I know ONE game that made an illiterate character, and it was Kingdom Come Deliverance. Loved it, when i opened a book, and the letters were all mixed up, complete gibberish. As your reading skill went up, the text was slowly getting better, but still had mistakes, and honestly it was funny to read it like that.
It was sort of like dyslexia though, at least until you leveled your reading skill. Still one of my favorite games of all time though. Very excited for KCD 2!
KCD does a million things right. Illiteracy is one. I also had a soft spot for the treasure maps. It was so fun to go treasure hunting while having no gps map-marker showing where the treasure was hidden, but you had to use these hand drawn sketches that weren't all that precise. I also liked how the game handled food, drink and sleep. Like when Henry got sleepy he would start dozing off, which would be a major encumberance when you're trying to do anything at all. Also food would grant bonuses and some healing, but you can't eat an indefinite amount of food before you get full, and being too full gave significant debuffs. The way clothes and armour worked was also very logical and great. Some clothes are flashy and good for making a good impression during social interactions. Others make you less noticeable, and not just in the sense of physical camouflage but also in a social sense that you just look like a random peasant that people don't take notice of.
@@jeremyscungio16 You don't necessarily need an end to structured society, you just usually have your character acting outside of it. That can be due to a collapse, or just cuz they're criminals, or they're living somewhere where the regular rules don't apply. "Office Job 3" games are also kinda thriving as well tbh, Stardew and the cozy games, Power Wash sim and the satisfying games.
@@LikeACroutonthe Dungeon Master's Guide of 3.5e dnd has a great description on how this works In the overworld, or general society, you'll still have laws, culture, religion, etc. But once you stray off the path, or enter the dungeon, the rules change. That's why a lawful good paladin is in the right to nearly indiscriminately slay cultists in their "dungeon", but has to be more careful of his behavior elsewhere. It's not always applicable, and I probably did a terrible job of explaining it, but the idea behind it has always been really intrigueing to me
One of the more annoying aspects of many AAA modern games is not trying new things with new IPs. I love new IPs and wish they were propped up more than the 70th call of duty.
Same. Even if your new IP is bad or not very thought through, there's still value in the fact that you set out to make something new. Instead of just trying to ride the coat tails of someone elses IP. Or the worst transgression of all: taking someone elses IP, changing it and bastardizing it beyond recognition. Sadly we've seen a lot of the latter kind lately.
@@JediFan421I do when something interesting comes up. My favourite indie game has to be the survival horror game Darkwood by the small Polish dev team Acid Wizard. With that said: for a long time it felt like indie games did nothing but walking simulators and 2d scrollers with dark and edgy Tim Burton-esque graphics, and this lack of originality was a big turn off.
Wow, Tim... You're a great story teller Also, In Kindom Come: Deliverance. You start the game illiterate and can slowy become literate. I loved that mechanic, it genuinely felt like a couldnt read and was actually slowly learning.
Yes but in KCD you play as an adult peasant in a relatively civilized land. There's still infrastructure and tutors etc out there that can teach you to read. Not the same scenario as the one in Tim's story, where the kid is on his own in an apocalypse, and never learned how to read beforehand, and probably never will
I’m in the bathroom listening to Tim talk and I hear breathing. For a second I got some horror vibes. “Is someone breathing? Wtf is that? Ohhhh must be a dog of camera”. I didn’t know the breathing was coming from Tim’s video lmfao
I'm developing my own IP and I'm following your guidance on setting, story, and system mechanics. These videos are incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.
There is a game I played called Heart of Darkness where you played a kid trying to find his dog in an alien dimension, and it had some really gnarly death animations. That said it was the mid 90s and idk how well it sold.
I remember it. The game was in dev for 6+ years, started in 1992 , released in 1998. So what started as state of the art pixel graphics supported by rendered cutscenes and backgrounds was outdated heavily but the graphical progress at that time. The screen resolution was 256*192, which was a "who even does that?" at that time. You can see fragments of that history in reviews saying "the game runs but it's only using 80% of my screen" because no monitor since ages supports below 320*240. Thanks to the retro revival it would seem less dated now than it was at the time of release.
Tim talking about games with child deaths made me think of Heart of Darkness as well. It had positively sadistic death animations at times - worse, even, than Limbo despite the colourful themes. It was the one game that I felt "got me" when I was 12 yo. There was no pandering, only a authentic understanding of the mind of a 12 yo boy. We used to draw similar gnarly deaths in the margins of our notebooks at school, and here suddenly we had a game about all about those kind of sketchbook deaths, lol.
Question: In Fallout 1, Harold’s story about his expedition into Mariposa military base mentions about 4 people for the expedition. Harold, Richard Grey, a name I’m blanking on, and Mark. After one or two other people got killed, Mark was wounded, so he went up to the surface. In the vat room, Harold was knocked by the crane by the vat. Richard Gray fell into the vat while Harold fell to the side of the vat and knocked unconscious. Somehow, Harold woke up later on the surface with no memory as to how he got there. So, did Mark go back to get him? We know Grey didn’t know that Harold even survived, so it had to be Mark that dragged him out of there. Was it Mark that dragged Harold out of Mariposa? Did the original team have any plans for Mark returning in a future game? Am I just looking too deep into this? This is a burning question of mine that I hope you can answer.
