All of the faults of the characters parallel with their Wizard of Oz counterparts, including Ozpin. It'll be strange though in Vacuo, because as far as I know the headmaster is based off a different story.
@@etherealworrier good point what is the headmaster of Vacuo based on the story or legend could their still be chance to save the next kingdom to stand or fall to enemy's hand
In all fairness, they never really knew how Summer died. So for the big bad villain they've been fighting against to suddenly come out and basically say, "Hey, you know how you're trying to stop me? Yeah your mom tried too and I killed her." would be pretty devastating, especially for a teenager.
... And it doesn't take much, still, to break her silver-eyes state of mind, which then knocks her confidence more, and she's exhausted from the evacuation, never mind everything that's happened since the Argus express. Interesting point though, Salem *didn't* actually say she killed Summer. Just that she was wrong about going to beat Salem. She probably did (or Tyrion) but I wouldn't rule out a surprise, yet.
Everything about the fight between Watts and Ironwood was incredibly satisfying to me. The gravity stage, the number of bullets being consistent and running out at the end. The choreography. Watts, who is my favorite villain in this show by far putting up an incredibly satisfying fight, and Ironwood being badass. Really nice, great choreography. I hope Watts didn't die!
Yeah hopefully he didn't. They cut before Ironwood even dropped him and even then he still had rings on his other hand with wich he maybe could control the bioms
@@MonkeyDCaleb I personally prefer Jonathan Young's voice to Caleb's but Caleb is how I found Jonathan. They both sound so good. Been waiting for Caleb and Jonathan to be in a Disney movie with their voices and the covers they do. But I am so happy Caleb's voice is featured in RWBY though.
For everyone saying that Ironwood is doing the only sensible thing, remember that Salem herself said that if Ironwood called on help from Vacuou and Mistral, that the lamp and staff could be lost to her forever. Salem is counting on Ironwood to do the "sensible" thing and run away, further dividing Atlas from the rest of the world. Ruby is right, holding out and quickly finishing the Global Communications Tower is the only way to beat Salem. It's a massive gamble. Nobody even knows for certain if foreign reinforcements will come. Atlas and Mantle will undoubtedly suffer massive casualties and untold damage from Salem's onslaught. But running away is only a short-term solution that will cause long-term problems. Sometimes, the winning move is not the sensible one.
It's really scary though. If the Ace Ops(I doubt it tho) overwhelm team RWBY then Robyn, Qrow, and Clover may not be able to put Tyrian in prison. Winter and Penny might try and get to Freja faster, and Cinder will completely annihilate them. Then Jaune, Ren, and Nora are stuck between getting to Winter & Penny, or trying to find RWBY, who have been defeated resulting in their arrest too
@ルカ Okay, I have to admit that I misremembered the quote. It wasn't Salem who said this, but actually Tyrian in volume 6, chapter 9. I don't think this changes anything. Ironwood's only winning move is to finish the Global Communications Tower before Salem's forces arrive. They aren't there yet. There's still a little time left.
Tyrion said last volume if Ironwood calls to Vacuo for help all would be lost. Deciding to neglect the rest of the world is what they wanted him to do and he is none the wiser out of fear.
Which.... Means its possible Salem *is* going to Vacuo? By getting Ironwood to freak out and divide Atlas from Mantle, Remnant's biggest army and research program is out of action indefinitely. CCT won't be restored. The perimeter alarms being out may just be a feint to apply pressure. At the same time, a sudden all-out assault on Vacuo to grab the relic, or at least secure the vault? If she has the resources, it makes more sense than just trying to tackle the kingdoms one at a time. With all the kingdoms broken, she could spend her time starving out Atlas and finding the last Maidens.
@@morlock2012 yeah Ironwood decision was a temporary one. But I do believe Salem very much intended to swing to Atlas because she was set on Vacuo till she heard Ozpin was there. I think it was more of a power play for Oz to witness
That's what I thought. That Salem was going to take down Vacuo to cut off any support for Atlas. Then attack Atlas as Watts and Tyrian will have softened them up with chaos for her arrival. What better plan to take down the strongest and most advanced kingdom in the world.
I also believe that Ruby breaking down was due to what was happening in her head. I think Salem was able to affect her mentally (like the screeching actually happening in her mind) and the effect is messing with her. Even when Qrow brought up Summer earlier in the season, she didn’t get that emotional. I think more was happening with Salem then could be seen.
Ruby: Talk no Jutsu! Salem: Yo Momma joke. R: ;_; Really Salem knows how to be a proper Big Bad. She really doesn't have to do anything than talk at the heroes to freak them out. She didn't raise her voice or anything to get James to do exactly what she wanted.
@Damien Dingus saying she talked is better than saying talk no jutsu in this context because again talk no jutsu is when you have an opportunity to perform a jutsu on the opponent instead of talking
It's basically the Joker and Batman from The Dark Knight. Salem KNOWS she's in complete control and that her pawns have already made their moves, now all that's left for her is to watch them destroy each other as the trust once built was soon crumbled. But even then, that trust had already gone out the window once Yang admitted to telling Robyn about the GCT and showing no faith not loyalty in Ironwood, especially after the events and crimes they have committed just to get to that point. And Team RWBY doesn't even have another plan, or at least a solid one, instead of just standing their ground whereas Ironwood's Martial Law idea, reckless and full of sacrifice, is the only plan and failsafe they have. Personally, I'm with Ironwood on this because he's the only one who actually knows what he's doing and is doing what he thinks is best, no matter how wrong it may seem in terms of morality, but how good it is in terms of logic.
