"At least a decade from the fire to any prosecutions." This is not a failure of our justice system - this is the system working exactly as it is meant to.
It doesn’t make it a less appalling but by the usual standards of these things, ten years is actually quick. The victims of the Post Office scandal, Hillsborough or those that received contaminated blood have been waiting even longer for justice. It is hard to have much faith in a system that delays justice until those responsible are long retired or conveniently dead.
One of the additional scandals from this, has been to lumber the cost of updating cladding with leaseholders, not the property owners or councils. From Grenfell itself, to the legacy of UK housing afterwards, it proves that we have a culture of can-kicking and passing all costs down to those who can't afford them, or fight against them.
The thing that I remember is how in the days immediately following the tragedy we at the very least understood enough to identify the problem and how to fix it: the cladding. Nothing was done even after the catastrophe that many had warned would happen, happened. The extent of contempt for the lives of tenants by the landlord class is horrifying.
I remember, people who lived in the most expensive part of this country, complaining about Grenfell residents temporarily living in the same buildings as them. Alot actually said they would bring their flat prices down.
All English politicians work on two principles in cases like these. Delay until those responsible are beyond prosecution and delay until the victims are beyond compensation.
I also think they have failed to call out how london accommidation has been so priced out of most peoples affordability that the councils/ hmo's treated the residents like "you are lucky to have a roof over ur head, its london....put up with it" and they had to as they were priced out of anywhere else. So they had to stay and you just think do these people in goverment/councils have any sense of responsibility. They were paid to take care of people and instead put them in deliberate danger. This has to be criminal. And disgustingly nothing has really changed!
We live in a society where firms don't like regulation not because it's worthless but it's 'inconvenient' to profits. "Health & Safety gone mad!" was a phrase from the media who served to justify cutting costs, increasing profits, and encouraging people to be willing to risk their lives because they were used to 'making life easier'.
Not always the case, clear regulatory control can be seen as a positive too - it means clearly defined do's and don'ts in design and construction. Part of the issue with Grenfell wasn't lack of regulation but lack of clarity, particularly in the definitions of what was permissible in the construction of wall (limited combustibility vs. non-combustible and the complex, misunderstood (and sometimes deliberate obfuscation on) testing standards/regimes etc.) For sure some firms (Kingpsan, Celotex and Arconic) exploited that confusion and made at best misleading, at worst deliberate mis-information (lying).
@@wyvernwood5675 I agree. But the problem is when firms see regulations are to be circumvented or ignored all together. Clarity? "This stuff cannot be used." "It's cheaper than the required." "Oh, okay then."
It took an inquiry to find this out? The absolute rot of journalism and government who will cover endlessly for all the corporates involved is the only thing that will come out of another decade of b/s legal proceedings. Our moral bankruptcy is staggering.
Under David Cameron, it was one regulation in two regulations out. Speaking of whom, Cameron hasn't said a word since the report came out. Par for the course for an Old Etonian. They crave power but abhor the responsibilities that come with it.
It should also be noted that at the same time that Kensington and Chelsea were scrimping on the cost of the cladding, they were giving back £100 to all residents who paid their tax in full.
It would bankrupt them and we need building material manufacturers to build houses. Some people should go to jail. The companies should get a large fine. But they need to find a way to spread the cost of fixing this problem amongst a wide variety of negligent businesses. Ultimately the government may have to pay to fix some of the buildings....and hopefully recoup the money from a levy on building companies, insurers, etc etc. This won't be an easy or cheap fix.
C’mon, I sympathise with you, we have had so many obviously self seeking people “governing” us. Listen to the pragmatic nature of the type of people with ministerial responsibility now. They have the kind of “lived experience” that politicians need to make effective decisions. But please, no sloppy and lazy statements
Ms Elcock’s requests sound eminently reasonable to me. I hope and pray that the current government listens and responds appropriately, allowing the chips to fall where they may, without dodging any of this. At this stage of a new government, this will write future of the Labour Party in stone. Certainly for this Parliament.
Teresa May the day after the fire deliberately initiated a public inquiry. Which made those responsible, very difficult to be criminally prosecuted. Pure evil. This is what happens when you have a free market economy.
Took me about six hours to work out exactly what the cause was. Interesting that the product websites went offline by mid day. London has 102 fire stations. They would have to survey 20 tower blocks a day every day for a year just to become familiar with each building and its risks. Then the Tories cut Fire and Rescue across the country. Johnson cut ten stations. Typical.
