Tested | Turf vs R4 snow traction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มี.ค. 2019
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1:37 - if you incorporate a pulley to change the mechanical advantage, you can get your 3,000 pound load cell to read higher - just a thought as I like your quantifiable tests - that speaks volumes for you guys not being afraid of showing what you equipment can actually do - great video as always
Great video Neil! Between you and TTWT, you guys are the reason I bought my BX2380 with turf tires! Love it!
I love that this information is on the internet now. Thanks so much!
I live in northern Michigan. We got over 14 feet of snow this year. Still have a ton. My dealer being used to this, highly recommended turf tires. I have zero complaints about this. I would not hesitate to do so again. I live and work in the woods, and have a quarter mile driveway. My tractor works flawlessly.
Rodney Love
I live in northern MI also. I’ve got R4s. Much better in deeper snow I’ve found, and no comparison in muddy conditions. Best all around tire for my purpose, but I never use my tractor for mowing. I don’t think you could go wrong either way, depending on how you use the tractor.
@@user-bx3zz9cx3y good call. You are probably 100 percent correct. I do very much appreciate Neal's blogs, I just have to giggle at his snowfall. My tractor has definitely been a life saver year after year.
I live in the "thumb" of Michigan my r4 tires did great in the snow this winter
I am from SE Michigan and I actually wanted to go with turf tires but I knew it would not have worked for me. My yard is nothing but clay and I have a 2,700 sq/ft garden which made me go R4. Never been disappointed. R4s do incredible in sopping wet clay, I just wish they were more gentle on wet grass
I would also ad that if using chains, they install / fit (and work) better on turf tires as they don't tend to get buried in between the tread lugs, which can defeat the purpose of chains
R4 seems to be the best tire choice for a all round tire from the woods to your driveway season to season.
Neal thanks for this video. I have been on the fence about buying a set of R4's for the winter but I think I'll hold off to see how the 23s does in the snow.
Thx for the videos! Keep em comin😊
I run turfs on this exact same BX with a rear blower and no ballast or chains. ZERO problems with this cold and very icy winter! I was quite amazed at the performance. My driveway literally becomes a skating rink and I don’t even understand how, but I keep traction enough to blow and even push some with the bucket. However, in mud they are useless!
The more surface area making contact with the ground in ice on turf tires I would imagine helping even if only some. It's like in the USA we have always used tire chains on ice but a newer product from Scandinavian countries called an auto sock or tire sock has been used there successfully decades before approval in the USA. Basically an industrial strength canvas cover over tires and supposedly as much traction as chains. Kind of a visual of the knobs of r4 tires acting like chains as opposed to the greater surface area contacting the ground like that tire sock being the turf tires.
I have turf on my TC 29. I did not expect them to do well in the snow, but they do.
As others have said.... engine is making slightly more power due to the air being cooler and more dense, in combination with the hydraulic oil being cold so the viscosity is a bit higher. Fuel is cooler too.
You want to check the theories, park one in the shop and keep it warm, leave one outside, test.
One thing on the tires, many people run chains for winter use.... one downfall I found this yr with a more aggressive tire lug is the chains run down in the lugs and I don't get nearly the benefit from them as I did with the regular turf tires I had before.
All the tractors 🚜 I have owned have had R4 tires. So I bought a HAND SIPPER and swiped all my tires including my Craftsman gardening tractor and it is now able to TURN on a hill ! My B21 will not get stuck when moving snow ⛄️. A NAVY sailor was tired of slipping on wet decks so Mr. Sipe cut lines in his shoes 👞 and it worked !
Great videos! One difference between your 2 experiments is the lack of rear weight without the backhoe. Would be nice to see the numbers with rear weight in snow.
Great test.
My bx2230 had turfs when I got it. I put ags on it and couldn’t believe how bad the ags were with the front mount snow plow plowing concrete driveways. I now have r4’s. The r4’s work best for me for various terrain but aren’t as good as turfs on snow and ice. The ags are better in mud than the r4’s but the r4’s have better stability with a loader. Your mileage may vary
thank you Neil
I live in Upstate NY and I have a BX1880 and run turf. I use it to plow snow ,blow snow, mow grass and move dirt . I have no added weight and I dont put fluid in the tires and no chains. and I have no problems in the snow or dirt . Neil you say your breifly here anything on turf well here is one on turf. What more you need to know Neil about turfs?lol Turf tires on snow for me work better on snow. More rubber on the ground and if you runs chains all the chain is on the ground. And you know what R4 does allready Neil.
