As I said in my own comment, there are things like that, such as "meet the spartans" but even then they wanted to do the bad thing well (and I find it funny)
There are niche cases where this actually happens, especially in video games where something a bit artsy may have some tedious, unfair, and/or low quality gameplay to try to make you feel a certain way, but this is so far away from anything even remotely like that.
It’s the weakest most smooth brained cope I’ve ever heard “This slop is SUPPOSED to be slop” “Then why don’t you eat something else that’s better and stop eating lazy slop-?” “YOU JUST DONT GET IT”
When did they say they were spending millions of dollars to not be successful? I'd be fascinated for anyone to point where that's said in the transcript. In fact, the guy was clearly stating the BOOK was never made for MASS APPEAL like star wars and Harry Potter. Ie two franchises that have millions of dollars to focus test and research the most profitable appeals possible. Which game of thrones never had when the books were being written.
A lot of these so called "mediocre" and "predictable" fan theories took fans YEARS to come up with by re-reading and carefully analyzing the story. The fact that they were so popular and widely known after so many years of stewing in people's brains doesn't make them mediocre or predictable.
If a fan said "I think Dani will just kinda forget about the Iron Fleet and get one of her dragons killed and then she will burn King's Landing to the ground after it surrenders because she's suddenly so malicious that she will harm herself just as long as she can kill a bunch of people" he would have been laughed off the internet.
@@zigzag1630 that’s exactly what this soyjack seems to be missing: As a creative endeavour, a fan theory is no less legitimate than the story as it is presented. If you take a creative, coherent fan fiction that adequately mimics the narrative style of GRR Martin, and place it on the executive’s desk next to Dumb and Dumber’s raw script for seasons 7 and 8, any reputable exec would see to it that the show turns out an awful lot more similar to the fan fiction.
It also misses a deeper point. You want fans theorizing about your show/movie/whatever. You want them thinking about it. You want them rereading it and talking about it with people and formulating theories and everything this. This is literally the best form of free advertising because it ensures people want to buy the next season/movie/installment of your property. The fact that Hollywood has zero appreciation for this showcases how completely out of touch they are and how little they understand basic human thought processes.
“Amazon sought out to subvert audiences’ expectations by releasing a show that’s not meant to be popular, and it is up to our own selves to pretend it’s what we wanted and see if we like it!” -Thrawnus Bluebaggus
I wish I remember who said it; I only remember that I saw it in, of all things, an MLP-themed post for writing advice (which, believe it or not, actually had some pretty good advice0. There was a qoute from an author who said that all the "rules" about writing are actually more like guidelines. If you're a talented enough writer, you can still have a good story if you bend or break some or many of the rules... except one. There is one unbreakable rule in all of writing: *never waste your audience's time.* That is the pledge between writer and reader, video maker and watcher; "if you partake of this, I will do my best to *not waste your time."* Obviously not everything is going to be for everyone, but sometimes that comes down to subjective taste. There are some people who don't like Lord of The Rings, but that's not LoTR's fault, they're just wrong :P. But when a someone deliberately sets out to violate that one unbreakable rule, that's when there's a problem. Worse, people claiming that expecting the one unbreakable rule of writing to not be violated is ultimate consoomerism; the peak of: "Don't ask questions! Just consume product then get excited for next product!" Calling people "entitled" for trading their finite, 100% non-renewable resource of the limited amount of time they have to be alive and expecting that trade to be honored is apex altruistic materialism. It is turning for the clouds to gigawatt speakers and screaming from the peak of Mount Everest: "I think people exist solely for the sake of the products they buy." They're the kind of people who watch _Fight Club,_hear Tyler Durden say, "The things you own end up owning you," and they flippantly respond: "Yeah? So?"
@@Ramsey276one yeah, it's well documented rags can't comprehend things that don't instantly line up with what he wants to hear. Even 2 more braincells being rubbed together could clearly identify he was saying the books weren't made for mass appeal, just like the sci-fi ones weren't. EFAP in their infinite wisdom insist HBO somehow had full control over the series as far back as the inception of the books, so obviously HBO demanded the books be successful in the sense they instead be rewritten for mass appeal for millions of dollars George rr Martin didn't have
This is what happened with Sherlock, they deadass convinced themselves that the final season was bad on purpose to set up for a secret final episode that would confirm that season 4 was all in the mindscape or something, that all the badness was dream logic.
@@randomcenturion7264 The REAL Thrawn, as in written by Timothy Zahn, yes. The Thrawn we got in the Ahsoka show? No, he really is that dumb because Filoni, who was doing the writing this time, is shockingly dumb. Simply being a Star Wars fan (pre-sequels) and having a lot of good writers on The Clone Wars and even Rebels should have taught him a few things.
The Virgin Thrawn vs the Chad Jigsaw. Thrawn copes and seethes that the countless Ls are according to plan. Jigsaw has the most insane contrivances and conveniences all play into his 4d chess.
"I'm going to spend millions of dollars putting together a car with no windows, doors that fall off, and stops running after 50 miles." "I hate it. I'm not paying for that." "But it's supposed to be bad!"
The problem is that if something was deliberately made to be bad, then its real function is to do something else which it's actually good at. For example the 90's Fantastic 4 film was intentionally bad as it was to keep the rights to the franchise in the least expensive way possible. Disney star wars is notorious for this by using the star power of legacy characters in order to prop up new (and cheaper to hire) replacements so they can churn content on Disney+ cheaper in the long run, with the Rey movie is likely going to be designed on the outset to be the point of theatrical failure of the franchise to absolve the sequel trilogy for it's damages to the franchise. What is the main goal for season 8 of Game of thrones if it wasn't to bring a satisfying conclusion to the franchise?.
@@sophiasfavorite9646 I'd still put that in the unintentional category as that TV show was essentially their interview to it and thus relied on it being good (and stick the landing) for that. Otherwise, I'd say lucasfilm own franchise crisis of quality and reception, that started with TLJ, continued with solo and at the time of Season 8, was still uncertain whether this would continue to happen (we now know it did) there were a lot of unannounced star wars projects cancelled during this time after all that couldn't be repurposed to fit Disney+ obligations, using pandering and fan service to get people's attention to then bait and switch newer and cheaper to hire characters to continue the plotlines forward. Now with the current upcoming projects, you can see that the previous plan didn't work as a lot of people saw through it due to bad writing, and now they're Abandoning ship with the Acolyte being a jedi fest to extract as much money as possible in the budget before leaving TV behind, the mandalorian and grogu being an attempt at turning whatever fan service they had in mind for season 4 into actual profit as Disney+ obfuscates that and the Rey film being the golden parachute in the budget to ride out lucasfilm going truly under.
@@sophiasfavorite9646 wow, where my reply went? TLDR: I say this was unintentional or TLJ's damage and solo's bomb hit lucasfilm hard enough that they cancelled everything that they still could. The Disney plus gambit failed and now the newest projects are their exit strategy to take as much money out of the budget as possible for them or use the fan service for a quick buck at the box office.
… isn’t this the guy who would later come on EFAP try and claim a sexism against Cersei only to then have it shoved in his face that not only did a man receive the same exact punishment as she did… the man had to actually endure the punishment he was given while she never did.
Does that somehow magically make his opening statement that the books weren't designed for mass appeal incorrect? Some random BS he said about something else doesn't affect his opening statement in any way.
@@BobKyle-hz2yi I feel like it should be noted that George actually quit writing because his books weren't selling and he wrote the A Song Of Ice And Fire books specifically because he knew there was an audience for them, and that the audience wanted to buy his books, specifically, as long as they fit into the grimdark genre. Also, I think that a lot of people are unaware that fanzines existed since at least the 70s. People were publishing their own fanfiction and fan theories in those fanzines, that's why the Mary-Sue trope was both established, discussed, and mocked by fandoms before the internet was even a thing. It's why you can see pre-internet shows making references to Kirk x Spock fanfiction, as well as the plot of Galaxy Quest being about fandom, specifically.
You know, it's admirable that D&D managed to write something that was _so_ shit that "it was meant to be shit" is the best defense of it. Like fucking up a cake so bad that "oh it was _meant_ to be a new substitute to glue" is the only defense of the carbonized sludge that you get.
"it was meant to be shit" yet the first three, maybe four seasons were great, before D&D fucked it up. If it was as meant to be shit then those seasons would be as shit as the last two or three.
George RR Martin said HIMSELF if you write your story so that the butler did it, you can't just change it because someone on Reddit guessed that the butler did it, cause in your story the butler DID do it, so pretending the maid did it will ruin your story. HE SAID that if a fan theory is correct, DON'T CHANGE YOUR STORY to subvert expectations because it'll be SHITTER than if you just keep your story how you intended and that fan gets to go "Holy shit I was right! That's awesome!" Subverting expectations is just a bullshit term to excuse bad writing.
Good subversion is like having a puzzle, but of one of those illusions that's a horse one way, but a duck if you turn it upside down. And the entire movie/book/comic the pieces are being put together to make the horse, then at the end **BAM** it gets flipped upside down and it's a duck! All the pieces fit, nothing was hidden, the only thing that was needed was a slight change of perspective. And the good writing part is that you can rewatch the movie and you appreciate all the pieces even more since you know what going to happen this time. That's what good subversion of expectations is.
