get a cool border or rewards from that) because what can a player do after completing the BP? Nothing, nobody cares about level 200 titles, but just letting people get rewards incentivises them to play 3. They gotta fix Counterswapping, so i myself hate 5v5 with a burning passion so even if they fix that i wont come back, but other players might so they need to find some way to fix that 4. Its a fucking joke theres no Tournament mode, like i take League of Legends for example, you have a Tournament once per Month where you can select 5 Teammates and play 3 Back-to-back matches, if you win all you get some cool rewards, but its also just fun to play Tournaments and OW not having that is ridiculous 5. One thing out of their Control that would help is better Content Creators Look, emongg, flats, KarQ, etc. might all be nice people, but they are snowflakes and thats not entertaining Gaming Culture is often toxic, but thats also entertaining, id rather watch XQC in 2017 have some worse mechanics but make me laugh by arguing in Voice chat, then watching flat just stomp some kid but having a boring ass personality We had XQC, Moxy, Dafran, TimTheTatMan, MoonMoonOW, etc. who all were entertaining, but they all also werr a bit toxic but they pulled lots of viewers with that and that madr positive waves for the OW community So yeah, OW2 Content Creators suck imo I could go on, but imo they need a miracle to save OW
@@heiko2255 eh I agree with all of that but idk if lack of xqc matters too much. Like ow made xqc not the other way around, he wasn’t popular then he made ow popular he became one of the biggest ow content creators then moved on when Jeff and old devs decided to leave the game in shit state to make some dumb pve for no fucking reason. But again I don’t know if you can capitalize on hype by anything other than making money, especially when once the max number of people bought the game that’s it for revenue. Idk about tournaments bc I hate any extra delays to my game play. If I had to make a team of any extra decisions before a game fuck that mode I’m not playing. Again I get twitch is much easier to see but I don’t think twitch is the end all be all when comes to how well a game is doing. I also am a lot more skeptical on whether or not big patches and new maps matter that much. Also idk about u but I hate new heroes bc all these fucks play these hero’s in my games and it gets boring. Also I just don’t like having new heroes that much. Maybe pve works but whatever the case they need a lot of money from Microsoft to bring back attention. I really love the reversal of the competitive system back to ow1 coming in season 9, but i highly doubt anyone that isn’t a hardcore player like me will really care. I personally don’t think you ever hit the same level twice especially since blizzard ruined its reputation with the sexual harassment case. Cyberpunk is great game now everything they said it would be back in 2018. But that doesn’t matter now, and even with a anime and celebrities like idris Elba and Keanu the game will never hit the ceiling it could have. On streamers more tho one problem I do have is that the devs should own ow news. None of this communication through flats or emongg, use the ow TH-cam and twitch and have someone become the new Jeff Kaplan.
I liked the debate but at the same time it was really tilting to hear some of the arguments being brought up so often. I think this could've been easily avoided by either refuting them fast (that's on sam & hawk) or just setting a scenario in which the debate is happening, such as you did by saying "this is about 6v6 role lock and not goats". I would've wished for people to consider all the new content that came to OW2 5v5 more and consider this amount of content in 6v6 too. It was brought up at some point when they talked about JQ as a good Tank design but wasn't discussed enough i think. You can not by any means compare 6v6 at the state of double shield meta with the current 5v5, that is not a fair comparison considering that the game was abandonded without any new content for like 2 years. People needed to be reminded of this more often i think. Any time jake would argue about more diversity in OW2 i was immediately thinking: yeah no shit sherlock, you have more heroes overall in the game that in itself will make it more diverse. Combine that with the need to counterswap on the tankrole and there you have it. I felt like this argument was brought up way too much for it to be kinda meaningless. Another thing that didn't feel fair was: dismissing hawks argument about the tank matchup being boring bc hawk himself is "an outlier" in the matchmaker and arguing as if this would not be the case for the majority of the playerbase. Pls just talk to people. Nobody wants to queue Tank. If what Hawk is saying is not true or applies only to him, what are the reasons for other people not to like tank? and really what makes you think that they will be able to fix that for the average player, when we had like 12 patches by now and it only got worse? I liked a lot of this debate but it ultimately came down to Hawk saying "tank was more fun in OW1 and we could've fixed double shield" and then jake or AVRL saying "no we couldn't fix balance in OW1 bc we say so but we can fix it in OW2 bc we say so but we have zero evidence for it in 6 and a half seasons of patches"
Really felt like Jake had little or loosely connected reasoning for a lot of his claims and when samito and Hawk would point them out Jake would just say he disagrees and state the same argument
They also used a weird counter argument in 6v6: something along the lines of "forcing you to play the right tank" to create these op synergies bc if you don't it's an auto lose. This in itself is a very high elo argument and if you dismiss hawk with a snap just like that you need to also not let this argument count, bc in anything below masters-gm it#s just not a thing. It doesn't apply for the majority of the playerbase. Yes games were full of hogs and it was cancer to play with but that was (as it was mentioned) a priority pass symptom. Realistically in anything below masters any comp was viable. One guy trolling, or not picking the "right" character is not an argument for or against any gamemode. you have that happen in OW2 all the time as well. arguably they even have more impact in OW2 but then again you also have more impact yourself, so technically it cancels each other out
@@Munez7people play Hog because it's selfish pick that works on his own. Ow2 gave us more tanks that are solo machines which would break the game in OW1. I agree with Jake that some tanks would need to be infinitely weaker in OW1 because other tank would cover their weaknesses and they would be busted as fuck. Ramattra is fine if he is solo tank. Same with Sigma or JQ. But give them strong synergy like JQ + Zarya and they just run you over. If I recall correctly even devs themselves said something like "going 5v5 gave us more freedom in designing characters" because if tanks can do everything alone then the only thing they need to worry about is balance around other tanks themselves. If you design with tank pairs in mind then they are oppressive in the right circumstances and complete shit in others. And those circumstances come from your own team, not what opponents run. Your own stubborn team may make meta tank garbage because they just play random shit
@@Harevald You are correct hog is a selfish hero but that wasn't why he was picked so much at the end of OW1. Everyone is forgetting DPS players didn't want long que times so just qued flex for priority pass, got tank and then picked hog because he is just a dps with more health.
One thing I think should have been addressed more is the fact that almost all hard CC was removed from the game as we transitioned to OW2. I believe a lot of the people saying 5v5 fundamentally 'feels better' are actually just enjoying the lack of constant hard CC (though its slowly coming back). We don't know how ow1 would have felt if they reworked flashbang, brig stun, doom punch, etc. I also think the support giga buffing happened as a premature overreaction to dive being unchecked by CC in season 1.
@@hambster9759Exactly, mei freeze doesn’t freeze, it has a slow now and halt got added to the horse’s ultimate and she ALSO got javelin. Brig has her stun in her ultimate, sigma has rock, and Cassidy has a slow and movement ability lock on it AND has tracking 🤡, so I definitely agree with you that CC really didn’t go anywhere.
CC in OW1 felt bad if you werent a tank or if they used 4-5 of them on a single tank in a row which felt like you had to use them all on the tank so the tank would die so you could continue past the first choke otherwise the tank would shrug the first one off and then get protected by the off tank and supports for most of the rest.
yes... we're stripping away variables to balance less parameters. The weird thing is, that they also added MORE passive abilities, MORE abilities in reworks (Sombra, Hog). I do not understand that they are not following through with that idea.
"You are basically always handicapped to pick something that synergizes with your other tank" So exactly the same as what happens in OW2 if you queue tank and your supports dont pick things that synergize with eachother? So its just a personal problem you have, when its you affected by its its a problem, when you just shove those problems onto another role it stops being a problem. This Jake kid is fkn clueless
@@josephreynolds2401 they all agreed that tank synergies are significantly more impactful than support synergies. If you watch the video they had a whole conversation about how you can make almost any support comp work fine and a hog ruins any tank synergy instantly.
@@DogeCoinInvestor yes it is. if you play tank and have zen/lucio and they have ana/kiri your life will be miserable. its the exact same thing just shoved into a different role
Supports *are* broken I'm so sick of people pretending they aren't. The only meta not defined by its supports was S1 rein Zarya: oh wait no that was unplayable if you weren't running Ana/Lucio We gonna pretend like Sojourn was broken? No: Mercy was broken Ashe? No: Mercy was broken Soldier? Nope, mercy again Bastion last patch? Nope turns out once again it's only a problem with Mercy Bap is the only reason Orisa bunker/double shield was possible. That team comp would be so bad if it had to rely on Ana/Brig as it's base supp duo Briggite literally reformed the balance of the entire game around her kit and borderline killed dive as a playstyle, briggite existing started every single problem tanks face now as it made the Devs powercreep tf out of raw damage to make playing front-to-back more feasible because diving supports was no longer a reasonable win condition Lucio is only the reason why Rein and Rammattra have ever been oppressive Kiriko was the one who made roadhog broken, hog got literally no changes aside from a 1s hook cooldown reduction and some HP, but Suzu covered his only weakness and made him too strong, Pharmercy is the only way to play Pharah at high ranks The synergy between tanks; which as a class *all* have the identity of being close-mid solo carry bruisers with huge health pools and between supports: who enable that carry by replacing their health and giving them utility resources is ridiculous and is absolutely more potent than the synergy between tanks and supports on their own Supports have literally always been the problem and the only solution is that most dps in 5v5 need to be reworked to have *some* support capacity because as it stands they're like the youngest child with absolutely no true responsibilities and no idea what they're missing out on. Supports and tanks are really strong but it comes with a level of responsibility that often stops them from being fun or removes your autonomy, dps doesn't have this issue because the other classes are specifically overloaded with resources so that you don't have to take on that responsibility and can just single-mindedly *pew pew pew* If dps were designed closer to Mei, Sym, Soldier where their abilities have the capacity to support their team: we probably wouldn't have this issue where the classes feel extremely mismatched in terms of both fun and impact
6v6 would bring me, and the people i played with back to overwatch probably. 5v5 has brought with it a deeply unsatisfying rolling meta, less interesting comps, less interesting team fights. It just wasn't necessary.
I was a dps player for a long time in overwatch 1 and actually picked up tank late overwatch 1 in double shield and still enjoyed it more than dps cause that synergy was so good and fun. Now I hate playing tank cause it’s simply meta slave of the month. I went from one trucking JQ to one tricking dva or Orisa. It’s simply not fun and synergy is WHAT makes overwatch good.
Yeah! Imo tank was fun to play when it actually felt like the role was a . . . role. With only one "raidboss" or leader style tank, teamfight dynamics feel so lopsided and weird; I often feel more like a glorified dps with more responsibility/hp/damage. Tanks are often locked into kaiju battles while the other four are in deathmatchy wild west shootouts; it's so disconnected.
Holy the 5v5 arguments aged like MILK. They’ve tried everything except going back to 6v6 but nothings worked cos the games fundamentally broken. Tank has only gotten worse. ggs
15:55 oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes bubbled oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes litearlly immortal cause he got suzu'd No self-awareness whatsoever. The only difference between what he likes and what he hates is whether it is tanks or supports who get to decide whether the tanks can play the game or not.
Lets use a little logic, take the current game and go to 6v6, Both of these scenarios happen instead of only 1 of them, so tanks get even stronger with more characters added to support them. Therefore tanks have much more power.
Yes but the reason these supports were given abilities lime suzu and tp, and imo field buffs, if because of the shift to 5v5 and a want to make the characters more generalist. So maybe if we went back to 6v6 we could tone back some of the generalist shit that makes these characters unpunishable and make the game about positioning again instead of trading cool downs until somebody falls asleep at the keyboard and you get to finally make a pick
@@Acrux9now yes, because we got kiriko suzu and lw grip. These heroes didnt exist yet in 6v6. What should happen is create an "offtank" role, who can have no shields, and a "main tank" role who can. Then u can play 2 offtanks, or 1 main tank and 1 offtank, this fixes double shield. Everyone's stats get reset to how it was at end of OW1 (cuz tanks got megabuffed to OW2 and healing was pumped up), and immortality abilities get reworked. That's imo the way to restore this game to its former glory.
@@Acrux9if we went back to 6v6 now tanks would obviously be tuned down to the amount of power they had back in the days. Suzu and life grip should not grant immortality. There you go, problem solved.
@@psyonicvertebrae1717 no, splitting the roles would increase queue times even more, we don't need that, we already had Orisa's shield removed, double shield is LITERALLY ALREADY FIXED lmfao
I believe the reason everyone complained about double sheild is not because of the tanks, but because the characters playing behind the tanks became unflankable, so you had no agency after that.
6v6 was just more fun for tank. We can argue back and forth between which had more tank agency and variety, but in the end tank players had more fun in 6v6. They removed half of the queue slots for tank and the role still has the shortest queue time. Objectively, queue time should be twice as long as other roles if as many people want to play tank. Instead OW2 has less than half the number of tank players as support or DPS, and it's clear that the shift has gone to support which now has the highest queue time for maybe the first time in OW history. This whole discussion just seems like DPS players discussing which metas they hated the most. Tank players don't like OW2. Support is insanely overtuned now in OW2 after DPS was incredibly dominant for months. Tanks aren't interesting. Like Hawk said, JQ is the only tank that's been added/reworked that has any sort of skill expression. Doomfist was super interesting but they can't find a way to balance him. Ram/Orisa/Sigma are basically just the same character in terms of what they do, with each being slightly more optimal in different situations. "Tanks were left behind" is a copout - the devs KNEW they were going to 5v5 and STILL, YEARS LATER, haven't fixed the tanks that got left behind. They've even NERFED Rein, Zarya, etc when they were finally playable. The only fix is reworks, and that's the same as throwing some of these characters out, which means 5v5 threw away a whole role worth of heroes because of how bad it is to balance it in a tank/DPS/support setup. They can't have tank work in 5v5 and have it be fun. Ram/Orisa/Sigma is like the absence of flavor and they're so generic and similar that it shows how little design space there is now for tank.
The funny part is they just got the wrong tank player to be on the podcast. Hawk honestly is the perfect example of the tank players frustration but he's too emotional to make a cohesive argument.
Tf are you smoking to think support is the fastest queue? I played literally just yesterday and while Tank and dps queues were at 1 minute each, support was at 4 minutes and even reached up to 7 minutes@@phoenixtorment5735
In OW1 dps queue was 5-10 times longer than tank queue, support was 3-4 times longer even in plat. As a diamond/plat player, I no longer have any queue time past 3 min. Even their priority queue didnt change much.
Yep, you nailed it. Tank is just generally worse to play. Since there's only one tank it feels like you need to constantly perform or you lose. Having another tank player to work with just felt so much better than having to try to hold the team together by yourself. They're mostly looking at it from a GM/Top 500 perspective while ignoring 99% of the player base.
Dude, AVRL saying "I gotta finish my point" was the funniest shit ever!!! THE man that interrupts EVERYBODY ALWAYS, asking to be allowed to finish his thought … Gold
No lie I know that this won’t get seen or matter to the actual podcast but I’ve watched a couple of these not having Avril and liked them way better. He just comes off like an actual douche and just blows off anything people say and interrupt almost everytime. The part that’s lowkey pissed me off the most was how bringing up plays you could make with tank duos you can’t do anymore and he just try’s to bring up 4 tanks or 3 monkeys everytime like we are arguing shit that can happen in role lock and he’s like “It DoEsNt MaTtEr BeCaUsE yOu CaNt PlAy 4 MoNkIeS EiThEr BoOhOo”. Like I wish I could’ve slapped him lowkey. I started plat and was 3200-3500 for 6+ seasons as a rank main starting in season 4 and was 4300 from season 10 till the end and can say not having tank synergy is not “required” like he says in order to win. I had a fresh account when ball was released and went 9-1 in placements and had like 80% winrate to Gm. As long as you’re good at what you’re playing you can find out how to make tanks work. I had over 1k hours on tanks in ow1 and refuse to touch it after my placements in ow2 now
See, here I don't agree with everybody. I don't care about his wild takes (which many of i don't agree with, but that's the point of a discussion) as long as he is respectful and lets others finish their arguments. He has good takes, too, but i dont wanna hear them if another person needs to be cut off in the middle of their argument for it. AVRL is a grown man, I wish he behaved like that in a discussion.
Never understood the "the if x main tank you have to pick y off-tank" argument, because every other role is also like that, you don't play mercy lucio or anything like that on suport.
Dps always had freedom to pick whatever they want more or less. Your team doesn't suffer just because you want to play sniper and Mei. They only had to worry to not play shit dps that are easy to exploit by the enemy such as Junkrat Reaper into Pharah mercy. Pairing of pretty much any dps was more or less fine
Jake and AVRL also acted like it matters in lobbies below Masters to pick Tank Synergies. He completly went wild after someone said "It doesnt matter what Tank Combo youre playing in Gold" which is true, a like Hog/Dva could beat Orisa/Sigma in low elo, since nobody is really organized, i agree Orisa/Sigma probably gets easier value, but in low elo literally anything can happen.
@@heiko2255 EXACTLY DUDE, THEY JUST HAVE NO IDEA OR ARE TROLLING, I was bronze most of ow1, I was that super average or even below average player, and I saw literally any tank combo played, and they could all work, jake and avrl are actually just deluded (unaware) lmfao double shield wasn't even a problem in low elo
I don’t believe it is possible to make tank as fun in 5v5 as it was at its best in 6v6. The best argument they have is junker Queen is THE 5v5 tank. And junker Queen has not been playable for most of ow2. When she was playable, not playing a counter junker Queen meant almost certain loss. Jake seems to think counter swapping = fun healthy game. As a tank main, being stuck in a constant loop of rock paper scissors is a fun killer. And because there is one tank, if I’m countered by ONE person on the enemy team, I don’t have a second tank to cover my weaknesses. If the enemy plays Zarya and Zarya is any good, I go Winston to counter, the enemy goes bastion to counter me, now I’m fucked. I’m not allowed to play the game. I don’t see this problem as fixable in 5v5. In 6v6 I am not forced to switch just because of one counter. It takes at least two people countering AND my own team comp has to be bad before I cannot play the game and HAVE to switch. I would love to see a proposal to make 5v5 tank fun. Because I simply don’t see it as possible
@@GouFPS counter swapping (aka knowing which hero is the "funny hero") is NOT a skill and people need to stop acting like it's part of what makes overwatch fun
@@bambampewpew32 ya I really hate how the 5v5ers try and gaslight tank players. We’ve been getting fucked for too long as change after change only makes the role less fun and we’re supposed to believe it’s for our good
it’s so dumb to use double shield to argue against 6v6 when the new tanks barely have shield and we literally have one tank that punches through them and another that ults through them and antis everybody. Man… I would LOVE to see a main tank-Junkerqueen combo
@@itsbeeva Indeed. Double shield really became this ridiculous boogeyman people use as an argument without any thought put behind it. Double shield wasn't a 6v6 issue but a balancing issue and it could have been done away with in 6v6 environment as well.
@NanaHoneyB I'm someone who played ow1 and stopped playing because of the 2 tanks and long que times. Most of the people in the community today are people who didnt mind or liked 6v6. I think the 5v5 6v6 debate is currently pointless when the game struggles to get and retain new players. Should just focus on the new player experience.
@@PBNIP "stopped playing because of the 2 tanks" bro what?? Nobody even questioned the existance of 2 tanks until ow2 wym lmao Unless you didn't mean that
You can't blame 6v6 for this; the game was abandoned for more than 2 years. They could have focused on fixing the game, but they chose a lazy approach by simply removing one role, thinking it would solve all the problems, which actually had the opposite effect. Some people might argue that the state of the game is okay or better now, and it might be true, but that's because they've recently started giving attention to the game, fixing some problems, and making 5v5 work with the new system. I play almost every day, and in my experience, when I ask other players if 6v6 is better and if they want it back, almost everyone says 6v6 is way better. Anyone who argues that 6v6 was the problem and 5v5 fixed it is delusional and wrong.
I honestly think if they brought back 6v6 and maybe even some pro tank propaganda, we'd have tons of tank players (including me, and I was a dps main back then)
@@rickmich18I'd be curious to hear him articulate better. Samito also had this problem like 3 years ago when everybody was calling him nuts because his expressions were over-the-top. Twitter engagements be like:
Sam was making the best points the whole time, i already knew i prefered 6v6 but he brought some things up that i didnt even think about. And yeah its tragic Hawk is not a Streamer or Caster or older, he wants to say the right things but just cant put the words together. Still better than Jake though, who tried to make every point in favor for 6v6 feel like a joke by answering while laughing
@@heiko2255agreed. Jake really comes off as an arrogant person in this debate. Seems he values the sound of his own voice over being respectful and hearing the other side out. It really rubbed me the wrong way. Hawk just seemed like he was nervous and anxious, but not as arrogant and smarmy as Jake.
