Russia-Ukraine War: What Can We Learn from History? | Intelligence Squared
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- What are the lessons that history can teach us about the Russian war in Ukraine? Three of Britain’s most distinguished and bestselling historians - Peter Frankopan, Max Hastings and Margaret MacMillan - share their insights into the conflict and its repercussions for the future.
In conversation with BBC news presenter Jonny Dymond, they examine the long road to war as well as the potential outcomes of the conflict. They explore how President Putin has been invoking the past to rally support among the Russian people for his actions, and the strengths and shortcomings of Western nations in support of Ukraine. And as the Russian leader threatens to use nuclear weapons to achieve his aims, they ask what lessons can be learned from brinkmanship during the Cold War.
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An extremely one-sided discussion by the panelists, reflecting the arrogance and "infallibility" of the Anglo-Saxons.
well, when you see Indian, Russian and Chinese media it's hard for these people not to be arrogant. The Indian mass media is pretty much owned by Indian politicians, Russian State Media is calling for nuclear strikes against London and The Chinese and their "wolf warrior" nonsense aren't terribly interesting.
Ironically the “comic” who leads Ukraine is an incredibly strong leader who is the right person for the times. Max Hastings please think about that.
We can’t learn from history. We never have learned anything because we destroy commonsense the moment it appears. But people will always buy books and go to the movies in the hope of learning something to please their appetites for entertainment.. Seminars and scholars will also profit from their thesis that never disappoints illusion….!!
We can and we do learn from history. We learn that england was the violent country in the 19th century, and that the USA is the most violent country sinse 1950 TO THIS DAY.
We have learned so much from history, what are you talking about? Whether it be technology, tactics, logistics etc. In the moral aspect we now have Int. law, numerous pro-humanity laws to limit the destruction of war. It's a very nihilistic view you have, and also just a wrong one
Just one question regarding proxy war. If I metaphorically supplied a weapon to a friend to kill Max Hastings, am I guilty of a crime ?
Metaphorically? - ill-conceived analogy
Depends on what you knew at the time, but as it stands, of course.
3 panellist who all agree with one another. Would have been good to get some other points of view
Yup. They ignore anything that does not support the U.S. and U.K. official government positions. I suppose, even amongst independent minded, tenured Academics, only superstars like Professor John Mearscheimer, or Professor Jeffrey Sachs, or Professor Noam Chomsky, are moral and courageous enough to speak independently, based on their years of scholarship, and/or political experience, or powerfful enough, like Henry Kissinger, who himself even broke ranks and spoke out against U.S. escalation of the conflict. (A good way to test the panelists' intellectual honesty would have been to ask all three, if they believe the U.S. and U.K. government proclamations that Russia blew up their own pipeline, or if it is more probable, that the U.S. blew it up. Most neutral experts will admit it is more likely that the U.S. did.)
@@stevelang6990 neutral experts say the U.S. did it, huh? Who are these "neutral" experts that you speak of? I'm sure they're anything but neutral but your bias won't let you believe otherwise...
you must be joking
Kanye West is not welcome 😂🤣🤣
@@tj2636 Are you sure? Why's that, because you have looked into it? What was Russia's motivation to blow up their own pipeline? The U.S. has claimed for years that Putin was using the pipeline as a weapon to extort Europe, why would he blow up his own weapon? He didn't have to blow it up, he could have just turned it off. Promising to turn it back on again if there was a Negotiated Peace, was his leverage. Why would he blow up his leverage. The U.S. has been against the pipeline for years and Biden warned back in February of this year: "WASHINGTON, Feb 7 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden on Monday warned that if Russia invades Ukraine, there would be no Nord Stream 2, but did not specify how he would go about ensuring the controversial pipeline would not be used.
Speaking at a joint news conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Biden said, "If Russia invades... again, then there will be longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it." When asked how he would do that, he responded, "I promise you we will be able to do it."------------------------------------------------------------- But to answer your question, the most prominent neutral expert is Jeffrey Sachs. He is an internationally respected former faculty of Harvard and Columbia University, Advisor to the UN, Public policy analyst, and senior advisor to governments, specifically: "In 1989, Sachs advised Poland's anticommunist Solidarity movement and the government of Prime Minister Tadeusz Mazowiecki. He wrote a comprehensive plan for the transition from central planning to a market economy which became incorporated into Poland's reform program led by Finance Minister Leszek Balcerowicz. Sachs was the main architect of Poland's debt reduction operation. Sachs and IMF economist David Lipton advised the rapid conversion of all property and assets from public to private ownership. Closure of many uncompetitive factories ensued.[25]" "Sachs's ideas and methods of transition from central planning were adopted throughout the transition economies. He advised Slovenia in 1991 and Estonia in 1992 on the introduction of new stable and convertible currencies. Based on Poland's success, he was invited first by Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and then by Russian President Boris Yeltsin on the transition to a market economy." --------------Anti-globalist activists have called him a "cold hearted neo-liberal," which is why he was invited on corporate media news shows. "Professor Sachs told Bloomberg: "The destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline which I would bet was a US action perhaps US and Poland. But host Tom Keene interrupted: "Jeff, Jeff you've got to stop there, that's quite a statement as well.
"Why do you feel that that was a US action? What evidence do you have of that?"
Professor Sachs continued: "Well, first of all, there's direct radar evidence that US helicopters, military helicopters that are normally based in Gdansk were circling over this area." ""We also had the threats from the United States earlier in this year that one way or another, we are going to end Nord Stream. "We also have a remarkable statement by Secretary Blinken last Friday at a press conference, so he says this is also a tremendous opportunity.