One can argue about the political failings at national government level, but the real blame lies a) with those who fitted that cladding knowing that it was probably unsafe for that purpose, and b) those in Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council who allowed this cladding to be fitted without first establishing that it was safe. OK, they were probably misled by those who fitted the cladding, but it is a council’s responsibility to ensure its buildings are fit for purpose and are safe. But it is national government’s responsibility to ensure that building materials, wherever they are used, are safe.
Shocking. The findings are not just relevant to tower blocks. The failed regulatory regime and perverse motivations for the manufacturers that led to unsafe materials being used in tower blocks - apply to all UK building construction. The companies criticised in the report supply many building products to be used in all sorts of buildings - houses, schools, hospitals, . Can we have any confidence that they are safe?
So many factors in this that are often overlooked, who is paying for this negligence? It's the tenants and leaseholders, that's who. Is it the rogue developers, builders, nominated building control officers, insurers, managing agents, the answer to this is a big fat NO, it's us who have no voice. What's happening now is that leaseholders are paying an extortionate amount in insurance and building safety act works, who is monitoring these charlatans doing the building safety works? Between 10-20 billion per year is wasted service charges, that's an underestimate as well, who is hoovering up that money............
I have worked in the social and private housing sectors and other areas employment. Legislation on safety has been hard won and is based on the idea that each person is equal. So, "do to others as you would have them do to you", and keep mutual respect on that basis. The trouble is, a human tendency to self interest and a sense of superiority over that basic concept and over other real lives and environments means that "others" become expendable, and objects, im the eyes and practices of certain people who have positions of responsibility or power. Against such inequitable behaviour we pressurise and fight for safety and health standards and accountability.
You know the riots earlier this summer? I do not condone violence.. not now and not ever.. that said I would have understood if people rioted at the companies and governments that allowed Grenfell and other cladding fires to happen.
I've come across the product claims of one of the insulation manufacturers involved. Though unrelated to fire safety I know that claims about physical and chemical properties were untrue and flatly contradicted by evidence, yet they repeated them in literature and in a trade association technical bulletin. Not at all surprised by the dishonesty in pursuit of profit.
If UK had complied with EU cladding regulations, Grenfell could not have happened. We are sick of lifesaving regulations being treated as a joke and just "red tape" when they are a matter of life and death. It IS the attitude of Tory Eurosceptics that the rules dont apply to them.
To note, there are aluminium panel claddings on the market that on the surface look identical but differ in their cores- and it is the cores that are either flammable or inflammable.
Can someone who has read the report please name all the companies involved? I know Rayner has said that they wouldn't be able to get anymore contracts with councils, which is quite sobering to think those companies have been able to operate for the last 7 years, but i'm relieved that she's taken that measure. Yet those companies will probably be able to operate in the other markets, whether directly to non-council consumers in Britain or abroad...
Everyone ought to know better, it's multilevel human ignorance and deception, professionals claiming rewards and status yet denying the fundamental truth of their culpability, and sadly that includes reporters who don't inquire of their self.
Could you please say something about the economist, Richard J Murphy‘s TH-cam videos about the Labour Party‘s “black hole”! It seems like he’s on a mission and I am wondering if this is having any effect. His videos are certainly hard-hitting and very educational!
What is wrong with having a sombre episode?! It's almost like viewers are being treated like children. Don't scare the little ones....give them an ice cream.... even though their parents just died in a car crash!
Ignoring that the main reason the residents were ignored was because of race and class. If they were the ricjh whote residents accross the road, this would never have happened.
@urbanimage Thanks for letting us know Emily is all heart George Osborne has some very serious alligations against him and a young lady while Chancellor
The entirely predictable consequences of Thatcherism come home to roost.
"At least a decade from the fire to any prosecutions."
This is not a failure of our justice system - this is the system working exactly as it is meant to.
It doesn’t make it a less appalling but by the usual standards of these things, ten years is actually quick. The victims of the Post Office scandal, Hillsborough or those that received contaminated blood have been waiting even longer for justice. It is hard to have much faith in a system that delays justice until those responsible are long retired or conveniently dead.
@@GorgeDawes I agree totally. The Tory mentality gave reign for businesses to exploit the population
One of the additional scandals from this, has been to lumber the cost of updating cladding with leaseholders, not the property owners or councils. From Grenfell itself, to the legacy of UK housing afterwards, it proves that we have a culture of can-kicking and passing all costs down to those who can't afford them, or fight against them.
The thing that I remember is how in the days immediately following the tragedy we at the very least understood enough to identify the problem and how to fix it: the cladding. Nothing was done even after the catastrophe that many had warned would happen, happened. The extent of contempt for the lives of tenants by the landlord class is horrifying.
I remember, people who lived in the most expensive part of this country, complaining about Grenfell residents temporarily living in the same buildings as them. Alot actually said they would bring their flat prices down.