I see no downside to at least give 6v6 as an arcade mode. Tank went from my favorite role to the one I almost never play. Jake and AVRL make good points *at the top level* but the complete lack of teamwork most of the time at metal/diamond ranks makes relying on only one tank too reliant on one person. My friends and I actually really enjoy open queue (diamond in the comp mode) because we can do two tanks again but the tanks aren't as strong. If one of us dies, there's another tank there to help the team but they aren't a raid boss. I agree with Samito and Hawk that balancing was the problem not the 6v6 format. They also could've just made it where only one shield tank can be selected at a time. To AVRL's point, I'd rather have two 50% tanks than one 100% tank. Also Bap Immo is my least favorite thing they've ever added, pretty lame to negate an entire ult with a cooldown.
I agree, to much bad memory and selective memory. Just bring back 6v6 and everyone will see how infinitely better it is (provided they do a couple small changes to bring it back where it was, aka nerf queen shout a little and self heal, roadhog maybe getting his one shot back (dont remember if he had it at the end if ow1), ram getting higher shield cooldown / less health and all that maybe longer form shift time, dps getting their dmg back (soldier 20 dps, hanzo 70 dmg storm arrow, genji, etc) PLEASE put doom back as a DPS, he doesnt fit as a tank and was so unique of a hero. Tank fucked him. Just little changes like that, and everyone will see 6v6 was way better. There will be significantly less stomps immediately and once people get used to it again it will be very very rare to super stomp teams like you can now. As in your team will have to be SOOO much better to do that. Compared to now. Also make it a comp mode.
@@aerostrafe1075 Rolled, but not stomped. Its completely different. When you get rolled you can atleast get out of spawn. In 6v6 even if you were losing hard u always had a chance to win still or could atleast practice a hero without being spawn camped or looked at by 4 people because u had 2 tanks that can take the attention on them. in 5v5 that chance to win is completely gone unless the enemy team completely throws and you can't practice anything when you are being spawn camped, if you try to flank you get looked at by 4 people. If they add a 6v6 comp mode like they should, everyone will see how dog shit 5v5 is in comparison. Everyone is just gaslighting themselves about 5v5. Its a striped down game and its not overwatch. We only put up with it because PVE was going to come out and we thought all the heroes were going to get massive changes which DID NOT HAPPEN. Remember that. All false promises and now we are left with a game worse then the original in every fcking way.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin Stopped reading at the first sentence. I was just using rolled as the stand in word for stomped. I see no difference between the two words. You pretty much tried to explain to me the difference between the word "beaten" and "defeated" when both words are used in the same context.
@@aerostrafe1075 You know you are wrong, thats all you have to say. Theres a difference between getting completely spawn camped and losing badly. Learn to imply things. Roll and stomped dont have a 100% meaning what sounds worse? rolled or stomped? clearly stomped which is why its the worse of the 2. Stomped means you get completely stomped on with no chance, rolled meaning your getting rolled all over on but can still get up. So i was using it in that context, but you already knew that. but because you had no argument for what i said next, you try to strawman and bring the argument off topic. Typical tactic of someone with nothing to say. No defending your point so you try to drag me down to your stupidity where you think you can beat me but you couldn't even if i did (Which i just showed you). Btw ik you read all of this so stfu lmao. You gave to much energy and attention to this already.
Watched it on twitch, Samito and Hawk really echoed my feels, the game is just tasteless with 5v5 on tanks as a casual player 😥 - Really 5v5 just flipped a switch on this role for me. Where was Hawk hiding all this time in these debates?! More of him
Idk man. I'm a tank player and disagree. I have higher ups and perhaps lower lows too. But that is the fun of the seasons. Sometimes I can be on zarya, rein and sigma and slap people and show dominance. But 6v6 just gave extra people to blame and main tank felt horrible, low damage and high sustainability is boring af. Now tanks being slightly better all rounders make it a lot more fun for me
Honestly, I probably quit more because of 5v5 than anything else. I understand and respect peoples points.. but I just really prefer bigger team games, 8v8 is my preference but 6v6 was better than 5v5 for me. Respect and love to everyone who favors 5v5 but.. I really dont. I don't feel like I want to tank anymore because of it. >
@@Camikio wow. Interesting to see other views too 👍 for me it just bring balance so much more difficult. Standard fps games is no dramas to balance when abilities aren't so important. But with ow it was hard enough trying to make 6v6 balanced
@@spencerfrankel414 I know people continue to play the game and enjoy 5v5, but for me the soul of the game was lost with when 6v6 was gone. I am all for fps games as well, I play battlefield off and on. But OW has had nothing like it - especially tanking in OW 6v6.
This one was a bit of a mess, but there's a lot of great perspectives that came through. Really appreciate Sam's clarity in both not interrupting as well as trying to deliver his points within the context of what Avrl and Jake are trying to say. Plenty to comment on, but I think Hawk's point about them having abandoned the Tank Role long before they abandoned the entirety of OW1, was spot on. Junkerqueen is a good (not perfect) example of what an engaging Tank could be and for Jake/Avrl to say "she would not be playable in 6v6" is very disingenuous, given how balance/design in OW1 was largely pushed aside in an effort to re-vitalize the MMO that the Devs had always wanted to build (as we found out from Dev blogs this year). Tanks were not given any fair consideration post GOATS and, as time went on, Tank players left the game BECAUSE it was frustrating to play. Jake's point about "Tank has always been unpopular" isn't accurate either, because there has never been a concerted effort around their Balance/Design. OW2 then used the low tank numbers to make a shift into 5v5, pushing every Tank player left to be a Hyper-flex across 10+ heroes, further contributing to player burnout, invulnerability mechanics, and "Individual Impact", while ensuring all the responsibilities of 2 Tanks from OW1, would now have to be covered by a single player/Tank. That is going to produce triage of those responsibilities and will end up with frustrated teammates who want to blame their Tank for the responsibilities that have to be ignored. Appreciate these types of topics that are more targeted. Keep 'em up, mate.
A lot of good points have been made on both sides, but myself and most of the friends I have used to love tank (it was my favorite) in 6v6, but none of us want to do it now and basically draw straws for who has to - I have a good feeling this is a common occurrence in the community
I honestly hate AVRL in these debates. He seems like he has a big ego and is arguing more for winning the debate than for actually being intellectually honest. Same with Jake to some degree too though.
Find me ONE single vod of someone proposing removing a tank before the 5v5 ow2 announcement. It didnt exist. Thats just how dubious it is that people started shilling for it just to kiss the devs asses.
Lmfao for real dude like wtf I don't even consider myself a "dps player" anymore but I was a dps main in ow1, and I DISOWN THIS GUY lmfao, dps was more fun in ow1. Support was more fun in ow1. TANK, was obviously more fun in ow1. Bring back ow1 (6v6 because we'll never get that precious ow1 engine back :(
I was honestly a 5v5 enjoyer before this podcast and thought it was way better, hearing the arguments for 6v6 in this podcast changed my mind it does sound way better to me. I do believe we should have tried different balancing or reworks now. Playing tank I do feel locked to the flavor of the month or their counter otherwise I lose, which has completely ruined the role for me and alot others I believe. I think losing one roles enjoyment entirely makes the 5v5 argument worse unless balance or reworks are able to change that feeling.
The ultimate factual argument is still too few people queued for tank in OW1. This is the point Jake makes. Tank was on average much less fun to play - you see this in all games with tank roles. By making it 1 tank, that now can do a lot more, especially do damage and kill stuff - be a threat, it is MUCH more fun. By going back to 2 tanks in 6v6 you will have to nerf the tanks back into not being fun and too few ppl will queue for them. The positive result of removing 1 tank outweighs the loss of interactions between 2 tanks and the 'off-tank' role.
@@phoenixtorment5735 You have to account for OW1 being basically already on its deathbed when RoleQ released. RoleQ released August 2019, back then Qtimes were decent. It only got bad after OW2 got announced and blizzard stopped delievering content to the game. We didnt have New Heroes, Maps, Modes. No new patches to shake up the very very boring 2x Shield meta. And the biggest change OW2 brought F2P. Just the fact alone that OW2 is F2P, has new monthly content and a meta that isnt stale makes its playerbase bigger. The fact that Qtimes in 5v5 (where you need 1 less tank per team) as as worse as back then just tells us people hate tank in 5v5 even more. I 100% believe a healthy 6v6 with new content, new patches and all the content OW2 got, would have good Qtimes, because people liked playing tank back then way more, but the meta was just shit.
@phoenixtorment5735 OW1 tank sucked due to cc's. Plan and simple. There's also the argument that tanks just died if you didn't play perfectly; the exact same happens in OW2. Queue times were lower for tank when the cc's weren't around at the beginning of OW2. Now it's OW1 but you don't have your off tank to help you anymore.
@@highheart4300 Qtimes were low at the beginning of OW2 because we went F2P, got new content and the gamd felt fresh for the first time in years. Adding Millions of Players to the game does tend to lower Qs. Im sure many people had fun to play Tank and not have to play against/as Orisa/Sigma though so ill give you that I agree that CCs were bad in OW1, but a like Doompunch -> Sleep -> Hack Combo can still happen in 5v5, its less CC yes but youre also the Solo Tank who will have to take the CCs in without an off tank. Also, if 6v6 got the care it deserved, Sombra, Brig, Orisa all should have gotten a CC Reduction/Rework in OW1 Im sad that we couldnt even see what a well balanced RoleQ looks like because they release it and instantly ababdon the gamr for OW2. They didnt even bother to nerf 2x Shield, they had a Orisa Rework ready since atleast mid 2021 i assume and didnt add it to OW1 which would have made the game way more enjoyable
@@khalid5652ding ding. This guy remembers. God these top 10 tank players coping acting like people that arent gods at the role actually wanted to play it is hilarious.
Holy shit. I wish I was there. I would verbally annihilate these 5v5 stans. I always win the arguments I have with myself in the shower. (6v6 wasn’t better, 2 tanks WAS better.)
One of the core reasons 6v6 was better, is specifically because the game benefits from the strongest synergy being the tank synergy. Why? Because tanks are what establish the frontline, the team anchor, and through this you get order in the match. You have to respect that tank frontline, because if you disregard it, it will plow through you. This means everyone can't just run around finding their own 1v1's without having to be very calculated and skilled in doing so, knowing when to press and take angles, how to position, how to fall back etc. The frontline that tank synergy created, was singlehandedly what gave order to the otherwise chaotic nature of a hero shooter like Overwatch. This is where I disagree the most with Jake (and to a degree AVRL). Jake makes the example of Ana not being able to go into Winston's bubble and sleep him, because he is also bubbled by Zarya to negate cc. Why is that a bad thing? It's actually the exact opposite, it's a benefit, because it means that the Ana has to respect the range of Winston's leap, and instead of countering with basic ability use, the Ana instead has to learn good positioning and play in accordance to the threat level of a bubbled Winston. Forward to OW2, and the Ana can now give a rat's ass about positioning, because now there is nothing to stop her from countering the Winston no matter where on the map the Ana plays from - and this in turn means the Ana doesn't have to respect frontlines, angles, or anything of the sort unless it's a coordinated dive where she draws attention from multiple enemies, which is far less likely. So now the Ana has the freedom to just run around the map like it's a death match, not care about positioning, out-ability the tank trying to press her, and basically do whatever tf she wants. Now add this to every player doing whatever tf they want, and you get that nature of 5 1v1's happening every fight, which makes it more likely that someone does something dumb because there is nothing stopping them from getting into dumb situations due to the natural chaos that the lack of an established frontline presents. You're far more likely to run into some dumb rng outcome because everyone is just running round doing their thing regardless of what the tank is doing, because the tank doesn't really matter anymore. The supports matter, and the supports can not form a frontline. In OW1 you would always try to follow your tank duo wherever they went, because they represented such a strong spearhead that if you didn't follow them, you'd most likely get fucked by the enemy team. At the very least you would be following your main tank if the off is a Roadhog doing his thing. In OW2 there is zero incentive to follow your tank, because there is no exponentially strong spearhead on the enemy team to be afraid of. You can afford to be on an eternal flank as S76 because nobody can ever punish you for it to an equal degree of the value you're already getting. There is no off-tank to challenge you when you intrude on enemy space. At most you will find yourself in a 1v1 with a dps or support, leading to a 50/50 outcome that is chaotic because no side is objectively favored in any challenge, and this is why so many fights feel like steam-roll coinflips. You aren't incentivized to respect any particular force on the opposing team, so you just do what you want and anarchy creates chaos by nature. In OW1, the pre-fight exchange of abilities was actually a key part of why there was order, rather than chaos. It filtered out a lot of the rng outcomes associated with anarchistic gameplay, by having a sort of "forced" exchange of resources before hard impact is dealt. It makes things go from 0-30-60-100 in a gradual manner, also giving time to assess situations and adapt fluidly. In OW2 you don't have this transition, instead you go from 0-100 in an instant and there is no chance to adapt to rng, because rng now causes that 100% spike, rather than a 30% spike.
@@Real_MisterSir but we wouldn’t have, if it was 6v6 you would still have the boops and 1 more tank with CC spamming you down. And in a 6v6 environment with no cass/brig stun what are you gonna do about the 2 dive tanks? All of the solutions proposed for “fixing” 6v6 are half-baked and fail to consider the side effects, wether it’d be splitting shield tanks and non-shield tanks(splitting an already small tank player base), removing all non-tank cc(mobility heroes run wild), just gut tank abilities so having two of them isn’t as powerful(they’ll be worse/boring as standalone designs), these come with massive negatives. 5v5 creates a set identity for tanks moving forward: you are the big guy that nobody wants to mess with alone, you damn near need an army to take you down. This is more tuneable/balanceable than any 6v6 solution ever was. And also to even imply that positioning matters less in OW2 is laughable, in OW1 most of it was you sitting in deathballs spamming abilities at each other. Positioning is super important, you just have more options of where to stand to have an impact and make more plays. 5v5 isn’t perfect but as someone that played tank since I was damn near forced to because of queue times I’d take it over 6v6 any day of the week
@@why8642 Says who? Literally, says who?? If we were able to remove cc spam for OW2, then what is the barrier for acknowledging OW1 could have done the exact same thing with 6v6? The 6 player format shifting to 5 was not what made this possible. What made it possible was that the devs had been saving these changes for years because they knew it would add to the selling point of OW2 when it eventually was going to launch. There is a reason no major overhauls were made post role lock - it's not because they couldn't do it, it was because they chose not to do it, regardless of the team format. What stops dive is having equally balanced alternatives, like brawl, being viable. But brawl was the one most affected by CC because you had the limitation of moving your ass linearly from one place to another over time, whereas Dive could bypass this. Besides, Dive was the comp that took most skill to get peak value out of, it's one of the reasons hybrid and double bubble became go-to comps because they were easier to play, simple as that. Actual dive was already soft countered by pure skill check alone.
that’s so funny because earlier I was thinking “Blizzard will go 4v4 to fix the insane healing/immortality in the game before admitting that 6v6 was better and easily fixable compared to 5v5”😭😭😭 and then DPS or dualist healers would run absolutely rampant and they’d just have to make this Call of Duty🤣
I agree with Sams points. Its subjective whether you enjoyed 6v6 or 5v5 but in taking out that extra tank you took out flexibility and options in the tank role. From a casual players perspective barring "meta" I enjoyed trying goofy stuff with my friends and enjoyed seeing different combinations of tanks could do. I would argue with all the OW2 changes and addition of all the other heroes it would be a blast still. I think if anything removing a tank made it less appealing to casuals bc now that 1 tank has cover more responsibilities. With every other role the responsibility is split between two. I asked several friends who started with OW2 and most of them avoid tank for that reason.
The tank role doesn't need weenies in the role anyway. People that insist the role be made fun in OW don't understand the role in its entirety. It's the least understood role in and outside of OW. No reason to coddle new players by promising an easy to learn role. It isn't. People leave the role because they don't understand their function and THAT feels bad.
@@josephreynolds2401And this is EXACTLY why we have a tank shortage. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to essentially bear the responsibility of 2 players. It doesn't matter how you feel the role should be played, people have expressed they don't enjoy that kind of pressure and the numbers reflect it. This problem affects everyone, not just tank players.
@@Cms7899 I think both sides need to man up. Tank players don't understand their assignment and get by on HP and circumstantial factors. Support players want to not die, even though their role is meant to be equally as easy to kill as the damage heroes. Tank has always been lowest population in every role based game, don't try and deflect like the role is in dire straights. It needs changed, the devs won't fix the sticking points. I agree with this. What I dont agree with is role wars. I have quite a few hours on all roles. You've assumed that I'm on a specific side. Big mistake. Every time you make this mistake, talking about Overwatch gets dumber across the board. No need to be an algorithm warrior.
@@josephreynolds2401 I honestly don't know where you're coming from. First and foremost, this is a game. If it isn't at least modestly fun, people are not going to play. I'm not sure what assumptions you think I made. You literally called tank players weenies. How else am I supposed to interpret that? When top 500 level pro players that understand the game inside and out are complaining about the current state of tank, there's very likely an issue. Regardless of what your personal opinions on the matter are, the community is very divided on the topic and it needs to be addressed by the developers. Also, I don't know what you mean by algorithm warrior. I rarely comment on TH-cam and only do so to engage in discussion.
12:40 they said that tank synergy is stronger than support. Hawk says that support synergy is just as strong or stronger. Avril then goes on to confirm that these comps need tank synergy just as much as support synergy reinforcing and validating Hawk's point......does he know what he's saying?
welp it’s almost been a year and theirs still no light at the end of that tunnel. these 5v5 takes aged like fucking milk but i guess the future of this game is defined by people who say they don’t care about tank
Hearing Jake say “Just flank the Orisa and ignore” is probably the funniest thing so far. Once you flank the Orisa they have a Bap and Illari w/ insane healing and damage with 1 deployable immortality and 1 deployable healing bot to cook you. Proper 6v6 never had a chance to work because OW1 was basically a beta for most of it’s life. Double shield never got a chance to be fixed as they already gave up the game. There is also way less pressure in OW2 so snipers and supports can go crazy. And if they do get pressured your team is cooked because you have to split
Okay, but how does that change with 6v6? Oh right, now they still have literally everything you complained about, plus another tank to also stop you from flanking - as was literally their dedicated job half the time.
@@PrometheusXV ? You should reread what I said. I basically said saying “just flank” is stupid because the supports will cook you. In OW1 yeah an OT could but that would divide the front and create space. Now you try and flank the supports just handle it on their own. They can out duel pretty much any dps and when working in tandem are near unstoppable.
@@Gr0ot Support is two roles now dps and support. OW1 support could still have an impact but now they get as many picks as your dps. Tank is relegated to damage and is only as good as the supports behind you. Not to mentions the counter swap roulette that occurs in high elo. I can’t recall one match in the past 6 months at GM where the tanks haven’t swapped less than 3 times each (unless they were a OTP).
it was so tilting, that they did not immediately dismiss that argument bc jake was also talking about dive exclusively and comparing it to orisa who is a stale brawl tank. Felt relly disingenious to me
Man what has the world come to when Samitto is the most grounded, polite of the group. He has by far the best take on the whole situation too. As a DPS mostly player in a little bit of tank 6v6 was so much better. Constantly having to counter swap in overwatch two is infuriating. I literally refuse to play the game after a game or two. I didn’t mind having to pick synergistic charecters in overwatch one. That’s what makes this kind of game different from a typical Fps. There was a team death match game mode that you could play if you wanted anywase. I play overwatch for the team synergy and hero interactions. Overwatch two is just running around and see who gets the first pick. And as a gold rank consistent player double shield was never a problem for too long. Outside of the top ranks players aren’t gonna play orisa sigma cause it’s boring. Most matches. It was just Rinehart Road hog or literally any other random assortment of tanks because people play who they like. And it didn’t feel as punishing for playing the wrong tanks as it does in overwatch two because you weren’t so easily punished with a direct counter. But now in overwatch two even in gold the matchups, feel miserable to play against. If your tank is getting out dual by their tank, the game is awful. It feels borderline unwinnable. There was more room for error in overwatch one because you at least had two tanks someone could lift the load if the other one was slacking. And just naturally when you have more players on each team, you take some of the stress off the individual player. If I’m having an under performing game or an over performing game it’s gonna be evened out more so the matchmake is going to be better. It’s way easier to find a team average for balance the larger the sample size it’s simple science. And plus the supports felt way more Kilbourne overwatch one and they do in overwatch two. Supports are obnoxious to duel against because they have 1 million tools to save themselves. I don’t know I can only bear to play the game for the first couple days of the season at this point. Just my thoughts grammar might be bad. It’s hard to check it on mobile and this was mostly voice to texted lol.