Ironwood isn't falling apart or making bad decisions, he's adapting to changing circumstances and doing the best he can to save the most people that he can from a more powerful opponent, despite team RWBY sabotaging him with secrets and lies. Team RWBY naively thinks it's better to fail trying to save ALL the people than to succeed trying to save MOST of the people. To use a analogy it's like the sinking of the Titanic when there weren't nearly enough lifeboats for everyone and people were going to die no matter what. Ironwood is the kind of person who would put women and children on the lifeboats first and any extra seats could then go to some men while the rest died on the ship. Team RWBY are the kind of people who would refuse to let anyone be left behind to die and would cram everybody on the lifeboats, only for them to sink and everyone to die.
I believe in team RWBY to save everyone. Which they could do, they were already working well to save everyone. Ironwood is losing his tactical mind to fear. He is making fearful choices. On the other hand it would have been more realistic from the beginning if team RWBY told ironwood from the start. Could have done more for the people these past couple of days.
@@MonkeyDCaleb I think some of those fearful choices being made by James are because team RWBY Lied and kept tactically important information from him. From chapter 1 James has been operating without a full view of the big picture. I really can't blame him to much, and now his is going to look like a crazed military dictator.
Exactly. If team RWBY had told him all the necessary info, he probably could have come up with a better plan or prepared more but as it stands he doesn’t have much of a choice. And I think him losing it is definitely how most people would react if they were in his shoes. Ironwood has been the best character this season in my opinion, very realistic. I see no reason to be disappointed in him, he’s human and having to deal with a bunch of shit. All he can do is use his best judgement like he’s said in the past.
With the whole asking Jinn about Summer being a wasted question. It could be an intentional wasted question. Maybe Neo could be getting away with lamp, and Ruby calls for Jinn and asks about how her mom died to stop Salem/Neo from being able to use the lamp themselves. Then in the flashback we get Summer confronting Salem, we learn she knew a way to beat Salem, but just failed and died trying to do it.
That would be a great excuse for a Summer flashback episode. Even better, a team STRQ flashback. As for using the last question to stop Salem/Neo from using the Lamp, it wouldn't make a difference. I don't believe Salem is interested in the questions Jinn can answer. She just wants all the relics together which would summon back the brothers and likely mean the end of the world. I believe that function remains regardless of how many questions are left for the Lamp.
DMM Tech Salem could use the lamp in the future to find what team RWBY are currently planning to stop her, so she could counter it easily. It would be very bad for Salem to have that last question as a Ace in the hole to gain an advantage.
@@ArchMageSynok why would she need to counter it she is immortal meaning she cant be killed and she has experience with silver eyed warriors considering that she killed Summer Rose that silver eyes dont work either so Team RWBY has nothing that can beat or even stop Salem
Both sides have a good point but even if they do get Atlas up and out of reach, both Neo and Cinder would go up with them and assuming they bring Tyrion into Atlas under arrest. Ironwood is pretty fragile and all it took was a chess piece from Cinder to snap and make all these drastic decisions.
I think the chess piece was the cherry on top to push him over the edge. He was probably already dealing with the realization that Team RWBY, with whom he had placed so much trust in, lied to him, kept important information from him. That and the pressures of dealing with Saboteurs, Grimm attacks, Mantle problems, and the latest issue, that being all the perimeter defense alarms have been disabled. Just too much. Even for a seasoned military commander. I really feel for the guy. It's a shame that he is now going to be painted as completely unhinged and the new sub-bad. Things are not going to end well for him.
They made us think the heroes were prepared this time... and as far as they knew, they were... of course they weren't. Is this a bigger Oh Crap than Heroes and Monsters? Probably not, but it's the closest we've got in a while.
For Jordie: It's Kamil's fault for not telling you about the references XD, cuz actually many if not all the new characters are based on references, Calivera is based on some fairy tale about a shoe (idk it), the girl who sliced maria's eyes is based on Peter Pan (the Crocodile + clock theme), Robin hood, Aceop fables, even lamb girl xD... but yeah I will agree all Atlas-related characters have really boring designs
I told her about most of those! Some of it was off camera, some came from you guys in the comments... not my fault jordie's memory is, well.. y'all have seen it lol
My theory about Summer backstory: Raven got the Spring Maiden powers. Together with Summer, they went to Haven, accessed the lamp, and asked a question similar to Ruby's. Jinn revealed Salem's immortality, along with a significant amount of what Ozpin was hiding. Summer and Raven reacted differently to the reveal and had a falling out. It explains so much about how RAVEN. That could also be why Raven ran out on Yang and Tai (she's got a huge target on her back with the maiden powers), how Raven knew Salem couldn't be killed, how she knew so much about Ozpin's secrets, and the explanation of Raven's putdown of Ruby ("You sound just like your mother"). EDIT-ADDITION: Oh, and I think maybe little Ruby was THERE at that cliffside moment, and those Summer clips we got this episode were repressed childhood memories.
Some good ideas here. I could definitely see some of this being the case! I love the idea of the cliffside moment being a repressed memory! That would be amazing
I know it sounds bad but I kinda agree with ironwood’s plan. Salem is on her way, who’s to say if they have the time to save everyone?? I know that’s really wrong but in trying to save everyone, they could run out of time, Salem could show up and they could end up losing everyone when they could’ve at least saved a lot of them. I say being certain that you can save a fraction of people is better than being uncertain if you can save everyone. And honestly, if they do end up being able to save everyone I don’t think I would be satisfied with that. I feel like it would be cheap?? Cheesy?? Idk, I feel like having to go with ironwoods plan would create more interesting things in the future of the show. That’s just my opinion.