"It's a strange way to talk if you're worried about piracy on international infrastructure of vital significance." "So I know this runs counter to our narrative and you're not allowed to say these things in the West but the fact of the matter is all over the world when I talk to people, they think the US did it." --------------------------------------------------------And the U.S. is now the country that Europe will be dependent on for gas. "Until Russia's invasion of Ukraine in late February, the Nord Stream 1 pipeline beneath the Baltic Sea from Russia to Germany was one of western Europe's main sources of gas." (From website) "Business Insider": "Energy companies and traders are raking in huge profits selling US natural gas to Europe as prices on the continent skyrocket, with a single shipment netting around $200 million of profit, according to industry experts. Aug 13, 2022"
Maybe a Russian (not pro war, but balanced) and a Ukrainian perspective would have been good?
False equivalence
Maybe a Russian who is pro war like English were pro war with Nazis when they threatened invasion …
Why is the only good Russian you can conceive of a push-over servile Western-stooge type of Russian?
Are the Russians not allowed to have a stance, different from Western imperialist worldview, that is valid!?!?
Bigotry in this discussion and commentaries is phenomenal here :)
Three establishment clowns, repeating establishment talking points to secure their place in the establishment. Myopic.
"Interview With Three Western Historians"
"Why no Russians?!"
🙄
MEABY SERBIAN TELLING YOU DO TRUTH,....WHEN YOU NAZI NATO ISIS TALMUD THERORIST ALLIENCE TRASH ARE IN RUBLLES PEACE WILL COME,...NOT A SECOND BEFORE
The first response to the hosts question led me to believe that we are dealing with a square-root of intelligence... this seemed like a propaganda info war
It's not propaganda if it's the truth.
@@kkpenney444 this wasn’t that
Agree
@@kkpenney444 1/2 of it, unfortunately... the UK vision, obviously. I am French and I clearly do not share this point of view. I came because of Peter Frankopan, but I feel extremely disappointed... What was said about the French people clearly showed that they not only do not understand the Russians, but they don't even understand their neighbours! So... no need to go as far as Russia then! Understanding the European continent would be, in my view, a good start!
@@plumitive4105 What point of view?
I love what Peter said, "if you control of media, you can say anything is a victory". If I watch CNN/BBC/MSNBC, I will think now Moscow have been sieged.
Agree
oddly enough, mr putin is one of the few people who actually believes that moscow is under siege
@@hdevere8383 And Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, well... some people who like hearing different narratives, an not only the main stream ones.
No you merely search for the narratives you agree with
@@clydewmorgan Or maybe just complementary sources to have a broader picture in English. As for me, I watch many different news in 5 different languages since I am a polyglot linguist... it is extremely useful to have different views and mindset. as wekk as to make more nuances. In French, my favourite reference is our Perpetual Secretary of the Académie française, Mrs Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, who never speaks with such certainty regarding Russia, even if it is her area of expertise and even if she met Putin personnally and spoke with him in Russian, one of her mothertongue. (She is from the Russian nobility whose family used to live in Georgia before the Revolution)
BTW on their immediate reference to the Cuba crisis. We must not forget that Russia was going to put missiles in Cuba BECAUSE America had first put missiles in Russia's neighbourhood in Turkey. In fact Krutchev withdrew the missiles AND Kennedy (on the quiet) withdrew the american missiles from Turkey. Why did Russia agree to this agreement "on the quiet"? to preserve Kennedy's presidency. Sadly that did not last that long, did it?
Take your bs somewhere else.
No, because at that time the Soviet Union was a vastly, vastly inferior nuclear power to the United States. Krushchev knew it was a blunder and realized he had to get the problem resolved. He also had Castro being irrational, pushing for a nuclear launch from Cuba and pestering Kruschev for control if those missles and decision making on when to launch. Kruschev rightly refused to hand control over to Kennedy. Thus the deal on Turkey and keeping it quiet from Castro. It benefitted Kennedy and Catri both that the Turkey deal be kept quiet.
@@yam2050 "Take your bs somewhere else." He was right. Why do you angry?
America deployed nuclear missiles into the Soviet Union’s region because NATO did not have an adequate defense against the massive Red Army deployed on its border in the Warsaw Pact. The Red Army deployed immediately when the Nazis surrendered to grab as much land as possible and only American nuclear airpower (B-29s) made them withdraw from, for example, Iran. So only the west’s nuclear forces could deter regional invasions and coercion via the Red Army. That is why missiles were emplaced in Turkey, because the Red Army directly threatened Turkey. Everyone who has lived with Russia knows their game. If they can, they invade. If they can’t, they engage in subversion. It’s just what they do and all their neighbors know it intimately.
@@tommyrq180 Sounds like past UK and current US.
Kennedy displayed one thing in the Cuban Missile crisis - he pulled the US Nuclear Missiles out of Turkey that he’d previously deployed
This panel was very disappointing.
pro tip for IQ²...if you're going to feature your store offerings on the screen between the video info space and the comments space, include any books touted by one of your speakers (e.g. Orlando Figes' The Story of Russia)
Thanks - good suggestion. We will be releasing a new video with Orlando Figes on the channel soon too.
this panel discussion is 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Would love to see them debate John Mearsheimer, Noam Chomsky and Jeffrey Sachs to get a balanced perspective.
There is such a debate. And Mearsheimer lost by a landslide.
@@charlesfiddespayne7474 Not according to the public present. That was the point of the debate. You can pick a side in front of the computer, but that is not relevant, because you are just one person. Ofc, I'm not saying that one side is completely wrong and the other side is completely right. There are valid arguments, in my opinion, on both sides. Just that those present considered one side's arguments more compelling.
Any one of them would have seen this troika of twits off.
This is so unbalanced, you would find more depth in a puddle, I’m so disappointed.
A balance perspective would show that their arguments amount to ad hominem attacks and pure Russophobia with no actual self reflection about how this war actually started
This discussion should be called learning nothing from history.
You're too generous, there should be no reference to learning or history in the title. Truly an insult to historians.
name one non-factual comment that any of these Historians made! It goes against Putin's and the Kremlin's narrative but the truth often hurts.