It's a sick feeling when the back of your tractor slides sideways as go go across a hill, R4s have to traction sideways, they're like skis !
Just cost me a $200 tow the other day, misjudged the edge of a bank and even with four tires chained, started sliding down and had no chance of getting out.
So, we are all curious how the new hybrid “R-14” tires compare to both of these. I personally use my BX2230 for everything- snow removal, mowing, moving dirt, as well as tillage on a 2.5 acre field. I’m literally on everything from dry pavement to sandy creek banks to goopy mud and loose dirt and leaves but need to not tear up the lawn. Obviously there is no one perfect tire. They all have some compromises, but it keeps me keenly aware of looking for better tires and curious about any possibility for tractive improvements. In other words- THANK YOU for bringing us along to learn and experience. Great job, Neal and the Messicks team.
Once we have a set on a BX, I'll test them. We have the most data on the subcompacts so far.
I live in Maine in regular snow no ice the R4 tires dominate over turf tires the turf tires pack with snow and turn into racing slicks
Didn't you do the summer test with BX23s with the backhoe on? I'm surprised that extra weight didn't improve the pulling much over the winter test.
I believe you right Neal that temperatures plays some factor in this test. I'm curious about a standard Shuttle Shift Transmission. Have you ever tried a Manual Transmission for this test?
First time I watched this video and I seen you hooked to that skid steer with a sub-compact tractor I was thinking, umm Neil you ain't moving that skid steer with that tractor LOL....then I realized it was your anchor point LOL.
We have 2 B2650's, 1 with turf R-3 the other with an R-1 agg tire and the turf outperforms the agg tire in the snow nearly every time, snowblowing in New Brunswick, Canada 🇨🇦
you waited a long time for snow!
A cyped style tire as in turf tired will generally work better on ice it has more little prickly points biting in. Unless you have real rough hard ice then your knoby tires will hook up on the hard chunks
Could you do a test of pull force that compares forward vs backwards? Sometimes you get more traction in reverse. I am curious if you would get more force snowblowing backwards than forward.
I would bee interested to see the result of a pull in reverse like when using a 3 point snow blower i would feal that the thread of the turf tire would be equal in reverse
Speaking from experience, where I do snow removal, and we get 15 plus feet of snow here every Winter, the Turf Tires are far superior in Winter than R-4's. Especially when its very cold, like 15 or more so below zero F. I have had identical tractors with each type of tire, and the Turf's are by far much better in snow and on ice. I have an L3901 Kubota with Turfs, and my 2nd neighbor has an L2501 with R-4's, plus his are studded with screw in studs. Still no comparison. He wanted to put Turf's on his after he saw the difference, but balked at doing so because of the cost of changing the wheels as well. You can't run Turf's on wheels designed for R-4's. Anyway, this was an interesting comparison, but there are many other factors that need to be considered as well. Really cold temperatures offer greater traction as opposed to say, 35 degrees F. Things start to get soft and squishy as the temps climb, and the snow gets heavier and tougher to move, not to mention the reduced traction on slushy surfaces. Colder temps also give different power availability due to many factors. I'll stick with my Turf's. I have always been well served by them. I don't tromp around in the woods or construction areas so R-4's are really not necessary for me. R-4's DO have their place however, but for my purposes they would be more of a hassle than anything else.
Nope
What's interesting I noticed was the turf tires both front broke loose on the low range pull, while the R4 only one side broke loose. There is still some grunt there, perhaps you would get more pull if you used the diff lock? The left rear tire may not have broken loose.
I saw a slight edge with the turf which was my guess. More knobs, more surfaces. Europe has gone exclusively knobby on new compacts.