Do you or have you ever felt pressure, internally or externally, while making a game to live up to your past creations? How do you deal with it? As a musician I always end up comparing new songs to what I feel our best song is and I'm curious if other creatives experience the same. Really happy I stumbled across your channel!
Love the idea of developing that hiding skill as a child. Like maybe the first time you need to hide from something, there is a flashback to playing hide and seek with your family, and the tutorial area has something that looks like an obviously perfect hiding place, but once you go there it switches point of view to your mum who laughs and points out that you have to hide your feet when you stand behind curtains or something to that effect. Then suddenly you're back in the room you were in originally and all of the places that looked like great hiding spots are now obviously terrible.
Question for Tim! The current state of game development is that games take too much time to develop. In the past, it was possible to make a game in couple of years (Fallout 2 - 9 months, GTA: San Andreas - 2 years) Now it takes more than one console generation (Fallout 4 - 5 years, GTA 6 - i hope only 7 years) I understand that players want more with each game, better graphic, increased scale. But it is going crazy. How one programmer is able to be in a company for just one full development cycle? What is your take on this issue? Will it change in the future? Will large developments be unsustainable in the future? Will indie games conquer the scene? Will big companies go bankrupt? Thanks a lot
games taking too much time to develop is a AAA problem and a management problem. those same companies could make games in 2 years instead of 5. a large number of these games that took 4+ years and costed hunders of millions are also of lower quality than AA games that took 1 year and like 3 million too.
I'm not in the industry, so far from an expert, but I imagine a big part of it is also games lasting longer. GTA 6 didn't have to come out in 2 years because GTA 5 has been in continuous development instead, through GTA Online. Nobody really cares much for a Dota 3, when the second one isn't even in a completely "finished" state.
Sounds like Among The Sleep. I LOVED playing as a toddler in that game. It was so interesting to see what I could do. It mainly just prevented me from reaching shelves. LOL.
One thing I really like about you Tim is that when you share valuable knowledge and experience like this, I get this distinct impression that you basically hope it might influence someone to make a cool game that you'll enjoy. Reciprocal altruism in action. 😄
Just discovered your channel after the fallout show reintroduced me into the fallout series. I grew up playing 1 and 2 and was hooked on the games. Being older I can appreciate the lore and the behind the scenes fascinating. Thank you for your work
Aselia the Eternal is probably the most striking example of this. The game throws the main character into a different world and everything is gibberish while you slowly learn the language. The voice acting is also done in this fantasy language, so the experience is very immersive. Final Fantasy X did this with the Al Bhed language, you need to get a bunch of primers to completely decipher it. Although the use of Al Bhed in the game is not that prevalent, so it's not a big deal if you don't get it.
Thank you so much, Mr. Cain. You don't have to make these videos yet you took time out of your day to help people just getting started. A neat idea -- that you may find is too adversarial to your original idea -- is how companions play a factor in your pitch. Say you meet an NPC that can teach you how to read a little but is only out for themselves, so if a situation becomes too dicey, they'll abandon you. Or say there's an NPC that teaches you how to drive a little except they're bad at it. These ideas might get shot down minute one, but the point is to show how a neat idea can be talked about and expanded on.
I love this concept. The vibe I get from the setting is Star Trek TOS S1 E8 "Miri", but like the origin story of that world from a child's perspective.
I love this 5-year-old approach and the limitations that come from that. I have an idea currently that is also based on limitations, but of different sort. I haven't really been able to put it into a story or any detail yet, but this is actually a really great video to see for me. Also, I just love how you explain things, it's informative but also fun and funny.
Damn it Tim, make it already. I love this video where you put into practice the principles set out in earlier vids. I'd be interested in how you'd apply the pillars 'exercise' (for want of a better word) for Post Apoc. Kid.
i'm 38 and i've been trying to be a good writer all my life, still feels like I have so much to learn, where to start the story has been a 15 year journey for me, but i think i have a great opening now :)
Awesome getting an insight into early setting and design concepting. Thanks for sharing one of your fleshed out ideas to the world Tim, that's very generous! Have a great weekend-and walk your dog and give him a treat he's a goodboi!
Going through all this man's videos and slamming the like button ! Thank you for your videos Tim the insight you give is amazing cant express it in enough words that TH-cam will allow !
Thank you Tim, this is one of my favourite videos. Trying too get a new project into a playable state, been working on the conceptual design for quite some time. Allot of what was discussed is relevant too many parts of a project.
thank you for this. at the perfect time when i finally thought of an IP/premise for a game; been banging my head for something i like for years now. i dont even know how to start on this but you gave me some great ways to make it a whole lot more interesting right off the bat. that game with the 5 year old would be awesome to play by the way. sounds dope
In the book publishing world, what you'd say to an agent (or what an agent might say to a publisher) is that your book is a "standalone with series potential" which could be language a potential game publisher might enjoy; regarding your point at 13:00
The idea of the listening to the news and not understanding as a kid is a cool idea, the gibberish idea when watching the news made me think of the Charlie Brown and went the adults talk
At first I was very curious why it was so important that the character was so young. But as you got into further details the lack of complex language skills, at that specific age range, while still having at least a semblance of potential independence makes for a very unique experience.