I'm not sure if this is how you meant it but it's how I interpreted it, was that the subversion was in having the comfort of your preconceptions/biases/delusions stripped away by a reality that was ticking away in the background you weren't paying attention to.
16:00 While, yes, people can take their fan theories way too seriously, one thing should not be forgotten. Those fan theories are based on what happens in the story and they make sense as a possibility of what will happen (not always, of course). That's why when you "subvert expectations" people will be mad when the subversion come from nowhere. Most people don't mind being wrong as long as the right thing makes sense. For example: After the episode where Dany forgot about the iron fleet, for a week we were guessing how they will take King's landing. Some guessed she will attack from underwater, some thought Jaime is going to kill Cercei, I though maybe Arya will finally use her faces and open the gates, some thought Davos will show them a secret entrance. All those were based on one fact: The story told us that a direct dragon attack is not possible. Of course when the solution turned out to be a direct dragon attack, we got mad. Not because our solution was not the right solution, but because the right solution was all wrong. Damn, so many years and that would is still fucking sore...
Agreed. I am not mad because my theory is wrong. I am mad, because a bunch of nerds like us took more time to consider the plot and characters than the damn writers did. We're mad because cared so much about something the people in charge cared so little for. It's like training so hard to play basketball, only to see this absolute clown get a high paying job Fucking it up and not caring in the slightest because he knows he won't get canned.
Chekov's gun can be a subversion in itself. Example from a manga: Mortal is wounded. A god requests their brother heals that wound. Brother refuses. God gives the mortal a mark that allows them to ask a favor from that family of gods. Mortal asks to be healed. Wish is granted. Later in the story the mortal comes across another god from this family and makes an unreasonable request, which is granted because the mortal still bears that same mark. That's both a subversion and a payoff, I'd argue.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Martin himself was quoted that something along the lines of “ it’s ok that your twist was guessed by people and that changing it just to spite that theory is bad cause you are throwing away all the build up you had for a cheap gotcha”. Wouldn’t that be funny that this pompous guy be absolutely wrong about what Martin wanted
"Trade out straight forward character arcs and cathartic victories for messy, soul crushing realism" I hate people who say this about Game of Thrones and ASOIAF so much. This type of thinking is the same reason he said the end of the show was "returning to something more George RR Martin". The books are still very well written, there are still tons of character arcs, there's still lots of victories and good triumphing against the odds. They aren't good because they are "dark and gritty and realistic, this isn't your grandmother's fantasy series". Martin doesn't just write depression porn. He is a very good and a very deliberate writer who is able to write extremely compelling events that grab people's attention and wow them. The show isn't good because it's "realistic" and season 8 isn't "George RR Martin-y" because a bunch of sad stuff happens.
Or even in the “soul-crushing realism” moment, GRRM still tried his hardest to make it make sense. When Red Wedding happened in book 3, it was set up ever since book 1. Robb and Catelyn had interesting relationship with Walder Frey for a long time and it’s slowly revealed in book 2 that the Boltons are not trustworthy so when things happened, it’s shocking but also left the feeling that Robb, Catelyn and the readers “should have seen it coming” because there are clues everywhere. Meanwhile, Arya stabbing a Night King or Daenerys nuking everyone in King’s Landing but Cersei, that just came out of nowhere. Arya has no relationship or care about the White Walkers and Dany was being heroic and risking her life to protect everyone on the planet just 2 episodes before. If they wanted a sad realistic ending that much, why not let Jon fight the Night King *and loses* ? It would make sense because losing against the bad guys is a trademark for the Stark family and the emotional investment is earned because Jon had been trying to stop the Long Night since day one. He cared about protecting humankind so much that he never thought of killing the Lannisters to avenge his family even though he had the opportunity to kill Tyrion and Jaime right there, in front of his face. But nope Jon must be lobotomized into saying just “She’s my queen” and “I don’t want it” then screeching in front of a dragon for no reason.
The people who make claims about "soul crushing realism" tend to forget that Joffrey basically signed the death certificates for both himself and much of his own family by killing Ned Stark. The dude has friends everywhere because people remember the good and kind lord (especially the people of the North), and they're willing to lay down their lives to protect his family. All but one of the Northern houses united to avenge him and protect his children, if I'm remembering right. Even The Red Wedding couldn't crush them. Heck, The Red Wedding seems to preface where things REALLY start to take a downward spiral for the Lannisters, starting with Joffrey and then Tywin shortly after, with the super genius running off to join the rebels on top of that. Yeah, the Lannisters be winning, alright. Like, even a cynic like Martin understand that.
If it was "realistic" most of the main characters would have died of some plague before the 2nd book and we would be left following some peasants going on about their daily lives during the plague XD
"It's fan entitlement that causes literally 100% of misunderstanding which they then blame on the writers." I spat out my tea. Jesus. Hi, writer here! Fucking up your own characters is not only a common issue for writers, especially when writing several books in a series, but it's also something that's incredibly easy to do because PLOT or THEME or AND THEN needs to happen. Bad writing exists. Objectively bad writing exists. Or perhaps not, it seems. I'll have to let my publisher know if the next book gets bad reviews because I took my eye off the ball it's actually 100% fan entitlement that's to blame. Jesus fucking Christ.
Some people write a story and ask themselves "is this going to connect with people? Never heard of someone writing a story and proudly saying "this is not going to connect with people"
23:00 Um Frodo wasn't conflicted. He completely succumbed to the ring. It was only because of Gollum's greed and absentmindedness that the ring was destroyed. A huge point of the story is that almost no one can resist the ring after a certain period of time. The reason why Mt. Doom doesn't have orcs guarding it is because Sauron knows this.
Who in the right mind creates a show with the idea of it won't be popular? Not just from a company stand point, which exists to make as much money off a product as possible, but as an actual creator, why would you make something with the express idea of it not suppose to become popular? Sure, you can have a negative outlook of writing a story or drawing pictures thinking you won't ever get super popular but doing such things with the express idea of what you are creating isn't suppose to be popular? That sounds crazy to me.
Well, many art house films are made specifically to be "niche" in a "you wouldn't understand" sort of way. But they also tend to be shit films with little to no structure or meaning. Contrarian just for the sake of it.
He never once said the show wasn't meant to be popular. Efap were the ones putting words in his mouth. He very clearly said the books weren't written for mass audience appeal. Ie they wouldn't be popular to the extent of Harry Potter and star wars
I think he meant it like: "They could create something to appeal to mainstream viewers, or something that would be closer to their creative vision but alot of people wouldn't like.
ser Barristan Selmy, aka that old Kingsguard who showed up to help Daenerys, dying unseremoniously to some scrubs in the show is the final major deviation from the source that separates GoT from Song of Ice and Fire. I can tolerate changes for adaption but for this they are in my mind completely stories separate from each other. Pretending GoT later season sucking because of G.R.R. is absolute cope and HBO ass kissing
I hadn't read the books when that happened, and Ser Barristan dying while grey worm survived was the moment where my opinion of the show started to drop quite fast.
What if Disney was never meant to make money? What if movies were always meant to die as a medium? What if Long Man wasn't Long? What if Silver Surfer was a girl? What if Zelda was a girl? The garbage click-bait titles are endless!
@@skarlock5257 My gawd! Let's just hope they never go overboard and put her in heels. That might pushing it! ...Unironically, I do think that design was dumb and heard even Samus' creator was against it.
@@EndThusIAm yeah, The heels are like putting a hat on a hat. Heck even concept art from metroid zero mission where the zero suit was first introduced point out that she shouldn't be in heels.
@@matthiasthulman4058 - Eh, I'd be more into keeping Fringy and having Rags mostly swapped for wolf if the stars aligned, with rags being most on point in shotty game discussions IME, but to each their own.
"Not me though, I'm not entitled, sure I lose sleep at people not adhering to the prescriptions I lay out for them and I'm personally offended that they feel they can do that but still..."
I had no interest in watching about it when everyone was talking about it either. Before S8 came out, I Was stuck someplace and decided to start watching. I have never been so immersed/attached to a story. So you can probably figure out I have felt about S8
@reginaldcampos5762 I don't know if you're making a joke, because last I heard, he had ordered the notes to be destroyed and specifically said he doesn't want someone else to finish it. If that's the joke, I am sorry the internet has ruined me.
@ragingmoderate6791 yeah, i know, he hates fan fiction. But I doubt his publication would legally allow his works on WoW to be destroyed, but it's hard to say whether the series would be concluded, considering how much he hates other people writing stuff based on his works. And, regardless, it's hard to say if his notes (should they survive) have anything substantial in Dream of Spring besides the ending. The series is cooked.
You know, maybe writers shouldn’t attempt to “subvert expectations” since it’s led to some disastrous results and it’s butchered so many franchises because of it.
The sad thing is, they are so arrogant that if you tell them this, they will actively do it more out of SPITE. Like how Rooster Teeth doubled down on any bad writing decisions to spite critics.