😆
Unconstructive comment Harry
Spot on comments, Harry! Absolutely waste of time. Glad I only wasted 8 minutes of my time. The woman is so ridiculous and fake to call the war is between Russia and Ukraine. Is she blind? Hope her prayer will work.
The situation is never the same. A worthwhile analysis has to look at the current complexities.
True. The cost of going war with Russia - unless absolutely necessary - would be far greater than anything 1939-1945 was. I don't see how there could be parallels between the stakes then, and the stakes now.
@@irvin701 The problem is that nowadays there is far more at stake for both parties as there was in the past ..... the list is endless.
I think the bit about being led by comics ,is a perfect own goals.
I just don't like intellectual dishonesty....I will always go for Jeffery Sachs of Columbia University....Let truth prevail....and stop seeing yourself as superious ...times have changed...
It's different times if one doesn't adapt to new situation we all will suffer miserably.
My thought is this conflict is very more deeper that you are guys discussing on this platform.
You are so right elenaalgazina5213 .... the conflict is pretty unfathomable and even if it is sorted out one day ? You can't take individual thoughts and the very essence of what makes a person think or believe out of the equation. It's a sad time we are living in and will end in disappointment and ruin. I believe we should take responsibility for our own brains and decisions but how do you get the horse to drink after you've taken him to the water ?
@@maryearll3359 Thank you,Mary Early for the comment. The religious question was not touched yet. It will make the conflict deeper.All the best.
Anglo Saxons again tieing themselves with war horse. Have they found WMD in Iraq?
not to worry, there are few in the west who have any memory. All attention is on the latest fashionable cause of the moment.
that western nations have almost continuously been invading other countries is known by few.
Yup, that is why they are suffering because of the same stupid mistakes that they had gone through in the past like WW1 & WW2. This is another propaganda talk. The west deserved to be screwed and the pain that they are experiencing now is not painful enough to wake up.
Good job Russian comrade-bot! You ll have more vodka per post
ok, it just went from vapid to downright stupid.
With the multiplication of words comes the greater and dangerous folly, "One could argue."
The surest way to start wars is to have lots of meaningful discussions.
"We have hopefully a wonderful audience" (??). Rule number one for a moderator, never insult your audience at the beginning of a talk.
They may as well call this unintelligence squared, 3 guests and the host on one side and Mr nobody on the other ?
It was very nice to hear 3 knowledgeable panellists, however it felt a bit like an echo chamber. It would have helped to have one person with a different perspective to enhance and prove those 3 people right, instead of a group of people mirroring each other. I disagreed with Max that ideology is not a factor in this war. Maybe during the cold war the ideologies were defined with clear parameters but contemporary ideologies with their blurred lines are definitely playing their roles in this conflict as well. Again someone from a different perspective would have been able to point that out. Although i prefer a debate, i did enjoy this talk :)
I agree, Maester. This discussion was so one sided it was an echo. No one is charting a path to peace, just arrogant justification for their ridged view. I see a very biased view of history without nuance. What is left out is the promotion of NATO and support of the military-industrial's profits and its impact on Russia. MacMillan's comment on Germany in WW11, implying jealousy of England trade competition was a cause of the war - what a joke. Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States would be an excellent beginning for this group to learn some real history of the West.
❤ to Russia from UK stay safe ✌ Hasta La Victoria Siempre
Your comment resonates with me. Certainly none of the panelists have cognitive empathy taking Russia's perspective, not to mention saying that JFK withdrew putting a base in Turkey to show good faith leading to de-escalation of the Cuban crisis. Is there a parallel with this Ukraine war? America's military industrial complex is working, especially after Afghanistan withdrwal.
@@ele81946 someone said a few weeks back everything happening is a war against the working class, I'd not heard it put that so distinctly before.
@@0150Tricia there is no peace with Russia as it’s a terrorist state
Man, Peter can make his guitar talk and discuss geopolitics and war. Truly a renaissance man!
renaissance was afforded with gunpowder.
I can't take him seriously as he is a historian with a fake name to claim Croatian nobility status. Although his family has nothing to with the Frankopan and they have changed their last name from a normal Croatian last name from Dujmić-Vukasinović to de Lupis, and then to Frankopan just to try and claim medival castles after the fall of communism. The last Frankopans were executed by the Austrians in 1617. Imagine now being a historian and carry a fake historic name. LOL
@@gregoryjames4474 And born on the back of the Islamic Golden Age.
The non violent answer could lie in collectively raising awareness in regard to any illegal tactics commonly used, including by Chinese or Russians, in all other jurisdictions. Educate all leaders and populations on ethics in these countries. Welcome Ukraine war survivors and Russian refugees who declare to resist the war, as refugee migrants by giving them dual citizenship, provided they assist to end the war. These three strategies could help drive to peace.
This discussion is like a drama. The fight in Ukraine is like a world war 3 already because of nations are involved on both sides. What they are talking about?
Good point. America's using Ukraine like they use their grunts- let them put their body on the line while they sip 🍸
If NATO would be involved then it would have been long over.
Before Gorbachev lefdt office, he signed an agreement with Hans-Dietrich Genscher of the OECD, that Warsaw Pact contries would not be taken into NATO. Within about 18 months they were all in, the US was planting missile-sites all over the place and accusing Russian of aggression. Two years ago UNHCR listed 1.5 million ethnically-Russian Ukrainians had fled from persecution to take refuge in Russia. For whatever reason, that figure has disappear from that website. At the same time, Russia`s lease on Sevatopol which still has 30years to run was torn up unilaterally. Ukraine was part of Russia even before Ivan IV drove the Mongolians out in the mis C16th and then Cathering the Great built all Ukraine`s main cities. Ukraine has been part of Russian for at least two centuries before Scotland before allied itself with England. A big part of the problem has been firstly the historians who have completely obfuscated the history of 1914-1917 and secondly , the West`s vigorous attempts to portray Putin as a Stalinist. In 2017 he went to the Gulag Memorial to denounce formally both the Gulag and the Revolution itself. That was courageous, given that many of the Oligarchs want a return to Stalinism. Other than them and CP members, no-one could take iny interest in national politics or economics, so the Oligarchs stepped in to fill that vacuum. He tried to reach some kind of rapprochement with NATO but was rudely shrugged off. Anti-Russian feeling in Warsaw Pact countries is understandable but not at all helpful. As far as Russia is concerned, East Ukraine, with its high proportion of ethnic Russians, is Stalingrad 2.