Tim you should read "Anna" by Niccolo Ammaniti. Its an apocalypse story in a world where everyone is infected with a disease that kills them after they turn 13, so there are only children in the world. I know you are probably not actually pitching this game but still, its a good book!
language/communication mechanics are fascinating. what i'm working on has a similar character premise (child-like "blank slate" making sense of a world) but in a totally different genre and setting. consequently, i end up with a different system than what seems like yours would have. like you described, the system design and mechanics naturally flow from and manifest based on the initial game premise.
Damn, this game sounds so interesting. I get a survival horror RPG vibes from it, which is a pretty unique combo but would totally work. The intro cinematic you described absolutely hooked me in, which I suppose was the whole point of it. I'm not a dev, I just like games and I like listening to your dev stories. But now I kinda hope some talented indie dev team "steal" this idea and actually makes it into a proper game. Well, maybe not steal it, but use it as an inspiration, cause if it's done right it could be absolutely amazing.
Love this idea! I've always thought that language skills were underused in RPGs. I also think it would be interesting to really start from level 1 (a kid) and progress from there (like a fallout 3 + Kingdom Come mashup).
Very good video. This went through very similarly to how my friend approached me last year with the idea for a game. This is originally how I found your video as I started looking about game design documents. She wanted to use one of my WIP comics to create a game since we worked on it together from time to time. For about 6 months I worked on the design document, the story was mostly written and aesthetically it looked solid enough. At least for the short amount of time we worked on it. It was going to be a cyberpunk story set in a post-(post?)apocalypse with a mankind that was grown past the initial destruction. It wasn't nuclear based, but a war devastating enough, and long enough that both society and the culture of the setting reflect a cold, militaristic society mixed in with the aggressive stylization of cyberpunk. Think something like AKIRA for the cities, and Mad Max for the destroyed cities and wastes.
I think when considering showing child death in a game it is important to ask yourself "What does this add?". If the goal of a scene is to show how brutal and unforgiving a world is then make sure the scene supports that, and does not distract from the goal. If the goal is to just be edgy and show child death then maybe think about if that goal adds anything to the overall goal of the game. I think edgelord stuff got way too popular in the mid 2000's to the early 2010's that pubs are just so weary of anything that could be considered edgelord. Tragedy can either be an impactful story device or it can just be a way to add shock value. Impactful stories tend to be remembered.
If you haven't played I highly recommend Kingdom Come Deliverance, Tim! You basically start out as a medieval peasant who can't tie his shoelaces and have to work on your skills gradually by using them. There is a sequel coming very very soon. I'm sure you would love it!
4:00 I liked Fallout 4 where I could play the opening so I could immerse myself more in the character from before the world got destroyed and think of how the character would act in the wasteland based on how he was before the bombs dropped but I guess that could be achieved by a cinematic too but that cinematic would be too long I think.
@@UlissesSampaio yeah an opening to a game is great so the player can connect more to a character and understand their motives, but a cinematic would maybe be too long for the average gamer who would maybe like it more that they can play themselves instead of watching a cinematic for a couple of minutes.
I’d love to see more discussion on choosing the right hook! “Evocative” is a good criterion to add. I know you’ve talked about setting extensively, and hook is probably downstream from there. I actually started my game premise from the hook and feel I’m still paying the price of figuring out my setting. (Or maybe figuring out the setting is hard no matter how you slice it.)
I know Tim would never openly criticize the direction Bethesda took Fallout, but listening to all these videos, damn. I think they couldn't miss the mark harder if they tried.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS IDEA FOR A GAME. I also think it would be cool if you had a weapons skill but you had to learn it to wield better things. You start only being able to wield the most childish weapons (like a stick for example). But then you slowly learn more avout the world and work your way up to slingshots, to more technical things like bb guhs or a lighter with some hairspray, maybe even a bow and arrow or basic firearms and blades in the later stages if the games.
First off, thank you for the guidance on developing IP... Also I enjoyed the cinematic you described... I've typically disliked it when games start with an opening cinematic (with some exceptions, like games whose mechanics I'm primed to enjoy based on previous experience with the genre), but after listening to you speak Tim, I realize that maybe the issue isn't with cinematics as an implementation but rather those individual games' execution of a cinematic... if I played a game with the cinematic you described I believe I would be engaged... So thank you for the bonus nugget of insight.
Iv read a bunch of Manga that start in the same way, some have the sibling as 'evil' and some as a spirit or dream. It evokes strong emotions and something a lot of people can relate to, lots of options of what to do after.
An interesting idea for an IP. I think such game would really need some kind of sanity meter. Even just the events in the opening cinematic would probably traumatize the poor five year old for life. And then trying to survive in such world would probably continuously tried his sanity which could also be tied into how much of a civilized past he would be able to keep and not becoming a small monster himself. It could be pretty complex.
