Lithium Camper Battery | Pros v Cons LiFePo4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
- Using a lithium battery on our camper can be an amazing upgrade, but it's not as straight forward as many believe. In this video, we discuss pros & cons of LifePo4 lithium camper batteries in a beginner friendly way. Cost, build quality, cold temperature usage, performance benefits, life expectancy and the need for additional hardware are discussed.
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Products recommended in video (Amazon Affiliate Links*)
LiFePo4 Batteries w/ Great Build Quality for RV -
BattleBorn (on sale)- amzn.to/3ML5yLt
Renogy 100 ah- amzn.to/3q4nPth
SOK & KiloVault Batteries can be purchased from their websites
AGM Batteries with Long Life Expectancy- Other capacities available through links
125AH Vmax Tank- amzn.to/3KGJ7Fd
200AH Renogy- amzn.to/3KKpQTE
^38% more run time than most common drop-in replacement LiFePo4
LifePo4 Equipment needed for tow vehicle-
Battery Isolator- amzn.to/3MS2f5k
Victron Isolated DC-DC- amzn.to/3KJW3Kq
-In my opinion the DC-DC is a battery value than the isolator, it isolates AND deliverers a great charge while driving.
INFORMATION OF WHY ISOLATION IS NEEDED
-Here are some resources to better understand the topic. Every day I read comments online from people who make ill-advised suggestions about tow-vehicle charging of LiFePo4. The topic can be complicated, but generally speaking, all LiFePo4 manufactures recommend "isolating" the tow vehicle from lithium camper battery with one of the above devices.
www.victronenergy.com/blog/20...
battlebornbatteries.com/charg...
diysolarforum.com/threads/lif...
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* Amazon Affiliate Links provide us with a very small percentage of the sale with no additional cost to the buyer. Please support DIYOL by using my links for any Amazon purchase. Thanks! - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Another thorough comprehensive video, Brian. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain the mechanics, application, and evolution of battery use from lead acid to lithium.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Very comprehensive and well explained. Also a great "public service announcement " alerting people to the pros and , more importantly the cons (ie. modifications and temperature limitations) that are necessary to go lithium. Well done Brian!
Glad it was helpful! Appreciate you watching and commenting.
I wish I had seen this video before I wasted my money on an Amazon ampere time 100 amp hour lithium Ferris sulfate battery. Even went so far as replacing the WFCO inverter panel in my camper to the newer WFCO automatic detect. Apparently it switches charge profile if it detects the lithium battery but it doesn’t help any of the other problems such as alternator burn out trying to charge a low resistance lithium battery. Great reviews. Keep them coming. I’ll heed them better next time
Consider disconnecting the charge wire from the 7 pin. Then you’ll have the great features of the lifepo and the WFCO will charge it fine. You’ll have a system that works really well, just no charge from tow vehicle.
Thanks for watching.
All really good points to consider. I'm glad I upgraded to LiPO4 in the 5th wheel. With a rig like yours it makes complete sense to use the AGM.
Thanks for the informative video,
Pat
I mostly run lifepo4, even in teardrops and smaller campers. I’m willing to pay to do it properly and have the DIY experience to save a couple bucks. The main issue that I’m trying to bring some light to is that they’re not simple drop ins. If you don’t provide some isolation between the tow vehicle and understand some of the shortcomings of the chemistry, you’re bound to spend more money for less performance. It’s nice to see the improvement in these batteries, more prep work from the RV manufactures to handle them, and the decrease in pricing across-the-board. Pretty soon it will be the only logical way to go.
A tour de force! Great video, well reasoned, and a nice companion to the previous pitch for lead acid for stripped down RV living.
I really appreciate you saying that. I try to break things into use case, to some it seems like I'm saying two opposite things...lol A hammer is a good tool if you're nailing, it's a bad tool when you have to cut boards...lol
So much good information here! Thanks as always for sharing so much knowledge and real life experience.
I appreciate you tuning in!