40:10 “One thing’s for sure: she HAS to be dead...” Ohhhhh... I’ve grown less and less sure as time goes on. The show has left it VERY ambiguous. And they have not- to the best of my memory- ever said “yep, summer died.” It’s always some version of “summer went on a mission and didn’t come back.” I’m not saying she’s alive. I’m just saying I’ll be less surprised if she’s alive than I was when cinder was alive after the v5 finale.
Why ruby was so emotional, can be heard in red like roses part 2. which was when ruby needed summer the most, so now hearing that salem was the one to take her away kinda brought the emotions back
Maybe it's just me, but i think Ironwood is totally in the right here. If you know BOTH cities are going to be annihilated once Salem arrives, why not try to at least save one city and the relics? Can these so called ''heroes'' that are our protagonists imagine what Salem could do with 2 relics on her hands? Looking at the big picture, what is one city compared to the fate of the world? It's not about letting a whole city to die, but saving the other before its too late for both. I'm not saying his decision is good. Ofcourse its not, but it the only choice at the moment and it feels realistic. And karma bite their asses really hard. Their lies and hypocrisy during the whole season gave the extra push to put Ironwood into a corner. His song says alot : "I would die Without regret I'd offer up my life With zero reservations I would fly Into the sun if that would keep our dream alive"
His choice makes sense and I like that he went with it but I still think it's an irrational decision made out of fear. 1. We have to assume that Salem really has no way of getting up there despite the fact that she was always planning to attack Atlas. 2. Everyone in the world already doesnt like Atlas. If word gets around that he abandoned Mantle then no one will trust him even if he tells them about salem. Salem could easily spin that around and get more followers. 3. He will eventually run out of resources. He should trust team rwby to hold back Salem long enough to finish the tower and launch it so they can get help but he can't casue of the fear which is understandable. I dont think team rwby has done everything right but Ironwood certainly isnt right here.
But he would be bringing cinder and neo up with them and he should have a clue that they are in the building considering cinder placed the glass piece there. It just comes up to morals. if you were left to die trusting someone to protect you I think you would be salty too.
Ironwood is probably right in his logic, but its too late for his plan. He should know by now that Salem is already ahead of him. There's no way he gets Atlas to safety before she shows up, because she's been expecting this move long before Ironwood came up with it. By trying to do the logical thing and save 1 city and sacrifice another, he's going to end up destroying both. He's going to raise Atlas up higher so it'll do more damage when it falls.
@@fritzthedemon4575 I think its pretty rational tbf. You barely handled the first wave and has 0 resources left, and now the main force is coming full strenght at you. What do you do? In a war you have to make tough choices and not hope for a miracle. Take commande Erwin Smith from AoT for example. He knew what had to be done and simply told his recruits to march towards death with him. He didn't gave them hope or waited for a miracle that would never come, he took action, and that gave the victory for Humanity. I don't think trusting team RWBY will do any good, specially since it won't be easy to trust someone who lied to you the whole volume. Also, how long will it take to finish the tower? It's not like they can hold Salem for days until its finished. And how can they just keep casually working on the tower while all the enemies are around? Ruby also cannot be the key here, since not even her mom managed to stop Salem with silver eyes. The whole world not liking Atlas is a known thing, but saying he's abandone half of his people is partially wrong. He saved the other half, that's how i'd put it. Well, its prob too late even for Atlas at this point. And as his song says: "I will fight for you, no matter how i am despised" ps.: Note that i never said Ironwood was 100% right. I know its a shitty decision to make. I just think they ran out of options to chose.
Revisit Red Like Roses Part 2. Even back then, I think that gave insight into Ruby's deep internal feelings about her mother even though she always put on a bright & cheery facade, hiding this pain from everyone around her.
Unfortunately, I can also see ironwood dying this volume. It sucks because he’s been so well written but you’re right, I don’t see him being useful after this volume or at least not after the next one since the next one is supposedly still gonna involve atlas. I’m gonna be emotional when he dies tho cuz this volume has made me kinda attached to him lol.
Even if they got Atlas into space eventually in time Salem would take over Remnant again and create a Grimm powerful enough to travel to space and reach Atlas unless Atlas in that time adapts enough to fight back her non stop attacks. But all in all if that were to happen I don't think the people of Atlas will be able to take back Remnant in years to come.
I would like to see Winter and Penny catch Cinder murdering Freya to steal the maiden powers. But the power goes to Winter as Freya looks at her as the last act of Freya's life. Then another maiden v maiden fight which Cinder wins but she is still deny the power as Winder thinks of her sister Weiss as the last thought.
Yeah, but Cinder still has her Grimm arm, you remember how she tried to pull the maiden power out of Vernal. And she's not exactly reluctant to first just kill everyone else in the room....
Nah bro you just asking for Weiss to get killed Winter should just kill Cinder in the fight and your also forgetting that she could use her Grimm arm to steal the power from Winter and Weiss and Freya
@@justindeliwe8065 It is shaping up that way. Now you throw Penny into the mix. Three well trained Assassins where able to take down a maiden back in 3x7. Perhaps Weiss, Winter and Penny can do the same with Cinder.