I'd Love it if you could talk more about Outer Worlds creation? Are working on different engines hard? How different was Making Outer Worlds compared to Fallout? They have similar aspects but are also very different!
You managed to hook me as far as I got a vision of how I'd like make game like that before the 12 minute mark had passed.😅 Though I'd usually would prefer a realistic 3D game for something like this. I did go straight to an isometric 32X or PC Engine sort of style in my head. Could be in part the Saturday morning cartoon setting that made gravitate towards that though. 🙃
Your whole idea here reminds me a lot of this old science fiction show that J.Michael Stracynsky made a few decades ago (the guy who made Babylon 5). Sean Astin was in. It was a post-apocalyptic setting where there was some virus or something that killed *everyone* above a certain age, leaving children to rebuild everything. IIRC it starts about 10 years after the apocalypse, so there are already some crude societies and settlements built up, but it's still largely anarchic. Was a pretty fun show, but it kinda fizzled out after the first season.
There was an idea I had, was originally for a webcomic but I wonder if it would work better as a game Sort of similar in quite a few ways but you've rejuvenated my enthusiasm for it, I'll need to get back to learning unreal
Great explanation for developing you own IP. The idea is kind of brilliant and unique. It's interesting as I was listening I kept thinking about the concept of being a child in a game and how unique that was. No other game does that. Then you mentioned Limbo at the end (great game BTW) and I realized, oh yeah, that was one. I was immersed in the idea of playing as a child so much I forgot about those other games. Please do more of these. They just such great seeing inside your brain.
Tim should check out the game Tunic. It's based entirely around the fact that most in-game text including the tutorials are in a fake alphabet and you have to infer from pictures and context.
Reminds me of some LitRPG settings. Starting as a kid would be interesting. Some of the downsides of the character being a kid would be negated by the player being older and knowing stuff, so it would be interesting to see how designers overcome that (i.e. making the words on signs and stuff be a bunch of random, incoherent symbols to mimic illiteracy).
I know ONE game that made an illiterate character, and it was Kingdom Come Deliverance. Loved it, when i opened a book, and the letters were all mixed up, complete gibberish.
As your reading skill went up, the text was slowly getting better, but still had mistakes, and honestly it was funny to read it like that.
It was sort of like dyslexia though, at least until you leveled your reading skill.
Still one of my favorite games of all time though. Very excited for KCD 2!
KCD does a million things right.
Illiteracy is one.
I also had a soft spot for the treasure maps.
It was so fun to go treasure hunting while having no gps map-marker showing where the treasure was hidden, but you had to use these hand drawn sketches that weren't all that precise.
I also liked how the game handled food, drink and sleep. Like when Henry got sleepy he would start dozing off, which would be a major encumberance when you're trying to do anything at all.
Also food would grant bonuses and some healing, but you can't eat an indefinite amount of food before you get full, and being too full gave significant debuffs.
The way clothes and armour worked was also very logical and great. Some clothes are flashy and good for making a good impression during social interactions.
Others make you less noticeable, and not just in the sense of physical camouflage but also in a social sense that you just look like a random peasant that people don't take notice of.
@@sevenproxies4255You might like Red Dead Redemption 2
That is a very metal opening to a video game with a 5 year old protagonist
average first grader in OHIO
I know right? it was begging for a horror soundtrack
Kinda reminds me of the Mother series, but way more violent lol
The ad copy immediately popped in my head: "Surviving the Apocalypse is Child's Play" 🤣
"Really Tim, another post-apocalyptic game..." I can guarantee you that nobody thought this.
You can't really have a game without some kind of end to structured society. What's the game office job 3?
@@jeremyscungio16 You don't necessarily need an end to structured society, you just usually have your character acting outside of it. That can be due to a collapse, or just cuz they're criminals, or they're living somewhere where the regular rules don't apply.
"Office Job 3" games are also kinda thriving as well tbh, Stardew and the cozy games, Power Wash sim and the satisfying games.
@@LikeACroutonthe Dungeon Master's Guide of 3.5e dnd has a great description on how this works
In the overworld, or general society, you'll still have laws, culture, religion, etc.
But once you stray off the path, or enter the dungeon, the rules change. That's why a lawful good paladin is in the right to nearly indiscriminately slay cultists in their "dungeon", but has to be more careful of his behavior elsewhere.
It's not always applicable, and I probably did a terrible job of explaining it, but the idea behind it has always been really intrigueing to me
Whats an IP bro?
@@jeremyscungio16 Wagecage escape: wrath of the cage 3
One of the more annoying aspects of many AAA modern games is not trying new things with new IPs. I love new IPs and wish they were propped up more than the 70th call of duty.
That's where the money is, in all aspects of culture. Want a new adventure movie IP? Nope - here's Indiana Jones 6
If you want to support new IPs, buy and support indie games if you aren't already.
@@JediFan421 THIS.
Same. Even if your new IP is bad or not very thought through, there's still value in the fact that you set out to make something new.
Instead of just trying to ride the coat tails of someone elses IP.
Or the worst transgression of all: taking someone elses IP, changing it and bastardizing it beyond recognition.