As a new subsrciber i'm really liking all your content so far,keep up the good work.
I’m really glad you found us, thanks for watching!
Absolutely Electrifying Presentation!
hahaha ....shocking!
Funny. You basically made a video about why I ended up buying a power station instead of a fixed battery setup for my camper van. It sits in my living room. No heat in summer, no freezing in winter, no shocks from driving around. When I go camping I just have to put it in, tighten two screws to fix it in position, plug it in, and am good to go.
I use the same system...I think it's the most versatile for the money
Which power station
A very thorough review. I'm glad I have a decent knowledge of electricity. I think you lost a lot of campers that have only a basic electrical background and can only digest the "nuts & bolts" of the product. Thank you for your honesty.
It’s tough, I appreciate that feedback. I tried to cut as much jargon as I could, while still getting into the “whys”. Hoping it’s helpful to some.
Thanks for the good info.
Thanks for watching!
Great video. Thanks for the information.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the great info. I just bought a Coleman 17B. I don't think I am changing the 12v source of my camper, but I am running 2-100 ah LiFeP04 batteries to run a separate fridge/freezer and some other smaller items(lights,phone chargers, fans). I have a Renogy 40a dc- dc charger that charges while driving and solar and generator when off grid. I got excites when you said " flip a switch" to change charging profiles. I don't think it is that far away to be honest. Thanks again, great content.
It’s here, I’m seeing it on a ton of new rigs. There’s still a couple issues though. Battleborn recommends you to unplug from in periodically for best results to trigger battery balancing. At least it’s getting better.
Now I know! Thanks Brian!
Thank for swinging by!
Excellent video.
Thank, i appreciate that!
Well said, I loved the analogy at the end. So true! It's funny how so many folks don't understand the price to power - topic. It's so nice to see the market and technology moving forward. Exciting times. Also exciting to see the latest trend of larger portable solar panels from Eco Flow (400w) and Bluetti (350w). CRAZY 🤪. What's next 400Amp LiFePO4 cells?
Mark (& Teresa)
Nuclear!!! lol Thanks for watching.
@@DIYOutdoorLife 🙂
I made the change to a Battleborn battery for my Class C when they first appeared on the market. Haven't looked back. Battleborn advertises them as drop-in replacements for RVs, and so far no issues. My "rookie mistake" story, however, is that I assumed the battery monitor on my RV control panel was monitoring the new Battleborn. And it was, except that because a LiFePO4 delivers full power throughout each cycle, I didn't realize that the panel monitor was telling me the battery was 100% fully charged when it was actually down to 15%!! When I had no power at 3:30AM, I had no idea what was going on. Lesson learned - I now have a Victron shunt installed and monitor it via Bluetooth. Part of my winterization routine now includes removing the battery, running it down to between 80-50%, and letting it sit in the basement until spring. No battery tender required!
@T.J. Kong A much more accurate description. Thanks.
Great stuff here
Late to the party but good information Brian. Lithiums are not for everyone that is for sure.
Thank you for watching.
My wife and I just purchased a new camper that comes with a 50 Watt solar panel and a PWM controller. So they are just putting these on units so they can say it has solar. 50 Watts isn’t going to do much. Love your videos Brian!
It would be a good trickle charger for lead acid?? You might be right that it offered a nice sales pitch... Thanks for watching!
The small panels included with the rig are good for what they are made for...trickle charging. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is people don't know what they are for.
The comment you made about backfeeding your tow vehicle struck me. I have not heard that mentioned before. On a forum I follow, some people are swapping out lead-acid batteries for LiFePo without any system modifications, but I was skeptical that it was a good idea.
I’m in the same forums, sometimes they scare me. It’s hard to even point things out, because everyone knows everything.
There’s a lot of good information put out by battle born and Victron on the topic. Isolation and/or DCDC is an essential component.
Great summary! Hit all the good points. I can see the allure.
Here is the rub ..... Lithium is different not better.