That question about the humans element in major conflicts and having the right people in charge (e.g. JFK)and and not having the wrong people in charge (e.g. Max Taylor and Curtis Lemay too) and the responses was gold
Gold . Exactly .
So true.
"First time since the Cuban Missile Crisis, we have a direct threat of the (use of) a nuclear weapon if in fact things continue down the path they are going." Joe Biden
"Above all, while defending our own vital interests, *nuclear powers must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war.* To adopt that kind of course in the nuclear age would be evidence only of the bankruptcy of our policy, or of a collective death-wish for the world." John F Kennedy
If not, history will simply repeat, and the entire Cold War "sh*tshow with death and destruction with return.
"Sleepy Joe" is a bit late with his realisation.
You can definitely put McArthur in the same bunch as Taylor and Lemay
US nukes in Turkey, unknown to Russia were to be pulled out of Turkey, the fact that nukes were within easy range of Russia is interesting.
Mind you, one can hate a leader, but to hate the country,, is to hate it's people.
Curious is the NATOs evolving and expanding, through out the world, a once defensive force that of recent as become offensive.
Totally Democrats speaking
Again, as a lot of the western part of Europe media and intellectuals discuss central and eastern European issues they do forget to takeoff their perspective and their hats the bean shaped by the Russian empire for about 2 1/2 centuries.
The Muscovite and Russian issue is a much deeper problem to solve or completely isolate from the part of the euro Asia. More context would’ve been nice to see in the panel
Poles understand us perfectly. Moscovia must be defeated, demilitarised including nuclear weapons, divided into free national states.
Westerners completely underestimate danger of mongolian Rus' which successor is Moscow.
They'll don't stop, they must be stopped.
Absolutely agree.
Exactly this
It would be good if someone here wasn't a biased believer in yet another crumbling western narrative.
I cannot agree more.
What’s the point of having a discussion with all panelists who are already on the same page? Waste of time…
Because it’s a marketing campaign, not a real discussion. This is for the pseudo intellectuals that are on the fence.
True
It's called brainwashing
Because they like to praise each other and reaffirm each other's idea and view.. it is a jokes
Maybe you do have an alternative point which I would hope would add another dimension ?
The lady in this debate is talking cadswallop. Putin is ranked as the most honest leader on the international stage according to the "Why Politicians Lie" by John Mearsheimer.
British humor is great! ty
Margaret, this war is not just between Ukraine and Russia ! If it were , it would have ended a long time ago . This war is between Russia and the Western world supported by US military might ! And that expansion makes it nearly a World War or bordering it .
not really
@@autemniaequinoctius2030 Care to back up your stance ? 2 words don't make a response ! The whole world has recognized this conflict as a ' Proxy war " between US ( Europe hardly counts ) and Russia .
@@narayanprasad4008
yes, the whole third world and even the fourth world, where people adore Putin as a "strong leader", like Stalin. Not a single normal civilized country in the world would agree to believe in such crap
It gets boring when all the guests think the same thing.
Boring is a good thing idealistically, like having stability, & sanity in life, a boring blessing to say the least. Peace could be a very boring proposition of the way to live for some, But a good peaceful life that's null & void of drama, conflict & confusion compounded & driven by endless emotional debates & arguments concerning personal, philosophical, social , religious & political differences, can be quite boring and a peacefully predictable way to live & think about the same things.without the drama..etc etc.
I always listen to the whole thing...why wouldn't I listen to the whole thing? 🙂 merry Christmas friend ❤️
It’s incredible that so many informed people can be legitimately surprised and unable to comprehend anti-Americanism. In fact, that fallacy is not having a politics of grievance, but associating ones grievances with national identity, rather than the underlying structures and systems. Liberal democratic capitalism, while successful at some things, is blind to internal contradictions that plant the seeds of its own antagonism.
Learning from history is a sane use of it (rather than glorification and dry sequential chronologies). Soon history will be divided into Before Enlightenment* and After.
"as provided by the Philosophy of Broader Survival
This would be a fascinating conversation if I was an anthropologist, from the perspective of watching a group of people, very impressed with themselves, giving the perspective from their hermetically sealed academic bubble. It is amazing how professional historians can pontificate so much on something while leaving out at least half the story.
I think you give them too much credit the you include the word 'academic' and 'historian' in any reference to these people. Even propagandists seem too generous a term.
@@stevel9200 I totally agree with you; I was just using the titles they give themselves so they'd know I was talking about them. These people are just oblivious, and they congratulate each other for it.
Perhaps you'd like to indicate the key elements they've missed? All three are quite well credentialed, yet you dismiss them as academic. The onus, therefore, is on you to show your credentials & argument. Will you please do so.
@@chrisfreebairn870 they will not because they cannot ;)
@@leenglishman1605 I suspected as much, just being polite .. see my comments beloe for a more assertive expression of my views ..
Prof Macmillan' emotional and personal commentary devoid of the Russian context trivializes her intellect.
The cold war has poisoned her intellect
Counter to intelligence.
Would have been nice to include Stephen Kotkin in this panel.
Peter is the most nuanced and strategic from the panelists.