Sadly we've seen a lot of the latter kind lately.
@@JediFan421I do when something interesting comes up.
My favourite indie game has to be the survival horror game Darkwood by the small Polish dev team Acid Wizard.
With that said: for a long time it felt like indie games did nothing but walking simulators and 2d scrollers with dark and edgy Tim Burton-esque graphics, and this lack of originality was a big turn off.
Wow, Tim... You're a great story teller
Also, In Kindom Come: Deliverance. You start the game illiterate and can slowy become literate. I loved that mechanic, it genuinely felt like a couldnt read and was actually slowly learning.
Yes but in KCD you play as an adult peasant in a relatively civilized land. There's still infrastructure and tutors etc out there that can teach you to read. Not the same scenario as the one in Tim's story, where the kid is on his own in an apocalypse, and never learned how to read beforehand, and probably never will
In Quake 4, alien text turns into English when the player character gets an alien neural implant.
My main takeaway from this video is that I'm 5.
Its never too early to start game development!
ELI5
Because you’re five - remember you’re five.
Now I’m illiterate??
"explain it to me like I'm 5"
Tim: "say no more"
I really want to see a trend of Tim performing complex actions in his thumbnails with video titles that feel like they shouldn’t match
I really want Tim to take up stock photo modelling as a hobby.
Is that a sleeping dog I hear this morning?
"I tell people about only using amnesia once"
Come onnnn Tim, just admit you gave Robert Kurvitz career advice :P
I’m in the bathroom listening to Tim talk and I hear breathing. For a second I got some horror vibes. “Is someone breathing? Wtf is that? Ohhhh must be a dog of camera”. I didn’t know the breathing was coming from Tim’s video lmfao
its soo distarcting when you notice it lol sleepy dog
@@rrrrthats4rs why, did he do multiple amnesia's? lmao
I was like, is there iron lung in the background 😂
I'm developing my own IP and I'm following your guidance on setting, story, and system mechanics. These videos are incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.
There is a game I played called Heart of Darkness where you played a kid trying to find his dog in an alien dimension, and it had some really gnarly death animations. That said it was the mid 90s and idk how well it sold.
i remember those shadowy bastards
Off the top off my head I think it sold platinum on PS at the very least.
I remember it. The game was in dev for 6+ years, started in 1992 , released in 1998. So what started as state of the art pixel graphics supported by rendered cutscenes and backgrounds was outdated heavily but the graphical progress at that time. The screen resolution was 256*192, which was a "who even does that?" at that time. You can see fragments of that history in reviews saying "the game runs but it's only using 80% of my screen" because no monitor since ages supports below 320*240.
Thanks to the retro revival it would seem less dated now than it was at the time of release.
Tim talking about games with child deaths made me think of Heart of Darkness as well. It had positively sadistic death animations at times - worse, even, than Limbo despite the colourful themes. It was the one game that I felt "got me" when I was 12 yo. There was no pandering, only a authentic understanding of the mind of a 12 yo boy. We used to draw similar gnarly deaths in the margins of our notebooks at school, and here suddenly we had a game about all about those kind of sketchbook deaths, lol.
A 20 minute Tim video! Great way to start my morning!
absolutely
18:54 minute video
@@Knight-PaladinEleanor paladin spell-checker lol
"did you ever play limbo?"
Ha. That was exactly what I was thinking before you mentioned it.
there was Heart of Darkness way before limbo
Question:
In Fallout 1, Harold’s story about his expedition into Mariposa military base mentions about 4 people for the expedition. Harold, Richard Grey, a name I’m blanking on, and Mark. After one or two other people got killed, Mark was wounded, so he went up to the surface. In the vat room, Harold was knocked by the crane by the vat. Richard Gray fell into the vat while Harold fell to the side of the vat and knocked unconscious.
Somehow, Harold woke up later on the surface with no memory as to how he got there. So, did Mark go back to get him? We know Grey didn’t know that Harold even survived, so it had to be Mark that dragged him out of there.
Was it Mark that dragged Harold out of Mariposa? Did the original team have any plans for Mark returning in a future game? Am I just looking too deep into this?
This is a burning question of mine that I hope you can answer.
Do you or have you ever felt pressure, internally or externally, while making a game to live up to your past creations? How do you deal with it? As a musician I always end up comparing new songs to what I feel our best song is and I'm curious if other creatives experience the same.
Really happy I stumbled across your channel!
This should have a horror vibe, because a child would be terrified in these circumstances
Traumatized for life.
@@koalabrowniethe short one you will have
I will repeat myself. You are great story teller.
That child's saturday was very captivating.
Love the idea of developing that hiding skill as a child.
Like maybe the first time you need to hide from something, there is a flashback to playing hide and seek with your family, and the tutorial area has something that looks like an obviously perfect hiding place, but once you go there it switches point of view to your mum who laughs and points out that you have to hide your feet when you stand behind curtains or something to that effect. Then suddenly you're back in the room you were in originally and all of the places that looked like great hiding spots are now obviously terrible.
Love this idea. This concept has tons of potential.
Question for Tim!
The current state of game development is that games take too much time to develop.