You can subvert expectations but it's difficult to do it well. It requires genius to do it correct but so few can, hence why idiots like D&D and Rian fucked up with that and made that saying cursed. Like the Strong, independent woman, it got done so badly so many times people now hate it, same as me.
@@RhysCallinan-hf7qx because writing a good subversion basically requires writing 2 stories on top of each other. You can't just go "all according to plan" and pretend your twist makes sense.
The thing is that after the ending of the show, I very much doubt Georgy boy will ever finish those books at all. That he's been filling his time with other projects entirely is more evidence to this. He may as well have washed his hands of it, and hopes nobody notices.
I think he's just written himself into a corner because its a MAMMOTH of a series that is extremely complex. You lose motivation when you don't know how to go forward.
These people genuinely cant tell the difference between "subverts expectations" and "not internally consistent" The red and purple weddings, Ned stark getting unalived, the battle of the blackwater, theyre all moments that define GoT and are the reason the show became an icon BECAUSE they all subverted audience expectations. But they all did so while follwing every established rule and plot point that came before. They make total logical sense even ifnthey arent predictable or cathartic. Whereas starting with season 5 and getting worse as the show went on (and more importantly as D&D ran out of books to copy) the narrative started to break its own rules and treat plot threads like "and thens" as opposed to "therefores". Plotlines and characters started contradicting themselves in order to "subvert expectations" and the whole thing collapses under its own weight because the underlying structure stopped being built after season 4
I think season 1 works so well because in a way the audience in taught to expect subversion: no matter what the situation looks like, the hero of the story can't die. ... but the hero dies, because he made too many powerful enemies.. because obviously. It makes more sense.
I think you're right. A lot of subversions were of tropes that came from the prevalence of writers to keep a certain character alive or successful when there's no reason for them to be. Or to put another way, the subversion was that the writer wasn't going to intervene this time to stop the events in motion. Instead, D&D took it back to the tropes and writing that made that original subversion well... Subversive.
GOT was all of those things. Shallow spectacle over good story for corporate greed, Arya killing the Night King or everything around Sansa was pandering to a particular demographic and the loose plot points not connecting ore interacting with one another is lack of creativity.
At this point, the biggest subversion of expectations would be if they wrote a good script with basic cause & effect relationships and logical consistency intact.
I know the Red Wedding was coming and it still surprised me. Robs wife wasn't killed in the books. They just forced her into drinking moon tea. Just incase she was pregnant with Rob's child.
That’s mainly because in the book Rob marries a girl named Jain Westerling, a daughter of one of Tywin’s bannermen. Rob didn’t see a chick cut off a leg sexily one time and get the big horny, he got wounded in battle, was given guest right by the westerlings, and was intentionally seduced.
The guy seems stuck on the assumption that fans only want predictable stories but obviously people love to be surprised. It's just that they want the surprise to make sense. This is the challenging bit for writers who want to be unpredictable --- to not merely write the most obvious solution but an alternative one that is equally logical.
Coming from an author struggling to get noticed in an over-saturated field; It chaps my ass when I see hacks running around turning in what amounts to them wiping their unwashed ass across their pc monitor and calling it writing.
I've said this before too. Now that practically anyone can get published, we are swamped with the most asinine, high school level fanfic nonsense. It drowns any real up and coming authors under mountains of trash.
If Riann Johnson had discarded all those plot points and created something that was actually good, I'm confident those "fan theorists" would be perfectly happy
Since when was Star Wars and Harry Potter not subverting expectations? They were both film series that had pushed forth new ideas that audiences haven’t seen before that. Just because we look at it in hindsight as classics and have generations of copycats doesn’t mean they weren’t pioneers in their fields.
26:00 oh I take mediocre over a train wreck any day of the week. Back when the last season was coming out, I held the opinion that even if the end isn't great, as long as it doesn't shit the bed, the series will belong among the greatest. Sadly it shit the bed, the carpets, the floor under the carpets, the ceiling, the walls, the doors, the windows and somehow the neighbors cat.
Didn't George say he stopped caring about the show? How can he be so sure it's his "artistic vision"? Besides the fact that execution is also incredibly important, some things might make more sense when properly set up. Such an odd "defense"
I mean, my favourite fan theory was that the Night King was gonna tear arse and kill everyone and sit on the Iron Throne. By season 8 I hated all the characters and just wanted all of them to die so I wanted the friggin Night King to win
I'd honestly vibe with this. Fuck it, we've already ruined everything by this point, I don't want any of these edgy pricks to win, just let the Ice Cream Man win.
"These bits made me feel bad so they must have been made by this guy, because these other bits make me feel nice and i like that." Basically the entire video.
The ending of Game of Thrones disappointed a lot of people precisely because it was too optimistic and happy. I personally would have preferred to see Circe win the Game of Thrones simply by being the last remaining human ruler, leaving her as the unquestioned sovereign of a mostly dead world. Instead they went with a permanently chair bound king and his sisters as lesser royalty beneath him when, in a realistic Medieval setting, all of them would be killed and replaced in rapid succession so that a literal and metaphorical political strong man could take their place.
If you're making big budget projects with the intention that it won't be popular, I'm going to assume you're doing some kind of money-laundering scheme straight out of _The Producers._
No matter how many bad shows and adaptations get made, imo none will ever be as destructive as game of thrones season 8. A season so bad that it nuked the most popular tv show off the face of the earth. I don't care if there are worse shows. To me got season 8 will always be the worst season of television i've ever seen. And one of the worst pieces of media ever made.
Two things have brought me to that level of hate. The Last Jedi: AKA the only movie I ever walked out of a full 30 minutes before the end. RWBY Volume 3, who's second half made me so disgusted and angered, I nearly summoned a Daemon of Khorne through hate alone.
The "never meant to be popular" argument has one merit: deliberately seeking popularity often means making something accessible by lowering the barrier to entry, thus eliminating what makes it unique. If you want an example of how this ruins things, game of thrones is the easiest example to point to. Sometimes, it's better to have something remain a niche, but that's the complete opposite of what the showrunners of GoT intended.
Fantasy is a niche genre. like many niche genres they are based on fairly universal themes. And can therefore be expanded to a popular audience. The ultimate example is that JRR Tolkien basically wrote his story for his kids and it turns out everybody loves them except for George Martin. Lol.
When the expectation is that a main character like Ned should survive the first season and he dies, that is a subversion, expecting a show to be good and it’s bad is not a subversion
To be fair, I think there is some reasonable argument that ASOIAF was never meant to be 'popular', and by that I mean it was never expected to achieve mainstream appeal. George's style and content really is quite niche, alien hivemind's, blood sacrifices, etc definitely aren't mainstream things to include in a story, and unlike the show, GRRM's books are absolutely chock full of this stuff, front and centre. Doesn't mean it was impossible to become popular, but it's not your average 'hero's journey' story, and that does tend to put a lot of people off. But, having said that, Game of Thrones, was a different beast. Right from the onset, D&D main an effort to strip down George's story and remove almost all the fantastical, magical elements of the story. That might sound weird if you've only ever watched the show, considering the dragons, the wights, warging, etc, but that stuff really is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what we are given in the books. They only included the fantasy elements that they absolutely had to in order to actually tell the story, everything else was taken out to appeal to "bros and soccer moms" and a more mainstream audience as a whole. Game of Thrones was absolutely made to be 'popular', they specifically removed the more niche and fantastical elements of the original story so they could appeal to more people, and it's ultimately part of why the ending sucked so bad. Throughout George's books, the story has only ever trended towards more magical aspects, which left the show hamstrung in terms of what they could actually do in the later seasons because the source material was less and less relevant to the story they were telling. It's no surprise they completely skipped 90% of the content in Feast and Dance, it didn't apply anymore. It was trying to 'make it popular' that made GOT such a disaster in the end, because it was trying to tell a different story, with the same parts, and it doesn't fit.
I never thought that I was entitled to spend time, money, and investment for a disappointing story. It was a privilege to get nothing in return from all that.
'Meant to be bad' is rising up the ranks of my least favorite things people say. Though it has a long way to go before it overtakes "subverting expectations" for top spot.
People make the same argument with The Walking Dead, it’s a shame because that show had a lot of potential to be at least remembered fondly even if it went on too long, but half the fan fiction is better than the main show.
9:19 to 9:40 Yeah, when people don't like something that happens in a show they love, they often go easy on it because of what may happen later. But at the very end, giving benefit of the doubt is no longer possible. And I did see many fans gamely giving that benefit of the doubt all the way up to the start of the very last episode. E.g. after the penultimate ep there was much speculation on what the significance was of the white horse Arya found - such as that it might symbolize something that would happen, or that it was a spirit or a warging Bran who had come to save her. But of course there ended up being no payoff, and it was just a very convenient horse.