Thank you audience for not disrupting the discussion with applause every 30 seconds
"The terrible thing, that all dictators should be warned about this, the longer you stay there, the more isolated you get, and you only hear from people that are flattering you, telling them what they want to hear..."
That is exactly what people in the Western world are telling each other about politicians personalities. People in the Western world do not vote for their leaders logically, rationally in the best interest of their country future. No, people vote mostly on the basis what their social and peer groups vote for. Most often it is based on personality biases. They wag their tongue all day and every day talking on the phone and talking at work and talking in the pub, about their pet pees. Karl Marx Socialism has also got a foot hold in the Western peoples minds.
U government is evil group..they go to war almost a very year,,Libya war, Afganistan war,Irak war for the sake of humanity they say..
And when we tire of our leaders we change them. Quite frequently if necesary. Can you change yours?
The differance is that Western political systems allow for the replacement of leaders who may not be doing a satisfactory job. If Russians look at their leaders "special military operation" and realise the long term consequences of it ...what can Russians do about this dreadful leadership?...their political system does not allow for replacement of a bad leader.That is the moral of this entire debacle.
Can you change yours ?
CAN YOU CHANGE YOURS ???
This is not a debate as all are against Russia and Putin.
Did you expect an illegal occupation of a Sovereign Country to be considered as acceptable ?.Do you understand the gravity of human suffering Russia have caused ?. Have you thought about the millions of civilians who are now left without their homes/jobs/villages.? Do you have a job and home?.I'll bet you do.
An intelligent discussion of this war, this is not.
You can’t finish the job without having the tools needs to be taken seriously by leaders of the free world. We can’t leave Ukraine without the tools, being heroic is not enough
This discussion reminds me of a movie made in 2016 "World War Three: Inside the War Room". And we are not at the end of it yet. Scary.
It's nearly at the end for Russia.
Have u guys looked at a map of the Ukraine lately!
Fabulous !
11:06 "The West was not ready to fight, prior to 1939 to fight the 3rd Reich" , was a pretty loaded statement, considering the massive support Hitler had among the western elites.
I thought this was a debate platform. Ah well.
Why not get some Russian geopolitical experts on to give a Russian perspective. In 2014 UK news regularly had pro-Russian guests on. What’s happened.
In 2014 the USA and the UK organized a coup in Ukraine to Instal a Nazi government in Ukraine and the western media and these fat intellectuals are propagating for their governments which are just evil.
Trump/Brexit dérangement syndrome.
Who would want to share a stage with a ruzzian?
@@canadiangemstones7636 certainly none of these guys. When Russians commentators with good English were allowed to appear on UK debates and TV in 2014 they often gave highly nuanced points of view and insights which were largely hidden from Western audiences. They were more than able to handle themselves and often left neoliberals Western media anchors and commentators.
These are vetted British slaves to the official western narrative. Russia bad, West good.
Wow!! The level of echo chambering is out of the world.
Just remember at the beginning of WWII, Hitler’s goal was Soviet Union (Jewish communist), only changed after Poland refused to help it.
The clowns don't see the obvious.
They are not "Intelligence square", they are Intelligence into -100 power.
I enjoy hearing Max Hastings as much as I enjoy reading him.
Dodgy History
It’s what he leaves out that’s important which is he’s bias
Please keep these 3 on your side of the pond.
Kievan Russ, shortened to ‘Russia’; named because of the red headed Vikings. Not named by them, named because that’s who lived there. ‘Russia’ is a very recent political entity.
It wasn’t who live there so to speak. The Vikings came there and they were invited to be the rulers they became the ruling class the polities stayed the same until they were overrun by the Mongols
The title should be "Should the west really pipe down and listen to the east time to time, basically to stop pretending that they know it all?"
Exactly
Yes, a 100%!
Agree
Why? The East wants all of our money and all of our property leaving us with absolutely NOTHING... Putin desires to destroy the European Union and NATO... Why should we let him do so?
@@ronclark9724 the west has stolen our resources and enslaved our families and culture. Time for tables to turn.
Totally nonsensical debate is no longer an intelligent discussion.
Might wanna rename this one "Echo chamber Squared"
This panel consists of three atlanticists propounding NATO orthodoxy. Would have appreciated greater diversity of thought represented on this panel, with opposing viewpoints actually challenging each other's narratives.
Why do people like you spam the comment section with complaints, such as these, rather than calling attention to something said in the video that is objectively incorrect. Instead you complain when anti-western voices aren’t included… why should they… they’re anti-western regardless of the topic.
@@nicholasjohnson778 it's not spam or a complaint, it's an objective observation that there is little to no disagreement expressed between the panelists. If that is not self-evident to you, then that is your own problem.
I personally agree with the majority of the viewpoints expressed in this video. Unlike you perhaps, I prefer a little more intellectual stimulation via a conflict of ideas. The world is not geopolitically dichotomous as you imply, and there is certainly room for a greater variety of opinion on this subject than your "Western v. Antiwestern" trope of a worldview.
@@nicholasjohnson778
I happen to support Ukraine, but I do not consider it "anti-Western" to question Western involvement in the war.
That is the way of censorship.
@@stephanoskaravas5405 This was a panel interview not a debate, objectively. There are plenty of debates most feature John Mearsheimer but there are others.
I also find it strange, the Kremlin’s causus belli has shifted from one month to another, Russian soldiers are not at all enthusiastic fighting this war, and hundreds of thousands of military age males have fled Russia.
But you would like to have more academics, that side with Putin’s perspective, explain why the situation is far more complex than it appears. I’ve listened to these arguments, they don’t link up well with the facts. But if you have an interesting point, I’m interested in studying it.
What if this war is straight forward? What if Russians are generally politically apathetic? What if Putin gambled and has lost? And what if these historians summarized the situation accurately?
The problem I have with these “oh it’s one-sided” spammed comments is that they bring nothing to the table… AT ALL.