@@DocMicrowave the thing is that most of the fighting was because Cinder caught the Fall Maiden by surprise when she used her semblance on her and then absorbed half of her power
I am really happy confirmed Summer Rose dead because We have been seeing Ruby at Summer's grave in the Red trailer and in Volume 3 Chapter 1 and people refused to believed that Summer was dead
Agreed, but I'm ok with simple/shallow villains if they aren't the main Big Bad. Tyrion, Watts, and Hazel all have very simple, pure motives. I like that for the lackeys of the main villain. If Salem was that way, I wouldn't like it as much.
I don't get why people react like his declaring martial law is some terrible and evil thing. The legal power to declare martial law exist for a reason and this is a perfect example of a situation where it is justified.
Spoiler: Kamil: "Clover's gona side with Qrow and Robin and maybe even convince the Ace-Ops to let team RWBY go" Me: "Welp.....I had once hoped as well"
Fantastic fight between Watts and Ironwood. Gave me a lot of Matrix feels. Particularly the fight between Neo and Smith in the subway. Shooting at each other, Jumping off walls. When they both hit the floor with guns at each other, I almost thought they would say: Watts: Your Empty! Ironwood: So are you!. The episode is great over all. Best in the entire volume in my opinion. Ironwood's reaction, perfectly understandable, if not extreme. So satisfying to see finally team RWBY finally called out on their 'misinformation'. I was really afraid they were going to get a free pass on that. Even though the scene is being framed that Ironwood is to be come the new side baddy. Might as well just enjoy the scene for now. I don't think Watts expected to die on his mission to screw up Atlas. His personality made me feel like he fully expected to live through it. Salem's comments made it seem like she was just using him (and his hatred for James) to further her goals. Whether he survived or not was not a concern of hers. He was just another pawn in her plans. It's funny, we were wondering who on the AceOps would turn on Team RWBY. Looks like it's all of them. Feels like we are being setup for another V3 ending. Cinder following Winter to the maiden just as she did with Pyrrah. Great reaction as always. Great to see Jordie back!
@@CaptKG but Tyrion in that fight is catching pallets from Robyn's weapon and has to fight Qrow and Clover at the same time but the thing is his semblance allows him to cut through aura.
Exactly. Lots of people are blaming Ruby for what Happened to General Ironwood but she only lied because they saw what he was going through and how much stress he was having with everything already going on she wanted to wait for the right time to come where everything was a bit more peaceful and easy. But that time never came and she had no choice but to let General Ironwood know before it was too late. She probably knew he would end up the way he is but she must've hoped for General Ironwood to not be swayed by his own fear.
@ルカ that I can agree with she really could've told Ironwood from the start but of course she had to pull the Ozpin card. I just hope Ironwood will change his mind about what his doing I'm just really hoping he doesn't leave mantle to die they've suffered too much already
Guys but wishing for a villain to die is also dooming us by inviting even worse villains you all seen that cliche like a billions times in superhero franchises even in anime and cartoons
OMG imagine if we get Ozpin vs Salem fight, or Ozpin vs Cinder rematch x) and Oscar finds his semblence.. and salem and cinder dies, Neo becomes a good girl and everyone lives happily ever after, also Torchwick and pyrrha come back to life :(
The Lion was Cowardly and now the Tim Man has no Heart...
Good analogy!
All of the faults of the characters parallel with their Wizard of Oz counterparts, including Ozpin. It'll be strange though in Vacuo, because as far as I know the headmaster is based off a different story.
Like Jinn said: “the hearts of men are easily swayed.”
Tin Man not Tim Man
@@etherealworrier good point what is the headmaster of Vacuo based on the story or legend could their still be chance to save the next kingdom to stand or fall to enemy's hand
In all fairness, they never really knew how Summer died. So for the big bad villain they've been fighting against to suddenly come out and basically say, "Hey, you know how you're trying to stop me? Yeah your mom tried too and I killed her." would be pretty devastating, especially for a teenager.
... And it doesn't take much, still, to break her silver-eyes state of mind, which then knocks her confidence more, and she's exhausted from the evacuation, never mind everything that's happened since the Argus express.
Interesting point though, Salem *didn't* actually say she killed Summer. Just that she was wrong about going to beat Salem.
She probably did (or Tyrion) but I wouldn't rule out a surprise, yet.
Everything about the fight between Watts and Ironwood was incredibly satisfying to me. The gravity stage, the number of bullets being consistent and running out at the end. The choreography. Watts, who is my favorite villain in this show by far putting up an incredibly satisfying fight, and Ironwood being badass. Really nice, great choreography. I hope Watts didn't die!
Totally agree! Best fight in the entire volume imo.
Yeah hopefully he didn't. They cut before Ironwood even dropped him and even then he still had rings on his other hand with wich he maybe could control the bioms
Caleb Hyles was singing during the ironwood vs watts fight!
I'm so proud of my boy ;-;
Man, after that cover he did of This Life is Mine, he deserved this. Dude is hella talented.
BRO. Kamil told me that he sang the song and I freaked out in public. Listen to Caleb Hyles on a daily and that was so amazing to find out.
@@MonkeyDCaleb I personally prefer Jonathan Young's voice to Caleb's but Caleb is how I found Jonathan. They both sound so good. Been waiting for Caleb and Jonathan to be in a Disney movie with their voices and the covers they do. But I am so happy Caleb's voice is featured in RWBY though.