A single $1,000 lithium batter with a 100 amp limit will NOT run a microwave (ok ... not a medium powerful microwave) or any other high wattage appliance ... it takes two or $2,000 of lithium batteries to microwave-warm up a double mocha latte ... but a single new $100 wet cell deep cycle can deliver up to 600 amps and will microwave-warm a coffee .... are microwaves used for anything else? (More amps.)
Predicted lithium supplies are insufficient for the growing electric car market. It is recommended that we save all of it for things like phones. (Future problem.)
Mining lithium now is the easy stuff, but harder mining is a huge poison polluter. (Future problem.)
Companies that do energy storage use the "horse & buggy" wet lead acid battery technology that last over 10,000 cycles - not lithium which does not last as long or as cheap. Kind of a moot point since a set weighs more than your camper (more to the different not better).
Lead acid batteries are all recyclable! Lithium can be recycled in name only ... most ends up as poisons landfill. (Future problem.)
Wet lead acid needs constant maintenance ..... ick!
Lithium batteries can be mounted upside down (cool)!
Like you said, on the lithium batteries the other support electronics stuff will probably fail before the lithium cells fail. If it fails, it costs $1,000 to replace it.
If a $100 wet lead acid breaks, can buy a new one for .... $100! Actually, $89!
I can buy a new $89 wet cell deep cycle battery every year for 11 years and STILL be cheaper than a single $1,000 lithium.
How many electronics do you have that you still use after 10 years ... 5 years ... still work after 5 years?
What new wiz bang battery technology will come out next? Man, that last 5 years have been nuts cool with new products!
Well, this long message forces me to plug my phone into my lithium power station to recharge.
I hope you have been properly schooled 😉
Haha…well done! I definitely appreciate these points. These are great points to bring to the “nuanced“ debate. 99% of the content out there makes people feel dumb if they don’t make the switch.
You’re off with a few of your numbers, but your points remain solid and I agree.
It’s looking like you and I will be the last ones using LA batteries in campers…😂
@@DIYOutdoorLife Yes, the last ones! 🤣
Just a few counterpoints. Lead also has to be mined. Any mining process is disruptive to the environment. Lead acid batteries are far more dangerous to handle than lithium. They contain 80% sulfuric acid, a powerful corrosive. They are also subject to fire and possible explosion. AGMs are safer because they are sealed, and can also be mounted upside-down (cool). Lithium is, in comparison, far safer. You can only use 50% of the available power from LA batteries; lithium provides at least 90% of its capacity (most lithium batteries rated at 100 amps usually have more capacity than 100 amps, but it's not available to prevent complete discharge and failure). So for the same 100 amp availability you have to double your cost for the LA battery option or charge twice as often (and LA batteries probably won't remain at $89 for the full 11 years; lithium costs are coming down fast). And a low flame under a double mocha latte from a propane stove will heat nicely - 600 amps not necessary. As you rightly point out - different, not better. Whenever you're talking energy consumption, you're always dealing in trade-offs.
@@twloughlin I really like discussions like this. Thanks for the thoughts and research.
All your environmental points are valid. It is more of a comparison and degree. 80% of a LA batteries are made from recycled parts, making it the "lowest environmental footprint of any energy storage technology" - if what I read is accurate and timely - probably written by the lead mining consortium 🤣
Unlike the 18650 batteries used many places that burst into flames and water just makes them mad, LiFePO4 batteries, like the Battle Borns, are the safest lithium mix. I believe you are correct that under normal circumstances, those lithium batteries are safer than LA. I cant find good research on danger if in a fire, but I also don't find any warning any more than any LA batteries.
Yes. Agreed that for AH capacity, weight, and holding a high voltage for almost its entire charge, lithium is WONDERFUL! And yes, it takes two 100AH LA batteries to really provide the same long term 100AH capacity.