In the past, it was possible to make a game in couple of years (Fallout 2 - 9 months, GTA: San Andreas - 2 years)
Now it takes more than one console generation (Fallout 4 - 5 years, GTA 6 - i hope only 7 years)
I understand that players want more with each game, better graphic, increased scale. But it is going crazy. How one programmer is able to be in a company for just one full development cycle?
What is your take on this issue? Will it change in the future? Will large developments be unsustainable in the future? Will indie games conquer the scene? Will big companies go bankrupt?
Thanks a lot
games taking too much time to develop is a AAA problem and a management problem. those same companies could make games in 2 years instead of 5. a large number of these games that took 4+ years and costed hunders of millions are also of lower quality than AA games that took 1 year and like 3 million too.
I'm not in the industry, so far from an expert, but I imagine a big part of it is also games lasting longer. GTA 6 didn't have to come out in 2 years because GTA 5 has been in continuous development instead, through GTA Online. Nobody really cares much for a Dota 3, when the second one isn't even in a completely "finished" state.
Between Tim and Thor at Pirates Software, I think they want me to make a game.
Sounds like Among The Sleep. I LOVED playing as a toddler in that game. It was so interesting to see what I could do. It mainly just prevented me from reaching shelves. LOL.
Your description of the intro painted a picture to me that was much like the intro of the Dawn of the Dead (2004) remake. And that's a good thing!
Limbo AND Inside. Both of them are so good
One thing I really like about you Tim is that when you share valuable knowledge and experience like this, I get this distinct impression that you basically hope it might influence someone to make a cool game that you'll enjoy.
Reciprocal altruism in action. 😄
Tim, I'm definitely adding you in the "Special Thanks" part of my games, if I ever manage to pull them off! I hope you get to play them, eventually!
Just discovered your channel after the fallout show reintroduced me into the fallout series. I grew up playing 1 and 2 and was hooked on the games. Being older I can appreciate the lore and the behind the scenes fascinating. Thank you for your work
I mean to say that it is fascinating to me 🤦♂️
The idea of the player being illiterate and slowly being able to decipher random words is actually really cool!
Kingdom Come Deliverance did something similar.
Also, Heaven's Vault.
Aselia the Eternal is probably the most striking example of this. The game throws the main character into a different world and everything is gibberish while you slowly learn the language. The voice acting is also done in this fantasy language, so the experience is very immersive.
Final Fantasy X did this with the Al Bhed language, you need to get a bunch of primers to completely decipher it. Although the use of Al Bhed in the game is not that prevalent, so it's not a big deal if you don't get it.
Thank you so much, Mr. Cain. You don't have to make these videos yet you took time out of your day to help people just getting started.
A neat idea -- that you may find is too adversarial to your original idea -- is how companions play a factor in your pitch. Say you meet an NPC that can teach you how to read a little but is only out for themselves, so if a situation becomes too dicey, they'll abandon you. Or say there's an NPC that teaches you how to drive a little except they're bad at it. These ideas might get shot down minute one, but the point is to show how a neat idea can be talked about and expanded on.
I love this concept. The vibe I get from the setting is Star Trek TOS S1 E8 "Miri", but like the origin story of that world from a child's perspective.
Just want to say thanks! I mostly do writing but have been scratching away at a game world and its nice to get such practical and experienced advice.
Scary stuff! 😨
Great video 👍🏻
Btw, the illiteracy stuff was neatly implemented in Kingdom Come Deliverance. Great game, btw.
"You go to the one place where you ever felt safe, school"
And this is how we know it's a fantasy game!
I love this 5-year-old approach and the limitations that come from that. I have an idea currently that is also based on limitations, but of different sort. I haven't really been able to put it into a story or any detail yet, but this is actually a really great video to see for me. Also, I just love how you explain things, it's informative but also fun and funny.
Damn it Tim, make it already. I love this video where you put into practice the principles set out in earlier vids. I'd be interested in how you'd apply the pillars 'exercise' (for want of a better word) for Post Apoc. Kid.
i'm 38 and i've been trying to be a good writer all my life, still feels like I have so much to learn, where to start the story has been a 15 year journey for me, but i think i have a great opening now :)
Interesting idea, "Among the sleep" loosely comes to mind
You know Tim, I might not even need it but the fact that you're willing to do it on your own free time just makes you a treasure of a person.
Awesome getting an insight into early setting and design concepting. Thanks for sharing one of your fleshed out ideas to the world Tim, that's very generous! Have a great weekend-and walk your dog and give him a treat he's a goodboi!
a cinematic as a pitch sounds awesome
Going through all this man's videos and slamming the like button ! Thank you for your videos Tim the insight you give is amazing cant express it in enough words that TH-cam will allow !
Thank you Tim, this is one of my favourite videos.
Trying too get a new project into a playable state, been working on the conceptual design for quite some time.