One thing i couldnt fathom why they dont think of is just make heroes like doom/JQ/Mei a dps like hog back then. A tank cant have speed buff/hp boost ? make her a dps lol
Supports should have tools to save themselves. In fact, this is another issue with 5v5. No peeling from a second Tank means it's required that Supports have tools to survive or Tank/DPS Q times will go back up to 10-15 minutes while Support Q times will be 2 minutes or less again. I'm sorry you DPS wanna cry because they can't just get free kills on Supports like the early days of OW2, but blame 5v5 for that.
@@MefoWhoI think the "tank can't have a speed boost" argument is dumb anyway. He couldn't provide an actual reason he just doesn't like the idea of having to adjust how he thinks for five seconds. We've got a tank who can deploy an instant 200hp onto anyone in their LoS and a support who can be borderline omnipresent in a teamfight with a 100% uptime speed boost, but god forbid you get a few seconds of speed from a tank CD
Blizzard should definitely make a legacy mode in arcade of 6v6, just though in a 2nd tank in there and see what happens Never thought I would be relieved and excited for samito to start talking out of anyone he seems like the only one with well thought out constructive things to say When they are defending 5v5 with the fact that u were tied to ur tank duo for what u pick it is worse now in 5v5 because u don’t get to pick what u want it is ether pick the 1 meta hero or be counter swapping constantly I think a lot of why they defend 5v5 was with orisa but now that she doesn’t have a shield I think nose of there arguments are really valid because balance changed that 19:02 that shows support power creep not tank being op 41:15 tank definitely feels way more like don’t make mistakes because idk how sitting at a corner not doing anything only pressing buttons when you need to definitely doesn’t sound like making plays to me 45:42 I think if 2 tanks jump on one person then they should be able to win that and the tanks job is to take space so if you are a tank and you jump on something and you don’t pose a threat for them to respect you and you just die then you can’t do your job and you feel hopeless and powerless 1:23:48 junker queen would fit very well in 6v6 she would be like a more team based roadhog and I think it was emong I could be wrong that did a custom game to make it 6v6 and said it was really fun and he makes and aoe speed sound like this crazy different thing like Lucio never existed 2:15:18 me as well
That change needed to happen because they lost a tank. It's not power creep of support. If the supports had their normal OW1 healing than the 1 Tank would explode from 5 people beaming them down. If you're sitting at a corner not doing something then you are playing the wrong Tank in that scenario. Unless sitting at that corner is causing the enemy to be scared of your abilities. The issue isn't that two tanks jumping him shouldn't win. It's that there was no gaps to create any value because the Tank synergies prevented that. Junkerqueen COULD fit into 6v6 but not as she is now. She'd have to be heavily nerfed. OW2 JQ put straight into OW1 with no changes would make her disgusting.
@@Flunksqk each one cherry picks what balance adjustments they want to implement so it's really hard to gauge from a balance- -fun perspective and every. . . single. . . time i've tried to play one of these, there's never 6 players on each team for more than like 8 seconds. This makes it impossible to experience a complete 6v6 game this way.
@@ReaveIdono so you are saying that supports are stronger because the loss of a tank but that is still power creep And I agree that at this point in the games balance if the supports has OW1 healing tanks would explode but that is the problem all damage and healing numbers have gone way up and continue to go up that’s why tanks explode so it is way less in your control but I’m not shire what change you are referring to that had to change Your 2nd point is that I’m not playing the game right but that’s all you can do if you have watched to contenders matches they would wait so long before making a move because it is so easy to get punished for just trying to move forward and I also want to introduce you to my friend flats a top 500 player that is constantly saying this is what is like Your 3rd point I’m not sure what you are trying to say by you can’t create any value in any case it is a skill issue but from a tank position that is the value in denying value and creating space forcing you to back up and it will only happen if you are well coordinated and that is just called making a good play in a dps and support perspective you should need to respect the space a tank is occupying unless they are out of position and or have no cooldowns Your 4th point how would you know for sure she would be discussing in 6v6 she was never in it so there is no way to know for sure if she would be that crazy but if she is simply tune her back when it comes to what I’m assuming you think is so broken her shout because of the team utility but tuning characters back or to the 6v6 format would not make anyone loose their identity
@lancestief1358 It's not power creep. Power creep is when supports such as Life Weaver keeps getting buffed till his target of healing is nigh unkillable even though he was fine after his 1st buffs or so. A change made because the overall design of the game changed, such as removing a tank character whose AOE damage denial ability is exponentially more effective than boosted heal numbers, is not power creep. It's adjusting the healing numbers to account for that. Just like they adjusting the health pools and tank abilities to be able to main tank. If you're not in a contenders match or in a game with Overwatch league players where everything is being played as optimal as possible then there is someone on the enemy side making a mistake. You just need to either discern what that mistake is with your character. Or change to another tank to force a mistake. But also holding space is the point of a tank. If anything in that scenario someone on your team isn't doing their job as best they could. What I'm saying is, it's not a skill issue for Jake when two tanks denies so much space that your only option is to stand behind your ally tanks and hope the enemy tanks are bad at cycling their damage mitigation skills. There's no room allowed for a DPS or even Support to push up or take a flank angle using the geometry to try and express their skill with their character because Dva is there to deny it with Matrix. I barely play her and my team has never died to Flank High Noon or 76 popping out of nowhere and using Visor because I can mark them easily with very low skill required. With 1 tank. If I draw her in with a flank Visor. My team can capitalize on her not being on the front line and kill her team. It not just her shout that would make her over tuned. It's her healing she gets from bleeds. It's her damage potential. It's her displacing potential. It's her ability to prevent healing with her Ultimate. A character like that should never be in OW1 as that's far too much value at any numbers point to also have another tank that offsets her weaknesses and adds more value to her that ramps up exponentially depending on how the synergieswould work with cool downs. The simple move to 1 tank has allowed them to go crazy on abilities with JQ and for her to not feel u beatable. At best she could have been a glass cannon Tank with 175-225 health if all those abilities would remain on 1 character.
I’m very aware of trying to avoid viewing things with rose tinted glasses, but 6v6 seems better in just so many ways. There can be more variety in metas and more tanks can become more or less viable at different times, rather than pretty much just Winston all the time and some of the new tanks. Some of the old tanks like Dva and Zarya just feel kind of awkward and very niche in OW2, so much that their play time, at least in high end competitive play, looks like it will never be very high unless they get buffed way too much. Also the synergy between tanks like rein and zarya and Winston and Dva are sorely missed, with tank now feeling like just a big dps that is mostly a bullet sponge. Not sure who brought it up, but with tanks having more HP, and often both supports just spamming heals into that ONE tank, it’s weird bcuz a sometimes optimal way to play is to just ignore the massive tank in order to focus on other more squishy targets, even more so than in OW1. With the way 5v5 is, it seems like all future tanks are going to have to be built as generalists, which IMO will lead ranks to just feel like more of the same, they can’t experiment with much bcuz all the tanks have to self sustain, do at least mid range damage and have similar ultimates. Ram’s ult is just so lame TLDR Tank is just not as fun, there’s no synergy and it seems like the range of actually viable tanks is actually lower in 5v5
Is shooting at a high health tank that has been bap lamped, suzued, heal dumped, or life gripped not also a doubled or tripled shielded meta? We still get long q times for a 10 or 15 minute game. The tank is either unkillable or is being hard countered, abilites like suzu, imo field, and life grip are saving even more poor decision making plays whilest encourging poor decision making plays. At this point i only run 6v6 with my friends. Its sad to see this state of the game compared its launch or october of 2020.
the thing that samito gets that avrl and Jake don't is that 5v5 removed the thing that made overwatch the game we all fell in love with. it's not even close to the same game, and samito is the only one who is accurately explaining that 5v5 is just straight up not as fun as 6v6 was
Im part of the 5v5 crowd, i havent watch yet but having AVRL and Jake gives me no hope, AVRL trys to be objective with subjective takes and jakes need someone to check the cocking
AVRL tried to communicate a single point throughout the entire video and got a heated response that didn't address what he said at all. So he said it again, made the other dude mad again. He's right and he should say it.
@@Glizzyman those of us that played 6v6 don't want double-shield back. There is a simple solution though. Bring back 6v6, split tank and support into main and off roles, and add hero bans.
I just had this thought, but if Flats was brought into this specific debate, it would have been funny as hell. Because he wouldn't be on either side of Team 6v6 or Team 5v5 in this debate. Instead, he would have interjected at each moment that tanks were mentioned just to get his feelings & woes out there, as if it were a therapy session.
I find it funny how AVRL and Jake are talking about how ridiculous it would be to have to rework tanks to fit into overwatch 1's 6v6 format and risk "losing their identity. You mean like we did for 5v5 ??? lmfao (where countless casualities have occured in terms of identity) now we are even at a time where they are talking about reworking a fan faborite character like rein as if rein is the problem... These people are insane😂
Going through this podcast, they each listed out every single complaint I had or saw from the general players within my matches, during OW1 & during OW2. Watching this podcast made me feel like I was reliving the days I would thoroughly describe the issues of OW1 during every major phase of the format or during major changes of heroes, on the forums. Team 5v5 & Team 6v6 were literally using every issue I came up with, as an argument against the other, when in reality, each of these problems cannot be looked at as a whole, but rather as individually isolated events. Each change, in the moment, were made with the purpose to solve a problem that the broader player base had in the game. (Even if I was alone in the camp of "these changes to remove the particular things are bad, & there are better solutions I have presented".) - - - - - - - - - - - One thing I have learned from posting all these issues onto the forums back in the day, that everyone in this podcast episode mentioned, is that "in the moment of the problem" if you claim that there are solutions to that problem & also present a solution that seems fair & potentially keeping the fun the hero in question of that particular problem, then everyone will deny your solution & demand for that particular hero or entire role of heroes to be straight nerfed, without even batting an eye to the "level of fun" that is being removed from just straight nerfing the hero or entire role. Even though that's the OW Forum experience, I would come across many players in-game complaining & demanding the same things, whenever they end up playing against or with whatever is the problematic thing in that moment. Then, after those changes that the player base demands go through, some of those same people (along with new people popping up) start complaining about how the game suddenly feels less fun to play. And a few months after the change, they claim that the change wasn't needed & blame the dev team, whenever those particular changes were demanded. - - - - - - - - - - - - At that point, I always think to myself, "you guys are fighting the fight when it's too late. You guys got what you asked for, and now we all suffer a less fun experience after each change, in terms of the player dynamics of how teammates will bring value, from match to match." Literally, from every nerf to every major game change that took features away, they all had solutions that would have reduced the pain points of OW1, while bringing new way to have fun with the same heroes, in the same format, when speaking of each particular problem during each format change. (Though, I'm not gonna lie, every post launch hero in OW1 made the game feel worse to play, as they were straight hard counters to high skilled heroes. Brig, Moira, & Doom being the biggest offenders, as I saw so many players in my matches & outside of the game complain about being easily killed by them VS. how much effort was needed to just survive against them, during their respective releases.)
I fully agree that every new hero they added somehow made the game worse in one way or another over time. - Ana was buffed too soon and too far - Sombra was a shitty concept from the start - Doom's kit was going to create problems no matter how you balance it. - Orisa needed an entire rework to function in a healthy way - Moira was made to be the most basic entry level possible so overall she is stuck being meh. - Brig was made as an answer to a problem that needed balancing and not a new hero to stomp it out. - Sigma should never have had a shield that flexible with the other tools in his kit. His shield should of been like Rammatras - Wrecking ball is a bit niche but its ok. - Echo is the only one I have no real issue with.
@@nufcjoker9057 Jake, maybe. But AVRL was right. When you start going down the "the playstyle that was lost" arguments, that basically applies to ANY change to the game. Especially big ones like Role Locks, Hero Limits, etc.. It sucks that Rein/Zarya and Winston/Dva play was lost, but at the same time, so was the Sigma/Ball and Double Shield combos that people absolutely despised.
@@crownysuccubus1524 The way i understood Sam's argument tho was, that there is now an archetype Tank Playstyle and Any Tank deviating from that Archetype is basically fucked. Sure You're now free on DPS and that's very fun but you are now even more caged than before on tank, to be that frontline. Ball is basically unplayable not only bc of cc but also bc your Team loses by default for nto having a frontline Tank. Even THE Dive Tank Winston is playing much more brawly in todays OW2 environment. OW2 is oppressive in forcing it's Playstyle on to you and we lost all room for creativity bc any time you get creative as The one Tank that's left your entire Team suffers for it.
Majority of the community was in large agreement that role lock needed to happen and even that wasn't lost cause no limits was still in arcade if you prefered that. we don't have 6v6 anywhere in official matchmaking outside of custom games. @@crownysuccubus1524
I think the 5v5 side loses a lot of legitimacy by insisting on the “optimal play” of tank synergies in OW1. How often does that happen outside of top play? And that’s nothing compared to how easy it is to get value from 1 tank in OW2 without playing optimally. You just spam CDs. Tanks diving the backline in OW1 had a response in peel, so the whole getting run over argument is overstated. Finally, you can for sure get most tank combos to work again outside of top play. Focusing on that aspect is short sighted. The game had fewer tanks, the off tank role was not balanced properly, and at least it required skill in most metas (double shield aside).
Exactly, the large majority of games in overwatch 1 were not optimized, because that’s just how it works. People play what they like and what is fun, and if what they think is fun is a shitty tank duo it’s gonna happen
Personally I find it hard to defend 5x5 personally. Thinking the devs can fix the tank balance in 5v5 but not 6v6 is a joke when they don’t have a PvE mode to worry about anymore
5v5 was symbolic. It did absolutely nothing to fix core issues but made a big show out of sacrificing off-tanks to the sun god and acting like that did anything
From an OW1 main tank player's perspective (rein, winston, and sig): Whatever may be better for the health of the game, I have less fun in OW2. The reason for this is because I can't duo tank. Duo tanking was so incredibly fun to me and I don't think anything came close. The synergy required in duo tanking required great comms, which I was completely fine with. Playing rein with my zarya friend, or winston with my dva friend, etc. was the reason I found the game fun. Combining abilities and synergizing was why I had fun. In OW2, there are very few times when I feel like my tank matchup is fair, and it's not just because of tank balance. Tank has genuinely turned into a game of rock paper scissors, where counterswapping is necessary or you are just throwing. And the occasional match where me and the other tank stick to the same hero, it now depends on who has the more supporting healers. If either one of us has certain heroes or doesn't have others (such as having a mercy when the other team has main heal zen or double main heals), I feel helpless.
Bro 5v5 defenders like AVRL and Jake are more stubborn. Sam and hawk are brining up valid points. But they’re just ignore all of them lmao. 5v5 is already a year old and still proves is can’t be balanced.
Tank synergies were too strong/important. CP: They were also the most satisfying and fun When one tank picks X, you need to pick Y or Z to actually go well together. CP: In OW2, either there is a tank so oppressive that not picking it is nearly throwing, or your opponent picked X so you can either play X for the mirror or play Y to counter and otherwise you lose. If they divide tank into main and off tank they can prevent double shield. The only problematic one is ball because he is so fluid between those rolls. 😎 (yeah I know, "roles") I get there could be queue time issues, but we already have them. We have had them. When have we NOT had them?
Just annecdotally from my OW1 experience, the ratio of OT to MT would be like 3:1. And that's not even taking to account how few tank players there are to start with. Queue times would go THROUGH THE ROOF.
I don't agree with Jake saying tanks have specific synergy that works. That's really only at the highest levels, you can play any 2 tanks in lower ranks even Doom + Ball
Ow2 is a pure money grab. They made it 5v5 so they could call it ow2 and impliment this new crappy payment system for battlepass skins etc. Ow1 was way better.6v6 is better
Jake and Avril intentionally ignoring the argument, interrupting and being insulting at points took away from the debate. Acting like 6v6 was unfixable when they diverted 2 years of dev time for ow2 is insane.
Lmfao for real dude I can literally just feel it with the points he uses and how he says tanks weren't killable in ow1, like how tf are you gonna say that?? Most dps just had straight up higher (damage) numbers, soldier, reaper, genji, bastion etc, AND TANKS HAD LESS HEALTH and dude omfg him saying 'a winston dva jumping an ana is broken she can't do anything' is the most braindead shit I swear he's either secretly silver or has never paid attention to what goes on with his team, the ana can get away/live with lucio speed, moira healing, zen orb, mercy beam, like dude it's not like the ana is ALONE, or is just gonna sit there and take it up the ass??? Lmfao oh my lord these guys are braindead
If u actually think u can play what ever u want in low rank and not get counter picked then it really just shows how disconnected the high ranked players are from the low ones
I used to be a hardcore OW1 player and now I only play very casually with other friends and we're never in comp. Samito is 100% right on the casual's players perspective throughout the debate, on pretty much everything. We all loved the fun team comps we ran and made it more flexible for everyone's favorite play-styles, and even if we lost, it was still enjoyable. I wish they listened and believed Samito more there in-terms of the benefits to the common player in 6v6
99% of Overwatch content creators have no clue what lower level gameplay is like. It's been an issue since 2017. When the game first came out, these high elo biases weren't prevalent yet, but after a year, it was pretty much consensus that anyone below Masters was just playing the game wrong, and should be ignored entirely. I've heard from more than a dozen high elo creators that "if the game is balanced for top level, it'll automatically be better balanced in silver and gold." Several patches have proven this absolutely wrong. Remember when Reaper was an unkillable god in gold? I do. Remember when Moira got 5 gold medals every game in silver? I remember. Like Sam said, "Everything happens in low level games."
bro what??? thats nothing like my experience. Fun comps? Playstyles? I've never experienced that it's been "instanlock my hero" and like 1 person filling. started at silver now diamond. Pretty much exact same. I mean good for you, but I don't think "we all Loved" whatever you're talking about. TBH statistically, I don't think much of us have ever experienced that at all not to mention "we love it". Plus whatever random comp your team picks is compounded if the enemy picks a better one. I mean you can like whatever you want, but don't lump me in with that fantasy lol we DID NOT all love that.
@@ElmoRitter hahaha "we" means me and my friends, the majority of the player base who don't go posting online about the game every second. We would usually have one rando and coordinated our own hero's and abilities to play, and it was honestly frustrating when we lost, but it was so much rewarding when we won, that's why we kept playing. Matched coordination was exciting as a group, but not the same experience as solo for sure, if your team doesn't understand game mechanics. I just miss that level of required synergy between teammates. But that doesn't matter, majority of my friend's liked playing OW1 more than OW2, so Samito is still right. Also no statistic exists for this niche unless you're on a subreddit or something, which isn't a good representation of the entire player base who probably don't use reddit like that. I don't. Friends don't. So "statistics" don't work in this case. The internet is full of angry people who complain about anything and everything, so there's no balance between the loud minority here and majority of the player base. Sorry if your experience was poor in OW1, we should be blaming the CEO's lack of care, instead of the overworked developers who are forced to build and scrap projects at his whim. RIP devs
Best debate by far, regardless of what side you're on. I always enjoy a healthy debate done respectfully such as this one, thank you SVB and everyone who participated
All due respect for the guests on the podcast, I really liked this one. SVB truly is a goated host for keeping this thoroughly chaotic but very entertaining debate in check. However, I was disappointed that there was no talk about what 6v6 would actually look like in Overwatch 2, funnily enough considering how many hypothetical situations were raised. I'm kind of astounded actually as to how much everyone totally missed this point. There was lots of comparisons to OLD 6v6 vs NEW 5v5, but none of a NEW 6v6. Makes me wonder if comps running two tanks with a roster including Ramattra, Junker Queen, reworked Orisa and Tank Doomfist could have affected the Double Shield meta which everyone seemed to be reliving their PTSD mentioning. One of the cruxes of Double Shield - Orisa - is now gone (well, her shield is anyways), and characters such as Ramattra, at least in my games, can eat heroes such as Brigitte and Sigma alive. I was waiting with baited breath for this topic to be raised, being a 6v6 debate and all, and whether we should bring it back to a modern Overwatch, but it seems like much of this debate was seeming to lament on the past, about characters and patches that no longer exist. Hawk and AVRL so very nearly touched on it at around 1:29:00 and 1:34:00 respectively, and I'm surprised it wasn't expanded upon by the rest of the cast. This is just my two pence as a nobody plat/diamond Ramattra main who loved playing Hog and Zarya with his main tank best friend in the old days. It feels a little lonely on the frontline eating all of the CC and my best bud is now behind me struggling to adapt to playing Support and DPS since OW2's launch. Sometimes (often in my dreams when being slept by Ana) I wonder what it would be like with a second, MODERN tank next to me, but unfortunately the topic wasn't made. It would mean the world to me if this point was raised in the future, to hear a professional's take on what a modern 6v6 would look like. That's not to say I want 6v6 or 5v5, I'm not truly on either side - I kinda just want to gather different arguments to from my own decision. TLDR; I loved this podcast - I really did. But if you're like me and wondering what 6v6 would actually look like in OW2, you won't find an answer in this one.
