If you agree with the watchmaker argument, you also have to agree that there must be gods of various levels; such as cheap gods (Casio), or lavishly aesthetically pleasing gods (apple), and also affordable gods (timex). And then these gods have a pecking order, which means that the watch/god you found could be of a lower quality or function. So is your god Casio or Apple?
@@swapnilnarendra But there are such levels of gods, at least in Hinduism! I don't know about other religions, but Hinduism has it. And this 'partiality' between gods has led to so many different sects. Each sect has their own 'supreme god' and other gods are somewhat inferior than their god.
Just saw your interview with Arif Hussain Theruvath. Nice that you have balanced views on everything. I'm a Malayalam follower of Arif's channel and wanted to share with you that though he is not very articulate in English, his Malayalam speeches and presentations are excellent and just like you, he has great clarity of thought and arguments for everything he believes in. Hope to see you both having similar conversations in the future and it would be interesting because of the opposite religious backgrounds that you both come from and the insights you will be able to provide into your respective backgrounds.
Another fallacy is that we assume everything is in perfect order and exactly as it should be. It's again about frame of reference. If the universe was constructed in an entirely different way, with different laws governing nature, time and space, we'd have assumed that was perfect order. And if then someone told us that the existence of another system ruled by Einstein's theories and carbon based life was possible, we'd have shouted that person out of the room.
Always Pleasure to listen your perspective about popular arguments. I just remember from your universe example some time ago NASA's telescope captured first light wave of big bang time period.
That's true. But absence of evidence is at least absence of evidence. Having an open mind is all good. But these guys often have absolute faith. Which is way more than an open mind.
Except theists use this logic as - “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and therefore almost same as presence of evidence. So, now i can believe whatever i can”
@@vimoh Wrong! It has nothing to do with faith. It has everything to do with using basic logic and reasoning to establish that the universe has a maker (a creator).
I loved the Gober and Worm explanation. To better understand it, if I am giving this argument to someone, I'll start with two worms having reproduction inside the Gober, and the offspring will think that the Gober is ordered for me; hence, someone must have created it for me. But the fact is, it's just Gober who will still be the Gober without the worms. Same with humans who are in the present world because of their ancestor's reproduction in the past, and they think that the world is made for themselves. The analogy of the Universe(Gober) and Worms(Human) works perfectly. 👍
And even inside that frame of reference, the application of their logic is flawed as well. They say if you find a clock in a jungle, you wouldn’t conclude that the watch just came to exist by itself because unlike a rock or stick or dirt - the clock “obviously” was designed by someone and has purpose. And then they conclude that the universe was intricately designed too as they see a purpose, while conveniently forgetting that in the previous step they just said that the rock/stick/dirt (which are all part of the universe) were something they said “not intelligently designed” as opposed to the clock.
As an Atheist this is usually my thoughts on The Watchmaker Analogy and it makes me happy seeing someone put it as formulated as you did, as I consider The Watchmaker Analogy one of the stronger houses of Arguments as a person who sees Biology as Beautiful. Men don't need to look at the Order of Watches and Intutively know it's Intelligently Designed. No one actually does that as we ALREADY know the origin of Watches. The Fallacy Theists make here is Composition / Division.
Do you know the origin of UFOs? What if you spotted an alien spaceship - wouldn't you naturally wonder who made it and where it came from? The fingerprints of intelligent design are all around us. But atheists would rather stick their heads in the sand and pretend our complex universe never had a beginning.
The premise of any research is to observe research and then find a conclusion based on the evidence that one discovers while working on it. But the theist notion os completely the other way they first find ir make a conclusion find evidence tosupport their claims and make observation as its right because we have ambiguous research to support it
Yes gabar is suitable for gobar worms and soil is suitable for soil worms. There must be God who knows what all living things want and needed. The milk only come into existence when child born, think about it. 🤨
it’s irrelevant whether atheists can disprove god or not because atheists don’t need to do that in the first place. In fact atheists wouldn’t even talk about god if theists don’t claim god exists in the first place without proof. Because the idea of god itself comes from theists, it is their burden to prove it - else there is no reason to believe their claim.
Nice video. On similar lines, I was having a discussion with a theist friend. At the end of it I asked her to prove the existence of God. She told me that it is highly likely that God's absence is how God manifests himself in our world. Rather than bringing proofs of God, the theists come up with a new argument every other day. 😑
lol, proving the existence of God is like asking for proof that you actually loved you deceased parents or grandparents. You cannot use science to prove or disprove the existence of God. You need to use philosophy and theology.
wow, this is the dumbest argument made by Vimoh! Here's another simple watchmaker analogy - if you are walking on the beach, and came across a spaceship hovering in midair, you would naturally wonder who created that spacecraft? Similarly, when humans look at the cosmos, we naturally wonder who created the universe that consists of planets, stars, and galaxies, in which certain laws of physics exist. Who created these complex laws of nature? Who created space, time, matter, gravity? Using basic logic and reasoning helps us derive what the watchmaker analogy is trying to assert - the universe and everything in it must also have a maker (a creator) - which we call God.