Allot of what was discussed is relevant too many parts of a project.
thank you for this. at the perfect time when i finally thought of an IP/premise for a game; been banging my head for something i like for years now. i dont even know how to start on this but you gave me some great ways to make it a whole lot more interesting right off the bat. that game with the 5 year old would be awesome to play by the way. sounds dope
In the book publishing world, what you'd say to an agent (or what an agent might say to a publisher) is that your book is a "standalone with series potential" which could be language a potential game publisher might enjoy; regarding your point at 13:00
The idea of the listening to the news and not understanding as a kid is a cool idea, the gibberish idea when watching the news made me think of the Charlie Brown and went the adults talk
Enjoy your weekend, Tim!
This was an interesting watch. Thank you for sharing !
Love these videos, Tim. Wanted to say thank you for taking the time to talk to us. appreciate everything you do man.
At first I was very curious why it was so important that the character was so young. But as you got into further details the lack of complex language skills, at that specific age range, while still having at least a semblance of potential independence makes for a very unique experience.
Tim you would make an excellent game design professor ahaha
Last time I was this early to a Tim video, I stayed up all night (I stayed up all night again). Interesting, unique game concept, cool stuff.
Very interesting concept! Love this video, it's Very informative. My mind now is crunching ideas
Havent finished the video yet but this sounds like a really solid premise for a book
Tim you should read "Anna" by Niccolo Ammaniti. Its an apocalypse story in a world where everyone is infected with a disease that kills them after they turn 13, so there are only children in the world. I know you are probably not actually pitching this game but still, its a good book!
Never walk away from Post apocalypse! Its the best setting-style
You should sell a course on game design Tim!
why would he do that?
@@arcan762 To inject some good design into the industry etc
@@lyptical7868 you mean this channel?
language/communication mechanics are fascinating. what i'm working on has a similar character premise (child-like "blank slate" making sense of a world) but in a totally different genre and setting. consequently, i end up with a different system than what seems like yours would have. like you described, the system design and mechanics naturally flow from and manifest based on the initial game premise.
Damn, this game sounds so interesting. I get a survival horror RPG vibes from it, which is a pretty unique combo but would totally work. The intro cinematic you described absolutely hooked me in, which I suppose was the whole point of it. I'm not a dev, I just like games and I like listening to your dev stories. But now I kinda hope some talented indie dev team "steal" this idea and actually makes it into a proper game. Well, maybe not steal it, but use it as an inspiration, cause if it's done right it could be absolutely amazing.
Love this idea! I've always thought that language skills were underused in RPGs. I also think it would be interesting to really start from level 1 (a kid) and progress from there (like a fallout 3 + Kingdom Come mashup).
20 Minute school session, so awesome.
Now I want to play that game! Thank you for the video sir! Always love these!
Very good video. This went through very similarly to how my friend approached me last year with the idea for a game. This is originally how I found your video as I started looking about game design documents.
She wanted to use one of my WIP comics to create a game since we worked on it together from time to time. For about 6 months I worked on the design document, the story was mostly written and aesthetically it looked solid enough. At least for the short amount of time we worked on it. It was going to be a cyberpunk story set in a post-(post?)apocalypse with a mankind that was grown past the initial destruction. It wasn't nuclear based, but a war devastating enough, and long enough that both society and the culture of the setting reflect a cold, militaristic society mixed in with the aggressive stylization of cyberpunk. Think something like AKIRA for the cities, and Mad Max for the destroyed cities and wastes.
Hi Tim, it’s us, everyone! Love the sleepy dog background sound 😊
I think when considering showing child death in a game it is important to ask yourself "What does this add?". If the goal of a scene is to show how brutal and unforgiving a world is then make sure the scene supports that, and does not distract from the goal. If the goal is to just be edgy and show child death then maybe think about if that goal adds anything to the overall goal of the game. I think edgelord stuff got way too popular in the mid 2000's to the early 2010's that pubs are just so weary of anything that could be considered edgelord. Tragedy can either be an impactful story device or it can just be a way to add shock value. Impactful stories tend to be remembered.
Very important and worth mentioning.
If you haven't played I highly recommend Kingdom Come Deliverance, Tim! You basically start out as a medieval peasant who can't tie his shoelaces and have to work on your skills gradually by using them. There is a sequel coming very very soon. I'm sure you would love it!
Everyonee knows what's coming GTA: You Are 5. I really enjoyed this.
4:00 I liked Fallout 4 where I could play the opening so I could immerse myself more in the character from before the world got destroyed and think of how the character would act in the wasteland based on how he was before the bombs dropped but I guess that could be achieved by a cinematic too but that cinematic would be too long I think.
Also, Fallout 3's start as a baby was brilliant, imho
@@UlissesSampaio yeah an opening to a game is great so the player can connect more to a character and understand their motives, but a cinematic would maybe be too long for the average gamer who would maybe like it more that they can play themselves instead of watching a cinematic for a couple of minutes.
@marijn8057 indeed, I'm not a fan of cinematics. I much prefer the Skyrim way where you are in control 99% of the time
A neat look behind the curtain Tim
Man that was great! Love every second of it!
Great thumbnail! I love hearing your process, and your dog snoring is so cute!
I’d love to see more discussion on choosing the right hook! “Evocative” is a good criterion to add.