![The Great DPS Debate [2024] feat. Jay3, Samito, Spilo & Deku](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t0Z5uYpNB80/mqdefault.jpg)
This episode was recorded on 07/09/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns!
The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb
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Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a
My American brain:
"Oh wow, July 9th?"
6 v 6 but 1 tank , 3 DPS , 2 Support or , 1 tank , 4 dps 1 support make it an actual FPS game.
No one ever mentions this didnt need to be just 2 tanks 2 dps 2 aupport. Overwatch could have changed it to something like that but imo too lazy so just removed player hero so 5 v 5 now
@@ZacharyTech7 In one of his final forum posts before leaving the company, Jeff K. said that they had tested single-support as a possible alternative to 1-2-2, but they said that it made too many games completely revolve around who killed the one support first. Tanks were more manageable in this regard because they were harder to kill in general, whereas if a fight starts with your Support being in the wrong place at the wrong time as a Hanzo arrow flies by, then that fight's basically lost already.
I don't mean this as a slight to your past content put this debate was the best one. A lot of good points on both sides that i didn't consider and well moderated, keep it up.
Nah dude. If you had a tank counterpart who wasn't great, you could sweat and make up the work and still pull a win. And those games were the MOST fun games, where you sweat and make up for your other tank.. And those were what, every 3-4 games?. Some games you didnt have to sweat, some games you both had to sweat. All 2 tank games were FUN.
It is NOT fun when you have to sweat like that EVERY SINGLE GAME. With 6 v 6 you could subconsciously count and be aware of enemy cooldowns and make plays by just playing the game. In 5 v 5 on tank you have to be switched on and consciously counting cooldowns 100% of the time. It's NOT AS FUN FOR TANK! IT'S F'CKING MENTALLY DRAINING AF!!!! 5 v 5 SUCKS FOR TANK PLAYERS!!!! BRING BACK 6 v 6 PLEASE!!!
Sincerely,
Gold/plat player,
PS: I loved tank in OW1. It was equally my main role to Support. Now in OW Too 5 v 5, my main role is DPS and Support. Tank is UNPLAYABLE!
DPS in 6 v 6 was amazing. You were a LION. Waiting to pounce and make your plays, and when you did the dopmamine hit was BIG! In 5 v 5 DPS play like Chimpanzee's (CoD games) and your plays feel meh. Dopamine hit is meh. A 5K in 5 v 5 feels about as good as a 2k in 6 v 6.
Brain chemistry folks. 6 v 6 was better for the dopamine, risk vs reward plays. Now in 5 v 5 its cortisol drips with a tiny wee little puny wee dopamine.
If there were 15 tanks to choose from in OW1, ALL OF THE ISSUE WITH 6 v 6 WOULD BE LESSENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Game released with 5 tanks and 14 DPS. Of course DPS queue would be 10000x heavier than any other role. You can't get bored on DPS with VARIETY OF HERO CHOICE!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention, in OW1, devs realeased LESS TANKS THAN DPS AND SUPPORT!!!! THERE WAS 3 NEW TANKS AND 4 NEW SUPPORTS AND DPS!! OF COURSE TANK HAS LESS PLAY!!! THEY NEEDED TO NOT RELEASER ANY DPS HEROES AT ALL AND CATCH UP TANK AND SUPPORT ROLES TO 15 HEROES TO MATCH DPSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with Hawk on this point: " low level players are hesitant to play solo tank in 5v5 because the team will blame you for every fight lost/won."
I've been playing tank in gold-masters (my main peak is masters in the current season Diamond 1 average) as well as support. I feel like I have 0 agency in the game whatsoever unless I play doomfist or zarya. Orissa just doesn't die, Rein just falls over, ball just melts, hog's useless, sig is okay, dva just gets rolled by zarya, and monkey melts.
THe most unfun thing about tank is the wet noodle you hit everyone with because of how much healing there is in the game. I'll run through two clips, melees, jumps, on monkey to kill someone because of how much fucking healing is in the game.
Couple this with enemy dps' ability to just lock hanzo/bastion/reaper/sym, it starts to severely limit what tanks you're able to play without just getting melted
@@noahodum9737 I don’t follow the wet noodle view of tanks. I can top elims and damage as Sigma, Orisa, Zarya, Ramattra, occasionally Hog. They are good at duelling supports and punishing them specifically, not just chipping away endlessly at the enemy tank. Damage heroes don’t have the survivability to dive a backline and kill through the support power. But the tank problem is the need to make space and coordinate with teamplay which hinges on what the supports choose to do. A lot of the time they retreat and don’t prioritise healing well. Goes for damage and support, but they don’t play corners well and get ganked from afar.
Agree! Tank players get blamed for everything. It so demotivation to play tanks in the lower ranks. Plus your tram never push with you yet you get blame for not cap the piint/payload
@@queenpen1398 Yes they have so much tunnel vision and aren't patient. Whole team can push with tank and sweep the fight, but all four of his teammates run away from a single enemy or won't push past lone enemy tank, leaving their tank to die, which they then call 'feeding' and the tank not playing with the team. Bros, just walk forward past the non-threat, to your tank that can help you, not backwards past three corners.
@@queenpen1398 Or OR just get better and learn the game. Who cares what your teammates think. Be the better player and you won’t get blamed. Focus on what YOU can do better instead of blaming your teammates.
if someone told me that samito will eventually be the most hinged guest on this pod like 3 years ago, i would've called that person a liar
but here we are
Is he tho??
@@TheDevos1 compared to the rest of the guests?
oh absolutely lmao
He is help…
@@RavageDionne yeah I got to the middle…
How is he the most hinged lmao, you are just an NPC who is wowed by seeing someone who set the bar extremely low, improve themselves. AVRL has consistently been more level headed, Jake is a more rare guest but also comes across as more fair and relaxed, and SVB is just doing his best to stay neutral as much as possible. I didn't hate Samito here, he did a good job, but come on dude. He just set the bar extremely low.
I appreciate Sam raising his hand and not interrupting. It's a little annoying how much other people are talking over each other and interrupting before someone even finishes their point
And thanks to SVB for trying to wrangle the conversation
Gamer moments...
Yea radnoms always give Sam crap but he's one of the most respectful creators out there when it comes to actually having a mature discussion, and showing interest in other people getting their points across in a fair manner.
Exactly!
Sam has never come across as rude or mean spirited to me.
sam is the only person here who understands low/average level play and alot of the stuff he brings up is dismissed far to much
FOR REAL JAKE AND AVRL HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT WAS, I was literally hardstuck bronze til the end of ow1 on dps, and I liked 6v6 10000x more, I AM that casual average (or below average lmfao) player (I'm plat now but still 6v6 is just better for overwatch)
i can't believe it samito is the most polite one in this combo. That's growth and i respect him so much for that
Moving on from OW does wonders to the soul😂
Yeah not playing OW for a month can make you a better and positive person😂
Im a 5v5 guy but the 6v6 clearly easily won the debate without any question, the fact that avril and jake are so impatience and unpolite is mind blowing , the facts that the want to monopolise the discussion without bring out good point is ridiculous and quite annoying!
yeah even as someone who didnt like watching him because of the more toxic environment its actually so refreshing to see him be so polite. my respect for him has gone up massively.
he still does streams so its not like he's completely away@@aniqzikry
it's like you can just tell samito's break from OW has done him a lot of good, he's definitely still passionate but he's also able to stay more objective in a lot of stances which i appreciate. glad to have him on the debate, and SVB was showing particularly excellent debate administration skills this time more than others in a lot of senses.
Only 2h into the video but I think something that isn't getting talked about here, a blind spot if you will, is what feels better to LOSE at. The 6v6 guys don't like being a solo tank, the 5v5 guys don't like anti-synergy tank duos, but which feels worse to lose at? I think Hawk expresses that frustration best -- being a tank main and not favored by flavor of the month SUCKS more than being stuck with a hog or ball otp as your off-tank where you can still try to make plays with them. 6v6 was more fun to lose at, as well as fun to win. 5v5 being more stompy isn't as fun as that.
I don't think AVRL or Jake talked about the "fun" aspect of the game. Sure, they can think the game is more balanced or whatever. But I would rather have fun on the game. OW isn't fun to me anymore, especially this season 6. This season was supposed to be the best, but I find myself playing it the least. I didn't quit playing the game, the devs made me quit. All of my friends quit. I don't know anyone who plays this game lately unless they are in college esports.
@@Mr_BucketHat as they said like 40 times, talking about very subjective topics like having fun is useless. They don't have the opinions of every player nor even the majority. What everyone can look (if Blizzard wants) is the data, something objective that everyone can agree on
@@LuigixD you are right. In my opinion, OW1 was more fun than OW2. I had a whole lot of fun initially, but the game has really died for me. There is a lot that I think needs to change, and they are certainly not going to be able to do it in one update, so I am not sure how long it will be until I finally enjoy it again.
6v6 felt like nothing happened until someone accidentally did the right thing. The fun part of ow1 was when no one knew what they were doing.
@@chpgmr1372 nope, I enjoyed sweating tf out of comp all the way through "dead" ow1, it was not anywhere near as bad as people were making it out to be, I thought they were all complaining too much (I had a feeling we were going to lose something very special over it, and I was unfortunately right..)
I miss 6v6. Tank is miserable right now, I win or lose, doesn't matter... All the CC goes to you, it is always your fault, and at certain ELO, Diamond and above if your team doesn't play around you , you HAVE to counter swap or play the META.
At least in 6v6 as pointed out, your other tank could fill the weaknesses or even work with the synergy, etc, more variety.
man, i Seriously respect SVB's ability to keep things focused and on track. im glad he's still cooking
svb is such a great mediator and talker
Samito bringing up DLC creep was the most understated argument the constant evolution of the game will leave older heroes in the past until they are changed.
This needs to be discussed more in the community. I’m sick of new characters having bloated kits that can do numerous roles. These dps supports have to go. Ironically, lifeweaver felt like a normal support and people hated him for that
@@Cruxis_Angel People hated his balance and controls for good reasons. No one worth talking to/about said that LW didn't fit the roster.
it's not really "DLC creep", it's more like support creep. Holy shit. Who thought that making all the supports busted overpowered was a good idea? Support is literally the easiest role in the game and the one with the most no-skill heroes like Mercy. Really sad to see that Blizzard caters to all the girls that buy skins
@@johnsonspark171dear God man i can smell you from here. Take a shower and speak to actual people
@@johnsonspark171 is there really as much support creep as people are saying? I get that they are strong now, but I think it has peaked, as you can see with the fact that they nerfed the support passive, and several of the individually strong supports have been nerfed Ana has been nerfed a few times, they just nerfed Bap, Kiriko has stayed pretty steady since they nerfed her months back, Mercy got nerfed, even Zen (who tank players really hate, which is funny because I barely saw him when I was diamond, and I see him even less now that I'm in high masters) was nerfed slightly, (and by that point he had already slipped in the support totem pole from his S3-S4 peak, due largely to the Ana nade nerf). Illari of course is strong, but she was only recently released and has already been nerfed once (and I predict another one relatively soon), but even with how strong she is, it's not as oppressive as Sojourn was last year. If anything, we are beginning to see creep with some tanks, e.g., rather than substantially nerfing Orisa who is too strong (and we talk about too much sustain, it wasn't nearly as much of a problem until they buffed Orisa), they buff her counter.
I think one thing they overlooked a bit too much is when they talked about tanks being strong or playable when the average tank player just wants the role to be fun again. Playing tank sucks and feels significantly more stressful to play than the other roles now.
exactly this, the main point isn’t even this balance stuff, it’s really just what’s actually more fun and playing tank in 5v5 feels abysmal sometimes
Yeah, playing tank as a casual player is just isn't fun.
Bro in top 100 console it’s sooo boring. You legit can’t push in unless you’re team dose something. You almost can’t make space alone and you only play super defensive to punish mistakes. So boring Zzz Zzz
i think the point is that it also sucked in 6v6, but the two tanks were more oppressive to all the other roles (which i think is a fair argument). Personally i don't like the rock paper scissors of playing tank. But i also didn't enjoy tank in 6v6 lol
I kinda feel the complet oposite! I came back recently to overwatch and climbed to diamond 1 (2 games to masters) simply because tanks can do A L0T!! I can counter their snipers with dva and ball, i can counter their orisa with zarya, i can counter their reaper with dva and zarya... Most people i see playing tanks are just locking on 1 tank and complaining that the team isint helping
5v5 arguements are to remove teamwork from a team game
wtf
Lmfao for real
It actually bewilders me that AVRL's point about tanks is that 'teamwork is too strong vs non teamwork' basically like what the actual fuck lmfao
(I came back to finish watching)
@@bambampewpew32it’s like TEAMWORK is the name of the game 😒
@@Da1Ghost which part is this? i might have missed it (also came back to finish watching lol)
Coming back to this video after the season 11 patch notes and listening to the 5v5 arguments is so frustrating. "Tanks can be balanced for 5v5", "If you didn't pick synergistic tanks in OW1 you lose, it's unfun".
"Tanks can be balanced for 5v5". No, they can't. It's been almost two years, tank is still the most underplayed, unfun, and most stressful role in the game and it's not even close.
No matter how many buffs they've stacked on tank, be it knockback resistance, headshot resistance, more health, more whatever, it doesn't matter. No amount of buffs stacked on a single role will ever fix the core issues of it.
For example, if you were running Hog Winston into Rein Zarya, and the Winston was getting too much value, the Rein might swap to Hog to counter. Sure the Winston might get pressured more, but the loss of frontline presence meant his Hog would have more space and be able to walk in and get more value. THE GAME HAD DEPTH. Now in OW2, it would be like instead of playing Hog Winston into Hog Zarya, it's more like playing Hog Winston into Hog D.Va. Because now in OW2, on tank you effectively get countered twice as hard. Since so much power has been shifted into a single role, you're forced to play 'Counterwatch' at EVERY level of play, no matter what.
I played tank with my friends for four hours today, you wanna know how many games the enemy tank counter-picked? Every. Single. One. The tank problem in 5v5 is not a balance issue, it's baked right into the game design. Oh you thought an un-synergistic tank duo in OW1 was bad? In OW2, if you have a Winston and the enemy team has a Mauga, it feels exactly like you have Junkrat Sym against a Pharah-Mercy.
Un-synergistic tanks duos were not a problem for the average level of play. I used to play all kinds of bad duos with my friends, and STILL had fun: Orisa Rein, Hog Ball, Winston Sig, Hog Sig, Orisa Winston. Even if we got rolled, at least we got rolled TOGETHER, and could still try to work together to win. Now, tank just feels empty and lonely, no one works with you and no one tries to help you. Best you can hope for is some heals or a nano so you can soak up more damage and more cooldowns for five more seconds, it's BORING. I don't even feel like I'm working with my team on tank anymore, they've turned the role into more of a meat-shield than it ever was in 6v6.
Also, I just don't understand the whole "tank synergies are oppressive" argument. The same argument can apply to literally every other role. Fuck I have Hog Ball and the enemy has Orisa Sig, we can't win! Tank synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW2 everyone let's remove a tank and move to 5v5. Fuck I have Mercy Brig and the enemy has Lucio Kiri, we can't win! Support synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW3 everyone let's remove a support and move to 4v4. Fuck I have Widow Reaper and the enemy has Genji Tracer, we can't win! DPS synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW4 everyone let's remove a DPS and move to 3v3. Fuck I have Sig Sym Mercy and the enemy has Winston Tracer Kiri, we can't win! Team synergy is oppressive! Alright, OW5 everyone let's remove all roles and just make the game Widow headshot only free for all.
To touch on playstyles a bit, they're basically non-existent, every tank is just dive or brawl. There's no peel-focused D.Va, tank-enabling Zarya, flanking Hog, or disrupting Ball. If you enjoyed those playstyles as a tank in OW1, people arguing in favour of 5v5 basically just say to you: "Fuck you, go sit on the frontline and take damage for me". All the tanks have been so watered down and homogenized that you could cut out half the roster and the game would basically feel the same.
Orisa, Ram, Queen, Rein, Sig, Zarya, Hog, Mauga: Low mobility brawlers.
D.Va, Winston, Doom, Ball: High mobility dive heroes.
Congratulations, we now have two types of tank to choose from, with a choice of slightly different flavours. 6v6 was like chess, and we traded it for rock paper scissors.
For background I started playing Overwatch a lot around 2020, one of the worst spots the game has had in its history. I was a high diamond Winston main/one trick who occasionally played Rein or Sigma. You'd think I had a horrible time playing main tank, and yeah sure sometimes it sucked, but it pales in comparison to the absolute joke of a state the role is in currently. Since Overwatch 2 came out I grinded to masters, then GM, then hit T500 playing only Winston, now I don't even want to play tank anymore, it's lonely and miserable.
So thanks Blizzard for ruining my favourite role in my favourite FPS game, but hey, with the way they've treated the tank role, they clearly don't give a shit or are desperately trying to slap band-aid fix after band-aid fix over an unfixable problem.
Anyway, rant over.
I remember playing 5v5 beta and being really bored and going back to 6v6. 6v6 synergies is what gave me the most dopamine when we were working as a team. Now it’s a chaotic death brawl there’s no teamwork synergies to be found. Genuinely what made 6v6 so disliked was the frequency of patches. And I guarantee you 5v5 was created to add reasoning for the cash shop.
same i went from playing 3hr daily to a few matches er day,its so infuriating
Same
EXACTLY, PEOPLE SAY ROSE TINTED GLASSES I SAY NAH I knew something was off even in the ow2 BETA
"Tank diff" is the thing you hear THE MOST after a stomp, that is all I have to say
no this is factually wrong in my expierence its 1. dps 2. tank 3. team 4. support
@@jordanstarr2992it cant be “factually wrong” if I and a LOT of others feel the same. Tank diffs dictate games, more than other roles because there’s only one.
If it's a stomp - it probably is the tank that's the problem.
@@noahodum9737 no, if you dont pick a certain tank and get stomped, its your fault not matter how good you play. Tank is just awfull to play
@@noahodum9737that’s more thank likely biased because tank diff is the most apparent.
Because dps/support diff to most people is just who has higher number.
Tank is expected to have the highest number, peel for the support, protect the dps, take/make space, deny enemy cool downs and so on.
Tank just has the most jobs so when your tanks getting beaten in them it’s super obvious.
I come from the future, every point that the team 5v5 said aged like milk, "We need to rework old tanks" yeah, we reworked Hog and now he has no weakness and hard meta, Ball is still ass to play, Mauga is either broken or dogshit. They gigabuffed all tanks, reworked the pasives and they still feel like shit to play. You cant make this up LMAO 💀
prob aged even worse as of todays patch omggg
So true
Especially now that the devs have even released a blog post talking about this very topic. The devs even admit that there’s really serious challenges with solving the tank problem in 5v5 so the “easier to balance” claim clearly holds no water whatsoever.
6v6 was worse
@@opywop18 irrelevant, 5v5 takes aged like milk.
I’m on team Samito on this one.
I think we all are, 5v5ers are huffing a lot of copium. It’s almost like they didn’t play Overwatch before Brig&Sig with the Devs not being able to balance their overpowered heroes.
@@daddykipperflipper4600 for real play it's actually NOT believable Jake ever touched ow1 before double shield it's actually insane
@@bambampewpew32when jake said that there are no supports that can win 1v1s vs dps😭
2:24:59 the problem is that jake isn't the only cringe tank player, it's like 90% of tank players at ALL elos. I've had people counterpicking me on tank from plat 5 all the way to gm1. When from the tank v tank matchup alone only 1/10 matches will be fun, lowered even further to like 1/20 by all the supps and DPS counterpicking you, it's just sucky. That's a fundamental 5v5 issue.
Its not just tanks counterpicking you either lol, its more like all 5 people on their team are sweaty enough to counter pick you, and your one trick moira genji and mercy start complaining about how you cant do shit against 5 people countering anything you decide to play. Tank is unplayable these days unless youre a virgin yourself spamming whatever broken ass tank they decided to buff for the current patch. Tank gameplay puts me to sleep and I used to love queueing flex, shame how miserable tank is these days
@@ironman1458 yea that's basically what I was sayin here (and in my many videos complaining about that) lol
@@ironman1458 While there were many elements I liked about 6v6, and why I stuck with the game through all the dark years, the fact is that they couldn't get people interested enough in tank.