The idea that the phrase 'inflammable cladding" actually exists, is mind blowing.
Hope the despicable Pickles gets his come uppence from this. Will never foget his dismissive comment " the polics of envy". An arrogant Tory B.
Too busy eating all the pies. He should face a criminal investigation regardless of its success, if nothing else to send a message to politicians.
All English politicians work on two principles in cases like these. Delay until those responsible are beyond prosecution and delay until the victims are beyond compensation.
I also think they have failed to call out how london accommidation has been so priced out of most peoples affordability that the councils/ hmo's treated the residents like "you are lucky to have a roof over ur head, its london....put up with it" and they had to as they were priced out of anywhere else. So they had to stay and you just think do these people in goverment/councils have any sense of responsibility. They were paid to take care of people and instead put them in deliberate danger. This has to be criminal. And disgustingly nothing has really changed!
We live in a society where firms don't like regulation not because it's worthless but it's 'inconvenient' to profits. "Health & Safety gone mad!" was a phrase from the media who served to justify cutting costs, increasing profits, and encouraging people to be willing to risk their lives because they were used to 'making life easier'.
Not always the case, clear regulatory control can be seen as a positive too - it means clearly defined do's and don'ts in design and construction. Part of the issue with Grenfell wasn't lack of regulation but lack of clarity, particularly in the definitions of what was permissible in the construction of wall (limited combustibility vs. non-combustible and the complex, misunderstood (and sometimes deliberate obfuscation on) testing standards/regimes etc.) For sure some firms (Kingpsan, Celotex and Arconic) exploited that confusion and made at best misleading, at worst deliberate mis-information (lying).
@@wyvernwood5675 I agree. But the problem is when firms see regulations are to be circumvented or ignored all together.
Clarity? "This stuff cannot be used." "It's cheaper than the required." "Oh, okay then."
Brilliant really enjoyed this
It took an inquiry to find this out? The absolute rot of journalism and government who will cover endlessly for all the corporates involved is the only thing that will come out of another decade of b/s legal proceedings. Our moral bankruptcy is staggering.
Under David Cameron, it was one regulation in two regulations out. Speaking of whom, Cameron hasn't said a word since the report came out. Par for the course for an Old Etonian. They crave power but abhor the responsibilities that come with it.
Thanks for posting
It should also be noted that at the same time that Kensington and Chelsea were scrimping on the cost of the cladding, they were giving back £100 to all residents who paid their tax in full.
They should have involved the police from the get-go. This inquiry has only kicked the can down the road for seven years.
Justice delayed, is justice denied.
Can’t the companies who provided the cladding be made to pay compensation? If not, why?
It would bankrupt them and we need building material manufacturers to build houses. Some people should go to jail. The companies should get a large fine. But they need to find a way to spread the cost of fixing this problem amongst a wide variety of negligent businesses. Ultimately the government may have to pay to fix some of the buildings....and hopefully recoup the money from a levy on building companies, insurers, etc etc. This won't be an easy or cheap fix.
Eric Pickles, “Companies do not need red tape regulations, they know the right thing to do.” Not verbatim, but near enough.
Politics is a sewer. Those who live in it love it, what does that make them? And what does that make us for accepting and even lauding them?
C’mon, I sympathise with you, we have had so many obviously self seeking people “governing” us. Listen to the pragmatic nature of the type of people with ministerial responsibility now. They have the kind of “lived experience” that politicians need to make effective decisions. But please, no sloppy and lazy statements
Begone with your partisan, disingenuous attempts at gaslighting condescension. Your "sympathy" is less than worthless.
When are the MPs going to be held accountable?
Ms Elcock’s requests sound eminently reasonable to me. I hope and pray that the current government listens and responds appropriately, allowing the chips to fall where they may, without dodging any of this.
At this stage of a new government, this will write future of the Labour Party in stone. Certainly for this Parliament.
It is called top-down management systems
Teresa May the day after the fire deliberately initiated a public inquiry. Which made those responsible, very difficult to be criminally prosecuted. Pure evil. This is what happens when you have a free market economy.
I always said they need more people who have worked on building sites before working in planning and building control from tel.
Took me about six hours to work out exactly what the cause was. Interesting that the product websites went offline by mid day. London has 102 fire stations. They would have to survey 20 tower blocks a day every day for a year just to become familiar with each building and its risks. Then the Tories cut Fire and Rescue across the country. Johnson cut ten stations. Typical.
One can argue about the political failings at national government level, but the real blame lies a) with those who fitted that cladding knowing that it was probably unsafe for that purpose, and b) those in Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council who allowed this cladding to be fitted without first establishing that it was safe. OK, they were probably misled by those who fitted the cladding, but it is a council’s responsibility to ensure its buildings are fit for purpose and are safe. But it is national government’s responsibility to ensure that building materials, wherever they are used, are safe.