For everyone saying that Ironwood is doing the only sensible thing, remember that Salem herself said that if Ironwood called on help from Vacuou and Mistral, that the lamp and staff could be lost to her forever. Salem is counting on Ironwood to do the "sensible" thing and run away, further dividing Atlas from the rest of the world. Ruby is right, holding out and quickly finishing the Global Communications Tower is the only way to beat Salem.
It's a massive gamble. Nobody even knows for certain if foreign reinforcements will come. Atlas and Mantle will undoubtedly suffer massive casualties and untold damage from Salem's onslaught. But running away is only a short-term solution that will cause long-term problems.
Sometimes, the winning move is not the sensible one.
It's really scary though. If the Ace Ops(I doubt it tho) overwhelm team RWBY then Robyn, Qrow, and Clover may not be able to put Tyrian in prison. Winter and Penny might try and get to Freja faster, and Cinder will completely annihilate them. Then Jaune, Ren, and Nora are stuck between getting to Winter & Penny, or trying to find RWBY, who have been defeated resulting in their arrest too
The trouble with that idea, is that the Tower is not finished and is not ready for launch. They cannot contact them.
The tower is not even finished If they do this It will be Just plain suicide
@ルカ Don't think Salem ever said that. Closest I can think of is what Tyrian said when he was talking to Emerald and Mercury near the end of Vol.6
@ルカ Okay, I have to admit that I misremembered the quote. It wasn't Salem who said this, but actually Tyrian in volume 6, chapter 9. I don't think this changes anything. Ironwood's only winning move is to finish the Global Communications Tower before Salem's forces arrive. They aren't there yet. There's still a little time left.
Tyrion said last volume if Ironwood calls to Vacuo for help all would be lost. Deciding to neglect the rest of the world is what they wanted him to do and he is none the wiser out of fear.
Which.... Means its possible Salem *is* going to Vacuo? By getting Ironwood to freak out and divide Atlas from Mantle, Remnant's biggest army and research program is out of action indefinitely. CCT won't be restored. The perimeter alarms being out may just be a feint to apply pressure.
At the same time, a sudden all-out assault on Vacuo to grab the relic, or at least secure the vault? If she has the resources, it makes more sense than just trying to tackle the kingdoms one at a time.
With all the kingdoms broken, she could spend her time starving out Atlas and finding the last Maidens.
@@morlock2012 yeah Ironwood decision was a temporary one. But I do believe Salem very much intended to swing to Atlas because she was set on Vacuo till she heard Ozpin was there. I think it was more of a power play for Oz to witness
That's what I thought. That Salem was going to take down Vacuo to cut off any support for Atlas. Then attack Atlas as Watts and Tyrian will have softened them up with chaos for her arrival. What better plan to take down the strongest and most advanced kingdom in the world.
So glad Jordie could catch this one reacting on video.. 👍🏻
Oh hey, look what channel showed up. Didn't know you guys watch Kamil and Jordie too.
@@KonathaoSoberuNartio yep... liked them for along time.. binged all other their rwby stuff quite a while ago too
I also believe that Ruby breaking down was due to what was happening in her head. I think Salem was able to affect her mentally (like the screeching actually happening in her mind) and the effect is messing with her. Even when Qrow brought up Summer earlier in the season, she didn’t get that emotional. I think more was happening with Salem then could be seen.
Ruby: Talk no Jutsu!
Salem: Yo Momma joke.
R: ;_;
Really Salem knows how to be a proper Big Bad. She really doesn't have to do anything than talk at the heroes to freak them out. She didn't raise her voice or anything to get James to do exactly what she wanted.
And you can just feel that so much from this episode.
Dude really "Talk no Jutsu" doesnt fit in this context because how can you fight an image of Salem when she isnt even there
@Damien Dingus again it doesnt fit because talk no jutsu means you talk when you could just use a jutsu
@Damien Dingus saying she talked is better than saying talk no jutsu in this context because again talk no jutsu is when you have an opportunity to perform a jutsu on the opponent instead of talking
It's basically the Joker and Batman from The Dark Knight. Salem KNOWS she's in complete control and that her pawns have already made their moves, now all that's left for her is to watch them destroy each other as the trust once built was soon crumbled. But even then, that trust had already gone out the window once Yang admitted to telling Robyn about the GCT and showing no faith not loyalty in Ironwood, especially after the events and crimes they have committed just to get to that point. And Team RWBY doesn't even have another plan, or at least a solid one, instead of just standing their ground whereas Ironwood's Martial Law idea, reckless and full of sacrifice, is the only plan and failsafe they have. Personally, I'm with Ironwood on this because he's the only one who actually knows what he's doing and is doing what he thinks is best, no matter how wrong it may seem in terms of morality, but how good it is in terms of logic.
My queen Salem kicking ass and taking names
All with out lifting a finger!
Ironwood isn't falling apart or making bad decisions, he's adapting to changing circumstances and doing the best he can to save the most people that he can from a more powerful opponent, despite team RWBY sabotaging him with secrets and lies. Team RWBY naively thinks it's better to fail trying to save ALL the people than to succeed trying to save MOST of the people. To use a analogy it's like the sinking of the Titanic when there weren't nearly enough lifeboats for everyone and people were going to die no matter what. Ironwood is the kind of person who would put women and children on the lifeboats first and any extra seats could then go to some men while the rest died on the ship. Team RWBY are the kind of people who would refuse to let anyone be left behind to die and would cram everybody on the lifeboats, only for them to sink and everyone to die.
I believe in team RWBY to save everyone. Which they could do, they were already working well to save everyone. Ironwood is losing his tactical mind to fear. He is making fearful choices.