@@TedATL1 Well it is anti-western to complain that a panel interview (which wasn’t a debate) should have included a contradictory perspective. I’m all for debates, but this was not a debate.
Also, censorship is the blocking of ideas from being expressed. Intelligence squared has provided plenty of debate forums for an anti-western or realist viewpoint. You demanding that every discussion on the topic include a Kremlin friendly perspective is anti-western and is in fact illiberal.
We are in an information war with Russia and Russia is trying to crush liberalism in Ukraine… maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and ACTUALLY combat censorship. Censorship in Russia, Iran, China, etc.
would be nice to have some Ukrainians on the panel to talk about … Ukraine, the subject of this talk. 🤷🏼♀️
And some Russians just to make it fair
Not necessarily. You don't necessarily invite an obese person to talk about the health problems of overweight, you invite an expert in the field, who may be stick thin. Unless a personal perspective or insider perspective is relevant and/or desirable, there is no need to invite someone who has a personal connection to the subject discussed. In a free society, anyone can talk about anything.
@@wh5254 OK, so bring Poles or Lithuanians, they exactly know what monster russia was and is.
It's a genocide and to stop genocide you can only by defeating agressor.
Problem is that Germany was occupied and hadn't nuclear weapons. russia is hard to occupy and they have weapons.
Society is fascist, some adequates are in brutal pressure of police.
Only victory of Ukraine can save the world.
Maybe it's better to hear from ethnic Russians who live in eastern Ukraine.
@@wh5254 Nothing about someone should be discussed without them
Russia does not pay any attention to agreements, treaties, or negotiations.
This debate is about as balanced as 1 elephant on a see-saw. Seriously what was the point? Turned off after 10 mins of utter horse plop
Are these people talking about the America that had initiated, financed, and created hundreds of wars, big, little and in between for over 200 years that I know of?
As if the British and Germans haven't.... Duh!
What Max Hastings was speaking of the anger and resentment that Russia holds for the US. I think that Russia needs to be reminded that every year that they celebrate their success in defeating Hitler, that that would not have happened without the support of the US. Russia, and Putin in particular, want to continue to rewrite their history in a way that shows them the valiant winners. It is fine to do so, but it is also hard to hide the facts. If Russia does not want to acknowledge this, I think that it should be a serious part of the conversation about Russia's ability to claim that they are a 'self made country.' There is no such thing any more that there is such a thing as a 'self made man' or a 'self made woman.' AND I am not saying that the US is perfect. You can look at our chaos right now and find plenty to talk about.
Here are two videos that will show what the US offered to 'Russia's defeating the Nazis.' th-cam.com/video/wtSigplwQ6Y/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/jltytoh1RbA/w-d-xo.html You will want to pay attention to the relative numbers of pieces of equipment as well as the number of tons and gallons of fuel that were shipped to Russia. If it had not been for the US, Russia would not have very much to claim about defeating Hitler and the Nazis in WWII.
your comment is not entirely fair. the first most difficult years, we had to fight the Nazis virtually one on one.
if it's not Russia, then US needed to fight Hitler themselves, not much to brag, really.
Are you insane? US has not joined WW2 until 1943, at that point USSR already broke Germany Army backbone and was pushing them back through Europe.
Brilliant discussion…
Intelligence only make you an expert of the past.
I predict the war in Ukraine will not turn into a frozen conflict just because Russia has frozen conflicts in other areas. Those other frozen conflict areas are small and sustainable. A frozen conflict which eats up manpower and is an ongoing wrecking ball to your economy is unsustainable.
Precisely. Why is everyone ignoring the economic abyss Russia is sliding into, an irreversible calamity?
@@richardcory5024 I don't see that anyone in the Western World is ignoring this abyss. The problem for Russia is that Putin appears to be ignoring it.
I won't predict. But this could well turn into a frozen conflict. Agreed that the economic and manpower problems make it unsustainable for Russia. But I don't think Putin himself recognizes those facts. As far as frozen conflicts go, having one with Ukraine would by far be the most important to Russia.
@@michaelbee2165 I agree Putin is ignoring it, but most commentators in the West don't don't take it enough into account, that the war against Russia is being waged and will be won on the economic front and the actual fighting is supplementary to that rather than the other way round. World War 3 is being fought by financial legislation. The US as good as rules the world economy.
@DEATH TO THE URAINE NAZIS Where is Uraine? I think you must be the idiot here, and illiterate as well! I suspect you are one of the few Russian trolls who has managed to evade conscription. Face it, you are a coward who is afraid to defend Mother Russia. You should face the same fate that awaits all Traitors to the Motherland!!
Lesson number one, keep your nose out of other people's business!
Good advice for the meddling dictator Putler, but he doesn’t listen to advice.
@@canadiangemstones7636 Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine? Who?
What an extraordinary discussion!
Margaret MacMillan makes a very good point about 'realists' who sees states interests and they can be measures etc 16.30 > . People like Mearsheimer have a huge following for those who like a clear narrative and someone to blame. There has been tremendous social change in eastern Europe and in particular Ukraine. They can travel freely and they have the internet giving them a window on the world few had even 40 years ago. Ukraine is moving to a European future but Yanukovych tried to keep the country linked to Russia. The people of Belarus voted for pro Europe parties but Lukashenko crushed the result by force-with Putin's full approval.
He refused to go along with brain dead austerity measures that would have disadvantaged the least well off and was overthrown in a fascist backed coup
I used to think history repeats itself, now I don't. I think times change, situations change, people's perceptions change, circumstances change ...... I love history, it's a valuable tool for understanding the world and where you came from. I think all this posturing ( this is one of the better posturings by the way, in my opinion; I actually understand what is being talked about. ) is for academia and the history books of the future. . I have this very naive view point that countries should be each to his own in peace. Invasion ? Why would you want to be where you're not wanted ?