I never got into GOT until 3 weeks ago when a friend of mine told me to watch it and I had herd that it crashed and burned after season 6. Now I’m in season 7 (yeah I binged watch it and there were things that I did like and some that I didn’t such as fucking bran still alive somehow revealing these secrets that have me going “WTF!”) and yeah I agree with effap. As much as I was so freaking sad at Ned’s execution and Robb’s death that is not subverting expectations but rather something that is shocking but that serves a purpose. As much as I would have wished Ned survival or Robb’s surviving the red wedding, it served a purpose. Now with (as season 6 seems to hint at the end) Jon’s reveal of his “secret lineage” I’m starting to doubt the whole storyline because the writers are like “let’s introduce something shocking that would have the viewer wondering” instead of fan service apart from the villains being killed for killing the “good guys”
@@Radio.Jump857 I mean yeah I see your point but the reason I say that it’s a twist for the sake of it is because idk it doesn’t make sense as there wasn’t a build up to it apart from “oh he’s a bastard who never knew his true mother and ned never talked about it.” Also in the sense that yeah they say that Ned’s sister was raped, which ok but why wouldn’t they through the question around that maybe an baby was conceived and also the way how it was introduced through bran. If somehow a person other than bran would have discovered the true origins of Jon it would have made sense because something that GOT has thought me is that there isn’t a secret well enough guarded to remain as such for a very long time and knowing how noble Ned was, I can’t believe that he didn’t told at least his wife or somebody who was far away such as in the wall to then have it revealed to the audience.
Audience: you ruined our investment for fun? HBO: You were never meant to get this far honestly. D&D: I mean yeah, that's how we get our kicks Audience: you bastards!
In George RR Martin's books, Walder Frey's title is "Lord of the Crossing." He is the owner of a castle, formally known as The Crossing, but colloquially referred to in the story as "The Twins". It is called The Twins, because it consists of two identical, or Twin, castles, at opposite ends of a bridge. It is a double castle. A double castle called "the Crossing". Walder Frey is the Lord of the Double Crossing. By the logic of the video being analyzed, George RR Martin is a mediocre writer, since he set up Walder Frey as a traitor when he CREATED the character. The description of his castle, and its name and his title, were all revealed in the first book. Furthermore, people in universe who know Walder Frey think of him as a treacherous type. In his first on-screen appearance, Frey claims superiority over others based having 21 sons, more than anyone else in Westeros, saying, for example, that he can match Ned & Catelyn son for son, and have eighteen left, or that he can match Tywin and have nineteen and a half left. Basically, he is saying, he can afford to lose a son for every son of an enemy he kills, and still come out ahead. At the Red Wedding, Catelyn tries to trade the life of one of Frey's descendants to gain Robb's freedom, and Walder does not care, just like he foreshadowed with his speaking of his offspring as expendable resources. At the conference following Robb's victories and Ned's murder, when the Stark allies are debating about their course of action going forward, Walder's son and heir suggests waiting out the wars between the kings and seeing who is winning, and how much they will pay for the aid of this alliance. This is what the Freys do, in future books, seeing who wins the fight for the Iron Throne and then offering to sell out Robb to the Lannisters, when Renly & Stannis are both defeated. In book 2, there are a pair of Frey children who are sent to Winterfell as wards, as part of the alliance between the Starks and Freys, and these boys don't get along with Bran. They play a game called "Lord of the Crossing" which mostly involves lying and trying to trick each other. They torment the retarded Hodor, and are happy to hear about the death of their uncle, because it increases their prospects. When the castle falls to Theon, the Frey boys become his sidekicks and eagerly join his efforts to hunt down the escaped Stark boys, even though their families are supposed to be allies. Other Freys are shown to be ineffectual cowards as well. Throughout the first 2 and a half books of the series, GRRM is shitting all over the Freys, presenting them as cowards who will stab you in the back. He names and designs their castle to be a clever pun about treachery. I read a blog who claimed that she realized the Freys were about to spring their treachery by a description of the food at the wedding feast, because it was crappy food, in a culture where you get status from being a good host and throwing nice feasts. What the description of crappy food did, was tell this reader that the Freys did not care about the impression they were giving with the poor meal, because everyone eating it was going to die, and they didn't want to bother with the effort for dead men walking. If Martin were a good and creative and ingenious writer, he would have subverted all the expectations by having the Freys prove to be strong, or heroic or useful, and above all, loyal to their liege lord's cause. The treachery that brings down Robb would have come from a completely unexpected and random direction, and not the family who can't beat you face to face and are afraid to be on the losing side, as well as being symbolically set up as traitors by nature.
Honestly, as of season 3, I found Daenerys to have a cruel, overzealous and at times hypocritical streak. It frustrated me that the show seemed to gloss over it. I wanted to see Daenerys become the mad queen. Ever since season 3, I had actively been rooting for that to happen. I still hate the ending, because the way they went about it was shit. So no, it's not that to fans, good writing equals having your expectations rewarded and fans just get upset when that doesn't happen. I got what I expected from her and it was crap.
What is that whirring chugging machine noise in the back ground when Mauler speaks?!? It makes it hard for me to listen to this old stuff on headphones 😅
Stage 4 Copium:
"They made it bad on purpose."
The finale panel of the clown makeup meme XD
I mean the writing at the end was so detrimental to the story it might as well be sabotage
As I said in my own comment, there are things like that, such as "meet the spartans" but even then they wanted to do the bad thing well (and I find it funny)
There are niche cases where this actually happens, especially in video games where something a bit artsy may have some tedious, unfair, and/or low quality gameplay to try to make you feel a certain way, but this is so far away from anything even remotely like that.
"They made it bad on purpose"
"Then why do you like it?"
When is "its allowed to be bad" going to die as an argument.
Me: There's a fly in my loud soup.
Waiter/Waitress: It'S sUppOsEd tO bE bAd
It’s the weakest most smooth brained cope I’ve ever heard
“This slop is SUPPOSED to be slop”
“Then why don’t you eat something else that’s better and stop eating lazy slop-?”
“YOU JUST DONT GET IT”
That argument will die when some heads start rolling.
It is not allowed to be bad if I am paying for it.
@@silverheart4049 here here
"we're going to spend MILLIONS of dollars for no one to watch" genius
Wait a minute isn't that Paramounts tactic?
She-Hulk maneuver
“Why make billions, when we could make millions?”
Great profile pic
When did they say they were spending millions of dollars to not be successful? I'd be fascinated for anyone to point where that's said in the transcript.
In fact, the guy was clearly stating the BOOK was never made for MASS APPEAL like star wars and Harry Potter. Ie two franchises that have millions of dollars to focus test and research the most profitable appeals possible. Which game of thrones never had when the books were being written.
A lot of these so called "mediocre" and "predictable" fan theories took fans YEARS to come up with by re-reading and carefully analyzing the story. The fact that they were so popular and widely known after so many years of stewing in people's brains doesn't make them mediocre or predictable.
If a fan said "I think Dani will just kinda forget about the Iron Fleet and get one of her dragons killed and then she will burn King's Landing to the ground after it surrenders because she's suddenly so malicious that she will harm herself just as long as she can kill a bunch of people" he would have been laughed off the internet.
@@zigzag1630 that’s exactly what this soyjack seems to be missing: As a creative endeavour, a fan theory is no less legitimate than the story as it is presented.
If you take a creative, coherent fan fiction that adequately mimics the narrative style of GRR Martin, and place it on the executive’s desk next to Dumb and Dumber’s raw script for seasons 7 and 8, any reputable exec would see to it that the show turns out an awful lot more similar to the fan fiction.
It also misses a deeper point. You want fans theorizing about your show/movie/whatever. You want them thinking about it. You want them rereading it and talking about it with people and formulating theories and everything this. This is literally the best form of free advertising because it ensures people want to buy the next season/movie/installment of your property. The fact that Hollywood has zero appreciation for this showcases how completely out of touch they are and how little they understand basic human thought processes.
“Amazon sought out to subvert audiences’ expectations by releasing a show that’s not meant to be popular, and it is up to our own selves to pretend it’s what we wanted and see if we like it!”
-Thrawnus Bluebaggus
Bilbo memes will live on!
Some deep lore in this comment. As the spiders foretold.
I despise the entiltlement argument. Writers are not untouchable. We have so many shit writers these days. Modern entertainment have never been worse.
I wish I remember who said it; I only remember that I saw it in, of all things, an MLP-themed post for writing advice (which, believe it or not, actually had some pretty good advice0. There was a qoute from an author who said that all the "rules" about writing are actually more like guidelines. If you're a talented enough writer, you can still have a good story if you bend or break some or many of the rules... except one. There is one unbreakable rule in all of writing: *never waste your audience's time.*
That is the pledge between writer and reader, video maker and watcher; "if you partake of this, I will do my best to *not waste your time."* Obviously not everything is going to be for everyone, but sometimes that comes down to subjective taste. There are some people who don't like Lord of The Rings, but that's not LoTR's fault, they're just wrong :P. But when a someone deliberately sets out to violate that one unbreakable rule, that's when there's a problem.
Worse, people claiming that expecting the one unbreakable rule of writing to not be violated is ultimate consoomerism; the peak of: "Don't ask questions! Just consume product then get excited for next product!" Calling people "entitled" for trading their finite, 100% non-renewable resource of the limited amount of time they have to be alive and expecting that trade to be honored is apex altruistic materialism. It is turning for the clouds to gigawatt speakers and screaming from the peak of Mount Everest: "I think people exist solely for the sake of the products they buy." They're the kind of people who watch _Fight Club,_hear Tyler Durden say, "The things you own end up owning you," and they flippantly respond: "Yeah? So?"