Youll probably find you got more pulling power due to the oil in the transmission being colder and thicker so itll slip less essentially. My guess anyway
You should test a bx with the AG type tires, not very common to see but wondering how they would stack up against them
I agree, and then do a similar text in the grass/dirt road
We have a BX 2380 with AG tires where I work and it does better then my BX 25D with R4 tires in the snow. I was wondering the same how would AG tires compare.
@@shelw195 thanks for sharing. That would make a great video..
I agree, I was about to ask the same thing. I really like your videos Neil.
My bx2230 had turfs when I got it. I put ags on it and couldn’t believe how bad the ags were with the front mount snow plow plowing concrete driveways. I now have r4’s. The r4’s work best for me for various terrain but aren’t as good as turfs on snow and ice. The ags are better in mud than the r4’s but the r4’s have better stability with a loader. Your mileage may vary
I'm thinking the difference in numbers in high range may be the result of the last test you had a backhoe on the back and it required more power from the engine to move the extra weight.
Great vid on testing👍 temperature would have be factor as here in Australia it can get hot, fluids change like adblue will break down above 32oC, tractor lose performance and over heat. Dust in air can slow tractor performance, my Holden V8 ute has cold air intake n works better with colder air in winter. Interesting with tyres performance with resistance n quality of rubber, I guess Kubota has great turf tyres.
The reason why your getting more pulling power in the winter is because of transmission relief valve kicking on to save the transmission from the strain your putting on it...in colder temps the oil is thicker it can't pass through the relief valve as quickly therefore keeping your transmission pressure higher...in the summertime when the relief valves kicks fluid will pass through it much quicker because its warmer. These relief valves kick at a certain psi to protect your transmission from damage
I’ve talked to a guy in Canada who has a B2650 with turf tires and he blades/blows several feet of snow each year with very little trouble. I’m shocked that the turf tires do so well in snow but that seems to be the consensus.
hey Neil, to double the capacity of your load cell: attach load cell to the skid steer just as you have done, attach cable to other end of load cell that goes up to a pulley attached to the tractor and then goes back to a solid mount on the skid steer. this effectively halves the load placed on the load cell. double readings and you should be good to go. place a safety blanket over the cable as your pulling to control cable whip should you break the cable... but if you oversize the cable and use proper clamping it should be no problem. Warn makes a easily usable high capacity pulley for attaching to the test tractor.
👍 I bought a 10k cell, but need to calibrate it.
I live outside Rochester ny b2410 turf tires in the snow work great
Hey Neil, thanks for all the videos you post. would you be able to do a video about installing tire chains on a BX23S,,,, if its a good idea?, if you can get away with just installing chains on the front since there isn't much room in the rear with R4 tires. if you can add spacers and then install chains. Any information would be great. I have not found too much definitive answers for this particular model (BX23S). I get a lot of snow where I live so I am wanting more traction cheers
Actually, we're planning on that
I saw a test on race cars years ago. Cold air you can get more air into the cylinders for a more complete burn, therefore making more horsepower. Was about the time Turbochargers came into use. Publcation was probably hot rod or chevy power.
Tough, last time i think the chain was pulling down on the tires while pulling. Now it looks like the chain was pulling up on the tires, lifting them off the ground. so might be able to get even more power with changing that. Could also be the angle of the camera. However, for the purpose of this video, this answered my questions.
I’d be interested to see a lateral grip comparison between the two
Exept if they are temperature compensated, load cell will not give you the same reading at different temperature.
anyone that 4-wheels in snow or mud will tell you: air down for traction; a fully inflated tire will have less traction than a tire that is running at 8psi or less. the low pressure allows a much larger contact patch and allows the tire to more easily conform to the ground. this is why many avid 4wheelers will run bead lock wheels and pressures as low as 3-4 psi, the amount of traction difference is incredible. i put tubes in my Kubota MX4800's tires so that i can safely run lower pressures to get more traction and i've also noticed that there is less rutting on my pastures because the tires are spreading the weight out over a larger area. i'd be curious if you could give that a try and see what the readings are, even on a smaller tractor such as that BX... one note though: Kubota rims WILL NOT run lower pressures without tubes, the rims do not have a good tire bead retention area like an automotive rim would have to keep the bead on at lower pressures, one thing i found out the hard way just after i purchased my brand new MX and one of the tires had a slow leak, hence why they now have tubes.