History always repeats itself.
I think there is an implicit assumption in your line of reasoning, which is that every modern day country is made up of homogienous people (at least dominantly, mostly). But they are not. Take Ukraine, if 2/3 wants to live with EU, 1/3 wants to live Russia, should the 1/3 be IGNORED? (the debate about minority rights among academics), and what if the 2/3 tries to FORCE the 1/3? I think there is no black/white answer, its best for all sides to be considerate. The challenge is when one party acts belligerently, it causes a chain reaction and EVERYONE becomes belligerent.
@@Ajox191 not exactly but it often does rhyme.
You'd want to be where you're not wanted to gain money
History repeats itself yesterday, today and tomorrow. This’s the fact and that your opinion.
I cannot see where the topic 'what can history teach us?'' was ever actually addressed - if so, it was so minimal, or so understated, that I missed it - I suppose I'm going to have to listen to the whole thing again, - sigh ! Unless it's - if some delusional dictator with nuctear weapons want's to start a war then there we is nothing we can do about it except fight or surrender. Which answer can only be concluded by it's absence from the discussion.
Yeah its complete propaganda, this is just the US using Ukraine to fight Russia. I dont know if you have realized that Russia and China have been labled as threat for more than 30 years. In that time Russia and China have not even threatened or said anything to the US. And at the same time the US have been invading other countries and taking out their leaders. This is just the US trying to stay as the main power in the world so its trying destroy their countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember all these wars are to bring "peace and democracy" to these places but they just destroy it and leave it in ruins.
I think this was an absolutely fantastic discussion on the issue. I also share the perspective of the commentators. I know of the other perspectives, Putin's view, the Russian view, and those countries stuck in the middle. Their view. And I reject them all.
that´s why you are an idiot.
This is more like Ignorance2 or Obfuscation2. They cite the 2014 invasion but not the 2014 coup, and the 2008 invasion but not the 2008 Nato expansion.
Absolutely correct. Agree.
In 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union What should have a marshal plan looked like for Russia?
Infrastructure loans with requirements for transparency and accounting and legal standards. Instead, private enterprise went in to build, for example, airline communication links with Russian "partners", and those "Partners", just stole the installations after they were built. The courts were corrupt, and an Oligarch class of thieves became enabled and empowered. Not an easy job, but then again, we have trouble with corruption right here, too, despite our precautions.
West has been treating Russia like a special need baby for way too long. We are done.
Everyones thought that but apparently tons of money was given tho probably stolen by members of Russian government.
@@ladybug5859 Was this a reply? Or is this just you repeating something someone else said, that you actually don't know anything about?
USA and West were not interested becuase they have being hoping that Russia collapse too so they can take over Russia's natural resources. We know that it's stupid people that get fooled by the narrative that USA is interested in bringing democracy to anyone. They are interested in have governments that they can manipulate or just invade and then robb a country resources as they did with Iraq, Libya and later Syria
Historians usually have a poor understanding of the current political context. This panel is no exception. I'm going to say something which is not popular: Ukraine doesn't need Crimea and the occupied parts of the Donbas. This is where most of the Russians in Ukraine live, and Ukraine could live just fine without these. After retaking Kherson city today, not much left from the initial Russian occupation. The only major pro-Ukrainian city left under the Russian occupation is Melitopol. The biggest damage is done to the city of Mariupol, and Ukraine doesn't need to hurry in retaking this city. Even if Russia manages to freeze this conflict in the Donbas and Crimea, it can't freeze the Ukrainian path toward the West, which is already happening. Ukraine would be more stable without pro-Russian Crimea and Donbas. Ukraine has already become a candidate member of the EU, and it could live just like Cyprus which has an even bigger territorial dispute with Turkey. Or like South Korea and happily play a long-term game. Russia can't just unfreeze the conflict at will and start a new campaign, because the next time it will face a technologically superior enemy. The Russian army had been living on the old Soviet stock and the components coming from the West - both of which are gone by now.
Пішов за кораблем. Там наші люди і не тобі вирішувати що нам треба а що не треба. Ні сантиметру священної української землі рашисти не отримають.
Їх треба розгромити і не дати перегрупуватись. І ті регіони не повністю проросійські, є люди які нас чекають.
If your neighbor decides to take your back yard you’ll be ok? Let it take. It is easy to have an opinion that doesn’t touch you directly. Right?
@@katherinemunoz4138 I'm not trying to say what Ukraine should do; I'm just saying Ukraine is fine without Crimea (economically, politically, and militarily). Russia won't be in a position to restart the attack in the future. After all, it's easy to say Ukraine should "take the land back". That will come with a huge price. If the West stands behind Ukraine as long as it takes, the time is on the Ukrainian side. Russia can't play this game in isolation forever. But of course, it's on Ukraine to decide what to do, and my comment doesn't imply in any way what Ukraine should do.
It has nothing to do with ethnic destination. It is about power. Pure and simple.
Well..done..guys...
How many Europeans does it take to beat Putin in a game of chess?
None of them can beat Putin as he is on the side of truth and truth always prevails and shines like son . Putin is force of good over evil west
Ll
the Americans play checkers.
One bullet.
BS
Thanks
Peter Frankopan - interesting historian. As for the war, if Ukraine manages to threaten and even evicts Russian forces from Crimea then anything is possible.
Did you have a similar session on Iraq 🇮🇶, Afghanistan 🇦🇫 and other countries where similar butchery that the west created?
The Rest of the world has changed its course of direction leaving the West behind.
Continue Sitting and chatting all day or night with your lack lustre stuff, with none from the East lending their ears to you.
The new formula for the East is:
“The Grace of the East will rise and rule while the beasts of the West butchers the world.“
They’re not having one on Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment but I hear they’re organising one to discuss that brilliant NATO triumph in Libya. The West bludgeoned a country with the highest per capita income in Africa to one where there’s open slave markets. All because Gaddaffi wanted to accept currencies other than the petro-dollar. The arrogance of these three panelists beggars belief.