The point was academically comparing $apples to $apples that the lithium & LA are different but not absolutely better. Yes a $1000 lithium will outperform a $100 FLA except in current and price. What are the benefits comparing it to $1000 of FLA? More academic then practice. I can make toast with my 1300 watt toaster with a $100 FLA, but not with one $1000 Lithium. And that was the rub for me. I need 150 amp continuous for only a 10-15 minutes a day, and that takes big bucks of lithiums .... and I cant seem to peel that many bucks out of my tight fisted wallet - its that darn wallet you know.
Well, back to making toast on a stick and staying with cowboy coffee in a percolator over wood coals. Hmmmm, that $100 battery sounds even better not using it for anything tough.
Well, going to rough it watching a movie plugged into my lithium Power Station now that my phone is charged.
Thanks!
@@mikemead2315 Thanks Mike - an enjoyable conversation! And thanks to Brian for hosting the conversation on his channel!
Thanks for confirming my buying AGM Batteries. $$$$ vs my use of The RV NOW I live in a cold Climate area and well Know the Bad Part of Not Keeping ANY Battery up to charge and "warm"
YES I would Buy Lithium if all the other factors were same But Buying a Lithium Battery vs a AGM to Means going RVing or staying HOME Bottom Line
Good Info Liked you Video !
Especially with the cost of going anywhere right now, I might go camping in my yard!
Just saw an episode of your channel playing with sticks , I am looking to purchased one that mostly done , due to personal circumstances
Nice, what are you looking for?
@@DIYOutdoorLife could you email me not sure how to keep this private
Of course diyoutdoorcontent@gmail.com
@@DIYOutdoorLife hi for some reason Yahoo is not reading your email address
@@freebird1473 diyoutdoorcontent@gmail.com
If you still cant get it to work post yours.
Hi Brian!!! my BW has the auto detect version of charge controller for lead or lithium. am I good to go for plug and play with lithium batteries? do I still need the DC to DC vehicle interface? thanks for any help.
Hey John, the lithium WFCO is a great start, still need the DC DC for the car though. Another solution is to disconnect the charging wire that comes from the 7-pin plug on the front of the BW, that won’t charge when driving but it’s a free solution.
Thanks for watching!
@@DIYOutdoorLife would a battery kill switch be enough ? Thanks again.
@@mudonsunday not without a little more work. Your break away brake controller (and fridge if you have one) require the switch to be on to work. It would be easiest to remove the charging wire, but I understand it can be a pain, there’s a lot of reasons while drop in isn’t quite as they advertise…
Hi Brian, a quick question if I may? Would it be unwise in your opinion to take a run of the mill WFCO charger/distribution box, separate the charge circuit from the 12VDC supply rail and feed the charge circuit's output into a dc-dc converter to then charge a lithium battery via shore power? In theory it should work but I'm not convinced it's good practice. Translation: Sounds kinda janky to me. There're obvious safety concerns, and the battery is going to charge at a lower current than with a dedicated charger with a lithium profile. This is more of a tinkerer's "what if" question I was asked. Anyone I've helped out so far I've set up with solar via mppt, a dc-dc for alternator charging and suggested getting a dedicated charger that supports lithium for shore charging if so desired.
And on a somewhat sad note my teardrop is going away. I let the wife talk me into something slightly larger [16' ] and more conventional [it has a bathroom]. She's just not as much of a teardrop fan as I. Happy camping wife, happy camping life. I wonder if I had her deal with the tanks and ye olde stinky slinky a few times if she'd miss the bushwhacker, hmmm... I digress. The good news is I also have an awesome old Toyota 4x4 project in the garage and now it's going to be getting a topper and a minimal camper build. Truth be told, that little rig will get me out there even further than my current BW and Chevy pu when I need to scratch that get waaaay out there itch which is often enough to warrant having 2 camping rigs. And the best part is that one's all paid for. I'm certainly glad I hung onto that little truck when I got the new one!