2017 was mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Well done guys - after a damning report giving the greatest blame to the tories you end it with a laugh at Kier Starmer who has to pick up the pieces
Recently you have been cloth eared in a way that wasn't previously the case
Shocking. The findings are not just relevant to tower blocks. The failed regulatory regime and perverse motivations for the manufacturers that led to unsafe materials being used in tower blocks - apply to all UK building construction. The companies criticised in the report supply many building products to be used in all sorts of buildings - houses, schools, hospitals, . Can we have any confidence that they are safe?
Calling Richi PM, is going to be the free square on pmqs bingo.
So many factors in this that are often overlooked, who is paying for this negligence? It's the tenants and leaseholders, that's who. Is it the rogue developers, builders, nominated building control officers, insurers, managing agents, the answer to this is a big fat NO, it's us who have no voice. What's happening now is that leaseholders are paying an extortionate amount in insurance and building safety act works, who is monitoring these charlatans doing the building safety works? Between 10-20 billion per year is wasted service charges, that's an underestimate as well, who is hoovering up that money............
I have worked in the social and private housing sectors and other areas employment. Legislation on safety has been hard won and is based on the idea that each person is equal. So, "do to others as you would have them do to you", and keep mutual respect on that basis. The trouble is, a human tendency to self interest and a sense of superiority over that basic concept and over other real lives and environments means that "others" become expendable, and objects, im the eyes and practices of certain people who have positions of responsibility or power. Against such inequitable behaviour we pressurise and fight for safety and health standards and accountability.
You know the riots earlier this summer?
I do not condone violence.. not now and not ever.. that said I would have understood if people rioted at the companies and governments that allowed Grenfell and other cladding fires to happen.
I've come across the product claims of one of the insulation manufacturers involved. Though unrelated to fire safety I know that claims about physical and chemical properties were untrue and flatly contradicted by evidence, yet they repeated them in literature and in a trade association technical bulletin. Not at all surprised by the dishonesty in pursuit of profit.
Corporate manslaughter?
If UK had complied with EU cladding regulations, Grenfell could not have happened. We are sick of lifesaving regulations being treated as a joke and just "red tape" when they are a matter of life and death. It IS the attitude of Tory Eurosceptics that the rules dont apply to them.
To note, there are aluminium panel claddings on the market that on the surface look identical but differ in their cores- and it is the cores that are either flammable or inflammable.
If I want something to lighten the mood I can do something else. Not appropriate to switch at the end to a jolly little 'And Finally'.
Great program but hate the music
Can someone who has read the report please name all the companies involved?
I know Rayner has said that they wouldn't be able to get anymore contracts with councils, which is quite sobering to think those companies have been able to operate for the last 7 years, but i'm relieved that she's taken that measure.
Yet those companies will probably be able to operate in the other markets, whether directly to non-council consumers in Britain or abroad...
Kingspan, Celotex (I believe under Saint Gobain a huge international company) and Arconic (a French subsidiary of a large US company)
@@wyvernwood5675 Merci!
Everyone ought to know better, it's multilevel human ignorance and deception, professionals claiming rewards and status yet denying the fundamental truth of their culpability, and sadly that includes reporters who don't inquire of their self.
Could you please say something about the economist, Richard J Murphy‘s TH-cam videos about the Labour Party‘s “black hole”! It seems like he’s on a mission and I am wondering if this is having any effect. His videos are certainly hard-hitting and very educational!
The root of this was started the day Thatcher came to power.
Nothing about the illegal subletting going on? 🤔🧐
Lewis talks like a person who has only just realised what it means to be poor and disenfranchised
The word is GREAD!
Gread is not the word!
The word is actually ‘greed’ but your point is bang on Jennifer
What is wrong with having a sombre episode?!
It's almost like viewers are being treated like children. Don't scare the little ones....give them an ice cream.... even though their parents just died in a car crash!
Eric pickles more concerned about mudlim mayors.
Your decision to end on an up undermines any reputation you might have acquired for serious journalism
I thought it was a strange decision too. I'm surprised they didn't have Lewis juggling cats and Emily dressed as a clown.
Ignoring that the main reason the residents were ignored was because of race and class. If they were the ricjh whote residents accross the road, this would never have happened.
Please remember that Emily is George Osbornes friend always take hey sympathy with salt 😢
Emily Maitlis and Jon Sopel were both guests at Osborn's wedding.
@urbanimage Thanks for letting us know Emily is all heart George Osborne has some very serious alligations against him and a young lady while Chancellor