On the other hand it would have been more realistic from the beginning if team RWBY told ironwood from the start. Could have done more for the people these past couple of days.
@@MonkeyDCaleb I think some of those fearful choices being made by James are because team RWBY Lied and kept tactically important information from him. From chapter 1 James has been operating without a full view of the big picture. I really can't blame him to much, and now his is going to look like a crazed military dictator.
Exactly. If team RWBY had told him all the necessary info, he probably could have come up with a better plan or prepared more but as it stands he doesn’t have much of a choice. And I think him losing it is definitely how most people would react if they were in his shoes. Ironwood has been the best character this season in my opinion, very realistic. I see no reason to be disappointed in him, he’s human and having to deal with a bunch of shit. All he can do is use his best judgement like he’s said in the past.
With the whole asking Jinn about Summer being a wasted question. It could be an intentional wasted question. Maybe Neo could be getting away with lamp, and Ruby calls for Jinn and asks about how her mom died to stop Salem/Neo from being able to use the lamp themselves. Then in the flashback we get Summer confronting Salem, we learn she knew a way to beat Salem, but just failed and died trying to do it.
That would be a great excuse for a Summer flashback episode.
Even better, a team STRQ flashback.
As for using the last question to stop Salem/Neo from using the Lamp, it wouldn't make a difference. I don't believe Salem is interested in the questions Jinn can answer. She just wants all the relics together which would summon back the brothers and likely mean the end of the world. I believe that function remains regardless of how many questions are left for the Lamp.
DMM Tech Salem could use the lamp in the future to find what team RWBY are currently planning to stop her, so she could counter it easily. It would be very bad for Salem to have that last question as a Ace in the hole to gain an advantage.
@@ArchMageSynok why would she need to counter it she is immortal meaning she cant be killed and she has experience with silver eyed warriors considering that she killed Summer Rose that silver eyes dont work either so Team RWBY has nothing that can beat or even stop Salem
Both sides have a good point but even if they do get Atlas up and out of reach, both Neo and Cinder would go up with them and assuming they bring Tyrion into Atlas under arrest. Ironwood is pretty fragile and all it took was a chess piece from Cinder to snap and make all these drastic decisions.
Siege?
I think the chess piece was the cherry on top to push him over the edge. He was probably already dealing with the realization that Team RWBY, with whom he had placed so much trust in, lied to him, kept important information from him.
That and the pressures of dealing with Saboteurs, Grimm attacks, Mantle problems, and the latest issue, that being all the perimeter defense alarms have been disabled. Just too much. Even for a seasoned military commander.
I really feel for the guy. It's a shame that he is now going to be painted as completely unhinged and the new sub-bad.
Things are not going to end well for him.
They made us think the heroes were prepared this time... and as far as they knew, they were... of course they weren't.
Is this a bigger Oh Crap than Heroes and Monsters? Probably not, but it's the closest we've got in a while.
For Jordie: It's Kamil's fault for not telling you about the references XD, cuz actually many if not all the new characters are based on references, Calivera is based on some fairy tale about a shoe (idk it), the girl who sliced maria's eyes is based on Peter Pan (the Crocodile + clock theme), Robin hood, Aceop fables, even lamb girl xD... but yeah I will agree all Atlas-related characters have really boring designs
I told her about most of those! Some of it was off camera, some came from you guys in the comments... not my fault jordie's memory is, well.. y'all have seen it lol
Jordie! Hooray! I'm sure you've seen chapter 12 by now, and omg, I can NOT wait to see your reactions.
My theory about Summer backstory: Raven got the Spring Maiden powers. Together with Summer, they went to Haven, accessed the lamp, and asked a question similar to Ruby's. Jinn revealed Salem's immortality, along with a significant amount of what Ozpin was hiding. Summer and Raven reacted differently to the reveal and had a falling out.
It explains so much about how RAVEN. That could also be why Raven ran out on Yang and Tai (she's got a huge target on her back with the maiden powers), how Raven knew Salem couldn't be killed, how she knew so much about Ozpin's secrets, and the explanation of Raven's putdown of Ruby ("You sound just like your mother").
EDIT-ADDITION: Oh, and I think maybe little Ruby was THERE at that cliffside moment, and those Summer clips we got this episode were repressed childhood memories.
Some good ideas here. I could definitely see some of this being the case! I love the idea of the cliffside moment being a repressed memory! That would be amazing
I know it sounds bad but I kinda agree with ironwood’s plan. Salem is on her way, who’s to say if they have the time to save everyone?? I know that’s really wrong but in trying to save everyone, they could run out of time, Salem could show up and they could end up losing everyone when they could’ve at least saved a lot of them. I say being certain that you can save a fraction of people is better than being uncertain if you can save everyone. And honestly, if they do end up being able to save everyone I don’t think I would be satisfied with that. I feel like it would be cheap?? Cheesy?? Idk, I feel like having to go with ironwoods plan would create more interesting things in the future of the show. That’s just my opinion.
This episode made me like
"Hell yeah Ironwood!"
"James no..."
"Okay you've got a point."
"Excuse me James, the fuck? We are not doing that!"
For real! This one was a roller coaster
I think we are now going to get a truly angry Ruby! And I hope it will be glorious! Some proper development for Ruby!
40:10
“One thing’s for sure: she HAS to be dead...”
Ohhhhh... I’ve grown less and less sure as time goes on. The show has left it VERY ambiguous. And they have not- to the best of my memory- ever said “yep, summer died.” It’s always some version of “summer went on a mission and didn’t come back.”