George Lucas...
We ARE entitled to something good. These aren't free products.
that's what happens when you have untalented nepo babies with access to chatgpt.
''We have so many sh*t writers these days''
Are you implying that writers back then where better???
The prequels(Star Wars) say otherwise mate.
What a perfect start. "...What?!"
The ONLY appropriate response!
XD
@@Ramsey276one yeah, it's well documented rags can't comprehend things that don't instantly line up with what he wants to hear.
Even 2 more braincells being rubbed together could clearly identify he was saying the books weren't made for mass appeal, just like the sci-fi ones weren't.
EFAP in their infinite wisdom insist HBO somehow had full control over the series as far back as the inception of the books, so obviously HBO demanded the books be successful in the sense they instead be rewritten for mass appeal for millions of dollars George rr Martin didn't have
This is what happened with Sherlock, they deadass convinced themselves that the final season was bad on purpose to set up for a secret final episode that would confirm that season 4 was all in the mindscape or something, that all the badness was dream logic.
@@mr.froglegs I had forgotten THAT
Thanks hbombrerguy for letting me know of that OMEGACOPIUM!
XD
That is the kind of argument new Thawn would make. "Grand Admiral, you are fucking this up" "Yeeees, all according to plan".
Only at least Thrawn would reveal it really all was according to plan.
@@randomcenturion7264
The REAL Thrawn, as in written by Timothy Zahn, yes. The Thrawn we got in the Ahsoka show? No, he really is that dumb because Filoni, who was doing the writing this time, is shockingly dumb. Simply being a Star Wars fan (pre-sequels) and having a lot of good writers on The Clone Wars and even Rebels should have taught him a few things.
The Virgin Thrawn vs the Chad Jigsaw.
Thrawn copes and seethes that the countless Ls are according to plan. Jigsaw has the most insane contrivances and conveniences all play into his 4d chess.
"I'm going to spend millions of dollars putting together a car with no windows, doors that fall off, and stops running after 50 miles."
"I hate it. I'm not paying for that."
"But it's supposed to be bad!"
Wait, isn’t this Boeing right now? 😂
The problem is that if something was deliberately made to be bad, then its real function is to do something else which it's actually good at.
For example the 90's Fantastic 4 film was intentionally bad as it was to keep the rights to the franchise in the least expensive way possible.
Disney star wars is notorious for this by using the star power of legacy characters in order to prop up new (and cheaper to hire) replacements so they can churn content on Disney+ cheaper in the long run, with the Rey movie is likely going to be designed on the outset to be the point of theatrical failure of the franchise to absolve the sequel trilogy for it's damages to the franchise.
What is the main goal for season 8 of Game of thrones if it wasn't to bring a satisfying conclusion to the franchise?.
@@mikzpwnz_3199 Tie things up so D and D can go work at Star Wars…which fell through after Lucasfilm saw how badly they bungled Game of Thrones.
@@sophiasfavorite9646 I'd still put that in the unintentional category as that TV show was essentially their interview to it and thus relied on it being good (and stick the landing) for that. Otherwise, I'd say lucasfilm own franchise crisis of quality and reception, that started with TLJ, continued with solo and at the time of Season 8, was still uncertain whether this would continue to happen (we now know it did) there were a lot of unannounced star wars projects cancelled during this time after all that couldn't be repurposed to fit Disney+ obligations, using pandering and fan service to get people's attention to then bait and switch newer and cheaper to hire characters to continue the plotlines forward.
Now with the current upcoming projects, you can see that the previous plan didn't work as a lot of people saw through it due to bad writing, and now they're Abandoning ship with the Acolyte being a jedi fest to extract as much money as possible in the budget before leaving TV behind, the mandalorian and grogu being an attempt at turning whatever fan service they had in mind for season 4 into actual profit as Disney+ obfuscates that and the Rey film being the golden parachute in the budget to ride out lucasfilm going truly under.
@@sophiasfavorite9646 wow, where my reply went? TLDR: I say this was unintentional or TLJ's damage and solo's bomb hit lucasfilm hard enough that they cancelled everything that they still could. The Disney plus gambit failed and now the newest projects are their exit strategy to take as much money out of the budget as possible for them or use the fan service for a quick buck at the box office.
… isn’t this the guy who would later come on EFAP try and claim a sexism against Cersei only to then have it shoved in his face that not only did a man receive the same exact punishment as she did… the man had to actually endure the punishment he was given while she never did.
What episode was that?
Does that somehow magically make his opening statement that the books weren't designed for mass appeal incorrect? Some random BS he said about something else doesn't affect his opening statement in any way.
@BobKyle-hz2yi
If you look closely, you will see that you are the one who brought up the opening statement, not OP.
@@SilverSoldier25I'd also like to know lol it sounds hilarious
@@BobKyle-hz2yi I feel like it should be noted that George actually quit writing because his books weren't selling and he wrote the A Song Of Ice And Fire books specifically because he knew there was an audience for them, and that the audience wanted to buy his books, specifically, as long as they fit into the grimdark genre.
Also, I think that a lot of people are unaware that fanzines existed since at least the 70s. People were publishing their own fanfiction and fan theories in those fanzines, that's why the Mary-Sue trope was both established, discussed, and mocked by fandoms before the internet was even a thing. It's why you can see pre-internet shows making references to Kirk x Spock fanfiction, as well as the plot of Galaxy Quest being about fandom, specifically.
The False Alarmism of Spoilers has left us with morons who's only instinct for writing is to "subvert expectations".
Whose*
@@Actile1 Horse*
"The False Alarmism of Spoilers"
...what does this even mean?
@@gaychampagnesocialist7213donkey*
@@gurmyigoll3535 I think he means studios, producers, or show runners are afraid of spoilers so they subvert as a means to surprise audiences.
You know, it's admirable that D&D managed to write something that was _so_ shit that "it was meant to be shit" is the best defense of it. Like fucking up a cake so bad that "oh it was _meant_ to be a new substitute to glue" is the only defense of the carbonized sludge that you get.
"it was meant to be shit" yet the first three, maybe four seasons were great, before D&D fucked it up. If it was as meant to be shit then those seasons would be as shit as the last two or three.
"muh soul crushing realism" As if life wasn't full of wholesome sweetness and saccharine stories too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
THANK YOU!
I am done with this asinine belief that Ultra-Misery = Real.
Real life has so many different expereinces.
If anything, the last 2 seasons are closer to reality, based solely on the relentless ball jokes
"Was never meant to be popular", when they scrapped the original pilot and recast everyone and started over from scratch cause it was so bad.
George RR Martin said HIMSELF if you write your story so that the butler did it, you can't just change it because someone on Reddit guessed that the butler did it, cause in your story the butler DID do it, so pretending the maid did it will ruin your story.
HE SAID that if a fan theory is correct, DON'T CHANGE YOUR STORY to subvert expectations because it'll be SHITTER than if you just keep your story how you intended and that fan gets to go "Holy shit I was right! That's awesome!"
Subverting expectations is just a bullshit term to excuse bad writing.
Good subversion is like having a puzzle, but of one of those illusions that's a horse one way, but a duck if you turn it upside down. And the entire movie/book/comic the pieces are being put together to make the horse, then at the end **BAM** it gets flipped upside down and it's a duck! All the pieces fit, nothing was hidden, the only thing that was needed was a slight change of perspective. And the good writing part is that you can rewatch the movie and you appreciate all the pieces even more since you know what going to happen this time. That's what good subversion of expectations is.
I'm not sure if this is how you meant it but it's how I interpreted it, was that the subversion was in having the comfort of your preconceptions/biases/delusions stripped away by a reality that was ticking away in the background you weren't paying attention to.
16:00 While, yes, people can take their fan theories way too seriously, one thing should not be forgotten. Those fan theories are based on what happens in the story and they make sense as a possibility of what will happen (not always, of course). That's why when you "subvert expectations" people will be mad when the subversion come from nowhere. Most people don't mind being wrong as long as the right thing makes sense. For example: After the episode where Dany forgot about the iron fleet, for a week we were guessing how they will take King's landing. Some guessed she will attack from underwater, some thought Jaime is going to kill Cercei, I though maybe Arya will finally use her faces and open the gates, some thought Davos will show them a secret entrance. All those were based on one fact: The story told us that a direct dragon attack is not possible. Of course when the solution turned out to be a direct dragon attack, we got mad. Not because our solution was not the right solution, but because the right solution was all wrong.
Damn, so many years and that would is still fucking sore...
Agreed. I am not mad because my theory is wrong.
I am mad, because a bunch of nerds like us took more time to consider the plot and characters than the damn writers did. We're mad because cared so much about something the people in charge cared so little for.
It's like training so hard to play basketball, only to see this absolute clown get a high paying job Fucking it up and not caring in the slightest because he knows he won't get canned.