I was slightly surprised to see the R4 and Turf tires perform similarly. However in my experience the R1 and R2 designs are horrible in snow. With so little contact with the ground and little ability to dig into the ground they slip easier.
I would expect turf tires to be better in snow as they are very similar to the tread pattern of Snow Plus tire which are built for use on snow removal equipment.
The difference in numbers could be from colder fluid, or more likely the tires were colder, making the rubber stiffer. Cold air could also tweak engine horsepower output a bit.
Seemed like a fair comparison. I deliberately choose the turf tires for their multiple advantages. If I need more traction I can put chains on the tires and the chains are certainly more effective over a turf tires than they would be on any style of bar tread. Also the one great advantage of the turf tire wasn't demonstrated here. That would be a side slope. Now if all I was ever going to do was dirt or gravel work I would go with the R4s. Mainly because I consider them to be a stronger tire.
Doesn't matter what tire you've got on your tractor when the snow is 4 feet deep here in upstate NY. Put chains on those tires if you really want great traction!
Mark Loomis agreed. I will say this though...once you’ve got a hard packed icey surface on the driveway, the turf tires will rely 100% on the chains wheras the ag tires will dig when the chains are not directly in contact with the ground. I’m from the Tug Hill region of nys and we chain up around the end of Oct and don’t pull them off until about mid Apr. Where you from ?
Bonne explication dommage le matériels sous les intempéries
One thing about r4s - when you put chains on them, particularly the ladder type, you lose a lot of the links between the treads. Somewhat better with the kind of chains that criss cross the tires, but still lose some. I'd bet that with ladder chains on the rear tires, the turfs would do a little better than the r-4s. I have r-4s on my current tractor and thinking of trading it in. It's one more complication to think about.
I love my R1 tires on my deere 755
I'd say the stall torque had to do with the weight difference between having the loader and backhoe on in the summer test. Like a torque converter in a automobile the stall will be less in a heavier vehicle even with the same torque converter.
The FEL and backhoe used in the dry test weigh way more than #1000, so of course the pulling force will be less
I have turf tires on my bx2680 with a rear snow blower . Had no problems with traction . My dealer told me they perform better because there is more tire contacting the ground .
So, based on that, would the ideal ICE Only tire be a racing slick with only very narrow and shallow transverse grooved to channel the water out to the sides so that it would not act as a lubricant between the tire rubber and the ice? I have R4s on my '05 TC33DA and they seem fine to me. The rears are still the originals with 3000 hours - maybe 10% of that on the hard. sdh in CT hobby farmer with racing on the brain
Wasn't really apples to apple test Neil, machines in previous test had loaders and backhoes.
What was the tire pressures?
My Dealer said I would be better off with Turf tires. I use it on only black top driveway. This winter I have had no problems.
I’m still trying to decide on which tires to get. I want to use it in the woods and make trails with it. Perhaps turf are t the best for that?
R4, because of the heavier side walls.
Haulling oversized loads in northern maine with a truck hauling 200,000+lbs.........i can agree colder temps diesel motors pull better
anthony thibeault not just diesels. Gassers typically produce bigger hp/torque numbers in the cold too.
@@ROTAXD i was thinking so but ive never realy noticed any difference either way on gas as i have hauling heavy loads
Luckily you didn't perform this test with the 1880. It would just drag the skid steer around.
The obvious solution is to have at least 3 tractors....
At least
Are you doing damage to the hydro by lugging it like that or does a pressure bypass prevent damage?
Bypass.
If you still have your mower deck on, it ain't snowed yet. 😂 Just kidding, I appreciate the testing.
Why are you not using the Diff Locked in Low Range?
Yup.
It doesn’t matter. The comparison is about the tires, not how much the tractor can pull
@@user-bx3zz9cx3y The original test he did the Diff was locked for maximum traction. Two tires locked pulling will increase traction over the open differential.