As a good roadhog I get counterpicked in quickplay lmao it's just too easy to counter the enemy's whole frontline with one counterpick
@@wandregisel6385 I mean did they even try though?? Lmfao they only added 2 new tanks in THE ENTIRETY OF OW1, 6 YEARS, 3 of those being completely AFK from adding content lmfao, now we're actually getting cool fun tanks, but 5v5 sucks balls, we wanna play JQ dva, idk random stuff like that, so JQ can actually ult without being slept/hindered and instantly rolled
I think both sides make great arguments, but I just have to say huge props to Samito. He takes into account others' position and concedes on points when appropriate. Everyone on the podcast has strong feelings but it all stems from the love of the game and I think that's great. Very interesting watch and I hope any developers watching can take some meaningful information away from this.
Conceding on a point shouldn't be considered as a win. But I do agree with what you are truly saying. It's rare to see that these days.
@@Kanggaxx My apologies for the confusion. I meant that he was willing to concede on points that he thinks is right. He's not arguing just to win if that makes sense. Samito is open to the opposition's point of view and makes his own judgements after the fact, not beforehand.
@@Kanggaxxwell he did win eitherway, 5v5 is 6v6’s problems but worse. “Flank the orsia” LOL like does jake even play the game? Yea like flank into 3 kids looking at you with 1000 immortal abilities while the orsia infinitely stalls point until you you die from the 3 people looking at you and then your tank has 5 people shooting him and he dies gg. Either that or you sit there shooting a unkillable tank forever til someone makes a mistake and you kill them or until they win. 5v5 is double shield in a different way where as 6v6 would be fixed right now with all the new changes.
Yeah this discussion ultimately went nowhere because everyone was plat-chatting and decided each other was wrong before they'd started speaking
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin LMAO EXACTLY, 5v5 is literally double shield under a different coat of paint
The defence for 5v5 just sounds like there's literally no reason to play OW anymore because its all about deathmatching rather than the team fight aspect. Overwatch has lost any identity.
When I bought overwatch back in 2017 I knew what kind of game I was getting into and I adjusted. When it was 6v6 it felt more like a moba then a traditional fps and I had no problem with that.
@@lukeaustin4465 EXACTLY DUDE, I miss it not being just another shooter, the "it's an fps" argument for hitscan to be strong and against other cool unique characters (doom, venture) is the most BRAINDEAD thing I have ever seen in my life
WE HAVE REINHARDT
I think Mauga really solidified the biggest problems with 5v5 that would be much easier to balance in 6v6
Jakes point of being forced to pick a synergy hero may sound smart until you realise in 5v5 you are forced to play meta which actually reduces the probability of you being able to play your main
Lmao yeah and jake and AVRL saying tanks were too strong together: yes teamwork is strong, it will always BE STRONG, so what??? 'Teamwork is very strong vs non teamwork' like no shit?? Lmfao
Overwatch 1 tank main with over 1000 hrs on tank role playing in bronze through mid diamond playing all tanks. I loved tanking in O1 recently uninstalled O2. Samito hit the nail on the head for me at 1:48:00. The flexibility and the playstyles that you had to express yourself at lower levels of play were much higher, whereas in Overwatch 2 i feel funneled to play a specific playstyle that is not fun to me. For example, I used to play Reinhart (with another main tank) like an off tank, either super aggro, or sneaking around, taking highground, getting behind the team and shattering. I made it to diamond with that playstyle and it was so much fun. I'm not going to be the best in the world with that but now I don't have the option to try. Even if I had a hog on my team in O1 (which happened in a lot of games) I felt as if I had much more agency to play around the hog even if the other team had perfect tank synergy, through slower gameplay. It felt like when the conversation was shifted to the average player's perspective/experience, Samito was the only one that really seemed to understand what it was like, especially when referring specifically to the tank mains perspective. Also, how are we going to talk about tank queue times without mentioning they went from needing two tanks on a team, to one.
Something else to add is that AVRL really overestimates how well people used tank synergy, even in diamond. You could literally play whatever tank you preferred at that level. At least in my experience. As long as you could deny their wincons
Yup, up through diamond and even in to masters you could basically play whatever tank you wanted if you were good at it.
@@austinsojka7917it’s still that way with every hero imo
Right, the meta synergies and combos is stuff most of us don’t even pay attention to, we play who’s fun or who we’re good at. But it’s very easy to tell if you’re just getting counter picked in OW2 as a tank and I’m not even a tank main but I feel like I’m forced to switch sometimes, I’d rather just see 2 tanks. Taking over a game with orisa or ramattra is very fun to me ngl but when you’re on the other end of that it feels completely hopeless and snowballs hard. Having several duo options as tank (synergy or not) sounds more fun to me than being 1v1 counterpicked. And from a casual perspective 1 more player on both teams is just cool
Yea they don’t really seem to understand how lower ranks work.
Sure you get the people that play meta. But you also get people that are gonna play doom fist into an orisa.
Way more common to see weird stuff in lower leagues.
@@michaelsnyder8243 Yup most of us who don’t live and breathe OW don’t know wth the meta is currently. I just switch characters based on how good/bad we’re doing, i unfortunately know meta without trying in this game because solo tank makes it to where I’m seeing 80% of the same tank depending on the latest patch
@2:31:00 AVRL has no idea what he's talking about. Low ranked players would love for the game to be catered towards higher skill ceiling heroes. Even in low ranks the most popular heroes are Genji, Tracer, Hanzo, etc. And the most hated hero for years has been Moira because she makes it harder for them to enjoy the higher skill ceiling heroes. Heroes like Sym, Moira, Brig, etc have been the most hated in low ranks forever.
Lmfao for real dude, dps doom in ow1 being (technically) bad, and now venture being hard gutted because of lower ranks AND GENJI BY THE WAY, is so dumb and we like those characters they're fun af
They literally just have no idea about low rank/average players, WHY are they even talking about them as if they know??
I love that 6v6 is being discussed more, for me that was real Overwatch and OW2 has yet to live up to even a fraction of Fun 6v6 brought me personally.
I am a tank main, but i also play a lot of Supp and DPS and to be honest i dont find DPS and Supp more fun but i find Tank 100x less fun in 5v5.
I noticed they couldnt really agree on a casual players perspective, which is the majority of the playerbase, in my opinion casuals dont care about balance, they just want to have fun, which was more easily achiveable on tank in 6v6.
Qing with my OW noob friends, duoing tank with them and teaching the role is some of the best moments i had in gaming, making tank Solo, completly ruins it from a Social standpoint, since casuals cant play together as 2 tanks and you dont have this feeling of "We outplayed them together" which was just always so hype, i mean we notice it in OW2s voice chat, nobody talks, seems like everyone just lost their will to win.
Balance is also debateable, but i think, if RoleQ got more than 6 months worth of patches, it would have been great, like sam said, the only real issue people had was 2x Shield, every other meta wasnt complained about if we are being honest.
Id love for Blizzard to try 6v6 with less CC, less Shields and overall less of the AoE Heal/Immortality abilities which make gamepla feel cheap, if we get that i think OW would be at its peak, similar to 2016 - 2018.
Ok your points are good but I have have two big counters that are just dealbreakers for me.
One idk wtf hawk is talking about but my que times in gold in 2022 overwatch 1 at dps were always 15-20 minutes and now they are 1-5 mins even at 4am at diamond. So que times massively benefited me and I assume the whole player base as obviously most players played dps and tank has always been the most un fun and unpopular role.
Two is that having two less giant players on the screen makes the game feel so much more spacious as well as things are just much easier to see now. Like adding two mare tanks to every game and plus with fucking tree and flowers everywhere now I think the game would look so much worse than it does now.
I agree tank sucks, but it always has. So shut up and swap to sigma so you win your games since in most cases winning is more important than playing fun heroes. Nah fr idk if 6v6 would be better or worse overall but as lower rank dps player I think it would be worse for me so no. Another factor to consider is that companies hate reverting big changes bc it makes them look stupid and wrong. And that might honestly be the biggest hurdle even if this was a much bigger issue I still think developers would be like “no, the majority of players don’t support that” even tho the majority prolly don’t even know about this issue.
@@Johnsmith36346 Qtimes i can understand, they are better, but you dont honestly think thats only because of 5v5 right?
We are Comparing 2022 OW1, which got 0 Updates and no new content since 3 years, was stuck on a shit meta and with the promise that "OW2 will be better" and still cost 20€ / $
Compared to OW2 which got new maps, modes, heroes, patch notes, collaborations, Battle pass, shop and even PVE if we count that. The game is just in general healthier because it gets patched and the meta changes so more people come back. But the biggest thing for Qtimes, is that the game is F2P, it wouldnt have mattered if we stay 6v6, all the new content, patches every month and most importantly F2P would give the game enough players
Game is after 1 year right now falling off though, obviously some shit decisions have been made but 5v5 just restricts casuals too much so they quit, thats my opinion on it
I mean, in 6v6 you could always play rein in low elo and make it work, now you walk into Orisa/Bastion and cant, its miserable so people who love rein drop the game
Or when youre playing against a Widow or a Pharah, back then another tank could help casuals deal with them, now i just get 1 Hog or even Mauga and widow / pharah just blast us down
Imo, 2 more targets on the map is good, maps feel so empty nowdays
I dont buy they wanted to remove "Visual Clutter" by removing 2 Tanks, because right after thst they give us Kiriko Ult, Ram Ult, Weaver ult, Illari Ult and now Maugs ult who are all as worse as sym ult in terms of clutter
Its not a 5v5 or 6v6 issue, its them designing heroes that way
Sorry for the long comment, but im so passionate about old OW, i get a bit depressed playing OW2, tank sucks way to much there
@@heiko2255 nah I usually have way longer comments.
So 1 these debates are so frustrating bc I just don’t know how many people play certain hero’s and pay money to those hero’s and if people played hog, doom, rein, etc quit after they were nerfed. Personally for me as a dps genji and tracer are very frustrating to lose on but extremely satisfying to win with bc I feel like those are characters based around skills. Idk if you feel that same in comparing tanks like that?
I totally agree that the visual clutter was more by accident (other than reduced shields) but point still stands that on maps like kings row, first and third point dorado, third point Havana, third point Route 66, third point blizzard world, most if not all maps in control I think the experience would be far worse.
I agree that ow 2 is much more popular and I actually might be more optimistic about player number staying high or growing. Obviously tho I have no clue if players are leaving or why. I’m a lot less hard on devs about players bc I feel like a lot of the new players will always get bored and move on to a new game and there is no way for ow to out compete all new games coming out every year. Idk what the way generate hype and buzz is, but personally I want a ow arcane. Any ideas?
@@Johnsmith36346 The thing is, im not that Optimistic they make it as big as it once was again.
2016 - 2017 OW was the Game for Competitive Multiplayer
Then they kinda just let their Game of the year die by putting to much into the OWL and making OW2 instead of making OW1 F2P and live service, they wasted all the OW1 Hype because they didnt want to hire more devs back in 2017
OW2 was their 2nd Chance, a few million people watched the beta on Twitch, it was big again but only for a Month
If they instantly added 10 Heroes, 2 Modes, 15 Maps, Tournaments, Clans, etc. then maybe it would have made a bigger Impact
But we just got 3 Heroes, 5 Maps, a worse Ranked System, No way to level your Account, F2P players cant get a lot of things, etc. OW2 on release was honestly horrible, the OW 1.1 meme was real
Dont know how they can recover, id say
1. Give players atleast 500 Coins in the BP, you should get back some of the coins you bought the BP with
2. Add back some kind of Acc Levels where you get rewards (Hero Mastery Level is cool and all, but i dont get a cool border or rewards from that) because what can a player do after completing the BP? Nothing, nobody cares about level 200 titles, but just letting people get rewards incentivises them to play
3. They gotta fix Counterswapping, so i myself hate 5v5 with a burning passion so even if they fix that i wont come back, but other players might so they need to find some way to fix that
4. Its a fucking joke theres no Tournament mode, like i take League of Legends for example, you have a Tournament once per Month where you can select 5 Teammates and play 3 Back-to-back matches, if you win all you get some cool rewards, but its also just fun to play Tournaments and OW not having that is ridiculous
5. One thing out of their Control that would help is better Content Creators
Look, emongg, flats, KarQ, etc. might all be nice people, but they are snowflakes and thats not entertaining
Gaming Culture is often toxic, but thats also entertaining, id rather watch XQC in 2017 have some worse mechanics but make me laugh by arguing in Voice chat, then watching flat just stomp some kid but having a boring ass personality
We had XQC, Moxy, Dafran, TimTheTatMan, MoonMoonOW, etc. who all were entertaining, but they all also werr a bit toxic but they pulled lots of viewers with that and that madr positive waves for the OW community
So yeah, OW2 Content Creators suck imo
I could go on, but imo they need a miracle to save OW
@@heiko2255 eh I agree with all of that but idk if lack of xqc matters too much. Like ow made xqc not the other way around, he wasn’t popular then he made ow popular he became one of the biggest ow content creators then moved on when Jeff and old devs decided to leave the game in shit state to make some dumb pve for no fucking reason.
But again I don’t know if you can capitalize on hype by anything other than making money, especially when once the max number of people bought the game that’s it for revenue. Idk about tournaments bc I hate any extra delays to my game play. If I had to make a team of any extra decisions before a game fuck that mode I’m not playing. Again I get twitch is much easier to see but I don’t think twitch is the end all be all when comes to how well a game is doing.
I also am a lot more skeptical on whether or not big patches and new maps matter that much. Also idk about u but I hate new heroes bc all these fucks play these hero’s in my games and it gets boring. Also I just don’t like having new heroes that much. Maybe pve works but whatever the case they need a lot of money from Microsoft to bring back attention.
I really love the reversal of the competitive system back to ow1 coming in season 9, but i highly doubt anyone that isn’t a hardcore player like me will really care.
I personally don’t think you ever hit the same level twice especially since blizzard ruined its reputation with the sexual harassment case. Cyberpunk is great game now everything they said it would be back in 2018. But that doesn’t matter now, and even with a anime and celebrities like idris Elba and Keanu the game will never hit the ceiling it could have.
On streamers more tho one problem I do have is that the devs should own ow news. None of this communication through flats or emongg, use the ow TH-cam and twitch and have someone become the new Jeff Kaplan.
I liked the debate but at the same time it was really tilting to hear some of the arguments being brought up so often. I think this could've been easily avoided by either refuting them fast (that's on sam & hawk) or just setting a scenario in which the debate is happening, such as you did by saying "this is about 6v6 role lock and not goats". I would've wished for people to consider all the new content that came to OW2 5v5 more and consider this amount of content in 6v6 too. It was brought up at some point when they talked about JQ as a good Tank design but wasn't discussed enough i think.
You can not by any means compare 6v6 at the state of double shield meta with the current 5v5, that is not a fair comparison considering that the game was abandonded without any new content for like 2 years. People needed to be reminded of this more often i think.
Any time jake would argue about more diversity in OW2 i was immediately thinking: yeah no shit sherlock, you have more heroes overall in the game that in itself will make it more diverse. Combine that with the need to counterswap on the tankrole and there you have it. I felt like this argument was brought up way too much for it to be kinda meaningless.
Another thing that didn't feel fair was: dismissing hawks argument about the tank matchup being boring bc hawk himself is "an outlier" in the matchmaker and arguing as if this would not be the case for the majority of the playerbase. Pls just talk to people. Nobody wants to queue Tank. If what Hawk is saying is not true or applies only to him, what are the reasons for other people not to like tank? and really what makes you think that they will be able to fix that for the average player, when we had like 12 patches by now and it only got worse?
I liked a lot of this debate but it ultimately came down to Hawk saying "tank was more fun in OW1 and we could've fixed double shield" and then jake or AVRL saying "no we couldn't fix balance in OW1 bc we say so but we can fix it in OW2 bc we say so but we have zero evidence for it in 6 and a half seasons of patches"
Really felt like Jake had little or loosely connected reasoning for a lot of his claims and when samito and Hawk would point them out Jake would just say he disagrees and state the same argument
They also used a weird counter argument in 6v6: something along the lines of "forcing you to play the right tank" to create these op synergies bc if you don't it's an auto lose. This in itself is a very high elo argument and if you dismiss hawk with a snap just like that you need to also not let this argument count, bc in anything below masters-gm it#s just not a thing. It doesn't apply for the majority of the playerbase. Yes games were full of hogs and it was cancer to play with but that was (as it was mentioned) a priority pass symptom. Realistically in anything below masters any comp was viable. One guy trolling, or not picking the "right" character is not an argument for or against any gamemode. you have that happen in OW2 all the time as well. arguably they even have more impact in OW2 but then again you also have more impact yourself, so technically it cancels each other out
@@Munez7people play Hog because it's selfish pick that works on his own. Ow2 gave us more tanks that are solo machines which would break the game in OW1. I agree with Jake that some tanks would need to be infinitely weaker in OW1 because other tank would cover their weaknesses and they would be busted as fuck. Ramattra is fine if he is solo tank. Same with Sigma or JQ. But give them strong synergy like JQ + Zarya and they just run you over.
If I recall correctly even devs themselves said something like "going 5v5 gave us more freedom in designing characters" because if tanks can do everything alone then the only thing they need to worry about is balance around other tanks themselves. If you design with tank pairs in mind then they are oppressive in the right circumstances and complete shit in others. And those circumstances come from your own team, not what opponents run. Your own stubborn team may make meta tank garbage because they just play random shit
Love reading all these biased one-dimensional comments
@@Harevald You are correct hog is a selfish hero but that wasn't why he was picked so much at the end of OW1. Everyone is forgetting DPS players didn't want long que times so just qued flex for priority pass, got tank and then picked hog because he is just a dps with more health.
One thing I think should have been addressed more is the fact that almost all hard CC was removed from the game as we transitioned to OW2. I believe a lot of the people saying 5v5 fundamentally 'feels better' are actually just enjoying the lack of constant hard CC (though its slowly coming back). We don't know how ow1 would have felt if they reworked flashbang, brig stun, doom punch, etc. I also think the support giga buffing happened as a premature overreaction to dive being unchecked by CC in season 1.
100%
Isnt the only cc difference between ow1 cc and ow2 cc like flashbang and shieldbash? Cus then its obviously could work in ow1
@@hambster9759Exactly, mei freeze doesn’t freeze, it has a slow now and halt got added to the horse’s ultimate and she ALSO got javelin. Brig has her stun in her ultimate, sigma has rock, and Cassidy has a slow and movement ability lock on it AND has tracking 🤡, so I definitely agree with you that CC really didn’t go anywhere.
CC in OW1 felt bad if you werent a tank or if they used 4-5 of them on a single tank in a row which felt like you had to use them all on the tank so the tank would die so you could continue past the first choke otherwise the tank would shrug the first one off and then get protected by the off tank and supports for most of the rest.
@@chpgmr1372 land a nade, or use coordination and superior mechanics to get past the choke. Or play dive 🤷🏾♂️.
The fact that there is no 6v6 mode like "ow classic" in even arcade is telling, it would become too popular
PTSD from goats is no joke can't go 10 minutes without mentioning it 😂
😭😭
Samito dropping the facts!!!
Props to SVB for moderating this. Always love listening to these on long drives for work
The argument for 5v5 was just 6v6 is to hard to balance. I’d rather we not give up on a more successful game because we can’t balance properly.
yes... we're stripping away variables to balance less parameters. The weird thing is, that they also added MORE passive abilities, MORE abilities in reworks (Sombra, Hog). I do not understand that they are not following through with that idea.
Yup the devs sucked at their jobs
Dude fucking exactly lmao
Yeah the role queue 6v6 was the years wasted by ow2 development. Literally patch notes every 3-4 months.
@@xyzbca110 lol yeah they weren't even fully focused on the live game
"You are basically always handicapped to pick something that synergizes with your other tank" So exactly the same as what happens in OW2 if you queue tank and your supports dont pick things that synergize with eachother? So its just a personal problem you have, when its you affected by its its a problem, when you just shove those problems onto another role it stops being a problem. This Jake kid is fkn clueless
Let’s be honest, support synergy is no where near as important
@@DogeCoinInvestorThey must have missed the part where 3 of the people completely agreed about the state of support synergy.
@@josephreynolds2401 they all agreed that tank synergies are significantly more impactful than support synergies. If you watch the video they had a whole conversation about how you can make almost any support comp work fine and a hog ruins any tank synergy instantly.