Chekov's gun can be a subversion in itself.
Example from a manga: Mortal is wounded. A god requests their brother heals that wound. Brother refuses. God gives the mortal a mark that allows them to ask a favor from that family of gods. Mortal asks to be healed. Wish is granted. Later in the story the mortal comes across another god from this family and makes an unreasonable request, which is granted because the mortal still bears that same mark.
That's both a subversion and a payoff, I'd argue.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Martin himself was quoted that something along the lines of “ it’s ok that your twist was guessed by people and that changing it just to spite that theory is bad cause you are throwing away all the build up you had for a cheap gotcha”. Wouldn’t that be funny that this pompous guy be absolutely wrong about what Martin wanted
would be funny if GRRM himself did that and that's the reason he never finished the books.
Yep, George did indeed express that sentiment.
"Trade out straight forward character arcs and cathartic victories for messy, soul crushing realism"
I hate people who say this about Game of Thrones and ASOIAF so much. This type of thinking is the same reason he said the end of the show was "returning to something more George RR Martin". The books are still very well written, there are still tons of character arcs, there's still lots of victories and good triumphing against the odds. They aren't good because they are "dark and gritty and realistic, this isn't your grandmother's fantasy series". Martin doesn't just write depression porn. He is a very good and a very deliberate writer who is able to write extremely compelling events that grab people's attention and wow them. The show isn't good because it's "realistic" and season 8 isn't "George RR Martin-y" because a bunch of sad stuff happens.
Or even in the “soul-crushing realism” moment, GRRM still tried his hardest to make it make sense.
When Red Wedding happened in book 3, it was set up ever since book 1. Robb and Catelyn had interesting relationship with Walder Frey for a long time and it’s slowly revealed in book 2 that the Boltons are not trustworthy so when things happened, it’s shocking but also left the feeling that Robb, Catelyn and the readers “should have seen it coming” because there are clues everywhere.
Meanwhile, Arya stabbing a Night King or Daenerys nuking everyone in King’s Landing but Cersei, that just came out of nowhere. Arya has no relationship or care about the White Walkers and Dany was being heroic and risking her life to protect everyone on the planet just 2 episodes before. If they wanted a sad realistic ending that much, why not let Jon fight the Night King *and loses* ? It would make sense because losing against the bad guys is a trademark for the Stark family and the emotional investment is earned because Jon had been trying to stop the Long Night since day one. He cared about protecting humankind so much that he never thought of killing the Lannisters to avenge his family even though he had the opportunity to kill Tyrion and Jaime right there, in front of his face.
But nope Jon must be lobotomized into saying just “She’s my queen” and “I don’t want it” then screeching in front of a dragon for no reason.
Very true
The people who make claims about "soul crushing realism" tend to forget that Joffrey basically signed the death certificates for both himself and much of his own family by killing Ned Stark. The dude has friends everywhere because people remember the good and kind lord (especially the people of the North), and they're willing to lay down their lives to protect his family. All but one of the Northern houses united to avenge him and protect his children, if I'm remembering right. Even The Red Wedding couldn't crush them. Heck, The Red Wedding seems to preface where things REALLY start to take a downward spiral for the Lannisters, starting with Joffrey and then Tywin shortly after, with the super genius running off to join the rebels on top of that. Yeah, the Lannisters be winning, alright.
Like, even a cynic like Martin understand that.
If it was "realistic" most of the main characters would have died of some plague before the 2nd book and we would be left following some peasants going on about their daily lives during the plague XD
If you want soul-crushing, try R. Scott Bakker. Prince of Nothing is beyond dark. It makes asoiaf look like lord of the rings.
"It's fan entitlement that causes literally 100% of misunderstanding which they then blame on the writers."
I spat out my tea. Jesus. Hi, writer here! Fucking up your own characters is not only a common issue for writers, especially when writing several books in a series, but it's also something that's incredibly easy to do because PLOT or THEME or AND THEN needs to happen. Bad writing exists. Objectively bad writing exists.
Or perhaps not, it seems.
I'll have to let my publisher know if the next book gets bad reviews because I took my eye off the ball it's actually 100% fan entitlement that's to blame.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Some people write a story and ask themselves "is this going to connect with people?
Never heard of someone writing a story and proudly saying "this is not going to connect with people"
23:00 Um Frodo wasn't conflicted. He completely succumbed to the ring. It was only because of Gollum's greed and absentmindedness that the ring was destroyed. A huge point of the story is that almost no one can resist the ring after a certain period of time. The reason why Mt. Doom doesn't have orcs guarding it is because Sauron knows this.
20:11 the house fell apart immediately after being built, I should probably blame the builder. The food is raw, I probably should blame the chef.
Who in the right mind creates a show with the idea of it won't be popular? Not just from a company stand point, which exists to make as much money off a product as possible, but as an actual creator, why would you make something with the express idea of it not suppose to become popular? Sure, you can have a negative outlook of writing a story or drawing pictures thinking you won't ever get super popular but doing such things with the express idea of what you are creating isn't suppose to be popular? That sounds crazy to me.
Well, many art house films are made specifically to be "niche" in a "you wouldn't understand" sort of way. But they also tend to be shit films with little to no structure or meaning. Contrarian just for the sake of it.
@@DawidKov There's also the type of people who create modern art like a banana duck taped to a wall.
He never once said the show wasn't meant to be popular. Efap were the ones putting words in his mouth. He very clearly said the books weren't written for mass audience appeal. Ie they wouldn't be popular to the extent of Harry Potter and star wars
I think he meant it like: "They could create something to appeal to mainstream viewers, or something that would be closer to their creative vision but alot of people wouldn't like.
@@BobKyle-hz2yi Bait used to be believable, new account
ser Barristan Selmy, aka that old Kingsguard who showed up to help Daenerys, dying unseremoniously to some scrubs in the show is the final major deviation from the source that separates GoT from Song of Ice and Fire. I can tolerate changes for adaption but for this they are in my mind completely stories separate from each other. Pretending GoT later season sucking because of G.R.R. is absolute cope and HBO ass kissing
I hadn't read the books when that happened, and Ser Barristan dying while grey worm survived was the moment where my opinion of the show started to drop quite fast.
It's not really HBO's fault for the deviation and the terrible ending. It was D&D thinking they were great writers, and wanted to wrap things up fast
What if Disney was never meant to make money? What if movies were always meant to die as a medium? What if Long Man wasn't Long? What if Silver Surfer was a girl? What if Zelda was a girl? The garbage click-bait titles are endless!
Wait, Zelda's not a girl? Oh boy, do I have some questions for myself.
I remember Zelda. That's the guy with the sword and the fairy, right? The player character - yeah, that's Zelda.
@@EndThusIAm Think that's mindblowing? I just found out METROID is a girl. For real. It's canon.
@@skarlock5257 My gawd! Let's just hope they never go overboard and put her in heels. That might pushing it!
...Unironically, I do think that design was dumb and heard even Samus' creator was against it.
@@EndThusIAm yeah, The heels are like putting a hat on a hat. Heck even concept art from metroid zero mission where the zero suit was first introduced point out that she shouldn't be in heels.
"The show that built up Joffrey as a villain for four seasons"
It was 3 really
You know you’re an ‘OG’ EFAP fan, when hearing Wolf puts a smile on your face
Yes 😊
More Wolf and less Fringy would be best.
@@matthiasthulman4058 - Eh, I'd be more into keeping Fringy and having Rags mostly swapped for wolf if the stars aligned, with rags being most on point in shotty game discussions IME, but to each their own.
"X Was Meant to be Bad!" is always one of the most desperate and pathetic attempt at deflecting criticism.
"If you want a story that's internally consistent and has character motivations that make sense, that means you're entitled."
"Not me though, I'm not entitled, sure I lose sleep at people not adhering to the prescriptions I lay out for them and I'm personally offended that they feel they can do that but still..."
I feel so powerful never getting into GoT when it came out and hearing about how it crashed and burned in season 8 was more entertaining
Hey, I'm in the "Never Watched GoT Club," too! Kind of like I never got into "X-Files" and a similar thing happened there with its back-end.
first 4 seasons are good. I watched first 4 - 5 seasons and sort of dropped off. Maybe I sensed a drop in writing quality.
I had no interest in watching about it when everyone was talking about it either. Before S8 came out, I Was stuck someplace and decided to start watching. I have never been so immersed/attached to a story. So you can probably figure out I have felt about S8
@@Wyzaiby season 7 I was in, "turn my brain off" and "let it go on and it should end fine" mode.
Bold of you to assume George will ever finish this series.
Thankfully, he has tons of notes and a list of authors he wants to finish his legacy.
@reginaldcampos5762 I don't know if you're making a joke, because last I heard, he had ordered the notes to be destroyed and specifically said he doesn't want someone else to finish it. If that's the joke, I am sorry the internet has ruined me.
@ragingmoderate6791 yeah, i know, he hates fan fiction. But I doubt his publication would legally allow his works on WoW to be destroyed, but it's hard to say whether the series would be concluded, considering how much he hates other people writing stuff based on his works. And, regardless, it's hard to say if his notes (should they survive) have anything substantial in Dream of Spring besides the ending. The series is cooked.