@@joshholcombe77 while it matters to compare the two tests it's sort of also meaningless because you can draw the conclusion of which tires did better or worse in each condition. To be fully fair you'd want to use a single tractor. Swap the wheels and tires for each test and do the dirt traction test also in cold weather. Also you should run all tests on a fully warmed tractor that is allowed to idle the same period of time between tests for hydrostatic trans to normalize in temperature blah blah.
Just so its disengaged in both of these tests you are OK.
but this wasn't exactly the same test. if I'm not mistaken you had a backhoe without the bucket in the previous test.
The cold air is heavier than hot air. Diesels can pull more in cold weather
same with Gas and Jet engines. But you are absolutely right. Cold air is denser.
From my understanding, snow tires on your car work by retaining snow in the spaces between the traction blocks so the snow on snow between the tires and ground gives you better traction, wonder if that's why people find turf tires work better in snow conditions on their tractor.
Did you not have bucket and hoe on first test tractor? The one done on grass.
Do that tesg at 30 below and pushing coulle feet of snow. Not that zlushyou have ghere. By the way colx air makes more hp for torque. That why large diesel have intervooler on them . Cool the air for better fuel burning.
This is the same theory as snow tires... get in some more serious snow and the turfs will perform better! Even though the lugs wont clear out, you get traction from the snow stuck in the lugs and dont just dig holes like the industrial tires will. We have a turf tire and ag tire kubota and the turf is always used in the winter. Both are set up the same other then transmission
When it comes to snow and ice. The more rubber contact, the better...fat treads full of packed snow means all that area is just snow rubbing on snow, which equals 0 traction at that exact point...
Massey Ferguson 2410 with R4's and chains for the snow.
nice video but don't sideload those shackle!!
Shackle is something you put around your leg
Need to repeat these tests now that we have the R14 tire option
I think the difference is that broken grass, has horible traction. And by the way, R1 tires will take both R4, and turf tires, any day, on any surface! :P
Cold air increases engine power output.
Combined with cold air usually bringing wet conditions (depending on region), the added water vapor will add to the heated pressure in the combustion chamber, more so, than it will take away from the fuel-air mix... In other words: Cold and damp = fun and zippy.
@@roflstomps324 _"added water vapor will add to the heated pressure in the combustion chamber"_ -- probably not. Colder air holds a _lot_ less moisture. Relative humidity might be higher, making it feel "damp", but the actual amount of water vapor (absolute humidity) is significantly lower. In any case, water vapor displaces oxygen molecules, lowering the density of the air for combustion. In other words, it's cold, _dry_ air that improves engine power.
Possibly you're confusing ambient water vapor with water-injection. They are two completely different processes, with completely different outcomes.
@@harvey66616 Well, yeah. Sorry. Where I live there is no cold air without damp air and it does increase horsepower in winter despite the damp. Cold, dry air is best, yes.
@Ricky rocky Somewhat, yes. www.carsdirect.com/car-maintenance/how-does-a-cold-air-intake-system-improve-engine-performance
@@roflstomps324 relative humidity and actual humidity are two different things. Actual humidity is nearly the felt perception of moisture in the air, how much water is actually contacting your skin. Relative humidity represents a percentage of water vapor in the air that changes when the air temperature changes. For example, a completely saturated parcel of air at constant pressure cannot hold any more water molecules, giving it a relative humidity of 100 percent. As air temperature increases, air can hold more water molecules, and its relative humidity decreases. When temperatures drop, relative humidity increases. High relative humidity of the air occurs when the air temperature approaches the dew point value. Temperature therefore directly relates to the amount of moisture the atmosphere can hold. For the most part, cold days will always have less humidity than warm days. The increase of power output has nothing to do with humidity, only dense air.
Its most certainly the viscosity of the Hydro fluid. When pushing snow in the winter (-10°f to 20°f), I can use high range most of the time but in summer High range is useless and goes into relief to easy...
More likely it is the increased air density, causing your engine to produce more power. Thick fluid requires more horsepower to move, fortunately the increase is negligible and the increase in engine HP more than makes up for it.
@@thanebaxter the extra ponies from cold air sure helps push the thick fluid but the difference is the relief valve. In the summer it goes into relief and the engine rev stay mostly the same. In winter it bogs and can stall the engine.