I know you’ve talked about setting extensively, and hook is probably downstream from there. I actually started my game premise from the hook and feel I’m still paying the price of figuring out my setting. (Or maybe figuring out the setting is hard no matter how you slice it.)
Love that idea of having an evocative hook
Love it Tim, you are a gem! We love tuning into your videos. Absolutely, golden content my friend! 👍
Oh man, this concept makes me wish you WERE making this game!
I know Tim would never openly criticize the direction Bethesda took Fallout, but listening to all these videos, damn. I think they couldn't miss the mark harder if they tried.
Oh, what a coincidence that I just started work on my own "IP" aka a new world for my players to play in tabletop. This should be helpful!
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS IDEA FOR A GAME. I also think it would be cool if you had a weapons skill but you had to learn it to wield better things. You start only being able to wield the most childish weapons (like a stick for example). But then you slowly learn more avout the world and work your way up to slingshots, to more technical things like bb guhs or a lighter with some hairspray, maybe even a bow and arrow or basic firearms and blades in the later stages if the games.
First off, thank you for the guidance on developing IP... Also I enjoyed the cinematic you described... I've typically disliked it when games start with an opening cinematic (with some exceptions, like games whose mechanics I'm primed to enjoy based on previous experience with the genre), but after listening to you speak Tim, I realize that maybe the issue isn't with cinematics as an implementation but rather those individual games' execution of a cinematic... if I played a game with the cinematic you described I believe I would be engaged... So thank you for the bonus nugget of insight.
Iv read a bunch of Manga that start in the same way, some have the sibling as 'evil' and some as a spirit or dream. It evokes strong emotions and something a lot of people can relate to, lots of options of what to do after.
An interesting idea for an IP. I think such game would really need some kind of sanity meter. Even just the events in the opening cinematic would probably traumatize the poor five year old for life. And then trying to survive in such world would probably continuously tried his sanity which could also be tied into how much of a civilized past he would be able to keep and not becoming a small monster himself. It could be pretty complex.
Love the thumbnails. I keep inspecting them ever since you mentioned you pick the wackiest one (paraphrased)
I'd Love it if you could talk more about Outer Worlds creation? Are working on different engines hard? How different was Making Outer Worlds compared to Fallout? They have similar aspects but are also very different!
Good morning, Tim!
You managed to hook me as far as I got a vision of how I'd like make game like that before the 12 minute mark had passed.😅
Though I'd usually would prefer a realistic 3D game for something like this. I did go straight to an isometric 32X or PC Engine sort of style in my head. Could be in part the Saturday morning cartoon setting that made gravitate towards that though. 🙃
Thank you Tim! This video brought many insights to the table. - Everyone
Your whole idea here reminds me a lot of this old science fiction show that J.Michael Stracynsky made a few decades ago (the guy who made Babylon 5). Sean Astin was in. It was a post-apocalyptic setting where there was some virus or something that killed *everyone* above a certain age, leaving children to rebuild everything. IIRC it starts about 10 years after the apocalypse, so there are already some crude societies and settlements built up, but it's still largely anarchic.
Was a pretty fun show, but it kinda fizzled out after the first season.
I was totally thinking limbo while you were describing this.
There was an idea I had, was originally for a webcomic but I wonder if it would work better as a game
Sort of similar in quite a few ways but you've rejuvenated my enthusiasm for it, I'll need to get back to learning unreal
This sounds like the nightmares I used to have as a child. Weirdly accurate. Also, Telltale's walking dead 2.
Another great video, thanks Tim.
It sounds similar to Tell Tales' The Walking Dead but leaving the child more alone which sounds harder to work around.
Great explanation for developing you own IP. The idea is kind of brilliant and unique. It's interesting as I was listening I kept thinking about the concept of being a child in a game and how unique that was. No other game does that. Then you mentioned Limbo at the end (great game BTW) and I realized, oh yeah, that was one. I was immersed in the idea of playing as a child so much I forgot about those other games. Please do more of these. They just such great seeing inside your brain.
Perfect timing Tim!
Tim should check out the game Tunic. It's based entirely around the fact that most in-game text including the tutorials are in a fake alphabet and you have to infer from pictures and context.
Once again a great video, thanks Tim. Don't know why, but it made me wonder what a game designed by Tim Cain and Hideo Kojima would be like...
I love this idea. It's a lot like "A Quiet Place" if you removed the adults and any exposition. It is AMAZING. Too bad you won't make it!
That "let's get into it" mini tangent made me laugh out loud ahahahah
I needee this laugh, it's been a terrible day so far, so thanks Tim ❤
The game sound great. There should be a creativity skill. Basically crafting but with childlike tools and ideas
Holy shit, Tim! That is one scary-ass beginning! I love it! 😶🌫
Reminds me of some LitRPG settings. Starting as a kid would be interesting.
Some of the downsides of the character being a kid would be negated by the player being older and knowing stuff, so it would be interesting to see how designers overcome that (i.e. making the words on signs and stuff be a bunch of random, incoherent symbols to mimic illiteracy).
Your the man tim and your IP for fallout is one of the most amazing stories ever told! God bless you and thank you sir!
You have convinced me that it is good to avoid sequels.