I use the Darts in Dark Room argument. If you throw 100 darts toward a dart board in a dark room, one of them is gonna hit Bullseye. That's us, the bullseye of the universe.
Your explanation of the watchmaker analogy can be used to prove that we live in a simulation I think. We have already created games that simulate an entire universe in their game engine, For example, a game called Nomansky has 256unique galaxies in it. And the AI engine generates new galaxies and populates them with animals and plants automatically. The NPCs in the game will not know that they are in a simulation they are just like the hosts in Westworld. ("Doesn't look like anything to me") 👈hope you know the reference FYI I don't personally believe that we are living in a simulation or in any sky daddies.
@@vimoh lol, it's shocking that Vimoh still thinks that science can prove or disprove God. The topic of a creator can never be answered by science. It's a topic that can only be answered through philosophy and theology.
If you agree with the watchmaker argument, you also have to agree that there must be gods of various levels; such as cheap gods (Casio), or lavishly aesthetically pleasing gods (apple), and also affordable gods (timex). And then these gods have a pecking order, which means that the watch/god you found could be of a lower quality or function. So is your god Casio or Apple?
No you don't, the analogy only refers to an intelligent designer ( humans that is) not a specific person.
@@arpitloveen6997 it might be sarcastic, ever thought of that?
No, your line of deducting these arguments absolutely makes no sense. But at least you are acknowledging that there is a maker (a creator).
@@swapnilnarendra But there are such levels of gods, at least in Hinduism! I don't know about other religions, but Hinduism has it. And this 'partiality' between gods has led to so many different sects. Each sect has their own 'supreme god' and other gods are somewhat inferior than their god.
Really great explanation. Thank you.
Love the gobar explanation. In addition to frame of reference it also shows how self centered humans are actually
Just saw your interview with Arif Hussain Theruvath. Nice that you have balanced views on everything. I'm a Malayalam follower of Arif's channel and wanted to share with you that though he is not very articulate in English, his Malayalam speeches and presentations are excellent and just like you, he has great clarity of thought and arguments for everything he believes in. Hope to see you both having similar conversations in the future and it would be interesting because of the opposite religious backgrounds that you both come from and the insights you will be able to provide into your respective backgrounds.
Another fallacy is that we assume everything is in perfect order and exactly as it should be. It's again about frame of reference. If the universe was constructed in an entirely different way, with different laws governing nature, time and space, we'd have assumed that was perfect order. And if then someone told us that the existence of another system ruled by Einstein's theories and carbon based life was possible, we'd have shouted that person out of the room.
Always Pleasure to listen your perspective about popular arguments. I just remember from your universe example some time ago NASA's telescope captured first light wave of big bang time period.
Please never stop doing it. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
sir in a short a person was telling like:
the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence 🙄
That's true. But absence of evidence is at least absence of evidence. Having an open mind is all good. But these guys often have absolute faith. Which is way more than an open mind.
Except theists use this logic as - “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and therefore almost same as presence of evidence. So, now i can believe whatever i can”
yes you are right that it is not the evidence of absence but it also is not the evidence of presence
@@vimoh Wrong! It has nothing to do with faith. It has everything to do with using basic logic and reasoning to establish that the universe has a maker (a creator).
I loved the Gober and Worm explanation. To better understand it, if I am giving this argument to someone, I'll start with two worms having reproduction inside the Gober, and the offspring will think that the Gober is ordered for me; hence, someone must have created it for me.
But the fact is, it's just Gober who will still be the Gober without the worms. Same with humans who are in the present world because of their ancestor's reproduction in the past, and they think that the world is made for themselves. The analogy of the Universe(Gober) and Worms(Human) works perfectly. 👍
And even inside that frame of reference, the application of their logic is flawed as well. They say if you find a clock in a jungle, you wouldn’t conclude that the watch just came to exist by itself because unlike a rock or stick or dirt - the clock “obviously” was designed by someone and has purpose. And then they conclude that the universe was intricately designed too as they see a purpose, while conveniently forgetting that in the previous step they just said that the rock/stick/dirt (which are all part of the universe) were something they said “not intelligently designed” as opposed to the clock.