@@DogeCoinInvestor yes it is. if you play tank and have zen/lucio and they have ana/kiri your life will be miserable. its the exact same thing just shoved into a different role
Supports *are* broken I'm so sick of people pretending they aren't.
The only meta not defined by its supports was S1 rein Zarya: oh wait no that was unplayable if you weren't running Ana/Lucio
We gonna pretend like Sojourn was broken? No: Mercy was broken
Ashe? No: Mercy was broken
Soldier? Nope, mercy again
Bastion last patch? Nope turns out once again it's only a problem with Mercy
Bap is the only reason Orisa bunker/double shield was possible. That team comp would be so bad if it had to rely on Ana/Brig as it's base supp duo
Briggite literally reformed the balance of the entire game around her kit and borderline killed dive as a playstyle, briggite existing started every single problem tanks face now as it made the Devs powercreep tf out of raw damage to make playing front-to-back more feasible because diving supports was no longer a reasonable win condition
Lucio is only the reason why Rein and Rammattra have ever been oppressive
Kiriko was the one who made roadhog broken, hog got literally no changes aside from a 1s hook cooldown reduction and some HP, but Suzu covered his only weakness and made him too strong,
Pharmercy is the only way to play Pharah at high ranks
The synergy between tanks; which as a class *all* have the identity of being close-mid solo carry bruisers with huge health pools and between supports: who enable that carry by replacing their health and giving them utility resources is ridiculous and is absolutely more potent than the synergy between tanks and supports on their own
Supports have literally always been the problem and the only solution is that most dps in 5v5 need to be reworked to have *some* support capacity because as it stands they're like the youngest child with absolutely no true responsibilities and no idea what they're missing out on.
Supports and tanks are really strong but it comes with a level of responsibility that often stops them from being fun or removes your autonomy, dps doesn't have this issue because the other classes are specifically overloaded with resources so that you don't have to take on that responsibility and can just single-mindedly *pew pew pew*
If dps were designed closer to Mei, Sym, Soldier where their abilities have the capacity to support their team: we probably wouldn't have this issue where the classes feel extremely mismatched in terms of both fun and impact
6v6 would bring me, and the people i played with back to overwatch probably. 5v5 has brought with it a deeply unsatisfying rolling meta, less interesting comps, less interesting team fights. It just wasn't necessary.
I was a dps player for a long time in overwatch 1 and actually picked up tank late overwatch 1 in double shield and still enjoyed it more than dps cause that synergy was so good and fun. Now I hate playing tank cause it’s simply meta slave of the month. I went from one trucking JQ to one tricking dva or Orisa. It’s simply not fun and synergy is WHAT makes overwatch good.
Imagine self reporting this hard
Yeah! Imo tank was fun to play when it actually felt like the role was a . . . role. With only one "raidboss" or leader style tank, teamfight dynamics feel so lopsided and weird; I often feel more like a glorified dps with more responsibility/hp/damage. Tanks are often locked into kaiju battles while the other four are in deathmatchy wild west shootouts; it's so disconnected.
@@Highstar7331You're spot on about the tanks being locked into a stalemate and the rest of the team a wild death match.
Seriously dude, it’s so boring, just pick the meta tank of the month and if you get countered just counter them back, it’s so brain dead and unfun
I sure loved shooting two barriers for three to four hours every play session. There was no variety at all. Ever.
Holy the 5v5 arguments aged like MILK. They’ve tried everything except going back to 6v6 but nothings worked cos the games fundamentally broken. Tank has only gotten worse. ggs
15:55 oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes bubbled
oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes litearlly immortal cause he got suzu'd
No self-awareness whatsoever. The only difference between what he likes and what he hates is whether it is tanks or supports who get to decide whether the tanks can play the game or not.
Lets use a little logic, take the current game and go to 6v6, Both of these scenarios happen instead of only 1 of them, so tanks get even stronger with more characters added to support them. Therefore tanks have much more power.
Yes but the reason these supports were given abilities lime suzu and tp, and imo field buffs, if because of the shift to 5v5 and a want to make the characters more generalist. So maybe if we went back to 6v6 we could tone back some of the generalist shit that makes these characters unpunishable and make the game about positioning again instead of trading cool downs until somebody falls asleep at the keyboard and you get to finally make a pick
@@Acrux9now yes, because we got kiriko suzu and lw grip. These heroes didnt exist yet in 6v6. What should happen is create an "offtank" role, who can have no shields, and a "main tank" role who can. Then u can play 2 offtanks, or 1 main tank and 1 offtank, this fixes double shield.
Everyone's stats get reset to how it was at end of OW1 (cuz tanks got megabuffed to OW2 and healing was pumped up), and immortality abilities get reworked. That's imo the way to restore this game to its former glory.
@@Acrux9if we went back to 6v6 now tanks would obviously be tuned down to the amount of power they had back in the days. Suzu and life grip should not grant immortality. There you go, problem solved.
@@psyonicvertebrae1717 no, splitting the roles would increase queue times even more, we don't need that, we already had Orisa's shield removed, double shield is LITERALLY ALREADY FIXED lmfao
Really appreciate you taking the time to time stamp, great listen as always
I believe the reason everyone complained about double sheild is not because of the tanks, but because the characters playing behind the tanks became unflankable, so you had no agency after that.
6v6 was just more fun for tank. We can argue back and forth between which had more tank agency and variety, but in the end tank players had more fun in 6v6. They removed half of the queue slots for tank and the role still has the shortest queue time. Objectively, queue time should be twice as long as other roles if as many people want to play tank. Instead OW2 has less than half the number of tank players as support or DPS, and it's clear that the shift has gone to support which now has the highest queue time for maybe the first time in OW history.
This whole discussion just seems like DPS players discussing which metas they hated the most. Tank players don't like OW2. Support is insanely overtuned now in OW2 after DPS was incredibly dominant for months. Tanks aren't interesting. Like Hawk said, JQ is the only tank that's been added/reworked that has any sort of skill expression. Doomfist was super interesting but they can't find a way to balance him. Ram/Orisa/Sigma are basically just the same character in terms of what they do, with each being slightly more optimal in different situations. "Tanks were left behind" is a copout - the devs KNEW they were going to 5v5 and STILL, YEARS LATER, haven't fixed the tanks that got left behind. They've even NERFED Rein, Zarya, etc when they were finally playable. The only fix is reworks, and that's the same as throwing some of these characters out, which means 5v5 threw away a whole role worth of heroes because of how bad it is to balance it in a tank/DPS/support setup. They can't have tank work in 5v5 and have it be fun. Ram/Orisa/Sigma is like the absence of flavor and they're so generic and similar that it shows how little design space there is now for tank.
The funny part is they just got the wrong tank player to be on the podcast. Hawk honestly is the perfect example of the tank players frustration but he's too emotional to make a cohesive argument.
What are you on about? Support role is STILL the fastest queue. No1 queued for tank in OW1 because ... it was less fun. Its that simple.
Tf are you smoking to think support is the fastest queue? I played literally just yesterday and while Tank and dps queues were at 1 minute each, support was at 4 minutes and even reached up to 7 minutes@@phoenixtorment5735
In OW1 dps queue was 5-10 times longer than tank queue, support was 3-4 times longer even in plat. As a diamond/plat player, I no longer have any queue time past 3 min. Even their priority queue didnt change much.
Yep, you nailed it. Tank is just generally worse to play. Since there's only one tank it feels like you need to constantly perform or you lose. Having another tank player to work with just felt so much better than having to try to hold the team together by yourself. They're mostly looking at it from a GM/Top 500 perspective while ignoring 99% of the player base.
Dude, AVRL saying "I gotta finish my point" was the funniest shit ever!!! THE man that interrupts EVERYBODY ALWAYS, asking to be allowed to finish his thought … Gold
That little smirk on his face when you can see he’s frustrated is priceless he really thinks he more intelligent than he is
No lie I know that this won’t get seen or matter to the actual podcast but I’ve watched a couple of these not having Avril and liked them way better. He just comes off like an actual douche and just blows off anything people say and interrupt almost everytime. The part that’s lowkey pissed me off the most was how bringing up plays you could make with tank duos you can’t do anymore and he just try’s to bring up 4 tanks or 3 monkeys everytime like we are arguing shit that can happen in role lock and he’s like “It DoEsNt MaTtEr BeCaUsE yOu CaNt PlAy 4 MoNkIeS EiThEr BoOhOo”. Like I wish I could’ve slapped him lowkey. I started plat and was 3200-3500 for 6+ seasons as a rank main starting in season 4 and was 4300 from season 10 till the end and can say not having tank synergy is not “required” like he says in order to win. I had a fresh account when ball was released and went 9-1 in placements and had like 80% winrate to Gm. As long as you’re good at what you’re playing you can find out how to make tanks work. I had over 1k hours on tanks in ow1 and refuse to touch it after my placements in ow2 now
He is so confidently incorrect and wrong on certain points and fails to acknowledge his mistakes far too often.
I’m so glad somebody said something, because he was pissing me off as soon as the opening statements stated
See, here I don't agree with everybody. I don't care about his wild takes (which many of i don't agree with, but that's the point of a discussion) as long as he is respectful and lets others finish their arguments. He has good takes, too, but i dont wanna hear them if another person needs to be cut off in the middle of their argument for it. AVRL is a grown man, I wish he behaved like that in a discussion.
This aged well for 6v6 and aged poorly for 5v5
Never understood the "the if x main tank you have to pick y off-tank" argument, because every other role is also like that, you don't play mercy lucio or anything like that on suport.
Dps always had freedom to pick whatever they want more or less. Your team doesn't suffer just because you want to play sniper and Mei. They only had to worry to not play shit dps that are easy to exploit by the enemy such as Junkrat Reaper into Pharah mercy.
Pairing of pretty much any dps was more or less fine
Jake and AVRL also acted like it matters in lobbies below Masters to pick Tank Synergies.
He completly went wild after someone said "It doesnt matter what Tank Combo youre playing in Gold" which is true, a like Hog/Dva could beat Orisa/Sigma in low elo, since nobody is really organized, i agree Orisa/Sigma probably gets easier value, but in low elo literally anything can happen.
@@heiko2255 EXACTLY DUDE, THEY JUST HAVE NO IDEA OR ARE TROLLING, I was bronze most of ow1, I was that super average or even below average player, and I saw literally any tank combo played, and they could all work, jake and avrl are actually just deluded (unaware) lmfao double shield wasn't even a problem in low elo
@@bambampewpew32 The months since the debate have showed me Jake is even more delusional and AVRL idk
@@heiko2255 lmfao what'd jake do since then?
I don’t believe it is possible to make tank as fun in 5v5 as it was at its best in 6v6. The best argument they have is junker Queen is THE 5v5 tank. And junker Queen has not been playable for most of ow2. When she was playable, not playing a counter junker Queen meant almost certain loss. Jake seems to think counter swapping = fun healthy game. As a tank main, being stuck in a constant loop of rock paper scissors is a fun killer. And because there is one tank, if I’m countered by ONE person on the enemy team, I don’t have a second tank to cover my weaknesses. If the enemy plays Zarya and Zarya is any good, I go Winston to counter, the enemy goes bastion to counter me, now I’m fucked. I’m not allowed to play the game. I don’t see this problem as fixable in 5v5. In 6v6 I am not forced to switch just because of one counter. It takes at least two people countering AND my own team comp has to be bad before I cannot play the game and HAVE to switch.
I would love to see a proposal to make 5v5 tank fun. Because I simply don’t see it as possible
counter swapping = boring af... oh dva it's zarya time! I even seen the tank inting and insta locking zarya.
@@GouFPS counter swapping (aka knowing which hero is the "funny hero") is NOT a skill and people need to stop acting like it's part of what makes overwatch fun
@@assimilater-quicktips lmao for real like holy shit HOW can jake say that's a "sign of a healthy game" I CANNOT MAN 🚫🚫🚫🚫❌️❌️❌️
@@bambampewpew32 ya I really hate how the 5v5ers try and gaslight tank players. We’ve been getting fucked for too long as change after change only makes the role less fun and we’re supposed to believe it’s for our good
Double shield this, double shield that. Everyone’s shield health is lower and orisa doesn’t even have hers anymore
it’s so dumb to use double shield to argue against 6v6 when the new tanks barely have shield and we literally have one tank that punches through them and another that ults through them and antis everybody. Man… I would LOVE to see a main tank-Junkerqueen combo
@@itsbeeva Indeed. Double shield really became this ridiculous boogeyman people use as an argument without any thought put behind it. Double shield wasn't a 6v6 issue but a balancing issue and it could have been done away with in 6v6 environment as well.
@@-Zikade- Period👏🏽
@NanaHoneyB I'm someone who played ow1 and stopped playing because of the 2 tanks and long que times. Most of the people in the community today are people who didnt mind or liked 6v6.
I think the 5v5 6v6 debate is currently pointless when the game struggles to get and retain new players. Should just focus on the new player experience.
@@PBNIP "stopped playing because of the 2 tanks" bro what?? Nobody even questioned the existance of 2 tanks until ow2 wym lmao
Unless you didn't mean that
You can't blame 6v6 for this; the game was abandoned for more than 2 years. They could have focused on fixing the game, but they chose a lazy approach by simply removing one role, thinking it would solve all the problems, which actually had the opposite effect. Some people might argue that the state of the game is okay or better now, and it might be true, but that's because they've recently started giving attention to the game, fixing some problems, and making 5v5 work with the new system. I play almost every day, and in my experience, when I ask other players if 6v6 is better and if they want it back, almost everyone says 6v6 is way better. Anyone who argues that 6v6 was the problem and 5v5 fixed it is delusional and wrong.
Jake's arguments pretty much always come down to: No one wants to play Tank, so it's fine if that role sucks to play.
For real, the reason nobody wants to play tank is because it sucks to play
I honestly think if they brought back 6v6 and maybe even some pro tank propaganda, we'd have tons of tank players (including me, and I was a dps main back then)
As a gold player since ow1 launched, i miss 6v6 alot. Tanking was much more fun when there was an off tank.
6 vs 6 won the argument hard.
yessir
The 5v5 arguments aged so extremely poorly
Poor samito😭. Bro was fighting for his life to clean up after hawk
Real asf
Bro Sam was making solid ass points, well articulated rebuttals, and making arguments that were so weakly refuted and Hawk was just stuttering a bunch
@@rickmich18I'd be curious to hear him articulate better. Samito also had this problem like 3 years ago when everybody was calling him nuts because his expressions were over-the-top.
Twitter engagements be like:
Sam was making the best points the whole time, i already knew i prefered 6v6 but he brought some things up that i didnt even think about.
And yeah its tragic Hawk is not a Streamer or Caster or older, he wants to say the right things but just cant put the words together.
Still better than Jake though, who tried to make every point in favor for 6v6 feel like a joke by answering while laughing
@@heiko2255agreed. Jake really comes off as an arrogant person in this debate. Seems he values the sound of his own voice over being respectful and hearing the other side out. It really rubbed me the wrong way. Hawk just seemed like he was nervous and anxious, but not as arrogant and smarmy as Jake.
I see no downside to at least give 6v6 as an arcade mode. Tank went from my favorite role to the one I almost never play. Jake and AVRL make good points *at the top level* but the complete lack of teamwork most of the time at metal/diamond ranks makes relying on only one tank too reliant on one person. My friends and I actually really enjoy open queue (diamond in the comp mode) because we can do two tanks again but the tanks aren't as strong. If one of us dies, there's another tank there to help the team but they aren't a raid boss. I agree with Samito and Hawk that balancing was the problem not the 6v6 format. They also could've just made it where only one shield tank can be selected at a time. To AVRL's point, I'd rather have two 50% tanks than one 100% tank. Also Bap Immo is my least favorite thing they've ever added, pretty lame to negate an entire ult with a cooldown.
I agree, to much bad memory and selective memory. Just bring back 6v6 and everyone will see how infinitely better it is (provided they do a couple small changes to bring it back where it was, aka nerf queen shout a little and self heal, roadhog maybe getting his one shot back (dont remember if he had it at the end if ow1), ram getting higher shield cooldown / less health and all that maybe longer form shift time, dps getting their dmg back (soldier 20 dps, hanzo 70 dmg storm arrow, genji, etc) PLEASE put doom back as a DPS, he doesnt fit as a tank and was so unique of a hero. Tank fucked him.
Just little changes like that, and everyone will see 6v6 was way better. There will be significantly less stomps immediately and once people get used to it again it will be very very rare to super stomp teams like you can now. As in your team will have to be SOOO much better to do that. Compared to now.
Also make it a comp mode.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin Not sure why people think 6v6 wil somehow just end the concept of stomps happening. Sometimes you just get rolled.
@@aerostrafe1075 Rolled, but not stomped. Its completely different. When you get rolled you can atleast get out of spawn. In 6v6 even if you were losing hard u always had a chance to win still or could atleast practice a hero without being spawn camped or looked at by 4 people because u had 2 tanks that can take the attention on them. in 5v5 that chance to win is completely gone unless the enemy team completely throws and you can't practice anything when you are being spawn camped, if you try to flank you get looked at by 4 people.
If they add a 6v6 comp mode like they should, everyone will see how dog shit 5v5 is in comparison. Everyone is just gaslighting themselves about 5v5. Its a striped down game and its not overwatch. We only put up with it because PVE was going to come out and we thought all the heroes were going to get massive changes which DID NOT HAPPEN. Remember that. All false promises and now we are left with a game worse then the original in every fcking way.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin Stopped reading at the first sentence. I was just using rolled as the stand in word for stomped. I see no difference between the two words. You pretty much tried to explain to me the difference between the word "beaten" and "defeated" when both words are used in the same context.
@@aerostrafe1075 You know you are wrong, thats all you have to say. Theres a difference between getting completely spawn camped and losing badly. Learn to imply things. Roll and stomped dont have a 100% meaning what sounds worse? rolled or stomped? clearly stomped which is why its the worse of the 2. Stomped means you get completely stomped on with no chance, rolled meaning your getting rolled all over on but can still get up.
So i was using it in that context, but you already knew that. but because you had no argument for what i said next, you try to strawman and bring the argument off topic. Typical tactic of someone with nothing to say. No defending your point so you try to drag me down to your stupidity where you think you can beat me but you couldn't even if i did (Which i just showed you). Btw ik you read all of this so stfu lmao. You gave to much energy and attention to this already.
Watched it on twitch, Samito and Hawk really echoed my feels, the game is just tasteless with 5v5 on tanks as a casual player 😥 - Really 5v5 just flipped a switch on this role for me. Where was Hawk hiding all this time in these debates?! More of him
Idk man. I'm a tank player and disagree. I have higher ups and perhaps lower lows too. But that is the fun of the seasons. Sometimes I can be on zarya, rein and sigma and slap people and show dominance. But 6v6 just gave extra people to blame and main tank felt horrible, low damage and high sustainability is boring af. Now tanks being slightly better all rounders make it a lot more fun for me
Honestly, I probably quit more because of 5v5 than anything else. I understand and respect peoples points.. but I just really prefer bigger team games, 8v8 is my preference but 6v6 was better than 5v5 for me. Respect and love to everyone who favors 5v5 but.. I really dont. I don't feel like I want to tank anymore because of it. >
@@Camikio wow. Interesting to see other views too 👍 for me it just bring balance so much more difficult. Standard fps games is no dramas to balance when abilities aren't so important. But with ow it was hard enough trying to make 6v6 balanced
@@spencerfrankel414 I know people continue to play the game and enjoy 5v5, but for me the soul of the game was lost with when 6v6 was gone. I am all for fps games as well, I play battlefield off and on. But OW has had nothing like it - especially tanking in OW 6v6.
Hawk isn't making good points at all.
This one was a bit of a mess, but there's a lot of great perspectives that came through. Really appreciate Sam's clarity in both not interrupting as well as trying to deliver his points within the context of what Avrl and Jake are trying to say.
Plenty to comment on, but I think Hawk's point about them having abandoned the Tank Role long before they abandoned the entirety of OW1, was spot on. Junkerqueen is a good (not perfect) example of what an engaging Tank could be and for Jake/Avrl to say "she would not be playable in 6v6" is very disingenuous, given how balance/design in OW1 was largely pushed aside in an effort to re-vitalize the MMO that the Devs had always wanted to build (as we found out from Dev blogs this year).
Tanks were not given any fair consideration post GOATS and, as time went on, Tank players left the game BECAUSE it was frustrating to play. Jake's point about "Tank has always been unpopular" isn't accurate either, because there has never been a concerted effort around their Balance/Design.