Did you ever do this by using R14?
I have everything here to do it, we're just so busy they've not been able to get everything out for me to try.
I think this test would go differently if there was dirt or gravel underneath the snow. People always underestimate turf tires, the do realy good in most all situations. The only time they truly do bad is in wet clay and mud. The tires don't clean out and turn into slicks.
Im an R4 guy. Been using them for 11 years now on both tractors. One sub compact and one compact tractor. I love um.
at the beginning of this video you said lets bring the tractor to max rev. and in the dirt you said 3,000 rpm
I would like to see the same test in grass/dirt with turf, AG and industrial tires. Many of us work our tractors on dirt roads etc...
I did this 8 months ago. It's the video I was referencing.
I wish this video was around when I decided on my compact tractor with r4's instead of the turf tires. I shouldn't have let the dealer talk me into what they had on the lot. Now the cost to swap out all 4 wheels is ridiculous.
If it's a BX, the tires are cheap.
@@MessicksEquip jd 2025r. I was quoted close to $800/pc. For the rear and $300/pc. For the front. Plus mounting and balancing.
Traction is one thing, what about side wall strength in the different tires. Will turf tires fail sooner due to heavy loads on the side walls?
That would be dependent on number of plys, not tread design. Although in my experience people prefer lower ply tires on mowing machines that would typically use turf tires because they soften the ride. Also R4 tires are more of an industrial tire so most people would want the higher ply rating so that the tire can handle more weight and harsher conditions.
@@BillTheTractorMan - Thanks Bill - I recently saw a video that claimed their turf tires failed due to weak side walls. I had Ag tires on my BX when I purchased it used - but replaced with turf tires and have had no problems with traction on snow.
Cold weather makes engines produce more power.
Cold air is more dense than warm air. More air in the combustion chamber = more power
I think this test would have been more consistent if you used something geared or shuttle shift
Do you have to sell the tractors you test with cheaper than usual
THE Herdsmen I wouldn't.
My turf tires on my International seems to pull much better in winter compared to other tires on higher horsepower tractor than mine. My tractor is 18hp International against my neighbor has 23hp Kubota with a loader my tractor is much stronger!
Is yours an older model? The hp ratings companies use today are engine only hp- they literally test it with just an engine and cooling system. That's why there's often a big difference between listed hp and pto hp. hydro system, AC, tranny, final drives, tires, etc, all eat a bit of power. Old tractors were usually rated by the Nebraska test- ie drawbar hp. It's entirely possible, that compared using the exact same standards, your tractor actually does have more usable hp. Try looking both models up on Tractor data.com- they list both new and old units, and have a lot of info to compare.
Growing up, we had a 1940's Farmall model A and a modern John Deere lawn tractor- both were rated at 17 hp. Guess which one could outwork the other all day long? The Farmall weighed at least 3 times as much, and had a 3 or 4 cyl gas engine. (the Deere had a single cylinder Kawasaki engine) Hint: you weren't going to be pulling our disk harrow or 1 bottom plow with the lawn tractor... The Deere would cut the hell out of some grass, though! lol.
The viscosity of the hydraulic fluid at lower operating temperatures should be negligible in this kind of test as the fluid is still within its engineered temperature range.
Not air temp., air density greater at lower temps. More oxygen in the same volume of air.
Why not do this right when it snowed
Because we live in Pennsylvania in had a terrible snow season. Most of it melted off before we had a chance.
Chain up the turf tires
Yep. Even if you use the tractor to cut grass, you can chain 'em up well before the snow gets to you, and after cutting season.
My own experience is R4 is worst on snow and 4WD doesn’t help.
Cold hydraulic fluid has more power and less flow.
R4’s aren’t the best in snow and they are terrible for mowing lawns. They are a construction tire. I’ve owned both.
I hate the R4 tires they suck !!!
r4's on any incline off pavement in snow can't get out of their own way. you'd better have a bigger machine to recover your tractor. I don't like my r4s at all.
I got the r4 tires on mine and she nasty in the snow cant snow it got a 2019 bx 23 backhoe and loader she nasty
Do you mean nasty good or nasty bad?
@@jimwilloughby in the good way