I’m not saying she’s alive.
I’m just saying I’ll be less surprised if she’s alive than I was when cinder was alive after the v5 finale.
I actually think that the first question use it Raven that how she decide not to be a sacriface of Osmar I mean it kind of fit her song with it right
Why ruby was so emotional, can be heard in red like roses part 2. which was when ruby needed summer the most, so now hearing that salem was the one to take her away kinda brought the emotions back
Calling it now the paladin incident is what caused ironwood to go metal
Maybe it's just me, but i think Ironwood is totally in the right here. If you know BOTH cities are going to be annihilated once Salem arrives, why not try to at least save one city and the relics? Can these so called ''heroes'' that are our protagonists imagine what Salem could do with 2 relics on her hands? Looking at the big picture, what is one city compared to the fate of the world?
It's not about letting a whole city to die, but saving the other before its too late for both.
I'm not saying his decision is good. Ofcourse its not, but it the only choice at the moment and it feels realistic.
And karma bite their asses really hard. Their lies and hypocrisy during the whole season gave the extra push to put Ironwood into a corner.
His song says alot :
"I would die
Without regret I'd offer up my life
With zero reservations I would fly
Into the sun if that would keep our dream alive"
Agreed
His choice makes sense and I like that he went with it but I still think it's an irrational decision made out of fear.
1. We have to assume that Salem really has no way of getting up there despite the fact that she was always planning to attack Atlas.
2. Everyone in the world already doesnt like Atlas. If word gets around that he abandoned Mantle then no one will trust him even if he tells them about salem. Salem could easily spin that around and get more followers.
3. He will eventually run out of resources. He should trust team rwby to hold back Salem long enough to finish the tower and launch it so they can get help but he can't casue of the fear which is understandable.
I dont think team rwby has done everything right but Ironwood certainly isnt right here.
But he would be bringing cinder and neo up with them and he should have a clue that they are in the building considering cinder placed the glass piece there. It just comes up to morals. if you were left to die trusting someone to protect you I think you would be salty too.
Ironwood is probably right in his logic, but its too late for his plan. He should know by now that Salem is already ahead of him. There's no way he gets Atlas to safety before she shows up, because she's been expecting this move long before Ironwood came up with it. By trying to do the logical thing and save 1 city and sacrifice another, he's going to end up destroying both. He's going to raise Atlas up higher so it'll do more damage when it falls.
@@fritzthedemon4575 I think its pretty rational tbf. You barely handled the first wave and has 0 resources left, and now the main force is coming full strenght at you. What do you do? In a war you have to make tough choices and not hope for a miracle. Take commande Erwin Smith from AoT for example. He knew what had to be done and simply told his recruits to march towards death with him. He didn't gave them hope or waited for a miracle that would never come, he took action, and that gave the victory for Humanity.
I don't think trusting team RWBY will do any good, specially since it won't be easy to trust someone who lied to you the whole volume. Also, how long will it take to finish the tower? It's not like they can hold Salem for days until its finished. And how can they just keep casually working on the tower while all the enemies are around? Ruby also cannot be the key here, since not even her mom managed to stop Salem with silver eyes.
The whole world not liking Atlas is a known thing, but saying he's abandone half of his people is partially wrong. He saved the other half, that's how i'd put it. Well, its prob too late even for Atlas at this point.
And as his song says:
"I will fight
for you, no matter how i am despised"
ps.: Note that i never said Ironwood was 100% right. I know its a shitty decision to make. I just think they ran out of options to chose.
Revisit Red Like Roses Part 2. Even back then, I think that gave insight into Ruby's deep internal feelings about her mother even though she always put on a bright & cheery facade, hiding this pain from everyone around her.
I am wondering if we'll see the flying monkey grimm in action or if they show up at the last second as a cliffhanger.
They may be off attacking Vaccuo. But that would be interesting.
Unfortunately, I can also see ironwood dying this volume. It sucks because he’s been so well written but you’re right, I don’t see him being useful after this volume or at least not after the next one since the next one is supposedly still gonna involve atlas. I’m gonna be emotional when he dies tho cuz this volume has made me kinda attached to him lol.
Even if they got Atlas into space eventually in time Salem would take over Remnant again and create a Grimm powerful enough to travel to space and reach Atlas unless Atlas in that time adapts enough to fight back her non stop attacks. But all in all if that were to happen I don't think the people of Atlas will be able to take back Remnant in years to come.
JOOOOOORDIIIIIIIIIE
Oh my Jordie and Caleb 😂😂
What I do? 😂
@@MonkeyDCaleb You two arguing over Pyrrha had me cringing and laughing so hard.
@@MonkeyDCaleb Also that's a fantastic name, by the way.
@@jordiereason Wait... Wait wait wait. Is this Jordie????? Senpai noticed me?!?!?!
@@KonathaoSoberuNartio lol. She my nemiseas.
I would like to see Winter and Penny catch Cinder murdering Freya to steal the maiden powers. But the power goes to Winter as Freya looks at her as the last act of Freya's life. Then another maiden v maiden fight which Cinder wins but she is still deny the power as Winder thinks of her sister Weiss as the last thought.
Yeah, but Cinder still has her Grimm arm, you remember how she tried to pull the maiden power out of Vernal. And she's not exactly reluctant to first just kill everyone else in the room....
That is a theory I entertained as well! That Winter would get a taste of the maiden power but loose to Cinder, sending the power to Weiss.