As an Atheist this is usually my thoughts on The Watchmaker Analogy and it makes me happy seeing someone put it as formulated as you did, as I consider The Watchmaker Analogy one of the stronger houses of Arguments as a person who sees Biology as Beautiful.
Men don't need to look at the Order of Watches and Intutively know it's Intelligently Designed. No one actually does that as we ALREADY know the origin of Watches. The Fallacy Theists make here is Composition / Division.
Do you know the origin of UFOs? What if you spotted an alien spaceship - wouldn't you naturally wonder who made it and where it came from? The fingerprints of intelligent design are all around us. But atheists would rather stick their heads in the sand and pretend our complex universe never had a beginning.
Bob .. can you plz modulate your volume of voice... It's interesting topic... But difficult to hear you... Thanx
The premise of any research is to observe research and then find a conclusion based on the evidence that one discovers while working on it. But the theist notion os completely the other way they first find ir make a conclusion find evidence tosupport their claims and make observation as its right because we have ambiguous research to support it
Yes gabar is suitable for gobar worms and soil is suitable for soil worms. There must be God who knows what all living things want and needed. The milk only come into existence when child born, think about it. 🤨
Yes and there are known biological reasons behind it. No evidence of God doing it.
God no God is one’s belief… also u can’t just disprove that don’t exist
I can't prove that cosmic teddy bears exist. Is that a good reason to believe they exist?
@@vimoh that’s the point there you don’t need to prove or disprove that don’t exist.
you need to prove God exist rather than God doesn't exist. If a criminal is guilty, you need to prove the guilt rather than innocence.
it’s irrelevant whether atheists can disprove god or not because atheists don’t need to do that in the first place. In fact atheists wouldn’t even talk about god if theists don’t claim god exists in the first place without proof. Because the idea of god itself comes from theists, it is their burden to prove it - else there is no reason to believe their claim.
Unfalsefiable statement some question cant have a so called exact answer
Nice video. On similar lines, I was having a discussion with a theist friend. At the end of it I asked her to prove the existence of God. She told me that it is highly likely that God's absence is how God manifests himself in our world. Rather than bringing proofs of God, the theists come up with a new argument every other day. 😑
just like a non vegetarian & thiefs also can explain 😂
lol, proving the existence of God is like asking for proof that you actually loved you deceased parents or grandparents. You cannot use science to prove or disprove the existence of God. You need to use philosophy and theology.
Great example of cow dung and worms. Bravo👏
👌🏻👌🏻
a new explanation....so much waoo
too bad to the new explanation is really dumb.
wow, this is the dumbest argument made by Vimoh! Here's another simple watchmaker analogy - if you are walking on the beach, and came across a spaceship hovering in midair, you would naturally wonder who created that spacecraft? Similarly, when humans look at the cosmos, we naturally wonder who created the universe that consists of planets, stars, and galaxies, in which certain laws of physics exist. Who created these complex laws of nature? Who created space, time, matter, gravity? Using basic logic and reasoning helps us derive what the watchmaker analogy is trying to assert - the universe and everything in it must also have a maker (a creator) - which we call God.
@@deviceinside You are a earthworm 🪱
And Your Cow dung is made by God that's your gaw mata 🫣
I use the Darts in Dark Room argument. If you throw 100 darts toward a dart board in a dark room, one of them is gonna hit Bullseye. That's us, the bullseye of the universe.
who made the dartboard and threw the darts in the first place? Hmm...maybe our creator.
When u put universe in the place of watch🥱
because there is a god, there must be a god maker. and who is the god maker?
Your explanation of the watchmaker analogy can be used to prove that we live in a simulation I think. We have already created games that simulate an entire universe in their game engine, For example, a game called Nomansky has 256unique galaxies in it.
And the AI engine generates new galaxies and populates them with animals and plants automatically. The NPCs in the game will not know that they are in a simulation they are just like the hosts in Westworld. ("Doesn't look like anything to me") 👈hope you know the reference
FYI I don't personally believe that we are living in a simulation or in any sky daddies.
My explanation was about whether there is grounds to investigate something. It wasn't about proof or evidence.
@@vimoh lol, it's shocking that Vimoh still thinks that science can prove or disprove God. The topic of a creator can never be answered by science. It's a topic that can only be answered through philosophy and theology.
Heyy, please talk with Bhaujan Sahitya Channel.
Wow... the cow dung analogy nails it...Awesome
yes, Vimoh's thinking is at the level of cow dung 💩
Lame logic
Lol, we still don't know even what the universe is? And these thiest are adamant at the universe was created by someone 😂😂😂
Well, it's common sense that "something" does not come from "nothing". Hence, a creator (aka God), is the logical explanation.