These people are propagandists. They are “ Political Scientists”.
@@dipakbose2677 The befitting name for these kind of people is “Political Satans” not ‘Political Scientists’.
You do realize that these other conflicts have very different political backgrounds?
Not good discussion at all....
Left and socialistic neo-marxistic...
I am not sure how the emotion argument adds to the post-hoc explanation of why the invasion took place. I think the argument of Frankopan also is not particularly that Putin was trying to be opportunistic. This ignores a number of facts that preceded the invasion and the evidence that Ukrainian army had effectively become a well oiled NATO proxy and time was working against Russia, not in its favour.
It is the Americans that started talking about nuclear war. The Russians have confined themselves to saying they are ready to respond with their own nuclear weapons.
Such a bright minds, brave people. Having the same brilliant opinion.
Fighting the evil. Protecting the good.
This is so important to manage dialog only with people sharing the same opinion.
Sharing dialogue with people sharing the same opinion is the fastest way to learn nothing at all and to also ensure that your mistakes get bigger and more profound.
Ah freedom. Wonderful wonderful biased freedom.
They are corrupt fools.
'Same opinion ' dialogue is called ....a monologue.
@@Englishman999 Exactly. When only we talk and agree, we learn nothing
Yes, a comment has been made that Germany, France and Italy haven't given over much weaponry but this was put down to merely that they still want Russian gas-very simplistic . The fact therefore is proven that the US coerced them into the war for its own objectives. Of course, the US is never to blame it seems.
Dushen, US didn't wage war . it's Russia
@@77kromah Spot on! This is Putin's War....
Solution by President Kennedy to remove missiles from Turkey is the way to win win solution. Learn from Cuba missiles in 1962
It’s a very weird world we live in when we actually have to think about helping the Ukrainians militarily or not, I thought that was a given, something you just do in such extreme scenario and not sit and discuss wether it’s our best tactical or economical move or not. Obviously I’m a naive idiot for even posing the question.
Also, the reason Max Hastings is saying we _really_ didn’t know prior to Feb 24, is either lack of imagination or information. Here’s a tip: To successfully figure things out, make sure you draw information from multiple areas, just go by history alone it’s not enough. This war should never have happened, simple as that. Already in Mars 2000, a Swedish news paper (DN) wrote about this happening saying Putin is the next Stalin and it’s just a matter of time.
And we all saw what happened in Grosnyj, and the apartment bombings in Moscow, and saw how he handled Kursk and Dubrov, the writing was on the wall long before the Munish speech and Georgia. How much more clues do you need? Besides that, Russia is a thug state to begin with and have always been that, so why people act surprised is a mystery. Someone remind me, how many days was it before he just took over channel one after he took office? (maybe that's where that expression comes from..)
The important thing now is weapons, weapons, weapons and to not repeat this behavior before the next up-coming despot. It's time for some new protocols.
Jeez, I sound like I think I know everything, which I most definitely don't do.
weapons for what, so that the people in Russia have no doubts that they need to rally around Putin? Musk's proposals seem reasonable to me in Russia to stop this carnage.
You are absolutely correct. It doesn’t matter when you eat as long as you aren’t starving and sustain your weight ie. don’t waste away.
I love the way it works. The rest of the population perish in the wars while Anglophones do the talking, writing and making money over it. Good business indeed.
Where is the space for freedom and not being kill on the street, in Your mind?
Good business is to buy bloody oil from dictatorships like Russia but still call your country 'biggest democracy'
1:15:45 There's no ideology at stake? That claim seems so extremely debatable to me... What about democracy?
According to Putin, Russia is democratic but not as decadent as the West. And decadence is not an ideology.
@@ehoworka According to Putin. Let's ask those 700k Russians that fled mobilization what they think about it.
Ukraine has supended opposition parties and shut down all media bar 1 state controlled media. Ukraine has the highest oligarchial per capita contingency. Zelensky was named in the Pandora papers for his millions in off shore tax havens. Democracy is more than a word.
@@msbramble176 They're being invaded you damn fool, of course it's not democracy going on as usual, doesn't mean Ukrainians aren't fully commited to it in peacetime. They are fully aware of their corruption problem, but contrary to Russia actually try to get rid of it, hence why Zelensky for which it was a major electoral promise got elected with such a huge majority. He might not be 100% clean, but he did start implementing measures against corruption, some of which were blocked by other corrupt officials, and from the point they're starting from this issue obviously won't be magically solved in an instant by merely snapping their fingers.
Meanwhile Russia didn't wait for a single boot on its soil to do the same with medias, and to even throw peace protestors into jail. Oh, and he didn't even need a war to assassinate its political opponents.
Russians are so full of apathy toward politics it's as if they don't care about democracy. You cannot say the same about Ukraine.
@@msbramble176 Also you're really naive if you don't realize just how many of this corruption literally emanates from Russia. Not all of it but definitely a lot of it. It's one of the biggest reason they wanted to take distance from Russia prior to the Maidan revolution.
This deserves much better audio. The sound quality is terrible.
I thought this channel was about debates, not parroting MSM talking points.
The best way to explain why people are always anxious about Russia and the West having these stockpiles of nuclear weapons is that if someone is keeping a gun in his house, this gun for some reason or another can be use for self defense or offense to protect the house owners interest against its neighbors
@@KiwiKool are tmyou drunk nukes are simply for bluffing nobody wants to use them everyone's afraid to die
Who attacked Iraq, Libya, Siryu, Vietnam and many, many other countries
Sorry I don’t get the analogy. Everyone I know has at least one gun, if not at least a pistol probably also an AR-15. I hope my neighbors are also well armed. I want them armed. How does this apply to nuclear weapons?