@@reginaldcampos5762Remember the last time when someone else tried to finish his story?
You know, maybe writers shouldn’t attempt to “subvert expectations” since it’s led to some disastrous results and it’s butchered so many franchises because of it.
The sad thing is, they are so arrogant that if you tell them this, they will actively do it more out of SPITE.
Like how Rooster Teeth doubled down on any bad writing decisions to spite critics.
You can subvert expectations but it's difficult to do it well. It requires genius to do it correct but so few can, hence why idiots like D&D and Rian fucked up with that and made that saying cursed. Like the Strong, independent woman, it got done so badly so many times people now hate it, same as me.
Statler: That really subverted our expectations.
Waldorf: Yeah, we expected it to be good!
Both: Dohohohoho!
@@RhysCallinan-hf7qx because writing a good subversion basically requires writing 2 stories on top of each other. You can't just go "all according to plan" and pretend your twist makes sense.
The thing is that after the ending of the show, I very much doubt Georgy boy will ever finish those books at all. That he's been filling his time with other projects entirely is more evidence to this. He may as well have washed his hands of it, and hopes nobody notices.
I think he's just written himself into a corner because its a MAMMOTH of a series that is extremely complex. You lose motivation when you don't know how to go forward.
Thats what hes doing he wants us to forget it and shut up. Never mind hes working on a prequel to the books that will NEVER BE FINISHED!
0:10 "LET'S WASTE MILLIONS!" *[Buttchugs harder]*
XD
"It was only ever meant to be niche" I could understand, but not "it was never meant to be popular".
yeah. Niche just means "popular with a smaller group of people."
These people genuinely cant tell the difference between "subverts expectations" and "not internally consistent"
The red and purple weddings, Ned stark getting unalived, the battle of the blackwater, theyre all moments that define GoT and are the reason the show became an icon BECAUSE they all subverted audience expectations. But they all did so while follwing every established rule and plot point that came before. They make total logical sense even ifnthey arent predictable or cathartic. Whereas starting with season 5 and getting worse as the show went on (and more importantly as D&D ran out of books to copy) the narrative started to break its own rules and treat plot threads like "and thens" as opposed to "therefores". Plotlines and characters started contradicting themselves in order to "subvert expectations" and the whole thing collapses under its own weight because the underlying structure stopped being built after season 4
I think season 1 works so well because in a way the audience in taught to expect subversion: no matter what the situation looks like, the hero of the story can't die.
... but the hero dies, because he made too many powerful enemies.. because obviously. It makes more sense.
I think you're right. A lot of subversions were of tropes that came from the prevalence of writers to keep a certain character alive or successful when there's no reason for them to be. Or to put another way, the subversion was that the writer wasn't going to intervene this time to stop the events in motion.
Instead, D&D took it back to the tropes and writing that made that original subversion well... Subversive.
GOT was all of those things. Shallow spectacle over good story for corporate greed, Arya killing the Night King or everything around Sansa was pandering to a particular demographic and the loose plot points not connecting ore interacting with one another is lack of creativity.
At this point, the biggest subversion of expectations would be if they wrote a good script with basic cause & effect relationships and logical consistency intact.
I know the Red Wedding was coming and it still surprised me. Robs wife wasn't killed in the books. They just forced her into drinking moon tea. Just incase she was pregnant with Rob's child.
She was pregnant with his child, no? Isnt that why he married her
@leoneussell9607 moon tea is basically Westerosi Plan-B.
That’s mainly because in the book Rob marries a girl named Jain Westerling, a daughter of one of Tywin’s bannermen. Rob didn’t see a chick cut off a leg sexily one time and get the big horny, he got wounded in battle, was given guest right by the westerlings, and was intentionally seduced.
@@Slender_Man_186 I know, but he said "incase she was pregnant"
I remember watching the crap out of EFAP when I was a highschooler with too much time. Thank you for giving adult me another way to enjoy it Wolf
No jokes i "What?!" 'dat the same time with Rags.
The guy seems stuck on the assumption that fans only want predictable stories but obviously people love to be surprised. It's just that they want the surprise to make sense. This is the challenging bit for writers who want to be unpredictable --- to not merely write the most obvious solution but an alternative one that is equally logical.
Coming from an author struggling to get noticed in an over-saturated field; It chaps my ass when I see hacks running around turning in what amounts to them wiping their unwashed ass across their pc monitor and calling it writing.
I've said this before too. Now that practically anyone can get published, we are swamped with the most asinine, high school level fanfic nonsense.
It drowns any real up and coming authors under mountains of trash.
If Riann Johnson had discarded all those plot points and created something that was actually good, I'm confident those "fan theorists" would be perfectly happy
It was really cool to see Mista GG on EFAP. That dude makes great reviews!
Since when was Star Wars and Harry Potter not subverting expectations? They were both film series that had pushed forth new ideas that audiences haven’t seen before that. Just because we look at it in hindsight as classics and have generations of copycats doesn’t mean they weren’t pioneers in their fields.
What if our opinions were not poor?
Then you would be peak fire!
26:00 oh I take mediocre over a train wreck any day of the week. Back when the last season was coming out, I held the opinion that even if the end isn't great, as long as it doesn't shit the bed, the series will belong among the greatest. Sadly it shit the bed, the carpets, the floor under the carpets, the ceiling, the walls, the doors, the windows and somehow the neighbors cat.
Didn't George say he stopped caring about the show? How can he be so sure it's his "artistic vision"?
Besides the fact that execution is also incredibly important, some things might make more sense when properly set up.
Such an odd "defense"
Wasn't he tweeting out his praise for some other medieval fantasy show as season 8 was airing? Not mentioning GOT
I mean, my favourite fan theory was that the Night King was gonna tear arse and kill everyone and sit on the Iron Throne. By season 8 I hated all the characters and just wanted all of them to die so I wanted the friggin Night King to win
I'd honestly vibe with this.
Fuck it, we've already ruined everything by this point, I don't want any of these edgy pricks to win, just let the Ice Cream Man win.
Some people shouldn't be allowed in the internet.
Mauler there is a saying I follow "Everything comes back to Star Wars".
"These bits made me feel bad so they must have been made by this guy, because these other bits make me feel nice and i like that." Basically the entire video.
"People get upset when a show subverts their expectations in a way that's upsetting."
Yep, and offensive humor is offensive.
What's wrong with offensive humor ?
The ending of Game of Thrones disappointed a lot of people precisely because it was too optimistic and happy. I personally would have preferred to see Circe win the Game of Thrones simply by being the last remaining human ruler, leaving her as the unquestioned sovereign of a mostly dead world.
Instead they went with a permanently chair bound king and his sisters as lesser royalty beneath him when, in a realistic Medieval setting, all of them would be killed and replaced in rapid succession so that a literal and metaphorical political strong man could take their place.
It’s funny when you think all the sex and cursing was added by HBO because they thought the original story was too ‘cerebral’ (boring)
Game of Thrones was stylistically designed not to be popular. All we can do is minimize the effects of that.
If you're making big budget projects with the intention that it won't be popular, I'm going to assume you're doing some kind of money-laundering scheme straight out of _The Producers._
No matter how many bad shows and adaptations get made, imo none will ever be as destructive as game of thrones season 8. A season so bad that it nuked the most popular tv show off the face of the earth. I don't care if there are worse shows. To me got season 8 will always be the worst season of television i've ever seen. And one of the worst pieces of media ever made.
Two things have brought me to that level of hate.
The Last Jedi: AKA the only movie I ever walked out of a full 30 minutes before the end.
RWBY Volume 3, who's second half made me so disgusted and angered, I nearly summoned a Daemon of Khorne through hate alone.
Thought my phone screen was cracked cause if that spider web thing under the efap logo
It's like the person making the video only started watching in the last season 😂
The "never meant to be popular" argument has one merit: deliberately seeking popularity often means making something accessible by lowering the barrier to entry, thus eliminating what makes it unique. If you want an example of how this ruins things, game of thrones is the easiest example to point to. Sometimes, it's better to have something remain a niche, but that's the complete opposite of what the showrunners of GoT intended.
Thanks for the birthday present Wolf 😊
To lose such cultural relavance so quickly after ending is the mark of a true good writer...
Once more into the fray.
The only life I've ever known.
Live and die on this day.
Live and die on this day.
I wonder why we didn’t see more of MisterGG on EFAP. Happens with a lot of creators only coming on once or twice, but still.
I had literally no expectations as to what was going to happen, and I was still disappointed.
Fantasy is a niche genre. like many niche genres they are based on fairly universal themes. And can therefore be expanded to a popular audience.
The ultimate example is that JRR Tolkien basically wrote his story for his kids and it turns out everybody loves them except for George Martin. Lol.
Only The Hobbit was written for his kids. And GRRM loves Tolkien, its one of his main inspirations.