OW2 then used the low tank numbers to make a shift into 5v5, pushing every Tank player left to be a Hyper-flex across 10+ heroes, further contributing to player burnout, invulnerability mechanics, and "Individual Impact", while ensuring all the responsibilities of 2 Tanks from OW1, would now have to be covered by a single player/Tank. That is going to produce triage of those responsibilities and will end up with frustrated teammates who want to blame their Tank for the responsibilities that have to be ignored.
Appreciate these types of topics that are more targeted. Keep 'em up, mate.
A lot of good points have been made on both sides, but myself and most of the friends I have used to love tank (it was my favorite) in 6v6, but none of us want to do it now and basically draw straws for who has to - I have a good feeling this is a common occurrence in the community
i always found it hard to find good tanks for diamond/masters
I honestly hate AVRL in these debates. He seems like he has a big ego and is arguing more for winning the debate than for actually being intellectually honest. Same with Jake to some degree too though.
U just are paid by samito
@@Johnsmith36346 at least samito is advocating for a game that isnt braindead counter swapping.
@@arbalest327 yeah bro ow 1 never had any counter swapping
@@Johnsmith36346are we really arguing that counterswapping was worse in overwatch 1? did you play?
@@justinmaheelzay9650 It had the same effect and was used just as often
Holy cinema dialogue!
This 3 hour long debate is a treat to watch with some food.
Find me ONE single vod of someone proposing removing a tank before the 5v5 ow2 announcement. It didnt exist. Thats just how dubious it is that people started shilling for it just to kiss the devs asses.
The only thing Jake convinced me so far is dps players dont deserve opinions
Lmaooo
Lmfao for real dude like wtf
I don't even consider myself a "dps player" anymore but I was a dps main in ow1, and I DISOWN THIS GUY lmfao,
dps was more fun in ow1.
Support was more fun in ow1.
TANK, was obviously more fun in ow1.
Bring back ow1 (6v6 because we'll never get that precious ow1 engine back :(
I was honestly a 5v5 enjoyer before this podcast and thought it was way better, hearing the arguments for 6v6 in this podcast changed my mind it does sound way better to me. I do believe we should have tried different balancing or reworks now. Playing tank I do feel locked to the flavor of the month or their counter otherwise I lose, which has completely ruined the role for me and alot others I believe. I think losing one roles enjoyment entirely makes the 5v5 argument worse unless balance or reworks are able to change that feeling.
Im happy theres some people in this Community with an Open Mind.
The ultimate factual argument is still too few people queued for tank in OW1. This is the point Jake makes. Tank was on average much less fun to play - you see this in all games with tank roles. By making it 1 tank, that now can do a lot more, especially do damage and kill stuff - be a threat, it is MUCH more fun. By going back to 2 tanks in 6v6 you will have to nerf the tanks back into not being fun and too few ppl will queue for them. The positive result of removing 1 tank outweighs the loss of interactions between 2 tanks and the 'off-tank' role.
@@phoenixtorment5735
You have to account for OW1 being basically already on its deathbed when RoleQ released.
RoleQ released August 2019, back then Qtimes were decent.
It only got bad after OW2 got announced and blizzard stopped delievering content to the game.
We didnt have New Heroes, Maps, Modes.
No new patches to shake up the very very boring 2x Shield meta.
And the biggest change OW2 brought F2P.
Just the fact alone that OW2 is F2P, has new monthly content and a meta that isnt stale makes its playerbase bigger.
The fact that Qtimes in 5v5 (where you need 1 less tank per team) as as worse as back then just tells us people hate tank in 5v5 even more.
I 100% believe a healthy 6v6 with new content, new patches and all the content OW2 got, would have good Qtimes, because people liked playing tank back then way more, but the meta was just shit.
@phoenixtorment5735
OW1 tank sucked due to cc's. Plan and simple. There's also the argument that tanks just died if you didn't play perfectly; the exact same happens in OW2.
Queue times were lower for tank when the cc's weren't around at the beginning of OW2.
Now it's OW1 but you don't have your off tank to help you anymore.
@@highheart4300 Qtimes were low at the beginning of OW2 because we went F2P, got new content and the gamd felt fresh for the first time in years.
Adding Millions of Players to the game does tend to lower Qs. Im sure many people had fun to play Tank and not have to play against/as Orisa/Sigma though so ill give you that
I agree that CCs were bad in OW1, but a like Doompunch -> Sleep -> Hack Combo can still happen in 5v5, its less CC yes but youre also the Solo Tank who will have to take the CCs in without an off tank.
Also, if 6v6 got the care it deserved, Sombra, Brig, Orisa all should have gotten a CC Reduction/Rework in OW1
Im sad that we couldnt even see what a well balanced RoleQ looks like because they release it and instantly ababdon the gamr for OW2. They didnt even bother to nerf 2x Shield, they had a Orisa Rework ready since atleast mid 2021 i assume and didnt add it to OW1 which would have made the game way more enjoyable
Infact id go as far as saying in 6v6 life weaver gives more flex options for the second tank to make more diverse off picks
yeah it's hard to say what's better now with all the added utility. You'd really need both running in the game to be able to compare
No one want to play main tank.
@@khalid5652ding ding. This guy remembers. God these top 10 tank players coping acting like people that arent gods at the role actually wanted to play it is hilarious.
@@khalid5652 nahhh main tank was the best,you just remeber it wrong
jake constantly contradicted himself and then would look at hawk like hes crazy lol
Hawk was saying good points every time
@@reddeadcobra8295 he was kinda not cohesive enough for this, but yeah he was right on some things and I want 6v6 back lol
Holy shit. I wish I was there. I would verbally annihilate these 5v5 stans. I always win the arguments I have with myself in the shower. (6v6 wasn’t better, 2 tanks WAS better.)
One of the core reasons 6v6 was better, is specifically because the game benefits from the strongest synergy being the tank synergy. Why? Because tanks are what establish the frontline, the team anchor, and through this you get order in the match. You have to respect that tank frontline, because if you disregard it, it will plow through you. This means everyone can't just run around finding their own 1v1's without having to be very calculated and skilled in doing so, knowing when to press and take angles, how to position, how to fall back etc. The frontline that tank synergy created, was singlehandedly what gave order to the otherwise chaotic nature of a hero shooter like Overwatch.
This is where I disagree the most with Jake (and to a degree AVRL). Jake makes the example of Ana not being able to go into Winston's bubble and sleep him, because he is also bubbled by Zarya to negate cc. Why is that a bad thing? It's actually the exact opposite, it's a benefit, because it means that the Ana has to respect the range of Winston's leap, and instead of countering with basic ability use, the Ana instead has to learn good positioning and play in accordance to the threat level of a bubbled Winston. Forward to OW2, and the Ana can now give a rat's ass about positioning, because now there is nothing to stop her from countering the Winston no matter where on the map the Ana plays from - and this in turn means the Ana doesn't have to respect frontlines, angles, or anything of the sort unless it's a coordinated dive where she draws attention from multiple enemies, which is far less likely. So now the Ana has the freedom to just run around the map like it's a death match, not care about positioning, out-ability the tank trying to press her, and basically do whatever tf she wants. Now add this to every player doing whatever tf they want, and you get that nature of 5 1v1's happening every fight, which makes it more likely that someone does something dumb because there is nothing stopping them from getting into dumb situations due to the natural chaos that the lack of an established frontline presents. You're far more likely to run into some dumb rng outcome because everyone is just running round doing their thing regardless of what the tank is doing, because the tank doesn't really matter anymore. The supports matter, and the supports can not form a frontline.
In OW1 you would always try to follow your tank duo wherever they went, because they represented such a strong spearhead that if you didn't follow them, you'd most likely get fucked by the enemy team. At the very least you would be following your main tank if the off is a Roadhog doing his thing. In OW2 there is zero incentive to follow your tank, because there is no exponentially strong spearhead on the enemy team to be afraid of. You can afford to be on an eternal flank as S76 because nobody can ever punish you for it to an equal degree of the value you're already getting. There is no off-tank to challenge you when you intrude on enemy space. At most you will find yourself in a 1v1 with a dps or support, leading to a 50/50 outcome that is chaotic because no side is objectively favored in any challenge, and this is why so many fights feel like steam-roll coinflips. You aren't incentivized to respect any particular force on the opposing team, so you just do what you want and anarchy creates chaos by nature.
In OW1, the pre-fight exchange of abilities was actually a key part of why there was order, rather than chaos. It filtered out a lot of the rng outcomes associated with anarchistic gameplay, by having a sort of "forced" exchange of resources before hard impact is dealt. It makes things go from 0-30-60-100 in a gradual manner, also giving time to assess situations and adapt fluidly. In OW2 you don't have this transition, instead you go from 0-100 in an instant and there is no chance to adapt to rng, because rng now causes that 100% spike, rather than a 30% spike.
Yea ok buddy, come back to me when you have a solution for the pinball CC turbo ass gameplay that playing tank in OW1 was.
“Just balance better lmao”
@@why8642 what argument is speaking against having passives in OW1? or removing cc? In what world are the points you make not fixable?
@@why8642 Reworking most of the CC would do the job.. and look and behold, we already did that. What are you complaining about?
@@Real_MisterSir but we wouldn’t have, if it was 6v6 you would still have the boops and 1 more tank with CC spamming you down.
And in a 6v6 environment with no cass/brig stun what are you gonna do about the 2 dive tanks?
All of the solutions proposed for “fixing” 6v6 are half-baked and fail to consider the side effects, wether it’d be splitting shield tanks and non-shield tanks(splitting an already small tank player base), removing all non-tank cc(mobility heroes run wild), just gut tank abilities so having two of them isn’t as powerful(they’ll be worse/boring as standalone designs), these come with massive negatives.
5v5 creates a set identity for tanks moving forward: you are the big guy that nobody wants to mess with alone, you damn near need an army to take you down. This is more tuneable/balanceable than any 6v6 solution ever was.
And also to even imply that positioning matters less in OW2 is laughable, in OW1 most of it was you sitting in deathballs spamming abilities at each other.
Positioning is super important, you just have more options of where to stand to have an impact and make more plays.
5v5 isn’t perfect but as someone that played tank since I was damn near forced to because of queue times I’d take it over 6v6 any day of the week
@@why8642 Says who? Literally, says who??
If we were able to remove cc spam for OW2, then what is the barrier for acknowledging OW1 could have done the exact same thing with 6v6? The 6 player format shifting to 5 was not what made this possible. What made it possible was that the devs had been saving these changes for years because they knew it would add to the selling point of OW2 when it eventually was going to launch. There is a reason no major overhauls were made post role lock - it's not because they couldn't do it, it was because they chose not to do it, regardless of the team format.
What stops dive is having equally balanced alternatives, like brawl, being viable. But brawl was the one most affected by CC because you had the limitation of moving your ass linearly from one place to another over time, whereas Dive could bypass this. Besides, Dive was the comp that took most skill to get peak value out of, it's one of the reasons hybrid and double bubble became go-to comps because they were easier to play, simple as that. Actual dive was already soft countered by pure skill check alone.
The 4v4 argument is the total kill-shot to any 5v5er.
that’s so funny because earlier I was thinking “Blizzard will go 4v4 to fix the insane healing/immortality in the game before admitting that 6v6 was better and easily fixable compared to 5v5”😭😭😭 and then DPS or dualist healers would run absolutely rampant and they’d just have to make this Call of Duty🤣
@@itsbeeva lmao that'd be crazy but funny
I agree with Sams points. Its subjective whether you enjoyed 6v6 or 5v5 but in taking out that extra tank you took out flexibility and options in the tank role. From a casual players perspective barring "meta" I enjoyed trying goofy stuff with my friends and enjoyed seeing different combinations of tanks could do. I would argue with all the OW2 changes and addition of all the other heroes it would be a blast still.
I think if anything removing a tank made it less appealing to casuals bc now that 1 tank has cover more responsibilities. With every other role the responsibility is split between two. I asked several friends who started with OW2 and most of them avoid tank for that reason.
The tank role doesn't need weenies in the role anyway. People that insist the role be made fun in OW don't understand the role in its entirety.
It's the least understood role in and outside of OW. No reason to coddle new players by promising an easy to learn role. It isn't. People leave the role because they don't understand their function and THAT feels bad.
@@josephreynolds2401 Damn son. Sounds like the devs appealing to you directly makes the game less fun.
@@josephreynolds2401And this is EXACTLY why we have a tank shortage. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to essentially bear the responsibility of 2 players. It doesn't matter how you feel the role should be played, people have expressed they don't enjoy that kind of pressure and the numbers reflect it. This problem affects everyone, not just tank players.
@@Cms7899 I think both sides need to man up. Tank players don't understand their assignment and get by on HP and circumstantial factors. Support players want to not die, even though their role is meant to be equally as easy to kill as the damage heroes. Tank has always been lowest population in every role based game, don't try and deflect like the role is in dire straights. It needs changed, the devs won't fix the sticking points. I agree with this. What I dont agree with is role wars. I have quite a few hours on all roles. You've assumed that I'm on a specific side. Big mistake. Every time you make this mistake, talking about Overwatch gets dumber across the board.
No need to be an algorithm warrior.
@@josephreynolds2401 I honestly don't know where you're coming from. First and foremost, this is a game. If it isn't at least modestly fun, people are not going to play. I'm not sure what assumptions you think I made. You literally called tank players weenies. How else am I supposed to interpret that? When top 500 level pro players that understand the game inside and out are complaining about the current state of tank, there's very likely an issue. Regardless of what your personal opinions on the matter are, the community is very divided on the topic and it needs to be addressed by the developers. Also, I don't know what you mean by algorithm warrior. I rarely comment on TH-cam and only do so to engage in discussion.
12:40 they said that tank synergy is stronger than support. Hawk says that support synergy is just as strong or stronger. Avril then goes on to confirm that these comps need tank synergy just as much as support synergy reinforcing and validating Hawk's point......does he know what he's saying?
welp it’s almost been a year and theirs still no light at the end of that tunnel. these 5v5 takes aged like fucking milk but i guess the future of this game is defined by people who say they don’t care about tank
Hearing Jake say “Just flank the Orisa and ignore” is probably the funniest thing so far. Once you flank the Orisa they have a Bap and Illari w/ insane healing and damage with 1 deployable immortality and 1 deployable healing bot to cook you.
Proper 6v6 never had a chance to work because OW1 was basically a beta for most of it’s life. Double shield never got a chance to be fixed as they already gave up the game.
There is also way less pressure in OW2 so snipers and supports can go crazy. And if they do get pressured your team is cooked because you have to split
Okay, but how does that change with 6v6?
Oh right, now they still have literally everything you complained about, plus another tank to also stop you from flanking - as was literally their dedicated job half the time.
So…basically what I’m hearing is the other roles can actually be their roles? And not tank supporting bots? 😭
@@PrometheusXV ? You should reread what I said. I basically said saying “just flank” is stupid because the supports will cook you. In OW1 yeah an OT could but that would divide the front and create space.
Now you try and flank the supports just handle it on their own. They can out duel pretty much any dps and when working in tandem are near unstoppable.
@@Gr0ot Support is two roles now dps and support. OW1 support could still have an impact but now they get as many picks as your dps.
Tank is relegated to damage and is only as good as the supports behind you. Not to mentions the counter swap roulette that occurs in high elo. I can’t recall one match in the past 6 months at GM where the tanks haven’t swapped less than 3 times each (unless they were a OTP).
it was so tilting, that they did not immediately dismiss that argument bc jake was also talking about dive exclusively and comparing it to orisa who is a stale brawl tank. Felt relly disingenious to me
I think they should have made separate roles for main tank and off tank. That would have stopped double shield and kept the fun duos.
I hypothesized this before. The queue times would be even worse though, but I would rather do that than queue any more of OW now.
i dont agree,its just limits what characters that can be played together.
somethimes 2 off/main tanks leads to a lot of fun[rein,winston or zarya dva]
@@KURENANI true. But compared to OW2 I will take anything!
@@Mr_BucketHatsame
It would not because Sigma was more of an off-tank.
Man what has the world come to when Samitto is the most grounded, polite of the group. He has by far the best take on the whole situation too. As a DPS mostly player in a little bit of tank 6v6 was so much better. Constantly having to counter swap in overwatch two is infuriating. I literally refuse to play the game after a game or two. I didn’t mind having to pick synergistic charecters in overwatch one. That’s what makes this kind of game different from a typical Fps. There was a team death match game mode that you could play if you wanted anywase. I play overwatch for the team synergy and hero interactions. Overwatch two is just running around and see who gets the first pick. And as a gold rank consistent player double shield was never a problem for too long. Outside of the top ranks players aren’t gonna play orisa sigma cause it’s boring. Most matches. It was just Rinehart Road hog or literally any other random assortment of tanks because people play who they like. And it didn’t feel as punishing for playing the wrong tanks as it does in overwatch two because you weren’t so easily punished with a direct counter. But now in overwatch two even in gold the matchups, feel miserable to play against. If your tank is getting out dual by their tank, the game is awful. It feels borderline unwinnable. There was more room for error in overwatch one because you at least had two tanks someone could lift the load if the other one was slacking. And just naturally when you have more players on each team, you take some of the stress off the individual player. If I’m having an under performing game or an over performing game it’s gonna be evened out more so the matchmake is going to be better. It’s way easier to find a team average for balance the larger the sample size it’s simple science. And plus the supports felt way more Kilbourne overwatch one and they do in overwatch two. Supports are obnoxious to duel against because they have 1 million tools to save themselves. I don’t know I can only bear to play the game for the first couple days of the season at this point. Just my thoughts grammar might be bad. It’s hard to check it on mobile and this was mostly voice to texted lol.
You should have been on the podcast instead of Hawk.. sorry hawk
One thing i couldnt fathom why they dont think of is just make heroes like doom/JQ/Mei a dps like hog back then. A tank cant have speed buff/hp boost ? make her a dps lol
Supports should have tools to save themselves. In fact, this is another issue with 5v5. No peeling from a second Tank means it's required that Supports have tools to survive or Tank/DPS Q times will go back up to 10-15 minutes while Support Q times will be 2 minutes or less again. I'm sorry you DPS wanna cry because they can't just get free kills on Supports like the early days of OW2, but blame 5v5 for that.
@@jorrellrichardson3181Nah I'm not sorry, Hawk completely derailed this whole podcast and turned it into a waste of 3 hours
@@MefoWhoI think the "tank can't have a speed boost" argument is dumb anyway.
He couldn't provide an actual reason he just doesn't like the idea of having to adjust how he thinks for five seconds.
We've got a tank who can deploy an instant 200hp onto anyone in their LoS and a support who can be borderline omnipresent in a teamfight with a 100% uptime speed boost, but god forbid you get a few seconds of speed from a tank CD
I love how Jake's argument is "the top players should have a miserable experience" instead of just admitting that 5v5 is worse than 6v6.
Dude exactly
Blizzard should definitely make a legacy mode in arcade of 6v6, just though in a 2nd tank in there and see what happens
Never thought I would be relieved and excited for samito to start talking out of anyone he seems like the only one with well thought out constructive things to say
When they are defending 5v5 with the fact that u were tied to ur tank duo for what u pick it is worse now in 5v5 because u don’t get to pick what u want it is ether pick the 1 meta hero or be counter swapping constantly
I think a lot of why they defend 5v5 was with orisa but now that she doesn’t have a shield I think nose of there arguments are really valid because balance changed that
19:02 that shows support power creep not tank being op
41:15 tank definitely feels way more like don’t make mistakes because idk how sitting at a corner not doing anything only pressing buttons when you need to definitely doesn’t sound like making plays to me
45:42 I think if 2 tanks jump on one person then they should be able to win that and the tanks job is to take space so if you are a tank and you jump on something and you don’t pose a threat for them to respect you and you just die then you can’t do your job and you feel hopeless and powerless
1:23:48 junker queen would fit very well in 6v6 she would be like a more team based roadhog and I think it was emong I could be wrong that did a custom game to make it 6v6 and said it was really fun and he makes and aoe speed sound like this crazy different thing like Lucio never existed
2:15:18 me as well
There are custom games like these
That change needed to happen because they lost a tank. It's not power creep of support. If the supports had their normal OW1 healing than the 1 Tank would explode from 5 people beaming them down.
If you're sitting at a corner not doing something then you are playing the wrong Tank in that scenario. Unless sitting at that corner is causing the enemy to be scared of your abilities.
The issue isn't that two tanks jumping him shouldn't win. It's that there was no gaps to create any value because the Tank synergies prevented that.
Junkerqueen COULD fit into 6v6 but not as she is now. She'd have to be heavily nerfed. OW2 JQ put straight into OW1 with no changes would make her disgusting.