It would be a fun project to play with if the parts were free and we didn’t mind a little blue smoke…lol If we wanted to Frankenstein’s monster it, could go the route of a putting in a stand alone AC charger (cheaper than dc dc), cutting the charger out of wfco and patching the wall charger in instead. With the skills to swap, like you said, a full swap with a progressive dynamics converter charger or the Li -model WFCO is going to be cheaper and more effective. Some times tinkering is more fun…
Good luck with the new rig, happy wife happy life!
I recently took delivery of a camper trailer. Found out it has a lead acid battery (660cca). We went on our first overnight campout this weekend and the battery couldn't power my fridge for more than a day... not acceptable. Based on this fact, I did some research and watched this video, then went ahead and purchased an agm (Renogy). I'm hoping I can just plug it in and go. The controller is a Foxsur 7 stage charger. As you might have noticed, I'm pretty novice when it comes to the electrics.
We all learned some how, you’re off to a great start.
Do you have a way to test your voltage… either plug in or multimeter?
@@DIYOutdoorLife Sorry I missed your reply, I don't usually do messaging on here.
I went ahead and bought a 200Ah Renogy AGM and saw a similar amount of run time on the fridge, so I'm really at a loss here.
I do have a multimeter and a voltage light with a prod on one end and a clip on the other. It tells voltage and direction. I got it to try to t'shoot my jeep wiring... no joy there either.
Hey man love your videos, do you have or know where I can get ahold of a max current cable for my goal zero? I have a 1000 that's about 3 years old and need that cable to run my diesel heater. Goal zero doesn't make that cable any longer because they build that technology into the newer units. Or if you know of a work around that would be great too. Thank you
I just got one for someone, they do exist still. Looks like the website has them unavailable. Maybe check ebay or call GZ and ask them when theyre coming back.
I'll keep my eye out, thanks for watching!
@@DIYOutdoorLife thanks for getting back, I have reached out to GZ and they tell me they will not carry them any longer and I have been looking on eBay for a year now with no luck.
@@SleepingGaint bummer, I will see what I can do. I might be able to track one down.
@@DIYOutdoorLife that would be awesome. Thank you
@@DIYOutdoorLife where in NY are you? I used to live in little town called Alden. My in laws live in Seneca falls, headed there next weekend for Labor Day. I have a tear drop made by a company called Campinn, we love it. My girls get that and I have a RRT for myself. Works out perfect.
My brand new 2022 electric motorbike has 2x lithium batteries.. I use & plug in charge everyday .. can I expect 10yrs maintenance free running ?
Lithium is the ONLY way to go for those bikes. You should expect 10 years maintenance free in those. The downsides here are specific to RV application.
Seems you are a fan of SOK, based on the positive comments. I am in the middle of switching over to lifepo4, and really was on the fence. But I just got tired of dealing with the AGMs in my truck camper. New Ac-Dc charger, and will be switching over to a Dc-Dc for truck charge. I ordered the SOK today.
Nice! With the upgraded chargers, you'll be very happy. SOK is top-of-the-line in my book.
If I get a Yeti 3000X and use it for, among other things, back-up power to my home, what would it take for me to use a couple of the Battle Born batteries as extra power in this system vs. buying the "tanks" that Goal Zero sells? Thanks.
Great question, there’s lots of ways to do this, ranging in performance and cost. One really simple way is to hook a goal zero car charger up to the Battleborn. It will transfer 1200 W into the goal zero. There’s nothing fancy about it, and you’ll have to charge the BB when the power comes back, but it is a nice boost.
It might also be better to look at Eco Flo pro for that. Expandable with high quality lifepo, better than the tanks.
amzn.to/3cxeyGi
@@DIYOutdoorLife So you're saying to use the Eco Flo Pro with the Goal Zero Yeti 3000X?
I was actually looking at that unit instead of the Yeti 3000X but then when you talked about some of the limitations of the LifePo battery with regards to temperatures, it got me a bit nervous.