Nah bro you just asking for Weiss to get killed Winter should just kill Cinder in the fight and your also forgetting that she could use her Grimm arm to steal the power from Winter and Weiss and Freya
@@justindeliwe8065 It is shaping up that way. Now you throw Penny into the mix.
Three well trained Assassins where able to take down a maiden back in 3x7. Perhaps Weiss, Winter and Penny can do the same with Cinder.
@@DocMicrowave the thing is that most of the fighting was because Cinder caught the Fall Maiden by surprise when she used her semblance on her and then absorbed half of her power
Jordie, I'm curious: what scene made you finally accept Bumbleby?
I think Penny will become the winter maiden
I am really happy confirmed Summer Rose dead because We have been seeing Ruby at Summer's grave in the Red trailer and in Volume 3 Chapter 1 and people refused to believed that Summer was dead
Yes, Tyrian's character is lovable in it's villainy, but very shallow.
Agreed, but I'm ok with simple/shallow villains if they aren't the main Big Bad. Tyrion, Watts, and Hazel all have very simple, pure motives. I like that for the lackeys of the main villain. If Salem was that way, I wouldn't like it as much.
@@WilliamBowles amen
When you compared ironwood to hitler I almost pissed myself laughing.
With Oscar I think its gonna be like Volume 6 where he just went somewhere random that we did not know about.
Clover heard Ironwood's order already through the transmission
I don't get why people react like his declaring martial law is some terrible and evil thing. The legal power to declare martial law exist for a reason and this is a perfect example of a situation where it is justified.
Lmao a woman reactor was getting so moist over Ironwood the whole fight 😭🤣
"He's so sexxxxyy" 👌
Spoiler:
Kamil: "Clover's gona side with Qrow and Robin and maybe even convince the Ace-Ops to let team RWBY go"
Me: "Welp.....I had once hoped as well"
Fantastic fight between Watts and Ironwood. Gave me a lot of Matrix feels. Particularly the fight between Neo and Smith in the subway. Shooting at each other, Jumping off walls. When they both hit the floor with guns at each other, I almost thought they would say:
Watts: Your Empty!
Ironwood: So are you!.
The episode is great over all. Best in the entire volume in my opinion.
Ironwood's reaction, perfectly understandable, if not extreme.
So satisfying to see finally team RWBY finally called out on their 'misinformation'.
I was really afraid they were going to get a free pass on that. Even though the scene is being framed that Ironwood is to be come the new side baddy. Might as well just enjoy the scene for now.
I don't think Watts expected to die on his mission to screw up Atlas. His personality made me feel like he fully expected to live through it.
Salem's comments made it seem like she was just using him (and his hatred for James) to further her goals. Whether he survived or not was not a concern of hers. He was just another pawn in her plans.
It's funny, we were wondering who on the AceOps would turn on Team RWBY. Looks like it's all of them.
Feels like we are being setup for another V3 ending. Cinder following Winter to the maiden just as she did with Pyrrah.
Great reaction as always. Great to see Jordie back!
*Tyrian fails to land a single hit and is playing purely defensively*
"He's kind of holding his own"
In a 3 on 1, I expected him to be ping ponged around, which he wasn't. So as far as I was concerned, that's holding your own lol
@@CaptKG but Tyrion in that fight is catching pallets from Robyn's weapon and has to fight Qrow and Clover at the same time but the thing is his semblance allows him to cut through aura.
@@CaptKG But...he WAS pingponged around.
@@HappyPotat he said that already
@@justindeliwe8065 He said he expected it but that it didn't happen.
But he pretty much was.
I personally believe if they had told our dear IronDaddy in the beginning about Salem Atlas would already be falling
Exactly. Lots of people are blaming Ruby for what Happened to General Ironwood but she only lied because they saw what he was going through and how much stress he was having with everything already going on she wanted to wait for the right time to come where everything was a bit more peaceful and easy. But that time never came and she had no choice but to let General Ironwood know before it was too late. She probably knew he would end up the way he is but she must've hoped for General Ironwood to not be swayed by his own fear.
@ルカ that I can agree with she really could've told Ironwood from the start but of course she had to pull the Ozpin card. I just hope Ironwood will change his mind about what his doing I'm just really hoping he doesn't leave mantle to die they've suffered too much already
Wouldn't it be cool if somehow Penny became the winter maiden!
I don't think Fria knows or has ever set eyes on Penny. I think the chances of that are slim. But, you never know. That would be quite the twist.
Penny’s aura is of an elderly man I doubt it
Called it!!!
@@jameclockwork Called it!
React to chapter 12
I sub just found your channel
Thank you! Hope you enjoy the content!
Spoiler:
JORDIE STOP HOPING TYRIAN DOES BAD THINGS! YOU REALLY ARE DOOMING US ALL! XD
omg jordie seriously needs to stop!
BRUH THE NEW EP! 😩😩
Guys but wishing for a villain to die is also dooming us by inviting even worse villains you all seen that cliche like a billions times in superhero franchises even in anime and cartoons
@@MonkeyDCaleb Welp now I know y'all already seen it too 😂
@@justindeliwe8065 you aren't wrong. But I don't need these facts right now. 🤭😭
OMG imagine if we get Ozpin vs Salem fight, or Ozpin vs Cinder rematch x) and Oscar finds his semblence..
and salem and cinder dies, Neo becomes a good girl and everyone lives happily ever after, also Torchwick and pyrrha come back to life :(
Hitler's a but much lol
Ironwood by far the best character this volume.