@@Flunksqk each one cherry picks what balance adjustments they want to implement so it's really hard to gauge from a balance- -fun perspective
and every. . . single. . . time i've tried to play one of these, there's never 6 players on each team for more than like 8 seconds. This makes it impossible to experience a complete 6v6 game this way.
@@ReaveIdono so you are saying that supports are stronger because the loss of a tank but that is still power creep
And I agree that at this point in the games balance if the supports has OW1 healing tanks would explode but that is the problem all damage and healing numbers have gone way up and continue to go up that’s why tanks explode so it is way less in your control
but I’m not shire what change you are referring to that had to change
Your 2nd point is that I’m not playing the game right but that’s all you can do if you have watched to contenders matches they would wait so long before making a move because it is so easy to get punished for just trying to move forward and I also want to introduce you to my friend flats a top 500 player that is constantly saying this is what is like
Your 3rd point I’m not sure what you are trying to say by you can’t create any value in any case it is a skill issue but from a tank position that is the value in denying value and creating space forcing you to back up and it will only happen if you are well coordinated and that is just called making a good play in a dps and support perspective you should need to respect the space a tank is occupying unless they are out of position and or have no cooldowns
Your 4th point how would you know for sure she would be discussing in 6v6 she was never in it so there is no way to know for sure if she would be that crazy but if she is simply tune her back when it comes to what I’m assuming you think is so broken her shout because of the team utility but tuning characters back or to the 6v6 format would not make anyone loose their identity
@lancestief1358 It's not power creep. Power creep is when supports such as Life Weaver keeps getting buffed till his target of healing is nigh unkillable even though he was fine after his 1st buffs or so. A change made because the overall design of the game changed, such as removing a tank character whose AOE damage denial ability is exponentially more effective than boosted heal numbers, is not power creep. It's adjusting the healing numbers to account for that. Just like they adjusting the health pools and tank abilities to be able to main tank.
If you're not in a contenders match or in a game with Overwatch league players where everything is being played as optimal as possible then there is someone on the enemy side making a mistake. You just need to either discern what that mistake is with your character. Or change to another tank to force a mistake. But also holding space is the point of a tank. If anything in that scenario someone on your team isn't doing their job as best they could.
What I'm saying is, it's not a skill issue for Jake when two tanks denies so much space that your only option is to stand behind your ally tanks and hope the enemy tanks are bad at cycling their damage mitigation skills. There's no room allowed for a DPS or even Support to push up or take a flank angle using the geometry to try and express their skill with their character because Dva is there to deny it with Matrix. I barely play her and my team has never died to Flank High Noon or 76 popping out of nowhere and using Visor because I can mark them easily with very low skill required. With 1 tank. If I draw her in with a flank Visor. My team can capitalize on her not being on the front line and kill her team.
It not just her shout that would make her over tuned. It's her healing she gets from bleeds. It's her damage potential. It's her displacing potential. It's her ability to prevent healing with her Ultimate. A character like that should never be in OW1 as that's far too much value at any numbers point to also have another tank that offsets her weaknesses and adds more value to her that ramps up exponentially depending on how the synergieswould work with cool downs. The simple move to 1 tank has allowed them to go crazy on abilities with JQ and for her to not feel u beatable. At best she could have been a glass cannon Tank with 175-225 health if all those abilities would remain on 1 character.
A bunch of knuckle daggers, brainless COD junkies with zero clue of what the real issues are.
Hawk is a slayer & no one had answers for him.
What a cast. Appreciate you and the content SVB!
I’m very aware of trying to avoid viewing things with rose tinted glasses, but 6v6 seems better in just so many ways. There can be more variety in metas and more tanks can become more or less viable at different times, rather than pretty much just Winston all the time and some of the new tanks. Some of the old tanks like Dva and Zarya just feel kind of awkward and very niche in OW2, so much that their play time, at least in high end competitive play, looks like it will never be very high unless they get buffed way too much.
Also the synergy between tanks like rein and zarya and Winston and Dva are sorely missed, with tank now feeling like just a big dps that is mostly a bullet sponge. Not sure who brought it up, but with tanks having more HP, and often both supports just spamming heals into that ONE tank, it’s weird bcuz a sometimes optimal way to play is to just ignore the massive tank in order to focus on other more squishy targets, even more so than in OW1. With the way 5v5 is, it seems like all future tanks are going to have to be built as generalists, which IMO will lead ranks to just feel like more of the same, they can’t experiment with much bcuz all the tanks have to self sustain, do at least mid range damage and have similar ultimates. Ram’s ult is just so lame
TLDR Tank is just not as fun, there’s no synergy and it seems like the range of actually viable tanks is actually lower in 5v5
Is shooting at a high health tank that has been bap lamped, suzued, heal dumped, or life gripped not also a doubled or tripled shielded meta? We still get long q times for a 10 or 15 minute game. The tank is either unkillable or is being hard countered, abilites like suzu, imo field, and life grip are saving even more poor decision making plays whilest encourging poor decision making plays. At this point i only run 6v6 with my friends. Its sad to see this state of the game compared its launch or october of 2020.
the thing that samito gets that avrl and Jake don't is that 5v5 removed the thing that made overwatch the game we all fell in love with. it's not even close to the same game, and samito is the only one who is accurately explaining that 5v5 is just straight up not as fun as 6v6 was
sams 100%right. AVRL and his "im right your wrong" attitude ticked me off a little...
Im part of the 5v5 crowd, i havent watch yet but having AVRL and Jake gives me no hope, AVRL trys to be objective with subjective takes and jakes need someone to check the cocking
@@diegocorvalan5435wonder what makes ppl go with the 5vs5 crowd, though I feel like it's mostly dps players that want 5vs5
AVRL tried to communicate a single point throughout the entire video and got a heated response that didn't address what he said at all. So he said it again, made the other dude mad again. He's right and he should say it.
Nah I'm a DPS main and I prefer 6v6 for sure.@@Glizzyman
@@Glizzyman those of us that played 6v6 don't want double-shield back. There is a simple solution though. Bring back 6v6, split tank and support into main and off roles, and add hero bans.
I just had this thought, but if Flats was brought into this specific debate, it would have been funny as hell.
Because he wouldn't be on either side of Team 6v6 or Team 5v5 in this debate.
Instead, he would have interjected at each moment that tanks were mentioned just to get his feelings & woes out there, as if it were a therapy session.
SVB literally brings people on so they have a platform to vent like a therapy session
I find it funny how AVRL and Jake are talking about how ridiculous it would be to have to rework tanks to fit into overwatch 1's 6v6 format and risk "losing their identity. You mean like we did for 5v5 ??? lmfao (where countless casualities have occured in terms of identity) now we are even at a time where they are talking about reworking a fan faborite character like rein as if rein is the problem... These people are insane😂
Going through this podcast, they each listed out every single complaint I had or saw from the general players within my matches, during OW1 & during OW2.
Watching this podcast made me feel like I was reliving the days I would thoroughly describe the issues of OW1 during every major phase of the format or during major changes of heroes, on the forums.
Team 5v5 & Team 6v6 were literally using every issue I came up with, as an argument against the other, when in reality, each of these problems cannot be looked at as a whole, but rather as individually isolated events.
Each change, in the moment, were made with the purpose to solve a problem that the broader player base had in the game.
(Even if I was alone in the camp of "these changes to remove the particular things are bad, & there are better solutions I have presented".)
- - - - - - - - - - -
One thing I have learned from posting all these issues onto the forums back in the day, that everyone in this podcast episode mentioned, is that "in the moment of the problem" if you claim that there are solutions to that problem & also present a solution that seems fair & potentially keeping the fun the hero in question of that particular problem, then everyone will deny your solution & demand for that particular hero or entire role of heroes to be straight nerfed, without even batting an eye to the "level of fun" that is being removed from just straight nerfing the hero or entire role.
Even though that's the OW Forum experience, I would come across many players in-game complaining & demanding the same things, whenever they end up playing against or with whatever is the problematic thing in that moment.
Then, after those changes that the player base demands go through, some of those same people (along with new people popping up) start complaining about how the game suddenly feels less fun to play.
And a few months after the change, they claim that the change wasn't needed & blame the dev team, whenever those particular changes were demanded.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
At that point, I always think to myself, "you guys are fighting the fight when it's too late. You guys got what you asked for, and now we all suffer a less fun experience after each change, in terms of the player dynamics of how teammates will bring value, from match to match."
Literally, from every nerf to every major game change that took features away, they all had solutions that would have reduced the pain points of OW1, while bringing new way to have fun with the same heroes, in the same format, when speaking of each particular problem during each format change.
(Though, I'm not gonna lie, every post launch hero in OW1 made the game feel worse to play, as they were straight hard counters to high skilled heroes. Brig, Moira, & Doom being the biggest offenders, as I saw so many players in my matches & outside of the game complain about being easily killed by them VS. how much effort was needed to just survive against them, during their respective releases.)
I fully agree that every new hero they added somehow made the game worse in one way or another over time.
- Ana was buffed too soon and too far
- Sombra was a shitty concept from the start
- Doom's kit was going to create problems no matter how you balance it.
- Orisa needed an entire rework to function in a healthy way
- Moira was made to be the most basic entry level possible so overall she is stuck being meh.
- Brig was made as an answer to a problem that needed balancing and not a new hero to stomp it out.
- Sigma should never have had a shield that flexible with the other tools in his kit. His shield should of been like Rammatras
- Wrecking ball is a bit niche but its ok.
- Echo is the only one I have no real issue with.
Avrl and Jake arguing in bad faith 2:13:00 then telling Sam he was made my blood boil
Avrl and Jake really losing the plot in this part of podcast
2:19:00 holy shit stop bringing up open que it doesn't even negate the cost argument Holy fuck
Avril and jake are so impatient, and unpolite they always want to monopolise the discussion
@@nufcjoker9057 Jake, maybe. But AVRL was right. When you start going down the "the playstyle that was lost" arguments, that basically applies to ANY change to the game. Especially big ones like Role Locks, Hero Limits, etc.. It sucks that Rein/Zarya and Winston/Dva play was lost, but at the same time, so was the Sigma/Ball and Double Shield combos that people absolutely despised.
@@crownysuccubus1524 The way i understood Sam's argument tho was, that there is now an archetype Tank Playstyle and Any Tank deviating from that Archetype is basically fucked. Sure You're now free on DPS and that's very fun but you are now even more caged than before on tank, to be that frontline. Ball is basically unplayable not only bc of cc but also bc your Team loses by default for nto having a frontline Tank. Even THE Dive Tank Winston is playing much more brawly in todays OW2 environment.
OW2 is oppressive in forcing it's Playstyle on to you and we lost all room for creativity bc any time you get creative as The one Tank that's left your entire Team suffers for it.
Majority of the community was in large agreement that role lock needed to happen and even that wasn't lost cause no limits was still in arcade if you prefered that. we don't have 6v6 anywhere in official matchmaking outside of custom games. @@crownysuccubus1524
Can we get this debate with other people, keep sam tho, we kinda got an overley excited duo with AVRL Jake
Im just happy there is atleast one person not paid to sing blizzards praises this time
@@ironman1458imagine thinking just because your job is overwatch you have to support 5v5
Jake and AVRL were too firm and opposing on this debate. Sam and Hawk brought way more points to the table
@@reddeadcobra8295samito and hawk didn't bring many points at all, I'm not sure why you think otherwise
I think the 5v5 side loses a lot of legitimacy by insisting on the “optimal play” of tank synergies in OW1. How often does that happen outside of top play? And that’s nothing compared to how easy it is to get value from 1 tank in OW2 without playing optimally. You just spam CDs.
Tanks diving the backline in OW1 had a response in peel, so the whole getting run over argument is overstated.
Finally, you can for sure get most tank combos to work again outside of top play. Focusing on that aspect is short sighted. The game had fewer tanks, the off tank role was not balanced properly, and at least it required skill in most metas (double shield aside).
Exactly, the large majority of games in overwatch 1 were not optimized, because that’s just how it works. People play what they like and what is fun, and if what they think is fun is a shitty tank duo it’s gonna happen
Personally I find it hard to defend 5x5 personally. Thinking the devs can fix the tank balance in 5v5 but not 6v6 is a joke when they don’t have a PvE mode to worry about anymore
Ikr they wont do all the things 5v5 needs to be good, just go back to 6v6 we do not trust you anymore.
5v5 was symbolic. It did absolutely nothing to fix core issues but made a big show out of sacrificing off-tanks to the sun god and acting like that did anything
They never had a pve game to worry about
@@teejay1646 lmao what a good way to put it 🤝
@@HarlHarlson okay it got canceled but it was taking up their time for awhile
From an OW1 main tank player's perspective (rein, winston, and sig):
Whatever may be better for the health of the game, I have less fun in OW2. The reason for this is because I can't duo tank. Duo tanking was so incredibly fun to me and I don't think anything came close. The synergy required in duo tanking required great comms, which I was completely fine with. Playing rein with my zarya friend, or winston with my dva friend, etc. was the reason I found the game fun. Combining abilities and synergizing was why I had fun.
In OW2, there are very few times when I feel like my tank matchup is fair, and it's not just because of tank balance. Tank has genuinely turned into a game of rock paper scissors, where counterswapping is necessary or you are just throwing. And the occasional match where me and the other tank stick to the same hero, it now depends on who has the more supporting healers. If either one of us has certain heroes or doesn't have others (such as having a mercy when the other team has main heal zen or double main heals), I feel helpless.
Samito is such a smart person.
He is way smarter than these 5v5ers
@@魚-c3d lmfao ur not wrong that just sounds funny
I want to see this version of Sam more often in his own streams
Bro 5v5 defenders like AVRL and Jake are more stubborn. Sam and hawk are brining up valid points. But they’re just ignore all of them lmao. 5v5 is already a year old and still proves is can’t be balanced.
Tank synergies were too strong/important.
CP: They were also the most satisfying and fun
When one tank picks X, you need to pick Y or Z to actually go well together.
CP: In OW2, either there is a tank so oppressive that not picking it is nearly throwing, or your opponent picked X so you can either play X for the mirror or play Y to counter and otherwise you lose.
If they divide tank into main and off tank they can prevent double shield. The only problematic one is ball because he is so fluid between those rolls. 😎 (yeah I know, "roles")
I get there could be queue time issues, but we already have them. We have had them. When have we NOT had them?
Ball is the most "off tank" tank what are u on about
Just annecdotally from my OW1 experience, the ratio of OT to MT would be like 3:1. And that's not even taking to account how few tank players there are to start with. Queue times would go THROUGH THE ROOF.
Nah que times for me right now are amazing and they were terrible in 2022 in ow1. Went from 15 min que to 1 min que
I don't agree with Jake saying tanks have specific synergy that works. That's really only at the highest levels, you can play any 2 tanks in lower ranks even Doom + Ball
Ow2 is a pure money grab. They made it 5v5 so they could call it ow2 and impliment this new crappy payment system for battlepass skins etc. Ow1 was way better.6v6 is better
Jake and Avril intentionally ignoring the argument, interrupting and being insulting at points took away from the debate. Acting like 6v6 was unfixable when they diverted 2 years of dev time for ow2 is insane.
Jake wants overwatch to be cod
Lmfao for real dude I can literally just feel it with the points he uses and how he says tanks weren't killable in ow1, like how tf are you gonna say that?? Most dps just had straight up higher (damage) numbers, soldier, reaper, genji, bastion etc, AND TANKS HAD LESS HEALTH and dude omfg him saying 'a winston dva jumping an ana is broken she can't do anything' is the most braindead shit I swear he's either secretly silver or has never paid attention to what goes on with his team, the ana can get away/live with lucio speed, moira healing, zen orb, mercy beam, like dude it's not like the ana is ALONE, or is just gonna sit there and take it up the ass??? Lmfao oh my lord these guys are braindead
I just let out most of my thoughts about this debate in one comment sorry LMAO that was a rant
If u actually think u can play what ever u want in low rank and not get counter picked then it really just shows how disconnected the high ranked players are from the low ones
AND TO CAP IT ALL OFF JAKE MAKES THE OPEN CUE ARGUEMENT IN HIS CLOSING ARGUEMETS HOLY SHIT!!!
LMFAO
I used to be a hardcore OW1 player and now I only play very casually with other friends and we're never in comp. Samito is 100% right on the casual's players perspective throughout the debate, on pretty much everything. We all loved the fun team comps we ran and made it more flexible for everyone's favorite play-styles, and even if we lost, it was still enjoyable. I wish they listened and believed Samito more there in-terms of the benefits to the common player in 6v6
99% of Overwatch content creators have no clue what lower level gameplay is like. It's been an issue since 2017. When the game first came out, these high elo biases weren't prevalent yet, but after a year, it was pretty much consensus that anyone below Masters was just playing the game wrong, and should be ignored entirely.
I've heard from more than a dozen high elo creators that "if the game is balanced for top level, it'll automatically be better balanced in silver and gold."
Several patches have proven this absolutely wrong. Remember when Reaper was an unkillable god in gold? I do. Remember when Moira got 5 gold medals every game in silver? I remember.
Like Sam said, "Everything happens in low level games."
bro what??? thats nothing like my experience. Fun comps? Playstyles? I've never experienced that it's been "instanlock my hero" and like 1 person filling. started at silver now diamond. Pretty much exact same. I mean good for you, but I don't think "we all Loved" whatever you're talking about. TBH statistically, I don't think much of us have ever experienced that at all not to mention "we love it". Plus whatever random comp your team picks is compounded if the enemy picks a better one. I mean you can like whatever you want, but don't lump me in with that fantasy lol we DID NOT all love that.
@@ElmoRitter hahaha "we" means me and my friends, the majority of the player base who don't go posting online about the game every second. We would usually have one rando and coordinated our own hero's and abilities to play, and it was honestly frustrating when we lost, but it was so much rewarding when we won, that's why we kept playing. Matched coordination was exciting as a group, but not the same experience as solo for sure, if your team doesn't understand game mechanics. I just miss that level of required synergy between teammates. But that doesn't matter, majority of my friend's liked playing OW1 more than OW2, so Samito is still right. Also no statistic exists for this niche unless you're on a subreddit or something, which isn't a good representation of the entire player base who probably don't use reddit like that. I don't. Friends don't. So "statistics" don't work in this case. The internet is full of angry people who complain about anything and everything, so there's no balance between the loud minority here and majority of the player base. Sorry if your experience was poor in OW1, we should be blaming the CEO's lack of care, instead of the overworked developers who are forced to build and scrap projects at his whim. RIP devs
@@ElmoRitter Teamwork>Compsynergy
brilliant@@KURENANI
Best debate by far, regardless of what side you're on. I always enjoy a healthy debate done respectfully such as this one, thank you SVB and everyone who participated
All due respect for the guests on the podcast, I really liked this one. SVB truly is a goated host for keeping this thoroughly chaotic but very entertaining debate in check. However, I was disappointed that there was no talk about what 6v6 would actually look like in Overwatch 2, funnily enough considering how many hypothetical situations were raised. I'm kind of astounded actually as to how much everyone totally missed this point.
There was lots of comparisons to OLD 6v6 vs NEW 5v5, but none of a NEW 6v6. Makes me wonder if comps running two tanks with a roster including Ramattra, Junker Queen, reworked Orisa and Tank Doomfist could have affected the Double Shield meta which everyone seemed to be reliving their PTSD mentioning.
One of the cruxes of Double Shield - Orisa - is now gone (well, her shield is anyways), and characters such as Ramattra, at least in my games, can eat heroes such as Brigitte and Sigma alive.
I was waiting with baited breath for this topic to be raised, being a 6v6 debate and all, and whether we should bring it back to a modern Overwatch, but it seems like much of this debate was seeming to lament on the past, about characters and patches that no longer exist. Hawk and AVRL so very nearly touched on it at around 1:29:00 and 1:34:00 respectively, and I'm surprised it wasn't expanded upon by the rest of the cast.
This is just my two pence as a nobody plat/diamond Ramattra main who loved playing Hog and Zarya with his main tank best friend in the old days. It feels a little lonely on the frontline eating all of the CC and my best bud is now behind me struggling to adapt to playing Support and DPS since OW2's launch. Sometimes (often in my dreams when being slept by Ana) I wonder what it would be like with a second, MODERN tank next to me, but unfortunately the topic wasn't made. It would mean the world to me if this point was raised in the future, to hear a professional's take on what a modern 6v6 would look like. That's not to say I want 6v6 or 5v5, I'm not truly on either side - I kinda just want to gather different arguments to from my own decision.
TLDR; I loved this podcast - I really did. But if you're like me and wondering what 6v6 would actually look like in OW2, you won't find an answer in this one.