@@JedWunderli if you don’t own the 3000x already, the Ecoflow pro that I linked might be worth taking a look at. Obviously there’s pros and cons to both, but it has an expandable system that uses lithium iron phosphate instead of the AGM tanks from goal zero. I love both systems, but the Eco flow might have an edge when it comes to expandable home back up.
If you already on the 3000X, using some battleborns to expand it is a good solution too. You’ll need a charger to top off the BB’s when the power is on. You can link them on the cheap with the car charger instead of trying to upgrade with the link.
@@JedWunderli both lithium chemistry’s have cold temp limitations. The lighter lithium NMC in goal zero has better cold temp performance and it much easier to heat if needed, both them both have limitations. All of this comes down to the loose kids, when you say home back up, I’m assuming you’ll be able to keep it above freezing. If you’re total off grid or making a prepper set up, there’s some tricks you’ll want to learn along the way to make sure you can charge in any temp.
I’m always here and happy to chat if you want help designing a system, comes down to preference and how you’ll use.
So if I get two 12volt of these batteries? Then I put them parallel? That is the best outcome for a Rv ? In this situation? That’s two 12 volts giving what they give times two? Amp hours?
Yes, exactly. Two in parallel will remain 12 V and double the capacity (amp hours)
@@DIYOutdoorLife your a beauty
Audio at beginning is so low in volume I could not hear the dialog, sorry.
Thank you!! I’m so bad at making these videos, I’ll try to turn my mic up.
I’m sticking with wet 6 volt, saving $ for gas this year.
225 AH?
@@DIYOutdoorLife yes
@@Utah_Mike That's a great system, more gas to get you places will be nice! Yikes!
BattleBorn is overpriced... Period. There are better options
What have you had luck with? Anything with solid cold temp and high end build quality? SOK has been impressive.
False. AGM batteries are NOT cheaper in the long run. Stop the misinformation. Lithium batteries last eight to ten years. You can get a quality Chins lithium 100ah battery for $369.00. Vmax 100 ah AGM battery is $300 and you would need two of them to equal one Chins. That's $600 for AGM that will only last 3-4 years verses $369.00 for a lithium Chins that will last 8-10 years. Do the math. Lithium out performs AGM in virtually every metric. Charge time, constant voltage output and weight. Your video above is very misleading. An AGM battery gets only 20% of its capacity below freezing. Lithium will get 80% + capacity. That's a fact. Voltage sag on AGM's are atrocious. People do not listen to this guy above.
Hey Jay, I’m glad you swung back! It seems like you don’t watch the videos that you comment on. We talked about the charge time, constant voltage output and weight. Also talked about the cold weather performance. In the video we said if those things line up with your use case, lifepo is the way to go. This is what makes your response confusing.
Also, we talked about batteries like Chins, Joybot, Zoon, Ampere Time lacking cold temp sensors. How can you mention the cold weather performance of an AGM, when in the same scenario a chin battery would become permanently destroyed?
I appreciate your enthusiasm for lifepo4 batteries, like I told you last time, we share this. I build these batteries from scratch and use them every day for off grid solar, but I don’t “cook the books” when I talk about them.
I remember from your last post that you use an SOK. Definitely the best value. It has excellent BMS, reliable cold temp sensors, and 4-8k premium cells. Would you honestly use a Chins on your camper? You also use a DC to DC and upgraded your on board camper charger. You paid up for unmatched performance and I bet the system rips.
I hope you would try to hear the nuance in the debate and not get so testy with someone, with 10’s of thousands of hours of experience, trying to outline some realities of RV use. AGM batteries with proper use get considerably longer life expectancy than you quote, we have good data on this and you can’t just make a number up. The moment somebody understands DOD and battery tending, the numbers double or triple. When GOOD lifepo4 comes down in price, it won’t matter.
Like I said last time, I’m pretty sure we’d be friends…lol Happy to discuss how the lab data and real-world RV use intersect anytime as long as we keep it cool.
Thanks for watching.