When the expectation is that a main character like Ned should survive the first season and he dies, that is a subversion, expecting a show to be good and it’s bad is not a subversion
To be fair, I think there is some reasonable argument that ASOIAF was never meant to be 'popular', and by that I mean it was never expected to achieve mainstream appeal. George's style and content really is quite niche, alien hivemind's, blood sacrifices, etc definitely aren't mainstream things to include in a story, and unlike the show, GRRM's books are absolutely chock full of this stuff, front and centre. Doesn't mean it was impossible to become popular, but it's not your average 'hero's journey' story, and that does tend to put a lot of people off.
But, having said that, Game of Thrones, was a different beast. Right from the onset, D&D main an effort to strip down George's story and remove almost all the fantastical, magical elements of the story. That might sound weird if you've only ever watched the show, considering the dragons, the wights, warging, etc, but that stuff really is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what we are given in the books. They only included the fantasy elements that they absolutely had to in order to actually tell the story, everything else was taken out to appeal to "bros and soccer moms" and a more mainstream audience as a whole. Game of Thrones was absolutely made to be 'popular', they specifically removed the more niche and fantastical elements of the original story so they could appeal to more people, and it's ultimately part of why the ending sucked so bad. Throughout George's books, the story has only ever trended towards more magical aspects, which left the show hamstrung in terms of what they could actually do in the later seasons because the source material was less and less relevant to the story they were telling. It's no surprise they completely skipped 90% of the content in Feast and Dance, it didn't apply anymore. It was trying to 'make it popular' that made GOT such a disaster in the end, because it was trying to tell a different story, with the same parts, and it doesn't fit.
You can tell this is old efap from the amount of not pausing they did at the beginning lol
This is your most spoopy video Wolf. Not because of the awful takes on display. But because of the ghost in the corner... 😨
Oh my god, I totally didn't catch it until you pointed out. Now I can't sleep at night. 2spoopy4me
I never thought that I was entitled to spend time, money, and investment for a disappointing story. It was a privilege to get nothing in return from all that.
'Meant to be bad' is rising up the ranks of my least favorite things people say. Though it has a long way to go before it overtakes "subverting expectations" for top spot.
What a midwit tier video lmao, why are they inflicting themselves this
Just when you thought that the brainlets defending awful movies and TV shows couldn't make any dumber arguments...
People make the same argument with The Walking Dead, it’s a shame because that show had a lot of potential to be at least remembered fondly even if it went on too long, but half the fan fiction is better than the main show.
It's an older EFAP, sirs, but it checks out!
A perfect cold open 🤣
9:19 to 9:40 Yeah, when people don't like something that happens in a show they love, they often go easy on it because of what may happen later. But at the very end, giving benefit of the doubt is no longer possible. And I did see many fans gamely giving that benefit of the doubt all the way up to the start of the very last episode. E.g. after the penultimate ep there was much speculation on what the significance was of the white horse Arya found - such as that it might symbolize something that would happen, or that it was a spirit or a warging Bran who had come to save her. But of course there ended up being no payoff, and it was just a very convenient horse.
I never got into GOT until 3 weeks ago when a friend of mine told me to watch it and I had herd that it crashed and burned after season 6. Now I’m in season 7 (yeah I binged watch it and there were things that I did like and some that I didn’t such as fucking bran still alive somehow revealing these secrets that have me going “WTF!”) and yeah I agree with effap. As much as I was so freaking sad at Ned’s execution and Robb’s death that is not subverting expectations but rather something that is shocking but that serves a purpose. As much as I would have wished Ned survival or Robb’s surviving the red wedding, it served a purpose. Now with (as season 6 seems to hint at the end) Jon’s reveal of his “secret lineage” I’m starting to doubt the whole storyline because the writers are like “let’s introduce something shocking that would have the viewer wondering” instead of fan service apart from the villains being killed for killing the “good guys”
Jon's true lineage is not just a twist for the sake of it lmao
@@Radio.Jump857 I mean yeah I see your point but the reason I say that it’s a twist for the sake of it is because idk it doesn’t make sense as there wasn’t a build up to it apart from “oh he’s a bastard who never knew his true mother and ned never talked about it.” Also in the sense that yeah they say that Ned’s sister was raped, which ok but why wouldn’t they through the question around that maybe an baby was conceived and also the way how it was introduced through bran. If somehow a person other than bran would have discovered the true origins of Jon it would have made sense because something that GOT has thought me is that there isn’t a secret well enough guarded to remain as such for a very long time and knowing how noble Ned was, I can’t believe that he didn’t told at least his wife or somebody who was far away such as in the wall to then have it revealed to the audience.
I would much rather have a predictable story that makes sense than an unpredictable story that don't make sense.
Never heard this argument lol
Audience: you ruined our investment for fun?
HBO: You were never meant to get this far honestly.
D&D: I mean yeah, that's how we get our kicks
Audience: you bastards!
This person wasn’t actually alive when GoT aired
Wow, Mauler seems to think he's actually going to finish the books
In George RR Martin's books, Walder Frey's title is "Lord of the Crossing." He is the owner of a castle, formally known as The Crossing, but colloquially referred to in the story as "The Twins". It is called The Twins, because it consists of two identical, or Twin, castles, at opposite ends of a bridge. It is a double castle. A double castle called "the Crossing". Walder Frey is the Lord of the Double Crossing.
By the logic of the video being analyzed, George RR Martin is a mediocre writer, since he set up Walder Frey as a traitor when he CREATED the character. The description of his castle, and its name and his title, were all revealed in the first book. Furthermore, people in universe who know Walder Frey think of him as a treacherous type. In his first on-screen appearance, Frey claims superiority over others based having 21 sons, more than anyone else in Westeros, saying, for example, that he can match Ned & Catelyn son for son, and have eighteen left, or that he can match Tywin and have nineteen and a half left. Basically, he is saying, he can afford to lose a son for every son of an enemy he kills, and still come out ahead. At the Red Wedding, Catelyn tries to trade the life of one of Frey's descendants to gain Robb's freedom, and Walder does not care, just like he foreshadowed with his speaking of his offspring as expendable resources. At the conference following Robb's victories and Ned's murder, when the Stark allies are debating about their course of action going forward, Walder's son and heir suggests waiting out the wars between the kings and seeing who is winning, and how much they will pay for the aid of this alliance. This is what the Freys do, in future books, seeing who wins the fight for the Iron Throne and then offering to sell out Robb to the Lannisters, when Renly & Stannis are both defeated. In book 2, there are a pair of Frey children who are sent to Winterfell as wards, as part of the alliance between the Starks and Freys, and these boys don't get along with Bran. They play a game called "Lord of the Crossing" which mostly involves lying and trying to trick each other. They torment the retarded Hodor, and are happy to hear about the death of their uncle, because it increases their prospects. When the castle falls to Theon, the Frey boys become his sidekicks and eagerly join his efforts to hunt down the escaped Stark boys, even though their families are supposed to be allies. Other Freys are shown to be ineffectual cowards as well.
Throughout the first 2 and a half books of the series, GRRM is shitting all over the Freys, presenting them as cowards who will stab you in the back. He names and designs their castle to be a clever pun about treachery. I read a blog who claimed that she realized the Freys were about to spring their treachery by a description of the food at the wedding feast, because it was crappy food, in a culture where you get status from being a good host and throwing nice feasts. What the description of crappy food did, was tell this reader that the Freys did not care about the impression they were giving with the poor meal, because everyone eating it was going to die, and they didn't want to bother with the effort for dead men walking.
If Martin were a good and creative and ingenious writer, he would have subverted all the expectations by having the Freys prove to be strong, or heroic or useful, and above all, loyal to their liege lord's cause. The treachery that brings down Robb would have come from a completely unexpected and random direction, and not the family who can't beat you face to face and are afraid to be on the losing side, as well as being symbolically set up as traitors by nature.
“Artistic vision of the author”???
George hated the later seasons of the show AND DIDN’T EVEN WATCH THEM!
When a kid goofs up and his friends laugh, he screams, "I meant to do that". This guy's argument has that energy
His Aces(?) book series started out pretty cool.
I wish someone would give us good writing and characters, for a change.
Honestly, as of season 3, I found Daenerys to have a cruel, overzealous and at times hypocritical streak. It frustrated me that the show seemed to gloss over it. I wanted to see Daenerys become the mad queen. Ever since season 3, I had actively been rooting for that to happen. I still hate the ending, because the way they went about it was shit. So no, it's not that to fans, good writing equals having your expectations rewarded and fans just get upset when that doesn't happen. I got what I expected from her and it was crap.
Can you please upload the clip of mauler reacting to Eve emerging from the pod in Stellar Blade?
27:20 "not everything have to be good, why cant we just let stuff be garbage?"
Ah yes, we not only spent millions but also killed another show for the sake of the budget.
And we hoped no one would watch.
Hi Wolf!
never heard anyone say they didnt like endgame
True. At worst I've heard people say Infinity War was better but all-in-all it's a solid ending to the MCU.
What is that whirring chugging machine noise in the back ground when Mauler speaks?!? It makes it hard for me to listen to this old stuff on headphones 😅
It's his ol' fan. Mewbachlie is a sweaty boi.
God why do these type of people always end up supporting TLJ? Reddit is full of them. They are contrarians just because it makes them feel good.